Shape Water + Decanter Of Endless Water = Ice Javelins?

[Farias123]

So... Me and my party have just finished a campaign, my first one by the way, and we're gonna start a new one at level 6, and our DM let each one of the party choose 2 uncommon magic items, I choose the winged boots and a decanter of endless water, since I thought that it would be nice and would give me flavour to be a Fire Elemental Adept, and also a Water Bender thing with shape water.
I'm taking the Fire Elemental Adept Feat at level 8, cause I like fire spells like Firebolt, Fireball, Flaming Sphere.
I'm a Chaotic Good High Elf Wizard Bladesinger, my stats are:
STR: 5.* DEX: 18.* CON: 16.* INT: 20.* WIS: 12. CHA: 6. My DM allowed us to down some stats to up others.

That said, I would like to get to the point of this thread, that is:

If I have my familiar stay on my shoulder for example and use my decanter of endless water on his turn, and then on my turn freeze the water with the shape water cantrip, would it actually deal damage? Just like Sub Zero.

So, I could even shape the water as a big javelin, because one of the PCs is gonna be a water genasi and could freeze it on its turn, of course maybe wouldn't be that good because, would take the action of 3 different creatures, but it's not totally forgotten since it wouldn't cost a single Spell Slot.

So, what are your thoughts?

[Misterwhisper]

So... Me and my party have just finished a campaign, my first one by the way, and we're gonna start a new one at level 6, and our DM let each one of the party choose 2 uncommon magic items, I choose the winged boots and a decanter of endless water, since I thought that it would be nice and would give me flavour to be a Fire Elemental Adept, and also a Water Bender thing with shape water.
I'm taking the Fire Elemental Adept Feat at level 8, cause I like fire spells like Firebolt, Fireball, Flaming Sphere.
I'm a Chaotic Good High Elf Wizard Bladesinger, my stats are:
STR: 5.* DEX: 18.* CON: 16.* INT: 20.* WIS: 12. CHA: 6. My DM allowed us to down some stats to up others.

That said, I would like to get to the point of this thread, that is:

If I have my familiar stay on my shoulder for example and use my decanter of endless water on his turn, and then on my turn freeze the water with the shape water cantrip, would it actually deal damage? Just like Sub Zero.

So, I could even shape the water as a big javelin, because one of the PCs is gonna be a water genasi and could freeze it on its turn, of course maybe wouldn't be that good because, would take the action of 3 different creatures, but it's not totally forgotten since it wouldn't cost a single Spell Slot.

So, what are your thoughts?

Could you freeze water to be a weapon, probably but it would be improvised so 1d4, str based, and crap range on top of not proficient.

However I am sure your dm would not care if you just reskin a flame bolt to throwing a fire javelin.

[Phhase]

So... Me and my party have just finished a campaign, my first one by the way, and we're gonna start a new one at level 6, and our DM let each one of the party choose 2 uncommon magic items, I choose the winged boots and a decanter of endless water, since I thought that it would be nice and would give me flavour to be a Fire Elemental Adept, and also a Water Bender thing with shape water.
I'm taking the Fire Elemental Adept Feat at level 8, cause I like fire spells like Firebolt, Fireball, Flaming Sphere.
I'm a Chaotic Good High Elf Wizard Bladesinger, my stats are:
STR: 5.* DEX: 18.* CON: 16.* INT: 20.* WIS: 12. CHA: 6. My DM allowed us to down some stats to up others.

That said, I would like to get to the point of this thread, that is:

If I have my familiar stay on my shoulder for example and use my decanter of endless water on his turn, and then on my turn freeze the water with the shape water cantrip, would it actually deal damage? Just like Sub Zero.

So, I could even shape the water as a big javelin, because one of the PCs is gonna be a water genasi and could freeze it on its turn, of course maybe wouldn't be that good because, would take the action of 3 different creatures, but it's not totally forgotten since it wouldn't cost a single Spell Slot.

So, what are your thoughts?


You've made one critical error: Javelins are a Strength thrown weapon.

