Thoughts on the new Artificer?

[WadeWay33]

Self explanatory. I’d like to hear what everyone has to think, and the homebrew adjustments they’ve made.

EDIT: Also, are there any good homebrew crafting systems you or someone out there has made?

[HappyDaze]

Homebrew adjustments for something that's only (officially) been released for 48 hours? Kids these days.

[Contrast]

I am thoroughly underwhelmed unfortunately. I thought it was at the lower end of the power spectrum previously and feel like they further nerfed it.

The loss of arcane weapon and extra attack on all but the battle smith kinda broke the specific build I was trying to achieve with my alchemist (strength based thrown weapons) and I'm not really feeling like the new stuff they've got in any way makes up for the difference between being a full and half caster.

I'll see how it goes but will probably ask for a rebuild or retire the character.

[jaappleton]

I don’t like it.

I don’t think it’s bad. It works. It’s functional. It does what it is supposed to do, it captures the feel of ‘magic inventor’, it evokes a feeling of ‘tinkerer’, etc.

I just don’t see a reason to pick it over any of the core classes. It doesn’t do anything better than any of the others.

Personally I also really, incredibly strongly hate any sort of minionmancy. And the only subclass with extra attack has a pet. So I’m not a fan of that.

In a low-magic game, the ability to create magic gear is very appealing. I can see it being useful then.

But compared to the other half casters, which get offensive boosts at level 11, this instead gets more utility. Which, don’t get me wrong, that’s useful. But now I’m falling behind my team mates.

That’s what the Artificer is: It’s a support class. It’s a ‘I have the solution to your problem!’ Class.

But it doesn’t really do that better than any of the others.

I’m happy it exists, because I always love more player options. I just don’t see the reason for me to ever be one.

[Dork_Forge]

I don’t like it.

I don’t think it’s bad. It works. It’s functional. It does what it is supposed to do, it captures the feel of ‘magic inventor’, it evokes a feeling of ‘tinkerer’, etc.

I just don’t see a reason to pick it over any of the core classes. It doesn’t do anything better than any of the others.

Personally I also really, incredibly strongly hate any sort of minionmancy. And the only subclass with extra attack has a pet. So I’m not a fan of that.

In a low-magic game, the ability to create magic gear is very appealing. I can see it being useful then.

But compared to the other half casters, which get offensive boosts at level 11, this instead gets more utility. Which, don’t get me wrong, that’s useful. But now I’m falling behind my team mates.

That’s what the Artificer is: It’s a support class. It’s a ‘I have the solution to your problem!’ Class.

But it doesn’t really do that better than any of the others.

I’m happy it exists, because I always love more player options. I just don’t see the reason for me to ever be one.

Well it create items better than any other class and that's the whole point of it but it certainly buffs as well as other classes in some areas. At level 11 you get the spell storing item which can be utility sure, or you can just have an overabundance of Shield ready, or use a 2nd level attack spell like it was a cantrip. Combine this with the built in boost Artificers get at 10 (Infusions scaling and a new magic item table unlocking) and they don't really fall behind the Ranger and Paladin in power, it's just a different kind.

If anything you could argue the Artificer does defense a lot better than most classes and remains competitive damage wise depending on your build choices.

[Dork_Forge]

Overall I really like it, though it's a shame they axed Arcane Weapon altogether instead of just nerfing it (drop it down to a d4 and fix the damage type at point of casting) and waiting for Arcane Jolt until level 9 is eh. I miss the first iteration of the Alchemist but the elixir is a step forwards (though I'd rather not a random one) and giving mechanical support to having a gun instead of a turret for the Artillerist is nice (though I uphold the temp hp version is broken good and shouldn't be an option). I like that the Homunculus is now an infusion (though another name would have been preferential), operation pokemon is officially a go.

Edit: Am I missing something or can you also create hands free foci now (and by extension hands free Spell Storing Items)?

[Contrast]

At level 11 you get the spell storing item which can be utility sure, or you can just have an overabundance of Shield ready

Just for reference it specifies that the spell needs to have a casting time of 1 action so Shield is out.

[Dork_Forge]

Just for reference it specifies that the spell needs to have a casting time of 1 action so Shield is out.

Good catch! Free Herosim or Blur every encounter is still a pretty good defensive buff.

[stoutstien]

Power wise I think they fall in-between ranger and paladin but definitely closer to paladin.
They have the best casting options with cantrips(which can be changed out on level up), ritual casting, and prepared casting.

Damage wise they range from average to good. Infusions being passed out or used selfishly make a big difference.

Defense is the same. Medium armor + shield is good but being selfish they can easily pump it up to the great category.

Crafting wise, they still left it almost completely up to a DM to deside how it works. I have mixed feeling on this.

The classes ability to spend spell slots to reuse subclass feature is solid. Can't Nova like a paladin but both the alchemist and artillerist can get a lot of mileage out of a 1st lv spell slot.

I think where the paladin is plug and play the artificer definitely take more set-up to play as effectively but they can always make a party better. Person taste here.

As a class i think they do a good job at placing features so multiclassing is always hard. Big upgrade from the UA which had a steep Cliff around 10-11. Still some good options out there for those who feel the need. Nothing like a pally/lock or pall/sorc but a forge cleric/battle Smith or warmage/battle Smith can be worth a look. I'm working on a Fighter/battle Smith Archer mounted on the defender.


Final score 8/10 crunch and 9/10 flavor.

[HolyDraconus]

Infusions need to be reworked. If the class is supposed to be dependent on them then they need to be more varied.

[stoutstien]

Infusions need to be reworked. If the class is supposed to be dependent on them then they need to be more varied.

65 options not enough?

[Squark]

Infusions need to be reworked. If the class is supposed to be dependent on them then they need to be more varied.


65 options not enough?

I suspect HolyDraconus doesn't count Replicate Magic Item as quite so many options. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with them; a greater variety of options to enchant weapons and armor at high levels would be much appreciated. Hopefully the Artificer will get support in future releases much as the Warlock continually gets new invocations.

[stoutstien]

I suspect HolyDraconus doesn't count Replicate Magic Item as quite so many options. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with them; a greater variety of options to enchant weapons and armor at high levels would be much appreciated. Hopefully the Artificer will get support in future releases much as the Warlock continually gets new invocations.

I agree the higher-level infusions could use some more weapons and armored diversity. Honestly i was hoping for more consumables on the list also. Maybe subclass specific ones like Potions, ammunition, and tokens.

Saying that, the list is adequate in covering lot of ground.

[GlenSmash!]

I really wanted to try a Multiclass Alchemist, but wasn't a huge fan of the homunculus. but the Random Elixir is worse. Oh and now it's pretty much gated to casting spells, but as a half caster.

My idea for a Repeating Shot using Artificer with potions and self made magic items to buff himself is out.

But I might be the only person who wanted that.

[stoutstien]

I really wanted to try a Multiclass Alchemist, but wasn't a huge fan of the homunculus. but the Random Elixir is worse. Oh and now it's pretty much gated to casting spells, but as a half caster.

My idea for a Repeating Shot using Artificer with potions and self made magic items to buff himself is out.

But I might be the only person who wanted that.

I don't think you're alone and that you were hoping that this class would be able to put fill a lot of niche ideas.

It would not be over power to allow the alchemists level 5 ability to work with damages from items also.
On that note allowing the class a whole to be proficient at throwing alchemist fire and vials of acid seem fitting.

[Ravinsild]

Well I like it myself.

It's a great support class, and I love the alchemist.

I'm trying to convince someone to play a big brawny dumb brute (Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian) and ride on their shoulders as a goblin and feed them buffs through my elixir and spells and give them gear to make them stronger.

Basically I want to play a Warcraft 3 Goblin Alchemist LOL.

[Garfunion]

I don’t know, to me it just feels like a re-skinned warlock.

I was kind of hoping that they would move away from “damaging” cantrips, and have the artificer create items they would attack with. Like a lesser version of alchemist’s fire potion. But a cantrip can be re-skinned to do the same thing.
I would even be ok with them making eternal wands with one or two cantrips on them.

I don’t know, I may stick with the MFoV’s Alchemist Class.

[xen]

If they had any sort of magic item crafting system the artificer could interact with, maybe it would not feel so underwhelming to me. I already run a high magic game, so the magic item infusions do nothing for me.

On a side note is there any good crafting system homebrews out there I could plug in?

[Dankus Memakus]

I think it's really solid. It's getting undervalued currently but I think once it gets played more the mixed opinions will become more positive opinions. The problem is I think people expected a different end result than what they got and that can be frusterating.

[Anderlith]

I’m pretty disappointed in a lot of the changes. It still seems playable but I really wish it had more umph. But the most important thing I need to mention is WHERE IN THE ABYSS IS THE MULTIPOUCH INFUSION?

[Teaguethebean]

Power wise I think they fall in-between ranger and paladin but definitely closer to paladin.

What does this mean? Paladin is one of the best classes and ranger is one of the worst. Where are you claiming they fall.

[Protolisk]

What does this mean? Paladin is one of the best classes and ranger is one of the worst. Where are you claiming they fall.

Less than the best, better than the worst? Middle pack, is my understanding. And I'd mostly agree.

[stoutstien]

What does this mean? Paladin is one of the best classes and ranger is one of the worst. Where are you claiming they fall.

They are the other '1/2 casters ' to compare against. I admit it's a wide mark to hit but they could have missed it.

Power wise I would say they can be close to a Paladin if they are selfish.

[Chrizzt]

Homebrew adjustments for something that's only (officially) been released for 48 hours? Kids these days.

The artificer is an official class now? Where? When?

[GlenSmash!]

The artificer is an official class now? Where? When?

Eberron: Rising from the Last War. Tuesday.

[Chrizzt]

Eberron: Rising from the Last War. Tuesday.

Thank you! Is this "more official" than the Wayfarers Guide to Eberron? I understand that the last one is.. "semi official"?

[Throne12]

Thank you! Is this "more official" than the Wayfarers Guide to Eberron? I understand that the last one is.. "semi official"?

It's a Official book book with a special cover only available to stores. So yes if your playing AL this can be your +1

[GlenSmash!]

Thank you! Is this "more official" than the Wayfarers Guide to Eberron? I understand that the last one is.. "semi official"?

Yeah that was a weird in between pay for playtest material book.

This is the genuine article.

[Ravinsild]

Yeah that was a weird in between pay for playtest material book.

This is the genuine article.

It very much confused me. I bought Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron because they were like "This is a living book so we will continue to update it"....which they kind of did? But also didn't? Rise From the Last War is in many ways completely different. I kind of feel like I wasted my money honestly. I guess I should have done more research but they made it sound like they would just keep editing it and it was the official book that would be finalized some day. IDK. oh well.

[GlenSmash!]

It very much confused me. I bought Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron because they were like "This is a living book so we will continue to update it"....which they kind of did? But also didn't? Rise From the Last War is in many ways completely different. I kind of feel like I wasted my money honestly. I guess I should have done more research but they made it sound like they would just keep editing it and it was the official book that would be finalized some day. IDK. oh well.

I personally would think just like you did. I decided to hold off and see what would happen and I'm glad I did.

[Relbin]

First impressions?

Looks right where it needs to be. Generally class has high flexibility and utility. It lost some DPR in place of better spells/support options and better high level abilities.

Alchemist - a really good healer/support class. Elixers seem generally better than 1st level spells. Flight is particularly good at level 3 to give to a squishy.

Artillerist - lost some weapon power for better turret. Good list for blasters. I see a lot of scorching rays in spell storing items.

