3.5 Perfect Spy??

[Nuff Said]

I've been theroy crafting what I think would be the perfect character to play if looking at a perfect spy like character.. I have only made it to level 5 as I dont quite know what it's missing but I feel something is..

Race: Tibbit
Class: Beguiler
Stats: STR10(-2) DEX15(+2) CON10 INT16 WIS14 CHA12
Bonus Feats: Master Linguist (lvl1) Surrogate Spellcasting (lvl3)

As the Beguiler doesn't seem to have many actually damage in combat applications I decided STR as the true dump stat.. The skill focus will be things your stereotypical spy would have, move silent, hide, disguise, search, spot, listen, bluff ect....

In your transformed cat form you get a +2 DEX and -8 STR.. While that str sucks you get a few nice race bonuses to skills and when transformed whatever you wear becomes a part of you (I like to think it turns into fur or something).. You're also a housecat so you cant pick things up (due to str) and you get a nice +8 hide that's super nice so you dont have to max it..

With Surrogate Spellcasting feat you can cast magic in cat form making it really useful, you get invisibility at 4th level so you can do everything as a cat in combat with that as a scapegoat (buff and debuff, remember you have no HP) and outside of combat you would know so many languages it's easy to get information and translate things.. I can see lots of flavor playing this..

OH OH OH!! You also know feline as a Language.. like cat.. you can like purr and meow even growl and other little asshats that knock your drink off the nightstand in the middle of the night will know what you're saying.. I feel that could be useful in large cities

This is where I've gotten and it's not that I'm stuck on continuing the build persay but I feel like something isnt quite working (I wanted to play this class in my current campaign and my DM kept giving me the nudge that its awful.. The party is currently lvl5).. I cant quite see what's wrong other than being a goblin fart from death at full HP..

Any thoughts on how I can complete this class without playing something like a burning Human Rogue?? I have been trying to make my ranger basically what this is but I'm 100 levels off from how strong this seems outside of combat

[gorfnab]

Even though it was an April Fools post by WOTC back in like 2003, this page is full of useful stuff for Tibbit characters (Handle Humanoid skill, Collar of Perpetual Attendance magic item, and more): Fabulous Cats! (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c).

[Maat Mons]

I'd be tempted to go with Sparrow Hengeyokai. Dragon magazine updated them to be +0 LA.

I'd also be tempted to go Psion, because they don't need to take a feat to manifest in animal form. And they don't need to make noises or motions when manifesting either, so there's no way to connect the dots between you and your powers.



If you're planning to spend most of your time in cat form, a lot of the Beguiler's skill list will mostly go to waste. Can't really use Bluff, Diplomacy, or Gather Information when you can't talk. And you can't really use Disable Device or Open Lock without hands. You can change back and forth, but if you want to play as a cat, you probably want to play as a cat, so I imagine you'd spend little time in humanoid form.

If you go the Sparrow Hengeyokai route, you can fly, so that removes the need for Balance, Climb, and Jump.

If you go the Psion route, you can gain Telepathy as an ACF, allowing you to communicate with party members without giving away the game. Psion doesn't get all the Rogue skills, not by a long shot. But most of those skills are things you either can't use in sparrow form, or won't want to use in sparrow form.



If you play a Halfling Druid, there's a racial substitution level that lets you assume the form of Tiny animals right from level 5. And it gives you an extra use of Wild Shape too. So with a duration of 5 hours per Druid level, and 2 uses per day, you're already looking at 10 hours per day at 5th level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The ultimate spy isn't a caster at all. It's all well and good to be able to fool mundane senses and sensibilities but the first time you step in range of a brazier of magic aura revealing (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook) and light up like the sun, the jig is up.

Changeling rogue (races of eberron) into spymaster (complete adventurer) and just doing the bloody legwork for your information is the way to go, if you ask me. You reach a point by level 12 where you may as well -be- dfifferent people when you assume one of your cover identities and you have defenses against all the typical magical securities as well as a certain social adeptness. It all meshes together to -really- fill the role.

[Maat Mons]

Wouldn't anti-divination effects foil the brazer?

And if not, does the Changeling Rogue / Spymaster walk around without magic items so the brazer won't reveal those?

[Sian]

The ability for 3rd level spymaster is at will nystuls magic aura, which hides any or all magical items

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wouldn't anti-divination effects foil the brazer?

For your person, yes. Covering all your gear in such effects is pretty draining on your slots though.


And if not, does the Changeling Rogue / Spymaster walk around without magic items so the brazer won't reveal those?

This:


The ability for 3rd level spymaster is at will nystuls magic aura, which hides any or all magical items

[Maat Mons]

I'm pretty sure I remember a rule about spells that protect you also protecting your gear, which would mean that you'd only need to ward yourself.

Also, Nystul's Magic Aura can prevent the gear from registering as magical, sure. But each casting of Nystul's Mystic aura will itself register as an active 1st-level illusion. You're still going to have to explain why every piece of gear you're carrying has an ongoing spell on it.

