Grapple Rules sanity check

[Quertus]

So, the other day, I had a rather unusual grapple situation. All told, there were 16 individuals (about half the combatants) involved in, or attacking/shooting into, this one particular grapple. But the part that made me think was, I had a mounted chain tripper and 2 Worgs trying to trip a grappled (and, later, pinned) combatant.

Is that even possible? If so, do the "attacker prone" / "defender prone" modifiers affect grapple rolls? Do prone, pinned, higher ground, etc, all stack? How would you rule in this scenario?

But, wait, it gets better.

Before deciding that the rules were sketchy, the grapple was going to occur in (at the edge of) the AoE of an Entangle spell. The rules sketchiness came in several forms there.

First, don't you have to move into someone's square to grapple? But Entangle prevents movement… to people trying to enter it, too?

Second, people were willing to use AoE effects to try to kill the plants that were doing the Entangling… except… it was questionable just what plants those would be in that area. Especially given that some of the combatants could fly, and the v3.0 Entangle, at least, didn't limit the AoE of Entangle to ground level. Also, related to that first point, fliers that end their turn without having moved generally fall… into an Entangle… that won't let you move.

And now, the party is looking to make grappling a standard part of their toolkit, and looking to see just what all they can combine into their own grapples - especially things that offer no save, affect an AoE, and/or are things that they'd be doing anyway. Fortunately, it's an opposed roll, so they cannot just 5e cheese it, and win with an army of cannon fodder through bounded accuracy, so that's something, at least.

So, other than forcing sanity checks by bringing up the 3e grappling rules, why do I bring this up? What's my goal? Well, it's to see what y'all would have done, and also to ask if there are any other odd grappling interactions I should watch for. Because, up until now, my experience with grappling has been fairly vanilla, with a little improved grab, and a little swallow whole, and nothing like last session. If the party is actively looking for things that combo with grappling, I'd like to have some idea what rules & interactions I'll need to learn.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, the other day, I had a rather unusual grapple situation. All told, there were 16 individuals (about half the combatants) involved in, or attacking/shooting into, this one particular grapple. But the part that made me think was, I had a mounted chain tripper and 2 Worgs trying to trip a grappled (and, later, pinned) combatant.

Couple things. First and foremost, size and space restrictions come into play. You can't get 16 medium creatures into a single 5ft square. IIRC, the limit is something like 4 or 5 such creatures in one space. I'd probably rule that more creatures than that trying to get into the same grapple simply fail unless there're size differences at play.


Is that even possible? If so, do the "attacker prone" / "defender prone" modifiers affect grapple rolls? Do prone, pinned, higher ground, etc, all stack? How would you rule in this scenario?

I don't see why you couldn't have grapplers being tripped and going prone. The ac bonuses and penalties would function as normal in that case but they wouldn't apply to the grapple checks. It's -really- hard to avoid getting punched when a grapple goes to ground, no matter whether you're in the dominant position or not. I'd rule trip works as normal but if you succeed in tripping the opponent you go prone too unless you're using improved grab or the like to make them count as grappled while you don't. Even then you've got to at least kneel over him and take +2 to ranged ac and -2 to melee.

Since you have to occupy the same space as your foe, higher ground should never come up.


But, wait, it gets better.

Before deciding that the rules were sketchy, the grapple was going to occur in (at the edge of) the AoE of an Entangle spell. The rules sketchiness came in several forms there.

This is starting to sound like off-brand anime.


First, don't you have to move into someone's square to grapple? But Entangle prevents movement… to people trying to enter it, too?

You can break free with a dc 20 str check so I'd probably fold that into the action of pulling yourself into your foe's space. It's unecessary if you've made your reflex check to avoid being grabbed for the current round.


Second, people were willing to use AoE effects to try to kill the plants that were doing the Entangling… except… it was questionable just what plants those would be in that area. Especially given that some of the combatants could fly, and the v3.0 Entangle, at least, didn't limit the AoE of Entangle to ground level. Also, related to that first point, fliers that end their turn without having moved generally fall… into an Entangle… that won't let you move.

I'd go with calling them either woody plants (hardness 5) or not (hardness 2) and unless this all took place in a jungle or the like nothing more than an inch or two in diameter. A fireball would likely destroy all of it, regardless. I also wouldn't count the fall of a stalled flying creature as movement the entangle restricts unless they're already below the tree canopy. In the case they are beneath the trees then the spell simply holds them in place in the air and a str check to break free results in a fall.

The 3.5 version of the spell makes no mention of being restricted to ground level either, btw.


And now, the party is looking to make grappling a standard part of their toolkit, and looking to see just what all they can combine into their own grapples - especially things that offer no save, affect an AoE, and/or are things that they'd be doing anyway. Fortunately, it's an opposed roll, so they cannot just 5e cheese it, and win with an army of cannon fodder through bounded accuracy, so that's something, at least.

