Examples of sorcerer abilities needed

[BeefGood]

A player in my campaign, a kid, chose sorcerer but is having second thoughts because so few spells. Metamagic in the abstract doesn’t mean much to him. I am new to sorcerers as well so not good at explaining upside of sorcerers.
I could use some specific examples/stories of cool sorcerer abilities, to show the player what he’s getting in exchange for the limitations of the spells known.
Other info: multiclass okay, feats okay, he’s a triton. We will do some sea-themed adventures.
Thank you.

[Eragon123]

It would help a lot if we knew which subclass he chose.

[Dr. Cliché]

If metamagic doesn't mean much to him then he's probably not in for a good time with the Sorcerer, no matter how you try to spin it.

[BeefGood]

It would help a lot if we knew which subclass he chose.
Divine soul

[Aett_Thorn]

Divine soul

Does he want to be a healer? If so, taking Twin Spell so that he can heal two people at once is always nice. Twin Healing Word and you still have an action left to cast a Cantrip.

Subtle spell is also very nice in that it allows the character to cast spells pretty much without anyone noticing. Great for charm spells and illusions. Merchant not willing to give you a good deal? Subtle charm person and then try to haggle some more.

Or if they prefer to be more of a blaster type character, Careful Spell can allow them to use AoE spells even if teammates are around.

[Damon_Tor]

IMO, the best thing about sorcerers is their ability to melt down low-level spell slots and turn them into higher level spell slots. Go big or go home.

[Jerrykhor]

I am new to sorcerers as well so not good at explaining upside of sorcerers.

That's because there aren't any.

Joking aside, Sorcerers are awfully restrictive, which isn't quite apparent at first glance. People like to spout how 'flexible' they are, but it doesn't feel that way in play. They probably get better at higher levels, because you absolutely need those sorcery points.

IMO the coolest thing they can do is usually related to the Subtle metamagic. Other than that, maybe twin certain powerful spells, or quicken certain spells to free up action economy.

If the kid is concerned by small number of spells known, then stay away from this class.

[BeefGood]

Thanks all for the replies. Not much love for sorcerers. I will see whether player has a second-choice class.

[Aett_Thorn]

Wizard may be a better fit for them than Sorcs. More flexibility, and less fiddly bits. Not sure if they were hoping to be a Charisma-based class or just wanted to sling spells. But if they just want to hurl fireballs around, then an Evoker Wizard is a good choice.

[Theaitetos]

Divine Soul sorcerers are incredibly versatile and can produce unique effects due to the available cleric spell list. Some good choices at early levels:
Bless is a very strong buff for your party
Inflict Wounds is the most powerful level 1 damage spell
Charm Person and Command are great control spells
Sanctuary is a strong defense spell, that allows you to protect a vulnerable ally or yourself
All of these spells (except Bless) are twinnable, if he choses that metamagic at level 3. For example, you can Command two enemies to "hug" (restrain each other if your DM allows it) or make them do other shenanigans for a round.
At 2nd spell level, you get Enlarge/Reduce, Silence and Hold Person, which are great. Enlarge allows you to change objects (or creatures) in size, which can be (ab)used in thousands of ways: reduce a locked door to pass through or reduce even something as big as a ship to half-size to devastating effects. If he takes the Subtle metamagic, then Silence is devastating to other spellcasters or can later be used to sneak through critical areas. Twinned Hold Person takes out two humanoid enemies at once.

[patchyman]

Divine soul sorcerers are tough for a beginning player. Even though I don’t like the fluff, draconic sorcerers with empowered and quicken make great blasters.

Divine souls are fun if you want to play a Cha-cleric who doesn’t wear medium armor, or a cleric with access to blasting spells.

[HiveStriker]

A player in my campaign, a kid, chose sorcerer but is having second thoughts because so few spells. Metamagic in the abstract doesn’t mean much to him. I am new to sorcerers as well so not good at explaining upside of sorcerers.
I could use some specific examples/stories of cool sorcerer abilities, to show the player what he’s getting in exchange for the limitations of the spells known.
Other info: multiclass okay, feats okay, he’s a triton. We will do some sea-themed adventures.
Thank you.
Hi!

First, since you're DM (from what I understand), if you want to make it a tad easier to him, maybe you could make him learn an armor proficiency early by spending downtime and gold.

Barring that.

For any Sorcerer, Subtle is a massive feature, making Sorcerer better than many other classes.
A few examples:
- Quickly escaping: Subtle Disguise Self just as you turn a corner, or create a running Silent Image of yourself to lure away pursuers.
- Impersonating someone for a very long time: same, except repeat each hour (best with a single level dip in Warlock).
- Helping a friend succeeding on concluding a contract although no help is normally authorized by Subtle Enhance Ability.


In general, using creative (like Silent Image) or intrusive (like Suggestion / Detect Thoughts) with very little risk of being detected (you still need material components, but since no somatic, just holding your focus "inside" your clothes should be seen as enough, at least it's how I rule it).

In general, having the certitude you can safely attempt a Counterspell or Dispel Magic (since noone can detect you casting).

