Best way to get good AC as a Wizard?

[Merudo]

I'm thinking about playing a Wizard but the front line of our party is near nonexistent. I'd like to get good AC, and I noticed the following options are available:

- Bladesinger Tradition


PROS: uninterrupted spell progression, very good bonus to AC and concentration saves while Bladesong is active
CONS: poor AC without Bladesong, no notable tradition bonuses beside AC & concentration, elf race gives poor bonuses
Summary: probably best if you roll very high DEX and INT


- Hobgoblin + Moderately Armored:


PROS: uninterrupted spell progression, any tradition possible, Saving Face is easily a +5 to a saving throw.
CONS: serious delay regarding feats & ASI
Summary: you keep your spell progression and tradition choice open, but at what price?


- Human + Lightly Armored + Moderately Armored:


PROS: uninterrupted spell progression, any tradition possible.
CONS: serious delay regarding feats & ASI, no Saving Face, no Darkvision.
Summary: go Hobgoblin instead



- Fighter dip

PROS: equivalent to 3 feats (lightly moderately armored + moderately armored + resilient (CON), +1 AC with defensive style
CONS: delay Wizard progression by 1
Summary: very strong no-nonsense option



- Hexblade dip

PROS: equivalent to 2 feats (lightly moderately armored + moderately armored), Hexblade's Curse, extra spell slot that refreshes on short rests
CONS: CHA requirement, delays Wizard progression by 1, 2 if you go Hexblade 2
Summary: best used for Abjuration shenanigans such as recharging Ward with Armor of Shadows and stacking Armor of Agathys with the Ward.



- Cleric dip (probably Forge, Knowledge or Order)

PROS: equivalent to 2 feats (lightly moderately armored + moderately armored), Guidance cantrip, spells (healing word and Bless), Cleric domain feature
CONS: WIS requirement, delays Wizard progression by 1, but spell slots unaffected
Summary: the choice that gives you the most fun stuff to use - but is it really better than the +1AC and CON saves proficiency that the Fighter gets?


I'm not sure which one of these to get - any recommendation?

EDIT: New option:

- Artificer dip

PROS: equivalent to 3 feats (lightly moderately armored + moderately armored + resilience constitution), Guidance cantrip, spells (Cure Wounds and Sanctuary), no MAD requirement
CONS: delays Wizard progression by 1 but spell slots unaffected, no fighting style
Summary: excellent alternative to the Cleric dip without investing in WIS.

[nickl_2000]

Mountain Dwarf, githyanki, and tortle as well for races

[MaxWilson]

- Fighter dip

PROS: equivalent to 3 feats (lightly moderately armored + moderately armored + resilient (CON), +1 AC with defensive style
CONS: delay Wizard progression by 1
Summary: very strong no-nonsense option



- Hexblade dip

PROS: equivalent to 2 feats (lightly moderately armored + moderately armored), Hexblade's Curse, extra spell slot that refreshes on short rests
CONS: CHA requirement, delays Wizard progression by 1, 2 if you go Hexblade 2
Summary: best used for Abjuration shenanigans such as recharging Ward with Armor of Shadows and stacking Armor of Agathys with the Ward.



- Cleric dip (probably Forge, Knowledge or Order)

PROS: equivalent to 2 feats (lightly moderately armored + moderately armored), Guidance cantrip, spells (healing word and Bless), Cleric domain feature
CONS: WIS requirement, delays Wizard progression by 1, but spell slots unaffected
Summary: the choice that gives you the most fun stuff to use - but is it really better than the +1AC and CON saves proficiency that the Fighter gets?


I'm not sure which one of these to get - any recommendation?

Normally I'd go Forge Cleric 1 because cleric spells can be nifty (Sanctuary is bonus action and no-concentration!) and because you can switch your +1 AC into enchanting the party fighter's weapons, which can be terrific once weapon-resistant monsters start to show up. Not getting Con save proficiency is somewhat unfortunate, but good AC is arguably more important than Con save proficiency anyway because taking damage but keeping concentration is clearly worse than taking no damage. Besides there's always Resilient (Con) later on, whereas the Fighter/Wizard will be tempted by Resilient (Wis) instead, for no net difference in feats.

Cleric is actually not any more MAD than Fighter, because Int 13 Wis 13 is just as easy to achieve as Str/Dex 13 Int 13. Remember that you don't strictly need high Strength to wear heavy armor--you can compensate for lowered movement speed in other ways like Mobile feat, Longstrider spell when necessary, or even just buying a horse (or creating one with Phantom Steed).

However, if you're planning to ever go Fighter 2 for Action Surge, then obviously Cleric is redundant. E.g. if you ever want to Cloudkill + Action Surge: Forcecage to auto-kill almost any non-teleporting monster with no saving throw, then you would go Fighter 1 instead of Cleric 1.

Hexblade 1 is mostly attractive IMO only if either (1) you just think medium armor is cooler than heavy armor anyway, and (2) you want a good at-will attack and a short-rest spell slot for stuff like Disguise Self/Shield. Even without invocations, Hex + Eldritch Blast's damage isn't terrible, and if you add a Hexblade's Curse on the next round it becomes downright decent. Like Fighter, you get a lot of additional goodies for going to Hexblade 2: personally my favorite is Repelling Blast because of how well it combos with control spells. Even before Hexblade came out I liked the idea of Warlock 2/Necromancer X for the combination of good physical damage and good at-will force damage.

Anyway, Forge 1/Wizard X is my default, but it depends on the character.

[Daphne]

poor AC without Bladesong
You can use it twice between short rests, that should be more than enough.


elf race gives poor bonuses
+2 DEX, +1 INT and Darkvision is not bad.

Summary: probably best if you roll very high DEX and INT
[/LIST]


Hobgoblin + Heavily Armored

Moderately Armored is more than enough. It's 19 AC with 14 DEX while holding a shield.
.

For a one level dip, Clerics and Fighters are better than Hexblade imo. You could go Svirfneblin Abjuration Wizard and pick the racial feat, no AC increase but huge HP pool.

[MaxWilson]

You can use it twice between short rests, that should be more than enough.

It's not so much about the number of rests--it's how fragile you are whenever you are surprised, lose initiative, get stunned or paralyzed, etc.

13th level Dex 16 Con 14 Int 18 Bladesinger w/ Bladesong: AC 20 (+5 from Shield) and 80 HP.

Then she fails a Con save vs. an Abominable Yeti's paralyzing gaze, and suddenly she's AC 16 (advantage to attackers, no chance to Shield) and the Yeti auto-crits her with two more claw attacks at +11 to hit with advantage (4% chance to miss). In all likelihood, she's now taken 22d6+14 (91) HP of damage in one round and she's probably at 0 HP.

On the other hand, a Paladorc in plate armor and a shield (Paladin 9, Sorc 4, AC 21, 100 HP) would have a better chance not to fail the save in the first place, would have a 25% chance of being missed by the Yeti on each attack, and even if it does hit twice, has enough HP to take the expected 91 HP of damage without dying.

Another case where not having Bladesong matters a lot is on the first round of a combat vs. e.g. 20 Drow Warriors. +4 to hit vs. AC 16 is fairly nasty if they target you, even if you Shield. If she loses initiative she could spend the whole combat face-down, snoring, if the other PCs don't think to shoot at her to wake up her.

[Phhase]

Iron Durability Mystic can be useful in a pinch. There's also a bunch of THP disciplines. I'm sure there's other options too.

[Gignere]

Play GOD wizard and forget about the AC / HP stat?

But if you plan to tank wizard I would recommend just grabbing a level of cleric. Particularly awesome picks would be knowledge, life or forge domains.

[BullyWog]

Tortle, AC 17, plus shield spell is 22.

