Wording Question

[Trandir]

Protective Rush
3rd level fighter Cavalier feature (replaces Born to the Saddle and the Bonus Proficiency)

If you are up to 15 feet away from an ally and a hostile creature moves within 20 feet of that ally you can move up to half your speed to a space closer to the hostile creature. You can use this feature only once per round provided that you haven't already used your regular reaction. In addition, for the rest of the round you can use your reaction only to make an opportunity attack.



How do you think that this feature works?

[JackPhoenix]

Weirdly.

What does "approaching" an ally mean? If an enemy 150' or more away moves vaguely in the ally's direction (and the ally is withint 15' of the cavalier, of course), will the ability trigger? What if the enemy in question is invisible or hidden?
If an enemy is 10' away from an your ally and moves to be adjecent, there's nowhere for the cavalier to move to interpose themselves between the ally and the enemy.

[Trandir]

Weirdly.

What does "approaching" an ally mean? If an enemy 150' or more away moves vaguely in the ally's direction (and the ally is withint 15' of the cavalier, of course), will the ability trigger? What if the enemy in question is invisible or hidden?
If an enemy is 10' away from an your ally and moves to be adjecent, there's nowhere for the cavalier to move to interpose themselves between the ally and the enemy.

To apprach: to come near or nearer to something or someone in space. So an enemy that is approaching is coming nearer to to an ally.

Yes, it does. And probably doesn't matter since most creatures will take at least 1 full round to get in melee range.

As per most abilities that do not specify this: you use logic. If you have no target (you can't see it or are unaware of his presense) you can't use a feature.

And you are wrong, reactions take place before the triggering event is complete, as such you can rush in those 5 ft that separate the two and then the enemy can move in any way it wants.

[JackPhoenix]

Yes, it does. And probably doesn't matter since most creatures will take at least 1 full round to get in melee range.

It does matter, especially if it would take longer: it doesn't make any sense that bodyguard ability would trigger when an enemy is nowhere near the charge.


As per most abilities that do not specify this: you use logic. If you have no target (you can't see it or are unaware of his presense) you can't use a feature.

Abilities like.....? And this ability doesn't have a target.


And you are wrong, reactions take place before the triggering event is complete, as such you can rush in those 5 ft that separate the two and then the enemy can move in any way it wants.

No, they do not. Reactions happen AFTER the trigger, unless the reaction's description specifically says otherwise. That's why they are called reactions: you react to something that has happened.

The whole thing is just badly written.

[cullynthedwarf]

Opinion (since this is required)

I would interpret this to mean any movement that ends with an enemy within melee weapon reach of an ally. Since most spell slingers don't have to move and neither do ranged attackers.

But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong

[Trandir]

It does matter, especially if it would take longer: it doesn't make any sense that bodyguard ability would trigger when an enemy is nowhere near the charge.



Abilities like.....? And this ability doesn't have a target.



No, they do not. Reactions happen AFTER the trigger, unless the reaction's description specifically says otherwise. That's why they are called reactions: you react to something that has happened.

The whole thing is just badly written.

The fact that this makes sense wasn't the point of the thread but it's noted.

Yep it has one: the creature that triggers the feature. Every spell or attack works in this way. If you have a target you get to use the feature.

Every single reaction in this game happens before the trigger, as far as I know. Could you provide any exaple of reactions happening after the trigger?

Apparently not the whole thing since you arem't asking about the second part. And the problems you found could be solved by adding roughtly 5 words if one wanted.


Anyway I forgot to thank you earlier. Thanks your for your help.

[Trandir]

Opinion (since this is required)

I would interpret this to mean any movement that ends with an enemy within melee weapon reach of an ally. Since most spell slingers don't have to move and neither do ranged attackers.

But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong

Well I am asking litterally for opinions after reading the feature. If it gets mishunderstood then I have to correct it in some way.

Unfortunately I myself don't hunderstand what you are trying to say. Could you rephrase the first sentence after the disclaimer?

[JackPhoenix]

Every single reaction in this game happens before the trigger, as far as I know. Could you provide any exaple of reactions happening after the trigger?

Readied actions.
Berserker barbarian's Retaliation
Tempest domain's Wrath of the Storm
Every battlemaster maneuver that requires reaction
Mage Slayer feat

I could go on, but there's too many examples to list them all.