Most of those things won't interact meaningfully with grappling and they'll have to be taken case by case. Grappling can be -very- difficult if you don't spec for it in the mid-to-high levels so this might sort itself out after a while if you're really worried about it.


So, other than forcing sanity checks by bringing up the 3e grappling rules, why do I bring this up? What's my goal? Well, it's to see what y'all would have done, and also to ask if there are any other odd grappling interactions I should watch for. Because, up until now, my experience with grappling has been fairly vanilla, with a little improved grab, and a little swallow whole, and nothing like last session. If the party is actively looking for things that combo with grappling, I'd like to have some idea what rules & interactions I'll need to learn.

Nothing leaps to mind but I'd be happy to help if something does. I'm one of those weirdos that likes grappling.

I will elaborate on the first point a bit though. I said too many grapplers trying to occupy the same space simply fails unless size weirdness, so let's discuss the size weirdness.

I'd probably go with something like 2 small for each medium, 2 medium for each large, etc and no more than 5 to a grapple a set by the largest creature involved. For example, 8 halflings could jump a human all at once or 16 of them could jump on an ogre. Conversely, there's not enough space to grab on one of the halflings for more than 2 humans and one grabbed by an ogre doesn't need to worry about anyone else getting in on him. He does have that ogre to deal with though :smallbiggrin:

[Fizban]

Couple things. First and foremost, size and space restrictions come into play. You can't get 16 medium creatures into a single 5ft square. IIRC, the limit is something like 4 or 5 such creatures in one space. I'd probably rule that more creatures than that trying to get into the same grapple simply fail unless there're size differences at play.
Already part of the multiple grapplers rule, including how smaller/larger creatures count for less or more.

You can break free with a dc 20 str check so I'd probably fold that into the action of pulling yourself into your foe's space. It's unecessary if you've made your reflex check to avoid being grabbed for the current round.
Breaking free from Entangle (and moving a bit) is a full-round action. Not something I'd expect to be allowed for free along with an attack.

I'd go with calling them either woody plants (hardness 5) or not (hardness 2) and unless this all took place in a jungle or the like nothing more than an inch or two in diameter. A fireball would likely destroy all of it, regardless.
Depends on the hit points and the strength of the fireball. It takes 12 damage to break through object defense and hardness 5 to deal 1 damage, and another 2 for each hit point after that. How many inches thick is the plant after you squash it down?


Grappling notes from my main doc:

Grappling notes and clarifications (apparently I don't have a main grappling notes doc):
-Constrict/armor spikes deal damage in addition to the unarmed damage of a grapple check.
--This includes the roll to grab on with Improved Grab+Constrict.
--Constrict often applies on any grapple check even though it's not in the main definition (due to specific wording in monster entries), will be enforced/waived at DM's discretion.
-Improved Grab upgrades your grapple check damage from unarmed to match the natural weapon you grab with.
--Creatures that Improved Grab early in their attack routines can use the -20 option to keep the rest of their body un-grappled and finish their full attack, or just release the grapple immediately (or just waive it).
--The Snatch feat deals automatic squeze damage only to creatures 3 sizes smaller, but the Improved Grab effect still works against creatures only 1 size smaller.
---However, Snatch does not upgrade your grapple check damage to match your natural weapon.
-Multiple natrual weapons never convert into grapple checks, only BAB+haste do.
-Pinning an opponent only lasts for one round and must be repeated every round to maintain. This means creatures without high BAB, automatic damage, rakes, or the right type of constrict wording have trouble finishing off people they've pinned.
--Being pinned gives you Dex 0 regarding AC for a -5 modifier (as Rules Compendium), an additional -4 AC against people outside the grapple, and continues to deny you your dex bonus (lose dodge and get sneak attacked, etc) against those outside the grapple.

A big one to consider is ruling on Improved Grab+Constrict. As above, while many monster entries and rules definitions seem to think it's just used in place of a normal grapple check, it's actually additive, and the individual wordings almost always state that it happens on any grapple check- and hitting with Improved Grab triggers a check. This means that monsters with Improved Grab+Constrict can actually hit twice on a single attack, after moving, or even during the surprise round. The DM may view this as their intended level of danger and the correct reading, or as an an unintended bug and disregard it. I was in the former camp for some time, but after simulating some lower level MM1 constrictors like the the Darkmantle and normal Constrictor Snake (vs other monsters), I believe it is actually an error and Constrict is not meant to apply as part of an Improved Grab attack.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Already part of the multiple grapplers rule, including how smaller/larger creatures count for less or more.

So it is. I wonder if that means I think like a game dev, that the grappling rule are surprisingly realistic, or that my subconscious just thrust a memory up from the depths without bothering to tell my conscious mind. :tongue:


Breaking free from Entangle (and moving a bit) is a full-round action. Not something I'd expect to be allowed for free along with an attack.