In general, being able to cast spells in peculiar situations (like, *ahem totally random example*, UNDERWATER o/).

There are simply an extremely wide array of situations where Sorcerer has the best success/risk ratio of spellcasting attempts of all casters with that simple Metamagic.

For any Sorcerer, Quicken makes them the best of all casters at action economy... For a cost, that starts very steep then progressively diminishes (proportional to your expanding reserve of SP and slots) to end as minimal. :)
Pick a "regular caster" build, ex Bard or Wizard tailored around control spells and otherwise relying on ranged cantrips for mundane turns.
As smart and careful as a PC (and party) may be, there will be situations where...
a) You are too far away from the range of spell you want to use to cover it with normal move.
b) Your concentration is under threat by several ranged attackers and there is no cover atteinable by normal movement.
c) One or several melee enemies managed to reach you.

a) Usual options...
- If you use an "X Step" spell, you cannot use anything other than a cantrip (since they use bonus action) so it's useless.
- If you use Dash as an action, then you're screwed unless the spell you wanted to use was actually a bonus action/reaction one.
Both cases: you "lost a turn".
Sorcerer option:
Dash, Quicken your "action spell". -> You spent a small (high level) to significant (low level) chunk of resources to keep your turn efficient.

b) Usual options...
- Best case 1: you don't have ongoing concentration so you can cast whatever feels best that you have between Invisibility, Blur -> you spent your action on this, so unless you have something offensive to contribute with bonus action (Flaming Sphere for example), you didn't contribute anything that round.
- Best case 2: use an "X Step": you can still use a cantrip to deal some damage, nothing else.
- Other case 1: you'll have to either Dash to hope reaching a cover, or Dodge. In both cases, unless you had an ongoing spell with bonus action repeat, you'll be of no value that round.
- Other case 2: you have Shield and count on it to make attacks miss.
Sorcerer option:
Either Dash or Dodge, whichever feels better. You can still cast a cantrip or spell with Quicken, AND you also have Shield to top it off if needed.

c) Usual options...
More or less the same as in b), except that Disengage may be better than Dash/Dodge.

For any Sorcerer, and especially Divine Soul Sorcerer, Extend metamagic can be gravy.
a) Many spells Sorcerer can learn are upcastable: either on power (Sleep), or on targets (Invisibility, Fly, Enhance Ability, Hold Person). So, for some of them, regular time is enough. For many of them, doubling time means it requires much less anticipation to use well, and error in that anticipation has less risk of having consequences.
- Exemple: sneaking away/around a region with enemies unpredictably around: unless the party is very large, although it's obviously much more costly than a Pass Without Trace, Sorcerer could Extend an upcast Invisibility/Fly.
- Exemple: lockpicking a door / searching a room / crossing a difficult area while avoiding violence: 2mn of Sleep / Hypnotic Pattern makes it easier to finish in time, for just a portion of the cost of two chained spells.
- Exemple: ambushing: you know when enemy arrives, not *exactly when* though: whenever you want to buff someone (Haste/Dragon's Breath/Enlarge/whatever), 2mn means much lower chance to have buff end too early, while allowing you to start fight with your first turn available.
- Exemple: keeping precious resource at low levels (slots) by prebuffing yourself with Mage Armor whenever you have at least one slot left before long rest.

b) Divine Soul particularty has great Extendable spells: upcast Aid makes a big difference especially for casters, Death Ward also, and a 20mn Spirit Guardians has a much higher chance of being usable in two encounters in a row when exploring a dungeon.

For your player particularly:
I'd strongly suggest him grabbing Ritual Caster for either Cleric (Forbiddance! Water Walk), Wizard (Find Familiar, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing), Bard (Comprehend Languages, Leomund's Tiny Hut) and otherwise Druid (Water Breathing AND Water Walk).

Wizard is probably the best "all around" but Water Walk not being ritual castable is a bit sad. Still you could always write Water Breathing and keep Walk learnt.

[DarknessEternal]

Let him make a character he likes, assuming he knows what that is now, instead of forcing a square peg into a round hole.

[Theaitetos]

For your player particularly:
I'd strongly suggest him grabbing Ritual Caster for either Cleric (Forbiddance! Water Walk), Wizard (Find Familiar, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing), Bard (Comprehend Languages, Leomund's Tiny Hut) and otherwise Druid (Water Breathing AND Water Walk).

I absolutely disagree with this suggestion. Ritual Caster (Cleric) is a complete and utter waste!

A Divine Soul Sorcerer can take Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) instead of Ritual Caster (Cleric), since the Cleric rituals are already part of his sorcerer spell list, i.e. if you take Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) you get all the sorcerer rituals AND the cleric rituals at the same time. This means you get all cleric rituals AND Comprehend Languages AND Water Breathing AND Water Walking.

So if your player takes Ritual Caster, take Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) and enjoy the best of both worlds.

