Day One Artificer Patch 1.01

[Anderlith]

So the new Artificer is a bit of a mixed bag. It seems like the whole class was rigged around making the Battle Smith a decently powerful subclass but it seems they sort of dropped the ball on the other two. I suggest a few minor changes to help things out.

Alchemist: Experimental Elixir
You gain up to [Int Mod] Elixers at the end of a long rest, chosen from the Elixir list (no longer random) as well has having two another optionS. Acid & fire flasks that deal 1d8 damage, 30ft, thrown. At level 5 you get to add your Int to damage.

You can burn a spellslot to gain more elixirs.


I want to give the Artillerist a little something too but I’m having trouble figuring out what. Feel free to suggest or critique.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm almost positive that it's far too early to know whether (or what) parts of the class need changes.

By all means though, nothing is stopping you from making changes. If you're going to give them thrown vials, just allow them to make Alchemist Fire or Acid Vial and allow a proficiency bonus while throwing them.

[Anderlith]

I'm almost positive that it's far too early to know whether (or what) parts of the class need changes.

By all means though, nothing is stopping you from making changes. If you're going to give them thrown vials, just allow them to make Alchemist Fire or Acid Vial and allow a proficiency bonus while throwing them.

It may be day one but the fact that the potion is only one use while the other subclasses get multiple bonuses & uses is bad. Also the potion is random. What part of Artificer makes you think that your class abilities should be randomized?

[ProsecutorGodot]

It may be day one but the fact that the potion is only one use while the other subclasses get multiple bonuses & uses is bad. Also the potion is random. What part of Artificer makes you think that your class abilities should be randomized?

None of the uses for the potion are bad, I would call them situational. It's amount of uses also match the eldritch cannon to start with, scaling in use faster than artillerist does (they don't get to use their ability twice per rest until level 15!)

The Alchemist's ability to cast Lesser Restoration an amount of times equal to their intelligence modifier as well as eventually greater restoration (without its costly material components) or heal once per rest is nothing to scoff at.

It's important to note as well, only the first flask you make per long rest is randomized. When you use a spell slot you are allowed to choose. It's called "experimental" for a reason.

[Anderlith]

None of the uses for the potion are bad, I would call them situational. It's amount of uses also match the eldritch cannon to start with, scaling in use faster than artillerist does (they don't get to use their ability twice per rest until level 15!)

The Alchemist's ability to cast Lesser Restoration an amount of times equal to their intelligence modifier as well as eventually greater restoration (without its costly material components) or heal once per rest is nothing to scoff at.

It's important to note as well, only the first flask you make per long rest is randomized. When you use a spell slot you are allowed to choose. It's called "experimental" for a reason.

Why is it randomizes at all? I don’t care what they called it. They have power to change the name. Why make it random in the first place?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Why is it randomizes at all? I don’t care what they called it. They have power to change the name. Why make it random in the first place?

Having your guaranteed use of the potion be random allows the effects of the potion to have a higher power budget, that's my best guess anyway. These are pretty powerful effects (healing is almost always better than a healing potion and Boldness is non concentration bless) and you pay nothing but the cost of a vial for them.

Beyond that, there's good flavor in an alchemist who is constantly dabbling with their chemicals and experimenting with reagents. It could be that each time you create a healing potion you've been testing different reagents to see how cost effective you can make it for those who would need to use mundane components.

Personally I would be happy with any one of the potion effects. None of the effects are without their uses.

[Jerrykhor]

Its not much different from a Wizard casting a spell that has a random effect... Why are you even doing that? Waste a spell slot, roll a roulette for a 90% at a useless effect. Yay? Sure, none of the effects are bad per se, but they might be useless depending on the situation you are in.

The first effect is basically the most basic healing potion... you're saying the most novice of alchemy has to experiment with the recipe for that?? Anyone with a proficiency in herbalism kit can make a healing potion!

[ProsecutorGodot]

Its not much different from a Wizard casting a spell that has a random effect... Why are you even doing that? Waste a spell slot, roll a roulette for a 90% at a useless effect. Yay? Sure, none of the effects are bad per se, but they might be useless depending on the situation you are in.

The first effect is basically the most basic healing potion... you're saying the most novice of alchemy has to experiment with the recipe for that?? Anyone with a proficiency in herbalism kit can make a healing potion!

I'm saying that's it's better than a healing potion almost all of the time (an intelligence of 16 is all it takes) costs you only 1gp (the cost of the vial) 2cp (it actually only takes a flask) and doesn't interrupt your rest to craft.

None of the effects will ever be useless. Situationally useful yes, but never useless.

Rolling down the list:
1 - It's healing, better on average than cure wounds (at least until level 5) and can be given away to another creature
2 - Increased Speed is fantastic for martials and casters alike
3 - +1 AC, good
4 - Non concentration Bless
5 - Flight, Cross a chasm, scout from on high
6 - Surprisingly this is probably the least useful of the bunch considering it's a 2nd level spell in a bottle. It's still non concentration Alter Self though, not bad.

