This Week's Theme build: Guy with a dagger.

[Misterwhisper]

Ok, so this week the theme build I am coming up with is a character built around just a guy with a dagger.
There are many ways to go about it but so many of them require a lot of multiclassing.

A Dagger can be:
Used with the new Thrown Fighting style
Is good for either TWF or Dueling
Can be enchanted by an artificer to be returning or just plain +1
Great for a rogue sneak attacker
Is a monk weapon for upgraded damage
Can be the weapon focus for a blades bard or a blade pact warlock
Boomin blade or GFB weapon.
Decent choices for magic versions
Inconspicuous, everyone can carry a dagger and not be looked at funny most of the time.

HOWEVER it has some cons:
Lowest damage die
No good feat support: No PAM, SS, GWM, CBE or the like for a dagger.
Dual Wielder while thematic is almost pointless due to their ability to already be used for TWF

Let's look at class options:

Bard: Swords/blades bard can use it as a focus and get some mileage out of it.
Barbarian: Nothing wrong with daggers and strength, but not exactly playing to the power of barbarians
Cleric: Nothing special here, just like all other clerics really.
Druid: Not usually a melee/thrown class.
Fighter: Lots of options here, stabbing and throwing maneuvers, multiple fighting styles, good stuff, even as a dip.
Monk: Great monk weapon and gives that agile killer vibe, lots of good stuff, and since no really feat support anyway the stats are better.
Paladin: Kind of like barbarian, you can do it but it does not play to their strengths well.
Ranger: Lots of synergy here with the trackers and killer type guy, fits their theme and style. Mechanics work well too.
Rogue: Probably the best fit thematically. Finesse, ranged attack, concealable, dual able.
Sorcerer: not a lot here, not built to weapon fight really.
Warlock: Can work here, but nothing really melee special other than normal blade pacts.
Wizard: Light weapons work well with a blade singer, might be worth looking at.
Artificer: 2 levels is almost mandatory thanks to returning weapon being just so good.

The issue is how to put that together without looking like a 3.5 character.
Would really need artificer 2, unless a DM will let returning be a property to get like other magic items.
Could go 5 levels and be a battle smith if going to a class with no extra attack.
Could stop at 2 if going a class with 2 attacks.
Fighting style(s) would be great to have.
Rogue makes a lot of sense.

Artificer 2, Fighter 1, ranger 2, Rogue X sounds good but that is a lot of multi classing.
I personally don't see Artificer getting enough past level 5 to be worth staying, but Artificer Battlesmith 5, Battlemaster X is not bad.
The stat requirements are pretty high but Artificer 2, Monk X is not bad.

What ideas do we have this week?

[J-H]

I would go with monk (kensei) for lots and lots of attacks, and a +2 to AC after attacking with knife+UAS. Possibly combine with Rogue for some more sneakiness and repositioning abilities, plus sneak attack damage. Maybe Swashbuckler/Monk?

Another multiclass option would be Warlock, specifically for the Hex type abilities that give you bonus damage on the target every time you hit it.

[Misterwhisper]

I would go with monk (kensei) for lots and lots of attacks, and a +2 to AC after attacking with knife+UAS. Possibly combine with Rogue for some more sneakiness and repositioning abilities, plus sneak attack damage. Maybe Swashbuckler/Monk?

Another multiclass option would be Warlock, specifically for the Hex type abilities that give you bonus damage on the target every time you hit it.

Monk/warlock while good on paper just takes way too many stats to pull off.
If someone was rolling their stats and did very well with it, sure, but in a normal point buy, it just doesn't work.
Also as mentioned by me many many times before, Kensei is a trap build, but monk of either Open Hand, Shadow, or Drunken master could work with a dagger very well.

[CheddarChampion]

Intimidation Factor:
Totem Barbarian 6/Rogue X
Goliath 16/14/16/8/10/10
Expertise in Athletics and Intimidation
Improved Carry Capacity x2
Only improve Str and Con

Big
Bulky
Brawny
Mad

[da newt]

What are you looking to achieve with this?

I could have fun with a goblin barbarian, bugbear rogue, lizard folk fighter, V Human little girl with a grudge ...

[Misterwhisper]

What are you looking to achieve with this?

