Dragonmark (sub)races - missing something?

[Waazraath]

Is it me or are these obscenely overpowered? Especially the 'extra spells'; this in itself is very, very powerful. These are strong spell lists, with formerly (rather) unique spells like Armor of Agathys (moon druids or wizards!), Counterspell (for Druids or Clerics), that can be added now without any effort. Even more important, it allows casters to easly add spells outside their niche, greatly improving their versatility.

And on top of this spell list, these subclasses add other good abilities! The "spells of the mark" seem like an extra - logical given that martial characters don't benefit from it at all - but this is all the more a sign of the disbalance in design (like the Ravnica backgrounds were).

Or, as asked in the title, am I missing something?

[HappyDaze]

Or, as asked in the title, am I missing something?

The setting baggage that comes with playing said characters in Eberron and the fact that such characters are likely not appropriate outside of Eberron.

[Waazraath]

The setting baggage that comes with playing said characters in Eberron and the fact that such characters are likely not appropriate outside of Eberron.

But even then, this makes casters much more stronger and versatile, while it does nothing for classes without the spellcasting feature.

[FilthyLucre]

But even then, this makes casters much more stronger and versatile, while it does nothing for classes without the spellcasting feature.
lol have you not read GMGtR? There are 10 backgrounds that add 2 spells of each level up to 5th to your spell list regardless of your spell casting class - including cantrips.

[HappyDaze]

But even then, this makes casters much more stronger and versatile, while it does nothing for classes without the spellcasting feature.

Play Dragonmarks, then play the setting. The real power in Dragonmarks is in the Houses, not in a few added spells.

[RifleAvenger]

But even then, this makes casters much more stronger and versatile, while it does nothing for classes without the spellcasting feature.If you expect anything else from books meant to detail the high magic of a Magic the Gathering setting, or the wide magic of Eberron, then I don't know what to say. In worlds where magic is more powerful and/or prominent, those without it are inevitably going to fall behind without a competing X-factor.

3e Eberron had dragonmarks grant spell like abilities/innate magic. You could run the spells granted by dragonmarks that way in 5e, letting noncasters obtain limited/rest use of these spells.

[Chrizzt]

If you expect anything else from books meant to detail the high magic of a Magic the Gathering setting, or the wide magic of Eberron, then I don't know what to say. In worlds where magic is more powerful and/or prominent, those without it are inevitably going to fall behind without a competing X-factor.

3e Eberron had dragonmarks grant spell like abilities/innate magic. You could run the spells granted by dragonmarks that way in 5e, letting noncasters obtain limited/rest use of these spells.

Which stresses the difficulties in transferring crunch stuff into other settings, at least if they are less generic (e.g. Ravnica and Eberron).

[Dork_Forge]

You're not really missing anything, it's out of design for 5e and is some serious power creep. The subraces stand on their own as strong caster options, the added spells are just unnecessary and over the top regardless of setting.

[RifleAvenger]

Which stresses the difficulties in transferring crunch stuff into other settings, at least if they are less generic (e.g. Ravnica and Eberron).Also the issue of trying to present D&D as a generic engine for fantasy when it is loaded with setting specific assumptions.

Ravnica shouldn't be using Vancian casting, gods/angels/demons are just sentient manifestations of their formative mana types, there's no real divine/arcane distinction to magic, the 8 schools of D&D magic shouldn't be a thing, and even new-walkers, imo, should be something more than high level characters that can Planeswalk.

Yet we still have the cleric, a channeler of divinity, as a recommended class for several guilds. Sure, Ilharg and the world soul and a bunch of angels and demons are running around, but at the core their magic works no differently from one another aside from color. A magic using priest in MtG is only different from a secular caster of the same colors in their choice of aesthetic and maybe delusion about the nature of their powers.

MtG deserves its own system, but WotC won't pour a lot of money and effort into creating a direct competitor for another of their products.

[Chrizzt]

You're not really missing anything, it's out of design for 5e and is some serious power creep. The subraces stand on their own as strong caster options, the added spells are just unnecessary and over the top regardless of setting.

Which reminds me of the latter days of 3.5, when I had the impression that the developers were only half-assedly trying to balance things out (Book of Exalted Deeds, Complete Mage, ...) and were, perhaps, already looking with an eye towards 4e and towards squeezing 3.5 out for a quicker buck.. Hope 5e is not already that far!

[DarknessEternal]

You're not really missing anything, it's out of design for 5e and is some serious power creep. The subraces stand on their own as strong caster options, the added spells are just unnecessary and over the top regardless of setting.

Eberron is not greyhawk or forgotten realms where “gods” are merely 15 th or so level.

Your statements conclude you are not familiar with the setting even slightly.

[Dork_Forge]

Eberron is not greyhawk or forgotten realms where “gods” are merely 15 th or so level.

Your statements conclude you are not familiar with the setting even slightly.

I'm familiar with it, it's wide magic, not high. Full spell casters (especially ones of higher level) are still not common and it's essentially a diffusion of cantrip level magic and common level magic items.

Regardless of the setting there is still no excuse for breaking established design with such ridiculous and unnecessary power creep.

The marks have adjusted stats, intuition die, a unique ability and what amounts to limited spell casting abilities (some of which break level restriction like the Mark of Passage). So what does the additional spells add? They're not necessary, no one asked for them and they skew the races towards casters unnecessarily.

If you still think my opinion is somehow due to lack of knowledge of Eberron, then please correct me citing appropriate text from Rising from the Last War.

[stoutstien]

V human, half elf, changeling (+3 Cha), and slew of other races will still be more popular besides corner cases.

[Evaar]

I don't see the big deal.

Take a look at which marks get which spells, and then what their bonus stats are.

In general, the bonus spells are things you'd probably get anyway, or they're flavorful but not that great.

The biggest deal I can find is Mark of the Sentinel getting a bonus to Wisdom and Counterspell - okay so they can be an effective Cleric or Druid with a good Counterspell, that's pretty nice. Is it gamebreaking? Would I rather have access to Counterspell or a feat? I'd rather have a feat, but YMMV.

Outside of that I guess the biggest deal is Mark of Warding with access to Armor of Agathys with an Intelligence bump. That makes for a nice trick for an Abjurer Wizard. Is it gamebreaking? No. It's a good option, but it's not that big of a deal. And you've picked a class that, if I recall correctly, already has every single other spell on that list. I guess you could go Artificer as well, but similarly I would say this is not gamebreaking. It's fine.

Mark of Shadow gets Pass Without Trace, that'll be nice. Passing stealth checks is a good thing. Will it break the game? If the players passing a stealth check breaks your game then you're letting them do too much with stealth.

Mark of Shadow also gives Greater Invisibility, which I think Warlocks don't get. But if you're a Warlock casting a 4th level spell to get advantage and impose disadvantage, why wouldn't you just cast Shadow of Moil instead? Unless you're somehow a support Warlock who's casting it on someone else, but now I think we've clearly strayed from the realm of what one can reasonably call overpowered.

What other specific examples do you have of overpowered combinations? From all this, I see one that's of possible concern. Everything else is either a situational or bad spell, something they'd probably already have access to (given their stat bonuses and what spellcasting classes those would likely push them toward). Am I the one that's missing something?

[stoutstien]

I don't see the big deal.

Take a look at which marks get which spells, and then what their bonus stats are.

In general, the bonus spells are things you'd probably get anyway, or they're flavorful but not that great.

The biggest deal I can find is Mark of the Sentinel getting a bonus to Wisdom and Counterspell - okay so they can be an effective Cleric or Druid with a good Counterspell, that's pretty nice. Is it gamebreaking? Would I rather have access to Counterspell or a feat? I'd rather have a feat, but YMMV.

Outside of that I guess the biggest deal is Mark of Warding with access to Armor of Agathys with an Intelligence bump. That makes for a nice trick for an Abjurer Wizard. Is it gamebreaking? No. It's a good option, but it's not that big of a deal. And you've picked a class that, if I recall correctly, already has every single other spell on that list. I guess you could go Artificer as well, but similarly I would say this is not gamebreaking. It's fine.

Mark of Shadow gets Pass Without Trace, that'll be nice. Passing stealth checks is a good thing. Will it break the game? If the players passing a stealth check breaks your game then you're letting them do too much with stealth.

