OOTS #1186 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Fyraltari]

I forgot Roy was drunk for a moment. But "he's a real boy now’’, got me good.

[Peelee]

I like Commodore Scarf's command style.

[Eldritch Queen]

Those were the best directions for the North Pole I've ever heard.

[Frozenstep]

Drunk Roy is fun. I'm glad he was able to make it up the ladder without incident, actually. After all, Roy has solved his "losing the sword" problem, but he still hasn't solved his "falling to his death" problem.

Also, next page kind of has to be the book finisher, doesn't it?

[Peelee]

Drunk Roy is fun. I'm glad he was able to make it up the ladder without incident, actually. After all, Roy has solved his "losing the sword" problem, but he still hasn't solved his "falling to his death" problem.

To be fair, Durkon solved that problem for him.

[Fyraltari]

Drunk Roy is fun. I'm glad he was able to make it up the ladder without incident, actually. After all, Roy has solved his "losing the sword" problem, but he still hasn't solved his "falling to his death" problem.

Yes, he has, Durkon is a real boy now.

EDIT: Godsdammit, Peelee!

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, the geographic North Pole is also the magnetic North Pole. I'd wondered.

[PirateMonk]

Wait, are the magnetic north pole and the true north pole in the same place in this world? If not, which one is Kraagor's tomb closest to?

[understatement]

Somehow I'd pay to see drunk Roy trying to fight whatever batch of monsters that will most likely attack the ship again. Or maybe not. Who knows.

[The Aboleth]

Drunk Roy is the most funny version of Roy.

It also seems that the more drunk Belkar gets, the more serious he gets. It's like their drunk selves are the others' sober selves!

Loved that Haley is taking charge here, too, at least to a small degree. Being the sober second-in-command of the Order comes in handy!

[Peelee]

Wait, are the magnetic north pole and the true north pole in the same place in this world? If not, which one is Kraagor's tomb closest to?
Stickworld doesn't gatekeep poles!:smallwink:

For reals, though, I dunno but probably.

Godsdammit, Peelee!
I do my best.:smallamused:

[Fyraltari]

So, the geographic North Pole is also the magnetic North Pole. I'd wondered.

Probably.

Bunch of lazy-ass gods, if you ask me.

[Schroeswald]

Probably.

Bunch of lazy-ass gods, if you ask me.

I'd say its that the gods who placed the different North Poles weren't as drunk as Thor usually is as opposed to laziness.

[Ornithologist]

I kinda wish Roy would drink more often... he gets way more interesting.

[Sniccups]

"Neither trains nor airships drive on roads!" might be my new favorite Belkar quote.

[brian 333]

Whoever said the Mechane uses a magnetic compass? It's a magical world, after all, and perhaps the most reliable direction- finders are magical.

Plus, Pinnochio references. Awesome.

[Sir_Norbert]

Nice punchline :P

[Frozenstep]

To be fair, Durkon solved that problem for him.

If you give a man a fish...:smallamused:

Speaking of which, I wonder if Belker's item of feather fall will come up again. Perhaps it'll be an echo of the last time Belker handed Roy a ring.

[Riftwolf]

Those were the best directions for the North Pole I've ever heard.

I once used in a short story that someone travelled north till even the compass lost its way. Not sure if that's comparable.

[Stabbey]

I got a big laugh from "the answer might surprise you".



Drunk Roy is fun. I'm glad he was able to make it up the ladder without incident, actually. After all, Roy has solved his "losing the sword" problem, but he still hasn't solved his "falling to his death" problem.

Also, next page kind of has to be the book finisher, doesn't it?

Maybe not the next page, but I imagine that the printer is looking at his watch and tapping his foot by now.

[littlebum2002]

Is this the first evidence we've had that the world is round?

[Peelee]

Is this the first evidence we've had that the world is round?
Wheeee!
No (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html).

[Fyraltari]

Is this the first evidence we've had that the world is round?

No. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

Also "pole" implies non-flatness.

Edit: Oh, come on!

[Edric O]

Alright, I'm calling it. The next strip will cut away to Team Evil.

[JumboWheat01]

I like easy directions when going someplace.

[danielxcutter]

...Is it just me, or is drunk Belkar smarter than drunk Roy?

Also Bandanna's way of describing the North Pole is hilarious.

Edit: Whee first page!

[KorvinStarmast]

I like Commodore Scarf's command style. I believe that Admiral Ascott's in charge now ... (heh, wasn't Scott a polar explorer? Yeah, I know, the other pole ... )

Oh, and isn't it usually Belkar, not Roy, who gives people cute nicknames?

[PirateMonk]

Whoever said the Mechane uses a magnetic compass? It's a magical world, after all, and perhaps the most reliable direction- finders are magical.

Plus, Pinnochio references. Awesome.

Yeah, this seems plausible. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/knowDirection.htm)

[Anitar]

I just noticed that everyone's breath is visible in the panels that they talk in. Nice touch.

[HandofShadows]

Death toll in the negative numbers isn't a phrase you hear that often. :smallcool:

[Fyraltari]

I just noticed that everyone's breath is visible in the panels that they talk in. Nice touch.
It's also visible when they aren't talking, as in panel 5.

Death toll in the negative numbers isn't a phrase you hear that often. :smallcool:

I still don't understand why people don't like my idea of merging the maternity ward and the Intensive Care Unit.

[Sian]

Roy needs to get a drinking problem ... much more entertaining, and Durkan would probably be able to supply ... Belkar should probably as well, as he's much more reliable and sensible when drunk

[Anarion]

Really nice seeing the ship again. And all the little signs of the climate (just noticing all the misted breath effects, I might be behind on that).

[JackRackham]

These last few strips have me wondering what the rest of the order would be like drunk.

We've seen drunk Haley, in addition to Roy and Belkar. My guesses for the others:

Elan: Acts drunker than he is.
Vaarsuvius: Acts exactly the same as they do sober.
Durkon: Is actually incapable of getting drunk.

Of course, Durkon's been in human lands so long, maybe he's (the Dwarven version of) a lightweight now.

[2D8HP]

That Beatrice is now "Captain Neckerchief" pleases me.

And so happy to see the Mechane and it's scrappy crew!

[AutomatedTeller]

I love that Belkar knows what a train sounds like, despite there being no evidence of trains in this world ;) Honestly, this entire comic was excellent - "I said might" ;)

[wolph42]

So its finally happening? They're moving to the last gate?

[Faramir]

Those were the best directions for the North Pole I've ever heard.

Exactly what I logged in to say :)

[Fyraltari]

I love that Belkar knows what a train sounds like, despite there being no evidence of trains in this world ;) Honestly, this entire comic was excellent - "I said might" ;)

Indeed, there is no such thing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html)

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Headed to the North Pole - and just in time for Christmas! :smallbiggrin:

[Dion]

So its finally happening? They're moving to the last gate?

Yep, just in time for the field repairs to fail and for that scarface guy to message them it’s time to hurry.

Or, maybe this is the strip where Tiamat explains what revenge *really* looks like.

Or, maybe TDO has been doing his homework, and isn’t just waiting around for RedCloak to figure it out.

Or... hmmm... any bets on the cliffhanger?

[Reboot]

Those were the best directions for the North Pole I've ever heard.

Pity they wouldn't work IRL, since Magnetic North (a) moves and (b) is quite some way south of True North.

[Resileaf]

...Is it just me, or is drunk Belkar smarter than drunk Roy?


He doesn't get smarter, he gets a stick shoved up his arse.

[BasiliskSoldier]

This is probably the funniest strip in quite some time, and it's nice to see the Mechane crew again.

[Reboot]

I love that Belkar knows what a train sounds like, despite there being no evidence of trains in this world ;)

No evidence, you say? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)

[137beth]

No evidence, you say? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)

Well, at least Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html) doesn't have magic trains!

[Onyavar]

Anyone else who had to read out Roys bubble out loud for themselves, with a slight slurriness, to laugh their behinds off some more?

"An eggshellent gwestion. The ansher might shurprise you."

[danielxcutter]

Anyone else who had to read out Roys bubble out loud for themselves, with a slight slurriness, to laugh their behinds off some more?

"An eggshellent gwestion. The ansher might shurprise you."

I have now. Thank you.

[NobleCuriosity]

I love that Belkar knows what a train sounds like, despite there being no evidence of trains in this world ;) Honestly, this entire comic was excellent - "I said might" ;)

I’m pretty sure there are other “anachronistic” idioms/references in Oots. For example,

in On the Origin of PCs, Haley tells Varsuvius that adventuring is “The HOV road to power—you need other people in your party, but once you’ve got that you just zip”—and HOV lanes are a pretty modern invention, and something we’ve seen no evidence of in Ootsland.

[danielxcutter]

I’m pretty sure there are other “anachronistic” idioms /references in Oots. For example,

in On the Origin of PCs, Haley tells Varsuvius that adventuring is “The HOV road to power—you need other people in your party, but once you’ve got that you just zip”—and HOV lanes are a pretty modern invention, and something we’ve seen no evidence of in Ootsland.

I mean, "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody".

[Larre Gannd]

Pity they wouldn't work IRL, since Magnetic North (a) moves and (b) is quite some way south of True North.

You’re no fun

[Windscion]

For all we know, they may not realize the difference between magnetic and rotation poles. Or care.

[Ruck]

...Is it just me, or is drunk Belkar smarter than drunk Roy?

I suspect but can't prove that Belkar has more experience getting drunk.

[danielxcutter]

I suspect but can't prove that Belkar has more experience getting drunk.

Well, in-comic the only times we've seen anyone drunk are a) the Azure City New Year festival(only Belkar and maybe Durkon) and b) the feast with Tarquin(Haley). So Belkar's ahead in terms of on-screen drunkness.

(Yes I know that's not quite what you mean but whatever)

[NobleCuriosity]

I mean, "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody".

I know, but then the same reasoning applies to the train references.

Also, I’m actually not digging Roy and Belkar’s drunken antics. I’m not sure why, it’s just not entertaining me that much.

Finally—I like what we see in the first two panels. Captain Bandanna illustrates that she knows how to delegate, and possibly earns a bit of respect from Andi too.

[Starscream]

Petition to make Roy always drunk?

And it feels like a book ending is right around the corner. Or around the page, as it were.

[Peelee]

Pity they wouldn't work IRL, since Magnetic North (a) moves and (b) is quite some way south of True North.

Well I'd certainly hope so! I'd have to lodge a complaint if it was anywhere north of True North.

[The MunchKING]

Well, in-comic the only times we've seen anyone drunk are a) the Azure City New Year festival(only Belkar and maybe Durkon) and b) the feast with Tarquin(Haley). So Belkar's ahead in terms of on-screen drunkness.

(Yes I know that's not quite what you mean but whatever)

He also tossed back a few in his solo comic...

[Rollin]

Trains do so drive on roads!

Okay, no, Belkar's right, they move on roads. If driven.

