Determining What Animals a Moon Druid Has Seen

[SteelArcana]

Something that has always bothered me about rolling a Circle of the Moon Druid is the concept that you have to have seen the Beast you intend to wildshape into. Particularly, some of the higher CR beasts are somewhat exotic, being dinosaurs.

My concern about playing the subclass would be a DM ruling that I "haven't seen these creatures and they don't exist in this setting", effectively gimping the subclass. Though I would establish this information before rolling a druid, this is something I could see happening quite a bit.

Personally if I was DMing I would either ignore this stipulation entirely or allow the player to cast polymorph on his party members to "see" new beasts.

Thoughts?

[GlenSmash!]

I just let the player determine what Beasts they have or haven't seen.

It's not worth me policing.

[GorogIrongut]

YMMV from DM to DM. So it would be better asking them than us.

That said, I tend to sit firmly in the camp of having all kinds and variants of animals in my worlds... So if you put forth the effort to go and find those creatures, then you are welcome to change into them no problem and with no malice on my part as the DM. I'm not going to stop you from finding the animal, but depending on it's level of exotic'ness, the level of effort to do so will increase.

As for Polymorph, I play it much the same. If you are unfamiliar with the creature, then how do you expect to be able to turn the target into it? Polymorph doesn't have the wild shape caveat, but it's only logical. What's to stop you from turning your party member into Barney instead of a full blown T Rex? Knowledge. The ability to understand what a T Rex really is.

I'm sure that's not the answer you really wanted, but I'm sure you'll find other people out there who disagree with me. *shrugs*

[MaxWilson]

Something that has always bothered me about rolling a Circle of the Moon Druid is the concept that you have to have seen the Beast you intend to wildshape into. Particularly, some of the higher CR beasts are somewhat exotic, being dinosaurs.

My concern about playing the subclass would be a DM ruling that I "haven't seen these creatures and they don't exist in this setting", effectively gimping the subclass. Though I would establish this information before rolling a druid, this is something I could see happening quite a bit.

Personally if I was DMing I would either ignore this stipulation entirely or allow the player to cast polymorph on his party members to "see" new beasts.

Thoughts?

Well, Xanathar's has some reasonable rules for determining what animals the druid has seen. Another approach would be to use Nature checks as some kind of proxy for how worldly the druid is and how many animals he's seen.

And at higher levels, technically the Polymorph spell can let you see arbitrary types of animals, because Polymorph has no "must have seen" requirement for some reason, so you can unlock wildshape forms by just casting Polymorph on yourself and then seeing yourself. It's kind of dumb though because e.g. how would you even know that there's such a thing as a T-Rex if you haven't ever seen or heard of one? Then again, how would you know that Humongous Squirrels don't exist? A good DM would be able to make up stats for a Humongous Squirrel on the spot, so instead of Polymorphing and then wildshaping into a T-Rex or Giant Ape, you'd wildshape into a Humongous Squirrel.

TL;DR forum culture focuses on MM creatures like Giant Apes and dinosaurs because that's what forumites all have in common. In play you'd probably wind up wildshaping into other high-CR beasts, but you'll have something fun to turn into no matter what.

[redwizard007]

I always ruled that PCs from a specific environment are familiar with all the creatures native to that environment. If you grew up in Chult then dinosaurs are an easy sell. Polar bears might be tough to justify.

At higher levels we can come to an understanding based on where your adventures have taken you, or research you have actively conducted (and run past the DM.) With no backstory? Make a high DC knowledge roll.

[SteelArcana]

YMMV from DM to DM. So it would be better asking them than us.

That said, I tend to sit firmly in the camp of having all kinds and variants of animals in my worlds... So if you put forth the effort to go and find those creatures, then you are welcome to change into them no problem and with no malice on my part as the DM. I'm not going to stop you from finding the animal, but depending on it's level of exotic'ness, the level of effort to do so will increase.

As for Polymorph, I play it much the same. If you are unfamiliar with the creature, then how do you expect to be able to turn the target into it? Polymorph doesn't have the wild shape caveat, but it's only logical. What's to stop you from turning your party member into Barney instead of a full blown T Rex? Knowledge. The ability to understand what a T Rex really is.

I'm sure that's not the answer you really wanted, but I'm sure you'll find other people out there who disagree with me. *shrugs*

The only issue that I can see with this approach is the druid not having level appropriate forms to wildshape into because they never get the opportunity to observe the appropriate beasts. This would detract from their abilities to a large degree. For example, at CR 3, you get to choose between a giant scorpion, killer whale and ankylosaurus. All three of those are somewhat exotic, and the second is completely useless unless you're in an aquatic campaign.

If you were DMing, how would you handle this?

[Lupine]

I'd handle it by letting players home-brew creatures to fit their needs. They'll have to check with me first, but player are pretty good about balance.

[MaxWilson]

The only issue that I can see with this approach is the druid not having level appropriate forms to wildshape into because they never get the opportunity to observe the appropriate beasts. This would detract from their abilities to a large degree. For example, at CR 3, you get to choose between a giant scorpion, killer whale and ankylosaurus. All three of those are somewhat exotic, and the second is completely useless unless you're in an aquatic campaign.

If you were DMing, how would you handle this?

By making up monsters on-demand when a player wants a new Polymorph form, and then using the DMG CR rules to calculate the CR for them to check if they are legal targets for Polymorph, because Polymorph unlocks wildshape.

The spell outright says, "The new form can be any beast whose Challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a Challenge rating)." You want to conjecture yourself a spider the size of semi-truck, I'll conjecture some stats for it and tell you if your Polymorph failed.