I could have fun with a goblin barbarian, bugbear rogue, lizard folk fighter, V Human little girl with a grudge ...

I do this about once a week where I come up with a plan for a character with a theme.

This week is all about someone who uses nothing but a dagger or multiple daggers

[Talsin]

Whispers Bard.
Completely innocuous looking on the outside, but has some mantle of dread emanating from him. He draws the dagger and you feel your heart drop. Its sharp touch breaks your mind as it pierces into you. "This is how I die."

[Dork_Forge]

I like the idea of single wielding a dagger and just hitting really hard for this, so something like: Artificer 8/Fighter 4/Ranger 4/ Rogue 4. Int SAD stacking the Dueling and Throwing styles with Returning Weapon for a +9 flat damage with mod, concentraion free Hunter's Mark (newest UA) for an extra d6, couple of Sneak d6s, BattleMaster Maneuvers...

Outisde of that the mix of Artificer, Ranger and Rogue gives a lot of utility and mixing a shield with medium armor gives a nice AC.

[stoutstien]

Keep it simple with a Zealot barbarian. With rage+ divine fury your base weapon die isnt important.

[J-H]

Monk/warlock while good on paper just takes way too many stats to pull off.
If someone was rolling their stats and did very well with it, sure, but in a normal point buy, it just doesn't work.
Also as mentioned by me many many times before, Kensei is a trap build, but monk of either Open Hand, Shadow, or Drunken master could work with a dagger very well.

You're only going Warlock for the no-save abilities, so you don't need Cha.

One of my players just switched to a Kensei, and he's a lot more effective than the Battlemaster that he replaced. More mobility, more AC, more damage, more tricks. 7th level party.

[Misterwhisper]

You're only going Warlock for the no-save abilities, so you don't need Cha.

One of my players just switched to a Kensei, and he's a lot more effective than the Battlemaster that he replaced. More mobility, more AC, more damage, more tricks. 7th level party.

It is almost impossible for a kensei to be more effective than a battle master.
Either you are playing the kensei wrong and letting a MA/Flurry unarmed count for using defense, or that battle master was horribly built.

More mobile, sure, he is a monk, it is what they do.

More AC? No.
The only way a Monk has great ac is by only using their kensei weapon once and defending with it, assuming they are melee.
Monk at level 7 will probably have an AC of 16 or 17. 19 while using kensei defense but then they are only attack with their weapon once a round.
A battle master at level 7 will have a 17 AC even if they don't use a shield and don't take defensive style. If the fighter wants to actually use a shield they can hit 20 ac by then.

More Damage, again, no.
Spending a Ki, a monk can make 2 weapon attacks, and 2 unarmed attacks. or 1 weapon and 3 unarmed if using defense.
That is probably going to end up at about 28 damage, assuming all of them hit, and can only work in melee range, which if you are using patient defense or step of the wind makes the damage about 15.
A monk can't really take CBE/PAM/GWM/SM, and has no fighting style to boost their to hit or damage.
A Battlemaster is almost untouchable with damage thanks to combining GWM or SS with Precise Shot, or throw in CBE too if you want.
that and combined with the much better to hit thanks to archery, or better base damage thanks to weapons like a glaive or greatsword.

More Tricks: No.
Combat Maneuvers are tricks that work every time with the VERY small exception that you use precision strike and still miss.
They are guaranteed bonus damage, and a rider effect.
A monk has stunning fist, and deflect arrow, that is about it.
Stunning fist is a fight ender and a massive power ability, however it is also just encouraging the DM to just lie about saves when they don't want their big bad to die.

Also with a monk/warlock you would have to have:
Dex/wis/cha all at 13 just to multi class, that is costly considering you can't really let con drop too far.

[Evaar]

I would do this as a straight Shadow Monk. If you're looking to really spotlight the dagger's mechanics then it doesn't deliver, but everything the Shadow Monk would want to do works just as well with a dagger.

[J-H]

Long

His battlemaster was never super effective, with the most "powerful" maneuvers he chose being Parry (with highest AC in the party) or Commander's Strike (for the Zealot Barbarian to recklessly attack for 2d6+6).