[Sian]

Also, Nystul's Magic Aura can prevent the gear from registering as magical, sure. But each casting of Nystul's Mystic aura will itself register as an active 1st-level illusion. You're still going to have to explain why every piece of gear you're carrying has an ongoing spell on it.

Specific trumps general. Nystul explicitly says that you can decide if items it is cast on is detected as completely non-magical, or if it detects as having magical abilities it doesn’t

[TheCount]

Occult slayer at level 4 has always on nondetection aura which shields anyitem they carry, at lvl 5 people can't read Thier minds

[ShurikVch]

Specific trumps general. Nystul explicitly says that you can decide if items it is cast on is detected as completely non-magical, or if it detects as having magical abilities it doesn’tExcept nothing in the NMA says explicitly it's able to suppress its own aura of Faint Illusion
It may look like a glaring weakness, but come on - there are already six threads of various dysfunctions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5), what's one little oversight next to it?


Anyway, the best spy is, usually, somebody who use skills rather than magic - because skills still working in the Dead Magic, can't be foiled by True Seeing or Mind Blank, etc

But the best of "spy" classes - presuming Dragon content is available - is Anarchomancer from #315: Ritual of the Dark Infiltrator: "Nothing short of a wish or miracle reveals the new character's former life as an anarchomancer."

[Sian]

Except nothing in the NMA says explicitly it's able to suppress its own aura of Faint Illusion

General : Spells gives off Auras inclined towards their school

NMA: "You alter an item's aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical" "...or make a +2 vorpal sword register as if it were a nonmagical sword"

Given that it would register as nonmagical if it had a faint illusion aura, the implication is that it doesn't have a faint illusion aura.

There are two possible RAW ... either there's no Aura, or it flat out do at what it says it does

[ShurikVch]

General : Spells gives off Auras inclined towards their school

NMA: "You alter an item's aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical" "...or make a +2 vorpal sword register as if it were a nonmagical sword"

Given that it would register as nonmagical if it had a faint illusion aura, the implication is that it doesn't have a faint illusion aura.

There are two possible RAW ... either there's no Aura, or it flat out do at what it says it doesThat aura is not from item, but from spell

[bean illus]

That aura is not from item, but from spell

Hogwash.

While I'm here ... would facto SLAs show a magic aura?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hogwash.

While I'm here ... would facto SLAs show a magic aura?

Of course. Any active ones anyway. Supernaturals from whatever source too. The latent ability to perform SLAs only registers to arcane eye with concentration and laten SUs don't register at all until they become active.

[Nuff Said]

I like the suggestions made that I didnt consider, a changeling would be cool to play, and going rogue at the start would be nice to keep up with the skill monkey persona.. However I feel like the rogue is a little too standard.. I didnt know about the Spy Master PrC, after checking that out I think that's a perfect option to go into for sure!!

The Hengeyokai seems like a really interesting race for this kind of build as well.. It would fit into some of the more tactical ways of getting information than the bloody groundwork, but both options get about the same results one way or another so that's doable..

I do feel like the Master Linguist feat is a must have for this kind of build, if you can take it level 1 assuming you start with 4 Languages (common, racial and 2 from INT modifier) by level 5 you would have 8 Languages under your belt and could know nearly everything near lvl20..

What are your thoughts around that and other useful feats for being sneaky and getting things done, the Darkstaller feat was something I considered especially for the later levels so you can slip past close to everything??

[Maat Mons]

If you like the Minor Change Shape ability of the Changling race, but you don't want to give up on Tibbit/Hengeyokai, there is a way to have both. With a one-level dip into Psion (Egoist) and an ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a), you can nab the same ability Changlings get, but on any race.

[Jack_Simth]

For your person, yes. Covering all your gear in such effects is pretty draining on your slots though.Nystuls Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) is Days/level. At, say, 6th, you can use two 1st level spell slots (or one 2nd, with Extend) to cover a dozen magic items by casting it in rotation - and at 6th, you probably won't have that many. It's a problem if you get hit with a Dispel (partial solution: Keep a wand handy - partial, because wand save DCs are only 11, so they won't survive close examination), but part of being a spy is getting folks to not attack you in various ways.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I like the suggestions made that I didnt consider, a changeling would be cool to play, and going rogue at the start would be nice to keep up with the skill monkey persona.. However I feel like the rogue is a little too standard.. I didnt know about the Spy Master PrC, after checking that out I think that's a perfect option to go into for sure!!

Not rogue, changeling rogue. There's a racial substitution for the class in Races of Eberron. It gets 2 extra skill points per level and drops trapfinding for a dramatic improvement to his use of social skills along with a couple other goodies that are less important. Loss of trapfinding stings just a little but you can always dip one of the other classes that gets it.



What are your thoughts around that and other useful feats for being sneaky and getting things done, the Darkstaller feat was something I considered especially for the later levels so you can slip past close to everything??

Darkstalker is a -lot- less important for a spy since most of what you'll be hiding from is going to be humanoid, presumably. Definitely a good one if you've got room for it and a solid pick for more tradtitional adventuring. There are a couple social interaction oriented feats in PHB2 that might be worth a look and complete scoundrel's skill tricks have a couple gems too.