[Darkone]

I'm kind of impressed by Bandana's comment in the second panel. Just off the cuff saying that her crewmates should report to the person who knocked her unconscious and almost killed them all when necessary is both important as a clear statement of 'business as usual' and that Andi, despite treading on thin ice, should be relied on as mechanic.
It was the right decision, clearly, but saying it so readily and unprompted is impressive.

[Petrocorus]

I wonder what that line about fuel lines pressure may mean.
This is foreshadowing something.



No. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

Also "pole" implies non-flatness.

Edit: Oh, come on!



Indeed, there is no such thing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html)

Seriously, how do you all find the right page to quote in less than a minute?

[LadyEowyn]

I love that Belkar knows what a train sounds like, despite there being no evidence of trains in this world ;) Honestly, this entire comic was excellent - "I said might" ;)
Redcloak does mention “making the magical lightning-powered trains run on time” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html), but I’m betting it’s an anachronistic idiom since, as you point out, we’ve seen no evidence of trains.

Though if someone did introduce magic-powered industrialization, it would be Redcloak. He’s got the right combination of intelligence, scientific knowledge (he’s already introduced chemical warfare in pretty much its most Evil form), and practicality. It’s sheer good luck that he hasn’t hit upon the idea of summoning a uranium elemental yet.

[Jasdoif]

Redcloak does mention “making the magical lightning-powered trains run on time” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html), but I’m betting it’s an anachronistic idiom since, as you point out, we’ve seen no evidence of trains.Pretty sure it's an Eberron reference (https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Lightning_Rail).

[bc56]

For all we know, they may not realize the difference between magnetic and rotation poles. Or care.

That's fine.
If they don't know the difference, it's unlikely Serini did when she made the dungeon. If it's at the North Pole, it's almost definitely at the magnetic one, since it's easier to find.

[Dire Moose]

:elan: Ooh! Ooh! When we get to the North Pole, can I sit on Santa’s lap? Please?

[The Aboleth]

I wonder what that line about fuel lines pressure may mean.
This is foreshadowing something.


Maybe. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Dion]

Maybe. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

A big balloon shaped cigar with leaking fuel lines, you mean...

[The Aboleth]

A big balloon shaped cigar with leaking fuel lines, you mean...

I really think the point of that scene was to show the crew's relationship with Andi being normalized (because their Captain, very bluntly, pretty much said to do exactly that). I don't think the fuel lines bit was anything more than an excuse to get Andi into the scene and show the reader, "Bandana was serious when she told Andi she'd keep her aboard as long as she (Andi) stuck to her job."

Maybe I'm wrong. Only thing to do is wait and see.

EDIT: Also, the fuel lines aren't leaking. The question was whether or not to reduce pressure in the fuel lines, not fix a leak.

[Dion]

EDIT: Also, the fuel lines aren't leaking. The question was whether or not to reduce pressure in the fuel lines, not fix a leak.

Look, I’m just saying that Bandana’s clan violently pressured the fuel in this way, it’s not fuel’s fault if it leaks, ok?

[5crownik007]

Looking forward to seeing Team Evil again... I always want to see more Redcloak for some reason which I can't put my finger on. Maybe I just feel like his character arc's trajectory is most interesting...

[Ruck]

Well, in-comic the only times we've seen anyone drunk are a) the Azure City New Year festival(only Belkar and maybe Durkon) and b) the feast with Tarquin(Haley). So Belkar's ahead in terms of on-screen drunkness.

(Yes I know that's not quite what you mean but whatever)


He also tossed back a few in his solo comic...

We also know that Belkar used to get drunk with Buggy Lou (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html), and we know (from one of the prequels, I forget which, but I think there have been in-comic hints too) that Roy spent a lot more time at Fighter College studying than partying.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I like the casual reminder of Andi’s presence in the story. I suppose strictly speaking while the Order’s death toll was negative, it was not exactly a casualty-free operation. It’s nice to see actual Durkon interacting with the crew. And of course, Drunk Roy continues to amuse. I’m excited to see what the next strip has in store for us.

[Fyraltari]

Seriously, how do you all find the right page to quote in less than a minute?
I remember the title of some of the strips and search for one close to what I am looking for (in this case «*A wizard did it*» or «*If they pull a knife*») and do a ctrl+f on the archive pages and then I sweep through the pages manually. Alternatively, I remember roughly the numbers that match with a particular event and I skim through the titles looking for one that would fit the page I am looking for.

he’s already introduced chemical warfare in pretty much its most Evil form

Either I don’t understand what you are referring to or you don’t know much about chemical warfare.

[hamishspence]

I presume they are referring to the chlorine elemental:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html

[Emanick]

Either I don’t understand what you are referring to or you don’t know much about chemical warfare.

While phosgene, mustard gas and sarin gas are even worse than chlorine gas, I very much doubt that any of them exist in elemental form in the OOTSverse.

[Verappo]

I kind of love how consistently unimpressed Bandana has been with Roy throughout the book :smallbiggrin:. 6 years of "meh"

[Jannoire]

Pity they wouldn't work IRL, since Magnetic North (a) moves and (b) is quite some way south of True North.

Or Mr Giant built this world in a way that would allow for the magnetic north pole to be exactly at True North.
Also, magnetic south is located closer to true north than magnetic north is... That way the north point of a compass points north...


We also know that Belkar used to get drunk with Buggy Lou (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html), and we know (from one of the prequels, I forget which, but I think there have been in-comic hints too) that Roy spent a lot more time at Fighter College studying than partying.

It was Origin of PCs.

[FlawedParadigm]

He doesn't get smarter, he gets a stick shoved up his arse.

He's multiclassing Paladin???

[diremage]

These last few strips have me wondering what the rest of the order would be like drunk.

We've seen drunk Haley, in addition to Roy and Belkar. My guesses for the others:

Elan: Acts drunker than he is.
Vaarsuvius: Acts exactly the same as they do sober.
Durkon: Is actually incapable of getting drunk.

Of course, Durkon's been in human lands so long, maybe he's (the Dwarven version of) a lightweight now.

Elan: Turns "Invisible", runs through town. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html)
Vaarsuvius: Unlocks the universe-shaking, eldritch power of a humble tea cozy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)
Durkon: Picks a fight with a park, loses.

[Anansiil]

Lol, I might report my captain to HR for that quip lol.
North pole *grumbles* lol

[ijuinkun]

I suppose strictly speaking while the Order’s death toll was negative, it was not exactly a casualty-free operation.

True. Kendro died fighting the Likable Death Worm, but his friends cheered since his method of death assured his ticket to Valhalla. Also, Durkon and Minra did need to get Resurrected/Raised.

[Blatt]

Navigating to the North Pole is easy enough. Navigating away is hard, because every direction is south.

[goodpeople25]

Navigating to the North Pole is easy enough. Navigating away is hard, because every direction is south.
That's why you also use other navigation techniques like star charts.

There is no possible way that being at the north pole could ever mess that up.:smallbiggrin:

[Drascin]

...Is it just me, or is drunk Belkar smarter than drunk Roy?

His wisdom is so low that when he gets a minus from drinking he overflows into the high end of the scale. Like how in Civ 1 Ghandi's warlike score was so low that when you gave him an extra minus to warmongering he flipped to the other end of the scale and became a nuclear-toting psychopath.

[Bazounga]

Great! A dialogue between the two strongest accents in the comics!

It would have been a shame to lose such a nice occasion to write a totally off dialogue...

As a French, it took me a while getting it straight in my mind but it was totally worth it! :smallbiggrin:

[Jannoire]

His wisdom is so low that when he gets a minus from drinking he overflows into the high end of the scale. Like how in Civ 1 Ghandi's warlike score was so low that when you gave him an extra minus to warmongering he flipped to the other end of the scale and became a nuclear-toting psychopath.

You mean to tell me that this isn't based on accurate history?!

[Mad Humanist]

I have never before in my life wanted to get drunk, and certainly not to such a precise degree as to match the level of drunkenness Roy is holding right now. I would need to be drunk enough to spontaneously say what Roy is saying, but not so drunk I could not remember the lines.

[gerryq]

I'm kind of impressed by Bandana's comment in the second panel. Just off the cuff saying that her crewmates should report to the person who knocked her unconscious and almost killed them all when necessary is both important as a clear statement of 'business as usual' and that Andi, despite treading on thin ice, should be relied on as mechanic.
It was the right decision, clearly, but saying it so readily and unprompted is impressive.

Right or wrong, she already made that decision, so now she's just sticking to it.

[gerryq]

That's fine.
If they don't know the difference, it's unlikely Serini did when she made the dungeon. If it's at the North Pole, it's almost definitely at the magnetic one, since it's easier to find.


Easy to find within a few hundred kilometres, if Stickworld is like Earth. Close to the magnetic pole, the field points down rather than North, and it also (I learned today) wanders up to 80km from its mean position daily as a result of interactions with charged particles from the Sun.

Hopefully there will be geographical (or magical) cues when they get where they are going.

[gerryq]

While phosgene, mustard gas and sarin gas are even worse than chlorine gas, I very much doubt that any of them exist in elemental form in the OOTSverse.

What if Redcloak has found out how to make compoundentals?

[Fyraltari]

I presume they are referring to the chlorine elemental:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html

While phosgene, mustard gas and sarin gas are even worse than chlorine gas, I very much doubt that any of them exist in elemental form in the OOTSverse.

I had forgotten about the Chlorine Elemental, but still, shaping it into a monster that has to grab people to hurt them and can be killed is very tame compared to how chlorine was used in real life.

[Themrys]

His wisdom is so low that when he gets a minus from drinking he overflows into the high end of the scale. Like how in Civ 1 Ghandi's warlike score was so low that when you gave him an extra minus to warmongering he flipped to the other end of the scale and became a nuclear-toting psychopath.

I remain unconvinced. He molested Vaarsuvius when he was drunk on new year. The consequences considered, that wasn't a wise course of action, unless you mean to imply that he is a masochist and wanted to be subjected to explosive runes on a daily basis.

[Lord Torath]

as well, as he's much more reliable and sensible when drunkI think V would beg to differ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html).

[hroþila]

Belkar is drunk, not wasted. It's not a minor difference. :smallbiggrin:

[Emanick]

I have never before in my life wanted to get drunk, and certainly not to such a precise degree as to match the level of drunkenness Roy is holding right now. I would need to be drunk enough to spontaneously say what Roy is saying, but not so drunk I could not remember the lines.

In the unlikely event that you’re looking for advice on how to achieve that state without drinking... in my experience, simply staying up for a couple of days will roughly duplicate those effects. You’ll have to be in a socially stimulating, relatively relaxed setting, though.

[Cicciograna]

Maybe it's the familiarity with musical comedies that gives Belkar particular insights on the sounds produced by railway vehicles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html), but I'm not surprised that he knows the noise made by a train.

[Mad Humanist]

In the unlikely event that you’re looking for advice on how to achieve that state without drinking... in my experience, simply staying up for a couple of days will roughly duplicate those effects. You’ll have to be in a socially stimulating, relatively relaxed setting, though.