Halfling Battlemaster 6
Full plate + shield = AC 20
Str 16 IIRC? (he started with more Dex than Str)
Trident+2
Dueling fighting style
Attack: Prof 3, Str 3, Trident 2 = +8 to hit for 1d6+3(str)+2(weapon)+2 style = 1d6+7 damage twice
Plus battlemaster maneuvers, which were not employed often enough, true.
Total damage with no maneuver expenditure = +8,+8, total 2d6+14, average 21 damage

Add a superiority die use for another 1d6 or so damage.

Wood Elf Kensei 7
Dex +4, Wis +3, Bracers of Armor +2 = AC 19; AC 21 after using Kensei weapon and an unarmed strike in same round
Trident +2 (Kensei weapon, so can be used with DEX)
Attack: Prof 3, Dex 4, Trident 2 = +9 to hit for 1d6+4(dex)+2(weapon) = 1d6+6 twice
BA: Unarmed strike +7 to hit for 1d6+4
Total damage with no Ki expenditure = +9, +9, +7 total 3d6+16, average 26.5 damage

He has a lot more ki points than he had maneuvers, so there's often another 1d6+4 tacked on.

[Misterwhisper]

His battlemaster was never super effective, with the most "powerful" maneuvers he chose being Parry (with highest AC in the party) or Commander's Strike (for the Zealot Barbarian to recklessly attack for 2d6+6).

Halfling Battlemaster 6
Full plate + shield = AC 20
Str 16 IIRC? (he started with more Dex than Str)
Trident+2
Dueling fighting style
Attack: Prof 3, Str 3, Trident 2 = +8 to hit for 1d6+3(str)+2(weapon)+2 style = 1d6+7 damage twice
Plus battlemaster maneuvers, which were not employed often enough, true.
Total damage with no maneuver expenditure = +8,+8, total 2d6+14, average 21 damage

Add a superiority die use for another 1d6 or so damage.

Wood Elf Kensei 7
Dex +4, Wis +3, Bracers of Armor +2 = AC 19; AC 21 after using Kensei weapon and an unarmed strike in same round
Trident +2 (Kensei weapon, so can be used with DEX)
Attack: Prof 3, Dex 4, Trident 2 = +9 to hit for 1d6+4(dex)+2(weapon) = 1d6+6 twice
BA: Unarmed strike +7 to hit for 1d6+4
Total damage with no Ki expenditure = +9, +9, +7 total 3d6+16, average 26.5 damage

He has a lot more ki points than he had maneuvers, so there's often another 1d6+4 tacked on.

Bracers of armor and a + 2 weapon at level 7 is crazy overboard on gear.

Also the +2 ac only is if you attack with unarmed with your action, not on the turn.

Superiority dice are d8s not d6s, and they are applied after your already hit so cant be wasted.

They would have to attack once with the trident, which is a bad weapon for a kensei anyway because it is the same as a spear that is already a monk weapon, and then attack unarmed with the rest of their attacks which are not +2.

So the fighter was built wrong, and played wrong, and the monk was given ac they shouldn’t have had, and better placed stats.

It sounds more like your dm does not know what they are doing, and a player who built their character badly.

[micahaphone]

How about a str rogue with a push dagger in a belt buckle. I think of a mountain dwarf (point buy for 16/13/16/10/13/8), who grapples enemies and shanks them in the gut for sneak attack damage. Inquisitive subclass for being a street brawler who can pick out your weaknesses, a la RDJ Sherlock Holmes. First ASI gets you 14 dex for use with medium armor, and 14 wis for insight. Expertise to athletics and insight to always be able to grapple and/or always able to get your Insightful Fighting benefit. The Grappler feat could actually be good here - the disadvantage and advantage of both you and your target being pinned cancel out, and Insightful Fighting doesn't care about any of that.





Alternatively, you could rework your stats to give you some charisma and go swashbuckler. But admittedly I can't think of a golden-age-of-Hollywood charming hero sticking a knife in a guy's gut while delivering a quip to his face.