[Trandir]

Readied actions.
Berserker barbarian's Retaliation
Tempest domain's Wrath of the Storm
Every battlemaster maneuver that requires reaction
Mage Slayer feat

I could go on, but there's too many examples to list them all.

Well one has to admit when he is wrong. Reactions can happen before or after the trigger resolves, not only before.

But now that you make me notice it reactions always seem to have in their descriptions when they happen. I gotta fix the feature since when refers to after the trigger is ended.
Again thanks for the imput.

[Trandir]

Ok changed the wording a little bit and somewhat "fixed it".

How do you think it works now?

[Zhorn]

Well one has to admit when he is wrong. Reactions can happen before or after the trigger resolves, not only before.
The default is always after the trigger; unless a specific ability references otherwise. This falls under the specific beats general ruling, and we have a reference for the general rule;

Ready
...
When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.
...
Off the top of my head, the only reaction I can think of that isn't distinctly after would be Opportunity Attacks, with the trigger being a creature leaving your reach, but if they have left your reach, you would be unable to reach them to hit them with said Opportunity Attack. The specifics covers this interaction with;

Opportunity Attacks
...
You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.
...
The attack interrupts the provoking creature’s movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach. (pfd)
The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach. (print book), not sure which line is covered by the errata
...

[Trandir]

The default is always after the trigger; unless a specific ability references otherwise. This falls under the specific beats general ruling, and we have a reference for the general rule;

Off the top of my head, the only reaction I can think of that isn't distinctly after would be Opportunity Attacks, with the trigger being a creature leaving your reach, but if they have left your reach, you would be unable to reach them to hit them with said Opportunity Attack. The specifics covers this interaction with;

Yep I revisited that section of the PHB to see how wrong I was. And while I can appriciate a comment that better explains it I'd rather get an answer to the OP's question.

[Zhorn]

Protective Rush
3rd level fighter Cavalier feature (replaces Born to the Saddle and the Bonus Proficiency)

When an enemy moves within 20 feet of a friendly creature within 15 feet of you, you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed to interpose between the friendly creature and the enemy. In addition, you get a special reaction that you can take once during that enemy's turn. You can use this special reaction only to make an Opportunity Attack against that enemy.


How do you think that this feature works?

Like what JackPhoenix said, there's a weird grey area where if there's no space to 'interpose between the friendly creature and the enemy'.
While the intent is to 'interpose', that might best be left as flavor text in a sentence before covering mechanics.
Also, instead of phrasing the ability as two reactions, just state them as one.
suggestion;

[jargon about being a master of mobility capable to interposing yourself between hostile forces and your allies]
When a hostile creature moves within 20 feet of an ally who is within 15 feet of your current position, you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed to re-position yourself. If you end the movement with the hostile creature within your reach; you make an Opportunity Attack against that creature.

[Trandir]

Like what JackPhoenix said, there's a weird grey area where if there's no space to 'interpose between the friendly creature and the enemy'.
While the intent is to 'interpose', that might best be left as flavor text in a sentence before covering mechanics.
Also, instead of phrasing the ability as two reactions, just state them as one.
suggestion;

Well by adding the 20ft restriction I thought that that grey area was solved. But apparently this doesn't solve the case of "the enemy is standing 5 feet from the ally and moves foward". That is still a concern.



When a hostile creature moves within 20 feet of an ally who is within 15 feet of your current position, you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed to re-position yourself. If you end the movement with the hostile creature within your reach; you make an Opportunity Attack against that creature.



This is much clearer and lighter than mine.
The movement part is perfect with maybe with just one adjustment at the end:
When a hostile creature moves within 20 feet of an ally who is within 15 feet of your current position, you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed to a space closer to the hostile creature. This way it's clear that you can't just have free movement and there is no need for this feature if you are already in melee range with the enemy.


The problem tho relies on the need for the cluncky extra special reaction part. Without it you basically make opportunity attack if an enemy just moves in in a 15ft radious of you. That's some broken stuff. I tried to make clear that the enemy still has to provoke the opportunity attack for you to expend that reaction.
That is my the real concern about the wording.

[cullynthedwarf]

Well I am asking litterally for opinions after reading the feature. If it gets mishunderstood then I have to correct it in some way.

Unfortunately I myself don't hunderstand what you are trying to say. Could you rephrase the first sentence after the disclaimer?

Realized I completely mid read the question, or perhaps better stated it got mistranslated from the first reading to the comment button. I apologize for the confusion.