[Garfunion]

If your player is not interested in meta-magic but likes the divine/arcane mix, may I suggest Arcane Domain Cleric.
The cleric has better HP and armor. If the idea of choosing spells each day feels bad for them, just have them make a primary spell list and forget the rest. Once they feel proficient with spells, they can changing the list if they want to.
Additionally seeing as you are the DM allow them to replace one of their domain spells with a wizard/sorcerer spell of their choice.

[Corran]

A Divine Soul Sorcerer can take Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) instead of Ritual Caster (Cleric), since the Cleric rituals are already part of his sorcerer spell list, i.e. if you take Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) you get all the sorcerer rituals AND the cleric rituals at the same time.
Ritual caster allows to select rituals from the spell list of a class, not from the spell list of a subclass.

[Jophiel]

I grabbed a one level cleric dip on my Divine Soul. Gave me heavy armor*, more cantrip options and a bunch more spell options. You can use your Sorcerer spell choices for Attack/DC-critical spells and the cleric side for Bless, Healing Word, Sanctuary, etc

In combat, I enjoy playing a support role, Twinning spells like Haste or Polymorph and keeping concentration up between good AC, Sanctuary (and Shield if I need it) and Warcaster. A couple specific examples of encounters where I had a significant impact include a multiple lower level fights where Twinning Healing Word kept us from wiping and a battle against a high level wizard who was easily wiping us and making ample use of Counterspell; a Subtle Suggestion that he could let us leave like defeated dogs rather than outright killing us allowed the few standing survivors to drag out our other members and call it a lesson learned.

*I went Life but, if I had to do it again, I would have taken a different Domain, probably Forge.

[Kane0]

Perhaps try the Storm sorcerer, it will fit very well for a Triton going on sea adventures.

Subtle, Empowered and Elemental (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-ClassFeatures.pdf) are all good and cheap metamagic options.

For spell selection have a look at Catapult, Fog Cloud, Sleep, Enlarge/Reduce, Invisibility and Suggestion.

[Theaitetos]

Ritual caster allows to select rituals from the spell list of a class, not from the spell list of a subclass.

There is no sorcerer subclass spell list. The Divine Soul class feature literally allows you to add cleric spells to your sorcerer spell list. Duh.


I grabbed a one level cleric dip on my Divine Soul. Gave me heavy armor*, more cantrip options and a bunch more spell options. You can use your Sorcerer spell choices for Attack/DC-critical spells and the cleric side for Bless, Healing Word, Sanctuary, etc

This is a solid choice, but requires WIS 13 for multiclass (MAD). Instead you can take 1 level in Hexblade warlock, which gives you Light & Medium Armor + Shields, Eldritch Blast, and 2 short rest spell slots. An additional level in warlock gives you 2 cool invocations. A third level in warlock increases the spell slots to 2nd-level, gives you the powerful pact boon, and enables selecting pact invocations, for example: Heavy Armor proficiency (Eldritch Armor, Blade pact), concentration saving throw advantage (Eldritch Mind, Tome pact), familiar improvements (Chain pact).


A couple specific examples of encounters where I had a significant impact include a multiple lower level fights where Twinning Healing Word kept us from wiping and a battle against a high level wizard who was easily wiping us and making ample use of Counterspell; a Subtle Suggestion that he could let us leave like defeated dogs rather than outright killing us allowed the few standing survivors to drag out our other members and call it a lesson learned.

Cast Silence on the Wizard, if need be cast it subtle so it can't be counterspelled.

[Undyne]

A human raises his hands high, as a small spark flies from it. The spark erupts into a sphere of fire, engulfing the troop of goblins, and before the two remaining survivors could blink, they each are hit with a burst of flame. (Quicken Spell Fireball followed by Twin Spell Fire Bolt from a Red/Gold/Brass Draconic Sorcerer)

A Half Elf giggles as she drops a ball of shadow, cloaking her allies as they escape the sight of the Ogre chasing them. (Shadow Sorcerer.)

A Teifling smirks as his team is tied up. Before the Drow before him knows what's going on, a ghastly hand strangles her. (Subtle Spell Chill Touch.)

Tell them that, while sorcerers have few spells, they make up with how they can augment them with Metamagic, and . And if they wants some more variety of spells, they can play a Divine Soul Sorcerer, which gives them the Cleric spell list as well.

[Corran]

There is no sorcerer subclass spell list. The Divine Soul class feature literally allows you to add cleric spells to your sorcerer spell list. Duh.
Specific beats general. Ritual casters says that you pick a class, so let's say we pick ritual caster [sorcerer]. Now we have a ritual book in which we can store ritual spells from the sorcerer's spell list and cast them as rituals. Not from both the cleric's and the sorcerer's spell lists, but only from the sorcerer's spell list. Why? Because ritual caster says that this is exactly what we do. Divine soul may allow you to treat the cleric spells you pick as sorcerer spells, but that did not modify the list of spells known to sorcerers.

[HiveStriker]

I absolutely disagree with this suggestion. Ritual Caster (Cleric) is a complete and utter waste!

A Divine Soul Sorcerer can take Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) instead of Ritual Caster (Cleric), since the Cleric rituals are already part of his sorcerer spell list, i.e. if you take Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) you get all the sorcerer rituals AND the cleric rituals at the same time. This means you get all cleric rituals AND Comprehend Languages AND Water Breathing AND Water Walking.

