Help me find worldbuilding classes/systems like Gramarie

[MinotaurWarblad]

I want to see more classes and stuff that interact with the world like Gramarie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?320298-My-Little-Gramarist-SCIENCE!-is-Magic-Gramarie-Discussion).
Ideas?

[Fizban]

As the complete lack of initial response may indicate- yeah there really aren't many. Aside from that specific project, most homebrew will if anything make a point of being self-contained. And that's not surprising given that such a project is taking on all the major problems of a magic or other system multiplied by every impact it is being intentionally designed to have on worldbuilding. Seriously, building a system of in-game mechanics whose primary purpose is being a framework of maximum possibility someone else to then literally invent the elements of their actual setting, while also somehow making it playable within an existing tabletop game with its own rules? Not sure if it was anywhere close to managed (been a while and I never read the whole thing), but a bold target if there ever was one.

The best you can usually hope for are setting books- Warcraft, Iron Kingdoms, and Dragonmech all have techy stuff with classes and items and supposed effects on the worldbuilding, but their mechanics are designed to support a particular setting and are so-so at best. Warcraft's technological items have a threadbare suggestion and a whole lot of examples that just break it immediately before they start coming up with new, narrower systems. Iron Kingdoms tries to dress up some magitech with a bunch of circut-like stuff, but at the end of the day it;s magic items by another name (including some poorly written potential abuses, as is tradition). Dragonmech has giant mecha and a class that makes steam devices that are the most open ended/non-goal-oriented of the three with parts like rotor arm and flywheel, with arbitrary nigh-wacky effects that could do something, but the list is short and missing critical info and clarification and its all still tied to the individual's class level to sustain them.

I've written a lot on working from the existing mechanics, in the old Industrialization (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?522922-Industrializing-a-Setting) thread and when it comes up. There was an Undead (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?537020-Use-of-Undead-A-Tangent) thread which got there eventually (around page 5 or 6) with some number crunching, near the end of which I pulled back to the broader scope of how one might divvy up major advancements (top of last page). I've never collated all the stuff together, but when you hold yourself to the city-generated NPCs and some limits on custom magic items, there are a few limited but clear lines you can follow based on what those NPCs can make. I've been meaning to get around to writing what I might call the final piece of the puzzle- a dedicated spell for the direct animation of machinery, measured in a useful way, matched to what the existing spells can do but without jumping through hoops. Except depending on what you're doing the useful measure will be different, and you'd still need to invent the machinery. But at the end of the day free thermal and kinetic energy only does so much, if you're looking for serious world-altering magitech.

[MinotaurWarblad]

I'm not specifically looking for magitech. I'm looking for anything at all that allows for interactions with the world in that way. It doesn't need to have a lot of breadth or depth, either. :smallsmile:
I like the World of Warcraft d20 books a lot, mostly with the way the caster classes were modified.
I've never looked into Dragonmech or Iron Kingdoms. I'll investigate those. Thanks!

[StSword]

Have you looked at the incantation system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)?

The rules allow ritual magic available to anyone able to make the skill checks.

The third party Pathfinder book Incantations in Theory and Practice has two additions to the system- allowing for incantations to emulate lower level spells, and the suggestion of rebranding incantations.

It could be magic music like Orpheus, alchemical wonders, mad science, runecarving, shamanism, whatever.

Since incantations are available to everyone, well rebranding incantations would allow one to turn a DnD game runepunk, alchempunk, shamanpunk, whatever, just as gramarie allows for changing the world with science.

[MinotaurWarblad]

While it's a neat variant that allows everyone to use what essentially amounts to low-level vancian magic, I'm not sure it fits the identity of what I'm going for.
• The incantations system modifies the world in a way that allows for freeform rituals that the GM can add to the game to allow magic for non-casters.
• The gramarie system modifies the world in a way that allows for structured magic with predictable outcomes that the GM and players can use to engineer the world around them.


• Using incantations, the GM creates a list of very specific, individual magical effects that can be used by anyone with the appropriate skills to enact a very specific event. This event is likely only relevant in the campaign as far as the PCs are willing to utilize its effects; for example, summoning a demon by name to answer three questions, with the third answer freeing the demon. Such a contract will inevitably lead to the PCs saving their questions for some cryptic riddle or to collect information on their archnemesis before the final battle. It's cool, flavorful, and useful (which is why I use them a lot in my E6 games), but it doesn't significantly impact the way the world works.
• Using gramarie, the same GM could simply allow one feat (Extra Credit) and one principle (KALD 101), and suddenly there is one specific, individual magical effect that can be used by anyone with the appropriate skill to enact a very specific event. Sound familiar? The difference is, this specific magical event can be used for a much wider variety of situations and events, with that one principle being used for many different applications.
>> Granted, it's easy for a GM to simply recreate the cost, effects, and flavor of a ritual to match that of a gramaric principle, but that's a LOT of scratch work for a single effect. Otherwise, I'd use incantations in all my games.