So basically you advising me to play through my entire boardgame collection (https://boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/slimy_asparagus?own=1&subtype=boardgame&ff=1). Of course finding people to participate could be difficult but in principle I like your thinking.

[Petrocorus]

I really think the point of that scene was to show the crew's relationship with Andi being normalized (because their Captain, very bluntly, pretty much said to do exactly that). I don't think the fuel lines bit was anything more than an excuse to get Andi into the scene and show the reader, "Bandana was serious when she told Andi she'd keep her aboard as long as she (Andi) stuck to her job."

You may be completely true. I just tend to believe that when a secondary character mention something potentially dangerous, this is foreshadowing.



EDIT: Also, the fuel lines aren't leaking. The question was whether or not to reduce pressure in the fuel lines, not fix a leak.
Overpressure lines are not that far away from becoming leaking lines.



Either I don’t understand what you are referring to or you don’t know much about chemical warfare.


I presume they are referring to the chlorine elemental:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html
I believe this is also about the Titanium Elementals (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html).
Because RC's got passing grades in Chem.


He's multiclassing Paladin???
Well, there was a Paladin of Slaughter in the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana, and it's in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofSlaughterClas sFeatures).


I think V would beg to differ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html).
The subject shall not be reminded of The Event.

[Pearstriker]

I had forgotten about the Chlorine Elemental, but still, shaping it into a monster that has to grab people to hurt them and can be killed is very tame compared to how chlorine was used in real life.

Eh. The whole thing where the gruesome chemical agent is now alive and will seek out victims to kill could be seen as pretty horrifying. Obviously real life atrocities will always be more horrible than fictional ones, but in concept, an animated corrosive cloud is worse than an inanimate one.

[kiapet]

"Our party death toll was a negative number" amazing :biggrin:

[Dion]

True. Kendro died fighting the Likable Death Worm, but his friends cheered since his method of death assured his ticket to Valhalla. Also, Durkon and Minra did need to get Resurrected/Raised.

Don’t forget the table!

[Ruck]

True. Kendro died fighting the Likable Death Worm, but his friends cheered since his method of death assured his ticket to Valhalla. Also, Durkon and Minra did need to get Resurrected/Raised.

Also, a lot of dwarves at the Temple of Thor.

[JessmanCA]

"Choo choo! Let's get this airship on the road!"

favorite line in a while

[The Aboleth]

Overpressure lines are not that far away from becoming leaking lines.

Still doesn't change the fact that they are not currently leaking, which is what the poster asserted. As long as the pressure is relieved, the lines are unlikely to spout a leak (at least in the real world in which the Rules of Drama aren't basically a literal force of nature).

Source: I come from a family full of mechanics.

[Jay R]

Pity they wouldn't work IRL, since Magnetic North (a) moves and (b) is quite some way south of True North.

But we have no evidence that their destination is True North rather than magnetic North, or that the two are different in this world, or even that the compass is magnetic, rather than a magic item made with the Know Direction spell.

We don't even know that "True North" even exists in this world. Perhaps the world is stationary and the sun revolves around it. Then True North, defined by spin, wouldn't even exist (although it could be defined by the rotation of the fixed stars around the earth -- if the stars are fixed in position relative to each other).

[And it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Julio had a special compass made that always pointed to the next destination.]


:elan: Ooh! Ooh! When we get to the North Pole, can I sit on Santa’s lap? Please?

Elan, we're going to Magnetic Santa, not True Santa.

[bunsen_h]

Redcloak does mention [URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html"] Though if someone did introduce magic-powered industrialization, it would be Redcloak. He’s got the right combination of intelligence, scientific knowledge (he’s already introduced chemical warfare in pretty much its most Evil form), and practicality. It’s sheer good luck that he hasn’t hit upon the idea of summoning a uranium elemental yet.

I've held a piece of uranium, rod-shaped, about half a kilogram (~ 1 lb.) IIRC. It wasn't even warm to the touch. I don't recall if it was natural uranium or depleted. (My boss at the time had had a lot of experience with radioactive materials, and was perhaps a bit too casual about the hazards.) At any rate, a uranium elemental would cause more harm through toxicity than from radioactivity unless it was enriched, or unless one spent a long time exposed to it. Would a uranium elemental be contaminated by the daughter products: radon, radium, etc.? (EDIT: Special breath weapon, radon cloud?)


Easy to find within a few hundred kilometres, if Stickworld is like Earth. Close to the magnetic pole, the field points down rather than North, and it also (I learned today) wanders up to 80km from its mean position daily as a result of interactions with charged particles from the Sun.

Huh. As in, the Earth's magnetic field is shifted around a bit by those interactions?

I'd expect it to also matter just how well-balanced and well-constructed the magnetic compass is. If it's perfectly balanced on a perfect point, it'll always point towards magnetic north. Otherwise, the directional force would be fighting the friction and whatever gravitational force results from the imperfections in the device. I've seen several so-called compasses that were all but useless; they didn't tend to point even north-ish most of the time.

[Ornithologist]

So basically you advising me to play through my entire boardgame collection (https://boardgamegeek.com/collection/user/slimy_asparagus?own=1&subtype=boardgame&ff=1). Of course finding people to participate could be difficult but in principle I like your thinking.

1. I'm in, in the very unlikely scenario where you and I live near each other.

2. Super jealous that you have a copy of Primordial Soup. I lost access to my copy years ago and cannot find a replacement anywhere....

3. I feel like we are just a page or two away from the end of the book. seems legit this time.

[Fyraltari]

Elan, we're going to Magnetic Santa, not True Santa.

My hat to you, sir.

[Petrocorus]

Still doesn't change the fact that they are not currently leaking, which is what the poster asserted. As long as the pressure is relieved, the lines are unlikely to spout a leak (at least in the real world in which the Rules of Drama aren't basically a literal force of nature).

Indeed. As long as the pressure is relieved. And that the lines are in good conditions.
But the lines may not be in good condition after the ordeal with the giants, the pressure may not be released easily, and the rules of drama are in effect.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, or that something will happen.
I'm saying this may be a foreshadowing, and something may happen.



Source: I come from a family full of mechanics.
And i am a fluid mechanics with 5 years of experience on gazeous and cryotechnical lines at the Space Center and 5 years as a high school and undergraduate school science teacher.
So what? Should we compare our argument of authority?

[Rootbeer Guy]

Wait, since when do trains exist?

[Peelee]

Wait, since when do trains exist?

1802.

Yes, I do think I'm funny!

[Petrocorus]

Wait, since when do trains exist?

Very possible those multiple reference to trains (that others have found along the comics) were a reference to Eberron, and some other fantasy setting with magical train.

Or maybe just one of those joke that reference things in Real Life that don't exist in Ootsverse but the character know about nonetheless. Like "orientation package", or webcomics.

[Rootbeer Guy]

1802.

Yes, I do think I'm funny!
We're at 1186.
I bazinga'd as well.

[HorizonWalker]

I've held a piece of uranium, rod-shaped, about half a kilogram (~ 1 lb.) IIRC. It wasn't even warm to the touch. I don't recall if it was natural uranium or depleted. (My boss at the time had had a lot of experience with radioactive materials, and was perhaps a bit too casual about the hazards.) At any rate, a uranium elemental would cause more harm through toxicity than from radioactivity unless it was enriched, or unless one spent a long time exposed to it. Would a uranium elemental be contaminated by the daughter products: radon, radium, etc.? (EDIT: Special breath weapon, radon cloud?)

One pound of uranium isn't going to do much, no, but the thing about radioactive materials is that they possess a quality called "critical mass"- the smallest amount of material required to sustain a nuclear chain reaction.

Of course, once I started looking up some numbers, I learned that Uranium 238, the most common isotope at 99% of all naturally-occurring uranium, does not have a critical mass, and has a half life of nearly five billion years, or "roughly the age of the Earth."

Plutonium 239, however, which can be relatively easily made from Uranium 238, has a critical mass of 10 kilograms, which is a sphere almost ten centimeters in diameter. A Plutonium elemental, once killed, would almost immediately turn into a nuclear fireball that turns everything in a hundred mile radius into glass and ashes.

[Dion]

Still doesn't change the fact that they are not currently leaking, which is what the poster asserted

Only after you asserted that the entire airship is a cigar.

But let’s not bicker and argue about who killed who. This is supposed to be a happy occasion!

[Rootbeer Guy]

Very possible those multiple reference to trains (that others have found along the comics) were a reference to Eberron, and some other fantasy setting with magical train.

Or maybe just one of those joke that reference things in Real Life that don't exist in Ootsverse but the character know about nonetheless. Like "orientation package", or webcomics.
I'm leaning towards the latter as well. Just found it to be in the uncanny valley of 4th wall breaking where I wasn't completely certain if I missed out a setting defying one in the background. Like, a structured corporate environment with orientation packages within a fantasy setting is unlikely, but not impossible. Actually, what I'm going with now is that dwarven booze unlocks a dormant psychic ability in humans and halflings to perceive different dimensions not yet devoured by the Snarl.

[LtPowers]

Chekov's fuel lines.


Powers &8^]

[Petrocorus]

I'm leaning towards the latter as well. Just found it to be in the uncanny valley of 4th wall breaking where I wasn't completely certain if I missed out a setting defying one in the background. Like, a structured corporate environment with orientation packages within a fantasy setting is unlikely, but not impossible. Actually, what I'm going with now is that dwarven booze unlocks a dormant psychic ability in humans and halflings to perceive different dimensions not yet devoured by the Snarl.

Many posters think it is related to Eberron (and may be true) because of the Giant's personal history with Eberron.

[Paleomancer]

Pity they wouldn't work IRL, since Magnetic North (a) moves and (b) is quite some way south of True North.
Oh yes... As someone who's learning about land navigation, the difference between true North, magnetic North, and map North (that is a thing, believe it or not) are all factors in successfully navigating from point A to B. Failure to adequately account for that can lead a person astray... Or leave them stranded.

It does make me wonder if the compass has some kind of Know Direction effect... Or as speculated by other posters, if the magnetic and true North poles are the same.

[Emperor Time]

It nice to see Roy so easy going and humorous while being on the tipsy side. And hopefully there only a few detours left at the very most before they reach the north pole. Because if there too many delays then the final gate could possibly already be discovered by Xykon.

[Doug Lampert]

While phosgene, mustard gas and sarin gas are even worse than chlorine gas, I very much doubt that any of them exist in elemental form in the OOTSverse.

In the real world what makes poison gas a consensus evil weapon isn't that it kills people, pretty much all military weapons kill people, it is that it permanently disables the survivors WITHOUT necessarily stopping them from fighting and the wind could blow it back over your own position (and even if it doesn't, for offensive use you have your own guys advancing into the cloud).

So you permanently cripple large numbers of soldiers from both sides, without necessarily taking them out of the current combat, and it's not even particularly good at winning the battle.

If gas were a war-winner or really useful, it would never have been banned or the ban would never have held. After WWI the consensus was, "It's horrible, and it doesn't even work."

