Lifesense: the super long range combatant's best friend?

[Jowgen]

So the Lifesense feat from LM is usually considered a neat but overall lackluster non-living specifc feat that makes it so that, to your vision, living creatures become lightsources with bright illumination radiuses ranging from 60 ft at medium or smaller to 960 ft at collosal.

What caught my attention about this are the rules for seeing distant light sources provided in Underdark:


Complete Darkness: In general, a light source can be spotted (Spot DC 20) at a distance equal to 20 times its radius of illumination, if the area is otherwise in complete darkness. For example, a sunrod can be seen from 600 feet away, provided that nothing obstructs the line of sight. An observer who fails this Spot check automatically spots the light source at half that distance.

Dim Light: In conditions equal to starlight or moonlight, a light source can be spotted (Spot DC 20) at a distance equal to 10 times its radius of illumination. For instance, a sunrod can be seen from, 300 feet away in these conditions. An observer who fails this Spot check automatically spots the light source at half that distance.

Using Distant Illumination: Creatures. outside the illumination of a light source can see into it just fine. An observer who is close enough to spot the light source automatically (10 times the radius of illumination in complete darkness, or half that in dimlight) can make Spot checks as normal to discern creatures or objects in the illuminated area


So on a basic level, outside in the dark of night, Lifesense can let you pinpoint the location of a living thing from 600 ft away (or 300 if you fail a DC 20 spot). Considering that distance is usually a whopping -60 to spot checks, it seems to me that Lifesense -more than any other mode of perception- is ideal for letting you pinpoint potential enemies at long distances.

Not only that, but based on the wording it seems pretty clear that this gives you line of sight to the target, letting you target with sufficiently ranged spells or ranged weapons with sufficient increment; without worry for concealment.

So, should all sniper builds ideally be undead with Lifesense? What other considerations are there to be made when using it for this purpose?

[liquidformat]

I actually find myself wondering how Lifesense interacts with things like ethereal and invisibility. Life-light behaves like regular light and from my understanding of those spells they would make the source invisible but not the light that emanates from it. So then is Lifesense a hard block to ethereal and invisibility for living beings?

[Jack_Simth]

I actually find myself wondering how Lifesense interacts with things like ethereal and invisibility. Life-light behaves like regular light and from my understanding of those spells they would make the source invisible but not the light that emanates from it. So then is Lifesense a hard block to ethereal and invisibility for living beings?

Nope. The Invisibility spell addresses invisible light sources. The light is still there, but the source is still invisible. So such an undead would see a large illuminated area, but not the living creature causing it. It shouldn't be too hard to ID the source square, but the invisible person still gets full concealment.

[liquidformat]

still a nice first step to being able to see invisible without the spell...

[Kelb_Panthera]

I actually find myself wondering how Lifesense interacts with things like ethereal and invisibility. Life-light behaves like regular light and from my understanding of those spells they would make the source invisible but not the light that emanates from it. So then is Lifesense a hard block to ethereal and invisibility for living beings?

Per the invisibility spell description, the light is still visible but its source is not. So you get a big area of illumination and it doesn't take a genius to figure the source is most likely at the center of the area unless it's cone shaped. Being an undead with lifesense, it's a pretty good bet you should aim your attacks there. Likewise if the illuminated area moves at all for normal characters since a moving light source is likely being carried by a creature 95% of the time.

Ethereal, however, won't meaningfully interact with lifesense at all unless the creature has see invisibility up. You gotta remember that when you say a creature is ethereal that what you're actually saying is that they're on the coexistent ethereal plane as opposed to the material plane that most adventuring takes place on. Light only crosses that boundary from material to ethereal but -not- from ethereal to material. Even then, the nature of the ethereal blocks line of sight completely at about 60 feet out because of the fog of ether permeating the whole plane. See invisibility will allow you to spot ethereal creatures from whatever distance but a ghost on the ethereal looking for the light of life won't see jack unless the light from the creatures is radiating into his 60 ft bubble of visibility unless he manifests on the material.

[Zombulian]

This paired with a flight speed and Clairvoyant Sense to follow up on the blips would be a great scouting tactic.

