Feat-less Fighter MD

[ZorroGames]

Inspired by the number of DMs who control their players by not allowing feats, I playfully designed the following Mountain Dwarf Feat-less Fighter:

S 17 (9+2)
D 10
Co 17 (9+2)
I 8
W 14
Ch 8

ASIs
4: +1 S, +1 Co (18, 18)

6: S +2=20

8: +2 Co=20

Several routes, KISS for one possibility I considered.

12: W+2=16

14: W+2=18

16: W+2=20

19: I+2 OR Ch+2 to 10

So, what would you do starting at level 12 with this PC?

And because some will just want to start at level 1, what do you suggest for a MD Fighter without feats?

[CheddarChampion]

Cavalier or Battlemaster. Dueling style, maybe get a warhorse + horse armor and use a lance?

If you start at high levels (12 or so) and expect to go into very high levels, starting with 16/10/16/10/14/10 will let you end up with higher stats overall: +4 Str, +4 Con, +6 Wis for 20/10/20/10/20/10.

Unless the DM handwaves somatic components, EK tank builds will be hard to work with.

Overall though I wouldn't recommend playing a fighter in a featless game at higher levels (like level 12). Barbarian too. In my experience, you get overshadowed.

[ZorroGames]

snip...

Overall though I wouldn't recommend playing a fighter in a featless game at higher levels (like level 12). Barbarian too. In my experience, you get overshadowed.

Well, the whole white room point was to make a Feat-less fighter from 1-20, no?

[Daphne]

Inspired by the number of DMs who control their players by not allowing feats

DM isn't controlling anyone, feats are an optional rule and the player still has full control of what his or her character can do during the session.

[GlenSmash!]

Is UA allowed? I don't think you'll miss feats on a Rune Knight.

[FilthyLucre]

As a DM, we need more feats, not less!

[ZorroGames]

DM isn't controlling anyone, feats are an optional rule and the player still has full control of what his or her character can do during the session.

We disagree based on people’s comments.

[Willie the Duck]

Assuming that the DM has successfully reigned in the 15-minute workday, a fighter is perfectly viable in a featless game. Battlemaster, Cavalier and Samurai work great, Eldritch Knight with a few tweaks (see below). Champion-- well you really need to keep the encounters per long rest up to make it work (maybe with Gritty Realism rest variant), but it to can work.

A few things, though. Most DMs who do featless seem to also do some rules tweaking, and these can help quite a bit. As mentioned above, an eldritch knight need to either get some lax treatment of v,s,m components, do a lot of dropping and picking up of weapons, or wield two handed weapons (despite there not being a lot of other reasons to pick two handed melee weapons without feats). Also, Strength-based classes really suffer after level 5 for not being able to draw two javelins per turn or the like. A house rule on that can really help.

[Trandir]

If you want a fighter in a featless setting I'd suggest this:

As stats go with this instead of the ones proposed

Str 11->13
Dex 10
Con 15->17
Int 15
Wis 12
Cha 8

4th level (wizard) ASI Con 17->18 Int 15->16
8th level (wizard) ASI Int 16->18

Have all the wizard features delayed by 2 levels and enjoy action surge, decent AC, Con save profociency and good HP.



For those that begin at level 1. Sorry for you you'll see some weird levels going on with your adventures.

[ZorroGames]

If you want a fighter in a featless setting I'd suggest this:

As stats go with this instead of the ones proposed

Str 11->13
Dex 10
Con 15->17
Int 15
Wis 12
Cha 8

4th level (wizard) ASI Con 17->18 Int 15->16
8th level (wizard) ASI Int 16->18

Have all the wizard features delayed by 2 levels and enjoy action surge, decent AC, Con save profociency and good HP.



For those that begin at level 1. Sorry for you you'll see some weird levels going on with your adventures.

I would consider that more a Wizard Dipping into fighter or a Wizard multi-class more than a fighter.

It is a good character but hardly a fighter, more an armored Wizard.

[Trandir]

I would consider that more a Wizard Dipping into fighter or a Wizard multi-class more than a fighter.

It is a good character but hardly a fighter, more an armored Wizard.

You are right I king of missed the point of the OP's question.

For the 12th level MD PC I'd take battlemaster as marial archetype to get something to do every turn.

As for beginning at 1st level I'd say go with the wizard with fighter dip it's more fun with mostly spells rather than just press the "I attack button" every turn.

[Daphne]

STR 14 + 2 = 16 (+3)
DEX 10 (0)
CON 14 +2 =16 (+3)
INT 8 (-1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 12 (+1)

Starting proficiencies: Persuasion, Perception, the rest is your choice.

