Roy, the afterlife, and Raise Dead. [Spoilers]

[RelentlessImp]

I'm going to spoiler my thoughts here, as they could be spoilers to those who haven't read 496 yet.


Roy; Lawful Good Afterlife, where he gets to speak to his father and mother directly. As if that wasn't good enough for closure... the little brother who died, that he likely blamed himself for for a good long time, is right there for him.

Is Roy even going to want to go back when Durkon casts raise dead? Honestly, if it were me, I'd leave it up to the rest of the PCs to do the dirty job; I'd stay there with my little brother, playing blocks, until the Snarl came and undid creation.

I mean, honestly; Roy has the perfect afterlife here, except for one small problem; Xykon is still out there, and the Snarl grows ever closer to breaking free. If Roy hadn't just proved he was actually Lawful Good, and committed to destroying the threat Xykon and the Snarl pose, I'd say it was no contest; he'd be staying there.

However, it's going to likely be a hard decision for Roy to make. Go back to the Material Plane and say goodbye to his mother and little brother he hasn't seen in 18 years, or go back and do his duty.

LG typically does not leave open a choice in this kind of situation, if playing to the letter of the alignment; duty before personal issues. However, we've seen that Roy is not LG to the strict definition.

So, after typing all of this, I'm not really sure where I was going with this. I think it was an exercise in thought as to how Roy is going to deal with leaving the brother he hasn't seen in 18 years and most likely would like to stay there and play blocks forever.

I think he'll go, but perhaps look forward to death - he hasn't really said much on the subject of his true death (old age), so I'm not sure of his views on that, but most mortals tend to think they'll live forever.

This is a life-changing moment for Roy; who knew he'd have to die to reach this milestone? :P

[Skyserpent]

I bet he'll forget most of Heaven when he goes back to the land of meat and squishy.

[The Viking]

But if he doesn't go back to stop the Snarl, he'll only have until the Snarl undoes creation to spend in Paradise.

If he chooses to stop the Snarl, he'll have the rest of eternity (when he dies) to spend in Paradise.

It's not like they're going anywhere (except maybe the top of the mountain).

[Jasdoif]

I have a hard time believing that Roy would be willing to shove the burden of fulfilling the oath onto Julia. Eugene might, and in fact that was his plan, but I don't see Roy being self-centered enough to impose such a thing onto his own sister.

If he felt responsible for his brother's death, how the heck could he justify knowingly and intentionally forcing his sister to face Xykon?

[Kreistor]

There's one good reason to go back and deal with the Gates. If the Gates are dealt with and then Roy dies, he can exist in Celestia for as long as the Snarl is imprisoned. If he abandons the Gates and the Snarl is used against Celestia, then Roy's time with his brother is limited.

Roy's conviction to see his responsibilities through very likely stem from his father's abandonment of those responsibilities which wound up with Roy's brother's death. No matter how smarrt Eugene was, Roy, a child, foresaw injury to his brother where an adult did not. Roy didn't abandon his own responsibility, he was overruled, but it was clear that when it came to responsibility, few had Roy's capacity to see it when it existed.

Furthermore, abandoning responsibility lays the Oath on his spoiled sister, who might not see the project through. She did not exist to see Eugene's mistake with her brother, and so has absorbed too much of Eugene. Eugene, too, is spoiled in a way, and Eugene's stupidity has been transfered to Julia. If Roy wants Julia to join the family in Celestia, Roy has to ensure Julia is not burdened with the Blood Oath, since she is unlikely to take on teh responsibility, and will wind up with Eugene.

Delaying his permanent stay in Celestia by a few years won't have a long term impact, since Roy is certain he'll be there when death does finally take him. Staying with his brother is inevitable, and will be just as eternal if it starts 40 years down the road.

[RelentlessImp]

Okay, now that spoiler tag has been imprinted onto the title...

It's a very good point that Roy, having shown a decent Int and Wisdom score, may realize that he could spend eternity with his little brother no matter when his permanent stay starts.. However, there's one point that hasn't been brought up;

Guilt.

Roy may still feel guilty that he didn't do anything to stop Eugene, if it was indeed Eugene who caused the little one's death. That could cloud his judgment. Another point; Love. It may cloud his judgment as well, whether to answer the call of raise dead when cast by Durkon.

But I do agree that he'll wise up in the end and go back willingly. It's just part of Roy's lawful-goodness. Finish the Blood Oath, defeat the god-killing, creation-undoing monster, save the world. Yeah. I was thinking more of the emotional drama that may result, rather than the end, I suppose.

[Porthos]

If Roy decides to stay in heaven, then the speeches he gave when battling Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) and when he dressed down his father (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html) mean absolutely nothing.

Maybe if the entire existence, of well, everything, wasn't at stake then maybe Roy would stick around in the Celestial Realms. But Xykon and Redcloak are a threat to the very fabric of the Universe.

