How Good Is Arcane Trickster Actually?

[Bartmanhomer]

I check out this Arcane Trickster prestige class and it's pretty decent with its requirements and abilities. So my question is how good is Arcane Trickster actually? (I sound like False Swipe Gaming when explaining how good a Pokemon actually in competitive play on Youtube.)

[BlueWitch]

One of my most favorite classes actually. You get loads of skills and nice spell progression so you'll have lots of options On and Off the Battlefield.

The cap is pretty sweet too. Surprise Spell lets you add your Sneak Attack to your spells. For Area of Effect types this is pretty sexy. It's like an Empowered Spell for free.

The only downside really are the HP and BAB. But spells can make up for these.

[Bartmanhomer]

One of my most favourite classes actually. You get loads of skills and nice spell progression so you'll have lots of options On and Off the Battlefield.

The cap is pretty sweet too. Surprise Spell lets you add your Sneak Attack to your spells. For Area of Effect types, this is pretty sexy. It's like an Empowered Spell for free.

The only downside really is the HP and BAB. But spells can make up for these.

Oh wow. Awesome sauce. It must be a very good prestige class. :smile:

[tyckspoon]

Oh wow. Awesome sauce. It must be a very good prestige class. :smile:

Should be noted the previous poster was referring to the Pathfinder version of Arcane Trickster, which is notably better than the 3.5 original - it has reduced entry requirements so you can start doing your thing earlier and easier, plus at least a few real class features like the mentioned Surprise Spells.

The 3.5 Arcane Trickster is.. underwhelming, at best. To start with you have weirdly high entry requirements - 3rd level arcane spells and 2d6 Sneak Attack means your most straightforward entry is after level 8 with something like Wizard 5/Rogue 3. You have the Mystic Theurge problem where before you start your combo-class you're both an underleveled Wizard and an underleveled Rogue. When you do get in you have a terrible base chassis, with only d4 HP plus 1/2 BAB progression, and only base 4 skill points per level.. however you still have most of the Rogue's skill list and are probably going to be expected to keep up with the Rogue's skill point spending (Hide/Move Silent/Spot/Listen/Disable Device/Search.. oh wait we're already spending too many skill points! Hope you didn't want to also keep your Spellcraft or Use Magic Device or Knowledges up..)

You do at least get full progression in your Sneak Attack and casting progression; both traits advance at the same rate a single-class Wizard or Rogue would get. But instead of generally useful bonus feats or the higher-level Rogue special abilities, you get.. up to 3/day the ability to perform a very limited set of skill checks from a not-impressively-far-away distance, and up to 2/day you can make a Sneak Attack without the normal requirements. A single Sneak Attack on one Attack. These are not great abilities.

In 3.5, Arcane Trickster is mostly something you take after you've already completed a better skills+spells theurge class (Unseen Seer or Daggerspell Mage or something, there's a few ok options) because for all its flaws it still serves the build better than just taking straight Rogue or straight Wizard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm with Tyckspoon on this one. It's good filler but there are better rogue/caster blending PrCs.

The class features aren't awful but they're nothing to write home about either.

The requirements are just bad. You've gotta cheese past one of them if you want to take the class seriously. Grok this though: Illumian Beguiler 2/ rogue 1/ SA Thug Fighter 1 with precocious apprentice and improved sigil krau can take arcane trickster 1 at level 5. In fact, that you can cheese into it before 5 is about the only thing it's really got going for it.

That's about what you'd expect for an early PrC though, I suppose.

[Bartmanhomer]

Should be noted the previous poster was referring to the Pathfinder version of Arcane Trickster, which is notably better than the 3.5 original - it has reduced entry requirements so you can start doing your thing earlier and easier, plus at least a few real class features like the mentioned Surprise Spells.

The 3.5 Arcane Trickster is.. underwhelming, at best. To start with you have weirdly high entry requirements - 3rd level arcane spells and 2d6 Sneak Attack means your most straightforward entry is after level 8 with something like Wizard 5/Rogue 3. You have the Mystic Theurge problem where before you start your combo-class you're both an underleveled Wizard and an underleveled Rogue. When you do get in you have a terrible base chassis, with only d4 HP plus 1/2 BAB progression, and only base 4 skill points per level.. however you still have most of the Rogue's skill list and are probably going to be expected to keep up with the Rogue's skill point spending (Hide/Move Silent/Spot/Listen/Disable Device/Search.. oh wait we're already spending too many skill points! Hope you didn't want to also keep your Spellcraft or Use Magic Device or Knowledges up..)

You do at least get full progression in your Sneak Attack and casting progression; both traits advance at the same rate a single-class Wizard or Rogue would get. But instead of generally useful bonus feats or the higher-level Rogue special abilities, you get.. up to 3/day the ability to perform a very limited set of skill checks from a not-impressively-far-away distance, and up to 2/day you can make a Sneak Attack without the normal requirements. A single Sneak Attack on one Attack. These are not great abilities.

In 3.5, Arcane Trickster is mostly something you take after you've already completed a better skills+spells theurge class (Unseen Seer or Daggerspell Mage or something, there's a few ok options) because for all its flaws it still serves the build better than just taking straight Rogue or straight Wizard.Underwhelming in a good or bad way? :confused:


I'm with Tyckspoon on this one. It's good filler but there are better rogue/caster blending PrCs.

The class features aren't awful but they're nothing to write home about either.

