So, is it just me, or is Tree Stride awful?

[Aotrs Commander]

So, I was looking for any good druid archtypes (don't appear to really be many, at least according to any of the handbooks...!) and looked at the World Walker, which gets to... Actually, the wording is a bit ambiguous, whether you actually get a daily use of Tree Stride or just one jump, but, I read further down and it said "13th level, you can jump to a tree 100 miles away!"

And I was like... "what?" *looks up tree stride*

Best case 3000 feet per jump? So at minimum caster level, for the cost of nine full-round actions, you can travel about five miles (on your own); which sounds kinda good until you realise this is at the SAME LEVEL AS TELEPORT. Which can take you (and three other dudes) anywhere (not just Places With A Tree), up to 900 miles (admittedly with some error chance) in a single round.

I mean there's thematic differences and there's just "this spell should probably be level 3, tops." A couple of percent error is not worth an 1800% decrease in range!

Aside from the dubious secondary benefit of being able to hide in (or get killed in!) a tree, I can't see any use for it unless you have no other options available. With it being a full round action to stride, I can't see any benefit even in a combat sitatuion.

Am, I like, just missing something here?

[SimonMoon6]

Druid spells aren't as good as wizard spells.

*Shrug*

[Ruethgar]

This reminds me of a story I heard recently. Modern setting, everyone was pretty much modern except the Druid who’s people were being killed off by this company. They went and stormed the corporate towers but weren’t making headway because of the enchantments banning teleportation. Then the Druid noticed in the destruction that there were bonsai trees and other small office trees in many of the offices. Turns out, that hadn’t warded against Tree Stride. So party hop in a bag of holding, he transformed into a hummingbird and tree strode past everything to the CEOs office to get what they needed.

Neat use, but yeah, in general tree stride is very meh.

[Aotrs Commander]

Druid spells aren't as good as wizard spells.

*Shrug*

Yes, sure; but Tree Stride isn't on a comparable level to other 5th level druid spells, like the one that allows the druid to literally bring the dead back to life. "I can get get five miles more distance provided I actually want to travel less far than I would have riding on horseback1" doesn't really cut it.

I mean, I agree, it shouldn't just be as good as Teleport, but it ought to at least be only one order of magnitude worse...

Tree Stride, one feels, should either be an overland transport spell or a combat-range spell. The range it has (and the action it has) qualifies it as neither; it's not useful for combat aplications and it's not far enoguh fro travel (and awkward to boot, since I had to grab my calculation out to work out the distance in miles).

I mean, you could replace those 1000-foot incrcements with a mile and it'd still be way worse than Teleport, but at least a 9th level druid in an oak forest could make at least ONE day's worth of travel with a casting.

Or cut it down to a move or swift action and then you could at least Nigthcrawler a bit in combat, maybe?



Yes, I'm aware I've probably spent more effort griping about a ridiculously minor issue that it warrents.



1Unless you have a mean DM *cough* who actually makes horses travel at sensible speeds overland, so you don't actually move further, just carry more, in which case you (and only you) might get 5 miles further... But you could probably get that by just... Wild shaping into an eagle and FLYING.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I suggest Menhir Savant for any PF Druid. It's both got a lot of fun niche stuff and some fairly strong abilities, and you don't lose much of value in return.

It gets Transport Via Plants to use (Wis mod) times per day, which has unlimited range and is probably what you were hoping for out of Tree Stride.

[Cruiser1]

Tree Stride (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/treeStride.htm) (Drd 5, PHb) is effectively Druid version of Greater Dimension Door (Sor/Wiz 5, SpC), which allows you to Dimension Door i.e. short range teleport several times during the spell duration.

The Druid spell Transport Via Plants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transportViaPlants.htm) (Drd 6, PHb) is generally considered better, since it has no range limit. That makes it like Greater Teleport one spell level earlier than Wizards get it, with the limitation that it goes from tree to tree.