If you're truly at a loss on what to do with your random rolled potion (I don't see a situation where you wouldn't have some use for it) then all you have to do is spend a spell slot and choose the effect that will fix your problem.

There are a few ways to think of it, the effects are equal or better than what you would have gotten out of the first level spell slot you spent for the potion and in the best case scenario you've gotten a fantastic discount on Alter Self, which is a reliable and easy way to enable your party members to bypass non magical weapon resistance.

EDIT: I want to touch on the bolded part more. Unless you're using homebrew, the process of crafting anything in 5E is often complicated and prohibitive. Even using Xanathar's (the most generous to the player as far as crafting is concerned) your crafting time for a standard potion of healing is 1 day and 25gp, which following the rules for downtime requires at least 8 hours spent on the task.

Alternatively, you can try to convince your DM that your experimental potions of healing could be sold in town for immense monetary gain. The exchange rate, even if you sell them at half the price of a standard healing potion is insane. An Artificer could make a solid living off of selling any one of these potion effects even though they cease being magical after a long rest. Sell transformation to sailors so they can dive for treasure, flight to construction crews or boldness/resilience to the city guard.

[Keravath]

Just reading through the thread, and I have to say that having an ability where you receive a randomized potion and have this try to reflect experimentation on the part of the Alchemist really doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Alchemists don't make notes?
Alchemists don't know what components they are mixing?
Alchemists are just so stupid that they throw random components in some vials every morning and then taste them to see what they got?

I'm sorry but whoever designed this mechanism for a class that is "scientific" and performs experiments to discover new potions just missed the mark entirely since logically, it is totally nonsensical (Except perhaps for a chaotic neutral alchemist who worships Tymora and just prays for the good ones ...)

Maybe from a balance perspective, randomization was implemented so the character couldn't just choose the best ones but honestly, from a lore or role play perspective, that mechanism would make far more sense.

P.S. Just looking at the list in the post above, I don't see any need for a randomization aspect ... the effects just aren't that powerful as long as they don't stack.

P.P.S. If you want to avoid economic impact, just make sure the potions have a limited shelf life (which they likely do already).

[stoutstien]

I just started a thread on this topic but I figured I'd posted here also. As far as I can read there's nothing stopping the experimental elixir from stacking other alter self.

[Anderlith]

Just reading through the thread, and I have to say that having an ability where you receive a randomized potion and have this try to reflect experimentation on the part of the Alchemist really doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Alchemists don't make notes?
Alchemists don't know what components they are mixing?
Alchemists are just so stupid that they throw random components in some vials every morning and then taste them to see what they got?

I'm sorry but whoever designed this mechanism for a class that is "scientific" and performs experiments to discover new potions just missed the mark entirely since logically, it is totally nonsensical (Except perhaps for a chaotic neutral alchemist who worships Tymora and just prays for the good ones ...)

Maybe from a balance perspective, randomization was implemented so the character couldn't just choose the best ones but honestly, from a lore or role play perspective, that mechanism would make far more sense.

P.S. Just looking at the list in the post above, I don't see any need for a randomization aspect ... the effects just aren't that powerful as long as they don't stack.

P.P.S. If you want to avoid economic impact, just make sure the potions have a limited shelf life (which they likely do already).

Exactly. The Elixir just needs a line about only having one “Elixir slot” at a time which resets on a long rest, unless you convert spell slots into elixirs.

I’m not really understanding how these Alchemist apologists are justifying the “power” of a randomized minor buff or healing, with something like an Arcane Cannon or a Steel Defender AND Int to melee attack & damage

[Garfunion]

EDIT: I want to touch on the bolded part more. Unless you're using homebrew, the process of crafting anything in 5E is often complicated and prohibitive. Even using Xanathar's (the most generous to the player as far as crafting is concerned) your crafting time for a standard potion of healing is 1 day and 25gp, which following the rules for downtime requires at least 8 hours spent on the task.

I’m going to point out that, at level 10 a normal Artificer will be able to make 4 healing potions a day each costing about 13gp.

But to be honest the alchemist subclass doesn’t get anything significantly tied to their profession. They don’t get any kind of accelerated potion making or cost reduction. They don’t get any unique ways of using alchemy items such as acid or alchemist’s fire.

Deep down the alchemist subclass is just a re-skinned version of the divine soul sorcerer, if the sorcerer devotes their sorcery points on creating additional spell slots and twin metamagic.

[Damon_Tor]

So the new Artificer is a bit of a mixed bag. It seems like the whole class was rigged around making the Battle Smith a decently powerful subclass but it seems they sort of dropped the ball on the other two. I suggest a few minor changes to help things out.

Alchemist: Experimental Elixir
You gain up to [Int Mod] Elixers at the end of a long rest, chosen from the Elixir list (no longer random) as well has having two another optionS. Acid & fire flasks that deal 1d8 damage, 30ft, thrown. At level 5 you get to add your Int to damage.

Without the random roll, the Elixir is equivalent a free first level spell slot. 3 extra first level slots at level 3 would be pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable. Especially because they more directly get TEN extra first or second level spell slots at level 11 with spell storing item.

