Alchemist+1 level of Warlock=Infinite Elixers?

[Damon_Tor]

So elixers last until your next long rest, and you can expend a first level spell slot to create an elixer, could an alchemist take a level in warlock and generate an arbitrary number of elixirs by taking a bunch of short rests instead of a long rest?

Probably not as broken as the interaction between warlocks and sorcerers, but still, interesting combo.

[Callin]

Odd use of a Coffeelock. No Sorc just an Artificer for 3 or 4 levels and a ton of Elixers haha

[Trandir]

Yes but you also need a way to not get exaustion levels due to the lack of sleep.

[stoutstien]

Yes but you also need a way to not get exaustion levels due to the lack of sleep.

Warforged will work.

[8wGremlin]

Warforged will work.
Not anymore

[Ganryu]

If only there was a form of warlock that didn't need a long res.t Some weird Innovaction. We'll never know I guess.

[Arkhios]

Odd use of a Coffeelock. No Sorc just an Artificer for 3 or 4 levels and a ton of Elixers haha

At least this Coffeelock would be able to brew their own coffee, so that's a bonus!

[Dork_Forge]

Not anymore

Why not? They still don't need sleep.

[Arkhios]

Why not? They still don't need sleep.

They still need to rest like everyone else. Rest ≠ Sleep.

[Dork_Forge]

They still need to rest like everyone else. Rest ≠ Sleep.

I'm aware of the difference, but isn't the variant rule for sleep? If not then coffeelock would never be viable, the tome invocation just removes sleep as well.

[Arkhios]

I'm aware of the difference, but isn't the variant rule for sleep? If not then coffeelock would never be viable, the tome invocation just removes sleep as well.

In truth, I've never considered the Coffeelock to be viable under normal circumstances. It's just a hilarious idea, however unlikely to actually pull off.

[Dork_Forge]

In truth, I've never considered the Coffeelock to be viable under normal circumstances. It's just a hilarious idea, however unlikely to actually pull off.

I don't like the idea of the coffee lock to be honest, it just feels cheesey in a bad immersion breaking way. In the spirit of the thread though a Warforged should be as viable for it as the tomelock invocation.

[Daithi]

Yes but you also need a way to not get exaustion levels due to the lack of sleep.

The new UA Ranger class variants has the Tireless feature that allows you to remove a level of exhaustion.

[Alhallor]

I may be totally wrong but wasn't their a tweet that can (supposedly) shut the coffeelock down?

Tweet. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1029177242985742337?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1029177242985742337&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.geeknative.com%2F64235%2 Fdungeons-and-dragons-what-is-a-coffeelock%2F)

[ProsecutorGodot]

It's important to remember that the base rules don't actually subject you to any form of exhaustion by foregoing a long rest. The line for Warforged avoiding exhaustion from lack of sleep is more to keep in line with what the general rules are, not including any optional ones.

That said, coffeelock relies on a few assumptions to work (Warforged do not bypass this assumption):
-That you can experience a period of rest and not count it as a long rest despite meeting all the criteria of a long rest (framed classically as "I take 8 consecutive short rests")
-That your DM will allow it

Your DM is the one who decides when a period of time constitutes a long rest, your declaration of attempting to avoid one won't guarantee that the situation resolves in that way.

By default, you aren't required to sleep or take long rests. You are incentivized to do so because most classes gain resources after a long rest and all classes would benefit from the healing and hit dice restoration, even Warlocks would eventually want to recover spent hit die. If you use the variant rules for sleeping found in Xanathar's, it still makes it clear that long rest's are never mandatory.

By all accounts the rules support coffeelock (and all the consequences that come from that) but the spirit of the game is so heavily against it that I wouldn't recommend even bringing it to a table that isn't all about that sort of exploitation.


I may be totally wrong but wasn't their a tweet that can (supposedly) shut the coffeelock down?

Tweet. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1029177242985742337?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1029177242985742337&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.geeknative.com%2F64235%2 Fdungeons-and-dragons-what-is-a-coffeelock%2F)

I like to read that particular tweet as "if your player is bringing chaos to the table, fight fire with fire." because it's a very unreasonably strict reading. Technically the only thing your pact magic slots are able to be used for when you multiclass is casting spells from classes with the spellcasting feature. If you take that literally, they can't be used for anything else if you multiclass. This happens to encompass Divine Smite and Eldritch Smite, making Eldritch Smite totally unusable under this interpretation.

I'm generally alright with JC rulings, but this is one in a handful that I wouldn't argue against being a mistake.

Also keep in mind that JC tweets are no longer considered official rulings as far as SAC is concerned, and that even since SAC was created "official ruling" was only a blanket term for "designer ruling" and is in no way forced into your game. If it's not an errata don't give it more weight than you want to.

[Amechra]

I mean, sure, go Coffeelock Artificer... and fluff your character as the inventor of coffee. I'm... pretty sure that you could easily refluff your choices as different kinds of coffee (the speed booster is obviously espresso).

Just make sure that you have a nice, freshly-brewed cuppa for all of your buddies when they wake up.

[Damon_Tor]

I mean, sure, go Coffeelock Artificer... and fluff your character as the inventor of coffee. I'm... pretty sure that you could easily refluff your choices as different kinds of coffee (the speed booster is obviously espresso).