[Zhorn]

The problem tho relies on the need for the cluncky extra special reaction part. Without it you basically make opportunity attack if an enemy just moves in in a 15ft radious of you. That's some broken stuff. I tried to make clear that the enemy still has to provoke the opportunity attack for you to expend that reaction.
That is my the real concern about the wording.
I think the underlying issue is trying to have a complex feature doing too much in a turn.
To make it simpler and more intuitive to use your choices are either;
streamline the feature (which I was trying to do)
cut it down into separate features (say the movement in one, and alter Hold The Line to include if you move into range on an enemy's turn, making strong part locked to 10 level commitment)
as keeping it together in that two-reaction form you want is going to come across as clunky.

As far as the power aspect, there's always the option of doubling down. If you can't word it in a way that doesn't come across as over-powered, intentionally make it blatantly powerful but on a limited use;
After the ability is used, you cannot do so again until after a short or long rest
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your ? modifier.
The feature grants a new way to use the Fighter's Action Surge ability.
Generally the more limited you make it, the more forgiving you can get with the trigger aspect.

The more I think about this, the more I feel the feature as a whole might be better suited as a replacement for the level 7 feature instead of the level 3 one.

[Trandir]

I think the underlying issue is trying to have a complex feature doing too much in a turn.
To make it simpler and more intuitive to use your choices are either;
streamline the feature (which I was trying to do)
cut it down into separate features (say the movement in one, and alter Hold The Line to include if you move into range on an enemy's turn, making strong part locked to 10 level commitment)
as keeping it together in that two-reaction form you want is going to come across as clunky.

As far as the power aspect, there's always the option of doubling down. If you can't word it in a way that doesn't come across as over-powered, intentionally make it blatantly powerful but on a limited use;
After the ability is used, you cannot do so again until after a short or long rest
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your ? modifier.
The feature grants a new way to use the Fighter's Action Surge ability.
Generally the more limited you make it, the more forgiving you can get with the trigger aspect.

The more I think about this, the more I feel the feature as a whole might be better suited as a replacement for the level 7 feature instead of the level 3 one.

Someone gave me the right idea: The feature triggers once per round and limits the reaction to only opportunity attacks for that round. This way I can cut all the cluncky part leaving the core intact.

[Zhorn]

Someone gave me the right idea: The feature triggers once per round and limits the reaction to only opportunity attacks for that round. This way I can cut all the cluncky part leaving the core intact.
I hope that 'someone' isn't me. Ultimately it's your idea and your implementation is worth what it is as long as it satisfies what you want. If you are happy with the implementation, then that's what matters.
"My brother once told me that nothing before the word 'but' really counts"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeAeL0K86DI
but...

Protective Rush
3rd level fighter Cavalier feature (replaces Born to the Saddle and the Bonus Proficiency)

Once per round when a hostile creature you can see moves within 20 feet of an ally who is within 15 feet of your current position, you can move up to half your speed to a space closer to the hostile creature. In addition, until the beginning of your next turn you can use your reaction only to make an opportunity attack.You can't use this feature if you already used your regular reaction.
The clunky parts are still fully intact;
the double range component; distance of the enemy and distance of the ally
the two separately timed components; the movement and opportunity attack
The former is just an awkward read, while the later is still essentially making two distinct reactions, even if you call them something different.

For the distance component; if you are fine with the movement not always being guaranteed to put you within striking distance, having the trigger cut back to just an enemy moving within 15/20 ft of an ally. It might broaden the trigger a great deal, but makes it simpler to understand.

When I talked about a limit in the earlier post, I'm talking about a limited number of uses.
Once per round isn't a limit, it's an expectation. Like rogue's sneak attack with the once per turn, there is an expectation that they'll get a sneak attack off every round.

Don't feel pressured to overhaul anything just to match my advice, this is just my candid opinion as I look at this feature and how it feels off as I continue to think it over.
My redesign notes as they currently stand;
all in the one reaction, don't split it up
simplify the range trigger
move it to the level 7 feature replacement instead of the level 3 one
can be done as a reaction a number of times equal to your con modifier

[Trandir]

I hope that 'someone' isn't me. Ultimately it's your idea and your implementation is worth what it is as long as it satisfies what you want. If you are happy with the implementation, then that's what matters.