But, moving past that...

I love it! Shape water is one of my favorite cantrips. The javelins would probably be destroyed after 1 use, though. And if your DM is REALLY a butt, you might run into the fact that you may or may not know how a javelin is forged and balanced, and that they are not usually made of ice blah blah

I'd personally just give it to you. With at max a proficiency in smithing so you know the right shape. And perhaps I'd change the range to 40/90 to reflect the lighter weight of the ice javelin.

So!

Firstly, remember that the Shape Water freeze lasts 1 hour before ambient heat begins to have any effect on it, so here's a more efficient way to do it than making them 1 at a time in combat.

I've taken the liberty of doing some calculations for you.

To make things a bit simpler, we should first consider how many javelins you want to have for your encounter. Because remember, Shape Water can create shapes plural with one cast, so you can make a batch of javelins in one action shortly before or even during combat. In addition, Shape Water can affect up to ~37 gallons of water at a time, given that it's all near to each other (That's the amount that fits in a 5ft cube), so that's not really a concern. With a whopping strength score of 5, you can carry 75lb of stuff without being encumbered.

Now, the average medieval javelin is more or less a cylinder that is about 2 meters long and 30mm thick, giving it a volume of ~0.373 gallons.

For an average combat encounter, where the javelins are important, but not your only attack mode, let's say you want to go in with...20 javelins.

Ice weighs about 7.71lb/gal, so with 20 javelins at 0.373gal per javelin, that's 2.87 per javelin, ending up at a manageable 57.5 pounds for a batch of javelins.

Throw in a couple more pounds for a big canister/tank with a cap you can store the water in (Like a liquid quiver), and you've got an easy 60lbs of stuff, leaving 15 pounds of wiggle room before your skinny elfin spine begins to creak.

So, I expect to see that stats shuffled a bit if you want the Javelins to be one of your mainstays.

Let's begin again.

Say your 18 was STR instead, giving you a healthy +4.

That gives you an unencumbered max of 270lbs. This means we can beef the javelins up.

In a quiver with a 1ft mouth, you can fit about...85 javelins? That's about 244lbs, and requires you to have 29 gallons of water stored in your Quiver/tank.

Since there aren't any stats for Camelbaks in 5e, here's my proposed water tank/quiver:

Its interior is a foot in diameter and it's 5 feet long. It's made of 1/4in oak, which comes to an additional ~16 pounds.

With 85 javelins-worth of water, the tank is 94% full of liquid, and weighs a neat 260lb. Enough javelins for your mother, father, brother sister, and other.

Use this useless data as you will. That's all, folks!

tl:dr - Change your primary stat to STR, and carry a tank. Convert to ice before battle. Enjoy.

[Farias123]

You've made one critical error: Javelins are a Strength thrown weapon.

But, moving past that...

I love it! Shape water is one of my favorite cantrips. The javelins would probably be destroyed after 1 use, though. And if your DM is REALLY a butt, you might run into the fact that you may or may not know how a javelin is forged and balanced, and that they are not usually made of ice blah blah

I'd personally just give it to you. With at max a proficiency in smithing so you know the right shape. And perhaps I'd change the range to 40/90 to reflect the lighter weight of the ice javelin.

So!

Firstly, remember that the Shape Water freeze lasts 1 hour before ambient heat begins to have any effect on it, so here's a more efficient way to do it than making them 1 at a time in combat.

I've taken the liberty of doing some calculations for you.

To make things a bit simpler, we should first consider how many javelins you want to have for your encounter. Because remember, Shape Water can create shapes plural with one cast, so you can make a batch of javelins in one action shortly before or even during combat. In addition, Shape Water can affect up to ~37 gallons of water at a time, given that it's all near to each other (That's the amount that fits in a 5ft cube), so that's not really a concern. With a whopping strength score of 5, you can carry 75lb of stuff without being encumbered.

Now, the average medieval javelin is more or less a cylinder that is about 2 meters long and 30mm thick, giving it a volume of ~0.373 gallons.

