I'm afraid to give magic items to my party

[Pinjata]

I'm currently running Mines of Phandelver, and I've run into several problems. Party consists of a Cleric, a Wizard, a Sorcerer and a Fighter. They pretty much nuke every encounter in the module (Venomfang is stil waiting for them), they are lvl 3 and are MORE THEN CAPABLE of handling pretty much anything I throw at them.

However, I see, they are getting a bit unhappy with magical items not being thrown their way. Town they operate from, is a small, frontier thing, with no magic items. They handle encounters, as mentioned, but would like some more "gadgets". But the way I see it, these gadgets will just improve their already remarkable ability to handle encounters.

Perhaps you guys have some ideas on what I can give to the group (i'm really really thinking consumable items) to make them happy, yet not give them game-breaking items? I was thinking of homebrewable wands with non-replenishable charges, perhaps swords, that can become magical only X times? But then again, maybe I'm thinking in a completelly wrong direction.

Advice much appreciated.

[J-H]

Are they nuking encounters with crowd control, or with raw damage?
Are enemies being played as dumb, or smart and tactical?
What loot are they supposed to get per the module?
What difference in capabilities does a +1 to hit and damage really make if they are nuking everything?

[nickl_2000]

Consumables are always an options. So, are items that give boost for exploration and social tiers. I will include a few fun links to look over. Also, look at the minor magical items from XGE. Wands that allow someone to cast a cantrip won't add overall power to a character, but will give them more options and toys to play with.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3yyq04/i_made_a_list_of_minor_magical_items_d100/
https://www.lordbyng.net/inspiration/


In general don't go with +1 items. They are great and add to overall power, but they don't scratch the itch of a special item as well as a Glowing Greatsword that once per day you can say a command word you you strike and cause a burst of light to flash doing 1d8 radiant damage. Or a Bardic instrument that with a command word can self amplify so that it can be heard from a mile away.

[mucat]

You seem to be going at this backwards. If your players are steamrolling every encounter, then give them more difficult encounters (either in terms of the opponents' raw power, the tactics they use, or environmental features that they can use against the party in interesting ways.)

Meanwhile, if they would enjoy more toys, then let them have more toys. Introduce magic items gradually -- they'll feel more special that way -- but don't be afraid of letting the PCs become more powerful. Again, YOU decide the power of their opposition, so you will always be able to provide fun and interesting challenges.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm currently running Mines of Phandelver, and I've run into several problems. Party consists of a Cleric, a Wizard, a Sorcerer and a Fighter. They pretty much nuke every encounter in the module (Venomfang is stil waiting for them), they are lvl 3 and are MORE THEN CAPABLE of handling pretty much anything I throw at them. How did they handle the assassins?

However, I see, they are getting a bit unhappy with magical items not being thrown their way. Town they operate from, is a small, frontier thing, with no magic items. They handle encounters, as mentioned, but would like some more "gadgets". But the way I see it, these gadgets will just improve their already remarkable ability to handle encounters.
But then again, maybe I'm thinking in a completelly wrong direction.
What is wrong with the magic items that are in the published adventure? I don't understand. Adding more magic items seems to be counter intuitive to your concerns in re power imbalance.

[Pinjata]

Are they nuking encounters with crowd control, or with raw damage?
Are enemies being played as dumb, or smart and tactical?
What loot are they supposed to get per the module?
What difference in capabilities does a +1 to hit and damage really make if they are nuking everything?

Mainly spamming Sleep and a bit of Scorching ray.
Enemies are being played as they should be - sneaky goblins and swarming udnead.
They get all the lot they get per module.
Almost none I think.

[Pinjata]

You seem to be going at this backwards. If your players are steamrolling every encounter, then give them more difficult encounters (either in terms of the opponents' raw power, the tactics they use, or environmental features that they can use against the party in interesting ways.)

Meanwhile, if they would enjoy more toys, then let them have more toys. Introduce magic items gradually -- they'll feel more special that way -- but don't be afraid of letting the PCs become more powerful. Again, YOU decide the power of their opposition, so you will always be able to provide fun and interesting challenges.