I'm in a campaign where the Druids have set up a secret "Tree Network" around the world, planting trees of the same type (casting Plant Growth to make them big enough to transport through, especially if they're Wild Shaped into something small). They then share a description of these trees to other Druid groves, allowing quick travel and information sharing around the world using the spell Transport Via Plants. :smallbiggrin:

[MisterKaws]

A couple of percent error is not worth an 1800% decrease in range!

It's actually a 99.938% decrease in range. A decrease of over 100% would put it into negative miles, and then we'd be getting metaphysical real fast.

[Crake]

Tree stride is more for tactical teleportation rather than strategical. In a forest, using it to flank enemy positions, or even just to kite while you harass them with other spells is the real strength of tree stride. If you're measuring it in purely distance, yeah, it comes out mediocre, but distance isn't it's true purpose.

[crayzz]

Tree stride is more for tactical teleportation rather than strategical. In a forest, using it to flank enemy positions, or even just to kite while you harass them with other spells is the real strength of tree stride. If you're measuring it in purely distance, yeah, it comes out mediocre, but distance isn't it's true purpose.

I agree, but tree stride is concentration so you wont be able to cast other spells while its active.

But yeah, it's for out maneuvering enemies, springing a trap in front of them then jumping into the trees behind them, hit and run tactics, etc. Its kinda niche and a little under powered, but I dont think it's terrible.

[Crake]

I agree, but tree stride is concentration so you wont be able to cast other spells while its active.

But yeah, it's for out maneuvering enemies, springing a trap in front of them then jumping into the trees behind them, hit and run tactics, etc. Its kinda niche and a little under powered, but I dont think it's terrible.

Uhh, no it isnt? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/treeStride.htm)

You might be thinking of 5e tree stride, which is concentration, but even in 5e, concentration just means you can't use other concentration spells, right?

[NNescio]

I mean there's thematic differences and there's just "this spell should probably be level 3, tops." A couple of percent error is not worth an 1800% decrease in range!

It's actually a 99.938% decrease in range. A decrease of over 100% would put it into negative miles, and then we'd be getting metaphysical real fast.

It goes 17x times the distance of a normal teleport but in the opposite direction of where you're trying to go.

[sreservoir]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate that this spell apparently just incidentally fills the user's brain with knowledge of the locations of all other trees of the same kind in range? It's an easy detail to overlook, but ... wow.

[GrayDeath]

It goes 17x times the distance of a normal teleport but in the opposite direction of where you're trying to go.


So you just need to be confused about where youre going, and it becomes great?



Can we just take a moment to appreciate that this spell apparently just incidentally fills the user's brain with knowledge of the locations of all other trees of the same kind in range? It's an easy detail to overlook, but ... wow.

Indeed, this and its kiting abilities are its focus. As a "pure" transportation Spell its clearly rather....crap.

[Bronk]

I don't see how Tree Stride could be used as a good kiting tactic. It could be used for escaping (move action to enter a tree while the spell is up), hiding (can stay inside a tree for hours), and it would make a great secret entrance for a druid's lair too.

However, since the spell ends as soon as you leave the tree, you'd only get one kiting attack out of it. It would be better for ambushing (a move action or possibly a 5 foot step to leave a tree), except there's no provision in the spell to see outside of the tree!

Otherwise, it's just a flavorful druid style spell for NPCs.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's actually a 99.938% decrease in range. A decrease of over 100% would put it into negative miles, and then we'd be getting metaphysical real fast.

Sorry, I forgot to invert the percentage. Genuine brain fart.




I don't see how Tree Stride could be used as a good kiting tactic. It could be used for escaping (move action to enter a tree while the spell is up), hiding (can stay inside a tree for hours), and it would make a great secret entrance for a druid's lair too.

However, since the spell ends as soon as you leave the tree, you'd only get one kiting attack out of it. It would be better for ambushing (a move action or possibly a 5 foot step to leave a tree), except there's no provision in the spell to see outside of the tree!