Mark of Shadow also gives Greater Invisibility, which I think Warlocks don't get. But if you're a Warlock casting a 4th level spell to get advantage and impose disadvantage, why wouldn't you just cast Shadow of Moil instead? Unless you're somehow a support Warlock who's casting it on someone else, but now I think we've clearly strayed from the realm of what one can reasonably call overpowered.

What other specific examples do you have of overpowered combinations? From all this, I see one that's of possible concern. Everything else is either a situational or bad spell, something they'd probably already have access to (given their stat bonuses and what spellcasting classes those would likely push them toward). Am I the one that's missing something?

The one that made me go whoa was the warding dwarf moon druid.
Mage armor, AoA, and knock.

[Arkhios]

Spells added to a spell list ≠ Spells always known.

That's a big difference. Even if you can choose to learn/prepare those spells, they count against your normal limits.

Picking one of those spells means that some other spell is going to be left out.

[Waazraath]

lol have you not read GMGtR? There are 10 backgrounds that add 2 spells of each level up to 5th to your spell list regardless of your spell casting class - including cantrips.

Lol have you not read the original post where I explicitly mention Ravnica ;-)


Play Dragonmarks, then play the setting. The real power in Dragonmarks is in the Houses, not in a few added spells.

If you expect anything else from books meant to detail the high magic of a Magic the Gathering setting, or the wide magic of Eberron, then I don't know what to say. In worlds where magic is more powerful and/or prominent, those without it are inevitably going to fall behind without a competing X-factor.

3e Eberron had dragonmarks grant spell like abilities/innate magic. You could run the spells granted by dragonmarks that way in 5e, letting noncasters obtain limited/rest use of these spells.

But also a new setting needs to be consistant and internally balanced. "A few added spells" are a helluvalot of a power increase. I'll try to write down my objections a bit more systematicly:

1) 5e casters are limited to certain niches and areas where they can shine. A wizard will never be a great healer. A bard will never be great in dealing direct damage, even with magical secrets, compared to specialized casters. Handing out something like 10 extra spells known breaks this. It's not for naught that magical secrets is such a strong ability. Thing about wizards with strong healing, or clerics with a plethora of teleportation spells, or divine casters with counterspell. The "caster that could do everything" really does't need to return.

2) spells are balanced against other class features. Handing out spells known like candy also breaks this. The easiest expample is the moon druid, the druid spell list is balanced carefully not to make it possible to buff the combat forms to high heavens. There are few self buffs, and those that exist aren't that hot and require concentration (like barkskin). A Warding moon druid wildshaped into a combat form with both mage armor and armor of agathys is much stronger than a regular one.

3) some spells are part of half caster's lists only: like Elemental Weapon, and the healing aura spells of the paladin. With dragonmarks, any full class can nick them. It also can make them much stronger: elemental weapon +3/+3d4 use was formerly only possible with a bard spending magical secrets, or multiclass. Now any class can use it. Even if it does't allow game breaking combo's, it's not good if unique class features can be grabbed by other classes without any significant investment.

4) this is a racial feature that adds (potentially a lot) of power to certain classes and none to others. That's abyssmal balancing.


Which reminds me of the latter days of 3.5, when I had the impression that the developers were only half-assedly trying to balance things out (Book of Exalted Deeds, Complete Mage, ...) and were, perhaps, already looking with an eye towards 4e and towards squeezing 3.5 out for a quicker buck.. Hope 5e is not already that far!

I'm hoping with you. Then again, late 3.5 also had neatly balanced new systems like book of 9 swords, soulbinding, and incarnum. And if you'd replace all PHB wizards druids and sorcerers with duskblades, warlocks warmages and beguilers that also would be a big boon to balance. But I digress.


Spells added to a spell list ≠ Spells always known.

That's a big difference. Even if you can choose to learn/prepare those spells, they count against your normal limits.

Picking one of those spells means that some other spell is going to be left out.

Depends a bit of the class of course. But in general, casters have plenty of spells prepared to have room for a few extra good one. My Cleric would always trade one of his several buffs or his 'just in case utility' for counterspell or misty step - they are just too good to pass up. (depending on the party composistion and the campaign, of course - nothing is absolute).

[HappyDaze]

Lol have you not read the original post where I explicitly mention Ravnica ;-)




But also a new setting needs to be consistant and internally balanced. "A few added spells" are a helluvalot of a power increase. I'll try to write down my objections a bit more systematicly:

1) 5e casters are limited to certain niches and areas where they can shine. A wizard will never be a great healer. A bard will never be great in dealing direct damage, even with magical secrets, compared to specialized casters. Handing out something like 10 extra spells known breaks this. It's not for naught that magical secrets is such a strong ability. Thing about wizards with strong healing, or clerics with a plethora of teleportation spells, or divine casters with counterspell. The "caster that could do everything" really does't need to ret

2) spells are balanced against other class features. Handing out spells known like candy also breaks this. The easiest expample is the moon druid, the druid spell list is balanced carefully not to make it possible to buff the combat forms to high heavens. There are few self buffs, and those that exist aren't that hot and require concentration (like barkskin). A Warding moon druid wildshaped into a combat form with both mage armor and armor of agathys is much stronger than a regular one.

3) some spells are part of half caster's lists only: like Elemental Weapon, and the healing aura spells of the paladin. With dragonmarks, any full class can nick them. It also can make them much stronger: elemental weapon +3/+3d4 use was formerly only possible with a bard spending magical secrets, or multiclass. Now any class can use it. Even if it does't allow game breaking combo's, it's not good if unique class features can be grabbed by other classes without any significant investment.

4) this is a racial feature that adds (potentially a lot) of power to certain classes and none to others. That's abyssmal balancing.



I'm hoping with you. Then again, late 3.5 also had neatly balanced new systems like book of 9 swords, soulbinding, and incarnum. And if you'd replace all PHB wizards druids and sorcerers with duskblades, warlocks warmages and beguilers that also would be a big boon to balance. But I digress.



Depends a bit of the class of course. But in general, casters have plenty of spells prepared to have room for a few extra good one. My Cleric would always trade one of his several buffs or his 'just in case utility' for counterspell or misty step - they are just too good to pass up. (depending on the party composistion and the campaign, of course - nothing is absolute).

They do not add 10 spells known. They give an extra spell or two in the same way as the Magic Initiate feat. Then they add spells to your spell list. For Artificers, Clerics, Druids, and Paladins, this is an automatic gain, but for the rest (Arcane Tricksters, Bards, Eldritch Knights, Rangers, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards) it is only a potential gain because they are still limited by class on spells known.

[Waazraath]

They do not add 10 spells known. They give an extra spell or two in the same way as the Magic Initiate feat. Then they add spells to your spell list. For Artificers, Clerics, Druids, and Paladins, this is an automatic gain, but for the rest (Arcane Tricksters, Bards, Eldritch Knights, Rangers, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards) it is only a potential gain because they are still limited by class on spells known.

True of course, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. For a wizard, this is less of an issue, cause their class mechanic is designed to learn new spells at very little cost.

But this doen't make any of the problems mentioned above go away.

[Ravinsild]

Meanwhile I have no idea what a dragon mark or a house is, but boy howdy am I excited about Warforged, Shifters and the new Orc! That new Orc is sweet! I still think it's possible Half-orc is stronger, but I just love me some good old fashioned plain orc orc. :) So glad they improved them! New skills and no more intellect negative!

I love Shifters because they're like mini werewolfs and stuff, and Warforged are just dope. Heck I'm excited for Changlings so I can be a dude, pretending to be a dude disguised as another dude!

I looked at the variant dragonmark houses or w/e and they're like all 'umies and boring (to me) races that I'd probably never play.

[DragonSorcererX]

I feel like the extra spells should be reserved to Greater Dragonmarks and Siberys Dragonmarks.

I will still use the Keith Baker versions of the dragonmarks from Wayfinder's Guide and Morgrave Miscellany instead of these.

[Daphne]

Is it me or are these obscenely overpowered?

It isn't you, they are busted.