[CTurbo]

A single level of Cleric gives the most IMO. Particularly Knowledge Cleric which gives you Expertise in 2 different Int skills plus all the other Cleric goodies. You were comparing each dip to how many feats they give, well a single Cleric level is more like 4 feats considering it's better than taking Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster too. Needing a 13 Wis is NOT a con since you don't want to dump Wis anyway and 13 is easy. Light Cleric is my second choice since it gives you a very useful use of your reaction making you harder to hit. Shout out to Tempest Cleric if you can grab a second level because maximizing Thunder/Lightning damage is awesome especially for Evokers.

A single level of Fighter is always strong too. Getting Con saves is really nice, but Con saves +1 AC is not as good as all the Cleric goodies IMO. If you do go Fighter, it would be REALLY tempting to grab a second level for Action Surge too. It's that good.

Hobgoblins make great Wizards if you don't want to multiclass. Perfect ASI race boosts + Light Armor. The Moderately Armored feat is really good here and the "Save Face" racial feature is good too. The only Con is getting Int to 18 has to wait until level 8.

[JNAProductions]

Play GOD wizard and forget about the AC / HP stat?

But if you plan to tank wizard I would recommend just grabbing a level of cleric. Particularly awesome picks would be knowledge, life or forge domains.

Just because you don't PLAN on hitting the front lines doesn't mean no one's ever gonna attack you.

[TheUser]

Necromancer Wizard/Life Cleric 1
Not only do you build your own front line early/mid game (zombies have enough strength to wear chain mail and use a shield) but by level 6 (5 necro/1 Life Cleric) with Vampiric Touch you heal an extra 5hp each time you hit (Disciple of Life) and then an extra 9 when you kill a creature with it (Grim Harvest). If you throw down on a 5th level slot you heal an extra 10 per hit and 15 on a kill.
(Average of 10 healing per round with level 3 Vamp touch and 19 with a 5th level slot). Lots of healing with moderate damage.


By level 12 when your max HP cannot be reduced (Inured to Undeath) you can also now use Magic Jar to break the system:
Possess a Warlord, surge to 317 max HP (it normally has 229 but you still keep your class features which include HP which is 11d6+44 [88 avg]) and since your max HP can't be reduced with Inured to Undeath (retain class features while possessing) you are now a titan even after the spell ends.

Super jenky but fun

[Talionis]

Cleric, probably Forge since you are focusing on AC. You can eventually take resilient Constitution feat. The spell selection and cantrips really make this. Cure Wounds is nice to have but the variety of spell choices is something a Wizard would appreciate.

The other fun choice is Hexblade, but I only suggest that for a Abjurerer. Having the ability to upcast Armor of Agathys is fun and effective.

[Sigreid]

I'd do 2 levels of knowledge cleric. Medium armor and shield is decent without you having to invest in str. Expertise in 2 knowledge skills, like say, arcana. A divine power that will let you temporarily get any skill/tool proficiency when you need it. A little extra flexibility from cleric spells. All without negatively impacting your spell slots.

[Renvir]

It may not be the best choice but War Wizard should at least be considered.

Arcane Deflection can be really handy with its bonus to AC and incredible bonus to Saves as a reaction. It will only affect one attack against you in a turn but having this and the shield spell gives you options to avoid damage. At level 10 you'll have +2 to AC and Saves while concentrating on a spell and at level 14 you'll actually be able to turn your defense into a bit of offense.

If you really aren't trying to be a front liner but are worried about your lack of AC it's not a bad pick.

Pros: No delay in spell slots or other wizard features, not MAD, boosts to Saves as well as AC, can multiclass for super tankiness if you want.
Cons: Power Surge feature is... a thing, AC and Save boosts are only temporary, be ready to cast cantrips a lot if you don't have anyone drawing attacks.
Summary: It's a simple archetype that does one thing well and not much else. It's still a wizard though so rituals, familiar, the ability to light the universe on fire, etc. are all still in play.

[Klorox]

Forge cleric for heavy armor, or knowledge cleric for medium. The added spells and cantrips are wonderful.

I prefer knowledge because of expertise in the arcana skill fits wizards, and I’d rather have a 14 DEX and not worry about STR too much.

If you’ll be playing to a real high level, fighter 2 is amazing.

An option you haven’t considered is deep gnome. You can go single classed wizard and choose the Svirfneblin Magic feat. As an abjuror you’ll have free castings of a 3rd level abjuration spell to fuel your ward constantly.

A feat tax, especially only one feat while still starting with a 16 or 17 INT, is often better than losing a level to multiclassing.

[Aussiehams]

Hire a Paladin and stand behind him.

[Lyracian]

My vote would be Cleric if you are Multiclass. Forge gets you the same +1 Fighter offers but you can move it around if needed. That one point could be more value to the heavy armoured front line than yourself. Knowledge gets double expertise which is also useful.

I would only take Fighter if I was planning to eventually take the second level.

[Keravath]

Personally, I went with one level of knowledge cleric to start on my wizard. Variant human with resilient con which covered the con saves. I find that the expertise in arcana and another knowledge skill (I picked nature) are very thematic for a wizard (plus extra languages as a ribbon feature). Medium armor/shield plus the first level cleric spells. The AC does lag one behind either a defensive fighter or forge cleric but I've found that isn't a big deal. My character started with 8 14 14 16 14 8 for stats using point buy (including resilient con).

[Quietus]

I definitely think the one level dip followed by straight Wizard is the way to go. I'm playing in a game right now where I'm running a dwarven forge cleric, and my friend is runing a high elf fighter1/abjurer. They are just as tanky as I am, and we're level 5 now. He's using the booming blade/green-flame blade cantrips in melee to conserve spell slots, and it's working out really well for all of us.

The single level delay does hurt a little, of course. But if that bothers you, then going hobgoblin for the medium armor at level 4 is not an awful choice.

[16bearswutIdo]

If you're playing a non-bladesinger wizard and you're getting hit, the party composition must be horrendous.

Bladesinger is the best choice at low levels, by far. My bladesinger has a 19 AC with bladesong, 24 with shield. As you hit higher levels, your AC can't keep up with enemy attack bonus increases, and your health isn't high enough to tank. IMO it isn't worth delaying Wizard progression to get a slightly higher AC when you shouldn't be getting hit in the first place.

[Hail Tempus]

Wasting levels to multi-class and/or using ASIs on feats to increase a Wizard's AC is a fool's game. Wizards need their ASI's to increase their Intelligence, and they need every Wizard level they can get to increase spells known, spells prepared, and total spell slots.

Armor and high AC are for the big dumb door-kickers in the party who are too stupid to know how to avoid allowing enemies the chance to hit them.

Misty Step gets a Wizard away from the uncouth and unwashed. And some combination of Mage Armor, Shield, Blur and Mirror Image are more then enough to keep the dirty plebians from messing up one's robes.

[Keravath]

If you're playing a non-bladesinger wizard and you're getting hit, the party composition must be horrendous.

Bladesinger is the best choice at low levels, by far. My bladesinger has a 19 AC with bladesong, 24 with shield. As you hit higher levels, your AC can't keep up with enemy attack bonus increases, and your health isn't high enough to tank. IMO it isn't worth delaying Wizard progression to get a slightly higher AC when you shouldn't be getting hit in the first place.



Wasting levels to multi-class and/or using ASIs on feats to increase a Wizard's AC is a fool's game. Wizards need their ASI's to increase their Intelligence, and they need every Wizard level they can get to increase spells known, spells prepared, and total spell slots.

Armor and high AC are for the big dumb door-kickers in the party who are too stupid to know how to avoid allowing enemies the chance to hit them.

Misty Step gets a Wizard away from the uncouth and unwashed. And some combination of Mage Armor, Shield, Blur and Mirror Image are more then enough to keep the dirty plebians from messing up one's robes.

My experience must be quite different from yours. I've found that even standing at the back, creatures will target me because I cast spells. I'd rather not be making concentration checks every time I take a couple of damage from a ranged attack. Its better if they miss. I would rather not have to spend a spell slot on Mage Armor and then have to boost dex using ASIs to get a decent AC so these attacks miss.