But you can't even do THAT - if it was a Move action, I probably wouldn't have batted an eyeglow at is as much.

But...


Each transport is a full-round action. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/treeStride.htm)


Each transport is a full-round action. (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tree%20Stride)

...it's not.

An ambush where you step out of the tree an stand there gormlessly for a round while your would-be targets pummel you before you can do anything is not helpful. And as this is a full-round action, you can't use it to run away easily since unless you stand right next to the tree all the time, else it means it basically costs you one and a half rounds (at least a Move action to get to the tree, plus a full-round action next round to walk into that tree and out another one). It makes re-positioning very clumsey, since at the best case, you can't move and fire; you have to move, stand still a round while you presumably cast a spell and then move away again. You're basically cutting down your actions to once every other round.

Now, it's not impossible to do something with it, but it's horrendosuly clumsy and has a pretty narrow range of application. Heck, unless there's more than one of you doing it, it's nearly only any use for a single character (BBEG or a solo player) attempting to whittle away larger numbers. As a PC, you'll have effectively crippled your ability to contribute to the fight.



(If you actually remember Dimension Door also ends your action after using it (which is to be fair, something I only realised myself recently!), that's not too good at it either. (PF at least gives you a feat to bypass that restriction.))

[Bronk]

But you can't even do THAT - if it was a Move action, I probably wouldn't have batted an eyeglow at is as much.

But...

...it's not.

An ambush where you step out of the tree an stand there gormlessly for a round while your would-be targets pummel you before you can do anything is not helpful. And as this is a full-round action, you can't use it to run away easily since unless you stand right next to the tree all the time, else it means it basically costs you one and a half rounds (at least a Move action to get to the tree, plus a full-round action next round to walk into that tree and out another one). It makes re-positioning very clumsey, since at the best case, you can't move and fire; you have to move, stand still a round while you presumably cast a spell and then move away again. You're basically cutting down your actions to once every other round.

Now, it's not impossible to do something with it, but it's horrendosuly clumsy and has a pretty narrow range of application. Heck, unless there's more than one of you doing it, it's nearly only any use for a single character (BBEG or a solo player) attempting to whittle away larger numbers. As a PC, you'll have effectively crippled your ability to contribute to the fight.

The spell is one standard action to cast, 1 move action to get into a tree, one full round action to move from tree to tree, and either a move action or a 5 foot step to get out of a tree. Those are all separate actions that don't have to come one right after another. You could cast the spell, wait a while, move to a tree and then into a tree in one round, wait a while, transport to another tree, wait a while, then pop out and still have at least a standard action left over.

Now that I think about it, moving into a tree would give you total cover from anything outside, meaning that Tree Stride can defeat Dimensional Lock, which is an emanation preventing astral travel, and emanations are defeated by total cover. Not bad...

[Aotrs Commander]

The spell is one standard action to cast, 1 move action to get into a tree, one full round action to move from tree to tree, and either a move action or a 5 foot step to get out of a tree. Those are all separate actions that don't have to come one right after another. You could cast the spell, wait a while, move to a tree and then into a tree in one round, wait a while, transport to another tree, wait a while, then pop out and still have at least a standard action left over.

That's... Worse! I read it as moving into the tree and out of the other one was the only action required (which would, I suppose reasonably equate to two move actions), so at least you'd be into and out of one tree for your full-round action; your interpretations means you're getting maybe two actions every three rounds, provided, again, you're only stepping out of the tree and not moving anywhere, fractionally more if your let a 5-foot-step count instead of a move action.

Given most combats don't last more than four rounds, as PC you've basically done one action, and as an NPC, the PCs likely appreciate all the extra time to cast buff spells...




Now that I think about it, moving into a tree would give you total cover from anything outside, meaning that Tree Stride can defeat Dimensional Lock, which is an emanation preventing astral travel, and emanations are defeated by total cover. Not bad...

