Is Haste a trap for 20 EK Fighter?

[TyGuy]

The break even point for DPR is after 4 rounds including the round used to cast Haste. So it takes some foresight to use effectively. And there's utility outside of the extra attack to consider.

But at level 20 play what are the chances of breaking concentration and losing a full turn? Things can swat your PC pretty hard at high CRs and even with war casting and +11 con save there's still a not insignificant risk involved when going up against things that can hit for over 30 damage and/or make several attacks on you.

What's your experience with haste in tier 4 or lvl20?

[stoutstien]

In upper tiers of play the haste additional action is better used for anything other than one weapon attack unless the target cannot fight back which it's probably Overkill. You have double movement and disengage and you doubt your trying to tank with haste up so don't get hit.

[Rerem115]

Haste isn't just a DPR enhancer; it buffs movement and AC. With that in mind, you're going to be able to chase down faster foes and be harder to hit (marginally; high-CR opponents can reliably hit high level PCs, unless they have significant magic item support), so looking at it from a pure DPR standpoint is disingenuous. Also, at some tables, you can cast it before combat starts, negating that particular penalty.


As with all things, look at it situationally. Is combat expected to go more than 4-5 rounds, given the opposition? Do you need the extra movement to either chase down or run away from your foes? Is the bonus to AC going to be relevant; does it make the dragon's chance of hitting you go from 'guaranteed' to only 'probable', or does it make it so that the mob of archers can only hit you on a natural 20?

[noob]

The lethargy drawback seems to be too much problematic for the spell to be worth it even if you could cast it as a free action.(if you assume you can fail a concentration check)
Unless you are out of the classical situation (death matches where your opponent is ready to sacrifice their lives heroically for the cause of good) in which case being faster is awesome.

[Yakk]

Can you fail concentration? Often.

Can enemies dispel? Easily.

EK loses 4 attacks to gain 1 per round (including the current round). Note that you also get a bonus action attack from it (improved war magic). So it costs you a bonus action and 2 attacks on the turn you activate it.

[TyGuy]

Can you fail concentration? Often.

Can enemies dispel? Easily.

EK loses 4 attacks to gain 1 per round (including the current round). Note that you also get a bonus action attack from it (improved war magic). So it costs you a bonus action and 2 attacks on the turn you activate it.

That's cool, I overlooked that. Making the break-even only 3 turns potentially. Still sounds like it's a bit too risky from the comments. I didn't even think of the reliability of dispel magic...

I think I'll drop it from the list.

Thanks gang.

[sithlordnergal]

So, it depends on a few things:

1) How hard are you to hit? At level 20, if +2 is just getting you to a 22 AC then there's no point in snagging it. But if you're like my AL Paladin it could actually make a difference and make it so even things with a +16 to hit need a nat 20 to hit you.

2) How many effects are you able to stack onto a hit? If each hit does an additional 2d6 from a flametongue you're wielding, or you have a weapon that can apply status effects of some sort when you hit a target, then getting another attack is more than worth it.

3) How much does movement matter as a whole? Going from a 30ft speed to 60 can be a huge boon in the right circumstances, but not every circumstance.

If you think the above reasons will come up pretty often, keep Haste. If not, then it won't be worth it. Cause at level 20, even if you make the saving throw you still might have a Con save of 25 or more.

[CheddarChampion]

Not a trap option.

If you're going with the AC tank eldritch knight haste is good. Your AC is 21 base, +2 from haste, +5 from shield. 27 AC is often considerably better than 25 - an enemy with +10 to hit goes from a 30% hit rate to a 20% hit rate, +14 goes from 50% to 40%.

For the GWM/SS EK, an extra attack is an extra attack. Haste, in this instance, is better against low AC foes than Greater Invisibility. If my math is correct, at a 80% or greater chance of hitting (after applying -5/+10) haste is better than advantage offensively. With a +2 weapon, that's AC 13. Or archery style and a +2 weapon, AC 15. Hmm...
Okay, Greater Invisibility is usually better. But Haste costs only a 3rd level slot, gives extra mobility, and you get the extra action to attack on the same round you cast.

4*(((1-x)*x)+x)=5x -> solve for x as the accuracy, x = 0.75. At 75% accuracy, haste and GI are equal in extra damage output.
This formula equates the number of hits you expect to connect in a round, where (((1-x)*x)+x) is the accuracy at advantage.
(I did not factor in the extra damage from critical hits.)
You can apply this comparison even if you aren't using GWM/SS.

[MaxWilson]

Not a trap option.

If you're going with the AC tank eldritch knight haste is good. Your AC is 21 base, +2 from haste, +5 from shield. 27 AC is often considerably better than 25 - an enemy with +10 to hit goes from a 30% hit rate to a 20% hit rate, +14 goes from 50% to 40%.

For the GWM/SS EK, an extra attack is an extra attack. Haste, in this instance, is better against low AC foes than Greater Invisibility. If my math is correct, at a 80% or greater chance of hitting (after applying -5/+10) haste is better than advantage offensively. With a +2 weapon, that's AC 13. Or archery style and a +2 weapon, AC 15. Hmm...
Okay, Greater Invisibility is usually better. But Haste costs only a 3rd level slot, gives extra mobility, and you get the extra action to attack on the same round you cast.