Also, as a wizard, I have typically low hit points. When attackers go around the front line or surprise us from behind, I like that they have a decent chance to miss.

With half-plate armor and a shield my base AC is 19. 24 with shield (same as the bladesinger cited above). However, magic items exist and you will probably receive some. At level 9 (1 cleric/8 evoker wizard), I currently have a +2 shield and a ring of protection which raises my base AC to 22 and 27 if I cast shield. This is without magical armor or other magical AC boosting devices. Of course, magical items are campaign dependent but there will typically be some available and if you can use armor and shields then the magical variants will boost your AC without requiring attunement.

As a result, your AC keeps up as well as any other class that can wear medium/heavy armor and use shields. Even an Ancient black dragon with a +15 to hit will hit AC 27 less than 1/2 the time. Compare this to a straight wizard with mage armor and a 16 dex ... 16 AC ... 21 AC with a shield which the dragon hits much more often (even the bladesinger is hit more often though they could wear magical armor if not a shield).

However, it isn't the dragons I am most concerned about. The back line attackers with 3 ranged attacks and a to hit between +7 and +10. Against AC21 this means about half the attacks hit which means a lot of concentration saves while against an AC27 a much smaller fraction hit and fewer concentration saves are required.

This also highlights why a decent constitution and proficiency in con saves become absolutely crucial at higher levels. Without con save proficiency or warcaster, it won't take many concentration saves before you lose concentration on that critical spell. (Bladesinging adds int modifier to concentration saves so it helps in that aspect too).

I would say that if you play in a game against intelligent enemies where your wizard gets to stand at the back doing their own thing without anyone trying to take them down or at least break their concentration then your opponents (and thus the DM) are being unnaturally generous.

If you want to choose a "tankier" wizard option without multiclassing then bladesinger is probably the best choice though the bladesong is a bonus action and is limited to twice/short rest.

However, one level of cleric goes a long way at the cost of delaying your spell selection by a level (though not the slot progression) ... and you pick up 5 or so prepared first level cleric spells and some cantrips which can have a lot of utility at every level.

P.S.
"And some combination of Mage Armor, Shield, Blur and Mirror Image are more then enough to keep the dirty plebians from messing up one's robes."

For a wizard with 16 dex, mage armor gives an AC of 16, 21 with shield which is pretty weak. Blur and Mirror Image both require an action to cast and Blur requires concentration. By the time a wizard spends the first two rounds on defensive spells, the wizard wearing the armor could have killed half the opponents (or locked them down with hypnotic pattern). There is only one level where the multiclass has sufficiently fewer options to be an issue and that is at level 5 when the single class picks up the iconic 3rd level spells which are a significant power boost. The multiclass needs to wait until level 6 but I found that they can make do for one level.

[SirGraystone]

I'm curious, how high do peoples think AC is necessary at say level 1, level 5 and level 10. My group is level 11 and except for our barbarian who traded damage for AC with a shield +2 and has 23 AC, the rest of the group are between 17 and 19 AC and they are doing well so far.

[nickl_2000]

I'm curious, how high do peoples think AC is necessary at say level 1, level 5 and level 10. My group is level 11 and except for our barbarian who traded damage for AC with a shield +2 and has 23 AC, the rest of the group are between 17 and 19 AC and they are doing well so far.

All of it, I need all the AC. If the baddie can hit me on a 19, my AC isn't high enough

Seriously though, if you are non-barbarian tanking I look for
Level 1: 17-18
Level 5: 18-19
Level 10: 20+

Also let it be known that I prefer high AC character, and always will.

[MaxWilson]

I'm curious, how high do peoples think AC is necessary at say level 1, level 5 and level 10. My group is level 11 and except for our barbarian who traded damage for AC with a shield +2 and has 23 AC, the rest of the group are between 17 and 19 AC and they are doing well so far.

Well, it depends. Are you willing to hide behind other PCs, kite enemies with Expeditious Retreat + cantrips/crossbows, and generally play it safe? If so, then your level 1 AC isn't that important, and it's fine to be AC 12 or 13 at level 1.

I'd generally hope to be at least AC 19 by level 5 just because good AC is so cheap to get and so very, very useful against MM monsters.

However, if you're playing 5E on default difficulty (following DMG guidelines on not exceeding Hard fights, not exceeding 100% of an adventuring day budget, and the DM isn't deliberately going out of his way to mess with you by using monsters like Intellect Devourers that punch way above their CR) you could get away with pretty much anything, even AC 10, just by playing it safe.


My experience must be quite different from yours. I've found that even standing at the back, creatures will target me because I cast spells. I'd rather not be making concentration checks every time I take a couple of damage from a ranged attack. Its better if they miss. I would rather not have to spend a spell slot on Mage Armor and then have to boost dex using ASIs to get a decent AC so these attacks miss.

Remember that you can impose disadvantage on ranged attacks with zero concentration cost and zero action cost: just lie prone, as long as no monster is close enough to close + hit you in melee on its next turn. (And sometimes it's worth it even then, depending on how many ranged attackers there are.)

E.g. "I cast Wall of Force on the Vampire and then step back 15' towards the door and drop prone so the skeleton archers can't hit me." It's even better if there's a low obstruction to hide behind so that dropping prone = total cover against some of the archers.

[Gignere]

My experience must be quite different from yours. I've found that even standing at the back, creatures will target me because I cast spells. I'd rather not be making concentration checks every time I take a couple of damage from a ranged attack. Its better if they miss. I would rather not have to spend a spell slot on Mage Armor and then have to boost dex using ASIs to get a decent AC so these attacks miss.
.

Yes if you stand and cast you will be a target but 5e has made it so easy to move cast move. That it is unfathomable that there are people playing stand and cast. Unless your DM plays with absolutely no cover on the encounters, I always move cast move back behind cover (preferably out of LoS). Even when there is no cover provided by the DM, gawd you’re a wizard create your own freaking cover.

Basically in most encounters unless the party is surprised (which shouldn’t happen if you know how to use your familiar, hello bat radar) or if your party has a competent scout.

80 - 90% of an encounter i am not a legal target for the DM unless he readies actions to hit me. Even when he does he is hitting me at disadvantage, targeting my mirror image and when all else fails shield/absorb elements.

[samcifer]

Well now that the Eberron book is out, you could always take a level of Artificer. Since you need 13+ INT to be either an Artificer or a Wizard, you can take one level of Artificer and gain proficiency in shields as well as light and medium armor. Your spellcasting progression wouldn't be hurt too bad that way. another route would be to have 13+ WIS and take 1 level of Cleric to gain up to heavy armor prof. (depending on the cleric sub-class you choose) and you'll have full spell slot progression and only be behind by 1 level's worth of wizard spells.

[Hail Tempus]

For a wizard with 16 dex, mage armor gives an AC of 16, 21 with shield which is pretty weak. Blur and Mirror Image both require an action to cast and Blur requires concentration. By the time a wizard spends the first two rounds on defensive spells, the wizard wearing the armor could have killed half the opponents (or locked them down with hypnotic pattern). There is only one level where the multiclass has sufficiently fewer options to be an issue and that is at level 5 when the single class picks up the iconic 3rd level spells which are a significant power boost. The multiclass needs to wait until level 6 but I found that they can make do for one level. Huh? An AC of 21 is more than most classes can get without magic armor. A fighter with the defensive fighting style wearing plate and shield caps at 21.

Sure, Wizards are going to get attacked from time to time, but it seems to make more sense to have situational spells to increase AC as needed, rather than wasting levels and/or ASIs for a permanent AC boost.

Unless your DM is swarming you with large numbers of enemies, the fear of enemies running past the fighters and attacking the caster is kind of overblown.

Anyway, high AC is kind of overestimated by a lot of players. Especially at higher levels, where enemies fairly routinely have +10 to hit or more.