I'm glad you mentioned incantations, since they don't get enough love. However, I'm searching for something that will, regardless of complexity or completeness, allow my players to cooperatively and sanely shape the world as much as I do as the GM, without resorting to standard spells or magic items with a caster level higher than 5th/spell level higher than 3rd.

[Jack_Simth]

So something like Words of Power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/words-of-power/) or Spheres of Power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/), or Rune Magic (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/rune-magic/) (all for Pathfinder)?

Should be portable to 3.5 with little hassle.

[MinotaurWarblad]

So something like Words of Power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/words-of-power/) or Spheres of Power (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/spheres-of-power/), or Rune Magic (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/rune-magic/) (all for Pathfinder)?

Should be portable to 3.5 with little hassle.

Hmm... Almost.
• I use Spheres in pretty much all my games and with damn near all my characters. :smallbiggrin: Though, Spheres kind of locks away the content relevant to this discussion behind advanced and legendary talents.
• Wordspells are really cool, and I would be happy to see them in play, but they still seem to focus on the individual, or multiple individuals, with game-y effects (as opposed to in-game interactions with the world). It has the structured effects that make predictable outcomes, but the things it actually does have impacts no different than standard vancian casting. That being said, this is the first time I've looked into this subsystem and I absolutely intend to use it in the future. Thanks, so much!
• Rune Magic, same as Wordspells (above). Still not what I'm looking for, but extremely awesome and definitely seeing use in my future games. Much appreciated, once again.

[StSword]

I'm glad you mentioned incantations, since they don't get enough love. However, I'm searching for something that will, regardless of complexity or completeness, allow my players to cooperatively and sanely shape the world as much as I do as the GM, without resorting to standard spells or magic items with a caster level higher than 5th/spell level higher than 3rd.

I get the impression you didn't get what I was going for here.

In a setting which uses the incantation system, someone must have invented them in the first place.

I do not know if Incantations in Theory and Practice has rules for inventing incantations, it's still in my wishlist.

However, both Dnd 3x and Pathfinder both have rules for inventing spells, and since incantations have effective spell levels, that means one could adapt the spell invention rules to incantations.

So using the suggestion from Incantations in Theory and Practice to change the fluff of incantations, one could therefore have a Runepunk game in which the PCs invent a new rune array that then anyone could learn to carve, or whatever.

[Eldan]

Have you looked at the incantation system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)?

The rules allow ritual magic available to anyone able to make the skill checks.

Building on that, my attempt to make more:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560822-Incantations

[Alexvrahr]

FWIW, there's another version of Gramarie here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?291019-By-the-Inferior-Science-of-our-Enemies-Gramarie-Mark-II).

[MinotaurWarblad]

Yeah, that's spoiler'd in the version of Gramarie I linked in the OP. Good for anyone casually browsing this thread, though. :smallsmile:

[Alexvrahr]

Thinking about it if you're looking for things which could change the world more than change adventuring combat, there was a feat in IIRC Secrets of Sarlona which gave one 1st level psionic power and 1 power point to use it with. The possibility of even 1st level commoners having a 'spell' and the variety of powers which SoS added could definitely change a society.

Edit: certainly just training everyone as psions or something could have the same effect and more. A feat is arguably a lower cost though.

[MinotaurWarblad]

Thinking about it if you're looking for things which could change the world more than change adventuring combat, there was a feat in IIRC Secrets of Sarlona which gave one 1st level psionic power and 1 power point to use it with. The possibility of even 1st level commoners having a 'spell' and the variety of powers which SoS added could definitely change a society.

Edit: certainly just training everyone as psions or something could have the same effect and more. A feat is arguably a lower cost though.

This has been explored with Dark Sun through the use of Wild Talent/Hidden Talent. Pretty much everyone on Dark Sun has some psionic ability. It's a fun concept to screw around with, especially with some of the psionic classes from Dreamscarred Press for Pathfinder.