For an average combat encounter, where the javelins are important, but not your only attack mode, let's say you want to go in with...20 javelins.

Ice weighs about 7.71lb/gal, so with 20 javelins at 0.373gal per javelin, that's 2.87 per javelin, ending up at a manageable 57.5 pounds for a batch of javelins.

Throw in a couple more pounds for a big canister/tank with a cap you can store the water in (Like a liquid quiver), and you've got an easy 60lbs of stuff, leaving 15 pounds of wiggle room before your skinny elfin spine begins to creak.

So, I expect to see that stats shuffled a bit if you want the Javelins to be one of your mainstays.

Let's begin again.

Say your 18 was STR instead, giving you a healthy +4.

That gives you an unencumbered max of 270lbs. This means we can beef the javelins up.

In a quiver with a 1ft mouth, you can fit about...85 javelins? That's about 244lbs, and requires you to have 29 gallons of water stored in your Quiver/tank.

Since there aren't any stats for Camelbaks in 5e, here's my proposed water tank/quiver:

Its interior is a foot in diameter and it's 5 feet long. It's made of 1/4in oak, which comes to an additional ~16 pounds.

With 85 javelins-worth of water, the tank is 94% full of liquid, and weighs a neat 260lb. Enough javelins for your mother, father, brother sister, and other.

Use this useless data as you will. That's all, folks!

tl:dr - Change your primary stat to STR, and carry a tank. Convert to ice before battle. Enjoy.

Wow man, these are lot of nice calculations, the only problem is that I'm a wizard and I don't think it would be that good instead of having a High AC.

[JackPhoenix]

Since there aren't any stats for Camelbaks in 5e, here's my proposed water tank/quiver:

Its interior is a foot in diameter and it's 5 feet long. It's made of 1/4in oak, which comes to an additional ~16 pounds.

It's called a barrel. You can propably get a keg too, though that one doesn't have a price or a volume in the rules.

[Keravath]

Decanter of endless water ...

"• "Geyser" produces 30 gallons of water that gushes forth in a geyser 30 feet long and 1 foot wide. As a bonus action while holding the decanter, you can aim the geyser at a creature you can see within 30 feet of you. The target must succeed on a DC 13 Strength saving throw or take 1d4 bludgeoning damage and fall prone. Instead of a creature, you can target an object that isn't being worn or carried and that weighs no more than 200 pounds. The object is either knocked over or pushed up to 15 feet away from you."

Shape Water:
"You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5—foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:"
You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour."

So water happens when you create a frozen javelin inside the stream of water coming from the decanter as a geyser? The water is clearly being fired off with sufficient force to do damage and knock someone over even without a sharp pointy ice javelin embedded in the flow. Is a decanter an ice javelin launcher?

A one foot diameter by five feet long water column is 3.93 cu feet or 111.3 liters which is 111.3 kgs or almost 250 lbs of ice being shot out from the geyser with enough force to travel 30'. By the way, 30 US gallons of water is 114 liters so you are converting the geyser to solid ice shooting through the air.

Using the decanter is a bonus action so you can use your action to cast Shape Water on it.

I would think 250 lbs of solid ice would be quite damaging but I'd likely require an attack roll rather than a save since unlike the water from the decanter you can't swing it around to refine your aim.

Ice cannon anyone? :)

[Farias123]

Using the decanter is a bonus action so you can use your action to cast Shape Water on it.


Yeah, but actually it states that you need to spend your action to speak the command word, that's why I thought of using the familiar for this.

[Damon_Tor]

So... Me and my party have just finished a campaign, my first one by the way, and we're gonna start a new one at level 6, and our DM let each one of the party choose 2 uncommon magic items, I choose the winged boots and a decanter of endless water, since I thought that it would be nice and would give me flavour to be a Fire Elemental Adept, and also a Water Bender thing with shape water.
I'm taking the Fire Elemental Adept Feat at level 8, cause I like fire spells like Firebolt, Fireball, Flaming Sphere.
I'm a Chaotic Good High Elf Wizard Bladesinger, my stats are:
STR: 5.* DEX: 18.* CON: 16.* INT: 20.* WIS: 12. CHA: 6. My DM allowed us to down some stats to up others.