So if your player takes Ritual Caster, take Ritual Caster (Sorcerer) and enjoy the best of both worlds.
True I forgot about Divine Soul Sorcerer getting both spelllists, good catch.

Strongly disagree on Cleric's list being useless by itself though.

Specific beats general. Ritual casters says that you pick a class, so let's say we pick ritual caster [sorcerer]. Now we have a ritual book in which we can store ritual spells from the sorcerer's spell list and cast them as rituals. Not from both the cleric's and the sorcerer's spell lists, but only from the sorcerer's spell list. Why? Because ritual caster says that this is exactly what we do. Divine soul may allow you to treat the cleric spells you pick as sorcerer spells, but that did not modify the list of spells known to sorcerers.
Hmm. That actually feels closer to RAW, sadly. ^^

[Avista]

There's a very good Sorcerer's guide I used, but it focuses heavily on the metamagic:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...kNLeVBISzZxMzQ

It'll depend what kind of spellcaster your friend is looking for. Sorcerers get more bang for their spells, but a wizard is more versatile.

[Theaitetos]

Specific beats general. Ritual casters says that you pick a class, so let's say we pick ritual caster [sorcerer]. Now we have a ritual book in which we can store ritual spells from the sorcerer's spell list and cast them as rituals. Not from both the cleric's and the sorcerer's spell lists, but only from the sorcerer's spell list. Why? Because ritual caster says that this is exactly what we do. Divine soul may allow you to treat the cleric spells you pick as sorcerer spells, but that did not modify the list of spells known to sorcerers.

Exactly, Specific (the Divine Soul feature) beats General (the Ritual Caster feat):

The Divine Soul feature lets you add cleric spells to your sorcerer spells list, which is why you can for example also cast cleric spells from scrolls as a sorcerer (per Jeremy Crawford) (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/935322322159812608).


Strongly disagree on Cleric's list being useless by itself though.

I never meant to say Ritual Caster (Cleric) is useless, but that it's useless for a Divine Soul Sorcerer. It used to be more difficult in the past adding such cleric spells to your sorcerer spell list with so few opportunities (i.e. per level up), but the new Unearthed Arcana allows you to add a new cleric spell every long rest. Once you cycled through all the cleric spells of a specific level, you have completely integrated the cleric spell list into your sorcerer spell list. :smallbiggrin:

[BeefGood]

Great ideas here. Now I want to play a sorcerer!
For the player, some of the responses above convinced me that trying to “sell” the class is not the way to go. There are many classes/subclasses so it should be possible to find one without significant perceived disadvantages.
I suggested Tempest Cleric because it seems to go well thematically with Triton and because Cleric solves the number of spells problem. Clerics prepare oodles of spells. And because of heavy armor, and martial weapons, and lightning! Tempest Cleric is just great.

[Corran]

Exactly, Specific (the Divine Soul feature) beats General (the Ritual Caster feat):

The Divine Soul feature lets you add cleric spells to your sorcerer spells list, which is why you can for example also cast cleric spells from scrolls as a sorcerer (per Jeremy Crawford) (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/935322322159812608).
So our subclass is more specific than the feat itself in regard to how the feat works? Come on...
In hindsight it was my mistake to say it is a case of specific vs general (it's simply a case of what the RAW is for this feat). The sorcerer's spell list is what it is, regardless of how you can modify it through spells granted by your subclass. Because if your logic was correct, then ritual caster [bard] beats everything! Since every spell in the game could potentially be a bard spell. But that's not the way it works. The bard's spell list does not take into account magical secret picks, just like a paladin's spell list does not take into account oath spells, just like a warlock's spell list does not take into account pact spells, etc, always for the purposes of this feat. Just like a divine soul sorcerer can pick spells from the cleric's list, but he cannot pick domain spells that are not I the cleric's list. Just think about it. And if you are not sure just pop a question in the RAW thread. Someone there will probably do a far better job than me at explaining this.

[Misterwhisper]

So our subclass is more specific than the feat itself in regard to how the feat works? Come on...
In hindsight it was my mistake to say it is a case of specific vs general (it's simply a case of what the RAW is for this feat). The sorcerer's spell list is what it is, regardless of how you can modify it through spells granted by your subclass. Because if your logic was correct, then ritual caster [bard] beats everything! Since every spell in the game could potentially be a bard spell. But that's not the way it works. The bard's spell list does not take into account magical secret picks, just like a paladin's spell list does not take into account oath spells, just like a warlock's spell list does not take into account pact spells, etc, always for the purposes of this feat. Just like a divine soul sorcerer can pick spells from the cleric's list, but he cannot pick domain spells that are not I the cleric's list. Just think about it. And if you are not sure just pop a question in the RAW thread. Someone there will probably do a far better job than me at explaining this.

Actually in the tweet he linked he specifically says that only the ones chosen by the sorcerer to be his spells become sorcerer spells, so if you waste a feat picking ritual caster for sorcerer you will gain what maybe one or two at most cleric rituals.

