Banace question: Shiled proficiency for a Wizard

[Pinjata]

Hey guys,

so I have this noob in my game, who is totally in love at stacking AC as high as possible while playing a Wizard. He has his eyes on Staff of Defence and he asked me, if he could roleplay each session (5 sessions) as training with shield, that he would get a shield proficiency.

I generally said yes, since I think "game should be fun" is the main rule, but I wonder, what does playground think of this in terms of game balance.

thanks

[Dork_Forge]

Hey guys,

so I have this noob in my game, who is totally in love at stacking AC as high as possible while playing a Wizard. He has his eyes on Staff of Defence and he asked me, if he could roleplay each session (5 sessions) as training with shield, that he would get a shield proficiency.

I generally said yes, since I think "game should be fun" is the main rule, but I wonder, what does playground think of this in terms of game balance.

thanks

I'd say no, if they want prof then they should take the feats they need or dip out of Wizard for a level. This is just grabbing power for some minor RP without delaying spell progression.

[Trandir]

In terms of balance this is a bad idea. Proficiency should not be something to get without investing something in return.

For RP? Sure give him a staff of defense that looks like a shield or a shield that provides no AC and also no cons.

[Theaitetos]

He can try to train his familiar to carry the shield in front of him.

[ShadowSandbag]

Yeah, I would say give him a custom feat for this instead since he just wants the shield and not the armor proficiency. Maybe something like

Increase your Strength or Dexterity by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You become proficient with shields.
You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have a shield in one or both hands.

[stoutstien]

Id allow it if they traded ritual casting for it.

[Pinjata]

Point is, guy did not take light armor and medium armor proficiency(you need this for shield proficiency). Just SHIELD proficiency. I thought MAYBE.

[Keravath]

I'd generally say no since it is a free +2 to +5 to AC for no character investment besides "roleplaying", "I practice using my shield".

The game provides mechanisms either via feats or multiclassing which admittedly provide more than just shield proficiency but also require expending a significant resource.

If all they want is shield proficiency then perhaps a custom feat, as suggested, would be the way to go.

Consider that if you allow this, it allows other options.

Rogues who decide to "practice with the long bow" to gain proficiency.
Any class who decides to practice with heavy armor to gain proficiency.

The fae warlock who learns to use a long sword by practicing with it.

Being able to add whichever proficiency a character might be interested in just by saying "I spend 5 sessions practicing with it" is probably breaking the system in the long run. To be honest, you might as well just give full armor/shield/weapon/language and tool proficiencies to everyone.

Also, for comparison, learning a language or tool proficiency costs something like a year of downtime (not 5 session in game) so you might want to use that as a yard stick if you are going to allow it.

Finally, when a character multiclasses and picks up a bunch of new abilities, I usually understand this to be the culmination of a relatively long period of study/practice learning these new skills. From a narrative perspective, I don't usually have my characters wake up the next day suddenly having the lore and abilities of a completely new class.

Anyway, with a wizard and his desire to use a shield, I usually find the best way to address this mechanically is to multiclass one level of cleric assuming his wisdom is high enough.

[nickl_2000]

Is everyone else getting combat bonuses based on “training”?

If they are, then everyone is getting something, and the answer is go for it you can already adjust the CR off encounters. If they aren’t you are granting something to someone that no one else is getting, and the answer should be no.

[stoutstien]

Point is, guy did not take light armor and medium armor proficiency(you need this for shield proficiency). Just SHIELD proficiency. I thought MAYBE.

Shield proficiency is arguably better than both light and medium armor proficiency. A shield provides +2 AC and only costs an action and a free hand. Light armor is redundant with mage armor but does save a slot everyday. takes time to don/doff and heavy investment in Dex. Medium armor takes even longer to don/doff has a lower minimum and lower max Dex cost but provides less total AC and may cause disadvantage on stealth checks.

[Randomthom]

Maybe allow him to research a new spell that functions like mage armour but gives him a shield.

Shield of Force
Abjuration
Level 3
Target Self
Duration 8h
Cast time 1 action
For the duration, a shimmering field of abjurative force rests on the Wizard's arm of choice granting a +2 shield bonus to their armour class. While this spell is in effect, the hand is considered occupied as one wielding a shield would be. The spell ends if the shield is removed from the Wizard's arm for more than 1 minute or donned by another.