Just make sure that you have a nice, freshly-brewed cuppa for all of your buddies when they wake up.

The one that gives you a 10 foot fly speed is clearly Redbull.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

That said, coffeelock relies on a few assumptions to work (Warforged do not bypass this assumption):
-That you can experience a period of rest and not count it as a long rest despite meeting all the criteria of a long rest (framed classically as "I take 8 consecutive short rests")
-That your DM will allow it

Oddly enough, real life wrote the plot for how we handled that. (Mostly because the build actually isn't super broken despite how it looks).

Real life has proven that you can functionally force yourself into a weird multi nap sleep cycle where you only ever really sleep like 2-4 hours a day but are still fully rested and not exhausted.

We also only had a "LR" period of time count as 3-4 Short Rests so it doesn't cheese quite as badly, though you can build up stuff during down time.

I've had a player deliberately do it that way. You could even throw in the hassle of the fact that having this sleep cycle IRL requires scheduling power naps every 4-6 hours which can be it's own weird hindrance.

But if you can do it IRL (And I used to before children messed up my ability to schedule like that) then there's no reason not to allow it in game.

[Dork_Forge]

Oddly enough, real life wrote the plot for how we handled that. (Mostly because the build actually isn't super broken despite how it looks).

Real life has proven that you can functionally force yourself into a weird multi nap sleep cycle where you only ever really sleep like 2-4 hours a day but are still fully rested and not exhausted.

We also only had a "LR" period of time count as 3-4 Short Rests so it doesn't cheese quite as badly, though you can build up stuff during down time.

I've had a player deliberately do it that way. You could even throw in the hassle of the fact that having this sleep cycle IRL requires scheduling power naps every 4-6 hours which can be it's own weird hindrance.

But if you can do it IRL (And I used to before children messed up my ability to schedule like that) then there's no reason not to allow it in game.

It's one thing to adopt that sleep cycle (which is very hard to do and missing naps is very very bad), but this wouldn't just be sleeping. Eating, Washing and anything else you need to do day to day is shoved into those rests and whilst mechanically viable it is certainly very cheesey.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

It's one thing to adopt that sleep cycle (which is very hard to do and missing naps is very very bad), but this wouldn't just be sleeping. Eating, Washing and anything else you need to do day to day is shoved into those rests and whilst mechanically viable it is certainly very cheesey.

Less hard and more nightmarishly sucky the first few weeks till your brain kicks over.

Honestly, the LR is described as reading, talking, etc. and specified as light activity with nothing significant accomplished for at least 8 hours.

SR is described as 1 hour of doing nothing strenuous at all beyond tending wounds, eating, drinking, reading.

Combine that with IRL showing that you only need about 3-4 hours of actual downtime to keep your body going fine.

Take that with the actual trick to the Coffee Lock of not needing actual sleep and suddenly you have 4-5 hours of downtime each night your character can apply towards crafting, studying, etc.

[ProsecutorGodot]

SNIP
I was under the impression that polyphasic sleep was a myth (or at the very least, unknown to a degree that it can be considered unsafe for most people), just about everything I've ever read on sleeping recommends 7-9 hours of continuous rest.

That's an entirely separate discussion though, it's an interesting point but I'm not sure that a DM would be any more likely to support this type of play just because there's a real world comparison.

[Arkhios]

I'm inclined to agree that Real Life Laws of Physics have no place in a fictional game in which imaginary centuries old individuals with pointed ears can create massive fiery explosions with the snap of their fingers out of thin air and other individuals can literally change shape from one to another, while some others converse with demons and others pray to gods and receive concrete benefits from that.
In a world where all this is considered "normal", Laws of Physics have absolutely zero weight.

That said, it's a game, and a game needs its own set of rules that all must abide to (you could call them the "Laws of Physics" within the game). If the rules are not followed, it all falls apart.
Coffeelock walks on a thin line that I'd say it simply doesn't work. If I was a DM and had a player who insisted on playing a Coffeelock, there would be one disappointed player in my group.
If a player can't follow the rules of the game, and is unwilling to co-operate with their DM, there's the door.

.Before anyone accuses me of being passive-aggressive, I'd like to point out that at least I make my intent clear, instead of scheming behind some false facade.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

FWIW I wasn't using IRL to try and justify breaking an in-game rule.

The build is legal, rather a DM wants to allow it is a separate issue but by RAW it's fine. Some folks earlier were pointing out that RAW or not real life sleep do was an issue. I brought up the option to point out there's a real life answer to the in game rules.

As for the actual elixer issue, it's fine. DM just has to adjust for the extended supply of potions and the player likely needs to burn an infusion on Bag of Holding.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I was under the impression that polyphasic sleep was a myth (or at the very least, unknown to a degree that it can be considered unsafe for most people), just about everything I've ever read on sleeping recommends 7-9 hours of continuous rest.

Interestingly, up until the widespread use of artificial light the typical rest cycle was 4 hours of sleep, one hour of restful activity, another 4 hours of sleep. Sounds weird nowadays, but it's actually fairly well documented IIRC. It was only after electrical light made it possible to stay out and about after dark that bedtimes got pushed back and the middle hour of being awake disappeared. (Also, I think I remember a study showing that in conditions of permanent darkness, humans will revert to this sleep cycle.)