I would pick wizard every time assuming I had the ability because every sorcerer spell is a wizard spell and wizard has many extra, most rituals don’t really care about the stat involved so it won’t matter.

[Corran]

Actually in the tweet he linked he specifically says that only the ones chosen by the sorcerer to be his spells become sorcerer spells, so if you waste a feat picking ritual caster for sorcerer you will gain what maybe one or two at most cleric rituals.
Here is the distinction though. They become sorcerer spells for the purposes of how a divine soul sorcerer can use them. They do not become sorcerer spells for the purposes of the ritual caster feat, and that's because the ritual caster feat looks only at a class's spell list, as per its description.


I would pick wizard every time assuming I had the ability because every sorcerer spell is a wizard spell and wizard has many extra, most rituals don’t really care about the stat involved so it won’t matter.
Agreed. The 13 INT is a bit troublesome, but a halfelf would manage just fine I think.

[Theaitetos]

Here is the distinction though. They become sorcerer spells for the purposes of how a divine soul sorcerer can use them. They do not become sorcerer spells for the purposes of the ritual caster feat, and that's because the ritual caster feat looks only at a class's spell list, as per its description.

No, that's just not true. Jeremy Crawford literally writes the opposite (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/935322322159812608):


For the Divine Soul, only the spells learned from the cleric list become sorcerer spells. The DS can use scrolls that bear those and other sorcerer spells.

Now, let's look at what the Dungeon Master's Guide says about scrolls:


A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class's spell list, you can use an action to read the scroll and cast its spell without having to provide any of the spell's components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible.
If the spell is on your class's spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the scroll with no other effect.

Do you understand now? The Divine Soul can use scrolls with cleric spells, that were turned into sorcerer spells through the Divine Soul class feature because these spells now count as on the sorcerer spell list for this character. "If the spell is on your class's spell list" is quite literally the same precondition as in ritual spells of the Ritual Caster feat.

And with the new UA you can turn one cleric spell into a sorcerer spell per long rest with your Divine Soul sorcerer, adding all those spells to the sorcerer class list, allowing you to cast all of these spells as sorcerer rituals.

p.s.: Another clarification: Once a cleric spell has been learned by the Divine Soul sorcerer, this spell remains a sorcerer spell even after replacing it with another spell (i.e. even if it is no longer one of your Spells Known). This is why it is possible to "cycle through" cleric spells and turn them into sorcerer spells, even if you don't know them at the moment. Back before the new UA, you could only cycle a few spells, since you can only add/replace a spell with every new level.

[Corran]

The Divine Soul can use scrolls with cleric spells, that were turned into sorcerer spells through the Divine Soul class feature because these spells now count as on the sorcerer spell list for this character. "If the spell is on your class's spell list" is quite literally the same precondition as in ritual spells of the Ritual Caster feat.

Here is the mistake. Learning the spell via the divine magic feature makes it count as a sorcerer spell for us, but it does not put it on the sorcerer's spell list. The sorcerer's spell list is what it is. Cure wounds would be in your list of known spells (which is different than the sorcerer's spell list), and you would treat it as a sorcerer spell, but the fact that you need a separate feature (ie divine magic) to take it, is all the fact you need to know that cure wounds is not on the sorcerer's spell list. Just like command is not on the warlock's spell list (even though fiendlocks can get it), etc etc. Your interpretation would be valid if ritual caster went into more detail in its description. But as it is, it simply refers to a class's spell list, as is unmodified by whatever feature (domain spells, pact spells, oath spells, magical secrets, divine magic, etc) can give you access to additional spells. Remember, a character's list of known spells is different to a class's spell list.

I don't disagree with what you are saying about scrolls, but I don't see how that comes into what we are talking about.

Edit: I think we are going in circles. It's ok. We can agree to disagree. But out of curiosity, do you think that a character's list of known spells is one and the same with a class's spell list, or do you think they are different things?

[Theaitetos]

Remember, a character's list of known spells is different to a class's spell list.

I think you are just intentionally lying at this point. Or why else would you twist words around so much?

This is what I quoted from the source books and what Jeremy Crawford talked about:


your class's spell list

and you twist it into:


a character's list of known spells

Twisting my quotes into things I never said is just disingenuous and disgusting.:smallmad:

[Corran]

Whatever you think I did, it was not intentional. But I think we are close to a conclusion, or at the very least we are close to finding where the disagreement is. So, do you agree that a pc's spell list is different to a class's spell list, or do you disagree with that? Or in other words, do you think that a class's spell list is something that can be defined outside of any character build, or do you think it is something that can be defined only within the context of a character build?

[HiveStriker]

I think you are just intentionally lying at this point. Or why else would you twist words around so much?

This is what I quoted from the source books and what Jeremy Crawford talked about:

and you twist it into:

Twisting my quotes into things I never said is just disingenuous and disgusting.:smallmad:
From everything I read on this forum so far (long before I started posting), I can assure you Corran is not the type to post in bad faith (contrarily to some others XD).