Aside from the fact the spell explictly says if that if the tree is destroyed, you die, yes. (First source I found that gave me tree hit points ws the D&D wiki, which can be unreliable (haven't got time to look for another one), which is AC 4, Hardness 5, 150 hits points. That's not actually particularly high; one of my typical parties could blend through that very quickly in a round, especially with such a low AC.)

Again, there are a few situations where that might be useful, but they are very far between.

[Darg]

You may move into a tree up to one time per caster level (passing from one tree to another counts only as moving into one tree). The spell lasts until the duration expires or you exit a tree. Each transport is a full-round action.

It would really depend on how you interpret the bolded parenthetical. If you take it at face value then every transport to a tree is one move into. Therefore one would use two move intos any time one enters a tree and transports. However, if you take the parenthetical as it's own statement then the only cost is when you actually move into a tree. This makes continuing to move through trees not count against your limit.

Taken as written, these are the only interpretations that can be derived from the description alone. Now if you take a look at the italicized portion of the quote, that only leaves the first mentioned interpretation as the correct one.

Personally, as a DM I would allow the spell to continue until all move intos are expended at least and would probably allow the second interpretation as the spell is really limited; in actions required, size of tree, and location of said trees. And you can't take anyone with you.

[crayzz]

Uhh, no it isnt? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/treeStride.htm)

You might be thinking of 5e tree stride, which is concentration, but even in 5e, concentration just means you can't use other concentration spells, right?

Sorry, you're right on both counts.

[Psyren]

I suggest Menhir Savant for any PF Druid. It's both got a lot of fun niche stuff and some fairly strong abilities, and you don't lose much of value in return.

It gets Transport Via Plants to use (Wis mod) times per day, which has unlimited range and is probably what you were hoping for out of Tree Stride.

This, Menhir Savant is pretty great in general.

But it would help, if you want suggestions on good Druid archetypes, to know what features about the base druid don't appeal to you and/or what abilities you would like to gain or emphasize.

[Crake]

Given most combats don't last more than four rounds, as PC you've basically done one action, and as an NPC, the PCs likely appreciate all the extra time to cast buff spells...

I feel like this is a common misconception on these forums. Either that, or people regularly fight single creatures that just stand there and take the blows. Pretty much all of the combats I run go for at least a minute (10 rounds), and usually involve a lot of moving tactical positioning, until a sort of equilibrium is reached and movement halts as people are in their best possible positions.

Take a moment to think about the environment treestride is useful for. In a forest, it's perfect for guerilla tactics against a spread out group. You can easily focus on a target, cause a lot of mayhem, and by the time any sort of reinforcement comes, you're already gone several hundred feet and ready to pop out, or alternatively, you can stay hidden for hours if they try to find you.

[nedz]

I feel like this is a common misconception on these forums. Either that, or people regularly fight single creatures that just stand there and take the blows. Pretty much all of the combats I run go for at least a minute (10 rounds), and usually involve a lot of moving tactical positioning, until a sort of equilibrium is reached and movement halts as people are in their best possible positions.

Take a moment to think about the environment treestride is useful for. In a forest, it's perfect for guerilla tactics against a spread out group. You can easily focus on a target, cause a lot of mayhem, and by the time any sort of reinforcement comes, you're already gone several hundred feet and ready to pop out, or alternatively, you can stay hidden for hours if they try to find you.

I think it depends upon play style. I routinely run encounters of 10+ rounds but some people never see this I guess ?

[Aotrs Commander]

It would really depend on how you interpret the bolded parenthetical. If you take it at face value then every transport to a tree is one move into. Therefore one would use two move intos any time one enters a tree and transports. However, if you take the parenthetical as it's own statement then the only cost is when you actually move into a tree. This makes continuing to move through trees not count against your limit.

