Tech and Illusion

[Ruethgar]

So I was watching some Black Mirror-ish vids on YouTube and thinking "What would [most recent character] do in that situation?" This weeks flavor? Shadowcraft Mage in an overbearing Big Brother future... but what would the cameras see? This varies from spell to spell, but lets look at the illusion categories in general.

Cameras are probably objects, tough possibly mindless constructs? Either way Phantasms are an obvious elimination for not actually making a visual effect. Targets on camera would just seem to be fighting nothing. Figments, Glamers, and the visible(though potentially not mental) aspects of Patterns would probably all be recorded as they are made, many seem to be automatic against mindless and don't mention objects who would auto-fail if not mentioned.

The real issue, as always seems the case, is partial reality Shadow spells. Is a camera an object? If so, does it need to be touched by a shadow conjuration before the true nature is revealed or does it auto-save without the normal triggering interaction and thus always show the true nature of the illusion?

[Gauntlet]

I believe objects automatically pass saving throws against illusions, but they don't get a save in the first place unless they're magical or attended. So a camera would always show the 'failed save' image, unless it was both magical and interacting with the illusion by touching it or similar.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unattended, non-magical objects -always- fail their saving throws. Illusion magics are no exception to this rule.

A camera is not a construct. While an argument can be made for a wisdom score and the attendant perception; a camera has no sense of self, nothing to differentiate itself from whatever it's pointed at, thus no charisma. All creatures have both a wisdom and a charisma score.

An argument could be made for an AI that operates the camera being a creature if it then bases some action on what it perceives through the lens but not for the camera itself.

[Jack_Simth]

Unattended, non-magical objects -always- fail their saving throws. Illusion magics are no exception to this rule.Many Shadow spells are, however:
Check out Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm), specifically the last line: "Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell." - Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm) has the same last line, and most Shadow spells inherit from one or the other.

[Telonius]

Here's how I would personally rule it. The magic is illusory, but it's producing something like a hologram - light that's detectable by the people seeing the illusion. Cameras can photograph 3D projected images. So while the camera "believes" that the light it's recording isn't real (having made its save), it still records and transmits the image since that's its function. If you can magic up a way to talk to your camera, it can tell you what it thinks; otherwise there would be no way to tell. (I would also rule that the camera sounds exactly like Rosie Perez (https://dora.fandom.com/wiki/Click) if you find a way to talk to it).

EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more ... whether or not cameras would be able to pick up a vampire. :smallconfused:


Despite their human appearance, vampires can be easily recognized, for they cast no shadows and throw no reflections in mirrors.

That gets into Catgirl Massacre territory pretty quickly. (So how does that work? Vampires don't give off/reflect any light, but then how could you see what they look like at all? Are they giving off a funky magical not-light that's received by eyes but not reflected by surfaces? And ... I've gone crosseyed).

[Ruethgar]

Many Shadow spells are, however:
Check out Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm), specifically the last line: "Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell." - Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm) has the same last line, and most Shadow spells inherit from one or the other.

I suppose the question there would be how do you define automatic will saves for illusionary things. Does it require the normal interaction triggering to save? For example a shadow unseen servant would it be automatically visible as a shadowy image because the camera automatically saves, or would it be invisible until interacted with?

[Gauntlet]

Objects auto pass saves against Shadow spells if they're entitled to one at all, but unattended and nonmagical objects cannot make the save in the first place.

If doesn't matter if you auto pass Will saves, if you're not entitled to one in the first place.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Many Shadow spells are, however:
Check out Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm), specifically the last line: "Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell." - Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm) has the same last line, and most Shadow spells inherit from one or the other.

That makes an exception for objects but not for unattended ones. Unattended non-magical objects aren't even entitled to a save. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#savingThrows

Whoever is looking at the monitor the camera's connected to sees whatever the illusionist wants him to see.