[stoutstien]

It isn't you, they are busted.
I really don't see it and I'm an avid for of homogenizing spell lists. The healing halflings and warding dwarf for a few builds are probably a tad over the norm but the others?
Nothing here as bad as pureblood yuan-ti.

[Rukelnikov]

Eberron is not greyhawk or forgotten realms where “gods” are merely 15 th or so level.

Your statements conclude you are not familiar with the setting even slightly.

And yours conclude you are not familiar with GW or FR.

The lowest level deity I can remember is lvl 40, with most greater deities being between lvl 50-60

In fact, the truly powerful MORTALS in FR are or were lvl 40+ (i.e: Karsus, Ioulam, Srinshee, pre-godhood Azuth, etc)

[Evaar]

I'm seeing lots of people saying "Yup busted" without actually providing any evidence or analysis.

So I'll concede: Mark of Warding Moon Druid is probably just better. You sacrifice a Wisdom bump but that won't be that important. I strongly doubt it's better than a sorcadin, but it's probably better than most other Moon Druids.
Mark of Sentinel Druid/Cleric is a good pick for Counterspell. I'm unconvinced that it's the single best choice for a Cleric or Druid, but it's a very strong choice. It is okay for strong choices to exist.

So setting aside the Mark of Warding Moon Druid, what else is actually "busted?"

[stoutstien]

I'm seeing lots of people saying "Yup busted" without actually providing any evidence or analysis.

So I'll concede: Mark of Warding Moon Druid is probably just better. You sacrifice a Wisdom bump but that won't be that important. I strongly doubt it's better than a sorcadin, but it's probably better than most other Moon Druids.
Mark of Sentinel Druid/Cleric is a good pick for Counterspell. I'm unconvinced that it's the single best choice for a Cleric or Druid, but it's a very strong choice. It is okay for strong choices to exist.

So setting aside the Mark of Warding Moon Druid, what else is actually "busted?"

Mark of warding abjuration wizard is probably equal with deep gnome. Trading practically neverending Ward for AoA for a ton of no action damage. Niche but something.

Mark of healing is edging on the cusp of too strong for people that like healing. Healing isn't that great in general but all the best spells on the halfling chassis and a Wis bump is close to best option for a lot of builds.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm seeing lots of people saying "Yup busted" without actually providing any evidence or analysis.

So I'll concede: Mark of Warding Moon Druid is probably just better. You sacrifice a Wisdom bump but that won't be that important. I strongly doubt it's better than a sorcadin, but it's probably better than most other Moon Druids.
Mark of Sentinel Druid/Cleric is a good pick for Counterspell. I'm unconvinced that it's the single best choice for a Cleric or Druid, but it's a very strong choice. It is okay for strong choices to exist.

So setting aside the Mark of Warding Moon Druid, what else is actually "busted?"

Besides the added spells being unbalanced, unnecessary and out of design, the spell casting abilities are also a bit all over the place. You can cast Misty Step at 1st level for free, same with Magic Weapon oh and for some reason it also doesn't require concentration cast this way. There's no real reason why those spells aren't level gated like the other marks (and other examples of racial casting in 5e) other than "well it's the only leveled spell they get."

A Fighter/Abjurer upcasting AoA before going into melee with upcasted Shadow Blade also comes to mind as a little ridiculous.

[Evaar]

Besides the added spells being unbalanced, unnecessary and out of design, the spell casting abilities are also a bit all over the place. You can cast Misty Step at 1st level for free, same with Magic Weapon oh and for some reason it also doesn't require concentration cast this way. There's no real reason why those spells aren't level gated like the other marks (and other examples of racial casting in 5e) other than "well it's the only leveled spell they get."

A Fighter/Abjurer upcasting AoA before going into melee with upcasted Shadow Blade also comes to mind as a little ridiculous.

Eladrin and Shadar Kai can cast Misty Step at 1st level for free, and Shadar Kai get damage resistance on top of it. It's not like people were up in arms about Shadar Kai being overtuned. Hell, Mark of Passage is almost directly analogous to some Elf options. +2 dex and +1 floating stat, 35 speed, Misty Step, bonus to Acrobatics, and an option to learn some mobility/travel spells in exchange for Fey Ancestry, Trance, the Misty Step riders offered by Eladrin/ShadarKai, extra stealth options, extra cantrip, weapon training, and whatever else I'm forgetting. I really don't see a case for calling Mark of Passage broken when Elves exist.

Are we really worried about an hour long Magic Weapon spell? You can only cast this on non-magical weapons, and I'm sure it'll come in handy at low levels, but I have a hard time believing we're ready to declare a whole race option "broken" over access to Magic Weapon for 1 hour once per day without concentration.

A Fighter/Abjurer with a +1 int +2 con racial bonus burning two upcast spell slots running into combat probably is going to be very effective. I'm not sure what their attack stat looks like, and I'm not sure how much more effective they are than a Figher/Abjurer/Warlock1 doing the exact same thing, but assuming they have all those resources to burn at the time yeah it'll probably be effective. I don't understand why it shouldn't be.

This is my problem with a lot of the criticisms I'm seeing. Yeah, a lot of these options are good. Are they insanely good? Are they broken? No, not really. They're just good. They compete with optimal choices. Why shouldn't they? If they didn't compete, you'd see guides ranking them purple and red and asking why anyone would take such a neutered option.

So far, I'm still just seeing the Moon Druid of Warding issue, and even that's something that can be replicated with a 1 level Warlock dip and a friendly wizard/sorcerer.

[HappyDaze]

For a wizard, this is less of an issue, cause their class mechanic is designed to learn new spells at very little cost.


In the first tier of play (levels 1-4), the cost of adding new spells to the spell books is not "very little."

[TIPOT]

And yours conclude you are not familiar with GW or FR.

The lowest level deity I can remember is lvl 40, with most greater deities being between lvl 50-60

In fact, the truly powerful MORTALS in FR are or were lvl 40+ (i.e: Karsus, Ioulam, Srinshee, pre-godhood Azuth, etc)

Although he was unclear I'm pretty sure he meant in Eberron the gods are like 15th level. The Lord of Blades and the Lich queen are both about that level.

[Dork_Forge]

Eladrin and Shadar Kai can cast Misty Step at 1st level for free, and Shadar Kai get damage resistance on top of it. It's not like people were up in arms about Shadar Kai being overtuned. Hell, Mark of Passage is almost directly analogous to some Elf options. +2 dex and +1 floating stat, 35 speed, Misty Step, bonus to Acrobatics, and an option to learn some mobility/travel spells in exchange for Fey Ancestry, Trance, the Misty Step riders offered by Eladrin/ShadarKai, extra stealth options, extra cantrip, weapon training, and whatever else I'm forgetting. I really don't see a case for calling Mark of Passage broken when Elves exist.

The damage resistance is level-gated, and, that ability is their whole schtick. Whereas, the Mark of Passage gets an increased movement speed (Wood Elf), can teleport (Shadar Kai/Eladrin), gets a bonus to Acrobatics (that will stack with prof., Expertise, Guidance, etc.), and gets a bunch of spells added to their list (GGTR backgrounds). You also have to remember that a floating +1 is worth a lot in itself, and you still get the bonus language for being a Human. All of those things can be planned/built around, but how often does Fey Ancestry actually come up for most people in play?




Are we really worried about an hour long Magic Weapon spell? You can only cast this on non-magical weapons, and I'm sure it'll come in handy at low levels, but I have a hard time believing we're ready to declare a whole race option "broken" over access to Magic Weapon for 1 hour once per day without concentration.

Point of context, MOST play takes place under 10th level. Even then, how likely is it that all characters will have +1 gear/find +1 in their niche (how common are +1 glaives and hand-crossbows?)? You trivialise removing concentration, but between that and an hour duration, it basically guarantees it will be used every day regardless of whatever spells the character otherwise wants to cast (Haste + magic weapon, Fly + magic weapon, etc.). That's besides also getting access to that spell two levels earlier than a full caster and stepping on the Forge Cleric's toes. It may not be broken, but it is certainly a very strong option, especially with the rest of what the race gets.



A Fighter/Abjurer with a +1 int +2 con racial bonus burning two upcast spell slots running into combat probably is going to be very effective. I'm not sure what their attack stat looks like, and I'm not sure how much more effective they are than a Figher/Abjurer/Warlock1 doing the exact same thing, but assuming they have all those resources to burn at the time yeah it'll probably be effective. I don't understand why it shouldn't be.