This spell does not stack with the Shield spell but is instead temporarily improved by it.

Casting at Higher Levels.
At 5th level the bonus increases to +3 and gains an additional +1 for every 2 spell levels thereafter (max +5 at 9th level).

Others could probably offer suggestions for tweaks to this but a 3rd level spell slot feels appropriate for this to me. 2nd feels like it would cheapen Shield of Faith too much (which requires concentration).

[Sparky McDibben]

I feel for you, Pinjata. You have an idea, you think, "Well, that's not going to break anything, surely?" And ask the Playground.

And everyone lines up to yell at you.

Look, a lot of whether this is "game-breaking" depends on the context of your game. Is this base D&D? Are you using feats? And so on.

Personally, I say go for it. Charge them downtime, make it clear you'll do the same for other characters on a case-by-case basis, and go for it.

Even better, make them find and convince a mentor who can be a useful hireling to the party and source of adventure hooks, rumors, etc. Maybe a grumpy dwarf? Or a hobgoblin who left his clan after losing his sword-hand during the last war?

[Damon_Tor]

so I have this noob in my game, who is totally in love at stacking AC as high as possible while playing a Wizard. He has his eyes on Staff of Defence and he asked me, if he could roleplay each session (5 sessions) as training with shield, that he would get a shield proficiency.

If he spent 5 sessions training with his shield then he's free to select a level of a different class on his next level up. A class that gives him proficiency with shields. After all, the time he's spent practicing with his shield is time he wasn't spending furthering his arcane studies.

EDIT: Slightly less snarky comment: Every class is given their armor proficiency and hit points with certain balance points in mind. Wizards and Sorcerers are "Full Casters+" because both of them can cast more spells per day than what their spell slots would normally allow, while other full casters that have better HP and/or armor proficiencies (clerics, druids and bards*) are mostly stuck with the standard slots available to them. So others here suggesting you "tax" him a spell slot are right to make that suggestion

*Yes, the Circle of the Land gives them a "Natural Recovery" which puts them on par with wizards and sorcerers in terms of spells per day. But that's a feature of their subclass, just as there are wizard and sorcerer subclasses which overcome the HP and/or AC disparity in a variety of ways.

[Corran]

It's not game breaking, no. But by doing this you open the flood gate. And once you start stacking more of such small benefits, you end up playing something completely different. Which could be fine for your table, though it will be likely that there will be balance issues at some point which you'll have to work out. Say no, and spare yourself fixing problems in the future. Plus, enjoying the game has nothing to do with playing with whatever sort of non typical advantage. In fact I'd say that these two are a bit contradictory.

[djreynolds]

Take a level in cleric

[Sorinth]

I think as a downtime activity it should be no problem, it's not much different then learning a skill/tool/language during downtime. It should also take longer then 5 sessions, which is what a couple weeks? If it was easy enough to learn that quickly then all wizards would learn it.

If he wanted to learn in game, then I would maybe do something like. Instead of getting +2AC, he gets to use his reaction to gain +2 AC against one attack and can't cast a spell other then a cantrip in his following turn. This limits the usefulness until enough in game time has passed for him to learn to use it well, while still giving him the feel of he's after.

[da newt]

I'd allow it if they burn a feat for it and I'd even throw in a +1 ST bump.

The PC would be much better off dipping cleric (or fighter or even druid).

[Sjappo]

It would be interesting to see when said wizard finds out he needs Warcaster to even cast most spells with a shield in one hand and his Staff of Defence in the other.

[da newt]

Staff of Defense is a focus so no issue, right?

The one thing I've run into w/ the Staff of Defense is if you RAW it (can only cast as action) or allow casting SHIELD as a reaction.

If you allow reaction casting a fairly low level character with 16 Dex, shield, and Staff of Defense is a potent AC combo (19 AC, 24 4x/day without using a spell slot). For tier 1 play it is borderline broken.

[Protolisk]

Staff of Defense is a focus so no issue, right?

The issue is somatic components. The focus only covers the cheap material components, but with a staff in one hand and a shield in another you can't do somatic components until you take Warcaster. Eve the Shield spell needs somatic components.

[Trandir]

The issue is somatic components. The focus only covers the cheap material components, but with a staff in one hand and a shield in another you can't do somatic components until you take Warcaster. Eve the Shield spell needs somatic components.

Well the staff does say holding and not wielding. You could hold the staff without occuping your only free hand.