He's not "twisting". As far as interpretation goes, both yours and his are equally valid.
It all amounts to the following questioning process.

"Is there a hierarchy between feats's wording and subclasses wording?
- If yes, which prevails (which is 'higher')?
- If no, what is the favored view of devs on how to combine two specific rules?"

I honestly don't think this is something devs anticipated because it's such a specific interaction...
As for how balanced it is, I'd see no problem allowing it myself, whether it's a houserule or not, because while it's clearly a big buff for Divine Soul over other archetypes, it still tailors a specific playstyle and build.
Note though I'd allow it WITHOUT the class variant feature allowing spell retraining.

If I were to also put that "swap spell on long rest into play", then I'd definitely rule that only if Sorcerer actually knows the spell can he cast it as a ritual. Otherwise it becomes far too much of an incentive to pick Divine Soul Sorcerer over any other imo. And anyways, if really a player wants to know rituals *that much*, there are other ways to play it already.

[Theaitetos]

As far as interpretation goes, both yours and his are equally valid.
It all amounts to the following questioning process.

"Is there a hierarchy between feats's wording and subclasses wording?
- If yes, which prevails (which is 'higher')?
- If no, what is the favored view of devs on how to combine two specific rules?"


No, it amounts to the following questioning process. Please say at which step you think there is a mistake:



What is the class of a Divine Soul Sorcerer?
A: sorcerer
What is the class spell list of a Divine Soul Sorcerer?
A: sorcerer spell list
What is the precondition for the use of spell scrolls?
A: The spell must be on the class spell list.
What is the precondition for the use of ritual caster?
A: The spell must be on the class spell list.
The Divine Soul Sorcerer's use of spell scrolls is limited to which class spell list?
A: sorcerer spell list
The Divine Soul Sorcerer's use of ritual caster (sorcerer) is limited to which class spell list?
A: sorcerer spell list
Does Jeremy Crawford say that Divine Soul Sorcerers are able to use spell scrolls with cleric spells they obtained through their class feature?
A: Yes.


I think this proves sufficiently that DS sorcerers are also able to use ritual caster on cleric spells they obtained with their class feature. Ritual Caster and spell scrolls have the exact same preconditions for usage: "The spell must be on the respective class spell list".

By what twisted logic can one conclude that cleric spells are on the sorcerer spell list for the purpose of spell scrolls but not for the purpose of ritual caster?

[Monster Manuel]

I think the key to this is in the spellcasting description of the divine soul. It says, at the end of the paragraph, "it becomes a sorcerer spell for you". It's the "for you" that's key. For that particular divine soul sorcerer who, in this particular instance has learned Feign Death, then yes, Feign Death is on the sorcerer spell list for them, and if they have ritual casting for Sorcerer spells, they could cast it as a ritual. I do not think there is a rules distinction between "this is a sorcerer spell" for you and "this spell is on the sorcerer spell list" for you.

You could take Ceremony as one of the rituals in your book at first level, if and only if you had already taken it as one of your spells known as a divine soul. Now you can cast it as a ritual, which you couldn't before, because sorcerer doesn't have ritual casting natively.

If you go up a level and swap out Ceremony for Inflict Wounds, I think RAW you lose access to Ceremony, even though it is in your book. It is no longer a sorcerer spell for you, so it no longer qualifies. If you ever swapped it back at a later level, you'd get access to the ritual again...you didn't lose it entirely, you just lost access to the criteria that allowed you to cast it.

None of this is an issue if you took rit caster cleric, instead of sorcerer. In that case, you can cast it as a ritual, full stop, regardless of whatever favored soul wackiness you're doing with your spell list otherwise.

Adding new spells to the RC spellbook is tricky, too. The feat says that you have to have the spell in written form in order to copy it to your ritual book. Just knowing it does not appear to be enough. If you had RC sorcerer and found a scroll of Feign Death, you could ONLY add it to your ritual book if you were a divine soul sorcerer, who already knows Feign Death. Otherwise, it is not a sorcerer spell for you, and not eligible to be used with the feat.

Conversely, if you used the UA variant to switch in Feign Death for the day, you could not add it to your ritual book unless you also had a written copy to use.

You have to use up your extremely limited number of spells known, for the benefit of being able to ritual cast some of them, as long as they remain on your list.

I think using ritual caster sorc with the divine soul's expanded spell list to cherry pick some cleric rituals is way too much of an edge case to make it useful. Almost 100% of the time, I think just taking RC cleric would be better.

[TheUser]

-snip-

This entire breakdown is so awful it hurts.

Quicken is good if you have 6+ sorcery points and your cantrips can start doing meaningful damage.
This means it's best taken at level 10+
Early on it's a real dump on resources and provides relatively little reward.

NEVER USE EXTENDED SPELL
omg. Like...what even is this recommendation. Ok If you have Spirit Guardians going for 20 minutes without being interrupted...I honestly don't know what your enemies are doing. Do you just have a big metal dome that you put around you whilst you try and close to within 15ft of enemies?
Extending Aid, while useful in the niche circumstance of adventuring for 16 hours straight, is not worth giving up some of the best metamagics in the game for.