The issue there (and anywhere where you suggest a Warlock dip) is that it used to cost a 13 in CHA, and delaying your main class progression by a level. Now you just have to have the right mark. You also make it seem like having those resources would be unlikely on a full caster with short rest slot recovery.




So far, I'm still just seeing the Moon Druid of Warding issue, and even that's something that can be replicated with a 1 level Warlock dip and a friendly wizard/sorcerer

So- delaying progression, an additional stat requirement, and relying on the resources of teammates, versus being a specific subrace, doesn't seem like power-creep to you?



This is my problem with a lot of the criticisms I'm seeing. Yeah, a lot of these options are good. Are they insanely good? Are they broken? No, not really. They're just good. They compete with optimal choices. Why shouldn't they? If they didn't compete, you'd see guides ranking them purple and red and asking why anyone would take such a neutered option.

To be clear, I don't think they are outright broken, but they are very strong options without the unnecessary (and design-breaking) spell lists. Had they not included those, I wouldn't really have much of an issue with it.

[MrCharlie]

You're not really missing anything, it's out of design for 5e and is some serious power creep. The subraces stand on their own as strong caster options, the added spells are just unnecessary and over the top regardless of setting.
I absolutely agree-about the power. The value statements behind that? Not so much.

Eberron is one world with one splat. The power of the marks is undeniable-it lets players do something they cannot do otherwise. Clerics and warlocks who can teleport, many casters gaining access to elemental weapon, Sorcerers being able to get up to all sorts of shenanigans now with metamagic....

But here's the thing. Nothing about this is bad. We saw something similar with the Divine Soul-there are a lot of options which are gimmicky, insane, and powerful due to the opening of just one spell list to another limited list of options. But did it make the game unplayable? No! And Divine soul is even more prevalent than Eberron games! It's in a common splat!

Power creep is a fact, but one of the things about DnD 5e is (outside of a few exceptional cases) the splats haven't really invalidated anything previously written (except healing spirit making all other out of combat healing invalid...) because the power gap is smaller to begin with. I'm also 100% fine with overpowered things being limited to a singular splat. Further, power creep of this form-more options, expansion of options, rather than better options-is even more understandable.

Finally-being a member of a house is dangerous in eberron. There should be rewards, but there are risks and complications due to simply being dragonmarked. It's a position of privilege and power, but privilege and power are not free. And further, this fits with how dragonmarks work-they are often themed as a source of power for spells, so why not let them provide expanded spell lists? The only oddities there are A. it's not in typical 5e design if you accept that class options that expand lists are separate, and B. it's not thematic in any way-a Druid can have the mark of making, for example. Other than that, this fits the lore, and seems like it'd be a blast to play.

Oh, a finally, for real, this book in general has a lot of things that defy previous design philosophies. Maybe that's a bad thing, but I'm all for it. The book experimented, it can do that because it's a limited source, and I have no fears of change and options.

(The one thing I am ambivalent about is it negating previous Eberron wayfinders guide content....)

[Dork_Forge]

I absolutely agree-about the power. The value statements behind that? Not so much.

Eberron is one world with one splat. The power of the marks is undeniable-it lets players do something they cannot do otherwise. Clerics and warlocks who can teleport, many casters gaining access to elemental weapon, Sorcerers being able to get up to all sorts of shenanigans now with metamagic....

But here's the thing. Nothing about this is bad. We saw something similar with the Divine Soul-there are a lot of options which are gimmicky, insane, and powerful due to the opening of just one spell list to another limited list of options. But did it make the game unplayable? No! And Divine soul is even more prevalent than Eberron games! It's in a common splat!

Power creep is a fact, but one of the things about DnD 5e is (outside of a few exceptional cases) the splats haven't really invalidated anything previously written (except healing spirit making all other out of combat healing invalid...) because the power gap is smaller to begin with. I'm also 100% fine with overpowered things being limited to a singular splat. Further, power creep of this form-more options, expansion of options, rather than better options-is even more understandable.

Finally-being a member of a house is dangerous in eberron. There should be rewards, but there are risks and complications due to simply being dragonmarked. It's a position of privilege and power, but privilege and power are not free. And further, this fits with how dragonmarks work-they are often themed as a source of power for spells, so why not let them provide expanded spell lists? The only oddities there are A. it's not in typical 5e design if you accept that class options that expand lists are separate, and B. it's not thematic in any way-a Druid can have the mark of making, for example. Other than that, this fits the lore, and seems like it'd be a blast to play.

Oh, a finally, for real, this book in general has a lot of things that defy previous design philosophies. Maybe that's a bad thing, but I'm all for it. The book experimented, it can do that because it's a limited source, and I have no fears of change and options.

(The one thing I am ambivalent about is it negating previous Eberron wayfinders guide content....)

But we didn't see that with the Divine Soul, access to the Cleric list was the main ability of the subclass on the most spell known starved class. Building spell access into backgrounds and race options erodes class identity and provides needless creep. Marks give the ability to cast spells... Why isn't that enough to show their power and give access to spells outside of lists the same way races have for all of 5e? Hey look, that Cleric can cast Mage Armor because of his mark, that's cool and fits the fluff but on what level does allowing that to interact with unrelated (in this example, divine) casting make sense?

The Dragon mark House membership being dangerous is a good point, but roleplay should never be a balance for mechanics and you don't need a dragonmark to be a member of a house (nor need to be a member of the associated House if you do show the mark).

On the topic of it being an Eberron book, I agree to an extent but design should remain consistent game wide. Besides that, realistically people are going to want to use these options outside of Eberron and quite frankly when we've received the equivalent of one player supplement in five years the options we do get trickled out to us should be useable outside of the intended setting.

I am curious what you meant about the experimenting though (besides the group patron idea which seems fantastic). In regards to Wayfinders that whole thing felt... Slimey.

It was basically paid playtest material and the they turn around and publish a full priced book that is half Wayfinders already and doesn't even give new art across the board (though the new art it does give is lovely).

[RifleAvenger]

But also a new setting needs to be consistent and internally balanced. "A few added spells" are a helluvalot of a power increase. I'll try to write down my objections a bit more systematically:

1) 5e casters are limited to certain niches and areas where they can shine. A wizard will never be a great healer. A bard will never be great in dealing direct damage, even with magical secrets, compared to specialized casters. Handing out something like 10 extra spells known breaks this. It's not for naught that magical secrets is such a strong ability. Thing about wizards with strong healing, or clerics with a plethora of teleportation spells, or divine casters with counterspell. The "caster that could do everything" really does't need to return.

In the context of Ravnica, of Magic the Gathering, this breaks down. Strengths and limits should be based on color identity, not "class." A "cleric" could be any color depending on what they're a cleric OF. A wizard, likewise, could be of nearly any color except maybe Green. Ravnica, furthermore, is a plane/setting based on dual color combinations and this makes it harder to try and pretend that certain classes and their spell lists map to specific colors. If you have someone in a Blue guild, they reasonably should have access to Blue's signature powers like Counterspell and the staple divinations to gain knowledge. If they're in the Simic, though, then they should have spells dealing with nature to some extent too! So then you wind up with counterspelling druids, which is terrible for D&D balance, but essential to certain character concepts wholly consistent with Magic's setting.

Magic is also setting that presumes, from the start, that the players (who are planeswalkers, lorewise) are all casters of some variety and extent. Even physical powerhouses like Garruk and Gideon are also spellcasters. "The caster that could do everything" exists in Magic already too, in several places (I'll name Urza for starters). All this is to say that D&D is, frankly, a bad fit for Magic. Despite that, I'm glad that they expanded the spell lists for that setting. It's literally the only way in some cases to get the spell-combinations needed for certain Color pairings without janky and weak cross-classing.

As for Eberron? The Mark of Healing existed in 3.5e, anyone could take it and get its powers (non-casters included). Giving anyone access to this power is not a problem; in fact, most of the Dragonmarks were weak to trap feats! I can agree that giving full spell access to casters only is probably a misstep, but having a race that gives anyone limited healing/movement/whatever powers is not an issue.