[SirGraystone]

All of it, I need all the AC. If the baddie can hit me on a 19, my AC isn't high enough

Seriously though, if you are non-barbarian tanking I look for
Level 1: 17-18
Level 5: 18-19
Level 10: 20+

Also let it be known that I prefer high AC character, and always will.

For a melee character that seem fair to me too.

As a DM if i'm faced with a group of high AC characters I'll adjust the encounters to keep them balanced, more spellcasters, elemental damage, breath weapon, not to kill my players but only to keep the game challenging. Do peoples remember more killing a bunch of monsters with barely a scratches or finishing a dungeon by the skin of your teeth?

[MaxWilson]

Anyway, high AC is kind of overestimated by a lot of players. Especially at higher levels, where enemies fairly routinely have +10 to hit or more.

Arguably, against enemies with +10 or so to hit is when high AC is most valuable. If your basic, unenhanced AC is 13-15, don't even bother with AC-based defenses against a +10-17 foe: even with Blur/Protection From Evil, you you're going to get hit, a lot. But if your AC is 21 (+5 from Shield) and you put up Protection From Evil, well, you're not quite immune (against +10, you'll have to spend a Shield on one attack in four, and you'll take damage anyway on 1 attack in 16, and against +17 you'll take damage from one attack in three) but you're in a good position to tank for quite a long time, and you'll be between 3 times and 16 times as good as the guy with AC 13 at keeping your concentration.

BTW, I know that the official spell name is "Protection From Good and Evil" but I refuse to call it that because the spell protects you from evil, i.e. harm. It would be Protection From Good and Evil if it protected you from healing and buff spells as well.

[Keravath]

Yes if you stand and cast you will be a target but 5e has made it so easy to move cast move. That it is unfathomable that there are people playing stand and cast. Unless your DM plays with absolutely no cover on the encounters, I always move cast move back behind cover (preferably out of LoS). Even when there is no cover provided by the DM, gawd you’re a wizard create your own freaking cover.

Basically in most encounters unless the party is surprised (which shouldn’t happen if you know how to use your familiar, hello bat radar) or if your party has a competent scout.

80 - 90% of an encounter i am not a legal target for the DM unless he readies actions to hit me. Even when he does he is hitting me at disadvantage, targeting my mirror image and when all else fails shield/absorb elements.

Sorry, I didn't mean "stand" literally. If there is cover, take advantage of it. However, a wizard behind total cover and more than 60' from opponents is a wizard who isn't casting counterspell and is allowing all their buddies to be fireballed (and possibly themselves since fireball will go around cover). Perhaps it works below level 5 ... not an effective strategy later on.

As for making your own cover? I'm not sure what you would cast or if it would be worthwhile using your action to dig a hole you can hide in rather than using your action against the opponents. (The same goes for the action needed to cast mirror image).

[nickl_2000]

For a melee character that seem fair to me too.

As a DM if i'm faced with a group of high AC characters I'll adjust the encounters to keep them balanced, more spellcasters, elemental damage, breath weapon, not to kill my players but only to keep the game challenging. Do peoples remember more killing a bunch of monsters with barely a scratches or finishing a dungeon by the skin of your teeth?

Yes, that was for a tank. My last bard had an AC of 15 through his entire carrier, and survived perfectly fine. He was not meant to be mucking it up on the front lines.

[Gignere]

Sorry, I didn't mean "stand" literally. If there is cover, take advantage of it. However, a wizard behind total cover and more than 60' from opponents is a wizard who isn't casting counterspell and is allowing all their buddies to be fireballed (and possibly themselves since fireball will go around cover). Perhaps it works below level 5 ... not an effective strategy later on.

As for making your own cover? I'm not sure what you would cast or if it would be worthwhile using your action to dig a hole you can hide in rather than using your action against the opponents. (The same goes for the action needed to cast mirror image).

Your example was with archers also counter spells are overrated unless two of you have it because the enemy can CS your CS.

I tailor my survival tactics and don’t stand out in the open hoping I can CS something when most encounters just not being in fireball formation your group is not going to get fireball.

Even spending an action or two scoping things out or creating cover instead of tossing fireballs right off the bat works out way better. Like cast haste on barbarian than go behind cover so he charges forward, and you’re behind cover. You’re not in fireball formation anymore.

When you don’t have cover one strategy I use is to use illusions to block LoS remember if they don’t spend an action they can’t see through it. That’s way more effective than CS most spells require a point or a target you can see. By blocking their LoS you’re effectively shutting down their casting more effectively than CS. See not blasting the enemies right off the back while buffing the party and debuffing the enemy.

I don’t know in my experience charging in to toss “fireball” and waiting to CS is a bad strategy in probably 80% of the encounters. There are some that you should fireball first before asking questions but those are obvious but very few.

I can only think of one that CS was effective and I was able to CS the caster because I had a staff of swarming insect so he couldn’t see me or target me but I could freely CS him without him CSing my CS. My first action was bringing up the insects to block LoS.

[ThatoneGuy84]

My current bladesinger (not front line) can handle the front line (if needed, but I'm a wizard and I love my battlefield control)

I'm running around with 22 (13 mage armor + 3 dex + 5 int + cloak of protection ) AC while singing, 27 with shield, 29 with haste (if I have to wade in because my "tank" needs assistance, then I almost always haste myself first for extra Action/Ac boost)

I see no reason to dip in the off chance you might have to join the front line.

Worried about those pesky suprise rounds? Make someone in the party get a weapon of warning. Hell get one yourself.

I rarely jump into front lines anymore with my wiz (I did alot more in low level, when my party needed to be bailed out or frankly when there was rarely anything to do at low level other then cast cantrips and I wanted to feel more "useful"

If you have to front line all the time because of your party dynamic, I suggest letting a couple of them die and make tanks.

[Gignere]

My current bladesinger (not front line) can handle the front line (if needed, but I'm a wizard and I love my battlefield control)

I'm running around with 22 (13 mage armor + 3 dex + 5 int + cloak of protection ) AC while singing, 27 with shield, 29 with haste (if I have to wade in because my "tank" needs assistance, then I almost always haste myself first for extra Action/Ac boost)

I see no reason to dip in the off chance you might have to join the front line.

Worried about those pesky suprise rounds? Make someone in the party get a weapon of warning. Hell get one yourself.

I rarely jump into front lines anymore with my wiz (I did alot more in low level, when my party needed to be bailed out or frankly when there was rarely anything to do at low level other then cast cantrips and I wanted to feel more "useful"

If you have to front line all the time because of your party dynamic, I suggest letting a couple of them die and make tanks.

Sentinel shield is better than weapon of warning but as a BS you can’t use that. Our cleric uses the Sentinel Shield to great effect. My lucky feat and divination dice has saved my bacon from bad initiative rolls a few times. Along with my familiar and the rogue we have almost never been surprised.

[AgenderArcee]

Githyanki is pretty nice, you get medium armor with no feat or spell progression delay required. The Strength is wasted but all you really need as a wizard is that Int bonus. Plus you get extra spells from Githyanki Psionics, including invisible mage hand. It's a cool race, too.

[McSkrag]

A single level of Cleric gives the most IMO. Particularly Knowledge Cleric which gives you Expertise in 2 different Int skills plus all the other Cleric goodies. You were comparing each dip to how many feats they give, well a single Cleric level is more like 4 feats considering it's better than taking Magic Initiate and Ritual Caster too. Needing a 13 Wis is NOT a con since you don't want to dump Wis anyway and 13 is easy. Light Cleric is my second choice since it gives you a very useful use of your reaction making you harder to hit. Shout out to Tempest Cleric if you can grab a second level because maximizing Thunder/Lightning damage is awesome especially for Evokers.

+1 for a level of cleric. In addition to all of the above it also does not slow down your spell slot progression.

[Ganryu]

Seriously, mage armor on a blade singer should be enough, your AC becomes ridonkulous, even at low levels. The blade singing is a nice bonus to this, but its not even even needed.