As for the flasks, what's the point? Your cantrips are better than what you've listed there. Would you waste a level 1 spell slot on a cantrip? Your firebolt and acid splash cantrips are your thrown potions, the artificer explicitly reflavors its spells to be whatever the product of your crafting tools might be, and for an alchemist that means you're throwing (or launching, more likely) potions with those effects.

[MrCharlie]

I think the real problem is that in the current state of the game, our healing scales are really tipped towards the absurd. Out of combat healing has to basically be a full heal to compete with a level 3 druid, as the extreme case. Otherwise, the usefulness of things like potions depends greatly on the campaign.

In a campaign where the party has to split up, take care of parallel tasks, heal between scenes without hour long breaks, and where small out of combat effects are useful (basically-capacity trumps scale), the artificer has a bunch of great powers. Eberron itself fits this to a T-no other class can allow the entire party to alter self, easily give everyone a slow fly speed for vertical access, or give everyone a tool to stabilize someone if they split up in a building. I've DMed a few campaigns, played a few, and Eberron just lends itself to situations where deception, split parties, and getting where you aren't supposed to is important.

That said, in a campaign where those things aren't true, like the forgotten realms where spelunking is a major theme, the alchemist's abilities are pretty useless. No zombie is going to give a damn if you look like Elminister or something in the forgotten realms, but if Merrix D'Cannith walks into a room that matters in Eberron.

That said, free lesser and greater restoration actually do matter a lot. Easily flight is powerful. Free AC bonuses are actually very useful, particularly for level 1 slots.

The Alchemist list is okay though, mostly it's just firmly decent. The 4th level spells are actually pretty damn good though.

The other main problem is they lack a good damage option round per round, and lack the necessary spells to spam damage spells-in addition to not really having them. But I can easily imagine them being very useful as support casters in the right situation, and there are a few tricks I can pull with one already that could really change the game at low level.

The one thing i'd do is give them more options at higher levels. Part of being experimental is that your experimenting. There should be improvements. But I can't think of anything quick to add that would fix that; they do have the temporary HP thing, but it's not really that much.

Artillerist actually seems like one of the better options, given that alchemists already have lots of support, and Artillierists have the oomph to support this. As half-casters go, they are basically the only ones with boom spells, and they get most of the good single action cast ones. Also, wall of force, always stellar. The cannons just support this. I really don't think there is a single thing wrong with them.

[Anderlith]

Without the random roll, the Elixir is equivalent a free first level spell slot. 3 extra first level slots at level 3 would be pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable. Especially because they more directly get TEN extra first or second level spell slots at level 11 with spell storing item.

As for the flasks, what's the point? Your cantrips are better than what you've listed there. Would you waste a level 1 spell slot on a cantrip? Your firebolt and acid splash cantrips are your thrown potions, the artificer explicitly reflavors its spells to be whatever the product of your crafting tools might be, and for an alchemist that means you're throwing (or launching, more likely) potions with those effects.

An Artillerist gets a turret that has better damage than his cantrips & first level spells

A Battle Smith gets a pet & int to all attacks & damage

That is far & above the usefulness of a single use “maybe better than Cure Wounds potion”

[stoutstien]

I should point out that the lv 9, cast lesser restoration up to five times a day, is completely replaceable by any subclass once you get SSI at 11.

[Damon_Tor]

I’m not really understanding how these Alchemist apologists are justifying the “power” of a randomized minor buff or healing, with something like an Arcane Cannon or a Steel Defender AND Int to melee attack & damage

Frankly, I don't think of this feature in terms of the random potion at all. That's just gravy.

Here's the benefit: These are six level 1 spells you get added to your spells known list for free

One is a slightly better version of cure wounds.
One is Longstrider
One is a half-power shield of faith with no concentration
One is a single-target bless with no concentration
One is a 1/3 power fly with no concentration
One is a reduced duration alter self with no concentration. Breathing underwater, disguises, a +1 1d6 natural weapon

Not only do you get these prepared spells for free every day, but you do not even have to use your own action during combat to apply them. You can pass these out to allies before combat begins and they can apply them to themselves. Or to each other. Have a familiar? He's the potion caddy now. Have a thief? He can apply these potions as a bonus action. That's the benefit of this feature. The part where one day out of eight you get an extra one of the one you want? That's just a bonus. That's not the core feature.

[stoutstien]

Frankly, I don't think of this feature in terms of the random potion at all. That's just gravy.

Here's the benefit: These are six level 1 spells you get added to your spells known list for free

One is a slightly better version of cure wounds.
One is Longstrider
One is a half-power shield of faith with no concentration
One is a single-target bless with no concentration
One is a 1/3 power fly with no concentration
One is a reduced duration alter self with no concentration. Breathing underwater, disguises, a +1 1d6 natural weapon

Not only do you get these prepared spells for free every day, but you do not even have to use your own action during combat to apply them. You can pass these out to allies before combat begins and they can apply them to themselves. Or to each other. Have a familiar? He's the potion caddy now. Have a thief? He can apply these potions as a bonus action. That's the benefit of this feature. The part where one day out of eight you get an extra one of the one you want? That's just a bonus. That's not the core feature.
Currently there is a dispute over if a player under the effects of one EE can benefit from another. If this turns out to be true then alchemist is going to run into issues trying to use the healing EE on anyone that have consumed another one. Nothing in the feature says they fade early for any reason.