[TheCount]

I always forget if plant count as creatures or not.... I mean, mundane ones, not the ones that eat the woodsmans... But vermin would still count and forest are full of insects.
Heh, now I'm imagining a sniper duel between a living archer in a fores and an undead one from a necropolis/cursed battlefield/hill or cliff side full of mine entrance or caves

[Jack_Simth]

I always forget if plant count as creatures or not.... I mean, mundane ones, not the ones that eat the woodsmans... But vermin would still count and forest are full of insects.
Heh, now I'm imagining a sniper duel between a living archer in a fores and an undead one from a necropolis/cursed battlefield/hill or cliff side full of mine entrance or caves

It's covered in the plant creature type description. No, regular trees, grass, bushes, and so on are not creatures.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's covered in the plant creature type description. No, regular trees, grass, bushes, and so on are not creatures.Unless awakened or animated via animate objects (or possibly animate dead). Or possessed by undead. Or a fiend of possession.

[Anthrowhale]

I always feel bad about undead characters because of Turn Undead vulnerability, but Lifesense on a Maug might make work out well.

[Jowgen]

This (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040914a) rules of the game article sums up the rules on invisibility and light sources pretty well.

The most relevant thing, however, I think is this simple line from the feat itself:


To your eyes, a Medium or smaller creature gives off life force sufficient to provide bright illumination in a 60-foot radius, revealing itself and all features and objects in range to your life-adapted sight.

Add to this that the description of the light source is "roving points of brightness", I think it's rather clear that the effect is like a more powerful version of Faerie Fire, which only has a mere static 20 ft illumination radius but still negates concealment.

So regardless of whether its fluffed by a single bright light right where the heart is, a little cloud of light around that bright core, or lots of little stars circulating through the body, I am personally comfortably in the "negates invisiblity" camp.


What I am more curious about is how far one can modulate ones own lifesense.

Can it, as a feat, be turned on and off?

Normal eyes have pupils to helps us adjust to different brightness levels, so can someone with lifesense consciously dim the ammount of Life-light they perceive (e.g. cut out/distinguish vermin sources from humanoid)?

Failing that, what about making mundane tinted glass for goggles/shades that are designed to filter out/block some kinds of light for personalised use (e.g. only life-light, only life-light sources, etc.)?

[Jack_Simth]

Unless awakened or animated via animate objects (or possibly animate dead). Or possessed by undead. Or a fiend of possession.

At which point, they are no longer "regular" plants, but plants that are altered in some way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I always feel bad about undead characters because of Turn Undead vulnerabilityThat's when you change your type in a way that lets you retain the type benefits of being undead, like the Human Heritage feat.

Also, Lifesense would work well on a construct/undead familiar or a psicrystal.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I always feel bad about undead characters because of Turn Undead vulnerability, but Lifesense on a Maug might make work out well.

As vulnerabilities go, it's not an impressive one. Virtually all undead that are PC suitable creatures have turn resistance. Even the lowly necropolitan has TR +4.

[Anthrowhale]

As vulnerabilities go, it's not an impressive one. Virtually all undead that are PC suitable creatures have turn resistance. Even the lowly necropolitan has TR +4.

If the DM is using stock adversaries, that seems reasonable although a cleric boss certainly remains dangerous.

If the DM customizes adversaries, it's easy to make a same-level adversary that's quite dangerous to a necropolitan. Think about Quickened Empowered Heightened Greater Turning for example.

Aside from Turn Undead itself, there are also effects like sacred item which are substantial undead killers.

[Jowgen]

If the DM is using stock adversaries, that seems reasonable although a cleric boss certainly remains dangerous.

If the DM customizes adversaries, it's easy to make a same-level adversary that's quite dangerous to a necropolitan. Think about Quickened Empowered Heightened Greater Turning for example.

Aside from Turn Undead itself, there are also effects like sacred item which are substantial undead killers.

Ravages come to mind (e.g. 2 hits with Golden Ice have a very respactable chance of taking down over-CRe Nightcralwers), as does the Bone Talisman spell, which can very quickly get riddiculous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501809-One-Turn-man-bone-talisman-turn-undead-optimization).

As for non-creature-spectific blanket defenses, Lifeward is afaik the only thing that does it; being a 4th level cleric abjuration spell that lasts minutes/level.

[liquidformat]

I could see a hordeficer taking advantage of lifesense on something like a clockwork mender to be used as a combination of SA scout.

[RatElemental]

If the DM is using stock adversaries, that seems reasonable although a cleric boss certainly remains dangerous.

If the DM customizes adversaries, it's easy to make a same-level adversary that's quite dangerous to a necropolitan. Think about Quickened Empowered Heightened Greater Turning for example.

Aside from Turn Undead itself, there are also effects like sacred item which are substantial undead killers.

I wasn't aware you could use metamagic on turning attempts.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If the DM is using stock adversaries, that seems reasonable although a cleric boss certainly remains dangerous.

