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Prophaniti
2007-10-18, 05:56 PM
Ok, so in my homebrew world, there are no directly acting deities. There is a God, but he takes a very lighthanded approach to governing creation. Like Ao in FR, very few people even know about him and he has no clerics. Religions on the other hand are rampant, much like in the real world. There are clerics of many of the religions who wield very real power in the names of their causes. The reason they can still cast spells is that they are actually using the same source of power as a wizard or sorcerer, they just believe it's different, and thus it behaves differently. (This ties into how Magic itself works in my setting, but that's a long, probably boring discussion.)

Anyway, the crux of the problem is this: because clerics are still out there, I'd like Paladins to also be still out there. However, because of the nature of Magic in my world as the source of power for clerics and pallys, only personal belief holds bearing on whether or not they HAVE power, paladins pose a fluff problem.

If I keep them LG only, I'd have to give them all what amounts to the Absolute Conviction ability of the SBI (Comp Adv) because if the believe they are still acting in accordance with their religion, they wouldnt lose their powers.

The second option is to eliminate the alignment restriction. While I like this one the most fluff-wise, it works the least crunch-wise, since current pally abilities are tailored to, well, smite evil... Wouldnt a True Neutral paladin be just as likely to smite the good guys whom he feels are upsetting the cosmic balance?

The third option is to do away with the Paladin class altogether. Dont think this hasnt tempted me. But, I know a few of the people I regularly game with like to play pallys, and I dont want them to feel like I'm chopping up the RAW completely. I may do that eventually with this setting, but for now, I'd like to keep the rules at least close to what everyones expensive books say.

So, the question is, which option(s) would you pick and why? thoughts, feelings, ideas, etc.

Or is there another way entirely to approach paladins that I have not thought of?

Jasdoif
2007-10-18, 06:18 PM
You might take a look at Fax's How-It-Should-Be Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551). The mantles are very behavior-oriented, it seems like a good fit for paladins who get their powers because they believe they have them.

Lord Zentei
2007-10-18, 06:28 PM
Perhaps you can simply state that it's not only belief in how the magic works that matters, but also the state of mind of the caster. After all, the power must be channeled and focused by the caster's mind somehow, and not everyone can do it (it requires years of training).

For instance, the paladin's branch of magic might require intense mental discipline such that he must be Lawful (as for the Monk).

Also, you could argue that negative emotions and thoughts are detrimental to the delicate balance of the paladin's discipline, such that he must be good aligned and cannot be evil, or he must somehow reestablish his psychological "ideal state" he previously held.

Similar fluff regarding mental discipline and balance could also be used for other spellcasting classes, thus reinforcing their belief systems, and existing in tandem with them.

Roderick_BR
2007-10-18, 08:17 PM
If "divine" power comes from pure faith, paladins could be like a extreme version of clerics, where they are powered by pure belief in their ways.
Use the variant paladins, allowing for at least 4 different types: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm
Then, make it like the Crusader from ToB: Instead of a deity, they worship a philosophy, an ideal. They use martial training and mental discipline to get access to their special abilities.

osyluth
2007-10-18, 11:02 PM
paladins bad!

Xefas
2007-10-18, 11:35 PM
I suggest you take Jasdoif's suggestion and use Fax's homebrewed paladin (which he links to in his post).

However, if you don't want to do that, then you could always change the paladin's abilities to work on anyone who 1) they believe are a very real danger to their cause and 2) have a different alignment than the paladin. So Smite Evil just becomes "Smite Differentness"

Riffington
2007-10-19, 10:24 AM
What if only one or two religions actually produced Paladins.
To be a Paladin, you must be in proper communion with your church, which implies following and championing its doctrines of faith. And those churches could be Lawful Good. Other churches might have different holy warriors, just not Paladins.
Years of sermons/theologic training, or regular contact with a confessor/priest should be enough to keep your Paladins on the proper path.

Nostri
2007-10-19, 10:35 AM
Another way you could do it would be to use the Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana (also found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin)). Though I think that adding Absolute Conviction is a good idea....I might even do that in my game since I'm nixing alignment in favor of the aliegence system from d20 Modern.

Talanic
2007-10-19, 01:00 PM
Agreed again on Fax's paladin variant. It's pretty sweet.

Spacefrog
2007-10-19, 01:50 PM
You could say that there is some kind of real but impersonal divine force of lawful-goodness that can power a paladin's spells and things. A paladin might believe they get spells from a deity, but they're actually getting them through the force of their own lawful-goodness.

puppyavenger
2007-10-19, 06:17 PM
Why are there never any palidens with an N in there alignment?

Triaxx
2007-10-20, 07:15 AM
If it's just the feeling of the Paladin as a holy crusader you're after then Fax Celestis has a good take on it. This is my alternative to the Paladin.