Battlesmiths - Seems amazing at tanking between infusions and pet. This is the arcane half-caster. A good choice for those who want to play a martial type with shield, blur and haste faster than the Eldritch Knight and tougher than the Bladesinger.

[Makorel]

I like it. It sucks that they got rid of Arcane Weapon, but considering they got rid of extra attack for the main class then that means Arcane Weapon is only for the Battle Smith, and why are we introducing a whole new spell for a single subclass? The correct option was to buff Arcane Jolt, and they did buff it from 2d4 to 2d6. I just wish it was more than your INT mod on a long rest, maybe short rest or even at will at 9th level I think would have been fine. Battle Smith still looks really good especially with Sentinel strats.

Why get rid of extra attack though? Well if we look at the Artillerist they won't be using it anyway. Arcane Firearm adds a d8 to any damage roll and Eldritch Cannon is another 2d8. Throw out a Shatter and that's 6d8 at 5th level, comparable to a full caster's Fireball. Artillerist manages to keep up at higher levels too when it gets fireball, spell storing wand, and when the cannon scales by damage and then number; you have a bit less range but a lot of staying power for a blaster. I'm honestly pretty excited that WotC seems to have made a half-caster blaster that can keep up with the full casters.

The one subclass I'm worried about is the Alchemist. Since it doesn't have any of the direct power of the Artillerist or Battlesmith it has to rely on its support to be useful. The one class I think that does support over direct damage and succeeds is the Bard and I'm not sure the Alchemist measures up. It's got buffed healing words, more hp and temp hp it can throw out in potions, extra uses of lesser restoration at 9th level, and can give its spell storing wand to others for their use I guess. No one thing about the Alchemist really seems too impressive to me.

[Anderlith]

Alchemist does need an attack option, a bread & butter type attack. One thing I noticed about the Artillerist is that you can give tiny cannons legs & still be able to hold them. So you could theoretically do an “I surrender” type thing & put the cannon on the ground, only for it to sneak off & blast them when their guard is down.

& why is there no mutlipouch? It really wasn’t broken & had a TON of versatility

[Waazraath]

I like.

It kinda is like the warlock in crunch, with lots of different options from different sources (spells, infusions, sub class abilities). Like the warlock, it can be build for a lot of different roles (tank, ranged, support, buff), but the crunch is totally different. So it adds a lot for me (even though I'm not an Ebberon fan, I never played in the setting, harly own any of the 3.x books of the setting).

My biggest worry is the disbalance in subclasses, at least for the combat pillar of the game. Alchimist seems to get the short stick, the elixer effects aren't that hot. Both the Artillerist and the Battle Smith have obvious options for combat, in which they get quite good, but the Alchimist seems mostly stuck wth spells/cantrips, which isn't all that for a half caster.

The Battlesmith can get obscene defenses (deflect attack from the defender, shield spell, shield & medium armor proficiency) - grab the sentinel and war caster feats, and go to town.

Funny thing: the level 10 infusions Headband of Intellect and Gaunlets of Ogre power/belt of hill giant strength (for a melee Artificer) allow an Artificer to ignore all stat increases in favour of feats, and still have very decent stats. That should allow for interesting combinations.

Oh, and great there is another int based class in addition to the wizard.

[HappyDaze]

Funny thing: the level 10 infusions Headband of Intellect and Gaunlets of Ogre power/belt of hill giant strength (for a melee Archivist) allow an Archivist to ignore all stat increases in favour of feats, and still have very decent stats. That should allow for interesting combinations.

The Eberron version has no Archivist.

[Goldlizard]

is There a link to the iteration you are referring to?

[Kane0]

Any source we can use to review without purchasing?

[HappyDaze]

is There a link to the iteration you are referring to?

Sure. Use this. (https://www.amazon.com/Eberron-Campaign-Setting-Adventure-Dungeons/dp/0786966890/ref=sr_1_1?crid=RBOYEMQYAXWX&keywords=eberron+rising+from+the+last+war&qid=1574370897&sprefix=ebrron%2Caps%2C210&sr=8-1)

[Anderlith]

Could an Artillerist, with a Homunculus hand a tiny arcane cannon to said Homunculus & have it just hold it/give it a ride & in doing so blast targets from the air? I’m not seeing any reason an Artillerist couldn’t have it

[jaappleton]

I know of only three and a half (you'll see in a moment) classes / subclasses capable of creating magical weapons as a feature, without any sort of spell (Because who wants that? I have other stuff to Concentrate on).

1. Arcane Archer lv7 creates magical arrows only (here's the half, its predetermined what weapons it functions with)
2. Pact of the Blade Warlocks (may require Improved Pact Weapon invocation, AFB right now)
3. Artificers
4. Forge Domain Clerics

There is something to be said about the ability to do that.

In a game like Curse of Strahd or Descent Into Avernus, resistances come into play pretty often. Also, in 99% of published adventures, the magic items available are predetermined. How many adventures have a magic hand crossbow? Or a magic glaive? I don't think there's any. And then there's instances where your Fighter picked Duelist style, but the only magic weapon you've come across is a +1 Greatsword. Sure, you'll take it, but now you've invalidated your fighting style.

Artificer gets to bypass all that.

There is a lot of value to that, depending on your campaign and possibly your DM. I have seen some DMs willing to modify written material (alter that +1 Greatsword into a Glaive for the player to took Polearm Master, for example) in order to accommodate their players. But some don't, and if you're playing Adventurer's League, well... That's a whole different ball of wax.

Upon a bit closer inspection of the Artificer class, I absolutely see the comparisons people are making to Warlock; The magic items are / can be very similar to Invocations. You can really build your character around the magic items / Invocations, as they can really short up weaknesses of your character or radically alter playstyles. Some Invocations, as we know, are entirely unique, others just basically are magic items (Improved Pact Weapon). What one is better I think is up for much debate, because one is full casting and the other isn't, Artificers get more class features to compensate for that, among all the other differences.

[Waazraath]

The Eberron version has no Archivist.

my bad, I edited my mistake (wrote archivist instead of artificer)

[Kane0]

I know of only three and a half (you'll see in a moment) classes / subclasses capable of creating magical weapons as a feature, without any sort of spell (Because who wants that? I have other stuff to Concentrate on).

1. Arcane Archer lv7 creates magical arrows only (here's the half, its predetermined what weapons it functions with)
2. Pact of the Blade Warlocks (may require Improved Pact Weapon invocation, AFB right now)
3. Artificers
4. Forge Domain Clerics

There is something to be said about the ability to do that.



All sorcerers with the alternate feature UA.

[KorvinStarmast]

WHERE IN THE ABYSS IS THE MULTIPOUCH INFUSION? It's over there on the shelf next to the rest of the cheese in the dairy section. :smallbiggrin:


Could an Artillerist, with a Homunculus hand a tiny arcane cannon to said Homunculus & have it just hold it/give it a ride & in doing so blast targets from the air? I’m not seeing any reason an Artillerist couldn’t have it Ooh, I like that idea. I'll discuss it with my artificer player.

Just to illustrate some fun with cannons ... as I mentioned here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/159901/22566)...


A Protector cannon can be a lot better than cure wounds ...

Fun Protector Cheese
Set up a Protector with an action (it lasts for an hour) and keep loading up your allies with 1d8+Int mod Temp Hit Points each round as a bonus action. Even if the Artificer burned a spell slot to do this, that's potentially a lot more HP than a "cure wounds" (1d8+Mod) or a healing word (1d4 +mod) cast once.
With three allies, you can offer each of them 1d8+mod of damage prevention (THP) each round for the cost of a bonus action.
And, if you have two fights within one hour, you keep covering them in THP to mitigate damage taken - but you didn't have to use any more spell slots.

Note that the THP also applies to the cannon, which will reduce the chances that it gets reduced to 0 HP during the fight. (Until you get to higher levels) Good fun, but it can't "get them up off the ground/yo-yo heal" like healing word can. Though I'd offer that prevention of going to 0 HP is a good idea.

My thought:

The Battle Smith's pet: why can't the Beast Master Ranger have a nice thing like this?

[Chaosmancer]

I wasn't impressed by the Alchemist's random elixir. Sure, getting flight at level 3 could be nice. 10ft of movement for 10 minutes can at least get you places. But, you don't get to choose that, you have to roll randomly. Unless you are spending your spell slot to make a second one.

Also, as another poster pointed out, the Temp Hp turret can bust out a lot of "healing" effect, which far surpasses the 2d4+Int that the Alchemist does, especially since it is an action to drink that elixir.

Everything else is fine (expcept for getting rid of the Archivist, I loved that subclass and will be bringing it back) but that level 3 ability is just weirdly bad.

So, I tried a rework for it, basing it off of the version of the Alchemist with the limitless bag from a while back.

Potent Elixir

Beginning at 3rd level, whenever you finish a long rest, you can magically produce an elixir in an empty flask you touch. Choose an Elixir Effect from the table, which is triggered when someone drinks the elixir or throws it. As an action, a creature can drink the elixir or administer it to an incapacitated creature.

Creating an elixir requires you to have alchemist’s supplies on your person, and any elixir you create with this feature lasts until it is drunk or until the end of your next long rest.

When you reach certain levels in this class, you can make more elixirs at the end of a long rest: two at 6th level and three at 15th level. Each elixir requires its own flask.

You can create additional experimental elixirs by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher for each one. When you do so, you use your action to create the elixir in an empty flask you touch, and you choose the elixir’s effect from the Experimental Elixir table.

If an Elixir requires a saving throw, the DC is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier.

Alchemical Fire: You create a vial of volatile liquid which you can hurl at a creature, object, or surface within 30 feet of you. On impact, the vial detonates in a 5-foot radius. Any creature in that area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 4d6 fire damage.

This damage increases by 1d6 when you reach certain levels in this class: 9th level, 15th level, and 19th level

(Maxes out at 7d6, and you get three. A Flamethrower turret does 3d8 in similiar area a turn by the mid point, so I feel comparable)

Alchemical Acid: You create a vial of acid, and hurl the vial at a creature or object within 30 feet of you. The vial shatters on impact. A creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 2d8 acid damage. An object automatically takes that damage, and the damage is maximized.

This damage increases by 1d8 when you reach certain levels in this class: 9th level, 15th level, and 19th level

(Maxes out at 5d8, Force turret does 3d8 per hit by mid level)

Healing Draught: You create a vial of potent healing liquid. A creature can drink it as an bonus action to regain 2d8 hit points.

This healing increases by 1d8 when you reach certain levels in this class: 9th level, 15th level, and 19th level

(Maxes out at 5d8, Temp Hp turret does 1d8+mod as a bonus action, temp hp is rarely wasted)

Swift Step Draught: You create a vial of bubbling, brown liquid. As an action, a creature can drink it. Doing so increases the creature’s speed by 10 feet for 1 hour.

This increase increases by 5 ft at 9th level, 15th level, and 19th level

Resilient Draught: You create a vial of iron-grey liquid. As an action, a creature can drink it. Doing so increases the creatures Ac by +1 for 10 minutes.

The duration increases by 20 minutes at 9th level and becomes an hour at 19th level. The AC bonus increases to +2 AC at 15th level.

Just as a rough draft. I'm thinking of adding the bless brew, but thinking of scaling it along the same lines is difficult.

I am curious if people think it is too much or not.

[Lockwolfe]

The more I look at it the more underwhelming it feels. I'm a bit disappointed. The main changes were that they took away Arcane Weapon, Extra Attack, and moved the level 6 subclass features to level 9. Alchemist got reworked, and though I like the direction they went much better than the previous iteration, it is in need of a buff. Random elixirs? Really? They can get pretty good mileage out of a level 1 spell slot, but as half-casters their main ability shouldn't be tied to such a limited resource. Arcane weapon was the Artificer's hex/hunter's mark, and without it they're losing a pretty big feature. Was feedback really that negative on it? And now they're the only half-caster without extra attack. Cool.