2) spells are balanced against other class features. Handing out spells known like candy also breaks this. The easiest example is the moon druid, the druid spell list is balanced carefully not to make it possible to buff the combat forms to high heavens. There are few self buffs, and those that exist aren't that hot and require concentration (like barkskin). A Warding moon druid wildshaped into a combat form with both mage armor and armor of agathys is much stronger than a regular one.

No disagreement on this point.

3) some spells are part of half caster's lists only: like Elemental Weapon, and the healing aura spells of the paladin. With dragonmarks, any full class can nick them. It also can make them much stronger: elemental weapon +3/+3d4 use was formerly only possible with a bard spending magical secrets, or multiclass. Now any class can use it. Even if it does't allow game breaking combo's, it's not good if unique class features can be grabbed by other classes without any significant investment.

I would call having to pick a certain race and sub-race a significant investment, especially if it results in desired trade-offs elsewhere.

That said, these spells largely seem to be replacements for the higher tiers of Dragonmark feat in 3e. If they were racial feats instead, that would both better fit prior implementation, lore, and be a far more expensive trade-off.

4) this is a racial feature that adds (potentially a lot) of power to certain classes and none to others. That's abysmal balancing.

I can agree that the spells granted should have been innate magic a dragonmarked of any class could use. I will not agree that they should not have been.

Ultimately, you may have a point about the Eberron extra spells being implemented badly. I disagree that they shouldn't have been at all; rather, having them be innate magic, potentially through racial feats, would have been preferable. I disagree strenuously on Ravnica.

[Evaar]

. It may not be broken, but it is certainly a very strong option, especially with the rest of what the race gets.

So- delaying progression, an additional stat requirement, and relying on the resources of teammates, versus being a specific subrace, doesn't seem like power-creep to you?

To be clear, I don't think they are outright broken, but they are very strong options without the unnecessary (and design-breaking) spell lists. Had they not included those, I wouldn't really have much of an issue with it.

It doesn't sound like we disagree much. The question is really are these things so good that they invalidate existing options or not? I say they're not except in a few specific builds. It seems like you're saying basically the same thing. I think we differ only on how big a deal it is for these to become the best option in a few cases.

For me, I think if you get a big splat of new options and none of them are the best option in any situation, then the release was kind of a failure. If you didn't want to ever be one of the old subraces and only ever wanted to play a Dragonmarked because they're so good, that would also be a failure. They landed in between those two, which is what I want.

A couple more quibbles:

I'm not saying that being able to skip dipping Warlock isn't valuable or even very good. I'm just saying that being able to accomplish the same thing with a 1 level dip sort of implies it's not an insane combo, or else we'd see people actually using it. Which we don't. It's not hard to accomplish with the rules that exist, go Half-Elf to make the 13 Cha easy to hit. Asking a caster to use up a 1st level spell to vastly increase your tankiness all day doesn't seem like a ridiculous request considering Shield of Faith exists and sees use. So where are all the posts about overpowered Moon Druid/Warlock MCs abusing AoA? In essence, I'm saying people who think this is insane should get out and try it. I suspect the character will do fine.

I'm also not saying having a +1 magic weapon at low levels isn't great, but rather than directly comparing it to the spell Magic Weapon, which is a pretty poorly rated spell in most guides that I can see, I think it ought to be compared to an Artificer's infusions. At level 2, an Artificer could pass out two +1 magic weapons that last until the Artificer says they don't and don't use Concentration. And yet, this board is full of threads complaining about how the Artificer seems weak. So how is it "obscenely overpowered," to quote the first post, to do it for an hour instead of, say, gain proficiency in two skills or an extra feat? It's GOOD, sure, but "obscenely overpowered?"

Other things Mark of Passage gives up compared to an Elf: Perception proficiency, Darkvision. Shadar Kai would bring resistance to Necrotic as well. I could be snarky and write a whole thing about how insane and obscene it is that this subrace just gets to automatically ignore half of a damage type commonly used by monsters, and then gets to ignore half of ALL damage whenever they want once a day, even psychic damage which bear totems don't even resist, but you get the point.

[MrCharlie]

But we didn't see that with the Divine Soul, access to the Cleric list was the main ability of the subclass on the most spell known starved class. Building spell access into backgrounds and race options erodes class identity and provides needless creep. Marks give the ability to cast spells... Why isn't that enough to show their power and give access to spells outside of lists the same way races have for all of 5e? Hey look, that Cleric can cast Mage Armor because of his mark, that's cool and fits the fluff but on what level does allowing that to interact with unrelated (in this example, divine) casting make sense? I've never quite agreed that Sorcerer's were truly spell starved because metamagic effectively gave them more spells via the modular nature of it, but irrespective of that I agree with the point..except that class identity is important. I agree this clearly erodes class identity. I just don't see why this is bad. It's different, it's new, it changes the balance, but it's not...bad.

The one thing to say is that Eberron is significantly more loosey goosey on how divine magic actually works, and I believe it popularized the whole "divine magic comes from belief" take on it, so clerical magic would be more-or-less "you can cast these spells because you believe in your mark". This is part of why I don't see why being a cleric should define you in Eberron; your character identity is different to begin with.


The Dragon mark House membership being dangerous is a good point, but roleplay should never be a balance for mechanics and you don't need a dragonmark to be a member of a house (nor need to be a member of the associated House if you do show the mark).

I actually see no reason why roleplay should not be a "balance" for mechanics, but in truth, I'm not really talking about balancing as power at a price-I'm talking about balancing as thematic forcing, if that makes any sense. Just like a devotion paladin forces certain themes, the dragonmarked houses force certain themes to surround a character-hence, they aren't obviously the best option for every character, and balance issues are less...severe. They are a constraint. I'm fine with power and option discrepancies, as long as they have constraints and there is a reason to play other characters to explore other themes. It isn't just dangerous, you can't really play a dragonmarked character without caring about the houses in the same way you can't play a paladin without caring about the code.

You do have to be related to a house to have a mark, although I think it can skip generations. And the houses certainly don't care if you think you are affiliated or not-you are under their jurisdiction, if they have the power to make it so. It's extremely hard to realistically play a character with a dragonmark and no house ties, if Eberron is being interpreted "normally".


On the topic of it being an Eberron book, I agree to an extent but design should remain consistent game wide. Besides that, realistically people are going to want to use these options outside of Eberron and quite frankly when we've received the equivalent of one player supplement in five years the options we do get trickled out to us should be useable outside of the intended setting.
I certainly agree as regards races like warforged (robot men are showing up everywhere now), but the dragonmarked houses are uniquely Eberron. I would expect significant homebrewing if someone imported them into another setting, to represent a similar race that has mystical powers. I also do agree that does somewhat matter, because people might use this as a template to homebrew and it really should not be.

I suppose the fundamental disagreement here might be that I don't see any reason a race option can't change a character to the same degree a class choice can-and I see no reason why race options have to be "equal" even in scope, so long as there is a balancing act within the scope of roleplay. I feel like there is some relation to the 3.5 implementation of races when it came to splats, where we had dozens and dozens of weird races with exotic boosts to stats and abilities. I never really saw something wrong with playing, say, a pixie, as long as the player didn't just act like he was a halfling with a growth problem, basically.

I don't see these marks working at all, incidentally, for a game environment where it's sit down and play; "LFG, level 5 Mark of Warding Sorcerer" style, because the marks are tied into the lore and scope of the world too fundamentally to be done right. I will also absolutely agree that there is tremendous potential for this to be done wrong, in the sense that you can take this, use it to make a powerful character, and ignore the lore ties because the game environment is too shallow to interact with them. But in general, I don't think Eberron fits that kind of playstyle anyway.

Also, the book has the first +3 racial bonus race, artificers break a lot of rules all over the place, and other such things are also "experimental". But I feel like 5e before now has been very forgotten realms high fantasy centric. This is different because the setting is different. To a degree. And the boundary of that degree is that these things should-by and large-stay in eberron. Maybe forgotten realms has a place for some warforged. Maybe taking changelings is fine. But Dragonmarked houses? Magi-tech items? Even, to a degree, artificers? That doesn't fit.

As a final word-I can easily agree to disagree and think your concerns are valid.

