Incantifier x Warlock X Eldritch Theurge for Infinite Magic?

[Jowgen]

Incantifier is a neat, if not alltogether amazing, PrC from Dragon 339 3/5 progression PrC, which at 3rd level gets this ability:


Spell Leech I (Su): At 3rd level, an incantifier can channel absorbed arcane energy back into his own magic. If an arcane spell or spell-like ability does not beat the incantifier's spell resistance, the incantifier regains a spell of the absorbed spell's level that he has already cast that day or regains a used spell slot of the appropriate level. If the incantifier has his full compliment of spells, and thus has no cast spells or used spell slots, he cannot benefit from this ability. For example, if a wizard incantifier's spell resistance negates a lightning bolt, he can restore a single 1st-, 2nd-, or 3rd-level spell he had previously cast, regaining it as if he had never cast it.

Warlocks get to use their invocations at will, including Dark Forsight (from level 16 onwards) which is equivalent to a 9th level spell.

So my simple thought is, can we (with minimal chesse) get a character who has a) Dark Invocations, b) 9th level spellslots, and c) 3 levels in Incantifier?

Eldritch Theurge seems to be the main backbone of this idea, being a 10 level PrC that simultaneously fully advances casting and Invocations.

Our other mandatory building blocks are 1 level of Warlock (with a Cincture of Eldritch whatever), 1 level of our Arcane Spellcaster of choice with Precocious Apprentice (lets say Wizard)), and of course 3 levels of Incantifier that gives us +2 levels of casting progression on either Warlock or Wizard (I don't think it can be used on Eldritch Theurge for more dual progression).

So as is we have 10+1+1+2 = 15 levels, which gives us Warlock and Wizard magic at level 11 and 13 (either can be the high one).

This is where I am stuck.

We need level 17 on Wizard and level 16 on Warlock to get full power out of this idea.

Even if we contend ourselves with infinite 8th level spells, we still need 16 on Warlock (and 15 on Wizard) since Heighten SLA is limited to 3/day, so we're one level short (i.e. Wizard & Warlock 15).

The closest to a solution I know would be to try to extend Eldritch Theurge via Legacy Champion, which in exchange for 1 lost level of progression would then net us 4 levels of dual progression.

That would make 8th level spells feasible (Warlock 17, Wizard 15), but we're still 1 short off 9th levels (warlock 15, Wizard 17).

Anybody know of any solutions to this?

[Troacctid]

Just take Master of the Elements at level 21. That will give you a 9th level arcane SLA with only 13 effective levels of warlock.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Ultimate magus, instead of Legacy champion, I think gets you there.

[Jowgen]

Just take Master of the Elements at level 21. That will give you a 9th level arcane SLA with only 13 effective levels of warlock.

If the game goes into epic that would work, but really looking to keep it contained to 20.


Ultimate magus, instead of Legacy champion, I think gets you there.

I don't think it does? Even if we accept that Ultimate Magus works on Warlock despite specifying "+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane casting class " instead of “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1 level of existing spellcasting class”, I don't think you get more advancement out if it than you would by legacy championing Eldritch Theurge.

With 5 levels in UM, you get 3 levels of dual progression, and 2 levels of progressing the lower of your two base classes; adding up to the same 4 levels of dual progression we'd get out of Legacy Champion 5.

[Darg]

Warlocks get access to dark invocations at level 16, wizards at 17. The incantifier can choose on each level which arcane caster to level up.

1 Warlock level
1 Wizard level
10 Eldritch theurge levels
5 legacy champion (eldritch theurge) +4 class progression
1 level incantifier (warlock)
2 levels incantifier (wizard)

This gives 16th level warlock which gives one dark invocation and 17th level wizard which gives access to 9th level spells.

Just remember that the wording on the incantifier on a wizard will only return prepared spells and not just anything on the spell list.

[Troacctid]

If the game goes into epic that would work, but really looking to keep it contained to 20.
In that case, be a variant enchanter and get a warlock cohort. They'll get dark invocations around the same time you get 9th level spells.

[Tzardok]

This exploit won't work because of this:

If an arcane spell or spell-like ability does not beat the incantifier's spell resistance,

Please note the possessive form. It means that the spell or spell-like ability needs to target the incantifier and be resisted by him. Spell resistance never works against the caster's own spells or spell-like abilities. It's in the description of spell resistance in the DMG.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

(quote me about ultimate magus)

I don't think it does? Even if we accept that Ultimate Magus works on Warlock despite specifying "+1 level of existing spontaneous arcane casting class " instead of “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1 level of existing spellcasting class”, I don't think you get more advancement out if it than you would by legacy championing Eldritch Theurge.

With 5 levels in UM, you get 3 levels of dual progression, and 2 levels of progressing the lower of your two base classes; adding up to the same 4 levels of dual progression we'd get out of Legacy Champion 5.

My bad, didn't even crack the book, remembered it was dual arcane progression. I feel that most reasonable DMs would let magus count toward warlock given what CA says about warlocks and prestige classes, but I can also see how a strict reading wouldn't allow it.

[Jowgen]

Warlocks get access to dark invocations at level 16, wizards at 17. The incantifier can choose on each level which arcane caster to level up.

1 Warlock level
1 Wizard level
10 Eldritch theurge levels
5 legacy champion (eldritch theurge) +4 class progression
1 level incantifier (warlock)
2 levels incantifier (wizard)

This gives 16th level warlock which gives one dark invocation and 17th level wizard which gives access to 9th level spells.

Just remember that the wording on the incantifier on a wizard will only return prepared spells and not just anything on the spell list.

I think you misread, Incantifier only adss +1 level to existing casting class at levels 1, 3 and 5; so we're falling one short.