If the DM customizes adversaries, it's easy to make a same-level adversary that's quite dangerous to a necropolitan. Think about Quickened Empowered Heightened Greater Turning for example.

Aside from Turn Undead itself, there are also effects like sacred item which are substantial undead killers.

Bosses are supposed to be a serious threat to PCs. Unless it's a sun domain cleric, being driven to flee or cower is probably an appropriate threat.

As for optimizing to nuke it, A GM can do that to pretty much anything.


Ravages come to mind (e.g. 2 hits with Golden Ice have a very respactable chance of taking down over-CRe Nightcralwers), as does the Bone Talisman spell, which can very quickly get riddiculous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501809-One-Turn-man-bone-talisman-turn-undead-optimization).

Bone talisman was something I was unaware of and I can see how that could become a serious threat if the GM wants to build for it and nuke you with a druid instead of a cleric but it's still the GM building to kill you, specifically.

Ravages can be a pain but they -are- dependent on you being evil and supernatural besides.


As for non-creature-spectific blanket defenses, Lifeward is afaik the only thing that does it; being a 4th level cleric abjuration spell that lasts minutes/level.

I could see making a custom magic item deal out of that. Maybe a negative version of the soulfire or deathward armor abilities.

[Anthrowhale]

Bosses are supposed to be a serious threat to PCs. Unless it's a sun domain cleric, being driven to flee or cower is probably an appropriate threat.
Sure.


As for optimizing to nuke it, A GM can do that to pretty much anything.
The degree of ease matters.

When an NPC of the same level with minor and natural customizations can easily defeat, it seems a bit brittle. Consider a Cleric using Surge of Fortune + Turn Undead or minions using Sacred Item nets.

The Bone Talisman spell Jowgen points out really just relies on caster level to be dangerous, which is quite natural to optimize for. The spell itself is esoteric, but a Druid that's aware of it might very well take it to cover a weakness against undead. At that point, the Necropolitan is just collateral damage.


I wasn't aware you could use metamagic on turning attempts.

You can't---heighten turning, empower turning, and quickened turning are feats. Greater Turning is granted by the sun domain or certain turning-focused prestige classes.

[Anthrowhale]

Ravages come to mind
I hadn't realized that ravages deal ability damage to otherwise-immune undead. That's a nice trick.

As for non-creature-spectific blanket defenses, Lifeward is afaik the only thing that does it; being a 4th level cleric abjuration spell that lasts minutes/level.
Life Ward is extremely helpful here.

[Crake]

But vermin would still count and forest are full of insects.

Vermin, critters, animal life.... I once had a player play a vampire with lifesense, and yeah, the forest was basically just completely illuminated to the character. There's no snipering happening, because you're basically just using the normal, daylight spot checks, because everything's completely illuminated for you.

The fact that anything medium or smaller produces a full 60ft radius light source makes it basically impossible.

[Jowgen]

Vermin, critters, animal life.... I once had a player play a vampire with lifesense, and yeah, the forest was basically just completely illuminated to the character. There's no snipering happening, because you're basically just using the normal, daylight spot checks, because everything's completely illuminated for you.

The fact that anything medium or smaller produces a full 60ft radius light source makes it basically impossible.

While nerfing this kinda thing was of course your perrogative at your table, I don't think that reading quite followed the RAW or the RAI of the feat.

A living creature doesn't only make its surroundings bright, it "gives of lifeforce" as to appear as "roving points of brightness", which most importantly results in it "revealing itself".

A creature glowing as brightly as Faerie Fire (20 ft illumination) is already bright enough to be perfectly distinguishable from its surroundings in bright light, and Lifesense light is an order of magnitude brighter, as if staring right into a Bullseye lantern (60 ft).

There is no mention of bright ambient conditions making this effect any less observable, so even in bright conditions any given living creature remains clearly highlighted in relation to its surroundings (living or otherwise).

So a forest might appear entirely lit up with lifesight, but it would remain dotted with the clearly distinguishable, brightly shining shapes of all the living things; not just appear as a regular forest as you appear to have ruled.

Some ad-hoc Spot checks might be warranted for the purpose of discerning humanoid shapes from clusters of vermins or whatever; but essentially negating the feat by just having regular daylight spotchecks take place seems excessive to me personally.



As for sniping long distance by taking advantage of the seeing distant light rules, all that is required is that you're within the specified range while yourself being in an area of darkness or shadowy illumination.