P.S. I'm personally more concerned about artificers ending up in my high fantasy than the dragonmarked houses. Artificers are very Indiana Jones/Military-magical complex/urban fantasy themed, which forgotten realms, grayhawk, etc. are certainly not. There are small places but them, but not by and large. And I know people will try to bring them to their other campaigns, while I trust people to realize the houses are separate.

[MaxWilson]

Is it me or are these obscenely overpowered? Especially the 'extra spells'; this in itself is very, very powerful. These are strong spell lists, with formerly (rather) unique spells like Armor of Agathys (moon druids or wizards!), Counterspell (for Druids or Clerics), that can be added now without any effort. Even more important, it allows casters to easly add spells outside their niche, greatly improving their versatility.

And on top of this spell list, these subclasses add other good abilities! The "spells of the mark" seem like an extra - logical given that martial characters don't benefit from it at all - but this is all the more a sign of the disbalance in design (like the Ravnica backgrounds were).

Or, as asked in the title, am I missing something?

I had concerns at first too, based on Internet postings, but now that I have the book and am reading through it I am less concerned--in the context of dragonmarked houses, it makes enough sense and adds enough restrictions to make it something other than a no-brainer. If you want to be a healing wizard, not only do you have to be a halfling but you also inherit all of the expectations and enemies (as well as allies) that go along with belonging to House Jorasco. That means you can't be a High Elf and you can't be a HAM or Mobile human, and you've got a 25' move speed, and people may look down on you for various reasons or treat you as cutesy or a heal-bot. And, you still have to spend one of your two "free" spell picks each level picking up the Jorasco spells you want, so the spells-known pressure on you will be even tighter than usual. Overall I still see plenty of reasons to play other kinds of wizards besides Jorasco halflings even in Eberron, therefore it's a meaningful restriction. GGTR didn't give me that same feeling, so I feel like Eberron has toned it down.

(And it's not like healing isn't already busted (brokenly strong) in 5E anyway.)

The marked spell lists are more powerful for knows-all-spells prepared casters (druids and clerics), but going through them I didn't see all that many that would be more attractive to me as e.g. a Moon Druid than racial abilities I could get by going e.g. Moon Druid Goblin. Mark of Sentinel for Warding Bond and Counterspell is good, but is it better than Nimble Escape and Fury of the Small? (So that's what the Vorpal Rabbit was!) I guess I'd be attracted to a Mark of Sentinel Shepherd Druid, but again I feel like there's enough tradeoffs for it not to be a no-brainer, and I feel this is acceptable.


I'm familiar with it, it's wide magic, not high. Full spell casters (especially ones of higher level) are still not common and it's essentially a diffusion of cantrip level magic and common level magic items.

Regardless of the setting there is still no excuse for breaking established design with such ridiculous and unnecessary power creep.

The marks have adjusted stats, intuition die, a unique ability and what amounts to limited spell casting abilities (some of which break level restriction like the Mark of Passage). So what does the additional spells add? They're not necessary, no one asked for them and they skew the races towards casters unnecessarily.

If you still think my opinion is somehow due to lack of knowledge of Eberron, then please correct me citing appropriate text from Rising from the Last War.

Without the spell lists the dragonmarked houses would for the most part be totally uninteresting. You suggest this yourself by noting that non-spellcasters won't be very attracted to the dragonmarked houses. One spell per long rest and +1d4 on some high-specific ability checks isn't enough return on investment for passing up a feat and bonus stats that are actually customized to your customized to the class you want to play.

And in 5E, almost everyone is a caster anyway. You want a Counterspelling Ranger and don't mind being tied to a specific political faction? Go for Mark of Sentinel. A straight Zealot wouldn't get much benefit from Mark of Sentinel, so the Zealot is probably going to be a Warforged or variant human or something instead, but that's not a bad thing.

[Mjolnirbear]

*snip*.

P.S. I'm personally more concerned about artificers ending up in my high fantasy than the dragonmarked houses. Artificers are very Indiana Jones/Military-magical complex/urban fantasy themed, which forgotten realms, grayhawk, etc. are certainly not. There are small places but them, but not by and large. And I know people will try to bring them to their other campaigns, while I trust people to realize the houses are separate.

I'm surprised by your comment. Rock gnomes, tinker gnomes, some dwarf communities, at least one country in Faerun, Spell jammer... The only setting without even a nod at "magical inventor" that I'm aware of is Dark Sun, which having had most of the magic sucked out of the world through a bendy straw, makes perfect sense.

[MrCharlie]

I'm surprised by your comment. Rock gnomes, tinker gnomes, some dwarf communities, at least one country in Faerun, Spell jammer... The only setting without even a nod at "magical inventor" that I'm aware of is Dark Sun, which having had most of the magic sucked out of the world through a bendy straw, makes perfect sense.
Ah, but the artificer does not work well in those settings, because it has a lot of small items and tricks, rather than the high magic of the setting. Basically, the artificer fits with settings where magic is commonplace, and the realms is one of those paradoxical settings where magic is a fact but still somehow a rare one-where there are fireballs, not flashlights.

Maybe I'm a bit hasty, but it feels like the artificer clashes with that, and that the token exceptions in the realms have been introduced more recently and are a perversion of the theme. I'm not sure if the realms can be truly said to have a theme anymore to begin with, but I never imagined artificers-or the types of problems artificers are good at dealing with-as being within it.

[Mjolnirbear]

Ah, but the artificer does not work well in those settings, because it has a lot of small items and tricks, rather than the high magic of the setting. Basically, the artificer fits with settings where magic is commonplace, and the realms is one of those paradoxical settings where magic is a fact but still somehow a rare one-where there are fireballs, not flashlights.

Maybe I'm a bit hasty, but it feels like the artificer clashes with that, and that the token exceptions in the realms have been introduced more recently and are a perversion of the theme. I'm not sure if the realms can be truly said to have a theme anymore to begin with, but I never imagined artificers-or the types of problems artificers are good at dealing with-as being within it.

Why do you feel the artificer is too "wide magic" for Faerun?

I'm not denying Eberron has that theme, and artificer is certainly Eberron in origin, but the class itself doesnt require nor impose "wide magic". All they do is tinker. They have infusions which reflect magic items, but so do adventurers. They cast spells in weird ways, but they are still spells, and the way they cast is only flavour.

Wizards invent stuff all the time. They invent spells and rituals and if something screwy happens, the answer is "a wizard did it".

Artificers do that too, just not quite so famously as Bibgy or Mordankeinen. Heward might have been a famous artificer though

[Evaar]

I ported an artificer into Faerun by portraying ancient Netheril as being wide and high magic, and saying that my character had found some notes of information he was able to salvage to replicate some of the techniques. Thus, still a rarity in the world but consistent with the setting lore.

[Fable Wright]

Gut feeling: Absolutely busted.

Thinking it over: Strong, but probably not overpowered. You can get Mage Armor and Armor of Agathys for "free" on a Mark of Warding dwarf!

...Or pick those up with a one level Warlock dip.

Counterspell on a Cleric/Druid: Extremely solid... but then there's the question of whether you'd rather have that, Resilient: Con, Magic Resistance, Fury of the Small, no-dip Booming Blade, Aarakocra, etc. Your entire racial choice is predicated on adding this one spell to your list.

It's definitely opening up some unique playstyles, but... are they better than other races? I'm going to have to lean to 'no'. Divine Soul Sorcerer hugely expanded Sorcerer, but didn't break anything.

My biggest gripe is that Conjure Animals got shared via Mark of Handling, and that there's very little incentive to play to type (Mark of Handling Druid, etc), but on the whole... the amount you sacrifice is much greater than a background, and as a defining racial feature, 1-2 key spells is probably OK. It's new and weird and breaks design paradigms, but... well, it doesn't put Polymorph or Animate Dead on the Warlock spell lists, so at least the devs learned a little bit from last time, and I think it could ultimately end up enabling unique builds without overshadowing people.

[Mjolnirbear]

.

My biggest gripe is that Conjure Animals got shared via Mark of Handling, and that there's very little incentive to play to type (Mark of Handling Druid, etc).

Doesnt the Mark of Handling let your spells and abilities that affect only beasts also affect monstrosities?