This exploit won't work because of this:


Please note the possessive form. It means that the spell or spell-like ability needs to target the incantifier and be resisted by him. Spell resistance never works against the caster's own spells or spell-like abilities. It's in the description of spell resistance in the DMG.

"The incantifier decides whether or not his spell resistance affects spells he casts on himself, either benefiting from the spell or healing as he chooses."

Technically doesn't mention the SLAs, but that'd be some real pedantic hairsplitting considering the rest of the ability's text.

[Darg]

I think you misread, Incantifier only adss +1 level to existing casting class at levels 1, 3 and 5; so we're falling one short.

Oops, that was a pathfinder conversion. Well, the only other option would be to convince the DM to allow continued progression for ET (never knew the reason for the 10th level maximum as it is fairly dumb and less thematic), but that might be a tough sell given the early entry shenanigans you are using for theurge in the first place unless the DM doesn't actually care. You can at least get 8th level spells infinitely.

[Tzardok]

"The incantifier decides whether or not his spell resistance affects spells he casts on himself, either benefiting from the spell or healing as he chooses."

Technically doesn't mention the SLAs, but that'd be some real pedantic hairsplitting considering the rest of the ability's text.

Oh. Okay. Does this also count for spells he casts on himself that don't allow spell resistance? Foresight, the spell Dark Foresight is based on, only allows spell resistance when cast on others (at least, if I understand its description correctly).

[ExLibrisMortis]

You could, perhaps, use a Spellhoarding Loredrake dragonwrought kobold sorcerer with Greater Rite of Draconic Passage as base? I know it's somewhat (okay, very) cheesy, but hey, free spellcasting levels.

[Jowgen]

Oh. Okay. Does this also count for spells he casts on himself that don't allow spell resistance? Foresight, the spell Dark Foresight is based on, only allows spell resistance when cast on others (at least, if I understand its description correctly).

"A warlock’s invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an invocation’s description specifically states otherwise." so yeah.


You could, perhaps, use a Spellhoarding Loredrake dragonwrought kobold sorcerer with Greater Rite of Draconic Passage as base? I know it's somewhat (okay, very) cheesy, but hey, free spellcasting levels.

Well, there is no kill like overkill...


Okay, something that might work with this would be a Trickster Spellthief with Masterspellthief, but the question is whether Spell Leech spells can be funneled into the Steal Spell pool. If so, the only thing required would to get our 9th level spells of choice as "known".

[Jack_Simth]

Perhaps an accelerated Arcane caster, like a Sublime Chord, could make this easier? I am afb right now, though.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I don't have that Dragon magazine, so I don't actually know at what point in this build you qualify for Incantifier... but I think the premise is sound*.

Sha'ir 1/ Warlock 2/ Mystic Theurge 2/ Eldritch Theurge 10/ Incantifier 3/ Mystic Theurge +2

... with Precocious Apprentice for a 2nd level spell that Sha'irs can cast as both divine and arcane, letting them qualify for Mystic Theurge with just one level (still need at least 3 levels total to meet the skill requirements, though). Mystic Theurge progresses Sha'ir as a divine casting class and Warlock as an arcane casting class, until you qualify for Eldritch Theurge. Then once you've got 10 levels of Eldritch Theurge and 3 of Incantifier, you can go back to Mystic Theurge to finish off the build.

End result is effectively Sha'ir 17/ Warlock 16. Just right.



*Unless Incantifier requires Wizard specifically, in which case... I'm going to look pretty foolish, now aren't I? And on that note, I also hope you get 2 levels of caster progression from the 3 levels you take, or you come out one level short...

[Jowgen]

I don't have that Dragon magazine, so I don't actually know at what point in this build you qualify for Incantifier... but I think the premise is sound*.

Sha'ir 1/ Warlock 2/ Mystic Theurge 1/ Eldritch Theurge 10/ Incantifier 3/ Mystic Theurge +3

... with Precocious Apprentice for a 2nd level spell that Sha'irs can cast as both divine and arcane, letting them qualify for Mystic Theurge with just one level (still need at least 3 levels total to meet the skill requirements, though). Mystic Theurge progresses Sha'ir as a divine casting class and Warlock as an arcane casting class, until you qualify for Eldritch Theurge. Then once you've got 10 levels of Eldritch Theurge and 3 of Incantifier, you can go back to Mystic Theurge to finish off the build.

End result is effectively Sha'ir 17/ Warlock 16. Just right.



*Unless Incantifier requires Wizard specifically, in which case... I'm going to look pretty foolish, now aren't I? And on that note, I also hope you get 2 levels of caster progression from the 3 levels you take, or you come out one level short...

I... I think this actually does it!?

Mystic Theurge can progress Sha'ir with the Divine +1s and Warlock with the Arcane +1s, essentially letting it serve as a second Eldritch Theurge.

What's even better is that its low entry requirements fix the skill prerequesite problem I had so far ignored.

Also, Incantifier is not Wizard exclusive, it just requires 6th level arcane spells to enter (also a buncha skills, non-good alignment and phylactery-equivalent crafting resources), provides 2 levels of progression over the first 3 levels as you thought, and serves to let us regain arcane spellslots by feeding Spells/SLAs to our SR.

So I think this works out.

Unless anyone sees an issue, I think you've successfully perfected my "Infitnite 9th level Spells" engine character idea. Kudos. :smallbiggrin:

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Unless anyone sees an issue, I think you've successfully perfected my "Infitnite 9th level Spells" engine character idea. Kudos. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks! Happy to contribute.

EDIT: Actually, you need one more level of Mystic Theurge before you can take Eldritch Disciple (to meet the max skill ranks). Edited the original post to fix it.

[Endarire]

Circle Magic + Heighten?