I will say, if your DM is open to you crafting permanent magic items it is a better class. If I DM for any artificers I will encourage them to spend their downtime crafting, and especially encourage potion-making for alchemists. I really like the thematic nature of this class, and it isn't unplayable. I think it just requires a bit of extra work to use.

[Contrast]

I will say, if your DM is open to you crafting permanent magic items it is a better class. If I DM for any artificers I will encourage them to spend their downtime crafting, and especially encourage potion-making for alchemists.

I don't know if you'd noticed but the class doesn't actually get any bonus to crafting until level 10 under the redesign.

[Lockwolfe]

I don't know if you'd noticed but the class doesn't actually get any bonus to crafting until level 10 under the redesign.

Ah, I thought the subclasses got bonuses. You are correct, I guess that was just a UA thing. I use homebrew crafting rules anyway, but that's something they really should get at earlier levels, I'm not sure why they removed that.

[Garresh]

I love the class. I'm going to playing one as soon as possible. But the Alchemist is a hot mess. The elixirs are so weak they might as well not exist. The buff to healing is okay, but the problem is that it doesn't enhance any of the healing sub-roles to any major degree. It doesn't have sufficient sustained healing to matter. Enhancing healing on a half caster just isn't enough to keep people topped off. And it doesn't have a burst heal either. Enhancing a healing word doesn't really do much. You're not going to boost the healing enough that they won't go down in another hit. It's not completely worthless, but it falls so far behind the other subclasses.

The worst part is that it is actually out healed by both of the other half casters. Paladins lay on hands and spell slots will outperform Alchemist. Ranger gets the OP healing spirit.

Really, the Alchemist fails to matter in literally every role. I know I'm ragging on it hard, but its up there with Battlerager or Berserker. Meanwhile, the class itself id great.

Artificer rocks, just do NOT the Alchemist with a ten foot pole.

[HolyDraconus]

I suspect HolyDraconus doesn't count Replicate Magic Item as quite so many options. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with them; a greater variety of options to enchant weapons and armor at high levels would be much appreciated. Hopefully the Artificer will get support in future releases much as the Warlock continually gets new invocations.


I agree the higher-level infusions could use some more weapons and armored diversity. Honestly i was hoping for more consumables on the list also. Maybe subclass specific ones like Potions, ammunition, and tokens.

Saying that, the list is adequate in covering lot of ground.
Correct. The class is supposed to be infusion based. Magic items are nice, but they are a cop out from actually working in actual unique infusions. Why cant a high level artificer be able to infuse an already magical item? I feel that infusions need to be reworked.

I’m pretty disappointed in a lot of the changes. It still seems playable but I really wish it had more umph. But the most important thing I need to mention is WHERE IN THE ABYSS IS THE MULTIPOUCH INFUSION?
I got mileage out of it and I have to admit that its cheese. Fun not stanky cheese, but gouda none the less.

The more I look at it the more underwhelming it feels. I'm a bit disappointed. The main changes were that they took away Arcane Weapon, Extra Attack, and moved the level 6 subclass features to level 9. Alchemist got reworked, and though I like the direction they went much better than the previous iteration, it is in need of a buff. Random elixirs? Really? They can get pretty good mileage out of a level 1 spell slot, but as half-casters their main ability shouldn't be tied to such a limited resource. Arcane weapon was the Artificer's hex/hunter's mark, and without it they're losing a pretty big feature. Was feedback really that negative on it? And now they're the only half-caster without extra attack. Cool.

I will say, if your DM is open to you crafting permanent magic items it is a better class. If I DM for any artificers I will encourage them to spend their downtime crafting, and especially encourage potion-making for alchemists. I really like the thematic nature of this class, and it isn't unplayable. I think it just requires a bit of extra work to use.

Agreed. A lot of the choices that went into the class just feels like a miss. Arcane weapon was fine if the damage was locked on casting. Removal just feels excessive. Moving the abilities to level 9 still leaves that hole that they have. It's just no longer at 9. The capstone feels extremely powerful.... but then you realize that its strapped to the artificer and they need the help. A fighter having it would be busted. A bard, rogue or paladin? Same. This class? Eh?

[Dork_Forge]

Correct. The class is supposed to be infusion based. Magic items are nice, but they are a cop out from actually working in actual unique infusions. Why cant a high level artificer be able to infuse an already magical item? I feel that infusions need to be reworked.

I got mileage out of it and I have to admit that its cheese. Fun not stanky cheese, but gouda none the less.


Agreed. A lot of the choices that went into the class just feels like a miss. Arcane weapon was fine if the damage was locked on casting. Removal just feels excessive. Moving the abilities to level 9 still leaves that hole that they have. It's just no longer at 9. The capstone feels extremely powerful.... but then you realize that its strapped to the artificer and they need the help. A fighter having it would be busted. A bard, rogue or paladin? Same. This class? Eh?

I agree that removal of Arcane Weapon is a shame and excessive, but I don't understand why you think it's such a mess. It sounds like you feel they don't really get anything after 9th but besides spells there's infusion scaling and then at 11th SSI. The capstone is certainly powerful, but I don't see why you think it'd be busted on other classes but not the class with already sky high defenses and the ability to create their own attunement items.

The Alchemist does feel lack lustre though, I miss the first iteration with all the different recipes to learn.

[MinMaxMunchking]

I think it's awesome in a way we didn't have in game so far. It can support the party in so many ways and still be just as good on its own.

If we collectively dig deeper into the class and then try and combine it with the features of other classes, I'm sure some hidden gems will surface - with so many spells, magic items (infusions) and new features, some new strong combos will pop up for sure. Besides, INT spellcasting needed some love anyway and Artificer is pretty much spot on.

I am about to play Warforged Artillerist soon. Probably gonna keep it singleclass for the whole campaign just to see how it goes, but I've already made up my mind on infusions in combination with class+subclass spells and features.

Behold - Braincraft the Boomstick Boombot! (still trying to find a good picture for it, any good links anyone?)

[jaappleton]

Listen, folks... I'm a big fan of anything that can be cheesed in this game, and as much as I love Arcane Weapon, that spell was broken.

1. It made a weapon magical
2. +1d6 damage of any elemental type

Compare it to its contemporaries: Hex, Hunter's Mark, and Divine Favor

Hex and Hunter's Mark are both +1d6 and are cast on a target, requiring a bonus action to change targets.
Divine Favor is a flat +1d4 and impacts your weapon, so it automatically works on anyone you hit.

None of those three make your weapon magical.

This takes the benefit of Divine Favor, lets you pick the damage type, gives it a damage boost, and makes the weapon magical.

That's at minimum a 2nd level spell. Minimum. And they made it a 1st level.

Don't get me wrong, I was really looking forward to MCing it with Alternative Ranger so I could stack Arcane Weapon with the new non-Concentration Hunter's Mark, but alas...

[Merudo]

Does the WizardX/Artificier1 dip make WizardX/Fighter1 obsolete?

Both give you constitution saving throws, medium armor, and shield.

You miss out on the +1AC of the defensive fighting style, but you get 2 extra cantrips (including Guidance), and can prepare up to 6 extra level 1 spells (including Cure Wound and Sanctuary).

Not a bad deal.

[jaappleton]

Does the WizardX/Artificier1 dip make WizardX/Fighter1 obsolete?

Both give you constitution saving throws, medium armor, and shield.

You miss out on the +1AC of the defensive fighting style, but you get 2 extra cantrips (including Guidance), and can prepare up to 6 extra level 1 spells (including Cure Wound and Sanctuary).

Not a bad deal.

Depends on the race selection. With some of the Dragonmark races you get healing spells added to your list, so Cure Wounds becomes less appealing.

I personally would lean toward getting Cure Wounds on my list as opposed to +1 AC if I'm not going to be on the front lines. Even if its just Cure Wounds, and I'm not the healer, that's still a very nice 'break glass in case of emergency' button to have. That can be the difference between winning and losing a fight, a player getting KO'd versus dying.

[stoutstien]

Just for kicks I'm going to run a few simulations comparing artificer to paladin in each tier. I'm going to compare:
Alchemist to oath of ancient. More support focused.

Battle Smith to oath of devotion. Front line support/damage mitigation.

Artillerist to vengeance. Make stuff dead so a side of party support.

It going to take a few days to set up but I'll post the results when I get it finished.

Feat: yes

Multiclassing: no

Magic items: they are going to run 2 published campaigns with a standard 4 man party so moderate amount of items.

Average encounters per S/L rest: 3/7

Average encounter difficulty: medium/hard.

[Damon_Tor]

I love the artificer. It's easily my favorite class. I love the flexibility and the complex interactions that please the parts of my brain that like to add 2+2 and wind up with 5.

Thematically, I love that they're the "wide magic" spellcaster, a ton of ways to get lots of lower-impact magical effects out there into the world. This is best reflected in the Spell Storage Item, which amounts to an extra 10 level 1 or 2 spell slots a day, but many of their features seem to reflect this design philosophy in one way or another.

[Ravinsild]

I somehow feel like I am the ONLY person excited for the Alchemist, but I'm really happy with it. I've never liked Bards (for one reason or another), but I cannot wait to be a support class Alchemist throwing out Elixirs and heals and damage and crowd control. I'm just super excited. Granted I'll be playing a goblin, so not very optimized (without rolling 15 starting intellect boohoo) but it is what it is.

I almost wish we had a goblin subrace to add +1 int or +2 int to be a foil to the gnomes like in WoW and the "smart but crazy goblin inventor" trope where they're mad scientists. It's a really popular trope, but whatever. Maybe can homebrew that or maybe it's just fine to be a little worse but having a ton of fun idk.

[stoutstien]

I somehow feel like I am the ONLY person excited for the Alchemist, but I'm really happy with it. I've never liked Bards (for one reason or another), but I cannot wait to be a support class Alchemist throwing out Elixirs and heals and damage and crowd control. I'm just super excited. Granted I'll be playing a goblin, so not very optimized (without rolling 15 starting intellect boohoo) but it is what it is.

I almost wish we had a goblin subrace to add +1 int or +2 int to be a foil to the gnomes like in WoW and the "smart but crazy goblin inventor" trope where they're mad scientists. It's a really popular trope, but whatever. Maybe can homebrew that or maybe it's just fine to be a little worse but having a ton of fun idk.

Goblin actually works well with alchemist. You can start with 3 15s in Dex,con, and int and use half feats to round it out.(observant, Reis Dex, aberrant dragon mark)
Having a solid use of you bonus action means you will always be where you are needed.

[Ravinsild]

Goblin actually works well with alchemist. You can start with 3 15s in Dex,con, and int and use half feats to round it out.(observant, Reis Dex, aberrant dragon mark)
Having a solid use of you bonus action means you will always be where you are needed.

My plan is to find a co-op partner in a game and have them play a huge strength based race like Goliath, Minotaur, Centaur or something and ride on their shoulders and flavor my spells and abilities as like chemical spray healing (any healing I've got), acid bombs (acid spray cantrip), and buffing them by shoving weird chemical concoctions into them to buff them (my elixirs, etc..) and generally be a force multiplier so they can dish out ECKSBAWKS HUUGE DPR.

Of course I'll support the whole party, but the gimmick is riding around on a brute's shoulders and just "experimenting" on them and making them angrier and fight better and protect them hahaha.