Wouldn't that mean you could Conjure Animals like a Bulette? Or shapeshift into one?

I'd think being a mark of handling would be even more awesome for a druid if that's correct. I'm AFB so it will depend on the wording I guess

Edit yeah I misremembered, it only works for two spells

[MeeposFire]

Which reminds me of the latter days of 3.5, when I had the impression that the developers were only half-assedly trying to balance things out (Book of Exalted Deeds, Complete Mage, ...) and were, perhaps, already looking with an eye towards 4e and towards squeezing 3.5 out for a quicker buck.. Hope 5e is not already that far!

Actually you have that backwards. By and large late 3.5 material is BETTER balanced than early material it is just like in this people tend to freak out over new stuff without adequete analysis.

The most broken stuff in 3e was in the Core rule books ToB, ToM, and all that later stuff much less of an issue and tended more towards a higher optimization floor but did not have a huge optimization ceiling. Heck while a warblade was more versatile and less able to be screwed over than most other weapon using classes you could still deal more damage using a fighter or barbarian (however the warblade could more damage than you would really need and would not be restricted to overly niche fighting styles and charging every round so the warblade is still generally better).

As for this particular thing I would warn people do not get overly excited about this. To me this is reminding me of how in 3e people went nuts when the favored soul class came out saying it was broken compared to the sorcerer and cleric. Later after testing it out it was came to be understood that it was weaker than the cleric and roughly comparable to the sorcerer so the calls of it being broken were not warranted. To me the calls of overpowered may be a bit premature and feels like those calls of broken on the old favored soul class.

[Chaos Jackal]

I'm a big fan of the belief that options, even niche options, mean versatility, and versatility means power.

The dragonmarks certainly give options, and in that sense alone I consider them powerful race choices. But just how powerful?

As others have stated, while initially the thought of expanding a spell list, especially with normally class-restricted spells, is a scary prospect, particularly with clerics, druids and wizards, who know or can potentially know their entire list (much less so for classes with limited spells known, although still a neat boost), the actual spells available will often leave much to be desired. The majority of strong combos have already been mentioned, so I won't go through the list again. I'll just say that, in many cases, I'd rather have, say, a drow's innate spellcasting, which takes no preparation or spells known space and will be readily available for the niche case it might be needed, than get a very situational expansion to my potential.

Dragonmark races are powerful because they give options, but they're for the most part not broken. And that's comparing them to standard fare, not even things like sorcadins. They're good picks that can make a character more versatile, but they're not busted. Not by a longshot, outside edge cases.

That being said, is it good design? I'm inclined to say no. It is, after all, a sort of buff focusing solely on the spellcasting side of the spectrum, and it does allow some light, but still annoying, toe-treading like healing wizards. It's more the toe-treading you might get from an inexperienced dance partner than having a stiletto heel shoved through your foot, but it's still toe-treading. Innate spellcasting would've probably cut it.

Eberron being its own, unique setting probably equalled carte blanche for experimenting, which sadly doesn't take into account the fact that many tables, which play on homebrew or non-D&D settings, might end up having things from Eberron next to things from FR, without any of the roleplaying consequences or setting expectations that would normally curb or boost certain choices.

So overall, not really powercreep. Good options, but largely not amazing or excellent ones. I'd probably still go half-elf or yuan-ti on a Cha-based class if I wanted to fully optimize, for example, variant human is still up there and doesn't look likely to be challenged, and depending on goals there's plenty of reasons to not take a dragonmarked race even before roleplaying issues arise.

But I'll agree with those that say the implementation isn't the best. D&D might have its own published worlds, but it's a game that encourages creativity and personal design. Working with a different philosophy across different books, based on things like intended setting, while a welcome change of pace at times, can prove problematic, simply because many tables just don't work with the intended settings.

[Dork_Forge]

Without the spell lists the dragonmarked houses would for the most part be totally uninteresting. You suggest this yourself by noting that non-spellcasters won't be very attracted to the dragonmarked houses. One spell per long rest and +1d4 on some high-specific ability checks isn't enough return on investment for passing up a feat and bonus stats that are actually customized to your customized to the class you want to play.

And in 5E, almost everyone is a caster anyway. You want a Counterspelling Ranger and don't mind being tied to a specific political faction? Go for Mark of Sentinel. A straight Zealot wouldn't get much benefit from Mark of Sentinel, so the Zealot is probably going to be a Warforged or variant human or something instead, but that's not a bad thing.

That isn't what I said or meant, I said that it skews them more towards casters, a martial would still get plenty out of the races just like a martial Duregar would still get use out of Enlarge and Invisibility. They added on a feature that has a prerequisite of spellcasting to access, and in my opinion that is unnecessary and breaks design. Giving the mark races magical abilties/innate casting maintains the flavour AND design with a lot of the more notable things the marks do (from what I can see) being things outside of a PCs control anyway (controlling a lightning rail, firing up a creation forge).

The biggest thing for me here is a red flag, the additional spell list wasn't in WGtE. Then GGtR was released with those power creep backgrounds and now the Dragonmarks have been updated to reflect the same kind of thing. That shows WotC going in a dangerous direction that personally I don't want or would think is good for the game as a whole.

[Dork_Forge]

It doesn't sound like we disagree much. The question is really are these things so good that they invalidate existing options or not? I say they're not except in a few specific builds. It seems like you're saying basically the same thing. I think we differ only on how big a deal it is for these to become the best option in a few cases.

For me, I think if you get a big splat of new options and none of them are the best option in any situation, then the release was kind of a failure. If you didn't want to ever be one of the old subraces and only ever wanted to play a Dragonmarked because they're so good, that would also be a failure. They landed in between those two, which is what I want.


I don't think the races will break anything, and they certainly don't invalidate people wanting to play other races for mechanical reasons but it does show a dangerous direction. We haven't really reaceived many player options outside of races and backgrounds in 5e (and tbh I don't want anymore races for a year or two, we've more than enough for the design team to stop pumping them out and create other content) but what we are seeing is both of those things becoming stronger in out of design ways that could be a very bad path to continue down. I hope that I'm wrong and it's because it's Ravnica (which I don't consider an official source anyway) and Eberron.


I'm not saying that being able to skip dipping Warlock isn't valuable or even very good. I'm just saying that being able to accomplish the same thing with a 1 level dip sort of implies it's not an insane combo, or else we'd see people actually using it. Which we don't. It's not hard to accomplish with the rules that exist, go Half-Elf to make the 13 Cha easy to hit. Asking a caster to use up a 1st level spell to vastly increase your tankiness all day doesn't seem like a ridiculous request considering Shield of Faith exists and sees use. So where are all the posts about overpowered Moon Druid/Warlock MCs abusing AoA? In essence, I'm saying people who think this is insane should get out and try it. I suspect the character will do fine.

You COULD do it before with a level dip and yes it was possible with HElf, but how many Druid players want to take an unrelated, unsynergystic dip just to graba couple of spells? Hurting spell and shape progression is enough to put a lot of people off and whilst you can get Cha 13 without too much hassle, it forces you to put points/race stats into that instead of something you'd probably want more. So no you don't and won't see many people running around like that, but now all it takes is being a certain race (and in the case of Warding being a Dwarf is juicy enough) and BAM there's your higher AC, harder to kill shape. Shield of Faith does exist and see use, because people like playing support characters and have the option to use it selfishly as well. Relying on another player burning a resource to help your concept, especially when that slot could be a Shield for them isn't really reasonable to assume in general. Ceratin tables and people sure, but I sure as hell wouldn't have burned a slot in tier 1/early tier 2 to help the moon druid in that fashion.


I'm also not saying having a +1 magic weapon at low levels isn't great, but rather than directly comparing it to the spell Magic Weapon, which is a pretty poorly rated spell in most guides that I can see, I think it ought to be compared to an Artificer's infusions. At level 2, an Artificer could pass out two +1 magic weapons that last until the Artificer says they don't and don't use Concentration. And yet, this board is full of threads complaining about how the Artificer seems weak. So how is it "obscenely overpowered," to quote the first post, to do it for an hour instead of, say, gain proficiency in two skills or an extra feat? It's GOOD, sure, but "obscenely overpowered?"