Eh, you get a handhold on something that gives you leverage (the enemy) and you're not getting out of the entaglement at all regardles. I suppose that RAW says the attempt to grapple simply auto-fails since you can't move into the enemy space unless you've made your save for the round after breaking free the previou round.


Depends on the hit points and the strength of the fireball. It takes 12 damage to break through object defense and hardness 5 to deal 1 damage, and another 2 for each hit point after that. How many inches thick is the plant after you squash it down?

Min CL fireball is going to average 17-18 point of damage so on the woody plants you're getting 3-4 points of damage, most likely. An inch thick branch would take about 30 damage to burn through with certainty. CL 8 will get it done fairly reliably, CL 7 if it's coming off of a warmage.

That said, the nature of fireball is a bit more destructive than normal fire spells. It explicitly melts bronze and that's hardness 9 and 20 hp per inch. The line "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area," and the text that follows suggests to me that it's supposed to be -full- damage to objects rather than the usual half. Fire not bypassing the hardness of wood also seems odd.

I didn't actually say any of that before though and obviously other GMs might disagree.

[Quertus]

For the record, I knew about the # of grapplers bit… but there were people who were not part of the grapple attacking into the grapple. It became the focal point of the fight.

Nice to hear that Entangle would have made fight as dysfunctional as I feared.

Pinning only lasts one round? That's news to me.

I'll have to reread some stuff - I was allowing multiple natural attack forms to translate into multiple grapple attempts (which made an awful lot of sense when those grapple attempts were "damage with natural attack"…).

Speaking of… one last bit of crazy: suppose a Beholder was being grappled. Could it use its eye rays in the grapple, or just its bite? If it had Improved Grab, and got control of the grapple, could it hold someone with its mouth, while blasting someone else with its eyes?

[Fizban]

That said, the nature of fireball is a bit more destructive than normal fire spells. It explicitly melts bronze and that's hardness 9 and 20 hp per inch. The line "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area," and the text that follows suggests to me that it's supposed to be -full- damage to objects rather than the usual half. Fire not bypassing the hardness of wood also seems odd.
Contrary to gamer belief, wood does not instantly disintegrate when exposed to flame. It takes quite a while to burn through, and is a relatively good insulator. As for the note about melting, an object "destroyed" by fire damage isn't necessarily melted, the same way an object destroyed by slashing damage could be neatly split, or hacked into pieces, or just have a critically large chunk out of it. Though as what is most likely a holdover from previous editions coupled with newer rules, I don't expect it to make sense either way.

Maybe look up wood vs 1,900 F blowtorch? Of course, the duration is still anywhere from instant to however many seconds one decides instant is.


Pinning only lasts one round? That's news to me.
That's the one that really made me put those notes directly in my tweaks and brew doc, because it's critical- it's what keeps a grappling from being an auto-win for anyone with high BAB, and is what makes constrict and rakes actually matter.

I'll have to reread some stuff - I was allowing multiple natural attack forms to translate into multiple grapple attempts (which made an awful lot of sense when those grapple attempts were "damage with natural attack"…).
For most creatures with improved grab it should be a net gain, because they get to use the damage of their grabbing appendage in place of unarmed, on the iterative grapple checks with lol bonus (not "damage with natural attack," but "grapple for damage which is X instead of unarmed"). Creatures with low damage grabbers usually have rake attacks or something and should be going for a pin while they rake. As for it making sense, well they grab you with their grabber and shake you for multiple damage attempts (can't remember which animal explicitly uses the death shake IRL), instead of getting a swipe from each limb.

The swipe from each limb is already an elegant kludge to reconcile how some animals can obviously attack with all their limbs without having 16+ hit dice, but grappling mucks up animals too- unless their legs can rake you, the fact that you've apparently succeeded at grappling their upper body means both limbs and the distance of their head are now fixed in the grapple. If a human can grapple a bear, said bear won't be getting two claw attacks and a bite any more than the human would get two spiked gauntlets and a horned helm, it's all grapple checks.

Speaking of… one last bit of crazy: suppose a Beholder was being grappled. Could it use its eye rays in the grapple, or just its bite? If it had Improved Grab, and got control of the grapple, could it hold someone with its mouth, while blasting someone else with its eyes?
It's not in the main grapple or Su rules, but I know dragons are explicitly able to use breath weapons in a grapple. Don't know if it's actually called out as allowed anywhere else (doesn't appear in FAQs). I believe the line of thought goes that SLAs are purely mental actions that can't be stopped by a grapple (aside from the concentration check), and Su abilities are even more uninteruptible as long as your physiology isn't tied up. In the case of a dragon you'd need to pin them to hold their jaws shut. For a beholder, if you grappled it on the ground or against a wall and pinned it, I could see that allowing you to ground its eyes on the floor/wall so it can't use them. Otherwise its eyestalks are unimpeded and can be used as freely as any other Su ability in a grapple.