3rd level subclass: Samurai

ASIs
04: +2 STR = 18 (+4)
06: +2 STR = 20 (+5)
08: +2 WIS = 16 (+3)
12: +2 WIS = 18 (+4)
14: +2 WIS = 20 (+5)
16: +2 CON = 18 (+4)
19: +2 CON = 20 (+5)

Samurai gives you proficiency to WIS saves at 7th level, which is essential at Tier 3 and Tier 4. You also get +WIS to Charisma (Persuasion) checks, for a total +12 at 17th level (+6 prof + 1 CHA + 5 WIS).

Starting at 10th level you can use Fighting Spirit at least once every fight, so at this point Samurai comes out ahead of Battle Master imo.

Archery is not as even that good without -5/+10 feats, so going STR isn't a big deal. Both GWF and Dueling are viable.

[Vorpalchicken]

I don't suppose the new UA features are allowed but if they are then a Battle master with Restraining Strike and Unarmed fighting style would be fun. Either grabbing and pummeling with bare hands or with your trusty war hammer.

[djreynolds]

Samurai gives you proficiency to WIS saves at 7th level, which is essential at Tier 3 and Tier 4. You also get +WIS to Charisma (Persuasion) checks, for a total +12 at 17th level (+6 prof + 1 CHA + 5 WIS).

Starting at 10th level you can use Fighting Spirit at least once every fight, so at this point Samurai comes out ahead of Battle Master imo.


I agree.

Samurai will give you wisdom save throw proficiency at 7th level......... that is huge. And you can leave that wisdom at 14-16

But I actually would grab archery style, a 16 in dex plus archery style is equivalent to having a 20 in dex for shooting bows.

Now you can fight basically with any weapon. without feat there is really is no reason to specialize with any combat style, archery is just allowing you to go with a 16 in dex instead of a 20

1st level 16/14/16/10/12/8, take archery style
4th level 18/14/16/10/12/8, +2 strength
6th level 20/14/16/10/12/8 +2 strength
7th level wisdom saves proficiency
8th level 20/16/16/10/12/8 +2 dex now any weapon you grab you can hit with
12th level 20/16/16/10/14/8 +2 wisdom
14th level 20/16/16/10/16/8 +2 wisdom

[Quoz]

A double-scimitar build would be fun to try. Without feats it's probably the strongest weapon choice, gaining both minor action attacks with str damage added and great weapon fighting style to reroll 1s and 2s on your D4. And since it's a 2-handed weapon you can get past all the component problems on an EK.

[Corran]

I was going to say EK, because it can put an otherwise tertiary score (INT) to good use (since you'll have spare ASI's to improve it). But the suggestion of samurai, for gaining wisdom save proficiency in a featless game, won me over.

[opaopajr]

Point Buy, leave STR at 8 (MD raises it to 10). Being a Fighter you gain little benefit of MD's Medium Armor. BUT!, you are a dwarf, so you can ignore Heavy Armor STR penalty. :smalltongue: Save your points and bloat elsewhere.

At this point it depends how you want to play. You could care about DEX fighting... Or you could try to be a tool & skill monkey with major combat resilience. :smallbiggrin:

STR 8 (10), DEX 10, CON 12 (14), INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 14.

Get some chain mail, shield, and whatever else you care about. Protection would be awesome since you can just be a Guard Duty MD. You just Dodge, cover your party squishies, and Protect them if they are targeted. AC 18 at Disadv, offering +2 AC cover to squishies behind you, and Disadv as reaction is... very annoying to deal with. :smalltongue:

Background can be anything, and really takes this MD in interesting directions. I can totally see a Criminal, Soldier, Acolyte, or Sage going on wildly different builds from this Lvl 1. :smallsmile:

I'd probably keep it as a Champion for the simplicity and change of pace.

[bid]

S 17 (9+2)
D 10
Co 17 (9+2)
I 8
W 14
Ch 8
Odd stats are the tool of the Devil, I say!

So, beside starting 16 10 16 10 14 10 I don't have any better plan. You still have 3 ASI after Str20 / Con20, no need to dump stats.

[ZorroGames]

Odd stats are the tool of the Devil, I say!

So, beside starting 16 10 16 10 14 10 I don't have any better plan. You still have 3 ASI after Str20 / Con20, no need to dump stats.

🤯🤪🤣

The whole ego thing of 18 ST and 18 CO at fourth level is at play here, I freely plead guilty to it.