[Damon_Tor]

Currently there is a dispute over if a player under the effects of one EE can benefit from another.

Why wouldn't they be able to? IIRC the only thing that prevents drinking two potions is explicitly a variant rule.

[MrCharlie]

Just reading through the thread, and I have to say that having an ability where you receive a randomized potion and have this try to reflect experimentation on the part of the Alchemist really doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Alchemists don't make notes?
Alchemists don't know what components they are mixing?
Alchemists are just so stupid that they throw random components in some vials every morning and then taste them to see what they got?

I'm sorry but whoever designed this mechanism for a class that is "scientific" and performs experiments to discover new potions just missed the mark entirely since logically, it is totally nonsensical (Except perhaps for a chaotic neutral alchemist who worships Tymora and just prays for the good ones ...)

Maybe from a balance perspective, randomization was implemented so the character couldn't just choose the best ones but honestly, from a lore or role play perspective, that mechanism would make far more sense.

P.S. Just looking at the list in the post above, I don't see any need for a randomization aspect ... the effects just aren't that powerful as long as they don't stack.

P.P.S. If you want to avoid economic impact, just make sure the potions have a limited shelf life (which they likely do already).
I would have designed a system in the vein of having a set of really basic potions which the alchemist chooses to make which then get modified by a set of random attributes. For instance, you could have four basic effects....

A. Healing
B. Movement
C. Transformation
D. Morale

The basic effect of A. is healing.
The basic effect of B. is to make you move slightly faster for 1 hour.
The basic effect of C. is to do the alter self thing for 1 minute.
The basic effect of D. is to give you the bless spell.

Each elixer then has a table which randomizes the effect somehow.

The table for A. might like like this;

1. The elixer additionally heals you every minute for 10 minutes.
2. Double the heailng.
3. The elixer grants it's healing as temporary hit points.
4. The elixer goes dormant until you are reduced to 0 hit points.
5. The elixer acts as lesser restoration as well.
6. Nothing changes.

Then, at levels 9 and 15, and you have managed to understand these effects to a degree, and can now choose one (then two) of these effects before rolling.

Hence, there is a random modifier on a known formula which improves, rather than a static formula that the alchemist happened to accidentally mix.

The main problem with what I'm thinking of is that clunkyness of it all. I was originally thinking of modular modifiers, but it's hard to come up with modular modifiers for healing, flight, AC, alter self, etc. that are balanced.

[stoutstien]

Why wouldn't they be able to? IIRC the only thing that prevents drinking two potions is explicitly a variant rule.

The question is over the DMG ettra:
Combining Game Effects (p.252). [W]hen two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them — the most potent one — apply while the durations of the effects overlap. [...] See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.

If the whole EE feature is considered a single class feature they can't stack RAW. Obviously that rule is dumb and most people would disregard it in favor of RTMS but the question stands until clarification is made.

[MrCharlie]

The question is over the DMG ettra:
Combining Game Effects (p.252). [W]hen two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them — the most potent one — apply while the durations of the effects overlap. [...] See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.

If the whole EE feature is considered a single class feature they can't stack RAW. Obviously that rule is dumb and most people would disregard it in favor of RTMS but the question stands until clarification is made.
It's impossible to actually implement the rule though, because there is no "more potent" elixir among resilient and flight, they do different things. Last I checked, there is no way to rule between them.

Also, they are on the same table, but do have different names; one is Experimental Elixir Resilience, the other is Experimental Elixir Flight. It just depends on when you define somethings "name"...but the entire point is to prohibit duplicate effect stacking, so arguably if you can draw that line anywhere in the text except in potency it should be counted as a different magical effect.

[stoutstien]

It's impossible to actually implement the rule though, because there is no "more potent" elixir among resilient and flight, they do different things. Last I checked, there is no way to rule between them.

Also, they are on the same table, but do have different names; one is Experimental Elixir Resilience, the other is Experimental Elixir Flight. It just depends on when you define somethings "name"...but the entire point is to prohibit duplicate effect stacking, so arguably if you can draw that line anywhere in the text except in potency it should be counted as a different magical effect.

I agree completely. I brought it up because it's feasible that it is read a different way.
This is a unique case of a class feature having multiple possible effects that could conceivably be active at once. It's a first.
I'm waiting on an official answer.

[Anderlith]

The question is over the DMG ettra:
Combining Game Effects (p.252). [W]hen two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them — the most potent one — apply while the durations of the effects overlap. [...] See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.

If the whole EE feature is considered a single class feature they can't stack RAW. Obviously that rule is dumb and most people would disregard it in favor of RTMS but the question stands until clarification is made.