That said, I would like to get to the point of this thread, that is:

If I have my familiar stay on my shoulder for example and use my decanter of endless water on his turn, and then on my turn freeze the water with the shape water cantrip, would it actually deal damage? Just like Sub Zero.

So, I could even shape the water as a big javelin, because one of the PCs is gonna be a water genasi and could freeze it on its turn, of course maybe wouldn't be that good because, would take the action of 3 different creatures, but it's not totally forgotten since it wouldn't cost a single Spell Slot.

So, what are your thoughts?

At my table I've started using a unified impact damage system to handle edge cases like this, where something is happening that reasonably should cause damage, but the mechanics just don't exist in game.

30 gallons of water weighs about 250 pounds, solidly a medium object, giving it impact dice of d6. It has a velocity of 3 (derived from its 30 foot travel distance) so the damage of the impact is 3d6. If we assign ice a hardness of 5 (putting it between water 0 and wood 10) that means 5 of the ice's "share" of the damage goes to the other object, the creature in question (assuming the creature has hardness 0, which most do). An average roll of 3d6 is 10.5, so the creature will take almost all of that damage.

That's better than the 1d4 damage dealt by the normal "geyser" function of the water, but it's still a waste of your action compared to a cantrip actually designed to deal damage.

Now, that doesn't form the water into a "javelin" but physics aren't on your side for this. There's no good way to keep a spear-like object inside a moving column of water pointing straight forward: the water moving around it would spin the javelin and the odds of making a direct impact of the point against the target at a 90 degree angle is miniscule.

[PhantomSoul]

At my table I've started using a unified impact damage system to handle edge cases like this, where something is happening that reasonably should cause damage, but the mechanics just don't exist in game.

30 gallons of water weighs about 250 pounds, solidly a medium object, giving it impact dice of d6. It has a velocity of 3 (derived from its 30 foot travel distance) so the damage of the impact is 3d6. If we assign ice a hardness of 5 (putting it between water 0 and wood 10) that means 5 of the ice's "share" of the damage goes to the other object, the creature in question (assuming the creature has hardness 0, which most do). An average roll of 3d6 is 10.5, so the creature will take almost all of that damage.

I'd love to read more -- do you have a link for the system? I found a 3.5 reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness) but it has a different value for ice, and I didn't see it quickly checking the DMG stats for objects info (AC 13 for ice, but no mention of 5 or of hardness)

[Damon_Tor]

I'd love to read more -- do you have a link for the system? I found a 3.5 reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness) but it has a different value for ice, and I didn't see it quickly checking the DMG stats for objects info (AC 13 for ice, but no mention of 5 or of hardness)

The hardness values I use in my collision system have little connection to the hardness values used by the breaking objects rules of 3/3.5 except the shared name. For one thing, 3.5's system also had you roll against an item's "AC" when you tried to break it, which I am not. Ergo, my "DR" has to be higher. I came to the numbers I did by thinking about how high of a fall a person would have to fall from to result in a dent/crack/crater in a given substance and I acknowledge that my gut feelings on the matter aren't scientific and are thus subject to change.

In short:

When two objects and/or creatures collide, determine the Impact Dice (based on weight, or size if you don't know weight) and Velocity (10 feet/round = 1) of whichever of those objects are moving.


Collision Dice
Weight
Size


0
<1 lb
-


1
1-29 lbs
Tiny



1d4
30-99 lbs
Small


1d6
100-799 lbs
Medium



1d8
800-6399 lbs
Large


1d10
6400-51199 lbs
Huge


1d12
>51200 lbs
Gargantuan


Multiply the Impact dice by velocity to get the total damage dealt by the impact, then determine the objects' hardness to determine how this damage is divided. Two objects/creatures of the same hardness each take half the damage, but if there is a difference in the hardness of the two objects, deduct the difference in hardness from the damage taken by the harder object and deal it to the softer object instead. (much of the time you can skip this step: boulders and anvils and cannonballs are so much harder than the creatures you're dropping them on there's not much chance they're going to be taking any of the damage unless the damage is so high it wouldn't matter anyway.)