I hare "Skyrim approach", where peasants eventually become stronger then low level Barbarain Berserker.

[Pinjata]

[QUOTE=KorvinStarmast;24261499]How did they handle the assassins? /QUOTE]
Sorry, what assasins?

[stoutstien]

I'm currently running Mines of Phandelver, and I've run into several problems. Party consists of a Cleric, a Wizard, a Sorcerer and a Fighter. They pretty much nuke every encounter in the module (Venomfang is stil waiting for them), they are lvl 3 and are MORE THEN CAPABLE of handling pretty much anything I throw at them.

However, I see, they are getting a bit unhappy with magical items not being thrown their way. Town they operate from, is a small, frontier thing, with no magic items. They handle encounters, as mentioned, but would like some more "gadgets". But the way I see it, these gadgets will just improve their already remarkable ability to handle encounters.

Perhaps you guys have some ideas on what I can give to the group (i'm really really thinking consumable items) to make them happy, yet not give them game-breaking items? I was thinking of homebrewable wands with non-replenishable charges, perhaps swords, that can become magical only X times? But then again, maybe I'm thinking in a completelly wrong direction.
I'm
Advice much appreciated.

Are they having fun? It's one thing if you think they are not having problems wuth encounters and an entirely different thing if they aren't feeling challenged.

On the subject of magic items. If you avoid static bonuses on items you can hand out quite a bit without shifting the party's power a lot. Like a +1 longsword vs a flametounge. Both are excellent weapons but the flametounge doesn't increase hit chance.

[Zhorn]

Just checking, are they taking on more than 2 encounters between short rests, and more than 5 encounters between long rests? Just wanting to clarify if when you say they 'nuke' every encounter is them either going nova and resting after each fight, or they are doing the multiple encounters between rests and are just finding it too easy?
Common pitfall is resting too often and easily. A fresh party can easily hit above their weight. Gotta marathon players some times to make them feel their mortality and keep their egos in check.

Otherwise, if you're worried about the power creep, nickl_2000 has the right idea in using Xanathar's Guide to Everything. Gimmick items are fun, and while not immediately obvious for use in combat can still open the doors for some interesting strategies that keep the combats fresh for the players.

[Pinjata]

Just checking, are they taking on more than 2 encounters between short rests, and more than 5 encounters between long rests? Just wanting to clarify if when you say they 'nuke' every encounter is them either going nova and resting after each fight, or they are doing the multiple encounters between rests and are just finding it too easy?
Common pitfall is resting too often and easily. A fresh party can easily hit above their weight. Gotta marathon players some times to make them feel their mortality and keep their egos in check.

Otherwise, if you're worried about the power creep, nickl_2000 has the right idea in using Xanathar's Guide to Everything. Gimmick items are fun, and while not immediately obvious for use in combat can still open the doors for some interesting strategies that keep the combats fresh for the players.
Well you got this one completelly right. I'm giving them smaler number of tougher encounters. They go nova and rest indeed. But giving them, say, 7 Medium encounters in day - that's 2 sessions worth of combat :D (one combat usually lasts and hour)

[Bobthewizard]

The early encounters of LMOP are fairly easy. It gets harder. Send them too Thundertree to fight Venomfang and see how well sleep works. I'm not sure how sleep helped them against the zombies and red wizard. That was a hard fight for us.

There are also a lot of magic items in the adventure already. We found a +1 longsword, +1 mace, +1 breastplate, ring of protection, wand of magic missiles, spider staff, glass staff, and boots of striding and springing by the time we finished and I'm sure we missed some.

And I definitely agree with Zhorn about rests. You can gimp a sorcerer completely at level 3 just by having 6 encounters per day. Otherwise, having both a wizard and sorcerer in the party is pretty powerful at any level. Also, have your encounters occur in waves. Hold back some in the next room who enter at round 2-3. This is a good strategy for this adventure because it's hard to get 4-6 distinct encounters per day. Each quest usually only includes 3-4 encounters.