It’s pretty much just you dude & you could always Tweet Crawford

[Damon_Tor]

The question is over the DMG ettra:
Combining Game Effects (p.252). [W]hen two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them — the most potent one — apply while the durations of the effects overlap. [...] See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.

If the whole EE feature is considered a single class feature they can't stack RAW. Obviously that rule is dumb and most people would disregard it in favor of RTMS but the question stands until clarification is made.

That's like saying that because a wizard casts both Haste and Jump using his "Spellcasting" class feature, they can't be active at the same time.

Each elixir has its own name: they are distinct game elements.

[Anderlith]

Without the random roll, the Elixir is equivalent a free first level spell slot. 3 extra first level slots at level 3 would be pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable. Especially because they more directly get TEN extra first or second level spell slots at level 11 with spell storing item.

As for the flasks, what's the point? Your cantrips are better than what you've listed there. Would you waste a level 1 spell slot on a cantrip? Your firebolt and acid splash cantrips are your thrown potions, the artificer explicitly reflavors its spells to be whatever the product of your crafting tools might be, and for an alchemist that means you're throwing (or launching, more likely) potions with those effects.

Just so you know,
I reviewed the old Alchemist, & each of these Elixir Options were also Alchemical Salves (or close enough) that the Homunculus could grant to the party members 3 times a day as well as be a fully capable familiar & spit acid at 1d6+2 as a bonus action. So not only did they rip the Homunculus out, they also needed the amount of times you could use the Salve, & also randomized it.

The rest of the Old Alchemist abilities have been broken up & redistributed along their path so I’m not really upset about that. But to gut the Homunculus & then give you one nifty doodad that you can’t even control is bad. They not only need more uses of it out right, they also need a reliable replacement for the utility offered by the Homunculus

[Yakk]

The random potion, to me, reflects the alchemist *experimenting* with new mixtures to learn new things. As a side effect to the ezperimentation, a useful potion is produced; but the potion was not the point of the experiment.

The experimentation is part of the process by which an alchemist recovers her abilities on a long rest. Simply brewing the same mixture and not experimenting doesn't teach the alchemist anything, and wouldn't be sufficient to refresh abilities; instead, it is mildly draining, costing a spell slot.

[Anderlith]

That’s just terrible though. You don’t see wizards making “experimental scrolls” as a by product of their regular learning. You don’t see Clerics having “accidental miracles” as they study deep into their faith. That’s a contrivance.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That’s just terrible though. You don’t see wizards making “experimental scrolls” as a by product of their regular learning. You don’t see Clerics having “accidental miracles” as they study deep into their faith. That’s a contrivance.

There have been several UA encompassing a Wizard who does just that, and Divine Intervention is almost always an accidental miracle considering its terrible chances of working prior to level 20.

You think it's a contrivance, I think it's flavorful. I'm going to repeat something I brought up earlier as well, guaranteed effects usually have lower power levels. Having your no cost once daily one be random allows the effects on that table to be more powerful, which you can make better use of by spending spell slots to create specific ones.

Lets just double back to your suggested fix as well: No, I don't like it. Taking away the random aspect is something that could be argued one way or another with a reasonable case on both sides but with that many extra uses and a choice in effect, I don't see how the ability doesn't just turn into "we all have bottled bless/fly/mini shield of faith". Nobody is going to use those offensive flasks as your cantrips scale better notably through your own subclass feature, which don't affect your elixirs.

It is, in my opinion, a poor solution to what is only a perceived problem. The feature you've suggested is such a large buff and I can't wrap my head around why it would be necessary. If you are dead set on moving in this direction, might I suggest tying it to proficiency bonus instead?

Even better, when the feature would allow them to create additional elixirs at the end of a long rest they can instead choose the effects of those additional elixirs (the first is still random) to show that, with their experimenting out of the way and the efficiency they've developed through this morning crafting that they are skilled enough to create exact formulas that they expect to use in that day.

[Anderlith]

snip

{Scrubbed}

Look at it this way, before the Official release, the Alchemist was still seen as an even keeled yet not very overtly powerful subclass. Instead of a randomized Elixir that you only had one use for, they instead had a flying Homunculus that could spit acid at 1d6+2 damage as a bonus action, or apply heals/buffs (some of which were arguably stronger than the Elixirs effects) 3 times a day.

So not only did the Alchemist loose their built in familiar, but the utility & options that said familiar gave were slashed down to a single use that you can’t even determine the nature of.

Explain how that makes sense

[ProsecutorGodot]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
Look at it this way, before the Official release, the Alchemist was still seen as an even keeled yet not very overtly powerful subclass. Instead of a randomized Elixir that you only had one use for, they instead had a flying Homunculus that could spit acid at 1d6+2 damage as a bonus action, or apply heals/buffs (some of which were arguably stronger than the Elixirs effects) 3 times a day.

So not only did the Alchemist loose their built in familiar, but the utility & options that said familiar gave were slashed down to a single use that you can’t even determine the nature of.