Material
Hardness


Flesh, Water
0


Ice, Glass, Pottery
5


Wood
10


Loose Earth, Gold, Lead
20


Brick
25


Stone
30


Iron
40



So if a high-velocity collision between a stone (30 hardness) and a wooden door (10 hardness) would deal 50 damage, the difference in hardness is 20. Thus the stone would take 5 damage (25-20) while the wood door would take 45 (25+20) damage.

If the impact "crushes" one of the two objects against a third object (the ground, for example) the damage is usually just doubled, though in some unusual cases we'll treat this like a second independent impact and adjudicate accordingly.

There's more to it than this in many cases, and a creature can use a reaction to either dodge the impact entirety (Acrobatics DC = 10+Velocity) or absorb the damage by "catching" the other object and exerting its strength against it (Athletics, damage reduced by the result of the check).

[Erys]

Decanter of endless water ...

"• "Geyser" produces 30 gallons of water that gushes forth in a geyser 30 feet long and 1 foot wide. As a bonus action while holding the decanter, you can aim the geyser at a creature you can see within 30 feet of you. The target must succeed on a DC 13 Strength saving throw or take 1d4 bludgeoning damage and fall prone. Instead of a creature, you can target an object that isn't being worn or carried and that weighs no more than 200 pounds. The object is either knocked over or pushed up to 15 feet away from you."

Shape Water:
"You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5—foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:"
You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour."

So water happens when you create a frozen javelin inside the stream of water coming from the decanter as a geyser? The water is clearly being fired off with sufficient force to do damage and knock someone over even without a sharp pointy ice javelin embedded in the flow. Is a decanter an ice javelin launcher?

A one foot diameter by five feet long water column is 3.93 cu feet or 111.3 liters which is 111.3 kgs or almost 250 lbs of ice being shot out from the geyser with enough force to travel 30'. By the way, 30 US gallons of water is 114 liters so you are converting the geyser to solid ice shooting through the air.

Using the decanter is a bonus action so you can use your action to cast Shape Water on it.

I would think 250 lbs of solid ice would be quite damaging but I'd likely require an attack roll rather than a save since unlike the water from the decanter you can't swing it around to refine your aim.

Ice cannon anyone? :)

Unfortunately you cannot make an ice cannon alone.

Every round, iirc, to use the Decanter you use your action to activate it and your bonus action to aim.

Two people and a cool DM however... :smallcool:

[PhantomSoul]

[System description]

That's fantastic, definitely something to think on

[Damon_Tor]

That's fantastic, definitely something to think on

It was definitely missing. I feel like dropping things onto enemies heads is a common enough tactic that there should be rules that cover its usage, and I think every player has thought about whether or not jumping from the rafters onto an enemy would damage the enemy and/or reduce their own damage from the fall. This can cover things like run away carts and ships slamming into each other too.

[Phhase]

Hmmm, didn't even think of that! Interesting!

You could theoretically install the decanter into an Iron Defender's mouth (as an Artificer), then have your familiar fire it when you command the defender to aim on your turn, using your action to freeze it. That would be sweet.

[Farias123]

That's better than the 1d4 damage dealt by the normal "geyser" function of the water, but it's still a waste of your action compared to a cantrip actually designed to deal damage.


Of course it's not that good, but the only ranged damage cantrip I picked was Firebolt, and since there are a lot of fire-immune monsters, maybe a cantrip that could deal cold damage - and possibly impose disadvantage because the icy geyser wouldn't fade away once the creature has been hitten, and it's not nice and easy to move with a giant ice that just pierced your skin.

Of course I don't think it would happen exactly this way, because probably my DM wouldn't allow me to make a hole at an enemy's chest with a cantrip. But it's an idea.