AC = 16 base, yes, but two spells. Blur, and shield. It's effectively 26 now, and you can't get critted. Blade singing will make this 29. this is at level 3.

I had a Char before who lived off blur, the GM hated them because they were untoucable. Wasn't a Blade singer, will say. Was a munchkin Stone Sorcerer+ Hexblade. But the concepts the same.

First ASI, grab resilience Dex.

[TheUser]

Blur, and shield. It's effectively 26 now..

No...it's not.
The game's creators may attribute (dis)advantage to a +/-5 bonus but mathematically it is entirely relative on what their pre-existing chance to hit you is.
Treat it as 21. Throw in blade singing at it's 24.
And that's if you're willing to dump bladesong, blur and shield every fight.

[HiveStriker]

I'm thinking about playing a Wizard but the front line of our party is near nonexistent. I'd like to get good AC, and I noticed the following options are available:

- Bladesinger Tradition


PROS: uninterrupted spell progression, very good bonus to AC and concentration saves while Bladesong is active
CONS: poor AC without Bladesong, no notable tradition bonuses beside AC & concentration, elf race gives poor bonuses
Summary: probably best if you roll very high DEX and INT


Hey ;)

First, I don't think you should shy again of Bladesinger with point-buy. 16 DEX 16 INT and 14 CON is fine in my experience because you also get extra speed!
And two uses of Bladesong every short rest is usually enough.

So only the very first few levesl can be hard because of HP die, but as soon as you get level 3, unless you have some bad luck or get sloppy, you could take a bit of a breather.
And level 4, grab Mobile and you're set, never again will you fear melee (ok I'm overselling it XD but still, it's really good).

OF COURSE, this is for a frontliner that try to aggro by luring enemies away.
If you really want a frontliner as "the one who takes every hit and yet prevails", it's not the best fit.

In which case, I'd say "Evoker Wizard with possibly one level of Hexblade Warlock, or one level of Life Cleric, or two levels of Tempest Cleric".
Evoker allows you some self-blast without worry (neither for close friends) so goes well with aggro.
Hexblade Warlock brings welcome armor proficiency (you really don't want heavy armor anyways) as well as one short rest slot for emergency Shield (let's recall you have many ways to ease short rests as a Wizard).
Life Cleric would give you instead same proficiencies as well as emergency healing for others and decent + cheap armor boost for you.
Two levels of Tempest Cleric would pay very much in the long run, even though you also get Overchannel much (much) later.

Alternative if you really really want to tank (meaning you are ok with 16 INT for a long while):
Fighter 1 / Forge Cleric 1 / Abjuration Wizard X: Cleric brings armor + shield + magic weapon or another +1 as well as Shield of Faith. Fighter is optional, only if you want starting proficiency in CON and/or yet another +1 (Defense FS). Be STR or DEX based (depending on if you want that extra AC from heavy), learn Shadow Blade once you feel SoF has outlived utility, grab Mirror Image (best with Dex) and go to town.


It's not so much about the number of rests--it's how fragile you are whenever you are surprised, lose initiative, get stunned or paralyzed, etc.

13th level Dex 16 Con 14 Int 18 Bladesinger w/ Bladesong: AC 20 (+5 from Shield) and 80 HP.

Then she fails a Con save vs. an Abominable Yeti's paralyzing gaze, and suddenly she's AC 16 (advantage to attackers, no chance to Shield) and the Yeti auto-crits her with two more claw attacks at +11 to hit with advantage (4% chance to miss). In all likelihood, she's now taken 22d6+14 (91) HP of damage in one round and she's probably at 0 HP.

On the other hand, a Paladorc in plate armor and a shield (Paladin 9, Sorc 4, AC 21, 100 HP) would have a better chance not to fail the save in the first place, would have a 25% chance of being missed by the Yeti on each attack, and even if it does hit twice, has enough HP to take the expected 91 HP of damage without dying.

Another case where not having Bladesong matters a lot is on the first round of a combat vs. e.g. 20 Drow Warriors. +4 to hit vs. AC 16 is fairly nasty if they target you, even if you Shield. If she loses initiative she could spend the whole combat face-down, snoring, if the other PCs don't think to shoot at her to wake up her.
As the last time you pick improbable examples...

Level 13 Wizard should have Simulacrum and Contingency, as well as many (MANY) ways to help party detect or avoid danger. Furthermore, why should the party have nobody with high enough WIS to detect surprises and warn in advance?
Or, if you're that afraid of being surprised, Alert is a thing, and always a great feat for any Wizard since he's often the one tasked with landing the big spell that transforms a hard encounter into a breeze.

And why would the party engage 20 Drow Warriors without some proper preparation? If Wizard is engaging alone, he's stupid and merits to die. If he goes with party, then they should organize so that the most frail characters at least get partial cover from their friends, plus Wizard has many ways to gather information and is supposedly the smart character setting up winning strategies.

[MaxWilson]

As the last time you pick improbable examples...

Fairly typical examples really. I didn't even exceed DMG difficulty guidelines: 13th level party vs an Abominable Yeti is an Easy fight, and there are tons of things that can paralyze you.


Level 13 Wizard should have Simulacrum and Contingency, as well as many (MANY) ways to help party detect or avoid danger. Furthermore, why should the party have nobody with high enough WIS to detect surprises and warn in advance?

Er, who said the Bladesinger doesn't have any of that? Maybe you do have Contingencies and Planar Bound Efreeti minions and a Simulacrum and whatnot, and you'll always see enemies coming from a long way off and send your minions to kill them without you getting involved personally. But you'll either get into fights at some point, and then it will matter how fragile you are, or you'll have a boring game and wish you were playing chess instead of D&D.


Or, if you're that afraid of being surprised, Alert is a thing, and always a great feat for any Wizard since he's often the one tasked with landing the big spell that transforms a hard encounter into a breeze.

You're not wrong, but the Bladesinger in that scenario was paralyzed, not surprised. Surprise is also bad for a bladesinger but it's not what the example was.


And why would the party engage 20 Drow Warriors without some proper preparation?

20 CR 1/4 Drow Warriors are a Hard fight for a 5th levle party, a Medium fight for a 7th level party. Are you suggesting that fights against mobs never happen?


If Wizard is engaging alone, he's stupid and merits to die. If he goes with party, then they should organize so that the most frail characters at least get partial cover from their friends, plus Wizard has many ways to gather information and is supposedly the smart character setting up winning strategies.

They should, yes. And yet if they do, and do it perfectly, the game is boring, and the wizard might as well be a Transmuter as a Bladesinger because all of the enemies will be dead before they get anywhere near him. I don't think the OP is asking questions oriented around that kind of game--they're asking about a more traditional, Combat As Sport game where the wizard is going to get to get in fights and your AC matters.

[RifleAvenger]

Plus, even in Combat as War games, plans won't always survive contact with the enemy. The party can divine and scry and spy on the antagonists, and vice versa, and there's still a chance both sides find themselves in the same room with their plans and schemes FUBAR.

Cue them trying to kill each other or fleeing to scheme some more. Conflict is messy, plans go awry, and if the GM is at least as smart as you, playing antagonists as powerful as you, and really wants to catch the party in a fight they will.

[HiveStriker]

Fairly typical examples really. I didn't even exceed DMG difficulty guidelines: 13th level party vs an Abominable Yeti is an Easy fight, and there are tons of things that can paralyze you.



Er, who said the Bladesinger doesn't have any of that? Maybe you do have Contingencies and Planar Bound Efreeti minions and a Simulacrum and whatnot, and you'll always see enemies coming from a long way off and send your minions to kill them without you getting involved personally. But you'll either get into fights at some point, and then it will matter how fragile you are, or you'll have a boring game and wish you were playing chess instead of D&D.



You're not wrong, but the Bladesinger in that scenario was paralyzed, not surprised. Surprise is also bad for a bladesinger but it's not what the example was.