Taken as written, these are the only interpretations that can be derived from the description alone. Now if you take a look at the italicized portion of the quote, that only leaves the first mentioned interpretation as the correct one.

Personally, as a DM I would allow the spell to continue until all move intos are expended at least and would probably allow the second interpretation as the spell is really limited; in actions required, size of tree, and location of said trees. And you can't take anyone with you.

I mean, yeah, it would be really really terrible if you counted walk into tree and teleport into other tree as two uses.

What I meant by this:


I read it as moving into the tree and out of the other one was the only action required (which would, I suppose reasonably equate to two move actions),

...was that I could see the spell writers making it a full-round action per transport having equated one move action to enter the tree and one move action to exit the one you just teleported to (all of which would be one use) to a full-round action.

(Apparently, my interpretation of "you are standing next to the tree; your full action this round is to basically teleport to standing next to the other tree" was more generous than I would have thought...!)




I feel like this is a common misconception on these forums. Either that, or people regularly fight single creatures that just stand there and take the blows. Pretty much all of the combats I run go for at least a minute (10 rounds), and usually involve a lot of moving tactical positioning, until a sort of equilibrium is reached and movement halts as people are in their best possible positions.

Speaking from practical experience.

A hard boss fight or something that is difficult (the long-range battle with the harpies with longbows the Rise of the Runelords party had for one example) aside - and that's only with the artificially inflated multiple integer'd hit point tanks of my Defiant template - more or less everything else rarely gets passed round three or four before the PCs have slaughtered it all.

That said, average party size is 6-8, which makes a lot of difference, I suspect, especially with players that work extremely well as a team.




This, Menhir Savant is pretty great in general.

But it would help, if you want suggestions on good Druid archetypes, to know what features about the base druid don't appeal to you and/or what abilities you would like to gain or emphasize.

Nothing in particular, I was just really plumbing the archtypes for a few selections anything that looked interesting (and was not mechanically terrible or overly specifically-Golarion-flavoured1) to port across as a final pass. I have, basically, finished now, since I started this thread. I decided at the last minute I'm am going to add the soul blade armoured archtype (which will be tomorrow) - the PF soulblade port, which I finished ridculously late last night was what promtped all this nonsense of the past couple of months), and, based on today's discussion MAYBE mehnir druid, but then I'm officially drawing a line under the character class stuff and calling it done. And spell-checking and basically getting ready to printing, when I get to it. Then there's with just a modest parse through Pathfinder's feats, and the spell/power lists (which are discrete enough I don't have to do it all at once); that sort of stuff is also more self-compartmentalised, so I can stop feeling like I have to put in what has effectively amounted to six days a week of more or less a second work day doing all this!



1Even thought we play more on Golarion in our weekly games than on my Dreemaenhyll on day-quests, I am not fond of too heavily specific world-flavoured stuff. If it's a concept that's broad enough, I might pinch it and open it out, but it's the same with prestidge classes. If it won't fit on Dreemaenhyll or anywhere else, it's not being okay'd.

(Yes, I do have rules and one antipaladin archtype specific to Dreemaenhyll - I'm allowed to be inconsistent with my own campaign world!)

[Darg]

I should also point out that nothing in the 3.5 version of the spell states anything about you not being able to make actions from within the tree's concealment such as casting spells, using weapons, drinking a potion, or others. It's total cover and total concealment and a version of dimension door that's usable many times over the spell's duration.

[Bronk]

That's... Worse!

Oh yeah, totally worse, especially if you want it to be like a regular teleport or dimension door.


I read it as moving into the tree and out of the other one was the only action required (which would, I suppose reasonably equate to two move actions), so at least you'd be into and out of one tree for your full-round action; your interpretations means you're getting maybe two actions every three rounds, provided, again, you're only stepping out of the tree and not moving anywhere, fractionally more if your let a 5-foot-step count instead of a move action.