I used Standard Array to get decent stats, but not 15's in all that. I did like 15 int, 13-14 Con, 14 Dex (bumped to 16), 12 wis 8-10 cha 8 str or something similar.

[stoutstien]

My plan is to find a co-op partner in a game and have them play a huge strength based race like Goliath, Minotaur, Centaur or something and ride on their shoulders and flavor my spells and abilities as like chemical spray healing (any healing I've got), acid bombs (acid spray cantrip), and buffing them by shoving weird chemical concoctions into them to buff them (my elixirs, etc..) and generally be a force multiplier so they can dish out ECKSBAWKS HUUGE DPR.

Of course I'll support the whole party, but the gimmick is riding around on a brute's shoulders and just "experimenting" on them and making them angrier and fight better and protect them hahaha.

I used Standard Array to get decent stats, but not 15's in all that. I did like 15 int, 13-14 Con, 14 Dex (bumped to 16), 12 wis 8-10 cha 8 str or something similar.

Even without the potential cheese of the elixirs stacking on them selves o think the alchemist will do just fine.

The lv 5 features wording allows both targets of acid splash to take the +int to damage so we have a solid little anti mook effect. Melfs acid arrow and flaming sphere botj also have guaranteed damage so you know you'll get it there also. Not amazing damage but consistency.
Healing word is a solid spell even at lv 1 slot with 1d4+ int modifier x 2.

[Damon_Tor]

It's worth noting that an "alter self" elixir used to make 1d6 natural weapons also creates said natural weapon as a +1. That's HUGE for a monk at level 3.

[Lockwolfe]

Listen, folks... I'm a big fan of anything that can be cheesed in this game, and as much as I love Arcane Weapon, that spell was broken.

1. It made a weapon magical
2. +1d6 damage of any elemental type

Compare it to its contemporaries: Hex, Hunter's Mark, and Divine Favor

Hex and Hunter's Mark are both +1d6 and are cast on a target, requiring a bonus action to change targets.
Divine Favor is a flat +1d4 and impacts your weapon, so it automatically works on anyone you hit.

None of those three make your weapon magical.

This takes the benefit of Divine Favor, lets you pick the damage type, gives it a damage boost, and makes the weapon magical.

That's at minimum a 2nd level spell. Minimum. And they made it a 1st level.

Don't get me wrong, I was really looking forward to MCing it with Alternative Ranger so I could stack Arcane Weapon with the new non-Concentration Hunter's Mark, but alas...

Oh, sure, I wasn't expecting Arcane Weapon to get published in its UA form. Get rid of the magical weapon part and you can no longer switch the damage type as a bonus action. Done. Ready for publishing. Maybe nerf it to a d4. Getting rid of it entirely without any replacements is just lazy. Where are the Artificer specific spells? Every other class has spells specific to their spell list. I know they get infusions, but at least throw them one or two spells to make their list unique.

[Chaosmancer]

I love the artificer. It's easily my favorite class. I love the flexibility and the complex interactions that please the parts of my brain that like to add 2+2 and wind up with 5.

Thematically, I love that they're the "wide magic" spellcaster, a ton of ways to get lots of lower-impact magical effects out there into the world. This is best reflected in the Spell Storage Item, which amounts to an extra 10 level 1 or 2 spell slots a day, but many of their features seem to reflect this design philosophy in one way or another.

Yeah, that Spell Storage Item is massively powerful, subtle, but massively powerful.

[Anderlith]

Everyone keeps talking about how awesome the Spell Storing Item is but what would you realistically put in it? Cure Wounds or Web? Not much else is useful that you might need 8-10 castings of it

[stoutstien]

Everyone keeps talking about how awesome the Spell Storing Item is but what would you realistically put in it? Cure Wounds or Web? Not much else is useful that you might need 8-10 castings of it

If you can't think of 10 ways to use SSI to make a DM furrow their brow you might be playing the wrong class.

[Anderlith]

If you can't think of 10 ways to use SSI to make a DM furrow their brow you might be playing the wrong class.

It’s one first or second level Artificer spell. Their spell list is not huge & only has utility. There are not many reasons to cast most of these more than once or twice let alone eight to ten. Many of their spells are Rituals. Don’t be dismissive of an appeal & not actually have an answer to the question

[MrCharlie]

Everyone keeps talking about how awesome the Spell Storing Item is but what would you realistically put in it? Cure Wounds or Web? Not much else is useful that you might need 8-10 castings of it
Basically, every artificer spell.

False life-pass it around the party, free temp HP. Hell, give it to the familiars as well.

Aid, same reason, but real hit points. Also, it doubles as a healing word. Also, you can affect 30 creatures with it if your INT is 10, which is almost overkill.

Alter self, to a degree. Alchemists can do it earlier, but there isn't actually any other effect which lets you polymorph another player into another humanoid form except true polymorph, which is like using a nuke to mine coal.

Blur is incredible, because it's not you concentration on it; this one is tricky to abuse the number of castings, but you can abuse the lack of concentration. Give it to one of the melee characters; requires predicting when battles happen, but that's not too hard.

Darkvision/see invisibility are both non-concentration, spammable, and useful when used. See invisibility in particular should be tossed on the best perception dude every hour on the hour if there is nothing better to use, simply to negate any cleverness.

Invisibility/enhance ability are probably the best options behind blur, both being very versatile buffs limited by your use of concentration or lack of slots to use them. Enhance ability in particular is incredibly good; just keep a stick of it for the party to tap whenever they want to make an important ability check. Advantage on all skills!

Levitate/Spider climb are both good mobility enhancers. levitate is also an "I win" button against anything that can't fly or reach 20+ feet in an open space.

Finally Lesser Restoration, in case you ever need it.

Finally; nothing says that you can't put spells from your subclass table that count as artificer spells for you in it, so Healing Word because of course healing word, Heroism because it's a good spell, and Warding Bond because you can give it to other people and have them act as HP batteries.

Warding Bond has particular potential-At the least it makes the Barbarian into a super-tank because now you really do have to kill that sucker to effectively get at his buddies, otherwise they'll take half-damage from everything. Alternatively, have a Druid cast healing spirit and keep a mount sitting in it on the edge of the range. The only downside is the 60 foot limit, but it doesn't say there needs to be an open path between them, so you can try getting creative with having people on the roof, or even extra-dimensional spaces if the DM is feeling kind.

[Damon_Tor]

Everyone keeps talking about how awesome the Spell Storing Item is but what would you realistically put in it? Cure Wounds or Web? Not much else is useful that you might need 8-10 castings of it

Any buff or debuff you want up every single encounter, especially because you can have someone else concentrate on it for you. Web is a great choice, but so is Faerie Fire. Your monk friend might want to use Alter Self every encounter for +1 to his unarmed attacks, your grapple-optimized fighter might want enlarge/reduce to he can get swole enough to wrestle elephants. And the concentration-reassignment aspect of the SSI is great for another reason: you can apply a buff to the whole party by having everyone simply cast it on themselves. Have to sneak the whole party past an army? Load your SSI with Invisibility and pass it around. Fancy dinner and you can't have anybody say anything stupid? Enhance Ability for advantage on charisma checks. And another interesting point: the SSI removes the need for material components, which means a level 11 artificer who isn't adventuring is crafting 10 Everburning Torches a day, every day, for free. Easy money.

But if you look at my signature, you'll see the real power of the SSI: its use in TSARs, Tiny Robot Actuated Robots. You see, nothing prevents an SSI from being used by multiple creatures in the same round, and the Artificer gets the spell Tiny Servant at level 9. Combining the SSI and the Tiny Servants, you can build a super-weapon, a plasma cannon that casts scorching ray 10 times in a round, or or a cannon that uses catapult to fire 10 vials of acid, or an artillary barrage that casts shatter 10 times. A Battlesmith can get the servants to cast Warding Bond on him, acting like a little bank of hitpoint batteries.

[Anderlith]

All the subclass spells are 3rd & above
Blur is one that might be nice but it’s not one that you need ten times a day.

As for the mobility stuff, you shouldn’t need that ten times a day & a lot of the time you don’t always know you need it. A lot of the time you just need one use & a rope.

Yeah, a bunch of healing is nice but that’s what I was saying in the first place, the SSI doesn’t really offer the amount of versatility as people seem to think. It’s mostly just a buff stick to pass around the party. It’s not a game changer

[stoutstien]

It’s one first or second level Artificer spell. Their spell list is not huge & only has utility. There are not many reasons to cast most of these more than once or twice let alone eight to ten. Many of their spells are Rituals. Don’t be dismissive of an appeal & not actually have an answer to the question
Ok then.
A familiar flying around casting shatter or SR.

Aid for all the conjure X spells.

Invisibility button for whoever wants it or chain it on the rogue using tiny servant/familiar in the pocket.

Rope trick to hide a small army or guarantee uninterrupted short rests

Warding bond everyone. Works wonders with tiny servant or any disposal minion.

Catapult can fire around corners. Cross fire!

Grease gun!

Suddenly 10 commoners have magic bows.

[Damon_Tor]

It’s not a game changer

Yeah you're going to need to check out the link in my signature. Its a bit out of date because the SSI got buffed in the official release (in play-testing they didn't get it until level 17) but all the same mechanics work just as well.

[Anderlith]

Are you guys looking at a different spell list than me? Warding Bond as well as a few other spells mentioned are not on the Artificer List

[stoutstien]

Are you guys looking at a different spell list than me? Warding Bond as well as a few other spells mentioned are not on the Artificer List

It's on the battle Smith list.

[Anderlith]

It's on the battle Smith list.
Fifth level spells cannot be placed in a SSI

[stoutstien]

Fifth level spells cannot be placed in a SSI

5th lv artificer = 2nd lv spells

[Anderlith]

Ah! Now I see my mistake. Now I see, those extra do make it worth it

[AdAstra]

Enhance Ability also seems solid considering the 1 hour duration. Chances are throughout the day you'll always be able to have someone making an ability check at advantage. Mostly non-combat but still nice. Or you could use Bear's Endurance to get 2d6 THP, so you kinda get the benefit of False Life while being able to do other things too.

Magic Weapon could also be a godsend in certain campaigns.

Faerie Fire is a solid effect with a decent area, so that's pretty good too.

[stoutstien]

I like the idea of 10 guardsman grabbing a stave and suddenly 10 flaming spheres are rolling all over the streets chasing the Invaders.

Could also set up the CCC. Commoner catapult cannon. Total cover and a few spot mirrors and start launching the payloads at the targets.clay pot full of red hot sand is a favorite.

[Pex]

Warforged are mentioned as being living humanoids to verify they can be healed normally as any other race. However, do they also count as constructs for the Battle Smith's Steel Defender's Repair ability?

[AdAstra]

Oh! actually, would hiring a gaggle of peasants or whatever to cast Levitate out of the SSI work? Potentially very effective CC against big dumb melee monsters.

[MrCharlie]

But if you look at my signature, you'll see the real power of the SSI: its use in TSARs, Tiny Robot Actuated Robots. You see, nothing prevents an SSI from being used by multiple creatures in the same round, and the Artificer gets the spell Tiny Servant at level 9. Combining the SSI and the Tiny Servants, you can build a super-weapon, a plasma cannon that casts scorching ray 10 times in a round, or or a cannon that uses catapult to fire 10 vials of acid, or an artillary barrage that casts shatter 10 times. A Battlesmith can get the servants to cast Warding Bond on him, acting like a little bank of hitpoint batteries.
Emphasis mine-this particular one should fail because Warding Bond can only be cast once on a creature before it fails, and Tiny Servants have 10 HP, so A. You can't cast it 10 times all at once B. You only effectively soak one hit, and C. We can't have the servants ready to use the item if Warding Bond drops because i. it's not a ranged spell and ii. they need to have the item on them to use it, which requires another action to get as it's not their turn to free interact.