20 CR 1/4 Drow Warriors are a Hard fight for a 5th levle party, a Medium fight for a 7th level party. Are you suggesting that fights against mobs never happen?



They should, yes. And yet if they do, and do it perfectly, the game is boring, and the wizard might as well be a Transmuter as a Bladesinger because all of the enemies will be dead before they get anywhere near him. I don't think the OP is asking questions oriented around that kind of game--they're asking about a more traditional, Combat As Sport game where the wizard is going to get to get in fights and your AC matters.


Plus, even in Combat as War games, plans won't always survive contact with the enemy. The party can divine and scry and spy on the antagonists, and vice versa, and there's still a chance both sides find themselves in the same room with their plans and schemes FUBAR.

Cue them trying to kill each other or fleeing to scheme some more. Conflict is messy, plans go awry, and if the GM is at least as smart as you, playing antagonists as powerful as you, and really wants to catch the party in a fight they will.
My point is: MaxWilson point is useless because he always pick the weakest situation for a character... Without ever considering that the character is in a PARTY.

You ARE supposed to have situations where you suck. Otherwise there is no point in playing in a group.
And whatever optimized group you make, you could still find situations in which they would have a hard time, because of bad luck or tactics.

But if the party doesn't feel ready to win a fight, it should simply agree to act carefully and use every mean at disposal to prepare or avoid. And any party should always also have a few tactics devised to know more or less how to react in case of an ambush or something doing wrong.
If a party knows there are Drows (which are CR 5 in the version I found on internet but it doesn't make any difference about their special ability) in large groups somewhere around, which they should (that large a group will harly get by unnoticed in the long run) they should prepare accordingly.

--> If a party has no wits neither large array of spells to get a slight chance of having the right spell for that right situation (and even then I'm not sure it would be enough), it's bound to fail at some point, optimization or not. :)

[MaxWilson]

My point is: MaxWilson point is useless because he always pick the weakest situation for a character... Without ever considering that the character is in a PARTY.

I call shenanigans. Prove your words, sirrah! [hurls glove in teeth]


Plus, even in Combat as War games, plans won't always survive contact with the enemy. The party can divine and scry and spy on the antagonists, and vice versa, and there's still a chance both sides find themselves in the same room with their plans and schemes FUBAR.

Cue them trying to kill each other or fleeing to scheme some more. Conflict is messy, plans go awry, and if the GM is at least as smart as you, playing antagonists as powerful as you, and really wants to catch the party in a fight they will.

Yeah, and it's exactly this style of game when Bladesong matters least, because when all you want to do is flee, either you haven't acted yet (so Bladesong isn't up) or you have (and you're probably not there any more).

[FabulousFizban]

multiclass

one level of cleric can give you heavy armor and shield of faith

[Blood of Gaea]

Hobgoblin:

Str: 8 or 10
Dex: 13
Con: 14+2
Int: 15+1
Wis: 12
Cha: 8 or 10

ASI: Moderatly Armored (+1 Dex).

So by level for you have medium armor with max dex bonus and a shield. And you're still at 16 Int. Being a Hobgoblin also lets you put off the issue of Concentration checks a bit, so you can wait to get Resilient (Con) or Warcaster.

[16bearswutIdo]

I'd still like to make the point that if you are routinely getting hit as a wizard, to the point where the 20-30 AC from bladesinger +/- shield isn't enough, you might need to rethink your choice of the wizard class. Even as a Bladesinger, Wizard is simply not made to be the front line of the party. It can be passable at low levels, but eventually you're gonna reach the point where you have about ~40hp at level 8 and most things will knock off over half your health in a single turn.

Wizards need to rely on positioning, spells like Mirror Image/Blur/Absorb Elements, and having an actual frontline to survive. I don't think it's worth delaying your spells by a level to get medium armor for non-bladesingers.

As for poor AC without bladesong, it's no worse than any other non-bladesinger wizard. And with 2 uses per short rest, the times you won't have a bladesong available will likely be few and far in-between, since you should be short resting every couple of fights anyway.

[HiveStriker]

I'd still like to make the point that if you are routinely getting hit as a wizard, to the point where the 20-30 AC from bladesinger +/- shield isn't enough, you might need to rethink your choice of the wizard class. Even as a Bladesinger, Wizard is simply not made to be the front line of the party. It can be passable at low levels, but eventually you're gonna reach the point where you have about ~40hp at level 8 and most things will knock off over half your health in a single turn.

Wizards need to rely on positioning, spells like Mirror Image/Blur/Absorb Elements, and having an actual frontline to survive. I don't think it's worth delaying your spells by a level to get medium armor for non-bladesingers.

As for poor AC without bladesong, it's no worse than any other non-bladesinger wizard. And with 2 uses per short rest, the times you won't have a bladesong available will likely be few and far in-between, since you should be short resting every couple of fights anyway.
I think this is the best way to state the thinking to follow. Good job. :)
Frontline =/= tanking.

No Wizard is made to tank without very specific selections and severe investment.
Several Wizards can be made to frontline with some archetypes and spells and being witty all the time.

[MaxWilson]

As for poor AC without bladesong, it's no worse than any other non-bladesinger wizard. And with 2 uses per short rest, the times you won't have a bladesong available will likely be few and far in-between, since you should be short resting every couple of fights anyway.

The point is that having AC 21 all the time is better than having +Int to AC after you take a bonus action for Bladesong. This thread is comparing the pros and cons of various ways to get high AC, and so far it looks like Cleric 1 is winning.

Personally, I'd rather be e.g. an AC 21 Enchanter X/Forge Cleric 1 who can at-will disable enemies with Hypnotic Charm and deflect them with Instinctive Charm, etc., than an AC 19-21ish Bladesinger X+1. Yes the Bladesinger gets Fireball/Simulacrum one level earlier, but I get to have *fun* in melee making monsters hit each other even when I'm invisible, disabling big monsters with Hypnotic Gaze, eventually Twinning my Tasha's/Charm Monster spells, etc., in addition to the usual wizard tricks like Tiny Servant and Polymorph. Waiting a little longer for spells isn't going to be painful when I can already do more with the spells I have, especially since I have just as many spell slots as the Bladesinger.

Ditto for Necro/Cleric or Diviner/Cleric or War Wizard/Cleric or Abjuror/Cleric or Illusionist/Cleric: I'd rather have those subclass features than get spell access one level earlier.

(RE: Enchanter, fun in melee is important because melee is not a *strong* strategy if you want to stay alive. Most monsters have poor ranged attacks and can be killed most effectively at range, so if you're in melee and staying there it's likely because these monsters aren't strong enough to kill you and you want to have fun, as a player. E.g. you're going to maybe melee a Hill Giant or Fire Giant but not a Medusa/Gorgon or an Abominable Yeti or a Beholder.)

[Spiritchaser]

I’m not sure how arguments such as “not meant to be on the front lines” can be all that useful.

Sure, if The party gets the drop on a group of... whatever... I’m not going to have the forces of evil focus fire on the wizard at the drop of a pointy hat, but if even one of them is in a position to make intelligent commands, they will be sooner than later.

If you are the biggest threat, and the enemy figures that out, then they will pivot their offence to address that.

Solve this with AC, a ward or whatever, but expect to get shot at.

I don’t mind bladesong, and it IS fun, but I’ve seen it be pretty ineffective against anything that I threw at the party which got the drop on them for a round, plus by default it means you don’t have an abjurer or a war wizard. I’m of the opinion that a good suit of full/half plate and a shield is just better often enough that it matters. Throw in the likelihood that at least some magic will fall your way and I’d select the iron wizard first, cleric/fighter dip second, or hexblade for ward shinanigans if and only if you specifically want ward shinanigans.

Artificer might also be cool but my copy of the rules doesn’t arrive until this afternoon. I’ll have to see.