Cavalier
Alignment: Any Lawful.
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: The Cavalier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int) Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int Modifier) x3
Skill Points at Each additional Level: 2 + Int Modifier


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+1|
+0|
+0|Lay on Hands, Aura of Law 1/day
2nd|
+2|
+2|
+0|
+0|Knightly Grace, Bonus Feat
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Smite Foe 1/day
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Improved Shield Bash
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Dodge
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat, Smite Foe 2/day
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Aura of Law 2/day
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Celestial Mount 1st-Tier
9th|
+9/+4|
+7|
+2|
+2|Smite Foe 3/day
10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+8|
+3|
+3|
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+3|
+3|Smite Foe 4/day
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+9|
+3|
+3|Cleric Domain-1st, Lance Knight
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat, Celestial Mount 2nd-Tier, Aura of Law 3/day
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+10|
+4|
+4|Smite Foe 5/day
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+4|
+4|Combat Reflexes
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+11|
+4|
+4|Cleric Domain-2nd
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Smite Foe 6/day
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+12|
+5|
+5|Cleric Domain-3rd
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+13|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat, Celestial Mount 3rd-Tier[/table]

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Cavaliers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Lay on Hands: As per the Paladin ability.

Aura of Law: Aura of Law is a Cavalier's final defense. Used when foes close in around him the Cavalier summons his knowledge of right and law, and projects a feeling of defenslessness and clumsiness against neutral and chaotic foes. Neutral foes take a -1 penalty to AC and BAB, while Chaotic Foes take a -2 penalty to AC and BAB. This effect lasts for 1 round per Cavalier level. The aura can be resisted by a (DC10 + Cavalier level + Cavalier's CHA mod) Will save. A Cavalier may use Aura of Law once per day at first level, and gains additional uses every seven levels.

Smite Foe: As per the Smite Evil ability, but only against Chaotic or Neutral Foes. A Cavalier gains one use at third level, and an additional use every three levels there after.

Knightly Grace: At 2nd level, a Cavalier has been trained to fight on horseback, and when mounted on a horse or pony gains a +2 competence bonus when attempting to control an untrained animal. When mounted on a warhorse, or warpony, the Cavalier gains a +1 bonus to mounted melee attacks.

Bonus Feat: A Cavalier is granted bonus feat in addition to those she normally receives.

Improved Shield Bash: At 4th level Cavalier is treated as having the Improved Shield Bash feat while mounted, even if he or she does not meet the requirements.

Dodge: From 5th level on, when mounted a Cavalier is treated as having the dodge feat even if he or she does not meet the requirements for it.

Cleric Domain: A Cavalier, while not necessarily a religious warrior is looked upon with favor by his or her god. At 13th level, a Cavalier may choose one of his or her gods domain's, and use the first level domain power as a Cleric of one quarter the Cavalier's level. At 17th level, the Cavalier gains the second level domain power, as a cleric of one quarter Cavalier level, and at 1th, gains a third level domain power, as a cleric one-quarter of the Cavalier's level.

Combat Reflexes: If he has not taken it at an earlier level, at 16th level, the Cavalier is treated as having Combat Reflexes.

Lance Knight: At 12th level, the Cavalier has become a master of mounted combat, and as such is able to deal double damage when charging with a Lance, Sword, or Axe and Shield. The Cavalier's BAB, and chance to hit rolls are unaffected. The Cavalier also is able to disregard the -2 AC penalty while charging mounted.

Noble Steed: At 8th Level, a Cavalier may spend 1d4 days familiarizing himself with a particular mount, and bind himself to it. In doing so, it becomes a first tier mount. At level 14, it becomes a second tier mount, and at level 20, it becomes a third tier mount. While mounted on his Noble Mount, the Cavalier gains a +1 to his Reflex and Will saves.
If the Cavalier's Noble Steed is killed, it takes a year and a day to become familiar enough with another mount to replace it. Upon the steeds death, the Cavalier loses 200xp per level, with a fort save for half. In addition, the Cavalier must make a fort save, or be treated as having one half his total ride skill until he gains another Steed. Making the fort save reduces the penalty to three-quarters his ride skill. If the Cavalier's Steed is resurrected, the penalty to his ride skill is negated.

Noble Steed
{table=head]Tier|HD|Natural <br> Armor|Str. Adj.|Special
1st|
+2|
+2|
+1|Improved Mounted Combat, DR5/Silver
2nd|
+4|
+4|
+2|Shield Mount
3rd|
+6|
+6|
+4|Mounted Archery, DR10/Silver[/table]

The VP
2007-10-20, 09:45 AM
Why are there never any palidens with an N in there alignment?