Chlorine gas is in many respects one of the most evil forms of gas warfare, not because it's more effective, but because it's even less effective than the others.

[MossyMeow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the first time we've ever seen Roy drunk before.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Unless you count drunk on love while out on his date with Celia, yes it is.

[Jannoire]

Don’t forget the table!

The table was already fashioned from the corpse of a tree, so it was already dead, technically

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wait, tables are undead?

[Jasdoif]

Wait, tables are undead?It's an object!

[The Aboleth]

So what? Should we compare our argument of authority?

I regularly "cite my sources" as a preemptive counter to anyone who would assert I have zero clue what I'm talking about--this is the internet, after all, and that has specifically happened to me on this forum.

In no way was I trying to imply that I have the highest level of experience possible or that others (such as yourself) might not* have more experience than I; just that I have some level of understanding on the topic that isn't "I read it somewhere on the internet. "

EDIT:

Only after you asserted that the entire airship is a cigar.

But let’s not bicker and argue about who killed who. This is supposed to be a happy occasion!

It was a callback to a quote from the Giant:



Why would I possibly WANT this sort of speculation?

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, characters that have a similar hairstyle just have a similar hairstyle. How many hairstyles do you think there are that can be drawn in stick figure style, anyway?

Here's the relevant link to the quote, too:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127453-Random-Speculation-Time!-The-Girl-in-Panel-Seven-of-683&p=7066430#post7066430

EDIT 2: *omitted the word "not" which completely changed my meaning; including now

[bunsen_h]

One pound of uranium isn't going to do much, no, but the thing about radioactive materials is that they possess a quality called "critical mass"- the smallest amount of material required to sustain a nuclear chain reaction.

Of course, once I started looking up some numbers, I learned that Uranium 238, the most common isotope at 99% of all naturally-occurring uranium, does not have a critical mass, and has a half life of nearly five billion years, or "roughly the age of the Earth."

Sure, hence my specifying "natural or depleted". I wouldn't care to handle a half-kilogram of enriched uranium with my hands.


Plutonium 239, however, which can be relatively easily made from Uranium 238, has a critical mass of 10 kilograms, which is a sphere almost ten centimeters in diameter. A Plutonium elemental, once killed, would almost immediately turn into a nuclear fireball that turns everything in a hundred mile radius into glass and ashes.

Now that's an interesting question: is it possible for a plutonium elemental to exist at all? Does it go critical only when it's killed? What about technetium and protactinium, and others that are found naturally only in trace amounts, or are only known synthetically? Some of the half-lives aren't super-short, though I don't think anyone has collected enough of any of these elements together to get a good idea of their critical masses.

Am I correct in assuming that element-based elementals aren't from standard gaming rule sets?

[Doug Lampert]

It was a callback to a quote from the Giant:



Here's the relevant link to the quote, too:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127453-Random-Speculation-Time!-The-Girl-in-Panel-Seven-of-683&p=7066430#post7066430

It's a callback to an alleged Sigmund Freud quote dating back to 1950, the Giant makes lots of pop-culture references.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Correct. It's just Rich making fun of some of the game's assumptions.

Fun thought exercise: how big of a plutonium elemental would you need to summon before you have a bigger pile of Pu-239 than is in all the nuclear weapons on Earth?

[Petrocorus]

I regularly "cite my sources" as a preemptive counter to anyone who would assert I have zero clue what I'm talking about--this is the internet, after all, and that has specifically happened to me on this forum.

In no way was I trying to imply that I have the highest level of experience possible or that others (such as yourself) might have more experience than I; just that I have some level of understanding on the topic that isn't "I read it somewhere on the internet. "


I see what you mean.
I was not trying to bash you. Just to invalidate what i perceived as an argument to authority. I tend to be a bit sensitive on this kind of things.

When i was in the space center, with my bachelor, i saw more than once that i knew better than some engineer with a master and less than colleague with an associate degrees, or no degree.
As a teacher, i've been proven wrong more than once by 16 y.o pupil on something i though i knew.
And i can see every time i turn on the TV that i now know much more on political science and macro-economics that the average journalist or politician of my country, despite having never attended a single class on this subjects.

So I tend to judge the validity of an argument only on the argument itself.
I do cite my source when i'm referring to something i read, or when something cannot be proven through argumentation.

[The Aboleth]

I see what you mean.
I was not trying to bash you. Just to invalidate what i perceived as an argument to authority. I tend to be a bit sensitive on this kind of things.


I understand and think we're pretty much on the same page. I didn't think you were trying to bash me, and if my post sounded aggressive towards you I apologize without reservation.

As to the plutoniun/uranium discussion, I had no idea until today you could hold uranium and not have it do irreparable damage to...well, yourself. This is why I keep coming to the forums--I learn weird, random, wonderful things here all the time!

[Petrocorus]

I understand and think we're pretty much on the same page. I didn't think you were trying to bash me, and if my post sounded aggressive towards you I apologize without reservation.

It was not aggressive and there is no need to apologize. Maybe i misunderstood it because you made it quick or maybe i became too sensitive on this argument because i sadly see it far too often.

[Jasdoif]

Plutonium 239, however, which can be relatively easily made from Uranium 238, has a critical mass of 10 kilograms, which is a sphere almost ten centimeters in diameter. A Plutonium elemental, once killed, would almost immediately turn into a nuclear fireball that turns everything in a hundred mile radius into glass and ashes.If it's a particularly pure plutonium-239 elemental, maybe. There are multiple isotypes of plutonium, though; and a small percentage of plutonium-240 is enough to prevent the rapid consumption needed for nuclear explosions (that's the difference between weapons-grade plutonium and reactor-grade plutonium).

[Liquor Box]

I'm kind of impressed by Bandana's comment in the second panel. Just off the cuff saying that her crewmates should report to the person who knocked her unconscious and almost killed them all when necessary is both important as a clear statement of 'business as usual' and that Andi, despite treading on thin ice, should be relied on as mechanic.
It was the right decision, clearly, but saying it so readily and unprompted is impressive.

To me that came across as kind a grumpy response to the crew member. Imagine your own boss replying to you in that manner if you brought something to them which should perhaps have gone to someone else.

[Kislath]

HAHAHAHA!
This was a good one!

So... drunk Roy is Elan, and drunk Belkar is Vaarsuvius.

We gotta get the others drunk and see who they become.

[bunsen_h]

Correct. It's just Rich making fun of some of the game's assumptions.

Fun thought exercise: how big of a plutonium elemental would you need to summon before you have a bigger pile of Pu-239 than is in all the nuclear weapons on Earth?

Very, very briefly... :smallsmile: I'm reminded of Asimov's The God's Themselves and the implications of finding a jar of plutonium-186.


When i was in the space center, with my bachelor, i saw more than once that i knew better than some engineer with a master and less than colleague with an associate degrees, or no degree.

Oh my goodness, yes. I've met any number of idiots who believed that their degree-of-whatever-kind in [X] granted them authority in completely unrelated fields. And several people with advanced degrees who were idiots even in their own fields of supposed expertise. My first real sign of the potential hollowness of academic advancement was the summer before I started my bachelor's degree, when I saw a doctoral student using a calculator to multiply 2-digit integers by 10 in his lab book.


To me that came across as kind a grumpy response to the crew member. Imagine your own boss replying to you in that manner if you brought something to them which should perhaps have gone to someone else.

Mm, I suppose. It depends somewhat on how busy the boss is, and how obvious it should be to me that I ought to be asking some other specific person. If I could reasonably be expected not to know who to ask (and to not have the info myself), the boss shouldn't react in that kind of way.

[Sniccups]

Well I'd certainly hope so! I'd have to lodge a complaint if it was anywhere north of True North.

I was about to say this. Anywhere that isn't the North Pole is south of the North Pole. (If you stay on the planet.)

[Peelee]

To me that came across as kind a grumpy response to the crew member. Imagine your own boss replying to you in that manner if you brought something to them which should perhaps have gone to someone else.

Seconded. I wanted to say that but didn't quite know how to phrase it.

[The Aboleth]

To me that came across as kind a grumpy response to the crew member. Imagine your own boss replying to you in that manner if you brought something to them which should perhaps have gone to someone else.

To be fair to Bandana, not that much time has passed since Andi hit her over the head with a wrench and started a mutiny that nearly got everyone killed. I'd still be a bit grumpy, too.

[Psychronia]

I should've guessed that Belkar was better at being a functioning drunk than Roy.

[BriarHobbit]

The Order did better than a draw in that whole battle with the forces of Hel.

[F.Harr]

Let's w-r-O-l! Forward! And someone get Roy some coffee.

[UtahBrian]

So, the geographic North Pole is also the magnetic North Pole. I'd wondered.

Meanwhile on Earth, the North Pole is as drunk as Roy, wandering all over carelessly at high speed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_drift

[denthor]

I was about to say this. Anywhere that isn't the North Pole is south of the North Pole. (If you stay on the planet.)

No anywhere is a different nation

Comic 226

[Silent Wrangler]

No anywhere is a different nation

Comic 226

I'm pretty sure all of the kingdom of Anywhere is to the south from the North Pole. Unless there's.an enclave.

[Liquor Box]

Mm, I suppose. It depends somewhat on how busy the boss is, and how obvious it should be to me that I ought to be asking some other specific person. If I could reasonably be expected not to know who to ask (and to not have the info myself), the boss shouldn't react in that kind of way.
She's not busy - she spends the rest of the strip in banter with the Order. It's possible that that crew member had asked the same thing several times before, but there's nothing in the strip to hint at that. All we have in the strip is a crew member politely asking the captain a question, then the captain angrily rebuking him, before going back to being friendly with the more important people.


To be fair to Bandana, not that much time has passed since Andi hit her over the head with a wrench and started a mutiny that nearly got everyone killed. I'd still be a bit grumpy, too.
But the grumpiness isn't directed at Andi, it's directed at some random crew member.

[hamishspence]

I'd call it irritation rather than anger, for the flat eyebrow. Anger is V-shaped eyebrow.

[Jannoire]

Am I correct in assuming that element-based elementals aren't from standard gaming rule sets?

Yes. That's why there was so much confusion when Redcloak fired Ti-elementals during the siege.


This is why I keep coming to the forums--I learn weird, random, wonderful things here all the time!

Plus it's a fun way to wait for an update


My first real sign of the potential hollowness of academic advancement was the summer before I started my bachelor's degree, when I saw a doctoral student using a calculator to multiply 2-digit integers by 10 in his lab book.

Better be safe than sorry...


I'd call it irritation rather than anger, for the flat eyebrow. Anger is V-shaped eyebrow.

Eyebrows shaped like an elf wizard? I got to see that!

[danielxcutter]

A train also appears here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html).

[hamishspence]

Eyebrows shaped like an elf wizard? I got to see that!

V has eyebrows in the appropriate shape, in the very first panel of OOTS:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html

[Deathhappens]

Actually, I think I remember something about magnetic compasses going completely haywire in the vicinity of the poles, but I'm sure Plot will happen along the way long before that becomes a problem, Bandana.