I'm going to say this once.
If you, as a DM, don't expressly make vocal components of spells loud and noticeable (which they should be) then nobody has a good reason to play sorcerer. Subtle Spell is the king **** of metamagic but can be seen as "meh" because DM's are soft on their players and let other casters whisper cast or hide their casting with jenky arbitrary skill checks.

Read my guide to figure out what metamagics are worthwhile and which ones you can take a pass on.

[Laserlight]

I could use some specific examples/stories of cool sorcerer abilities, to show the player what he’s getting in exchange for the limitations of the spells known.

We're fairly beat up and looking for a place to rest. Open the next door and oopsie, this is some sort of temple with two big elementals and a crowd of cultists who turn and look at us. Fortunately it was a fairly large room so they're not right in our face, but in a couple rounds we're going to have serious problems. Except....
Round 1: Twinned Banish. No more elementals. The DM's expression said quite plainly "I Was Not Expecting That."
Round 2: Fireball. No more cultists, except the cult leader who is looking pretty charred. The rest of the party deals with him without breaking a sweat, while I stay back and Concentrate on my Banish.

[HiveStriker]

This entire breakdown is so awful it hurts.

Quicken is good if you have 6+ sorcery points and your cantrips can start doing meaningful damage.
This means it's best taken at level 10+
Early on it's a real dump on resources and provides relatively little reward.

NEVER USE EXTENDED SPELL
omg. Like...what even is this recommendation. Ok If you have Spirit Guardians going for 20 minutes without being interrupted...I honestly don't know what your enemies are doing. Do you just have a big metal dome that you put around you whilst you try and close to within 15ft of enemies?
Extending Aid, while useful in the niche circumstance of adventuring for 16 hours straight, is not worth giving up some of the best metamagics in the game for.

I'm going to say this once.
If you, as a DM, don't expressly make vocal components of spells loud and noticeable (which they should be) then nobody has a good reason to play sorcerer. Subtle Spell is the king **** of metamagic but can be seen as "meh" because DM's are soft on their players and let other casters whisper cast or hide their casting with jenky arbitrary skill checks.

Read my guide to figure out what metamagics are worthwhile and which ones you can take a pass on.
Translating as...
"You know nothing, I'm the only one who knows. Read and awe me".

No thanks. That kind of mentality is steering me off immediately (gg on strawmaning my post too, I'm not even sure you actually tried to read it entirely).
Too bad, maybe if I had seen your guide before, I would have read it with interest. Now I can only have the worst suspicions on it.

[TheUser]

Translating as...
"You know nothing, I'm the only one who knows. Read and awe me".

No thanks. That kind of mentality is steering me off immediately (gg on strawmaning my post too, I'm not even sure you actually tried to read it entirely).
Too bad, maybe if I had seen your guide before, I would have read it with interest. Now I can only have the worst suspicions on it.

I take issue with people who give bad advice thinking it's good.

Extended Spell is the only metamagic I would consider F-tier.

1) you have to decide to extend the spell before you cast it. Meaning you might actually invest in a sorcery point in doubling the duration of a spell you would not even need double duration out of.

2) it doesn't function on spells that last under 1 minute or over 24 hours. One of these is the ideal circumstances where I would want to double the length of a spell. Something like a Divine Soul Sorcerer using Command that lasts 1 round now lasting 2. Given that most encounters barely make it past 4-5 rounds, doubling the length of a 1 minute spell does very little.

3) most of the spells that you want to extend are concentration, meaning you are again, gambling that you don't lose concentration on that spell during the entire fight; given that it cannot be combined with subtle spell I have no way hiding the fact that I am the source of that spell.

I'm not saying you as a person know nothing; I am saying that this particular advice is bad.

Quickened is a good metamagic, but it's nothing to scoff at levels 3-10 as for the reasons I outlined already.

[Theaitetos]

If you go up a level and swap out Ceremony for Inflict Wounds, I think RAW you lose access to Ceremony, even though it is in your book. It is no longer a sorcerer spell for you, so it no longer qualifies.

Thanks for understanding the argument!

However, there is no RAW text passage anywhere saying it stops being a sorcerer spell for you. You are making things up that aren't there.


Your link to the divine allows you to learn spells from the cleric class. When your Spellcasting feature lets you learn or replace a sorcerer cantrip or a sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose the new spell from the cleric spell list or the sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes a sorcerer spell for you.

In addition, choose an affinity for the source of your divine power: good, evil, law, chaos, or neutrality. You learn an additional spell based on that affinity, as shown below. It is a sorcerer spell for you, but it doesn’t count against your number of sorcerer spells known. If you later replace this spell, you must replace it with a spell from the cleric spell list.


You can't even make a RAI argument because the devs obviously thought about replacing these spells and the only condition is for the affinity spell to be replaced with a cleric spell. Nowhere does it say "the spell stops being a sorcerer spell for you."

[HiveStriker]

I take issue with people who give bad advice thinking it's good.