Rules for Paladin variants using the Neutral alignments are in Dragon magazines 310 (NG, LN, TN, CN) and 312 (NE). The campaign world I created and am currently using doesn't have as much of an emphasis on Good vs Evil as some others, so only includes the Enforcer (LN), Incarnate (TN), and Anarch (CN) variants. In a previous game I played a CN dwarf Paladin (Anarch) and it's still one of my favourite characters.

Maroon
2007-10-20, 10:57 AM
Instead of relying on personal belief, a Paladin's power could rely on the belief of others. Basically, just as a Cleric can believe in himself to do magic, people can believe in a Paladin to do magic. Smite Evil, for instance, could only work on those who see themselves as an enemy to the Paladin in question, and a Paladin would lose his powers if, say, his clerical order excommunicated him. Anything that's bad enough to stop people believing he is their saviour/champion/avatar of god. Atonement would be to restore both the Paladin's faith as the faith of others in him.

mordicai
2007-10-20, 11:24 AM
I say just get rid of alignments entirely, & let the Paladin smite whomever he or she wants...it isn't like it is that powerful an ability. Detect "heresy" if you want, or I've always been fond of "Find Greatest Foe" to replace Detect Evil.

Warlord JK
2007-10-21, 12:33 AM
You could make paladins like where monks, where they are raised in a "monastery" but instead they learn to be good and adhere to law. These paladins channel positive energy from the, say, Positive Energy plane to smite evil. Basically, a paladin doesn't get his powers from a god, but more so from positive energy channeled directly from the Positive Energy plane.

puppyavenger
2007-10-21, 04:02 PM
But positive energy isint good.

Prophaniti
2007-10-22, 06:14 PM
hey, sorry I haven't replied to the great ideas. Been busy with a new baby!

So far I like Fax's Pally thread the best because I'm playing in a modified FR universe. When I start DMing my own, I'll probably keep the alignment system merely as a rough guideline for a characters average behavior (would they balk at sacrificing an innocent for power, etc), while paladins and even clerics will be people trained by certain official churches. Alignment will no longer drastically affect gameplay like it does now. Ex: All sentient creatures from the Material plane will not be affected by Protection from (alignment) or detect (alignment) spells. These will protect against outsiders, undead and aberations mostly. Whether one is viewed as evil or not depends on what your actions are and how they are viewed by the society in question. The idea being that my world is as moraly ambiguous as the real one, and a characters actions, attitude and alignment can change day to day based on the choices they make.

A lot of great ideas. Thanks again for the help. It's like I have my own personal thinktank! You guys are great.:smallsmile:

StickMan
2007-10-22, 06:21 PM
Just make Paladins Good only that way they are champions of good no matter how they want to do it. A champion who saves your life is always welcome.

AjaxTorbin
2007-10-22, 06:45 PM
it looks like you have much the same problem i had in my world. i focus less on straight good Vs. evil and more on strategy and quickly moving events.
Example: one enemy my PC’s just ‘acquired’ is the lawful neutral ranger who's the sheriff of a small town.. One party member got drunk and tore up a tavern. Then he refused to be disarmed by the guards. One thing led to another, and BAM, the ranger kills an elf. They now hate the ranger, even though in any other circumstance they would be allies. good is relative.
Anyway, the fix I made is just to change the ‘flavor’ of paladins, they are rare and more of a martial crusader type. That and I suggest that anyone wanting to play a paladin look at Knight (PHB2) instead.

Prophaniti
2007-10-22, 06:55 PM
Actually, I'm thinking more of a return to the old world definition of Paladin. It's a title given by a church, marking one as an official agent. The acutal function of the Paladin office will vary depending on the church in question, but with the main theme of them being the military arm of the religion, charged with everything from protecting church property to hunting down heretics and the like. Should one wish to play a Paladin, they simply need a suitable background in one of the larger churches in my world. As above, alignment will no longer restrict you on classes or items because it is not a concrete thing. I believe I will still use Fax's paladin mod, but restrictions on mantles will be based on your particular church rather than your alignment.

This is, of course, merely a small part of the World I have planned and will only become truly relevant if someone wishes to run a paladin or if the party has run-ins with the various churches. I plan on there being at least 3 major churches that wield serious political and actual power in the various kingdoms and nations of the land, as well and uncountable smaller ones ranging in size from regional to a single congregation/cult. The congregation/cult distinction will be based on who you ask about the group of course, a detractor or a believer.

The main thing I plan to explore with this aspect of my world is the contrasts between faith and doubt, right and wrong, good and evil, and how all of these can change drastically in any given situation.

My world isnt supposed to be just one big moral dilema of course, I just felt this area needed a lot of work.