At night, flying 60 ft above ground level would suffice as to keep you out of any bright illumination ranges. In the daytime (or on the positive energy plane or whatever), something like casting Darkness and Ebon Eyes on yourself to give yourself a little dark screen through which to view the various distant light sources/targets should do as well.

[Crake]

While nerfing this kinda thing was of course your perrogative at your table, I don't think that reading quite followed the RAW or the RAI of the feat.

A living creature doesn't only make its surroundings bright, it "gives of lifeforce" as to appear as "roving points of brightness", which most importantly results in it "revealing itself".

A creature glowing as brightly as Faerie Fire (20 ft illumination) is already bright enough to be perfectly distinguishable from its surroundings in bright light, and Lifesense light is an order of magnitude brighter, as if staring right into a Bullseye lantern (60 ft).

There is no mention of bright ambient conditions making this effect any less observable, so even in bright conditions any given living creature remains clearly highlighted in relation to its surroundings (living or otherwise).

So a forest might appear entirely lit up with lifesight, but it would remain dotted with the clearly distinguishable, brightly shining shapes of all the living things; not just appear as a regular forest as you appear to have ruled.

Some ad-hoc Spot checks might be warranted for the purpose of discerning humanoid shapes from clusters of vermins or whatever; but essentially negating the feat by just having regular daylight spotchecks take place seems excessive to me personally.



As for sniping long distance by taking advantage of the seeing distant light rules, all that is required is that you're within the specified range while yourself being in an area of darkness or shadowy illumination.

At night, flying 60 ft above ground level would suffice as to keep you out of any bright illumination ranges. In the daytime (or on the positive energy plane or whatever), something like casting Darkness and Ebon Eyes on yourself to give yourself a little dark screen through which to view the various distant light sources/targets should do as well.

My point was more that spotting a singular light source in the distance in the dark is far easier than spotting one among many. Plus, there's no immediate difference between the light of a squirrel, and the light of a human, and unless you're actively investigating every single light source, you may as well just treat it as global illumination, because sure, you know that there's something living behind that tree, but it could be a squirrel, and there's also something behind that tree, and that tree, and that other tree. At that point, it's not reasonable to treat every light source with the same scrutiny that you would treat a single real light source that you spot in the distance in the dark.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

My point was more that spotting a singular light source in the distance in the dark is far easier than spotting one among many. Plus, there's no immediate difference between the light of a squirrel, and the light of a human, and unless you're actively investigating every single light source, you may as well just treat it as global illumination, because sure, you know that there's something living behind that tree, but it could be a squirrel, and there's also something behind that tree, and that tree, and that other tree. At that point, it's not reasonable to treat every light source with the same scrutiny that you would treat a single real light source that you spot in the distance in the dark.This is why you pair Life Sense with Mindsight. Do note that you can, at that point, instinctively tell which Int scores go with which light sources. So unless all of the squirrels are awakened (or are Mastered by a Squirrel Girl expy)...

[Crake]

This is why you pair Life Sense with Mindsight. Do note that you can, at that point, instinctively tell which Int scores go with which light sources. So unless all of the squirrels are awakened (or are Mastered by a Squirrel Girl expy)...

Yeah, but mindsight only goes out to your telepathy range, so it won't help with sniping in this case unless you have some way to get an absurd telepathy range, and... well, let's be fair, do you REALLY need lifesense with mindsight? If you've got something pinpointed with mindsight, you're pretty much already set.

[Darg]

In addition to any normal light that might be present, your surroundings are illuminated by roving points of brightness created by living creatures. To your eyes, a Medium or smaller creature gives off life force sufficient to provide bright illumination in a 60-foot radius, revealing itself and all features and objects in range to your life-adapted sight. This life-light behaves like regular light--you can't see into solid objects, or past solid walls. A Large creature gives off life-light in a 120-foot radius, and the radius doubles again for each additional size category larger than Medium, up to a maximum radius of 960 feet for a Colossal creature.

Seems that you need a DC 20 spot check to "spot" the source of the illumination at a far distance within dark and dim light. This tells you where the source is, not what it is (You can see stars, but you can't see that they are big balls of burning gas). This means you still need to make a spot check to know what you are looking at. Because it works like regular light, solid objects prevent you from seeing the source of light and possibly fully negating the light source.

This being said, if you already know that what you are seeing is an enemy feel free to fire an arrow at it, doesn't mean you won't hit a hidden branch in the darkness.