Ideally this would be done between game sessions to avoid disrupting the flow of the game, but if for some reason it only occurs to you just at this moment that you need to Polymorph into a mini-alligator, I am happy to oblige. That's what makes D&D better than a CRPG: infinite detail thanks to on-demand content creation from the DM.

[Hail Tempus]

I think it helps to think of the animals in the MM or elsewhere as sort of broad archetypes of beasts. So, a moon druid from an Australian-like setting isn't turning into a dire wolf, he's turning into some sort of marsupial predator that is similar to a dire wolf.

Similarly, you might not be polymorphing your party member into an actual T-Rex. The caster just envisioned some sort of huge carnivore with massive claws and teeth, and the T-Rex stat block is the best fit.

[stoutstien]

Everything but crag cats are ok at my tables. They better have said stat block Handy because Im not waiting more than a minute for them to find it.

[SteelArcana]

By making up monsters on-demand when a player wants a new Polymorph form, and then using the DMG CR rules to calculate the CR for them to check if they are legal targets for Polymorph, because Polymorph unlocks wildshape.

The spell outright says, "The new form can be any beast whose Challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's (or the target's level, if it doesn't have a Challenge rating)." You want to conjecture yourself a spider the size of semi-truck, I'll conjecture some stats for it and tell you if your Polymorph failed.

Ideally this would be done between game sessions to avoid disrupting the flow of the game, but if for some reason it only occurs to you just at this moment that you need to Polymorph into a mini-alligator, I am happy to oblige. That's what makes D&D better than a CRPG: infinite detail thanks to on-demand content creation from the DM.

So for instance, in the case they haven't seen any of the CR3 beasts in the monster manual, you'd let them do something to the effect of wildshaping into a "Giant Brown Bear" (as an example) and then infer the monster's statistics form other CR3 beasts/creatures?

That seems fair to me.

[GorogIrongut]

The only issue that I can see with this approach is the druid not having level appropriate forms to wildshape into because they never get the opportunity to observe the appropriate beasts. This would detract from their abilities to a large degree. For example, at CR 3, you get to choose between a giant scorpion, killer whale and ankylosaurus. All three of those are somewhat exotic, and the second is completely useless unless you're in an aquatic campaign.

If you were DMing, how would you handle this?

Honestly a lot of it would depend on what the player had seen. If, in their druidic duties, they'd spent a lot of time around Rocs... then in between sessions we would begin working on developmental stages up to a full-blown Roc. Because that's what they know. So you have a CR 3/4/5/6/etc. Roc. Almost as if they were building on their experiences and abilities.

If however, they'd spent their entire lives taking care of the aforementioned Roc'ery and they suddenly came up to me asking to make a Brontosaurus, I wouldn't feel guilty about telling them no.

[MaxWilson]

So for instance, in the case they haven't seen any of the CR3 beasts in the monster manual, you'd let them do something to the effect of wildshaping into a "Giant Brown Bear" (as an example) and then infer the monster's statistics form other CR3 beasts/creatures?

That seems fair to me.

Well, that's what I'd do for Polymorph. Wildshape is a special case because according to the books they have to have seen it. Would I make them jump through the Polymorph hoop or just upscale the Brown Bear? Personally I'd lean towards just letting them upscale the Brown Bear, exactly as you suggest, but it's a minor rules change that I don't feel that strongly about so I'd probably ask the table to vote on it, knowing that it would also affect NPC druids.

[Hail Tempus]

Well, that's what I'd do for Polymorph. Wildshape is a special case because according to the books they have to have seen it. Would I make them jump through the Polymorph hoop or just upscale the Brown Bear? Personally I'd lean towards just letting them upscale the Brown Bear, exactly as you suggest, but it's a minor rules change that I don't feel that strongly about so I'd probably ask the table to vote on it, knowing that it would also affect NPC druids. My wife played a moon druid with a wolf focus. Whenever she unlocked a new CR for her wildshape, we just used the monster creation rules in the DMG to create a CR4 or whatever wolf. We gave them each a new name, like "Alpha Dire Wolf", or "Wolfmother". It worked great, because it let her stay with the theme and not have to wild shape into a mastodon or whatever. I think most druid players will stick with a handful of animals throughout much of their playing career.

[GlenSmash!]

I like to think that Circle of the Moon druids could meet other Druids from other lands in their circle meetups and show off their varying wildshapes.

[Seekergeek]

My last moon druid was a researcher - every time we hit a city or met a scholar or sage he'd be looking for tomes on the natural beasts of the world. My DM was on board for that approach and we treated it a lot like a wizard coming across new spells for their spell books.

[Seekergeek]

My wife played a moon druid with a wolf focus. Whenever she unlocked a new CR for her wildshape, we just used the monster creation rules in the DMG to create a CR4 or whatever wolf. We gave them each a new name, like "Alpha Dire Wolf", or "Wolfmother". It worked great, because it let her stay with the theme and not have to wild shape into a mastodon or whatever. I think most druid players will stick with a handful of animals throughout much of their playing career.

This is a pretty fun idea. I am going to try and use this next time I play a druid.

[GorogIrongut]

My last moon druid was a researcher - every time we hit a city or met a scholar or sage he'd be looking for tomes on the natural beasts of the world. My DM was on board for that approach and we treated it a lot like a wizard coming across new spells for their spell books.

Exactly. Whenever I play a druid, I go out of my way to frequent menageries or zoos. It's a smorgasboard of new Wild Shaping.