[MrCharlie]

As others have said, Forge Cleric/Wizard is an obvious one. I've played a couple, and call them Iron Wizards. There are a few added benefits beyond proficiency-namely, identify for free and free magic armor. The main issue is delaying wizard spells and appearing to require 4 decentish ability scores to work well; namely, you want enough STR to not suffer super high encumbrance penalties (and to justify being in full plate all the time in character, likely) enough WIS to qualify for multi-class, and high CON and INT because wizard. The negatives of this are that if you want a legit STR score of 15 to not take the speed penalty for full-plate, you can only buy a 12 CON and 8 DEX. This makes you strong against AC attacks, but terrible against DEX saves (low HP pool and you will fail them) at which point you a banking on absorb elements or some other work around.

If you can justify dumping STR the situation is better. If you use variant encumbrance than your typical dump stat STR of 8 means you can carry around 10 pounds of gear minus armor/shield before you suffer heavy encumbrance and everything is terrible. That's barely a staff, component pouch, and spellbook+bag. A STR of at least 10 means you at least have a working carrying capacity of 30 before heavy encumbrance.

(If you don't use encumbrance, go nuts with 8 STR, wizards don't need to hustle and if they do they can teleport).

So in summary I recommend something like a point buy of STR 10 DEX 10 CON 15 INT 15 WIS 13 CHA 8 if you are human, with that odd CON axed if you are a Hobgoblin or elf or whatnot that either has +2 CON or no CON boost at all. Any points are redistributed into DEX if you can reduce CON or STR.

Incidentally, Iron Wizards should have an AC of 20-21 without buffs (depending on if you can afford to fabricate plate yet) and an AC of 23 if you use an AC booster like shield of faith or haste, and you can shield up to AC 28. Which is good enough to significantly reduce incoming damage from anything, even high level monsters, but not good enough to ignore them. Add magic items as found; I'd expect +3 more AC in total unless the campaign is monty haul or other people grab them first.

(Remember, fabricate can make plate if you have smith's tools in 1 minute at half-cost; just make sure to be 5 feet tall or less if your DM is picky).

The other thing to note is that you can go abjuration, which I recommend for any tanky wizard plans. Abjuration synergies well with frontline wizarding, because A. you will be in counterspell range of enemy casters and B. you will survive being in counterspell range of enemy casters with absorb elements, shield, wards, and resistance to all magic. There are also a lot of low level cleric spells which can trigger ward recharge, like shield of faith, sanctuary, and protection from good and evil, which all work into higher levels, don't need WIS to cast well (except sanctuary), and fit the archetype.

To put my two cents in with other potential builds;

War Wizard is pretty lackluster as a main class. It's best for Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, and maybe even paladins who can use it's level 2 reaction abilities for basically free, particularly to get +4 to a save every turn, along with some important wizard abjurations and INT to initiative. But if you have to go with War Wizard, it works very well with a Githyanki with SCAG cantrips, as you can use a greatsword+booming/greenflame after using arcane deflection for a somewhat decent hit. Just remember to keep dancing lights all the time unless you have a reason not to, for that AC/Save boost at level 10.

Bladesingers have too few HP to really survive, too much MAD to pick up enough CON/Tough feats (combined with elf requirement) to survive non-attack damage. DEX can only go so far-the first undead which smashes you with CON save against necrotic damage get's a free meal. Your AC is going to be good, but this is a holistic look at what your sacrificing. However you can simply ignore the features entirely you get to add INT to AC, get a bonus to concentration saves, and can use Song of Defense to almost perfectly replicate the arcane ward from abjuration wizards at the expense of eating spell slots for no benefit (abjuration casts the spell) and eating your reaction (which abjuration wizards can counter-spell with, or shield, or absorb elements...) and your AC is ultimately only going to match the AC of a Iron Wizard. The main takeaway is that Cleric/Wizard matches AC while not sacrificing other methods of living, for the expense of delaying spell levels by 1.

Finally, just being a hobgoblin or Githyanki or somesuch does not really improve AC, what you really need is shield proficiency or an AC method independent of DEX. An elf wizard can start with 16 AC with mage armor; a Githyanki with half-plate gets 17 AC. Why bother? The reason this matters is because we don't want to sacrifice ABI for AC if we don't have to, Wizards don't use both hands anyway, and heavy armor is the best AC without specific builds anyway.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Without multiclassing, I like bladesinger in high elf for the dex, bonus int. In my game ya get a bonus feat, (my table is popular) so using warcaster helps.

Mage armor. Mirror Image. Blur. AC gets good, you get harder to hit. Shadowblade gets your damage off the 1d8+DEX rapier level.

My player is using a familiar to deliver shocking grasp or dragon's breath. She steps into the front when she wants, fades when she wants (misty step if necessary).

HP is still a problem no matter what wizard flavor.

[MaxWilson]

I don’t mind bladesong, and it IS fun, but I’ve seen it be pretty ineffective against anything that I threw at the party which got the drop on them for a round, plus by default it means you don’t have an abjurer or a war wizard. I’m of the opinion that a good suit of full/half plate and a shield is just better often enough that it matters. Throw in the likelihood that at least some magic will fall your way and I’d select the iron wizard first, cleric/fighter dip second, or hexblade for ward shinanigans if and only if you specifically want ward shinanigans.

Side note: I agree, blade song is fun, and it's especially fun in scenarios where you want more mobility and stealth than plate armor can offer. Rogue 2/Bladesinger X is arguably the game's best scout, because not only do you have Stealth Expertise and Cunning Action (Hide/Dash), but you also have a wizard's ability to go Invisible to sneak past guards even in open areas or Dimension Door out of trouble, possess bodies with Magic Jar, Disguise Self, etc. And because you're a Bladesinger, you're still plenty good at e.g. taking out an individual guard quietly with a a knife to the throat or an Athletics Expertise-boosted grapple + gag.

You're not tankier than a plate-armored Forge Cleric/Wizard, but you're sneakier, and that is its own kind of fun which IMO can justify missing out on other wizard subclass features.


Incidentally, Iron Wizards should have an AC of 20-21 without buffs (depending on if you can afford to fabricate plate yet) and an AC of 23 if you use an AC booster like shield of faith or haste, and you can shield up to AC 28. Which is good enough to significantly reduce incoming damage from anything, even high level monsters, but not good enough to ignore them. Add magic items as found; I'd expect +3 more AC in total unless the campaign is monty haul or other people grab them first.

Random comment: if you use Protection From Evil or Blur/Greater Invisibility, as appropriate, instead of Shield of Faith/Haste, you've got AC 21 (26 with Shield) + disadvantage, which does let you virtually ignore any monster which relies on physical attacks up to about +10. IMO it's more worthwhile than Shield of Faith, especially since it virtually negates any chance of crits.

[MrCharlie]

Random comment: if you use Protection From Evil or Blur/Greater Invisibility, as appropriate, instead of Shield of Faith/Haste, you've got AC 21 (26 with Shield) + disadvantage, which does let you virtually ignore any monster which relies on physical attacks up to about +10. IMO it's more worthwhile than Shield of Faith, especially since it virtually negates any chance of crits.
Agreed! Except it needs to be against things that the spell applies to-even blur/greater invisibility can be countered by truesight monsters. Shield of faith still has niche use because A. it's a bonus action, B. it works against everything, and C. it's got range (but that's what familiars are for). Oh, and obviously D. disadvantage doesn't stack, I've done dodge action shield of faith a couple times as a panic button.

Otherwise, it's best to get disadvantage, due to the way the math works. Which is good, because finding what to do with two first level cleric spells with minimum WIS would be painful if they didn't get protection and a couple other options.

[MaxWilson]

Agreed! Except it needs to be against things that the spell applies to-even blur/greater invisibility can be countered by truesight monsters.

Agreed, but most of the big ones tend to be blocked by Protection From Evil instead.

Things with truesight are Mariliths, Glabrezu, Nalfeshnee, Pit Fiends, Demiliches, Empyreans, Planetars, Solars, etc... all Fiends/Celestials, and then also Krakens (monstrosities) and Modrons (constructs).