[Protolisk]

Well the staff does say holding and not wielding. You could hold the staff without occuping your only free hand.

Then what stops clerics, paladins, eldritch knights etc. form just "holding" a mace/sword in one hand in their shield arm, and just casting normally, then swapping back? That benefit of War Caster would be superfluous.

[Trandir]

Then what stops clerics, paladins, eldritch knights etc. form just "holding" a mace/sword in one hand in their shield arm, and just casting normally, then swapping back? That benefit of War Caster would be superfluous.

Nothing but the DM.

By the rules they could do that. Or drop the item you are holding in your casting hand and retrive it as object interaction.

[stoutstien]

Nothing but the DM.

By the rules they could do that. Or drop the item you are holding in your casting hand and retrive it as object interaction.
Should like a good way to lose the staff of defense.

[Segev]

Yeah, I'm afraid I agree with everyone else that just giving him this for "RP" is too much. He has a spell - shield - that gives +5 to AC for a round as a reaction to being hit with an attack; that's already pretty potent in this edition. If he wants sheild proficiency, he should go and get it the normal way; this will cost him some multiclassing or several feats for a reason.

[chando]

Yes, the game is supposed to be fun. If beeing an unhitable wizard is fun for him you did great. Staff of defense, robe of the archmage, shield of warning all would be great itens for the player at different tiers of play.

as a balance issue, its not gamebreaking and wizards dont get any armor mostly because 'sacred cow' anyway. It would be different if it was something for free, like "hey can my barbarian have heavy armor prof and also have all his powers work in heavy armor basically so I can dump Dex?" but with minimal RP investment makes it fun and rewarding for all parts involved.
wether you put a great warrior that he can have a sparring seccition, or he sees somebody using a stool as a wooden shield to great effect in a tavern braw, those are great opportunities for him to have some interraction the developts his character, but nothing that takes too much time from group game time, so yeah downtime activities, maybe off-screan activities, "so after besting a great warrior in a tavern drinking contest he asks for a sparring section with the wizard. Hes charcater drunkly accepts and spends most of the time hidding behind stools and chairs until the man burned down. than he used mending on all the furniture. all of this happen while besty is gathering information about mucguffin in [adventure town], etc"

as a personal expirience, I have a lore bard who became proficient in shields after the fisrt few sections for a number of reasons: being trained as a knight (the campaing is themed for knigths and kings), by entering and winning a wrestling competition, gained a Myrmidon shield on a archery bet, being knigthed by the amazon queen, he became eventually "the master of shields" of the PC's own mercenary company even if he never took the shieldmaster feat, got the shield of warning and makes great use of it. Yes all of this added to my bard power. So would having a Bardic Instrument of similar rarity instead of a shield or taking a level of Cleric or Hexblade or just better rolled stats. none of those would be too much of a concern in the whole balance thing.


keep having fun.
:P

[diplomancer]

Think of it that way: would you allow the fighter to learn a couple 1st-level spells if he "practiced spellcasting" for a few weeks during his downtime? If yes, go for it, but know you are upping the power level of the party, and you will have to up the difficulty of the encounters accordingly to maintain a sense of challenge.

[Willie the Duck]

Personally, if the player's goal was specifically to play a wizard who used a shield, but not armor, and didn't MC, I would make a custom feat that, like Moderately Armored, gives shield proficiency but doesn't have the same burden of having Lightly Armored as a prerequisite. The character is investing in studying combat, and there are already multiple ways of doing it (MC, feats, etc.), all of which take build resources.

If the player wants to use RP and/or individual ingenuity to be better at defense, I'd actually argue that they need to get more creative -- teach their familiar to run interception, research a custom spell that stacks with other mage-defense spells, build a shield-bearer mini-automota, convince a local pack of whatzits that he is their god, and if a blow should come to him without a shield intervening, then their crops will wither. Whatever. If they want to turn on the mundane defensives knobs and levers that the game offers, they should follow some semblance of the rule structure ('new features cost build resources like feats or levels' being the primary one). If they just want to get better at defense, then go right ahead and reward creativity.

[stoutstien]

An other option is the war wizard in Xanathar. It's beefy in AC and saves by having a reaction every turn to add +2 AC and +4 saves. You can't cast spells other than cantrips your next turn but if you are concentrating on a spell already nothing stop you from keeping it going.