Or I guess I should say "Captain Neckerchief" now. *snicker*

[Breccia]

Indeed, there is no such thing. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html)

Also, you can't have a railroad plot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) without railroads.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Elan, we're going to Magnetic Santa, not True Santa.You can't not sit in magnetic Santa's lap.
Chlorine gas is in many respects one of the most evil forms of gas warfare, not because it's more effective, but because it's even less effective than the others.Florine gas is significantly more stupid evil than chlorine. It was never really used as a weapon because while it's good at killing people, it not good at being sent to the enemy first.
Actually, I think I remember something about magnetic compasses going completely haywire in the vicinity of the poles, but I'm sure Plot will happen along the way long before that becomes a problem, Bandana.As you come closer to the pole, the compass tries to point downwards in the north and upwards in the south. The dominant factor becomes the pitch the compass is held at. If you try to force the compass to be level you'll eliminate the big obvious things, but not the random little stupid things like turbulence or the positions of people on the bridge.

[Petrocorus]

All this talk about compass and poles, but it sure is more efficient to use a sextant there.

Though, you may have difficulty to find a sextant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html) on the poles.

[bunsen_h]

I love that Belkar knows what a train sounds like, despite there being no evidence of trains in this world ;)

To be fair, the word "train" was being used to describe a line of vehicles back in our 15th century (per Wiktionary, and I remember having read similar info elsewhere). Train whistles, though, would be anachronistic so far as we know. Though Belkar's familiarity with "The Trolley Song" clearly shows that some information is creeping back across the 4th wall.

[Jasdoif]

Mm, I suppose. It depends somewhat on how busy the boss is, and how obvious it should be to me that I ought to be asking some other specific person. If I could reasonably be expected not to know who to ask (and to not have the info myself), the boss shouldn't react in that kind of way.In this particular case, especially with the "thinking" hand-on-chin gesture, I think the crewman was like "are we going on as if nothing happened?" with respect to Andi's attempted mutiny and Bandana was like "Yes you are going to go on as if nothing happened."

[Doug Lampert]

To be fair, the word "train" was being used to describe a line of vehicles back in our 15th century (per Wiktionary, and I remember having read similar info elsewhere). Train whistles, though, would be anachronistic so far as we know. Though Belkar's familiarity with "The Trolley Song" clearly shows that some information is creeping back across the 4th wall.

Arguing whether trains are anachronistic as their airship prepares to depart strikes me as somehow off....

Just what is the assumed year for transportation tech where the powered airship isn't a bigger anachronism than a steam train?

[Fyraltari]

Arguing whether trains are anachronistic as their airship prepares to depart strikes me as somehow off....

Just what is the assumed year for transportation tech where the powered airship isn't a bigger anachronism than a steam train?

10 years after the espresso machine, but five years before heavier-than-air flying craft. Obviously.

[Doug Lampert]

10 years after the espresso machine, but five years before heavier-than-air flying craft. Obviously.

Well of course it's after espresso (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html), we have in comic evidence that that exists.

Edited to add: In our world the espresso machine was patented in 1884, while the first heavier than air flying craft was 1903. Assumed year is thus 1894 if based on espresso or 1898 if based on heavier than air flight. The first zeppelin flight was in 1900 and was not carrying commercial passengers for a number of years after that, while commercial steam trains date to 1812 or so.

Thus in the available range of dates based on Fyraltari's claim, the airship is anachronistic, but the train reference is not. [End edits]

[DavidSh]

Well of course it's after espresso (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html), we have in comic evidence that that exists.

That link is better evidence that V had heard of the concept of espresso than that espresso machines were actually available. Just like I can imagine a more contemporaneous character agreeing to worship a fictional deity only if it could provide practical cold fusion.

[CriticalFailure]

Providing cold fusion would greatly increase my chance of joining a religion.

[KorvinStarmast]

Providing cold fusion would greatly increase my chance of joining a religion. Even if it's a doomsday cult? :smalleek: (Somewhere in GiTP/OoTS I have a vague memory of "the end is near" kind of side character but a quick check of where I think it is leaves me empty. Hmm)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Might be one of the Dragon strips.

[The MunchKING]

Even if it's a doomsday cult? :smalleek:

Sounds like The Church of Atom.

[Cazero]

Sounds like The Church of Atom.HEATHEN !
The great Atom provides fission ! In great quantities ! Fission for everyone !
You get radioactive, and you get radioactive, and you get radioactive !

[Sniccups]

We don't even know that "True North" even exists in this world. Perhaps the world is stationary and the sun revolves around it. Then True North, defined by spin, wouldn't even exist (although it could be defined by the rotation of the fixed stars around the earth -- if the stars are fixed in position relative to each other).

[And it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Julio had a special compass made that always pointed to the next destination.]

There was a shot of the solar system at the end of How the Paladin Got his Scar.


We're at 1186.
I bazinga'd as well.

Hey, it’s strip 1186, and isn’t it also year 1186 in universe?


One pound of uranium isn't going to do much, no, but the thing about radioactive materials is that they possess a quality called "critical mass"- the smallest amount of material required to sustain a nuclear chain reaction.

Of course, once I started looking up some numbers, I learned that Uranium 238, the most common isotope at 99% of all naturally-occurring uranium, does not have a critical mass, and has a half life of nearly five billion years, or "roughly the age of the Earth."

Plutonium 239, however, which can be relatively easily made from Uranium 238, has a critical mass of 10 kilograms, which is a sphere almost ten centimeters in diameter. A Plutonium elemental, once killed, would almost immediately turn into a nuclear fireball that turns everything in a hundred mile radius into glass and ashes.

I think a plutonium elemental would probably irradiate that whole area, but the actual explosion would be much smaller because it was just a pile of plutonium rather than a nuclear bomb. I’m pretty sure it’s called a “fizzle”

[Petrocorus]

Sounds like The Church of Atom.

HEATHEN !
The great Atom provides fission ! In great quantities ! Fission for everyone !
You get radioactive, and you get radioactive, and you get radioactive !

This sound a bit like the cult of Aton (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0711.html).
Their symbol is a giant nuclear reactor, after all.

[runeghost]

Arguing whether trains are anachronistic as their airship prepares to depart strikes me as somehow off....

Just what is the assumed year for transportation tech where the powered airship isn't a bigger anachronism than a steam train?

While the first primitive steam locomotives were in use by 1820, it wasn't until the Bessemer process came along in the 1850s that sufficient quantities of quality steel for large rail networks could be mass produced. Bessemer patented his process if 1856, and the first great rail networks went up over the next decade.

Henri Giffard flew the first powered airship in 1852. So... sometime between 1852 and 1856, if you want to be technical. :smallbiggrin: (Practically speaking, there wouldn't be useful airships until the early 1900s, but I was curious if there was anyway to come up with an even remotely arguable answer in the affirmative.)

[Dion]

Hey, it’s strip 1186, and isn’t it also year 1186 in universe

ohh... good catch! I bet it’s the end of the book, too!

[bunsen_h]

I think a plutonium elemental would probably irradiate that whole area, but the actual explosion would be much smaller because it was just a pile of plutonium rather than a nuclear bomb. I’m pretty sure it’s called a “fizzle”

The tricky thing about building an atomic bomb, apart from getting the materials, is designing it so that the subcritical masses are brought together quickly enough. If so, you get a fully critical mass, rather than multiple masses getting close together that are just on the edge of criticality and melt / boil / splatter and make a big mess as well as giving off quite a bit of radiation. As I understand it.

A plutonium elemental would appear to have many critical masses of plutonium, already all together, but (by your assumption) somehow prevented from exploding by virtue of being "alive". Whether you'd get a nuclear fireball or a messy dangerous toxic fizzle would depend on whether or not that explosion prevention disappeared instantaneously.

[Resileaf]

The tricky thing about building an atomic bomb, apart from getting the materials, is designing it so that the subcritical masses are brought together quickly enough. If so, you get a fully critical mass, rather than multiple masses getting close together that are just on the edge of criticality and melt / boil / splatter and make a big mess as well as giving off quite a bit of radiation. As I understand it.

A plutonium elemental would appear to have many critical masses of plutonium, already all together, but (by your assumption) somehow prevented from exploding by virtue of being "alive". Whether you'd get a nuclear fireball or a messy dangerous toxic fizzle would depend on whether or not that explosion prevention disappeared instantaneously.

As a side note, the best way to disarm a nuclear device if it can't be disarmed safely is to shoot it and destroy it so that it doesn't reach critical mass. Sure, it'll disperse radioactive material, but at least it won't detonate.

[CriticalFailure]

Even if it's a doomsday cult? :smalleek: (Somewhere in GiTP/OoTS I have a vague memory of "the end is near" kind of side character but a quick check of where I think it is leaves me empty. Hmm)

Sure, plus I figure cold fusion is probably helpful in averting certain Doomsday scenarios anyways.

[DougTheHead]

The tricky thing about building an atomic bomb, apart from getting the materials, is designing it so that the subcritical masses are brought together quickly enough. If so, you get a fully critical mass, rather than multiple masses getting close together that are just on the edge of criticality and melt / boil / splatter and make a big mess as well as giving off quite a bit of radiation. As I understand it.

A plutonium elemental would appear to have many critical masses of plutonium, already all together, but (by your assumption) somehow prevented from exploding by virtue of being "alive". Whether you'd get a nuclear fireball or a messy dangerous toxic fizzle would depend on whether or not that explosion prevention disappeared instantaneously.

I imagine that casting Implosion on a Plutonium elemental would create a massive nuclear explosion easily enough.

[Jasdoif]

I imagine that casting Implosion on a Plutonium elemental would create a massive nuclear explosion easily enough.It would depend on the purity of the plutonium, same as plutonium warheads which are also detonated by implosion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_design#Implosion-type_weapon).

[MossyMeow]

It would depend on the purity of the plutonium, same as plutonium warheads which are also detonated by implosion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_design#Implosion-type_weapon).

Now I’m imagining Redcloak setting off a nuclear missile with the implosion spell.

[Fyraltari]

Now I’m imagining Redcloak setting off a nuclear missile with the implosion spell.

How does the range of Implosion compares with the blast radius of that bomb?

[MossyMeow]

How does the range of Implosion compares with the blast radius of that bomb?

The real question is, what kind of damage does a nuclear explosion deal? I feel like it would deal a large amount of radiant damage on detonation, and everyone in the blast radius would have to save vs. blindness. Then probably fire damage post-explosion, and then...I don’t know...maybe poison damage, to represent the falllout? Or some kind of disease? I know very little about 3.5 edition.

[Fyraltari]

The real question is, what kind of damage does a nuclear explosion deal? I feel like it would deal a large amount of radiant damage on detonation, and everyone in the blast radius would have to save vs. blindness. Then probably fire damage post-explosion, and then...I don’t know...maybe poison damage, to represent the falllout? Or some kind of disease? I know very little about 3.5 edition.