The requirements are just bad. You've gotta cheese past one of them if you want to take the class seriously. Grok this though: Illumian Beguiler 2/ rogue 1/ SA Thug Fighter 1 with precocious apprentice and improved sigil krau can take arcane trickster 1 at level 5. In fact, that you can cheese into it before 5 is about the only thing it's really got going for it.

That's about what you'd expect for an early PrC though, I suppose.

Cool. :smile:

[gorfnab]

Here is a handbook that has some information on building characters using Arcane Trickster, Unseen Seer, and other prestige classes that advance casting and sneak attack.
Sneak Attacking Spellcasters Handbook (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1240)

[Silvercrys]

3.5 Arcane Trickster is pretty not good. There are several other classes that fill its niche better like Unseen Seer, Spellwarp Sniper, and Daggerspell Mage. A few levels of it aren't bad -- it has full spellcasting progression and sneak attack every odd level -- but... yeah.

Something like Wizard 4/Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 8/Arcane Trickster 7 is a fine build, really. You get 8d6 sneak attack and only lose one caster level.... Your attack bonus and HD are pretty bad, but no worse than straight Wizard 20.

I'd go with Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 10/Unseen Seer 5 with the Master Spellthief feat, myself, but I have an inexplicable fondness for Daggerspell Mage.

[nedz]

I build lots of Rogue/Mage type characters, but I never use Arcane Trickster because of the requirements.

I prefer to use Unseen Seer, but it's quite a challenge getting Sorcerer into that — at least without being useless at low level — due to the 2 x 1st level divination spells requirement.

[Bartmanhomer]

I build lots of Rogue/Mage type characters, but I never use Arcane Trickster because of the requirements.

I prefer to use Unseen Seer, but it's quite a challenge getting Sorcerer into that — at least without being useless at a low level — due to the 2 x 1st level divination spells requirement.

I check out Unseen Seer and that prestige class is a better choice than the Arcane Trickster.

[Droningbass]

I love the idea of the Arcane Trickster. Sneaky mages/magical thieves are one of my favorite fantasy tropes! That being said, it's hard to be the master of the roles from two completely different classes- which is why I think that Arcane Trickster seems a bit underwhelming in 3.5.

Here's what could make the Arcane Trickster a great prestige class:
-Full Casting Progression
-Full Sneak Attack Progression
-Thematic Powers (Ranged Legerdemain, Impromptu Sneak Attack)

Here's what could make the Arcane Trickster an underwhelming prestige class:
-Limited Uses and Specific Rules of Thematic Powers
-Loss of Caster Level to Enter Prestige Class
-Loss of Sneak Attack Levels to Enter Prestige Class
-Skill Requirements are difficult for those who are primarily casters

Now - I think that even though the Arcane Trickster can be a little underwhelming - it's still a pretty solid choice if you want to be that classic sneaky mage! I think that you can make it even better if you build to it carefully using two of the classes mentioned above.

The Spellthief class (from the Complete Adventurer) is a great starter for building towards an Arcane Trickster - especially if you use the Master Spellthief feat (from the Complete Scoundrel) to stack your caster levels, stack your steal spells, and even wear some armor without a chance of spell failure! You might even consider using a couple levels of the Unseen Seer prestige class (from the Complete Mage) if you don't want to lose more than one caster level before Arcane Trickster. I always hate having to forfeit my caster levels for anything else - so this sort of build is my favorite way to get a sneaky mage:

Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 2/Arcane Trickster X/Other X

I agree that the Unseen Seer is a great prestige class, but not if you want to lose your spellcasting power. Each time you gain a Divination Spell Power boost from Unseen seer, you have to forfeit your caster level for all other spells... and I just can't stand that.

Anyway, I'm sorry for rambling away - but I think that the Arcane Trickster is fun to play, and is a great compromise if you're trying to try to master the roles of two completely different classes.

[Jack_Simth]

With a little work, you can get into it losing only a single caster level: A Rogue-1/Wizard-4/Unseen Seer-1 entry fits the bill (3rd level spells, 2d6 sneak attack).

If you can trade out your Wizard bonus feat at 10th (pay for a Chaos Shuffle), you could possibly go Wizard-10/Arcane Trickster-10 via Tome of Battle and Assasin's Stance... although you'll burn a lot of feats getting there, and have some problems with class skills.

[Psyren]

As others have said, the 3.5 version is lame on its own, but can work well in a build with other rogue/caster PrCs like Unseen Seer or Spellwarp Sniper.

The Pathfinder one meanwhile is very good on its own - easier requirements (Especially with Accomplished Sneak Attacker (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/accomplished-sneak-attacker/)) and an actual capstone.

[nedz]

You can counter the effect of Divination Spell Power with Practiced Spellcaster. With a build like Jack's there is no negative effect here.

This does put a lot of players off, but many spells are either level capped or simply have a shorter duration etc. The cost is smaller than you might think, even if your build doesn't mitigate this completely.

You can also weaponise Divination Spell Power with Hunter's Eye - which you can pick up with Advanced Learning.

[Droningbass]

You can counter the effect of Divination Spell Power with Practiced Spellcaster. With a build like Jack's there is no negative effect here.

I see what you're saying here about the Practiced Spellcaster feat. I guess that I was under the impression that the penalty imposed by the Unseen Seer's Divine Spell Power would have been different than a loss of caster levels due to levels in a non-casting class. But, after re-reading the rules... it is pretty effective way to get around that penalty!

[liquidformat]

there is a pretty good and in-depth evaluation of Arcane Trickster here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?601838-PrC-Evaluation-Thread).