There's about a hundred monsters with blindsight in the MM, but a huge chunk of them are the dozens of types of dragons, and there are a few weaklings like Twig Blights (plants) and Animated Rugs (constructs) and Black Puddings, but the only consequential non-dragons I am aware of with blindsight are Marids (blocked by Protection From Evil) and Purple Worms (monstrosities). Anything else will be blocked by regular armor + shield + Shield, even without Blur.


Shield of faith still has niche use because A. it's a bonus action, B. it works against everything, and C. it's got range (but that's what familiars are for). Oh, and obviously D. disadvantage doesn't stack, I've done dodge action shield of faith a couple times as a panic button.

I prefer Dodge + Sanctuary as a panic button to Dodge + Shield, but of course you can stack them both if you panic two rounds in a row. :) Sanctuary doesn't mess up any ongoing concentration spells though. You can also use it in interesting ways, e.g. grapple + Sanctuary, or even Sanctuary + Invisibility (on a different round) and then run into combat using Hypnotic Gaze. (Hypnotic Gaze does not break Sanctuary or invisibility! You can keep Invisibility up for a whole hour, safely using Hypnotic Gaze in multiple combats on one Invisibility spell slot! The main thing though is that you can't Shield or it breaks Invisibility, but you can still use Instinctive Charm.)

Shield of Faith is definitely a good spell though. And it's cheap. : )


Otherwise, it's best to get disadvantage, due to the way the math works. Which is good, because finding what to do with two first level cleric spells with minimum WIS would be painful if they didn't get protection and a couple other options.

Agree. My go-to Cleric 1 spells are Shield of Faith, Sanctuary, Bless, and to a lesser extent Healing Word and Command ("Flee!").

[Merudo]

With the new Artificer out, a single level of Artificer seems a valid alternative to get constitution + armor proficiency.

Is this any better than the Cleric option? The prospect of casting Sanctuary using INT is pretty exciting to me.

[MrCharlie]

With the new Artificer out, a single level of Artificer seems a valid alternative to get constitution + armor proficiency.

Is this any better than the Cleric option? The prospect of casting Sanctuary using INT is pretty exciting to me.
Looking at it, you don't get heavy armor-so you'd want a bit more DEX. This spares you from having to have WIS, not that WIS or DEX are bad stats in general. Your AC will end up being one lower, but that was assuming you got plate eventually-of course, Wizards can fabricate plate for half-cost, so that assumption is pretty valid, but who knows. And CON is a better save than WIS, particularly for us; you can almost consider it as a saved feat on war-caster later (of course, they do stack...)

That said, as artificer is technically a half-caster, they don't contribute spell slots until their second level, despite that WOTC broke tradition and let them start casting at level 1. So you delay spell slot progression by 1 level, and ultimately end up with less spells; you can take a free artificer level later without delaying further, but there is little reason to as you eventually lose out on a feat, and delaying even more so you can have some infusions is pointless. I suppose a bladesinger/battlesmith artificer build might work, but your proficiency with armor and shields won't work with bladesinger so it's irrelevant for this build.

All in all, it's a valid option that sacrifices some ultimate power for a degree of practicality and some more synergistic spellcasting modifiers-not that most artificer spells use the modifier to begin with, but your cure wounds is stronger at least.

[Dork_Forge]

That said, as artificer is technically a half-caster, they don't contribute spell slots until their second level, despite that WOTC broke tradition and let them start casting at level 1. So you delay spell slot progression by 1 level, and ultimately end up with less spells; you can take a free artificer level later without delaying further, but there is little reason to as you eventually lose out on a feat, and delaying even more so you can have some infusions is pointless. I suppose a bladesinger/battlesmith artificer build might work, but your proficiency with armor and shields won't work with bladesinger so it's irrelevant for this build.

A one level dip in Artificer contributes one caster level the same as if you dipped a caster.

Battle Smith/Bladesinger is nice in that you have your Steel Defender to provide disadvantage (and flanking if applicable but this is about tanking) and have access to buff spells a Wizard typically doesn't. It's a bit at odds with itself in that you still need Dex for AC so the SADness isn't maximised, but you can throw an oddball like playing a Warforged with infused armor or a Tortle to crank up AC (providing you have a DM willing to lift the stupid restriction). I think Blade Singer Battle Smith would be fun, but maybe not the most optimal.

[Izur Saiga]

This is the rule regarding spell slots and multiclassing with the Artificer:


Add half your levels (rounded up) in the artificer class to the appropriate levels from other classes to determine your available spell slots.

So the Wizard spell slot progression won't be impaired, as it wouldn't be if dipping another full caster.


For a one level dip, with both medium armor and CON save proficiencies, this is pretty good. I'd rather have the CON save than the other Cleric features, but if you want to maximize AC going with Forge Cleric might be worth it.

For a two level dip, I'd go with Fighter for Action Surge.

[MaxWilson]

That said, as artificer is technically a half-caster, they don't contribute spell slots until their second level

Correction: according to the Artificer class description, when multiclassing you round up for Artificers, not down, so 1 Artificer level contributes 1 level, same as a cleric.

@Merudo, it's an interesting idea and it does make you less MAD (Dex/INT instead of (Str)/INT/Wis), but Artificer is less front-loaded than Cleric and you probably want Wisdom anyway. The difference between Sanctuary DC 13 (at mid-levels) and DC 17 is significant, but Sanctuary is a panic button anyway, and other artificer spells like Faerie Fire are decent but not better than what you had already. Personally I'd still be more tempted by Forge Cleric for that tasty AC 21 or AC 20 and magic weapon for the party fighter, or Hexblade for Hexblade's Curse Magic Missile shenanigans.

You could probably do it and not regret it though.

[Merudo]

Looking at it, you don't get heavy armor-so you'd want a bit more DEX. This spares you from having to have WIS, not that WIS or DEX are bad stats in general. Your AC will end up being one lower, but that was assuming you got plate eventually-of course, Wizards can fabricate plate for half-cost, so that assumption is pretty valid, but who knows. And CON is a better save than WIS, particularly for us; you can almost consider it as a saved feat on war-caster later (of course, they do stack...)

Heavy Armor requires 15 STR to avoid the movement penalty. So in practice, the Cleric multiclass requires 15 STR and 13 WIS, while the Artificer multiclass is best with 14 DEX.

The -10 to speed is highly significant, especially if you play a race with 25 speed (Gnome). I can't imagine putting heavy armor on a gnome and shuffling around with 15 feet of movement per turn...


Correction: according to the Artificer class description, when multiclassing you round up for Artificers, not down, so 1 Artificer level contributes 1 level, same as a cleric.

Thank you, I was unaware of this.

[Merudo]

The difference between Sanctuary DC 13 (at mid-levels) and DC 17 is significant, but Sanctuary is a panic button anyway

The fact that Sanctuary is a panic button is exactly why it should have high DC. And the difference between DC 13 and DC 17 is +4, which is immense (almost as good as what Shield gets you).

Sanctuary is especially good to the Enchanter. Hypnotic Gaze does not break the Sanctuary.

[stoutstien]

Im working on a alchemist/Necro wizard combo. Ordering a bunch of minions to drink EE at once and slap infusions on them to boot. Artificer X/wizard 6.

[Spiritchaser]

Side note: I agree, blade song is fun, and it's especially fun in scenarios where you want more mobility and stealth than plate armor can offer. Rogue 2/Bladesinger X is arguably the game's best scout, because not only do you have Stealth Expertise and Cunning Action (Hide/Dash), but you also have a wizard's ability to go Invisible to sneak past guards

Heh

One campaign I’m DMing at the moment features a stealthy Bladesinger and a stealthy druid.

With wildshape (harmless critter), invisibility and pass without trace those two have gotten in to some pretty absurd places

Sometimes they even get out as well