Nukes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iPH-br_eJQ) deal **** You damage, **** Everybody You Ever Loved Damage and **** Everything You Ever Cared About damage.

[NobleCuriosity]

This sound a bit like the cult of Aton (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0711.html).
Their symbol is a giant nuclear reactor, after all.

I just want to say that this joke is thus far criminally underrated.

Although I don’t think they were actually called a cult in-comic (they definitely look like one though, they go way past normal MLM entry requirements); Haley was told they were a bunch of “thieves and robbers.”

[Peelee]

I just want to say that this joke is thus far criminally underrated.

Although I don’t think they were actually called a cult in-comic (they definitely look like one though, they go way past normal MLM entry requirements); Haley was told they were a bunch of “thieves and robbers.”

I dunno, from what I've read about MLM recruiting practices, the Test of the Oscillating Doom doesn't seem too bad.

[Jasdoif]

How does the range of Implosion compares with the blast radius of that bomb?Well, implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm)'s range of Close and the implied minimum caster level means it's at least 105 feet....So barring some way to get the spell off without casting it personally, it'd probably only come up if, say, Redcloak and this hypothetical plutonium elemental suddenly appeared in the air and he was trying to set it off on the way down...and I wasn't really trying to recreate the scene from Dr. Strangelove, but I seem to have done it o_O


The real question is, what kind of damage does a nuclear explosion deal? I feel like it would deal a large amount of radiant damage on detonation, and everyone in the blast radius would have to save vs. blindness. Then probably fire damage post-explosion, and then...I don’t know...maybe poison damage, to represent the falllout? Or some kind of disease? I know very little about 3.5 edition.It'd almost certainly be untyped damage...but frankly, I don't feel it's worth modelling as damage; the only time it'd really make a difference to model a ridiculously-large explosion as a scaled-up conventional explosion (a flat Ludicrously-High-d6 damage, with a Reflex save for half damage) is if you're trying to do something "clever" with evasion or regeneration...in which case you've pretty much already decided what's going to happen and the dice aren't worth bothering to roll. Similarly, even the demon core incidents (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core) took several days for radiation poisoning to result in death; anyone worth keeping track of who might have survived the initial explosion would have access to clerical magic to remove the aftereffects...unless you rule clerical magic can't remove the aftereffects, in which case you've pretty much already decided what's going to happen and the dice aren't worth bothering to roll.

Region-wide aftereffects are not the kind of the thing the game system for small groups of humans really has fleshed out. If that doesn't dissuade you...3.5's cousin, d20 Modern, has its d20 Apocalypse supplement that (unsurprisingly) talks a bit about dealing with that degree of devastation. It's mostly descriptive (except some of the bits on handling exposure to radioactivity, which are in d20 Modern's SRD (http://spellbooksoftware.com/d20mrsd/futureenv.html#radiation)), so it'd be reasonably tolerably adaptable.

[Cirin]

I love that Belkar knows what a train sounds like, despite there being no evidence of trains in this world ;) Honestly, this entire comic was excellent - "I said might" ;)

Trains are steam-level technology.

Could be Gnomish. We saw wackier stuff in Tinkertown.

If it's something that could be made with technology roughly predating 1850, I presume Gnomes can make it.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Trains are steam-level technology.

Could be Gnomish. We saw wackier stuff in Tinkertown.

If it's something that could be made with technology roughly predating 1850, I presume Gnomes can make it.

I m personally under the group of thpught that thinks that gnomes cn mae basiclly anything.

[Peelee]

I m personally under the group of thpught that thinks that gnomes cn mae basiclly anything.

But can dwarves make sense of why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

[Wizard_Lizard]

But can dwarves make sense of why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

because cinnamon

[Aeson]

because cinnamon
I suspect it has more to do with the sugar, myself.


The tricky thing about building an atomic bomb, apart from getting the materials, is designing it so that the subcritical masses are brought together quickly enough. If so, you get a fully critical mass, rather than multiple masses getting close together that are just on the edge of criticality and melt / boil / splatter and make a big mess as well as giving off quite a bit of radiation. As I understand it.
For a bomb, you really want the mass to go very, very supercritical - a mass which is merely critical simply isn't releasing energy rapidly enough to explode with city-destroying force.

[Cazero]

It'd almost certainly be untyped damage...but frankly, I don't feel it's worth modelling as damage;
Neither is lava, or falling from orbit.
So, something like 30d8? Maybe less?

[diremage]

Neither is lava, or falling from orbit.
So, something like 30d8? Maybe less?

I'd probably model a nuclear blast as an AoE Disintegrate effect. So, 2d6 per caster level, maybe reflex save to get behind something solid and taking only 5d6. That lets you scale it to the party, work it into an encounter and still have it be "levels a city" kind of devastation. It can kill party members (the party cleric, in particular, is going to be in danger of being one-shotted, and probably the wizard also) without being a TPK.

And of course, the party fighter can take a direct hit from a nuke and keep on trucking. He'll be feeling it in the morning, though.

[brian 333]

I'd probably model a nuclear blast as an AoE Disintegrate effect. So, 2d6 per caster level, maybe reflex save to get behind something solid and taking only 5d6. That lets you scale it to the party, work it into an encounter and still have it be "levels a city" kind of devastation. It can kill party members (the party cleric, in particular, is going to be in danger of being one-shotted, and probably the wizard also) without being a TPK.

And of course, the party fighter can take a direct hit from a nuke and keep on trucking. He'll be feeling it in the morning, though.

This is how GammaWorld campaigns begin, and you really don't want to go there...

[Riftwolf]

I'd probably model a nuclear blast as an AoE Disintegrate effect. So, 2d6 per caster level, maybe reflex save to get behind something solid and taking only 5d6. That lets you scale it to the party, work it into an encounter and still have it be "levels a city" kind of devastation. It can kill party members (the party cleric, in particular, is going to be in danger of being one-shotted, and probably the wizard also) without being a TPK.

And of course, the party fighter can take a direct hit from a nuke and keep on trucking. He'll be feeling it in the morning, though.

D&D doesn't have nukes, but 3.5 does have Locate City Bombs, which are far worse.

[Jasdoif]

Neither is lava, or falling from orbit.
So, something like 30d8? Maybe less?Well, d20 Modern has rules for varying amounts of conventional explosives (http://spellbooksoftware.com/d20mrsd/weapons.html#explosive); so if you insist....


Since I was just talking about the demon core....Fat Man had a 21 kiloton yield (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Man), so it was equivalent to 21,000,000 kilograms of TNT; which converts to about 46,297,000 pounds of TNT. Quick Google search suggests (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Conversion-factors-for-explosives_tbl2_273659070) Semtex is 1.25 times as potent as TNT; which converts to about 37,038,000 pounds of Semtex.

Now, according to the rules above, one pound of Semtex does 4d6 damage and has a 10 foot burst radius, and each additional pound increases the damage by 2d6 and the burst radius by two feet. So with that much, we end up with....


74076002d6, affecting everything in 74,076,008 feet. So, everything in 14,030 miles is obliterated.

Except the Tarrasque, which gets up after its regeneration recovers from the damage 125-771 days later.

[Peelee]

Since I was just talking about the demon core....Fat Man had a 21 kiloton yield (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Man), so it was equivalent to 21,000 kilograms of TNT; which converts to about 46,297 pounds of TNT. Quick Google search suggests (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Conversion-factors-for-explosives_tbl2_273659070) Semtex is 1.25 times as potent as TNT; which converts to about 37,038 pounds of Semtex.

Now, according to the rules above, one pound of Semtex does 4d6 damage and has a 10 foot burst radius, and each additional pound increases the damage by 2d6 and the burst radius by two feet. So with that much, we end up with....


74078d6, affecting everything in 74,084 feet. So, everything in 14 miles is obliterated.

...can I roll a Reflex check for half damage?

[Jasdoif]

...can I roll a Reflex check for half damage?Sure! Semtex's DC 18 for half is the highest on the table, so why not? (You're being awfully evasive....)

[bunsen_h]

D&D doesn't have nukes, but 3.5 does have Locate City Bombs, which are far worse.

I hadn't heard of that one (not a big surprise given my having been out of the loop for a while). Impressive!

The biggest bang that I ever set up in-game never got activated. It involved casting "Reduction" on a bunch of large-ish objects -- blocks of stone or ice; I don't recall which, and I'd created a bunch of scrolls with the spell. Gathering them into a pile. Then, shortly before they started re-expanding, casting one of the "totally impervious" barrier spells around them. At the time, the Wall of Force could be cast as a sphere; now, you'd use a Force Cage, I suppose, though you could also work it with four Wall of Force spells arranged to enclose a tetrahedral volume.

From the point of view of the shrunk objects, when the Reduction wears off, the surroundings rapidly become smaller.

What kind of heat and pressure do you get by compressing water or stone into a very small fraction of their normal volume? Enough to get fusion? What happens when the enclosing spell wears off? Even if you don't achieve fusion, you're going to get quite a bang when that pressure is released.

[BarakDeathBlade]

Also, you can't have a railroad plot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) without railroads.


Seven pages and nobody mentioned http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html ?

Roy clearly knows what a train is.

[Jasdoif]

Seven pages and nobody mentioned http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html ?

Roy clearly knows what a train is.I haven't come across a telekinetic power with an auditory display, so I don't think that's a reason Roy would associate a "choo choo" noise with a train. Then again, Roy isn't the one associating a choo choo noise with a train....

[goodpeople25]

I haven't come across a telekinetic power with an auditory display, so I don't think that's a reason Roy would associate a "choo choo" noise with a train. Then again, Roy isn't the one associating a choo choo noise with a train....
While we don't see the rest of the train to know how it's powered or what information the story conveys about the train to Roy, the cutaway panel implies that the situation presented is abnormal so the question remains of how the train normally works.

[Peelee]

Seven pages and nobody mentioned http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html ?

Close, but no cigar. First post on the sixth page:


A train also appears here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html).

[Ruck]

Hey, it’s strip 1186, and isn’t it also year 1186 in universe?


In universe it is calendar year 1184.

[danielxcutter]

Close, but no cigar. First post on the sixth page:

>:3c Sudden Strike!

[BarakDeathBlade]

Also, you can't have a railroad plot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) without railroads.


Close, but no cigar. First post on the sixth page:

Fair enough. Missed it.

[Sir_Galliant]

In that case, how would you model the damage of Tsar Bombs used at full power? That would be one helluva kick...

[Fyraltari]

In that case, how would you model the damage of Tsar Bombs used at full power? That would be one helluva kick...

‘Tsar Bomb falls, everybody dies’.

[D.One]

‘Tsar Bomb falls, everybody dies’.

If you are inside an old refrigerator, you may try a Fortitude Save DC 30 to take only 30d6 damage :smallbiggrin:

[Jasdoif]

In that case, how would you model the damage of Tsar Bombs used at full power? That would be one helluva kick...‘Tsar Bomb falls, everybody dies’.This. I mean, we were already well past that point....The rules were pretty clearly not designed to scale anywhere near this far; I can tell because the formula assumes a correlation between weight and radius, rather than weight and volume. That does, of course, mean extrapolating is easy to estimate....