(We can have other servants ready their actions to relay it potentailly, but that's only five casts and the servants still need to be clustered around you, which is dangerous in an of itself).

So, in summary, you should just get someone to buy an elephant, maybe two, have a druid charm them into casting warding bond on you, then sit them on the roof of whatever building you need to explore instead. Alternatively, yet another use for zombies, who are much better HP sponges.

(This is also assuming your servants aren't massacred by an enemy with AOE, which either requires lenient rules about if they can hide under your cloak, a bag of holding with lenient rules for getting them out, or the ability to plan encounters so they are safe until it's ready to fire the cannon).


Oh! actually, would hiring a gaggle of peasants or whatever to cast Levitate out of the SSI work? Potentially very effective CC against big dumb melee monsters.

Levitate works against anything stupid enough not to be born with magical powers, opposable thumbs for operating ranged weapons, or wings.

Oh, and as a general aside; Dragonmarks also add the spells to your spell list, which works with this ability. Not finding any great cheats yet, but I'm sure there are a few decent ones.

[stoutstien]

Oh! actually, would hiring a gaggle of peasants or whatever to cast Levitate out of the SSI work? Potentially very effective CC against big dumb melee monsters.

Every tables with artificer is going to hear, "I hire 10 commoners." A lot lol.

Can skeletons under animate dead attune to magic items? Hello bone knights.

[Teaguethebean]

Everyone keeps talking about how awesome the Spell Storing Item is but what would you realistically put in it? Cure Wounds or Web? Not much else is useful that you might need 8-10 castings of it

Blur? Misty step if you are a mark of passage? Invisibility? Enhance ability? Lesser restoration? Heat Metal? All great spells for a partial to borrow especially Enhance ability on a rogue. and that isn't even looking at subclasses like the possibility to give your fighter shield. Honestly I think this is easily the best feature the class has.

[stoutstien]

Blur? Misty step if you are a mark of passage? Invisibility? Enhance ability? Lesser restoration? Heat Metal? All great spells for a partial to borrow especially Enhance ability on a rogue. and that isn't even looking at subclasses like the possibility to give your fighter shield. Honestly I think this is easily the best feature the class has.

Doesn't work with Mistry step due to bonus action but it is definitely worth looking at the DM spells (knock) for additional fun finds.

[ZiddyT]

I want to essentially play a 5E version of a Mutagenist (Alchemist Alter Self elixirs + Frenzy Barbarian) and Bomber (Alchemist + Thief Rogue). It will not be good, but it's still cool.

That said I'm super underwhelmed by the class in general. It cribs so many features from other classes and then deliberately depowers them instead of giving them their own identity. I don't know if it's a lack of creativity or just how much they're afraid of how everyone overestimates power levels (just look at the changeling CHA debacle), but it's disappointing. But I've kinda given up on expecting the game to be developed in a way that appeals to me.

The most frustrating part is that they have such terrible action economy. People are touting these elixirs as making Alchemist such a good healer without acknowledging the actions required for actually using them. They're still not good preventative healing (I think Artillerist can do that with its turret, though), and you're gonna have a bad time trying to get someone up from unconsciousness with them.

The full action required to summon eldritch cannons is also a feel bad. At level 5 you're spending both your action and bonus action to deal 2d8 while a Ranger gets to Hunter's Mark up a couple shots for 2d8+2d6 and 2x Dex. The lack of concentration would be a point in the cannon's favor, but a) not enough to make up for losing an action on the most important round of combat and b) people seem very receptive to the concentration-free Hunter's Mark variant feature. So, yeah. The only thing that really helps it out is that it's easier to set up pre-combat, but that's if you get the drop on something or are lucky enough to have an encounter within an hour otherwise.

The Battlesmith is doing well, but ultimately it's just a better beastmaster which, okay, that's cool I guess. It's a bit boring though. Overall I think Artificer just doesn't compare favorably to other half-casters.

[Ravinsild]

Basically, every artificer spell.

False life-pass it around the party, free temp HP. Hell, give it to the familiars as well.

Aid, same reason, but real hit points. Also, it doubles as a healing word. Also, you can affect 30 creatures with it if your INT is 10, which is almost overkill.

Alter self, to a degree. Alchemists can do it earlier, but there isn't actually any other effect which lets you polymorph another player into another humanoid form except true polymorph, which is like using a nuke to mine coal.

Blur is incredible, because it's not you concentration on it; this one is tricky to abuse the number of castings, but you can abuse the lack of concentration. Give it to one of the melee characters; requires predicting when battles happen, but that's not too hard.

Darkvision/see invisibility are both non-concentration, spammable, and useful when used. See invisibility in particular should be tossed on the best perception dude every hour on the hour if there is nothing better to use, simply to negate any cleverness.

Invisibility/enhance ability are probably the best options behind blur, both being very versatile buffs limited by your use of concentration or lack of slots to use them. Enhance ability in particular is incredibly good; just keep a stick of it for the party to tap whenever they want to make an important ability check. Advantage on all skills!

Levitate/Spider climb are both good mobility enhancers. levitate is also an "I win" button against anything that can't fly or reach 20+ feet in an open space.

Finally Lesser Restoration, in case you ever need it.

Finally; nothing says that you can't put spells from your subclass table that count as artificer spells for you in it, so Healing Word because of course healing word, Heroism because it's a good spell, and Warding Bond because you can give it to other people and have them act as HP batteries.

Warding Bond has particular potential-At the least it makes the Barbarian into a super-tank because now you really do have to kill that sucker to effectively get at his buddies, otherwise they'll take half-damage from everything. Alternatively, have a Druid cast healing spirit and keep a mount sitting in it on the edge of the range. The only downside is the 60 foot limit, but it doesn't say there needs to be an open path between them, so you can try getting creative with having people on the roof, or even extra-dimensional spaces if the DM is feeling kind.

If a Barbarian is raging and has resistance to piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage and Warding Bond is on them.... what happens? Immunity?

[stoutstien]

If a Barbarian is raging and has resistance to piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage and Warding Bond is on them.... what happens? Immunity?

Doesn't stack but the +1 AC is always nice.

[Damon_Tor]

Emphasis mine-this particular one should fail because Warding Bond can only be cast once on a creature before it fails, and Tiny Servants have 10 HP, so A. You can't cast it 10 times all at once
Correct, you do not cast it all at once.

You only effectively soak one hit
A few points here.
This is a great use for Aid, to increase the HP of the servants which effectively increases your own hitpoints far more efficiently than if you cast it on yourself.
Remember that Warding bond gives you more than resistance, it gives you +1 AC and +1 to all saves. +1 doesn't seem like much, but as an artificer you have access to some of the best AC and saves in the game because you create your own magic items and can attune to more than 3. The more AC you have and the higher your saves are, the more valuable a bonus becomes. If a given enemy hit you on a 16+ on the die then a +1 to AC represents a 20% decrease in the amount of damage you take. So they save you from damage in more ways than by absorbing it.
The Tiny Servants will "absorb" damage well in excess of their own hitpoints: if a Tiny Servant has 2 HP remaining you you take 20 damage from an attack, the resistance Warding Bond gives you reduces it to 10 regardless.



and C. We can't have the servants ready to use the item if Warding Bond drops because i. it's not a ranged spell and ii. they need to have the item on them to use it, which requires another action to get as it's not their turn to free interact.

There's no requirement for a readied spell to be ranged. And there's no reason several tiny servants cannot be holding the same SSI at the same time.


(We can have other servants ready their actions to relay it potentailly, but that's only five casts and the servants still need to be clustered around you, which is dangerous in an of itself).

The servants are tiny, they can be as small as coins or buttons, and so can easily fit underneath your armor, in total cover.

[stoutstien]

I want to essentially play a 5E version of a Mutagenist (Alchemist Alter Self elixirs + Frenzy Barbarian) and Bomber (Alchemist + Thief Rogue). It will not be good, but it's still cool.

That said I'm super underwhelmed by the class in general. It cribs so many features from other classes and then deliberately depowers them instead of giving them their own identity. I don't know if it's a lack of creativity or just how much they're afraid of how everyone overestimates power levels (just look at the changeling CHA debacle), but it's disappointing. But I've kinda given up on expecting the game to be developed in a way that appeals to me.

The most frustrating part is that they have such terrible action economy. People are touting these elixirs as making Alchemist such a good healer without acknowledging the actions required for actually using them. They're still not good preventative healing (I think Artillerist can do that with its turret, though), and you're gonna have a bad time trying to get someone up from unconsciousness with them.

The full action required to summon eldritch cannons is also a feel bad. At level 5 you're spending both your action and bonus action to deal 2d8 while a Ranger gets to Hunter's Mark up a couple shots for 2d8+2d6 and 2x Dex. The lack of concentration would be a point in the cannon's favor, but a) not enough to make up for losing an action on the most important round of combat and b) people seem very receptive to the concentration-free Hunter's Mark variant feature. So, yeah. The only thing that really helps it out is that it's easier to set up pre-combat, but that's if you get the drop on something or are lucky enough to have an encounter within an hour otherwise.

The Battlesmith is doing well, but ultimately it's just a better beastmaster which, okay, that's cool I guess. It's a bit boring though. Overall I think Artificer just doesn't compare favorably to other half-casters.

Alchemist is lacking I admit but still can be a solid pick.
The big difference between artificer and the other half casters is there SaD base. Grab a 14 in Dex and pump int and that's it. Both paladin and rangers are wanting 2 big stats.
Damage wise they maintain about 80% of single target damage of paladin and can match rangers in Mook cleanup.

[MrCharlie]

Correct, you do not cast it all at once.

A few points here.
This is a great use for Aid, to increase the HP of the servants which effectively increases your own hitpoints far more efficiently than if you cast it on yourself.
Remember that Warding bond gives you more than resistance, it gives you +1 AC and +1 to all saves. +1 doesn't seem like much, but as an artificer you have access to some of the best AC and saves in the game because you create your own magic items and can attune to more than 3. The more AC you have and the higher your saves are, the more valuable a bonus becomes. If a given enemy hit you on a 16+ on the die then a +1 to AC represents a 20% decrease in the amount of damage you take. So they save you from damage in more ways than by absorbing it.
The Tiny Servants will "absorb" damage well in excess of their own hitpoints: if a Tiny Servant has 2 HP remaining you you take 20 damage from an attack, the resistance Warding Bond gives you reduces it to 10 regardless.




There's no requirement for a readied spell to be ranged. And there's no reason several tiny servants cannot be holding the same SSI at the same time.



The servants are tiny, they can be as small as coins or buttons, and so can easily fit underneath your armor, in total cover.
Ah, I've never, not for one second, believed you can hide familiars/any creature on your person in "total cover". If being under a robe was total cover, then you could drape yourself in a cloth and ignore fireballs. If it doesn't count if you're wearing it you can just have someone hold it for you; the party then morphs into all the hirelings/zombies holding sheets over people in between turns.

No, I think your servants would fry in AOE, but if your okay with that you could absolutely have a bunch of animated buttons "hold" a stick and then ready to cast the spell; I see nothing that prevents that. The difficulty is if you can't keep them on your person, which is where the spell being ranged matters. You would have to move servants to you off turn, which you could do but requires a daisy chain of some sort to move them into and out of cover. They can at least theoretically all carry each other unencumbered-they are buttons with a 20 pound carrying capacity-but readying movement actions is the issue.