I like the concept of one-on-one fighting capability for a rogue

[Misterwhisper]

How about a str rogue with a push dagger in a belt buckle. I think of a mountain dwarf (point buy for 16/13/16/10/13/8), who grapples enemies and shanks them in the gut for sneak attack damage. Inquisitive subclass for being a street brawler who can pick out your weaknesses, a la RDJ Sherlock Holmes. First ASI gets you 14 dex for use with medium armor, and 14 wis for insight. Expertise to athletics and insight to always be able to grapple and/or always able to get your Insightful Fighting benefit. The Grappler feat could actually be good here - the disadvantage and advantage of both you and your target being pinned cancel out, and Insightful Fighting doesn't care about any of that.





Alternatively, you could rework your stats to give you some charisma and go swashbuckler. But admittedly I can't think of a golden-age-of-Hollywood charming hero sticking a knife in a guy's gut while delivering a quip to his face.

I like the concept of one-on-one fighting capability for a rogue

That does sound nice, I have played something like that before, a Barb 6 (battlerager), inquisitive X, as a bugbear. or as I called it the "Thugbear" my DM kept calling him my "Mugbear"

[Yakmala]

Mastermind 3, Lore Bard 3, Knowledge Cleric 1. The rest either Rogue or Bard.

He carries a dagger. And he's not actually bad with it, but he's really there for his skills and leadership ability. 13+ skills, 6 Expertise, grant advantage, give Bardic Inspiration, potentially the Healer and Inspiring Leader feats.

In his own words "If it's come down to me stabbing someone with my dagger, we're all in a lot of trouble."

[Callin]

Standard Array 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8


Tinker - Goblin - Artillerist Artificer 7, Rune Knight Fighter 8, Rune Scribe 5

Str 8
Dex 20 (15 +2 Goblin, +2 Artificer 4th +1 Fighter 4)
Con 14 (13 +1 Goblin)
Int 18 (14 +1 Fighter 4 +1 Observant Feat +2 Fighter 8)
Wis 12
Cha 10

Rune Knight Runes- Ild (Fire), Uvar (Storm), Stein (Stone)
Rune Scribe Runes- Ild( Fire), Stein (Stone), Vind (Air), Kalt (Ice)- Free Attunement to Vind.

Feats (Fighter 6)
Observant


Has a few uses for his Bonus Action. Few uses for Reaction, Uvar Rune, and Defensive Runes.
Infusions- Returning, Sending Stones, Wand of Secrets. Defender Turret is his Go To.

Just seems like this guy with proper Cantrip Selection like Guidance and Mage Hand can get alot of mileage out of his Tools.

[J-H]

Bracers of armor and a + 2 weapon at level 7 is crazy overboard on gear.

Also the +2 ac only is if you attack with unarmed with your action, not on the turn.

Superiority dice are d8s not d6s, and they are applied after your already hit so cant be wasted.

They would have to attack once with the trident, which is a bad weapon for a kensei anyway because it is the same as a spear that is already a monk weapon, and then attack unarmed with the rest of their attacks which are not +2.

So the fighter was built wrong, and played wrong, and the monk was given ac they shouldn’t have had, and better placed stats.

It sounds more like your dm does not know what they are doing, and a player who built their character badly.
I'm the DM, and it's randomly rolled loot for a party of 7 using all the "how many magic items by level" info I could find online. Until this last session, the only + weapons they've had are a +1 short sword, a +1 Whip, and a +2 Trident. There have been a few magic items but nothing else with a +1/+2 aside from a few arrows and crossbow bolts. He took the Trident and made it his weapon because +2 to hit and damage is better than 1 step up on the damage dice.

The group has been very efficient about loot distribution; the Barbarian got the three best defensive attunement items because he tanks and deals the most damage, while the Cleric still has nothing attuned at all.

I just checked XGTE and you are right, his Flurry UAS's don't count for AC.

[RingoBongo]

OP: I do the same thing... building characters every week or so. Now you got me thinking about this build as well!


Intimidation Factor:
Totem Barbarian 6/Rogue X
Goliath 16/14/16/8/10/10
Expertise in Athletics and Intimidation
Improved Carry Capacity x2
Only improve Str and Con

Big
Bulky
Brawny
Mad

So far I like Cheddar's interpretation best. However, I would personally want to snag either a fighting style (for thrown weapon style) or artificer 2+ for the returning weapon infusion...