I think the relevant parts of the spell would be:


You may move into a tree up to one time per caster level (passing from one tree to another counts only as moving into one tree). The spell lasts until the duration expires or you exit a tree. Each transport is a full-round action.

It's not great, but with each jump there would (hopefully!) be a new set of trees within range to choose from.



Aside from the fact the spell explictly says if that if the tree is destroyed, you die, yes. (First source I found that gave me tree hit points ws the D&D wiki, which can be unreliable (haven't got time to look for another one), which is AC 4, Hardness 5, 150 hits points. That's not actually particularly high; one of my typical parties could blend through that very quickly in a round, especially with such a low AC.)

If you were fleeing, you'd want to choose a tree equal to the threat. There are 'Massive Trees' mentioned, in the cover section I think, and you'd have to extrapolate their HP using the thickness of their wood.


Again, there are a few situations where that might be useful, but they are very far between.

Totally agree!


It would really depend on how you interpret the bolded parenthetical. If you take it at face value then every transport to a tree is one move into. Therefore one would use two move intos any time one enters a tree and transports. However, if you take the parenthetical as it's own statement then the only cost is when you actually move into a tree. This makes continuing to move through trees not count against your limit.

Taken as written, these are the only interpretations that can be derived from the description alone. Now if you take a look at the italicized portion of the quote, that only leaves the first mentioned interpretation as the correct one.

Personally, as a DM I would allow the spell to continue until all move intos are expended at least and would probably allow the second interpretation as the spell is really limited; in actions required, size of tree, and location of said trees. And you can't take anyone with you.

The bolded quote doesn't introduce any new information. You still have only used a move action to enter the first tree. For each additional tree, you use a full round action to teleport, which is changing location without movement.


I should also point out that nothing in the 3.5 version of the spell states anything about you not being able to make actions from within the tree's concealment such as casting spells, using weapons, drinking a potion, or others. It's total cover and total concealment and a version of dimension door that's usable many times over the spell's duration.

It also doesn't say that you can affect things outside the tree though. You could cast spells on yourself, but not out of the tree. Maybe two druids could fight each other if they were in the same tree at the same time?

Most times when a creature can phase into something, the ability will add what they can sense from inside, and what they need to do to affect those on the outside, like coming out a bit to attack. Unfortunately, that would end the spell.

A druid inside a tree would have to make listen checks to determine what was going on outside, unless they had a ring of x-ray vision or access to a clairvoyance spell. Oh, or I guess they could 'speak with plants' and just have the tree tell them what's going on...

[Unavenger]

This has given me a great idea for the world's most annoying encounter, though.

(And an actually good use for Call Lightning Storm, to boot).

[Darg]

The bolded quote doesn't introduce any new information. You still have only used a move action to enter the first tree. For each additional tree, you use a full round action to teleport, which is changing location without movement.



It also doesn't say that you can affect things outside the tree though. You could cast spells on yourself, but not out of the tree. Maybe two druids could fight each other if they were in the same tree at the same time?

Most times when a creature can phase into something, the ability will add what they can sense from inside, and what they need to do to affect those on the outside, like coming out a bit to attack. Unfortunately, that would end the spell.

A druid inside a tree would have to make listen checks to determine what was going on outside, unless they had a ring of x-ray vision or access to a clairvoyance spell. Oh, or I guess they could 'speak with plants' and just have the tree tell them what's going on...

There is nothing that says you can't only poke your head out to see things without exiting the tree and so on.

[Bronk]

There is nothing that says you can't only poke your head out to see things without exiting the tree and so on.

Well, it doesn't say you can either... as far as what's written, it's either in or out. Don't get me wrong though, I'd totally allow it, as well as just being able to see out of the tree in general. A lot of druid spells aren't very well thought out.

[denthor]

Two major differences...

1Teleport error chance
2 you must have at least stood or crystal ball scryed the location

Tree stride you know once you enter where the tree is 15 or 100's of miles never been there does not matter tree is there.