If you disagree about the total cover thing, Ima be frank and say that we should just agree to disagree, it seems too ridiculous for me to take seriously. It's one of those things where there isn't any rule that says a creature has to be hidden behind something that should, in any way, actually block the incident attack-but then we just start getting ablative shielding of meteor swarms with cloth. Hell, you could argue that a laying of dust should block fireballs, if you squint enough, or even that the fog provides full cover.

[Mjolnirbear]

So the alchemist's elixir vs the cannon both get one free use a day and can both be summoned by spending a spell slot. It seems logical to compare the two, which then the argument becomes basically, what's better, versatility or combat strength?

The artillerist gets to choose, but his choices are limited. The cannon is great in combat and no where else. It can't even use your SSI. in combat, of course, it is eminently superior.

The alchemist doesn't get to choose for the free one, but gets to choose otherwise. The effects are basically level-one spells, except for Flight and Transformation. They get alter self two levels earlier, and Fly is extremely good even so limited. For the rest of the game, they always get flight or alter self out of a level one spell slot. That's not shabby. More importantly, like the SSI, these are spells you can let other people cast at times of their choosing. It makes you king of preparation.

At level 9, your level-one spell effects also gain False Life (which has been upcast to at least 2nd level). Three levels worth for a level 1 spell slot. That you get to choose, except the free times, which are basically free level 1+ spells.

That seems pretty strong. It's not damage, but not everything should be about damage. If you don't need the duration for *fly* or *alter self* then this is perfect and saves your second-level slots for things like scorching ray. Your wizard could cast longstrider but in many circumstances your version is better, for cheaper. Not always. But often enough.

[Chaosmancer]

Ah, I've never, not for one second, believed you can hide familiars/any creature on your person in "total cover". If being under a robe was total cover, then you could drape yourself in a cloth and ignore fireballs. If it doesn't count if you're wearing it you can just have someone hold it for you; the party then morphs into all the hirelings/zombies holding sheets over people in between turns.

No, I think your servants would fry in AOE, but if your okay with that you could absolutely have a bunch of animated buttons "hold" a stick and then ready to cast the spell; I see nothing that prevents that. The difficulty is if you can't keep them on your person, which is where the spell being ranged matters. You would have to move servants to you off turn, which you could do but requires a daisy chain of some sort to move them into and out of cover. They can at least theoretically all carry each other unencumbered-they are buttons with a 20 pound carrying capacity-but readying movement actions is the issue.

If you disagree about the total cover thing, Ima be frank and say that we should just agree to disagree, it seems too ridiculous for me to take seriously. It's one of those things where there isn't any rule that says a creature has to be hidden behind something that should, in any way, actually block the incident attack-but then we just start getting ablative shielding of meteor swarms with cloth. Hell, you could argue that a laying of dust should block fireballs, if you squint enough, or even that the fog provides full cover.

Not to jump into your sarcasm too hard, but you realize the Battle Smith he is talking about can wear medium armor right?

A tiny creature (such as a scorpion or spider) could realistically fit underneath something like a breastplate, and that wall of steel between them and a spell effect could conceivably count as total cover.

Not sure I would allow it, but it isn't as ridiculous as you make it sound. Especially since many spells specify "an object not worn or carried", so carrying a stack of papers in your hands makes them fireproof by RAW.

[Chaosmancer]

So the alchemist's elixir vs the cannon both get one free use a day and can both be summoned by spending a spell slot. It seems logical to compare the two, which then the argument becomes basically, what's better, versatility or combat strength?

The artillerist gets to choose, but his choices are limited. The cannon is great in combat and no where else. It can't even use your SSI. in combat, of course, it is eminently superior.

The alchemist doesn't get to choose for the free one, but gets to choose otherwise. The effects are basically level-one spells, except for Flight and Transformation. They get alter self two levels earlier, and Fly is extremely good even so limited. For the rest of the game, they always get flight or alter self out of a level one spell slot. That's not shabby.

At level 9, your level-one spell effects also gain False Life (which has been upcast to at least 2nd level). Three levels worth for a level 1 spell slot. That you get to choose, except the free times, which are basically free level 1+ spells.

That seems pretty strong. It's not damage, but not everything should be about damage. If you don't need the duration for *fly* or *alter self* then this is perfect and saves your second-level slots for things like scorching ray. Your wizard could cast longstrider but in many circumstances your version is better, for cheaper. Not always. But often enough.

Many of the Alchemist effects are only meant for combat as well.

Bonus to AC, healing, bonus to attack rolls and saves.

The only ones you could argue are the speed increase (rarely going to matter, but it might) the flight and the alter self.

But both of those are also really situational unless you are doing a lot of intrigue and spying and want to use Alter Self for the disguise potential.

[Mjolnirbear]

Many of the Alchemist effects are only meant for combat as well.

Bonus to AC, healing, bonus to attack rolls and saves.

The only ones you could argue are the speed increase (rarely going to matter, but it might) the flight and the alter self.

But both of those are also really situational unless you are doing a lot of intrigue and spying and want to use Alter Self for the disguise potential.

True, but concentration single-target Bless or Shield of Faith is also pretty good. And you can do it in advance whilst spreading around the action cost.

Flight is good in combat and good in exploration, and alter self is perfect for intrigue games. Its not situational, and it's versatile. Want to swim down into the well? You can do that. Big digging claws for escaping the cave? Sounds great. And it is even better than disguise self at intrigue.

It's not the best at combat but that was my point. It's not useless in combat either. It's the very definition of versatile.

Also, 'alter self is situational' is erroneous. It's not at all. But if by that you mean "crap for combat" then all that shows is your games and play styles don't incorporate significant portions of Exploration or Social (aka spying, sneaking, defrauding, protecting criminal enterprise from discovery, intrigue, diplomacy, or intimidation). Which isn't bad; you like what you like. But you can't measure a fish's intelligence by how well it climbs trees. In an intrigue, noir, or social campaign, alter self is OP. In a combat campaign it is still useful.

Damage is a useful metric, but if damage was all that mattered, no one would play bards.

[Damon_Tor]

Ah, I've never, not for one second, believed you can hide familiars/any creature on your person in "total cover". If being under a robe was total cover, then you could drape yourself in a cloth and ignore fireballs.

I never suggested it was under a robe. I suggested it was under armor. I would rule that being under a robe would offer concealment (total concealment, even) but not cover, but that's not backed up by anything but my gut.

Keep in mind objects, yes, even worn and held objects, can be the targets of attacks. Even magic items are valid targets of attacks and can be destroyed, though they are explicitly more durable. A dungeon master would be entirely within his rights to have a dragon attack a PC's armor if there are creatures hiding underneath it and if the dragon thinks it would be worth his time to try to tear them out. So a PC using his armor in this way is playing a dangerous game.

[jaappleton]

I kinda wish it didn't get Cantrips and instead got a Fighting Style.

[WadeWay33]

I kinda wish it didn't get Cantrips and instead got a Fighting Style.

I wish they either got more cantrips or that.

[Quietus]

On a closer read of the Artillerist's Eldritch Cannon...


Once you create a cannon, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest or until you expend a spell slot of 1st level or higher.



The Artificer table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your artificer spells. To cast one of your artificer spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher.

That isn't indicating that you have to spend a spell slot to create a new cannon. That's saying you just have to have expended a spell slot. And casting a spell explicitly expends a spell slot, allowing you to make a new cannon.

[stoutstien]

I wish they either got more cantrips or that.

They are the only class that can retrain cantrips which is a pretty big deal. You can use magic stone at low levels then switch it out to when you think it falls behind.

Can always make wands to cover the nice to have handy but not worth a spell known cantrips or scrolls for quick turnaround of you don't have a week to make a wand.

[stoutstien]

On a closer read of the Artillerist's Eldritch Cannon...





That isn't indicating that you have to spend a spell slot to create a new cannon. That's saying you just have to have expended a spell slot. And casting a spell explicitly expends a spell slot, allowing you to make a new cannon.

This was clarified by Crawford already. You need to spend a spell slot on the cannon to get it.

[Quietus]

This was clarified by Crawford already. You need to spend a spell slot on the cannon to get it.

Is that errata, or word of god? I have no problem playing it that way at my table, but that isn't what they wrote.

[stoutstien]

Is that errata, or word of god? I have no problem playing it that way at my table, but that isn't what they wrote.
Anyone reading the rules in an overly pedantic style will find the game unplayable.

I'm thinking this on the list of, "yep we better change that wording to match alchemist."

Part of the joy of grabbing first prints.
*Water whip is still a bonus action at my tables

[Quietus]

Anyone reading the rules in an overly pedantic style will find the game unplayable.

I'm thinking this on the list of, "yep we better change that wording to match alchemist."

Part of the joy of grabbing first prints.
*Water whip is still a bonus action at my tables

I would politely disagree with the bolded. I would say that once you combine that with an absolute rigidity, yes, that becomes an issue. Yes, RAI has been clarified, and at the table, I find that's good enough. I would (and will!) present both to my DM and go with whichever interpretation is most interesting to them. But I also personally find it interesting to look specifically at what is written and debate that, and until errata is released correcting the book, RAW and RAI are not in agreement.

[stoutstien]

I would politely disagree with the bolded. I would say that once you combine that with an absolute rigidity, yes, that becomes an issue. Yes, RAI has been clarified, and at the table, I find that's good enough. I would (and will!) present both to my DM and go with whichever interpretation is most interesting to them. But I also personally find it interesting to look specifically at what is written and debate that, and until errata is released correcting the book, RAW and RAI are not in agreement.

*Candles don't need to be lit to put out light
* The darkness spell can make something more visible or a room brighter
*If you have multiple movement speeds you can move faster on a turn so a swim speed mean you also run faster.

The unraveling of 3.X is an example of trying to get written rules correct at the cost of the spirit of them.

I do agree having a basis of understanding of what the rules say as written is important. They are also the first thing that I will disregard in making a call.

[Quietus]

*Candles don't need to be lit to put out light
* The darkness spell can make something more visible or a room brighter
*If you have multiple movement speeds you can move faster on a turn so a swim speed mean you also run faster.

The unraveling of 3.X is an example of trying to get written rules correct at the cost of the spirit of them.

I do agree having a basis of understanding of what the rules say as written is important. They are also the first thing that I will disregard in making a call.

Yup. There's lots of absurdities in the rules. And I love to explore them, just to see how many ways I can poke my finger into the system without losing it. As mentioned, at a table, I am not unyeildingly rigid about RAW. This is pure theory that I am exploring right now, in a white room.

Stepping outside of that - while I think "Spend a spell slot for a turret" is absolutely what they meant and how it will play at almost every table, I also think that it would have been interesting if "Cast a spell, then spend an action to gather whatever remains into experimental potion" was how they'd written the alchemist class. Let every experimental potion be random, BUT also let the alchemist gather one potion per spell slot expended as an action. Clean up after an encounter, use the remains for something that could still be useful. Sounds very alchemist to me.

[Garresh]

Wait, explain those technicalities and abuses to me. They sound hilarious.

[stoutstien]

Yup. There's lots of absurdities in the rules. And I love to explore them, just to see how many ways I can poke my finger into the system without losing it. As mentioned, at a table, I am not unyeildingly rigid about RAW. This is pure theory that I am exploring right now, in a white room.

Stepping outside of that - while I think "Spend a spell slot for a turret" is absolutely what they meant and how it will play at almost every table, I also think that it would have been interesting if "Cast a spell, then spend an action to gather whatever remains into experimental potion" was how they'd written the alchemist class. Let every experimental potion be random, BUT also let the alchemist gather one potion per spell slot expended as an action. Clean up after an encounter, use the remains for something that could still be useful. Sounds very alchemist to me.