Finally, even if they are cleaning things up, don't worry about it. LMOP is meant to be an introduction so everyone can get used to the system.

[tieren]

Its ok to have one adventuring day span 2 game sessions, don't feel a need to end every session with them long resting.

Heck, try going more cinematic sometime and end with a cliff hanger, you hear the rush of an oncoming horde, you look at each other for a moment then yell "run!", See you all next week...

Sleep is uber powerful in the beginning but tapers off really fast, make sure you are limiting it to the area of effect indicated and letting it hit friendly targets if they are in the area. It is very humbling to accidentally sleep the party's tank and the enemy starts rushing the squishies.

[KorvinStarmast]

[QUOTE=KorvinStarmast;24261499]How did they handle the assassins? /QUOTE]
Sorry, what assasins? My brain may be thinking of HoTDQ here ...

[Pinjata]

[QUOTE=Pinjata;24261507] My brain may be thinking of HoTDQ here ...
Oh, I can't wait (https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/464/998/564.jpg) for that. I'm planning to guide them there after this.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I like to use this online generator for "minor" magic items when I'm starting a campaign and don't want things getting out of hand. It gives me ideas for interesting items that won't accelerate the "power curve" too quickly.

http://www.lordbyng.net/inspiration/index.php

[Lupine]

Give them a few items that are creative, but not really powerful (such as the decanter of endless water) Things that will get them items, but won't nuke the encounter. My players are level 12, but their favorite item is the bag of holding. They have monk and a bard, both of whom suck at stealth. But, they can hide in the bag of holding, and the rogue can drop them on anyone.

[Zhorn]

You will never see a party turn on each other faster than when you put a Cloak of Billowing in front of them.

[MaxWilson]

I hare "Skyrim approach", where peasants eventually become stronger then low level Barbarain Berserker.

The nice thing is that in 5E, you never need to make peasants tougher. You just need more peasants, with crossbows instead of pitchforks so you can't AoE them all with one Fireball.

Re: magic items, I suggest giving away consumables with expiration dates ("throw this grenade for a free Shatter explosion, but it's unstable and will go off spontaneously if you haven't used it 48 hours from now"), and/or fragile attuneable items which take damage from attacks and AoE AoEs just like PCs do. ("This long green parrot feather is a Feather of Mind Reading which you can place on your helmet. When attuned, it lets you read five minutes of recent memories from any creature you touch (DC 14 Wisdom save), twice a day. It has 6 HP so watch out for Shatter spells and Fireballs!")

[Dork_Forge]

They won't keep having such an easy time, but you can always just add an extra hits worth of hp to your enemies.

They haven't gotten any of the adventure items yet? What loot have they gotten?

If you add any just use some potions or a trinket, there's ample magic items in that module.

[micahaphone]

Potions are a great / fun loot - if it's weak or mysterious, they'll get to discover what it does, if it's too strong well you only overpowered one encounter

[MaxWilson]

Potions are a great / fun loot - if it's weak or mysterious, they'll get to discover what it does, if it's too strong well you only overpowered one encounter

IME they just get hoarded unless you give them an expiration date.

[nickl_2000]

IME they just get hoarded unless you give them an expiration date.

That depends on the group and the player. I'll be honest, I tend to hoard consumables if I am not paying attention because the next time may be the "perfect" time to use it whereas this time may only be okay. I've been forcing myself to use them when I think they will help to avoid that in general.

Consumable scrolls, on the other hand, are better off used. Since there is a set DC for scrolls based on the level, they will expire due to how low the DC is. That alone encourages people to actually use them.

[N810]

Well give their enemies magic items, if they defeat them, then they can have the item.
(make sure the enemies use the item in combat) ;)

[SodaQueen]

I hare "Skyrim approach", where peasants eventually become stronger then low level Barbarain Berserker.I don't know what rabbits have to do with this.