Well you do not need to hope that someone isn't you. I am trying to make the fature sound "official" if that even makes sense. But the base concept is clucky and hard to put in a short feature while both leaving no space for mishunderstanding.

"My brother once told me that nothing before the word 'but' really counts"

But... That's not enough



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeAeL0K86DI[/SPOILER]
but...

The clunky parts are still fully intact;
the double range component; distance of the enemy and distance of the ally
the two separately timed components; the movement and opportunity attack
The former is just an awkward read, while the later is still essentially making two distinct reactions, even if you call them something different.

For the distance component; if you are fine with the movement not always being guaranteed to put you within striking distance, having the trigger cut back to just an enemy moving within 15/20 ft of an ally. It might broaden the trigger a great deal, but makes it simpler to understand.

When I talked about a limit in the earlier post, I'm talking about a limited number of uses.
Once per round isn't a limit, it's an expectation. Like rogue's sneak attack with the once per turn, there is an expectation that they'll get a sneak attack off every round.

Don't feel pressured to overhaul anything just to match my advice, this is just my candid opinion as I look at this feature and how it feels off as I continue to think it over.
My redesign notes as they currently stand;
all in the one reaction, don't split it up
simplify the range trigger
move it to the level 7 feature replacement instead of the level 3 one
can be done as a reaction a number of times equal to your con modifier

Sidenote: my DM conceded me this mess of a feature of his invention and I am just trying to condensate it in a couple of lines and that has the usual WotC wording. Unfortunately I can't make this slide to 7th level nor I can merge the two "reactions" since the feature just doesn't work that way. (if it was for me I'd probably just taken one expertise or something minor and simple)

The DM's vesion is this:
When an enemy approaches an ally up to 15 feet of you you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed to interpose between the enemy and your ally. You gain a special reaction (like the 18th level feature) that can be used this round to make an opportunity attack.

What is meant to do is:
an enemy approaches an ally and this trigger the feature
I move up to half my speed and try to road block and I still get my reaction to make opportunity attacks
The enemy now has a meatwall in front of his target and he can decide what to do, attack me or try to get to the ally and take the opportunity attack.

This is rather hard to convey.



This is the best I could come up with:


If you are up to 15 feet away from an ally and a hostile creature moves within 20 feet of that ally you can move up to half your speed to a space closer to the hostile creature. You can use this feature only once per round provided that you haven't already taken a reaction this turn. In addition, for the rest of the round you can use your reaction only to make an opportunity attack.


And unfortunately this isn't a discussion about the balance of the feature as it is about the wording itself. I can't redisign the feture.

[Zhorn]

ah sorry, I thought this was your own homebrew.
if you can't change it, then you can't change it.

[Trandir]

ah sorry, I thought this was your own homebrew.
if you can't change it, then you can't change it.

Yep. So How's the wording now?

[Zhorn]

Yep. So How's the wording now?
Protective Rush
3rd level fighter Cavalier feature (replaces Born to the Saddle and the Bonus Proficiency)

If you are up to 15 feet away from an ally and a hostile creature moves within 20 feet of that ally you can move up to half your speed to a space closer to the hostile creature. You can use this feature only once per round provided that you haven't already taken a reaction this turn. In addition, for the rest of the round you can use your reaction only to make an opportunity attack.
It's understandable, other design aspects notwithstanding.
I can't see any immediate "how does this work?" questions jumping out under this iteration.
For its level I still think it's not ideal and should go back to the drawing board considering the the rest of the class's/subclass's mechanics and the action economy at that tier of play. But given the designer's intent, it is coherent.

[HappyDaze]

As written, an enemy trying to Disengage from your ally "moves within 20 feet of that ally"--so is the intent of a "protective rush" to overrun a fleeing foe?

[Trandir]

It's understandable, other design aspects notwithstanding.
I can't see any immediate "how does this work?" questions jumping out under this iteration.
For its level I still think it's not ideal and should go back to the drawing board considering the the rest of the class's/subclass's mechanics and the action economy at that tier of play. But given the designer's intent, it is coherent.

At least we got that part right. Now I can rest (and create a decent ACF in the homebrew section).


As written, an enemy trying to Disengage from your ally "moves within 20 feet of that ally"--so is the intent of a "protective rush" to overrun a fleeing foe?

No it is not, still killing a fleeing enemy is still protecting your ally in the form of prevention of future assaults.

How would you convey the idea that this only works on an approaching enemy?