I actually wish they did leave the text for alchemist more open but it has the additional text of it takes an action and an empty flask.

Artillerist is probably the one who needs the least help to be a ppwerhouse Where alchemist will take some clever thinking.

[stoutstien]

Wait, explain those technicalities and abuses to me. They sound hilarious.
Ok lol.
Phb- candle- for one hour of the candle sheds bright light in a 5-foot radius in dim light..
Compared to touch- a torch burns for one hour...
So a candle is just a tap light with bad batteries.

Magical Darkness can be seen through with effects like devil sight so it can counter natural dim light by making it lighter by making it darker. Mostly all the vision rules are wonky.

The bonus speed one is a breakdown of keeping the movement rules simple. Because your different types are movement are separate movements with in a pool all kind of weird limits and combos have nonsensical results. You can jump up faster than you can fall or the faster your movement the faster you fall. Even better, the higher you are the faster you fall.
Anything that involves movement without using your own speed is wonky.
Same problem that a creature with 20 movement can stand up 'quicker' from prone than one with 40.

[Misterwhisper]

Some odd questions:

Tiny turret fits in your hand, so I assume I could just summon it and the. Carry it around like a handgun?

It can also be summoned to and horizontal surface and can essentially stick to it. Could I just put my shield down and summon it into it and walk around with a turret on my shield?
What about onto my shoulder predator style?

So essentially I can have my shield, a turret on each shoulder my rod gun I in one hand and attack 3 times a round with various bonuses and effects?

With all that and the normal artificer stuff I don’t even care if they cast spells.

[AdAstra]

Ok lol.
Phb- candle- for one hour of the candle sheds bright light in a 5-foot radius in dim light..
Compared to touch- a torch burns for one hour...
So a candle is just a tap light with bad batteries.

Magical Darkness can be seen through with effects like devil sight so it can counter natural dim light by making it lighter by making it darker. Mostly all the vision rules are wonky.

The bonus speed one is a breakdown of keeping the movement rules simple. Because your different types are movement are separate pools, a player with a fly speed can use both walking and a flying speed in one turn/round. Because a round is roughly 6 seconds having multiple types of movement increases the players relative speed of each type of movement within that 6 seconds.
Same problem that a creature with 20 movement can stand up 'quicker' from prone than one with 40.

The movement speed one doesn't work, unless you're referring to something else. You can only move a distance up to your fastest speed, since you subtract any distance already moved from your speed when you switch (phb 190). So if you have a flying speed of 30 feet, you can't walk 30 feet then fly 30 feet.

[Quietus]

Some odd questions:

Tiny turret fits in your hand, so I assume I could just summon it and the. Carry it around like a handgun?

It can also be summoned to and horizontal surface and can essentially stick to it. Could I just put my shield down and summon it into it and walk around with a turret on my shield?
What about onto my shoulder predator style?

So essentially I can have my shield, a turret on each shoulder my rod gun I in one hand and attack 3 times a round with various bonuses and effects?

With all that and the normal artificer stuff I don’t even care if they cast spells.

Pretty much exactly on all of those. You might find a DM who doesn't consider a shield a "horizontal surface" for some reason, but I imagine if you can set your shield on the ground, then the ground is horizontal enough.

As far as carrying the tiny turret as a handgun, yes. Flavor how you like, whether that's a handgun, shoulder cannon, wrist-mounted flamethrower, etc. Keep in mind, this is level 14. You'd be doing a cantrip+d8 damage action, and two turrets as a bonus. If both turrets are damage based, that's 6d8 potential turret damage. Very respectable output.

Note that you can also use spell storing item for 10 casts of Shatter, at 4d8 damage each. 10 foot burst 4d8 damage, plus 6d8 from turrets, up to ten times.

[stoutstien]

The movement speed one doesn't work, unless you're referring to something else. You can only move a distance up to your fastest speed, since you subtract any distance already moved from your speed when you switch (phb 190). So if you have a flying speed of 30 feet, you can't walk 30 feet then fly 30 feet.

I forgot the line about speed increasing effects. I'll go back and add it.

[Chaosmancer]

True, but concentration single-target Bless or Shield of Faith is also pretty good. And you can do it in advance whilst spreading around the action cost.

Flight is good in combat and good in exploration, and alter self is perfect for intrigue games. Its not situational, and it's versatile. Want to swim down into the well? You can do that. Big digging claws for escaping the cave? Sounds great. And it is even better than disguise self at intrigue.

It's not the best at combat but that was my point. It's not useless in combat either. It's the very definition of versatile.

Also, 'alter self is situational' is erroneous. It's not at all. But if by that you mean "crap for combat" then all that shows is your games and play styles don't incorporate significant portions of Exploration or Social (aka spying, sneaking, defrauding, protecting criminal enterprise from discovery, intrigue, diplomacy, or intimidation). Which isn't bad; you like what you like. But you can't measure a fish's intelligence by how well it climbs trees. In an intrigue, noir, or social campaign, alter self is OP. In a combat campaign it is still useful.

Damage is a useful metric, but if damage was all that mattered, no one would play bards.

Please don't make assumptions.

Alter Self has three uses. The Natural Weapon, as discussed, is kind of crappy. I don't think it would actually allow for claws capable of burrowing, but that is a fun interpretation and a clever use. OF course, using that requires you be in a situation where digging through a large pile of dirt quickly is worth it.

The Aquatic Adaption seems useful, but in reality, it may not be nearly as useful as it appears on the tin. Remember, you can hold your breath for a number of minutes equal to your Con mod plus 1. That means your average character can hold their breath for 2 to 3 minutes before needing to surface and grab a quick breath. Turning that into rounds for distance purposes, that is 20 to 30 rounds. Anyone can swim, and armor and weight does not play a factor per RAW unless you are encumbered. So, difficult terrain reduces you to 15 ft per round if you do not dash. Which is 300 to 450 ft.. So, dashing would allow you to go down and come back up.

That is fairly big. There are only three rivers in the world deeper than that. Looking at average depth of lakes (not the deepest parts, but the average) puts that on the scale around the top 30. And this is being done by an average person in full armor jumping in and diving.

So, you need either something very deep, or an area that is very long with no places to grab a breath of air. I'm not saying water breathing is never useful, I'm saying that the average DnD character is far more capable underwater than we tend to think, making things which improve that less necessary than we typically think.

Which leads us into the biggest deal of Alter Self. You can Chameleon into anyone and any other race. This is big, but it requires some rather specific things to be impactful.

1 - Disguise Kits can't be enough. I've seen what professional disguise artists can do with time and cleverness. It is stunning. Sure, I doubt you could make a halfling look like an Orc convincingly, but you could make your male halfing look like his own grandmother, to the point where the old lady might think she's looking in a mirror. If the point is simply to "not look like yourself" then a Disguise Kit does this exceptionally well, and doesn' trigger alarms for active magic.

2 - The person using the Alter Self can still pass the deception check. See, Alter Self is wonderful, but it isn't a silver bullet. You can copy the voice, but you need the mannerisms, the private knowledge, the behavior. So you need the person using it to still be able to pass a deception check to pull off the deception, with advantage to be sure, but they need to pass the roll still.

3 - A simpler deception wouldn't get the same results. So, here is where I have to say, sometimes players and DMs try and get too clever. Sure, you could use Alter Self to make yourself appear as the Prince and stroll through the castle to the Royal Chambers and get the McGuffin. Perfectly fine. You could also put on a uniform, and go in as a maid. A maid who won't get stopped by the King, or the Captain of the Guard, one who won't suddenly be in the palace instead of the Luncheon they were scheduled to go to. Ect. Spies throughout history have done the same thing for infiltration. They don't disguise themselves as someone specific who is supposed to be there, they disguise themselves as someone faceless and nameless who is supposed to be there.

So, yes. Alter Self is situational. I'm not saying it is weak, in fact, it is often far more power than you really need to accomplish the goal. It is only necessary in certain situations. Sometimes, you need to look like someone specific, and Alter Self is the right tool for that job. But general intrigue, infiltration, and deception do not need a full on super power to pull off. They just need a bit of planning and a disguise. Maybe. You can do a lot with lying to people as well.

[Anderlith]

Some odd questions:

Tiny turret fits in your hand, so I assume I could just summon it and the. Carry it around like a handgun?

It can also be summoned to and horizontal surface and can essentially stick to it. Could I just put my shield down and summon it into it and walk around with a turret on my shield?
What about onto my shoulder predator style?

So essentially I can have my shield, a turret on each shoulder my rod gun I in one hand and attack 3 times a round with various bonuses and effects?

With all that and the normal artificer stuff I don’t even care if they cast spells.

Mounting them on your shoulders would probably be tricky & up to the DM. Shield would be okay in my book.

I already have a plan for an Artillerist with a Homunculus to have the Homunculus fly around with the cannon strapped to its back

[Misterwhisper]

Pretty much exactly on all of those. You might find a DM who doesn't consider a shield a "horizontal surface" for some reason, but I imagine if you can set your shield on the ground, then the ground is horizontal enough.

As far as carrying the tiny turret as a handgun, yes. Flavor how you like, whether that's a handgun, shoulder cannon, wrist-mounted flamethrower, etc. Keep in mind, this is level 14. You'd be doing a cantrip+d8 damage action, and two turrets as a bonus. If both turrets are damage based, that's 6d8 potential turret damage. Very respectable output.

Note that you can also use spell storing item for 10 casts of Shatter, at 4d8 damage each. 10 foot burst 4d8 damage, plus 6d8 from turrets, up to ten times.

Also built in half cover and magic rod armor and shield

[ImperiousLeader]

Some odd questions:

Tiny turret fits in your hand, so I assume I could just summon it and the. Carry it around like a handgun?

It can also be summoned to and horizontal surface and can essentially stick to it. Could I just put my shield down and summon it into it and walk around with a turret on my shield?
What about onto my shoulder predator style?

So essentially I can have my shield, a turret on each shoulder my rod gun I in one hand and attack 3 times a round with various bonuses and effects?

With all that and the normal artificer stuff I don’t even care if they cast spells.

Pretty much. Artificers are pretty cool. I am a little sad they shrunk the Eldritch Cannon, there was talk of a Ravnica campaign in my playgroup, and I was all set to play an Izzet Goblin Artillerist Artificer, and yes, I was going to ride my Turret.

I'm liking the Artificer a lot. If I had a complaint, it's that they really need another Cantrip or two, it's a tight progression. Or they should get Mending for free.

[Misterwhisper]

Pretty much. Artificers are pretty cool. I am a little sad they shrunk the Eldritch Cannon, there was talk of a Ravnica campaign in my playgroup, and I was all set to play an Izzet Goblin Artillerist Artificer, and yes, I was going to ride my Turret.

I'm liking the Artificer a lot. If I had a complaint, it's that they really need another Cantrip or two, it's a tight progression. Or they should get Mending for free.

Each subclass should have gotten one free can trip.

[stoutstien]

I could definitely get on board with mending for artillerist and battle Smith and an extra floating free cantrip for alchemist.

[Anderlith]

Mending should be a built in cantrip for every Artificer. Without it, it kinda feels like a tax

[stoutstien]

Explosive cannon is actually a nice option for a cannon low on hp.
Solid damage In a large area isn't a bad way to squeeze even more damage out of a slot.
Maybe your DM will let you throw a tiny cannon like a thermal detonator.

[Anderlith]

Explosive cannon is actually a nice option for a cannon low on hp.
Solid damage In a large area isn't a bad way to squeeze even more damage out of a slot.
Maybe your DM will let you throw a tiny cannon like a thermal detonator.