Explain how that makes sense

{Scrubbed} I can see we're not having a productive discussion here, so I'll leave it at this: Your opinion of the class and my opinion of the class seem to differ. I think it's a thematic way to handle it and I also believe that despite views that it might be underwhelming that no party would really be upset at having an Alchemist tag along with them. The Elixir being random doesn't bother me, the class looks infinitely more interesting to me now that the homunculus isn't tethered to it and I wouldn't want to make sweeping changes to the feature any time soon.

[Anderlith]

snip

I’m just saying five paragraphs to say “it’s thematic if you squint & don’t use logic” is a bit long winded.

Let’s double back to the big issue. The Alchemist used to have all of the same Elixir options but could use them three times a day, as well as consistently good ranged acid damage as a bonus action plus a Homunculus pet. They took ALL of that away & didn’t really give them much in return. Excluding contrived gaslighted “thematics”, how do you justify such a heavy loss of options, power & versatility?

[ProsecutorGodot]

I’m just saying five paragraphs to say “it’s thematic if you squint & don’t use logic” is a bit long winded.

One paragraph was to explain how I thought it was thematic, three were to critique your original change and offer alternatives. One was put as an example that random wizards and clerics do exist.

[Anderlith]

snip

Again, not the point. {Scrubbed}

[ProsecutorGodot]

Again, not the point. Answer the question. {scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

[Anderlith]

snip

You could try convincing me by answering the question instead of posting about perceived slights

[ProsecutorGodot]

You could try convincing me by answering the question instead of posting about perceived slights

I did answer the question, several times. Repeatedly.

EDIT: Just to make things more clear, the random aspect associated with a table of effects generally allows those effects to have a greater power budget. The Experimental Elixir is in most ways superior to the Homunculus (which isn't gone if you did want to use it) and has twice as many effects. The only effects that the elixir shares with the homunculus is granting a flying speed, as well as the temp HP which is something ALL of the Elixir grant past level 9.

One of the major complaints that I recall from the Alchemist in the UA was that it was not just frontloaded but too focused on the Homunculus, both of those issues have been resolved by giving them better elixirs and spreading their use of them out along their career. All of their other features were buffed as well, Alchemical Savant granting additional damage bonuses and Chemical Mastery including a free use of Heal as an option, good since Greater Restoration isn't always going to see use but a free use of Heal just might.

The final part about the homunculus is that it never gained additional uses of its buffs (reviving it noted that it returns to life with its hit points restored, not its salve) you were hard capped at 3 for your entire career while the Elixir was given an ability to scale with your spell slots.

[Kane0]

Would have been nice for WOTC to release more details on the artificer’s survey, those details could have gone a long way to explaining

[Anderlith]

snip

This right here. You said you like not having the Homunculus, which is fine, whatever. But how do you justify all of this?

Let’s double back to the big issue. The Alchemist used to have all of the same Elixir options but could use them three times a day, as well as consistently good ranged acid damage as a bonus action plus a Homunculus pet. They took ALL of that away & didn’t really give them much in return. Excluding contrived gaslighted “thematics”, how do you justify such a heavy loss of options, power & versatility?

[Greywander]

If I might interject a few different possible solutions.

Alchemists get proficiency with the herbalism kit at 3rd level, like in the UA.

You get a random elixir after a short rest, rather than just a long rest.

Alchemical Savant gives a bonus to any spell dealing the appropriate damage. It no longer needs to be an artificer spell, and it doesn't need to be cast via alchemists supplies.

Restorative Reagent gives more options for elixir benefits. Instead of temp HP, the drinker can either end one spell affecting them, or gain a +2d4 bonus to the next saving throw they make in the next 10 minutes. Should this be chosen when the elixir is created, or when the elixir is consumed? Created is more logical, consumed is more useful.

Chemical Mastery gives you toxic blood. When an enemy hits you with a melee attack while within 5 feet of you, they take poison (or acid?) damage equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum of 1). This benefit extends to anyone who drinks one of your elixirs and lasts for 1 minute.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Would have been nice for WOTC to release more details on the artificer’s survey, those details could have gone a long way to explaining

Agreed, in general I'd like to see most survey results because I do like to know what influences their design in regards to feedback. Do they take claims that a class is too frontloaded with a large or small degree of weight? I'm curious to know.


This right here. You said you like not having the Homunculus, which is fine, whatever. But how do you justify all of this?

Let’s double back to the big issue. The Alchemist used to have all of the same Elixir options but could use them three times a day, as well as consistently good ranged acid damage as a bonus action plus a Homunculus pet. They took ALL of that away & didn’t really give them much in return. Excluding contrived gaslighted “thematics”, how do you justify such a heavy loss of options, power & versatility?

I'll repeat from my edit since you probably missed it: The only effects that the elixir shares with the homunculus is granting a flying speed, as well as the temp HP which is something ALL of the Elixir grant past level 9.

I don't know where you're getting information that tells you that the homunculus had all the same elixir options. In case you need a refresher on what the homunculus had, it could use these three salves.

Buoyancy. The target gains a flying speed of 10 feet for 10 minutes.
Inspiration. The target feels giddy and effective, gaining advantage on certain ability checks in the next hour. The target chooses the checks before or after rolling. The magic runs out after the target has used it on a number of checks equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1).
Resilience. The target gains a number of temporary hit points equal to 2d6 + your Intelligence modifier.