Since we're talking spell slots instead of peak effectiveness...

On the other hand, Blur is only a 2nd level slot, and it would drop that +10 hit rate from 30% to 9%, and the +14 would go from 50% to 25%. You wouldn't get the offensive bonus but you'd get even more defensive bonus, with no risk of losing a round when the spell drops for whatever reason.

(Blur and Protection From Evil go together--the things that are immune to Blur due to blindsight/truesight tend to be hindered by Protection From Evil, with the exception of dragons.)

Also, if you don't want to spend a non-abj/evoc spell known, you could pick up Darkness (evocation) + Alert feat instead. You've got advantage + disadvantage = nothing to attack enemies, whereas they've just got disadvantage to attack you (no offsetting advantage because you have Alert). The combination is effectively the same thing as Blur, but with an initiative bonus on top.

[CheddarChampion]

Fair Points

Fair points.
Maybe less so with darkness + alert, cause that costs a feat on top of it all... but most spellcasters can't see you and thus can't target you directly because of how spells need you need to see your target(s)... hmm...

[MaxWilson]

Fair points.
Maybe less so with darkness + alert, cause that costs a feat on top of it all... but most spellcasters can't see you and thus can't target you directly because of how spells need you need to see your target(s)... hmm...

Yeah, but the thing is, we're talking level 20 fighters here, and it's a feat many Fighters want anyway for the initiative bonus.

I agree that Haste isn't a trap BTW, I just wanted to expand on even cheaper alternatives. I would only use Haste if I were more interested in the Dash/Disengage/Hide options than in attacking. Haste is great for mobility. (So are horses.)

Edit: the two big downsides of Darkness are negating opportunity attacks, and negating advantage from other sources like prone or restrained enemies. Negating opportunity attacks is also sometimes an advantage, and Darkness can also grant advantage on ranged attacks too depending on whether your DM interprets the rule text (it's a highly contentious subject which has had its own thread many times--anyone who is interested should just read the relevant text for Darkness and heavy obscurement and then ask your DM how they will rule).

[sithlordnergal]

Since we're talking spell slots instead of peak effectiveness...

On the other hand, Blur is only a 2nd level slot, and it would drop that +10 hit rate from 30% to 9%, and the +14 would go from 50% to 25%. You wouldn't get the offensive bonus but you'd get even more defensive bonus, with no risk of losing a round when the spell drops for whatever reason.

(Blur and Protection From Evil go together--the things that are immune to Blur due to blindsight/truesight tend to be hindered by Protection From Evil, with the exception of dragons.)

Also, if you don't want to spend a non-abj/evoc spell known, you could pick up Darkness (evocation) + Alert feat instead. You've got advantage + disadvantage = nothing to attack enemies, whereas they've just got disadvantage to attack you (no offsetting advantage because you have Alert). The combination is effectively the same thing as Blur, but with an initiative bonus on top.

Well, there is one danger with Blur. At higher levels, more things have Truesight or Blindsight, and most monsters with a +14 to hit have some sort of Blindsight. Blur doesn't work against Blindsight, Truesight, or ways to see through illusions. As a result, the disadvantage it normally gives becomes pretty useless. At least with Haste you can take the Dodge Action, then make a single attack from Haste.

[CheddarChampion]

How about, speaking generally:
There are spells more effective or more efficient for the things that haste gives you.
Better mobility options, better defensive options, better weapon-attack-based offensive options... there's even better options for two at a time.
But haste is the full package (and you get the extra action on the same turn you cast it).

[MaxWilson]

Well, there is one danger with Blur. At higher levels, more things have Truesight or Blindsight, and most monsters with a +14 to hit have some sort of Blindsight. Blur doesn't work against Blindsight, Truesight, or ways to see through illusions. As a result, the disadvantage it normally gives becomes pretty useless. At least with Haste you can take the Dodge Action, then make a single attack from Haste.

That's why I said it goes well with Protection From Evil, which IS abjuration and readily available to EKs. Most things with blindsight or truesight are affected by Protection From Evil, with the notable exception of dragons.

[TheUser]

Step 1: Ring of Spell Storing
Step 2: Find Familiar and equip it with the ring.
Step 3: Haste without eating into your action economy

[MaxWilson]

Step 1: Ring of Spell Storing
Step 2: Find Familiar and equip it with the ring.
Step 3: Haste without eating into your action economy

But now it's eating into your Spell Storing economy, which is equally precious. And if your familiar loses its concentration or dies you still lose a round.

Let the familiar concentrate on Greater Invisibility instead. (Also, get the familiar its own familiar.)

[Yunru]

Yes it's a trap. At level 20 the Fighter should never be casting Haste on themselves. Either another party member should or just hire a spell caster.

[Lupine]

Another aspect is if the fighter takes the mobile feat. With that, his four attacks allow easy minion destruction.