There is no reason to ever have a cannon without legs, as you can still hold a tiny one with legs. You could drop on at the corner of a hallway & have it “charge” up the corridor blasting away & then explode when it gets to the end

[stoutstien]

There is no reason to ever have a cannon without legs, as you can still hold a tiny one with legs. You could drop on at the corner of a hallway & have it “charge” up the corridor blasting away & then explode when it gets to the end

does choosing the cannons appearance cover shapes? a sphere would be an interesting if you needed to roll it into place and pop out legs and turrets when you activate it?

[Misterwhisper]

does choosing the cannons appearance cover shapes? a sphere would be an interesting if you needed to roll it into place and pop out legs and turrets when you activate it?

Did they mention if it can sense things on its own?
Like could I have it walk around a corner and shoot something I can’t see?

[stoutstien]

Did they mention if it can sense things on its own?
Like could I have it walk around a corner and shoot something I can’t see?

From the wording you need eyesight on the target for ballista but the other 2 no. Just need to be within 60 to receive the activation..code... signal...who knows.

[Anderlith]

From the wording you need eyesight on the target for ballista but the other 2 no. Just need to be within 60 to receive the activation..code... signal...who knows.

It’s more of an astral resonant echo. See the “Ath” rune allows for a sub-planar frequency harmonic (these are produced & synchronized through those crystals on top) so that the turret response is tied to my astral aura much like a b@stardized version of astral projection. After that it’s simple physics & a matter of intraplanar polarity maintenance. Why do you think it takes me an hour every day to prep this stuff?

[Garresh]

It’s more of an astral resonant echo. See the “Ath” rune allows for a sub-planar frequency harmonic (these are produced & synchronized through those crystals on top) so that the turret response is tied to my astral aura much like a b@stardized version of astral projection. After that it’s simple physics & a matter of intraplanar polarity maintenance. Why do you think it takes me an hour every day to prep this stuff?

I like you

[Anderlith]

I like you

Thanks, I always like to add nonsense stuff when I roleplay. Like if I play a Cleric I will make up religious stories like Hercules or the Tower of Babel, but appropriate to the god my Cleric serves so like I might tell the tale of “the man who shot the sun” as a cleric of Pelor

[stoutstien]

I've been running some simulations comparing Paladin and artificial by switching them In and out I some of my campain notes. So far they are pretty neck and neck.

What's really interesting is that they complement each other very well.

Flash of genius and aura of protection means a minimum roll of a clutch save is almost a auto pass with a flat +7 to +10. Save DCs are mostly under 15 until CR 8+.



I want to build a bard paladin, monk, and artificer party and run a caster heavy game. What's a saving throw again?

[Garresh]

I've been running some simulations comparing Paladin and artificial by switching them In and out I some of my campain notes. So far they are pretty neck and neck.

What's really interesting is that they complement each other very well.

Flash of genius and aura of protection means a minimum roll of a clutch save is almost a auto pass with a flat +7 to +10. Save DCs are mostly under 15 until CR 8+.



I want to build a bard paladin, monk, and artificer party and run a caster heavy game. What's a saving throw again?

Have you found any interesting observations on Alchemist specifically?

[stoutstien]

Have you found any interesting observations on Alchemist specifically?

Some general notes:
A oath of ancient Paladin has better raw healing capacity between LoH and spells like aura of vitality where the Alchemist has better mitigation and action economy with heals and recovery. They both are about equal on amount of resources spent to keep the party upright.

At low levels resilience is the best EE. On a standard Frontline fighter type it prevents more damage than twice as many of the healing EE. If any other AC boost comes into play like shield of faith of warding bond it's easy to hit the max AC threshold.
*Special note for transformation. If you have a monk in the party this is a solid buff early on.

Later on boldness takes over as the best option. With better control over when you get into combat it's easy to use the shorter time window. As casters with bless have a harder time justifying the concentration cost boldness can take over.
*If the party has more than 1 SS and/or GWM keeping both up pushes the worth of bless up.

It's hard to directly compare EE to the paladins aura. How much the range limit of the aura compared to the flexibility of EE varied on party makeup more than I originally anticipated.

Outside of combat the alchemist wins hand down with rituals, better spells, and spare EE.

So in summary, even the weakest on paper option of the alchemist could hold ground in any party.

[Garresh]

Some general notes:
A oath of ancient Paladin has better raw healing capacity between LoH and spells like aura of vitality where the Alchemist has better mitigation and action economy with heals and recovery. They both are about equal on amount of resources spent to keep the party upright.

At low levels resilience is the best EE. On a standard Frontline fighter type it prevents more damage than twice as many of the healing EE. If any other AC boost comes into play like shield of faith of warding bond it's easy to hit the max AC threshold.
*Special note for transformation. If you have a monk in the party this is a solid buff early on.

Later on boldness takes over as the best option. With better control over when you get into combat it's easy to use the shorter time window. As casters with bless have a harder time justifying the concentration cost boldness can take over.
*If the party has more than 1 SS and/or GWM keeping both up pushes the worth of bless up.

It's hard to directly compare EE to the paladins aura. How much the range limit of the aura compared to the flexibility of EE varied on party makeup more than I originally anticipated.

Outside of combat the alchemist wins hand down with rituals, better spells, and spare EE.

So in summary, even the weakest on paper option of the alchemist could hold ground in any party.

Hm. So do you think there's any tweaks alch needs or is it fine as is?

[Anderlith]

Hm. So do you think there's any tweaks alch needs or is it fine as is?

The mods have shut down my thread talking about it. But the jury is still out. I’d like to see them get some kind of bonus action economy & more uses of a non randomized Elixir

[Garresh]

The mods have shut down my thread talking about it. But the jury is still out. I’d like to see them get some kind of bonus action economy & more uses of a non randomized Elixir

I dunno if it's true here but a lot of forums will punish you if you discuss locks in other threads. Maybe message them?

Anyways yeah I think some bonus action use might be enough for now.

[Anderlith]

Come on now, I’m not bring in baggage from the thread & it’s not like I need more infractions

[WadeWay33]

Do you all think that Archivist is gonna get released in a new book? It was much higher rated than the Alchemist, after all.

And imo it’s the coolest because MYSTICAL AI

[WadeWay33]

Hm. So do you think there's any tweaks alch needs or is it fine as is?

I actually played the alchemist is a play test game yesterday, and it looks a lot worse then it actually plays. The potions give it versatility, and even with another Artificer in the party I didn’t feel overshadowed or like I was falling behind.

EDIT: Grammar

[jaappleton]

Do you all think that Archivist is gonna get released in a new book? It was much higher rated than the Alchemist, after all.

And imo it’s the coolest because MYSTICAL AI

I think the Archivist likely got moved to the Psion they're working on.

[Garresh]

I actually played the alchemist is a play test game yesterday, and it looks a lot worse then it actually plays. The potions give it versatility, and even with another Artificer in the party I didn’t feel overshadowed or like I was falling behind.

EDIT: Grammar

Fuggit. I'm playing one. I like the flavor too much not to.

[Dankus Memakus]

I definitely saw an alchemist in action Saturday and it really isn't bad. I know it looks weaker on paper but the alchemist is by no means a beastmaster or a 4 elements monk. It holds up well in a party.

[stoutstien]

Hm. So do you think there's any tweaks alch needs or is it fine as is?

I would not recommend any tweaks yet. it depends on what comes out as the intended rulings on a few things.

Of all the artificial subclasses, The Alchemist is definitely the most bard like. The power is in the party Dynamics.

They are also the least infusion intensive subclass. where the battle Smith is almost guaranteed to use all their early level infusions on themselves and the artillerist will want at least one of them, the Alchemist has no immediate need.

The alchemist having an open bonus action is also a good thing. They have lots of spells that require it so if they had another cars that use of it it would be more clunky. Grabbing the homunculus at 6 is not a requirement of the alchemist but rather just another option in a subclass all about having options.

[Garfunion]

The problem I see with the Alchemist is the random experimental elixir. While this scenario sounds amusing;

*wizard is dying*
Artificer “here drink this”
Wizard “what is it?”
Artificer “I don’t know”
Wizard “....”

It just isn’t tactically advantageous to use a random experimental elixir until the Alchemist reaches level 9.

Side note: Can’t you cast identify on your experimental elixir or even use your alchemist’s kit to identify the liquid?

There’s also the action economy to think about. Why would a low level monk waste their action to drink a transformation elixir when they could just attack. Why would I administer a healing elixir when I could just cast healing word spell and use my action to attack.

[Garresh]

Someone in another thread suggested just giving them fast hands exclusively for elixirs and allowing them to apply them to others.


Also, RAW you know what your random elixir is when you roll it. No identify required.

[Garfunion]

Also, RAW you know what your random elixir is when you roll it. No identify required.
But do you roll when a creature triggers the effect or do you roll when you create the elixir?

[Garresh]

But do you roll when a creature triggers the effect or do you roll when you create the elixir?

When you create it.

[stoutstien]

When you create it.

I sent a pretty wordy email off asking on clarification on EE as a whole.
Atm it's unclear

[Garresh]

One interesting thing about boldness is that unlike bless you roll once and reuse the number. Makes it a lot more swingy.

[Chaosmancer]

I actually played the alchemist is a play test game yesterday, and it looks a lot worse then it actually plays. The potions give it versatility, and even with another Artificer in the party I didn’t feel overshadowed or like I was falling behind.

EDIT: Grammar


I definitely saw an alchemist in action Saturday and it really isn't bad. I know it looks weaker on paper but the alchemist is by no means a beastmaster or a 4 elements monk. It holds up well in a party.

I'm curious, to both of you, did it seem fine in regards to the Alchemist abilities or to the Artificer abilities?

Because, I can see the Artificer class being powerful enough to hold the subclass up, and the Alchemist is fine except for that level 3 ability.

To me, it is really a question of a) Does Experimental Elixir end up being useful when you can't decide the effect and b) does Experimental Elixir stay useful throughout all levels of the game when the effects never scale.

B I think is a no, because 1d4 + Int healing as an action might be fine at level 3, but by level 6 or 7 it is already becoming a throw away heal between combats just because you have it.

[MeeposFire]

I think the Archivist likely got moved to the Psion they're working on.

Alternatively since we are seeing some UA on psionic sub classes for the base classes perhaps they saved the archivist for a future book so that the artificer would have a new sub class like other classes and if there is one focused on psionics this would be the best one to save for that purpose.

3 initial builds is pretty good and adding a 4th would be great but if you have another book coming soonish then you may want to use 3 of your ideas and save at least one for that future book.

[Warlush]

I mean, now Wizards (of the class not the coast) can have medium armor and CON save proficiency by starting with Artificer. That's gotta be worth something. So now I wanna play a wizard. Which is a first.
Also these guys would be killer in any underdark party. And quite potent against Mind Flayers.

[Pinba77]

Forgive me if someone already mentioned it, but... I've seen several threads on the Web about the artificer SHARING his infused items.

I strongly believe it's a remnant of the Unearthed Arcana version. The text in that version used to say "If the item requires attunement, you can attune yourself to it the instant you infuse the item, or you can forgo attunement so that someone else can attune to the item."

In Eberron, Rising from the Last War (ERftlW), they specifically removed the part about someone else. Now, logically, when someone removes something, it's intentional. Therefore, I believe it's also intentional that infused items CANNOT be shared.

Can anyone confirm OR prove me wrong?

[Contrast]

FYI they generally ask people not to necro older threads here and start new ones if they want to revive an old topic.

I imagine the reason they removed that is it made it unclear if the other person could use the instant attune option.

With no clarification we fall back on the general attunement rules which say that yes they could attune subject to the normal rules.