And the only one of those three that didn't transfer to an Elixir was Inspiration. All of your Elixirs gain the benefit of Resilience starting at level 9.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed is that the expanded spell list for Alchemist has also improved quite a bit. The class just looks better, they lost a bonus action 1d6+2 acid damage attack and inspiration. They gained a versatile potion (5 new options) an expanded list of elements to add Int to damage as well as better spells.

[Anderlith]

Would have been nice for WOTC to release more details on the artificer’s survey, those details could have gone a long way to explaining
I would love this

If I might interject a few different possible solutions.

Alchemists get proficiency with the herbalism kit at 3rd level, like in the UA.

You get a random elixir after a short rest, rather than just a long rest.

Alchemical Savant gives a bonus to any spell dealing the appropriate damage. It no longer needs to be an artificer spell, and it doesn't need to be cast via alchemists supplies.

Restorative Reagent gives more options for elixir benefits. Instead of temp HP, the drinker can either end one spell affecting them, or gain a +2d4 bonus to the next saving throw they make in the next 10 minutes. Should this be chosen when the elixir is created, or when the elixir is consumed? Created is more logical, consumed is more useful.

Chemical Mastery gives you toxic blood. When an enemy hits you with a melee attack while within 5 feet of you, they take poison (or acid?) damage equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum of 1). This benefit extends to anyone who drinks one of your elixirs and lasts for 1 minute.

These are some good ideas. Let me kill them over a bit before I give feedback


Snip

I’m sorry I thought you would intuit that Resilience was replaced by the Heal, & Inspiration was replaced by the Guidance. Not really such a sticking point for me. So what else do they get to replace a Homunculus & three uses daily? Two other options for the randomizer? That doesn’t seem fair.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I’m sorry I thought you would intuit that Resilience was replaced by the Heal, & Inspiration was replaced by the Guidance. Not really such a sticking point for me. So what else do they get to replace a Homunculus & three uses daily? Two other options for the randomizer? That doesn’t seem fair.

I don't "intuit" a statement that says "all the same options" to mean "all the same options, except twice as many with 5 new options" because that's not what you said.

And again, I apologize for putting it in an edit but my previous comment has this covered as well:

EDIT: Another thing I noticed is that the expanded spell list for Alchemist has also improved quite a bit. The class just looks better, they lost a bonus action 1d6+2 acid damage attack and inspiration. They gained a versatile potion (5 new options) an expanded list of elements to add Int to damage as well as better spells.

And you keep sticking on that three daily uses thing when they still get three (or more!) daily uses. They gain an additional use at 6th and 15th level. They can also create more elixirs using spell slots. They're able to have more uses than the Homunculus.

Every single one of their features does more and you continue to claim that they've lost things. I don't understand.

[Anderlith]

snip

It’s not “more” when you have to pay for them. I don’t mind them getting to convert spell slots into Elixirs. But they should have a handful to burn in the beginning before they have to make that decision. Also, does a few more options REALLY count for much? I really don’t think it does

[ProsecutorGodot]

It’s not “more” when you have to pay for them. I don’t mind them getting to convert spell slots into Elixirs. But they should have a handful to burn in the beginning before they have to make that decision. Also, does a few more options REALLY count for much? I really don’t think it does

They end up with the same amount of free uses as the Homunculus does. You compared it yourself to the other classes who also have to pay for additional uses and neither of them have "more" uses of their 3rd level feature than the Alchemist does at any level.

When you claim that they've lost something, evidence that they've actually gained something does count for quite a bit. The only thing that you can't replicate with the new Alchemist is the Inspiration Salve. Every single other feature (including the Homunculus) is something available to the released version, and the released version also gained more features.

You don't like those new features, that's fine, but there is no argument whatsoever to be made that they've lost more than they gained. The release version does more things, it does the things that the UA did better. It actually practices alchemy in the alchemist subclass.

[Garfunion]

Ok, i’ve looked at the other archetypes of the Artificer and the alchemist is the only one that doesn’t have a bonus action feature. What if using an Experimental Elixir only requires the use of a bonus action instead of an action? Would that be to much?

[Mjolnirbear]

In addition, the elixir, when you spend a spell slot, can be more efficient (and is at 9th)

You get *alter self* and *fly* with lower-level spell slots, assuming you don't need the increased duration of the actual spell. You have concentration-free versions *Bless* and *Shield of Faith*. And you can pass the casting time onto others, perfect for an ambush.

That's at 3rd. At 9th, each first-level spell slot you spend gets these first-level spells **plus** à 2nd-level *false life*. That's a big increase.

What the alchemist is is flexible. He can even take an infusion, get a homonculous, and the homunculous can administer the elixir without the meat shield needing to give up its attacks, perfect for inside combat. Take *find familiar* and have two buffing minions.

Actions he doesn't need to buff are actions he can use to attack.

The only thing you lose is acid spittle. And if damage were the only metric by which someone is good, no one would play bards.