Tsar Bomba would theoretically have a 100-megaton yield; so basically multiply everything above by 5,000. Hundreds of millions of dice, obliterates everything in 70,000 miles, the Tarrasque would be unconscious for three months to a year-and-a-half....

If that sounds like too much work, don't worry: That's enough damage, on average, to destroy a 27-mile thick object made of stone. I think Earth's continental crust is like 25 miles? And that blast radius is over four times Earth's diameter, so....It really depends on if or how much you want to deal with line of effect and/or conceptually slicing the crust into distinct pieces; but an airburst spaceburst over an Earth-ish world would vaporize everyone on up to half the planet's surface, and most of that half becomes lava-filled badlands horriblelands horribadlands....And immersion in lava doesn't allow a save, so using evasion on the still-DC-18 Reflex save isn't thorough enough on its own. And even though the Tarrasque's immunity to fire damage would keep it from being indefinitely unconscious from immersion in lava, it still needs to breathe so that'd get annoying in a hurry (it can't be killed by failing saves against instant death effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm), but drowning doesn't allow a save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning)....).

EDIT: This was ludicrous before; if you want to multiply things by a thousand to get more "accurate" numbers, be my guest >>;


So, yeah, this would be setting-background scale stuff if you bothered to model it this way...which is why you shouldn't bother to model it this way.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't remember all the trivia with Etherealness off the top of my head, but am I right in thinking it doesn't help with AoE attacks?

[Lord Torath]

Since I was just talking about the demon core....Fat Man had a 21 kiloton yield (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Man), so it was equivalent to 21,000 kilograms of TNT; which converts to about 46,297 pounds of TNT. Quick Google search suggests (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Conversion-factors-for-explosives_tbl2_273659070) Semtex is 1.25 times as potent as TNT; which converts to about 37,038 pounds of Semtex.I think you're off by a few orders of magnitude here. A kiloton is a thousand tons, and a (metric) ton is 1000 kg, so a 21 kiloton yield is the equivalent of 21 million kg of TNT, not 21,000 kg.

[Jasdoif]

I don't remember all the trivia with Etherealness off the top of my head, but am I right in thinking it doesn't help with AoE attacks?You'd be on the the Ethereal Plane rather than the Material Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness), so you'd be outside the affected area; though you might have to deal with the absence of a planet from "under" you if you're ethereal from a temporary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealJaunt.htm) effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealness.htm).

You may be thinking of incorporeality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality), in which case you'd be immune to the nonmagical attack...though not having anything else around you might cause you indirect problems.


I think you're off by a few orders of magnitude here. A kiloton is a thousand tons, and a (metric) ton is 1000 kg, so a 21 kiloton yield is the equivalent of 21 million kg of TNT, not 21,000 kg.Hm. So it is; apparently my double-check for the definition of kiloton ended up on a definition of general TNT equivalency that talked about kilotons later on....Which still sounds like it's not worth modelling. Especially since that would mean detonating Tsar Bomba on Earth could pulverize Venus, depending on distance between the planets at the time....

[Quizatzhaderac]

The real question is, what kind of damage does a nuclear explosion deal? I feel like it would deal a large amount of radiant damage on detonation, and everyone in the blast radius would have to save vs. blindness. Then probably fire damage post-explosion, and then...I don’t know...maybe poison damage, to represent the falllout? Or some kind of disease? I know very little about 3.5 edition.The short version is: if it goes off where PCs can see it just cut away to the afterlife, true resurrections required for everyone. Like "rocks fall, everyone dies" except the rocks are dead too.

I'd model as (treating is as a 20 MT blast):

Fire damage: 1 D6 per 34 km/ radius (treating third degree burns as d6). Cover negates, but extraordinary cover is needed. Most of what's normally considered full cover reduced damage by half. If negative hit-points exceed 50 + (4* max) the body is disintegrated.

A fortitude save versus acute radiation poison DC 10*5.4 km/radius. Failure gives 72 hours to live, cure disease is required to fix.

A fortitude save versus multiple organ death DC 3*5.4 km/radius. Failure gives 24 hours to live, regeneration is required to fix. I would let players use raise dead (diamond free) or heal, since the parts are still attached.

Sonic damage: 1D6 per 22.2 km/ radius2. If negative hit-points exceed 50 + (4* max) the body is disintegrated. Fort save DC 10 + damage for deafness.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sounds too involved. "You're all dead, campaign over" is much pithier.

[Jasdoif]

Sounds too involved. "You're all dead, campaign over" is much pithier.And if your next campaign is set in the Mournland, you might even be able to play out the aftermath vicariously!

[Cazero]

Sounds too involved. "You're all dead, campaign over" is much pithier.
Except the Rogue. He got Evasion.

[MossyMeow]

I didn’t expect my off-the-cuff, somewhat facetious inquiry to spawn so much analysis, but then again, maybe I shouldn’t have been surprised. It’s all par for the course.

Gosh, I love this forum sometimes. You guys are amazing.

[Doug Lampert]

Neither is lava, or falling from orbit.
So, something like 30d8? Maybe less?

I have found only two cases of someone falling on lava. In both cases they got up and walked away with only minor injuries. (Hint: Lava is viscous and denser than you are and a lousy conductor of heat. You hit it and float on the surface, you don't fall into it, that's a movie special effect using water and then coloring it red that you're thinking of, with real lava, if the air is cool enough to survive breathing the air, then the lava has a nearly solid crust that you rest on. Heavy clothes will protect you except where exposed skin touches the lava where you will have serious burns.)

There have been at least 5 cases of someone being ejected from an aircraft at multiple thousands of feet and living. Specifically there was a stewardess who landed in the Amazon basin and had to get up and walk to find rescue, fortunately she had no serious injuries. Same for one of the WWII gunners. Falling from orbit would kill you via suffocation prior to reentry and via reentry heating, but hitting the ground at terminal velocity is quite survivable with sufficient luck in terms of what you hit. (Hint: D&D HP have pretty well always included luck as part of the official explanation of what they are, with luck you can survive a terminal velocity fall, hence HP protect from terminal velocity falls.)

So, yeah, both of those should have damage, and arguably, the damage given in the rulebook is far far too high given that low level NPCs appear quite able to survive those effects.

Nuke at point blank range, that's much less survivable.

[MossyMeow]

I have found only two cases of someone falling on lava. In both cases they got up and walked away with only minor injuries. (Hint: Lava is viscous and denser than you are and a lousy conductor of heat. You hit it and float on the surface, you don't fall into it, that's a movie special effect using water and then coloring it red that you're thinking of, with real lava, if the air is cool enough to survive breathing the air, then the lava has a nearly solid crust that you rest on. Heavy clothes will protect you except where exposed skin touches the lava where you will have serious burns.)

There have been at least 5 cases of someone being ejected from an aircraft at multiple thousands of feet and living. Specifically there was a stewardess who landed in the Amazon basin and had to get up and walk to find rescue, fortunately she had no serious injuries. Same for one of the WWII gunners. Falling from orbit would kill you via suffocation prior to reentry and via reentry heating, but hitting the ground at terminal velocity is quite survivable with sufficient luck in terms of what you hit. (Hint: D&D HP have pretty well always included luck as part of the official explanation of what they are, with luck you can survive a terminal velocity fall, hence HP protect from terminal velocity falls.)

So, yeah, both of those should have damage, and arguably, the damage given in the rulebook is far far too high given that low level NPCs appear quite able to survive those effects.

Nuke at point blank range, that's much less survivable.

Aren’t you actually more likely to survive a nuclear explosion if the bomb is dropped directly overhead? I know that’s what happened in Hiroshima; the building directly under the blast survived, although I don’t know if the people did. Then again, modern bombs might have a different...radius? Is that the right word? I don’t know, I’m far from an expert. I just have a morbid fascination with nuclear weapons.

[Doug Lampert]

Aren’t you actually more likely to survive a nuclear explosion if the bomb is dropped directly overhead? I know that’s what happened in Hiroshima; the building directly under the blast survived, although I don’t know if the people did. Then again, modern bombs might have a different...radius? Is that the right word? I don’t know, I’m far from an expert. I just have a morbid fascination with nuclear weapons.

Both of those were airbursts, IIRC structures directly below were less damaged than those a short distance to the side, because there were no lateral winds to finish off anything not directly destroyed by the radiation and blast if directly under the blast.

I don't believe any people directly below survived, but IIRC it was theorized that someone in a subway or bank vault directly beneath an airburst might survive. This is why effects of nuclear weapons blast radii tend to have a 99%+ fatality zone for the most destructive effects, someone COULD live even at point blank range given appropriate cover.

Point blank from a H-bomb would be less survivable, but they still list the "total devastation" zone as 99%+ fatality rather than 100%, because stuff happens and people can be very hard to kill (or they can die slipping in the bathroom, stuff happens both ways).

OTOH, 99%+ fatalities does not in any way contradict the claim that this is much less survivable than 10,000' free falls or falling onto lava. Falling onto lava is notably non-fatal in the available data. Point blank from a bomb is just "we think it might not kill you if stuff happens just right".

[MossyMeow]

Both of those were airbursts, IIRC structures directly below were less damaged than those a short distance to the side, because there were no lateral winds to finish off anything not directly destroyed by the radiation and blast if directly under the blast.

I don't believe any people directly below survived, but IIRC it was theorized that someone in a subway or bank vault directly beneath an airburst might survive. This is why effects of nuclear weapons blast radii tend to have a 99%+ fatality zone for the most destructive effects, someone COULD live even at point blank range given appropriate cover.

Point blank from a H-bomb would be less survivable, but they still list the "total devastation" zone as 99%+ fatality rather than 100%, because stuff happens and people can be very hard to kill (or they can die slipping in the bathroom, stuff happens both ways).

OTOH, 99%+ fatalities does not in any way contradict the claim that this is much less survivable than 10,000' free falls or falling onto lava. Falling onto lava is notably non-fatal in the available data. Point blank from a bomb is just "we think it might not kill you if stuff happens just right".

Something tells me testing any of those hypotheses would be a breach of scientific ethics, which is probably why it’s still a mystery. That being said, I think even the most curious scientists would rather not have nuclear weapons devastate entire cities, regardless of the possible data that could provide. Then again, as the radius of an explosion increases...

[Dion]

Something tells me testing any of those hypotheses would be a breach of scientific ethics

Right, but suppose Xykon does somehow catch O’Chul again, allowing these tests to be performed in an unethical manner.

If you put a paladin in the fridge, does he survive a bomb?

[Schroeswald]

Right, but suppose Xykon does somehow catch O’Chul again, allowing these tests to be performed in an unethical manner.

If you put a paladin in the fridge, does he survive a bomb?

Who said anything about a fridge? I’m sure O-Chul could survive a nuclear bomb fridgeless, he’d make the fort save for half damage, the bomb would roll low in damage and he’d survive (with negative hit points).