This isn't about the blood oath anymore. This isn't about family honor and swords. No, this is about Saving The World. And Roy will want to make sure he can do his bit to help. Oh he will be terribly conflicted. And he may even hem and haw about it. But refuse to go?

Not the Roy Greenhilt I know. :smallsmile:

Besides, his friends need him. And Roy isn't the type of person to run out on his friends. Not anymore at least. :smallwink:

[tenguro]

is everybody forgetting that xykon said he doesnt want to destroy the world? he just wants to rule it. I see where people are bringing the fact up that the snarl is escaping slowly cause the gates are being destroyed slowly, but there is still a chance that the rest of the gates arent destroyed. Also I think Roy will want to be raised still, you can't forget Celia.

[RelentlessImp]

If Roy decides to stay in heaven, then the speeches he gave when battling Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html) and when he dressed down his father (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0293.html) mean absolutely nothing.

Maybe if the entire existence, of well, everything, wasn't at stake then maybe Roy would stick around in the Celestial Realms. But Xykon and Redcloak are a threat to the very fabric of the Universe.

This isn't about the blood oath anymore. This isn't about family honor and swords. No, this is about Saving The World. And Roy will want to make sure he can do his bit to help. Oh he will be terribly conflicted. And he may even hem and haw about it. But refuse to go?

Not the Roy Greenhilt I know. :smallsmile:

Besides, his friends need him. And Roy isn't the type of person to run out on his friends. Not anymore at least. :smallwink:

(emphasis added)

Kind of the point I wanted to make before; he'll be insanely conflicted about it, but I do agree that in the end he'll decide to go back. Roy has received the most character development so far (DM favoritism? He's not a Mary Sue, at least), and it's really starting to warp him from his humble beginnings as a 2-D Fighter/Party Leader/Tactician role that every party has at least one of, into a far more realistic 3-D (4-D? Can Time be applied to a fictional character?) being.

I guess I'm focusing more on the development and speculating about that, and his reaction to receiving a raise dead now that he knows his brother is here, rather than whether or not he'll go back.

[Rogue 7]

Meh. If I was him, my mindset would be "It's always there waiting for me." I'd jump at the chance to go back.

[Tempest Fennac]

Being as Julia is True Neutral, wouldn't not fulfilling the BOoV be more likely to get her into her afterlife considering how she would be acting in a TN fashion by not risking her life attempting to destroy Xykon?

[teratorn]

There's one good reason to go back and deal with the Gates. If the Gates are dealt with and then Roy dies, he can exist in Celestia for as long as the Snarl is imprisoned. If he abandons the Gates and the Snarl is used against Celestia, then Roy's time with his brother is limited.

The god's may undo the mortal world, not Celestia. It's not clear what a gate will do if taken to Celestia. But the question at this point is if Roy is indeed needed to stop Xykon. I say he is.

[hamishspence]

Will Roy have a Buffy moment?
(with regard to sixth season where Buffy is ressurrected, brought back from heaven, and spends most of season seriously depressed. She begins to pull herself together, and recognized that she was needed, but it was still VERY painful for her, and effects were still visible in seventh and last season)

For Roy to answer the call will be a Good act in itself. He may feel it's his duty, he may feel obligated, but it's still a very, very Good act to voluntarily give up eternal happiness for returning to the world of toil and sorrow (and joy as well) to Do What's Needed.

[factotum]

I would go with those who say that Roy's Lawful nature would prevent him refusing the call--he knows he still has to deal with Xykon, after all. And it's not like Celestia is going anywhere, is it? It'll be there waiting for him the next time he dies, even if that's sixty years into the future.

[docstrange]

Hm. If Roy refuses to be Raised- that is, willfully choosing his own comfort and enlightenment over the safety of others - could he get kicked out of Celestia? Wouldn't be the first time someone Fell from heaven. (i.e., Lucifer)

After all, that's why Eugene is stuck on Cloud One.

But it is not clear if Roy's assignment can be undone- the Deva seemed to imply that it's permanent. Philosophically though, it seems that as long as Roy's soul can make choices (and is seems that he is still making choices) it is vulnerable to sin against the LG way, and sin can change his alignment status.

[Lamech]

Also I think Roy will want to be raised still, you can't forget Celia.
I'm pretty sure Celia isn't on the prime so she can probably reach Roy easier in heaven.

And it's not like Celestia is going anywhere, is it? It'll be there waiting for him the next time he dies, even if that's sixty years into the future.
Unfortunetly if he goes back he could very well lose his heaven. First off he's fighting Xykon a 20th level caster and Redcloak a 15th+ level one. Both of them could trap him. Forever. No coming back to heaven. Alone for all eternity. Or they could corrupt his soul; make him evil with magic, turn him against his friends then when Roy dies he goes to hell. Or Roy could fail, for all he knows this would mean Xykon gets the snarl. If Roy dies to that his soul is eaten. Roys really dead then.