You shouldn't compare it to a class' primary ability because it's not equivalent and besides not really liking the Alchemist I think th Artificer is great. Magic Weapon is probably rated poorly in guides (I tend to not look at spell ratings for most things unless I'm going to play it and am struggling with my spell choice), but those guides were working on the assumption it takes your only concetration 'slot' and costing you a spell slot, weren't they? I wasn't the one to say obscenely overpowered, I made my position very clear to you, you are replying to me right now not the OP so please bear that in mind.


Other things Mark of Passage gives up compared to an Elf: Perception proficiency, Darkvision. Shadar Kai would bring resistance to Necrotic as well. I could be snarky and write a whole thing about how insane and obscene it is that this subrace just gets to automatically ignore half of a damage type commonly used by monsters, and then gets to ignore half of ALL damage whenever they want once a day, even psychic damage which bear totems don't even resist, but you get the point.

I don't understand why you would be snarky and hyperbolic with me, I didn't think I had been that way with you but since you mentioned those things let's address some of it: Any resistance that isn't BPS is highly situational, Shadar Kai can only trigger that complete damage resistance after they teleport common reason to teleport? To get away from an opponent reducing chances you'll be attacked when there's nothing to say the monster would have attacked you at all on that turn. Perception is a great skill prof, but you can get it elsewhere whereas you can't get intuition or expanded spells from any race but a Dragonmark.


Here's another gripe I have with it, all of the Dragonmarks seem roughly equivalent to each other in terms of how much stuff they get but a Dragonmark means different things to different races. A Warding Dwarf gets all those Dragonmark features, but still has Darkvision, poison resistance, Stone Cunning, weapon proficiencies, tool proficiency and the ability to wear Heavy Armor under the Str requirement without being slowed. A human gets a language. Where is the balance there within the dragon marks themselves?

[Fable Wright]

Here's another gripe I have with it, all of the Dragonmarks seem roughly equivalent to each other in terms of how much stuff they get but a Dragonmark means different things to different races. A Warding Dwarf gets all those Dragonmark features, but still has Darkvision, poison resistance, Stone Cunning, weapon proficiencies, tool proficiency and the ability to wear Heavy Armor under the Str requirement without being slowed. A human gets a language. Where is the balance there within the dragon marks themselves?

Back in The Olde Version of the Dragonmarked section, a gnome (with its loaded base features) got a cantrip and +1d4 to scribing tools. A Dwarf got a couple rituals. Halfling got the Friends cantrip. Meanwhile humans got +10ft land speed, Misty Step, ignore difficult terrain, and a couple more ribbons just because they had much less on their base chassis. Or a few castings of Animal Friendship and The Bigger They Are, plus the ability to grant advantage to minions/familiars at range, plus a few more things.

It was accounted for.

[stoutstien]

Overall i think humans have better rounded and more applicable marks. They definitely have the better spell lists as far as dragonmarks go.

Mark of sentinel EK sounds like a blast or mark of passage arcane trickster.

[Dork_Forge]

Back in The Olde Version of the Dragonmarked section, a gnome (with its loaded base features) got a cantrip and +1d4 to scribing tools. A Dwarf got a couple rituals. Halfling got the Friends cantrip. Meanwhile humans got +10ft land speed, Misty Step, ignore difficult terrain, and a couple more ribbons just because they had much less on their base chassis. Or a few castings of Animal Friendship and The Bigger They Are, plus the ability to grant advantage to minions/familiars at range, plus a few more things.

It was accounted for.

I can't tell if you meant to disagree with me, your post just confirmed that it isn't accounted for and worse that it was in the past.

[MaxWilson]

Overall i think humans have better rounded and more applicable marks. They definitely have the better spell lists as far as dragonmarks go.

Mark of sentinel EK sounds like a blast or mark of passage arcane trickster.

I'd go for Mark of Shadow EK (scout) or Mark of Handling (generate your own meat shields, just like a ranger). But I'd also still go for Sharpshooter human or Shadar Kai or Eladrin, depending, so the range of attractive EKs has widened, not narrowed.

For example, it was already possible to generate your own meat shields with Animate Dead--Mark of Handling just solves the same problem with less ick factor and less up-front prep required, in return for costing concentration. It's not better, just interestingly different.

[Fable Wright]

I can't tell if you meant to disagree with me, your post just confirmed that it isn't accounted for and worse that it was in the past.

I do not have the physical book in front of me, so I can't confirm what has or hasn't been changed easily. I believe that giving everyone the expanded spell list has pushed up the value across the board, making the previously weak subraces much stronger than they should have been... but Humans, regardless of base subrace, are all getting enough features to compete with the other baseline race features of Dwarf or Halfling.

It's interesting to note, actually, that the super powerful spells (Conjure Animals, Counterspell) are human-subrace locked.

[MrCharlie]

...The dragonmarks certainly give options, and in that sense alone I consider them powerful race choices. But just how powerful?

As others have stated, while initially the thought of expanding a spell list, especially with normally class-restricted spells, is a scary prospect, particularly with clerics, druids and wizards, who know or can potentially know their entire list...
I'd argue that the first concern is actually how can you break the spell list with Sorcerers, more than anything else; there are a few spells that are pretty scary when you can twin or extend them. In a similar vein, any class that modifiers spellcasting in some way consistently, and thus can potentially have a synergistic effect with a spell from another list, is a concern. Think a life cleric casting healing spirit for instance; busted alone, but ruthlessly so together.

After a quick check through, there isn't anything they got that they didn't already have from divine soul, and I can't think of any abilities that aren't in some other easy combo, but still, scary.

(Incidentally, Sentinel seems like a clear winner, holy sheet, Bigby's Hand, Death Ward, counterspell, warding bond, shield of faith? Those are some of the best spells in their level, arguably!)


Why do you feel the artificer is too "wide magic" for Faerun?

I'm not denying Eberron has that theme, and artificer is certainly Eberron in origin, but the class itself doesnt require nor impose "wide magic". All they do is tinker. They have infusions which reflect magic items, but so do adventurers. They cast spells in weird ways, but they are still spells, and the way they cast is only flavour.

Wizards invent stuff all the time. They invent spells and rituals and if something screwy happens, the answer is "a wizard did it".

Artificers do that too, just not quite so famously as Bibgy or Mordankeinen. Heward might have been a famous artificer though
There is a feeling of reclaiming what is lost with wizards though; wizards are almost explicitly reclaiming things less powerful than what has come before, compared to the ancient empires.

But more basically, artificers have a very wide bag of tricks; an alchemist has a bunch of support spells from the arcane and divine "lists", along with things like easy spammable flight, tricks that work well with spamming low level spells (Spell storing), and in general a diffuse approach to power. Spread small things out.

[Waazraath]

Disclaimer: hope this doesn't count as thread necromancy, but have been on vacation for 6 weeks, and then the forum was down. Since writing the original post I've read a bit more in the book, and thought about options.

Have to agree, on second thought, in general with the folks who came to the conclusion that the dragonmarked races are powerful, but not broken. Enough have been said about the Warding Moon Druid. Wis based races that give teleportation or counterspells to Clerics and Druids are also very strong, I stand by it, but then again, there's also an aasimar that is wis based, that gives a cleric the option to fly and do extra damage, and does a number of other things as well.

What hasn't been discussed yet, is the extra versatility the Dragonmark classes offer to Paladin's. Mark of Shadow makes dex paladins suddenly stealth and infiltration experts, with +1d4 to stealth checks, and invisibility, disguise self, pass without trace, etc. +cha and dex are the perfect stat modifiers as well. Mark of Passage also offers perfect stat enhancements, and access to pass without trace, misty step, dimension door, and other solid racial abilities. For certain roles this is very powerful.

Overpowered: probably not though.

Some stuff stands though. I still don't understand why the designers would want to blur the lines between classes further, by allowing healing wizards, teleporting clerics, counterspelling druids, and stealthy infiltrating paladin's - all by simply picking a race that's already good without these things. I don't think it's a good idea. I don't think its a good idea either that iconic spells that were once solid in the possestion of 1 class (looking at you AoA) are now freely available for everybody. And I think its bad design that races have some features that only work for some classes, but not for others.