[bunsen_h]

Sounds too involved. "You're all dead, campaign over" is much pithier.

If the DM is inclined to be merciful / generous, there's some precedent in the rules for "a rip got torn in the fabric of the multiverse, let's see where you fell through to". Depending, perhaps, on whether the PCs were directly responsible for the disaster.

Let some good come of the plot of Farnham's Freehold. :smalltongue:

[Gnoman]

Aren’t you actually more likely to survive a nuclear explosion if the bomb is dropped directly overhead? I know that’s what happened in Hiroshima; the building directly under the blast survived, although I don’t know if the people did. Then again, modern bombs might have a different...radius? Is that the right word? I don’t know, I’m far from an expert. I just have a morbid fascination with nuclear weapons.

A nuclear blast does damage in more than one way. The initial energy release is emitted as a thermal pulse - as this is absorbed into the atmosphere it generates an enormous fireball. In the case of Hiroshima, the burst altitude was high enough that the fireball did not reach the ground. The thermal pulse doesn't end there - it continues well outside the fireball setting fire to almost anything* that can burn, etc. The next feature is that of wind - all that energy being dumped into the atmosphere generates a wind that dwarfs any tornado or hurricane. This last bit doesn't go downward very much, as there's a massive updraft going into the vacuum created by the blast. It is theoretically possible that a sturdy structure could keep out the thermal pulse and the wind blast, but very unlikely that you wouldn't be asphyxiated as air got sucked upward.



* Reference this terrifying quote from a pilot who was supposed to fly through after a test blast to gather atmospheric data, except on one mission where timing got screwed up.




In reviewing the flight, we found that the heat reflected off the overcast and onto my F-84 had burned away or wrinkled the skin on the flaps, stabilator, and ailerons. The glare shield above the instrument panel, and all of the black tape windings on the instrument lines behind it, were completely burned away. The hydraulic fluid that had leaked out around the rudder pedals had created other fires. The lens on the over-the-shoulder camera inside my protective hood had melted. Of the three layers of asbestos and aluminum cloth that made up the hood itself, two were incinerated.

[danielxcutter]

...Isn't asbestos literally supposed to be non-flammable?

[Peelee]

...Isn't asbestos literally supposed to be non-flammable?

Technically everything is flammable if you just get it hot enough. [/badscience]

[Quizatzhaderac]

Aren’t you actually more likely to survive a nuclear explosion if the bomb is dropped directly overhead? Buildings are definitely more likely to survive. A person in a surviving building is much more likely to survive.

We also have data from the Tunguska meteoroid about what a 30 MT blast would look like; trees at the center were scorched but not knocked down.


Point blank from a H-bomb would be less survivable, but they still list the "total devastation" zone as 99%+ fatality rather than 100%, because stuff happens and people can be very hard to kill (or they can die slipping in the bathroom, stuff happens both ways).There's a distinction to be made between "ground zero" and "point blank".

The numbers I see all assume airburst as the "normal" and most effective. Which means person closest on the ground might still be kilometers away.

If the target is a supervillain or kaiju (instead of a city) it would make more sense to detonate the the bomb right on top of the target. Or circling back OotS, if Redcloak summoned a plutonium elemental and cast implosion on it, the OotS would likely be within a few hundred feet, if not the same room.

If we look at underground test figures, probably the best indicator is the "Melt cavity" which is the radius in which solid rock is melted/vaporized. For an 8MT bomb that would be about 160 meters (105 squares). Dungeon figures would be much higher since the dungeon isn't solid rock and the simulation figures assume hundreds of atmospheres of ambient pressure from the enclosing earth. Also, assuming the radiation/heat/shock-wave doesn't kill them, there's still the matter of the vapor bubble collapsing at the end (i.e. ceiling collapse)

[Doug Lampert]

...Isn't asbestos literally supposed to be non-flammable?

Define flammable. Anything will vaporize with enough energy applied.

Typically, flammable means you can get a (rapid) self-sustaining exothermic reaction going in the Earth's atmosphere via oxidization.

Asbestos was used as a fire-retardant, because it's a very good insulator, and stable up to quite high temperatures, but that's not the same as fire-proof. Asbestos will react exothermically if you apply enough heat and pressure, "normal" fires just don't get that hot and I don't know if you could get this to be self sustaining particularly easily.

[bunsen_h]

Define flammable. Anything will vaporize with enough energy applied.

The word used in the quoted report was "incinerated". That's not well-defined. There are a number of kinds of asbestos with varying properties, but what I'm seeing on web pages about what happens to it at high temperature is about melting points, not decompositions.


Asbestos was used as a fire-retardant, because it's a very good insulator, and stable up to quite high temperatures, but that's not the same as fire-proof. Asbestos will react exothermically if you apply enough heat and pressure, "normal" fires just don't get that hot and I don't know if you could get this to be self sustaining particularly easily.

It's not true that "anything will burn if you get it hot enough", as the saying goes. Some things are as "burned" as they're going to get; that is, have already reacted with as much oxygen as they possibly can. At high temperature, some things decompose; others melt, then vaporize as compounds with the same composition as the original solid form.

Asbestos is differentiated from other silicate minerals by its crystal form: long thin fibers. Once it has melted, it isn't asbestos any more; it's molten generic silicate material. All of the asbestos types have some hydroxyl groups (OH) in their composition, so if you get that molten material hot enough, you're probably going to lose some water from it as vapour -- that is, a decomposition reaction. I don't know what would happen after that. If you let it cool down again, you're unlikely to get it to crystallize back into the asbestos form (even if you don't lose the water) unless you hit the right ranges of temperature and pressure... and stay there a good long time. Cool it too quickly and you get glass.

[factotum]

It's not true that "anything will burn if you get it hot enough", as the saying goes. Some things are as "burned" as they're going to get; that is, have already reacted with as much oxygen as they possibly can.

Which doesn't mean they won't "burn", they just won't burn with oxygen. Use something like chlorine trifluoride and you can quite happily set fire to bricks and sand.

[danielxcutter]

Which doesn't mean they won't "burn", they just won't burn with oxygen. Use something like chlorine trifluoride and you can quite happily set fire to bricks and sand.

According to xkcd's What If (https://what-if.xkcd.com/40/), dioxygen difluoride (O2F2) can literally make ICE catch on fire.

[factotum]

According to xkcd's What If (https://what-if.xkcd.com/40/), dioxygen difluoride (O2F2) can literally make ICE catch on fire.

ClF3 will do that as well, although it'll react explosively with the water from the melting ice. They dropped a ton of the stuff once and it burned its way through a foot of concrete and eighteen inches of sand and gravel underneath before they got it under control.

[Jasdoif]

ClF3 will do that as well, although it'll react explosively with the water from the melting ice. They dropped a ton of the stuff once and it burned its way through a foot of concrete and eighteen inches of sand and gravel underneath before they got it under control.Ah, now I know why it (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3100/fc03031.htm) sounded (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3100/fc03032.htm) familiar (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3100/fc03033.htm).

[Peelee]

According to xkcd's What If (https://what-if.xkcd.com/40/), dioxygen difluoride (O2F2) can literally make ICE catch on fire.

Ahh, good ol' FOOF. FOOF is fun. If asked, "how reactive is FOOF," the answer is "yes."

[factotum]

Ah, now I know why it (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3100/fc03031.htm) sounded (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3100/fc03032.htm) familiar (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff3100/fc03033.htm).

Never seen those. I do like John D. Clark's description of the stuff in his book about rocket fuels, "Ignition":

It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water—with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals—steel, copper, aluminum, etc.—because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride that protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.

[Peelee]

Never seen those. I do like John D. Clark's description of the stuff in his book about rocket fuels, "Ignition":

That book is sitting in a small "to be read" pile right next to me at the moment!

[halfeye]

According to xkcd's What If (https://what-if.xkcd.com/40/), dioxygen difluoride (O2F2) can literally make ICE catch on fire.


ClF3 will do that as well, although it'll react explosively with the water from the melting ice. They dropped a ton of the stuff once and it burned its way through a foot of concrete and eighteen inches of sand and gravel underneath before they got it under control.

What (theoretically), would be the result of mixing those two? I don't want to be within miles of anyone who tries, but there is theory about these things I presume.

[Peelee]

What (theoretically), would be the result of mixing those two? I don't want to be within miles of anyone who tries, but there is theory about these things I presume.

Not to sound like a broken record, but...
If asked, "how reactive is FOOF," the answer is "yes."

I think you need to get FOOF to double digit K to get it to be non-explodey. Also, you could call it dioxygen diflouride or O2F2, but when you can call it FOOF instead, why would you?

[Tvtyrant]

Never seen those. I do like John D. Clark's description of the stuff in his book about rocket fuels, "Ignition":

It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water—with which it reacts explosively. It can be kept in some of the ordinary structural metals—steel, copper, aluminum, etc.—because of the formation of a thin film of insoluble metal fluoride that protects the bulk of the metal, just as the invisible coat of oxide on aluminum keeps it from burning up in the atmosphere. If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes.

Is that the one that creates chlorine gas as a byproduct?

The one that bothers me is the Lye Soap and Aluminium or draino and aluminum ones, because those are absolutely things that can happen.

[bunsen_h]

What (theoretically), would be the result of mixing those two? I don't want to be within miles of anyone who tries, but there is theory about these things I presume.

Both FOOF and ClF3 are extremely reactive because fluorine is a very powerful oxidizing agent, and it's present in those compounds in a form that has a very low barrier to reaction. They cause fluorination reactions. And both of them are quite unstable themselves, and decompose easily.

I don't think they'd react with each other; they're not going to fluorinate each other. But...

Hydrogen peroxide and sodium hypochlorite (i.e., bleach) are both pretty strong oxidizers, semi-stable. Mix them together and you get a fairly violent reaction that releases oxygen gas -- the two cleaning agents essentially neutralize each other. Fun chemistry fact: that oxygen is in an excited energy state and emits an orange glow, just for a moment. It's not very bright, and you have to use fairly concentrated solutions in a very dark room, with your eyes well adapted to darkness, to see it.

What I'm trying to get at is that it's possible that by mixing FOOF and ClF3, you'd trigger them to decompose even under conditions where they'd ordinarily be sort-of-stable, individually. That's a kind of thing I'd rather test at a distance, using automated equipment and (ideally) a disposable lab assistant.

[factotum]

Is that the one that creates chlorine gas as a byproduct?

Hah, you poor summer child. If it only created chlorine gas as a byproduct you'd be laughing. No, it's searing hot clouds of hydrofluoric acid that are the "fun" result of combining ClF3 with water...

[Tvtyrant]

Hah, you poor summer child. If it only created chlorine gas as a byproduct you'd be laughing. No, it's searing hot clouds of hydrofluoric acid that are the "fun" result of combining ClF3 with water...

Even more exciting! I can see why they tried making rocket fuel with it, what better chem trail to leave on the way out 😆