Thief rogue would do something similar as well with action economy. As you can use your bonus action for drawing another dagger... But I don't think you would ever fully be able to attack 3 times in a turn not that that is really necessary.(attack, extra attack, bonus action attack)

Although, Barb 6/ rogue 14 ends with rogue at an even number... And rogue has some better (or at least less complicated in terms of action economy, which can be kind of tedious to track) subclass features.

I would probably take scout or swashbuckler rogue 13/ totem barbarian 5 or 6/ fighter 1 or 2

For fun, I would also add grappler feat (because what other build is likely to utilize this feat any better?). Would start with barbarian to get medium armor, hit die, and str/con saves.

Several different races would also work. Depends on what you are going for...

combat approach: At first I would use cheap scale mail + shield for 18 AC. Eventually, I would want to just get rid of the shield and start capitalizing on grappler feat + stabby stab (so don't take until later). In the meantime save monies for +1-3 half plate ( dm depending)

Progression: Barb 1, rogue 5, Barb 5, fighter 1 .... ?

Expertise athletics for sure. The rest idk.... But that's all I care to think through so far.

[CTurbo]

3-5 levels of Fighter(Brute) and the dagger does 2d4+Str/Dex per attack. Take TWF style.
3-5 levels of Ranger(Hunter or Gloom Stalker). Take new Thrown weapon style. Hunter- Horde Breaker for even more attacks or Colossus Slayer for extra damage. Gloom Stalker for a sneakier character with a boosted first turn.


From there you could go Rogue for Sneak Attack or Monk would work well too.

Brute 11, Gloom Stalker 3, Shadow Monk 6 and you're getting 4 or 5 attacks per turn and your little dagger is dealing 2d6+Str/Dex damage per hit. You take TWF, Dueling, and Thrown Weapon Master. At this point the TWF would be used solely for making 4 thrown attacks otherwise you'd only hold one dagger and use Dueling. Switch this up with Hunter and Kensei for a less sneaky character, but probably deals more damage against single targets. Colossus Slayer would be a sure thing with so many attacks.

[da newt]

kobold warlock, fighter, assassin - Imp, pack tactics, under 45 lbs, fly, invisible, surprise, stab stab stab ...

Work with poisons.

[BigPixie]

Int SAD


Never thought I'd live to see this day :smallbiggrin:

[Misterwhisper]

3-5 levels of Fighter(Brute) and the dagger does 2d4+Str/Dex per attack. Take TWF style.
3-5 levels of Ranger(Hunter or Gloom Stalker). Take new Thrown weapon style. Hunter- Horde Breaker for even more attacks or Colossus Slayer for extra damage. Gloom Stalker for a sneakier character with a boosted first turn.


From there you could go Rogue for Sneak Attack or Monk would work well too.

Brute 11, Gloom Stalker 3, Shadow Monk 6 and you're getting 4 or 5 attacks per turn and your little dagger is dealing 2d6+Str/Dex damage per hit. You take TWF, Dueling, and Thrown Weapon Master. At this point the TWF would be used solely for making 4 thrown attacks otherwise you'd only hold one dagger and use Dueling. Switch this up with Hunter and Kensei for a less sneaky character, but probably deals more damage against single targets. Colossus Slayer would be a sure thing with so many attacks.

That looks pretty solid, I like the new ua ranger additions too.

Brute 11 gloom Stalker 9 would be pretty cool too, if swift quiver worked with a thrown weapons I would say go almost all ranger, gloom stalker or their anti-caster subclass.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Intimidation Factor:
Totem Barbarian 6/Rogue X

You know, this build gives you both Expertise and Advantage (while raging) on Athletics checks. Might be a fun grappler. It's even thematic to grab people and then knife them.

[DustyHalo]

There is the defensive duelist feat, if you're looking for a feat that works. I get that it's not the best one but it is an option I suppose.

[micahaphone]

You know, this build gives you both Expertise and Advantage (while raging) on Athletics checks. Might be a fun grappler. It's even thematic to grab people and then knife them.

I just had a thought about trying to get 2 weapon fighting while grappling (not possible) so that you can shank people twice a turn. And I could see a fun barb player saying "but I do have 2 weapons in my hands - I plan to hit this guy's ally with his body next turn!"

I do suppose you could take Tavern Brawler, replace the dagger with an equivalent, like a broken bottle, and get a grapple & double stab combo going.