Extended Spell is the only metamagic I would consider F-tier.

1) you have to decide to extend the spell before you cast it. Meaning you might actually invest in a sorcery point in doubling the duration of a spell you would not even need double duration out of.

2) it doesn't function on spells that last under 1 minute or over 24 hours. One of these is the ideal circumstances where I would want to double the length of a spell. Something like a Divine Soul Sorcerer using Command that lasts 1 round now lasting 2. Given that most encounters barely make it past 4-5 rounds, doubling the length of a 1 minute spell does very little.

3) most of the spells that you want to extend are concentration, meaning you are again, gambling that you don't lose concentration on that spell during the entire fight; given that it cannot be combined with subtle spell I have no way hiding the fact that I am the source of that spell.

I'm not saying you as a person know nothing; I am saying that this particular advice is bad.

Quickened is a good metamagic, but it's nothing to scoff at levels 3-10 as for the reasons I outlined already.
LOL.
First, you basically said in previous post all I said was crap, when I actually said most of the same things as you regarding Subtle and Quicken (yeah, ME am constructive enough to actually read what people say and reflect on them before writing -so I went and read your guide). You even assumed I was advising to use Quicken mainly on cantrips when I did actually not precisely because I feel it's not necessarily the best resource consumption until you get level 8 or so at least. So GG for that.

By the way, I love how you say Quicken is far too expensive when you say on flip side than Twinning Polymorph at level 7 is fine. Contrarily to you though, I won't judge without context. I see as many situations where this (= burning ~30% of all daily resources including best spell slot) could be worth as many where this would be a waste.

Second, you clearly never even tried to properly use Extend with any Sorcerer in general, and Divine Soul even less, as you also clearly skipped the part of my post when I gave definite, precise examples. You just focused on the most situational one (Spirit Guardians) instead because "you just wanted to be right".

It's too late to try and make yourself look like constructive (you revealed yourself again with the bolded sentence anyways: "if I don't think it's good, then IT IS bad" impressive open-mindness here). :) (and I will be honest I myself will stop trying to be with you on that topic, it's not worth the time).



Thanks for understanding the argument!

However, there is no RAW text passage anywhere saying it stops being a sorcerer spell for you. You are making things up that aren't there.



You can't even make a RAI argument because the devs obviously thought about replacing these spells and the only condition is for the affinity spell to be replaced with a cleric spell. Nowhere does it say "the spell stops being a sorcerer spell for you."
As much as I love WoTC, and as thoughtful I usually see their work and wording, I'm not convinced they actually thought of that very specific interaction and in that particular meaning.

I'm not a really a Twitter user. Would anyone around here be kind enough to convey that specific point to Crawford to see what the view of one core designer would be? At least we'd have a compass for RAI. ^^

[TheUser]

By the way, I love how you say Quicken is far too expensive when you say on flip side than Twinning Polymorph at level 7 is fine. Contrarily to you though, I won't judge without context. I see as many situations where this could be worth as many where this would be a waste.

Let's unpack this. What do we get with the 4 sorc points?
Another Giant Ape and all 157 free HP that goes with it.
Can you, in 2 actions (the ones freed up by bonus action spells) do 157 damage or healing?

What about the difference in damage that those apes put out?

doing 6d10 + 12 damage vs the standard 4d6+8 of a martial using two auto attacks with a great sword.

Now spread that out over the number of rounds that those two apes are active.

Those two actions you free up from quicken can literally never equal this much output from twinned.



Second, you clearly never even tried to properly use Extend with any Sorcerer in general, and Divine Soul even less, as you also clearly skipped the part of my post when I gave definite, precise examples. You just focused on the most situational one (Spirit Guardians) instead because "you just wanted to be right".

It's too late to try and make yourself look like constructive (you revealed yourself again with the bolded sentence anyways: "if I don't think it's good, then IT IS necessarily bad" impressive open-mindness here). :) (and I will be honest I myself will stop trying to be with you on that topic, it's not worth the time).


Actually I gave you a nod about Aid and how it's not terrible with extended... but when compared to something like the number of options you create with subtle it's really bad, the opportunity cost of taking extended spell vs other metamagics is huge, especially considering you can refresh loads of spells with subtle and nobody's the wiser. A player doesn't get every metamagic and you only have so many sorcery points to spend, which means using those choices/resources on metamagics that aren't stellar is a bad choice. Opportunity cost.

Ask yourself how many times you've said "man I really wish I had more spell slots left over instead of having to renew my spell durations all the time...."
I know what my answer is.

[Corran]

By what twisted logic can one conclude that cleric spells are on the sorcerer spell list for the purpose of spell scrolls but not for the purpose of ritual caster?
Try not to take it personally. If I disagree with you it is not because I want to bait you into fighting or because I am lying, it's just because I have a different opinion. The basis of my argument really comes down to this. A feat is defined strictly by its description, so its benefits are unmodified by the character build that takes the feat. And thinking a bit more about it, it certainly doesn't seem to be RAI (since magic initiate is doing the exact opposite of what I was thinking, if I am not mistaken).