Bunnies aside, this isn't what 'make encounters more difficult' means. Not exclusively at least. If you're bothered by a goblin being slightly more power than it is in the MM (which I think is silly), use an equivalent monster of a higher level. Make the monsters fight smartly and tactically. The PC's are on the monster's turf after all, give them the homefield advantage.

[sithlordnergal]

Mainly spamming Sleep and a bit of Scorching ray.
Enemies are being played as they should be - sneaky goblins and swarming udnead.
They get all the lot they get per module.
Almost none I think.

Ok, I can see the issue. That strategy is gonna stop working the moment they start fighting anything stronger than Goblins. In order to counter it, I suggest:

1) Modify the Goblins a bit and throw in stronger ones with double the HP, and that do one or two more points of damage

2) Do larger hoards. Sleep rolls an average of 22 to 23 HP to knock out per cast at first level. That will knock out about three Goblins or a single Zombie. Since Sleep is a Wizard and Sorcerer spell, they can cast it quite a few times. However, if you toss out 9 Goblins, then you'll generally have 3 of them still awake. Have two of them wake up their fellow goblins, and one attack.

3) Use more zombies. Zombies have 22 HP, so your average Sleep spell will only knock out a single zombie. Even a 2nd level Sleep spell normally won't K.O. more than a single zombie.

4) Get up close and personal with the spell casters. Use the Goblin's Nimble Escape to get right up in front of the Sorcerer and Wizard, and attack them. Make it dangerous to cast Sleep due to their allies being in the way.

5) This is the most important one: Give them more encounters per rest. Don't give them a chance to long or short rest. I find 2 to 3 encounters per short rest works, but you may wanna do 3 encounters just in case. And make sure there are at least two short rests per long rest.

[Demonslayer666]

Don't be afraid to give them magic items. This is a big aspect to character advancement that many D&D players enjoy, myself included. Stick to potions as already mentioned, and utility magic items - since they don't need more firepower.

I also agree with ramping up the challenge level. That will make the worry about magic items lessen a bit too.

I encourage you to try it first, and adjust from there. If the items tip it too much in favor of the characters, increase challenge and back off on items.

[MaxWilson]

Bunnies aside, this isn't what 'make encounters more difficult' means. Not exclusively at least. If you're bothered by a goblin being slightly more power than it is in the MM (which I think is silly), use an equivalent monster of a higher level. Make the monsters fight smartly and tactically. The PC's are on the monster's turf after all, give them the homefield advantage.

Well, make the monsters fight tactically if it makes sense for them to do so. Otherwise just use more monsters. Being surrounded by 200 hungry zombies, underground, is bad news even if the zombies are extremely, extremely stupid.

[SodaQueen]

Well, make the monsters fight tactically if it makes sense for them to do so. Otherwise just use more monsters. Being surrounded by 200 hungry zombies, underground, is bad news even if the zombies are extremely, extremely stupid.I assumed that went without saying but thank you for clarifying for me regardless

[PhantomSoul]

3) Use more zombies. Zombies have 22 HP, so your average Sleep spell will only knock out a single zombie. Even a 2nd level Sleep spell normally won't K.O. more than a single zombie.


Well, ignoring that Zombies are immune to Sleep (it doesn't affect Undead)

[Tanarii]

Well you got this one completelly right. I'm giving them smaler number of tougher encounters. They go nova and rest indeed. But giving them, say, 7 Medium encounters in day - that's 2 sessions worth of combat :D (one combat usually lasts and hour)
That's likely your problem. Well two of them really.

Unless they're facing three Deadly encounters per Long Rest with a short rest between each, they're not doing enough tougher smaller number encounters.

Second is that one combat lasts an hour and a half. Are you all extremely new to the game? Even with newer players in the mix, I find a Deadly encounter takes something like 40 minutes. Medium encounters rarely take more than 20. I recommend reading https://theangrygm.com/manage-combat-like-a-dolphin/

[MaxWilson]

That's likely your problem. Well two of them really.