[Jowgen]

My point was more that spotting a singular light source in the distance in the dark is far easier than spotting one among many. Plus, there's no immediate difference between the light of a squirrel, and the light of a human, and unless you're actively investigating every single light source, you may as well just treat it as global illumination, because sure, you know that there's something living behind that tree, but it could be a squirrel, and there's also something behind that tree, and that tree, and that other tree. At that point, it's not reasonable to treat every light source with the same scrutiny that you would treat a single real light source that you spot in the distance in the dark.

I will grant that the feat is woefully unspecific when it comes to the degree of distinguishability of medium to smaller creatures.

The shape and surface area of medium to smaller creatures obviously varies massively, so in order for them all to produce the same radius of illumination their individual brightness levels should correlate inversely to compensate (i.e. an ant would be a real small but real bright while a human would be much dimmer but gives of the same ammount of light overall). But that in no way fits the whole idea of size correlating with brightness... so no idea atm how to reconcile that one.

What I think we can assume safely though is that the life-light would be perceived as a different colour than normal light, as its a naturally occuring type of radiation outside the normally visible specturm. So basically the Terry Pratchett idea of the colour of magic.

Now when we're dealing with any degree of cover that hides or partially obscrues the shape of something, then yeah then there'd be difficulty identifying a spotted target as humanoid, as per the usual rules. Not at all saying that there are no conditions where a spot check would be required at all.

My point is that even in a bustling forest scenario, living creatures all basically being highlighted in a specific unnatural colour drasitically reduces the ammount of work you have to do to spot a given thing within line of sight.

Imagine playing paintball in broad daylight against a team in camo suits or even regular wear on one hand, to playing against a buch of people wearing LED studded suits. Sure, having a metric load of christmas light drapped everywhere would makes it less trivial to pick them out, but they're still going to be much easier to pick out in comparison (especially if they're moving).


Seems that you need a DC 20 spot check to "spot" the source of the illumination at a far distance within dark and dim light. This tells you where the source is, not what it is (You can see stars, but you can't see that they are big balls of burning gas). This means you still need to make a spot check to know what you are looking at. Because it works like regular light, solid objects prevent you from seeing the source of light and possibly fully negating the light source.

This being said, if you already know that what you are seeing is an enemy feel free to fire an arrow at it, doesn't mean you won't hit a hidden branch in the darkness.

Well at half the given max spot distance, you do spot automatically but yeah.

I more see the advantage of lifesense in establishing line of sight for (long range) spells (not to mention never messing up with mistargeting living-creature-only spells). In any case though, if you're in the business of fighting long range, one would assume you'd have invested in some means to double check that the distant target you see is the right one. That might be a divination spell of choice, or even a lowly spyglass.

For specific assasinations, you'd know the area your target will be in, you stake it out, pick up a group of humanoids moving in with Lifesense, use spyglass or whatever to confirm which one the target is, and can then start pelting it long range without having to worry about line of sight breaking unless it gets to cover.

Or if you're attacking an evil stronghold, you can easily spot the sentries from 500 ft away and snipe them off 1 by 1 without anyone being the wiser if your attacks are strong enough. And you're very unlikely to overlook any, considering.

Outside of actual sniping, there is a bunch of other utility to be had as well.

If you're stealthing into a mansion, avoiding guards becomes much easier when they're all giving off a very specific glow you can spot coming out from around the corner. Or if you see that same light coming out from under a door, you'll know that room isn't empty (though it would be real embarrasing if you went the long way only to find it was just a rat). Never suddenly be caught in an ambush in the treasure room again (sans Undead or Construct setups of course)

And lets not forget the benefit against illusions. Lifesense should easily trump Displacement, as should it any other illusion trying to make you think that there is a living enemy in front of you when there isn't.

EDIT: branch in the darkness obstructing your shot to a distant target would be a cover bonus to AC. I don't see many situtions where you'd have a miss chance, though that's what Seeking is for.

[Crake]

Imagine playing paintball in broad daylight against a team in camo suits or even regular wear on one hand, to playing against a buch of people wearing LED studded suits. Sure, having a metric load of christmas light drapped everywhere would makes it less trivial to pick them out, but they're still going to be much easier to pick out in comparison (especially if they're moving).\

I think a better analogy would be playing paintball in the dark against people wearing a bunch of LED studded suits, while also having strapped LEDs to a whole bunch of critters like birds, and squirrels, and rabbits etc. All the random lights would be so distracting that it would be hard to really distinguish the difference between a foe and a harmless critter, and, well, depending on the density of life, it may get to the point where the light sources are beginning to drown each other out.