Unless they're facing three Deadly encounters per Long Rest with a short rest between each, they're not doing enough tougher smaller number encounters.

Technically it's rather hard to fit three Deadly encounters into the encounter budget unless each one is just barely Deadly, and at some levels it can't be done at all. E.g. level 6 Deadly encounters start at 5600 XP, but you've only got 16,000 XP for the day. 5600 x 3 = 16,800 XP, over budget.

But the real issue here is that encounter difficulty rating (Easy/Medium/Hard/Deadly) has very little to do with actual encounter difficulty, and parties vary wildly in their capabilities--some parties can defeat any number of straightforward Medium/Hard encounters without any significant resource expenditure (just caltrops/arrows/maybe a Healing Kit charge or two, plus at-will stuff like grappling and Hypnotic Gaze) so non-Deadly attrition just doesn't happen. Other parties are filled with Smite-happy paladins and wizards who will gladly blow a 9th level spell slot on an upcast Fireball IX on the first monster they see that day.

The OP doesn't necessarily have to do more encounters--small-but-tough is fine, and using up 100%+ of your adventuring day XP budget is also fine. You may find you want to go beyond that, or you may find that you want to stick within that budget but use trickier or smarter monsters. In that case this thread may interest you: [DM challenge] What is the nastiest arena-style adventuring day you can create? Lvl 9 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600637-DM-challenge-What-is-the-nastiest-arena-style-adventuring-day-you-can-create-Lvl-9)

I like to mock 5E difficulty ratings extremely overhyped unless you're deliberately trying to game the difficulty (an encounter with even a tiny chance that the PCs will fail is labeled "Deadly") but that thread is all about trying to game the difficulty with the toughest monster combos.

[Tanarii]

The OP doesn't necessarily have to do more encounters--small-but-tough is fine, and using up 100%+ of your adventuring day XP budget is also fine. You may find you want to go beyond that, or you may find that you want to stick within that budget but use trickier or smarter monsters. In that case this thread may interest you: [DM challenge] What is the nastiest arena-style adventuring day you can create? Lvl 9 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600637-DM-challenge-What-is-the-nastiest-arena-style-adventuring-day-you-can-create-Lvl-9)
It depends how tough and how infrequent. I'll admit I was assuming the OPs response meant below adventuring day budget, and a single or maybe two encounters.

3 Deadly, or 2 somewhat above Deadly encounters with a quick Medium/Hard one in between, will generally do the trick if someone wants to have fewer but tougher encounters. That's the baseline. Skilled players, ones with good CharOp skills (especially building as a team), or ones with above expected magic items can of course punch above that baseline.

[sithlordnergal]

Well, ignoring that Zombies are immune to Sleep (it doesn't affect Undead)

You know, you're absolutely right. I missed that bit in the spell description. I had only checked the Zombie stat block, which doesn't list Unconcious as a status that they're immune to.

Interestingly, Zombies aren't immune to exhaustion either...so it seems Zombies must rest. Or else they can take levels of exhaustion.

[stoutstien]

You know, you're absolutely right. I missed that bit in the spell description. I had only checked the Zombie stat block, which doesn't list Unconcious as a status that they're immune to.

Interestingly, Zombies aren't immune to exhaustion either...so it seems Zombies must rest. Or else they can take levels of exhaustion.

Or fear, charm, and a few other things that will make you go huh.

[J-H]

The DM has the ability to modify monster stat blocks at will, just be consistent about it. I would have no problem ruling that mindless undead are immune to sleep or exhaustion.

I'd keep fear though, as that's a traditional effect of Turn Undead. Even a slug fears pain.

[stoutstien]

The DM has the ability to modify monster stat blocks at will, just be consistent about it. I would have no problem ruling that mindless undead are immune to sleep or exhaustion.

I'd keep fear though, as that's a traditional effect of Turn Undead. Even a slug fears pain.

I think turn undead should be the the exception to a general fear immunity that mindless undead have. Who know it might make it a worthwhile CD once I a bluemoon