They gave each subclass clearly different identities. Alchemist is pure support; artillerist support+blasting, and battlesmith support+melee. It's ok if you think alchemist should have more damage, but that should be your argument since "lost everything" is objectively not true.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Ok, i’ve looked at the other archetypes of the Artificer and the alchemist is the only one that doesn’t have a bonus action feature. What if using an Experimental Elixir only requires the use of a bonus action instead of an action? Would that be to much?

Now that's a much better point to make, I had been thinking it was strange that they lost a built in bonus action. My guess as to why is because Healing Word, Flaming Sphere and Mass Healing Word were added to their expanded spell list. All of those spells use their bonus action and compliment their class features nicely.

Hard to say whether it would be too much with that in mind, my gut tells me it would probably be fine.


What the alchemist is is flexible. He can even take an infusion, get a homonculous, and the homunculous can administer the elixir without the meat shield needing to give up its attacks, perfect for inside combat. Take *find familiar* and have two buffing minions.

Unforuntely, I'm pretty sure that the Homunculus is unable to administer the elixirs. It runs into two problems (one of which I've only just noticed, which is a very strange restriction) in that during combat the Homunculus can only take the actions in its stat block or the Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, or Search action. No use object action here.

The second is that administering the elixir to another target requires them to be incapacitated. That is a major criticism I would make.

[Garfunion]

One more additional note for the alchemist. Out of all the spells the alchemist has access to, only one spell does necrotic damage. Why couldn’t they have given the Artificer chill touch cantrip?

[Contrast]

And you can pass the casting time onto others, perfect for an ambush.

Or to put that another way - only useful for an ambush as otherwise the action economy is terrible.

[stoutstien]

Now that's a much better point to make, I had been thinking it was strange that they lost a built in bonus action. My guess as to why is because Healing Word, Flaming Sphere and Mass Healing Word were added to their expanded spell list. All of those spells use their bonus action and compliment their class features nicely.

Hard to say whether it would be too much with that in mind, my gut tells me it would probably be fine.



Unforuntely, I'm pretty sure that the Homunculus is unable to administer the elixirs. It runs into two problems (one of which I've only just noticed, which is a very strange restriction) in that during combat the Homunculus can only take the actions in its stat block or the Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, or Search action. No use object action here.

The second is that administering the elixir to another target requires them to be incapacitated. That is a major criticism I would make.

That's a good catch on the only allowed to give it to another if they are incapacitated.

On the subject of the homunculus, it is not the use an item action IF the elixis are considered magical.

[CyphusBlue]

What about letting them learn 2 elixirs automatically at 9 and 15 and replacing them with new ones (to maintain the d6 roll).

Say at 9th
Resistance. The drinker gains resistance to acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage. The drinker determines the effect which lasts for 10 minutes.

Stubborn. The drinker gains advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened for 1 hour.

and 15th
Champion. The drinker gains resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage for 10 minutes.

Vim. The first time the drinker would drop to 0 hit points as a result of taking damage, the drinker instead drops to 1 hit point, and the elixir's effect ends. The elixir has no effect on effects that would kill the drinker instantaneously without dealing damage. The elixir's effect ends after 4 hours.

[Damon_Tor]

Let’s double back to the big issue. The Alchemist used to have all of the same Elixir options but could use them three times a day, as well as consistently good ranged acid damage as a bonus action plus a Homunculus pet. They took ALL of that away & didn’t really give them much in return. Excluding contrived gaslighted “thematics”, how do you justify such a heavy loss of options, power & versatility?

1. The Homunculus' salves were not as good as the new elixirs. Buoyancy/Flight is the same in both versions, but Inspiration is significantly worse than Boldness and the Resilience salve grants only temporary hitpoints, while the Healing elixir actually provides healing. And of course the elixirs have three additional options.
2. The salves didn't have the flexibility of being able to convert spell slots into more uses. 3 uses a day was all you got.
3. The salves were tied to a relatively fragile summon: if it goes down before you get all 3 uses per day then you need to spend a spell slot to get them back. The elixirs not only don't have this problem, they took it the other way: they aren't even dependent on you. If you fall in battle your allies can continue to use the elixirs without issue.
4. The alchemist's bonus spells are much better on release. Purify Food and Drink was replaced with Healing Word. Web was moved to the general artificer spell list and alchemist's got Flaming Sphere. Instead of Create Food and Water and Stinking Cloud they got Gaseous Form and Mass Healing Word.
5. Alchemical Savant's bonus to damage rolls was buffed, applying to fire and necrotic damage as well as acid and poison.
6. At 9th level your elixirs grant 2d6+IntMod temp hp on top of their other effects. The salves never received such a boost.
7. The class as a whole got significantly buffed in the mid levels. Flash of Genius at 7th level, An extra infusion at 10th level, moving the SSI to 11th level, spreading the extra attunements out at levels 10, 14 and 18.

[Anderlith]

snip
You continue to jump through hoops. Burning spell slots to get more uses when they used to be free is costing them spell slots. Taking the Homunculus costs them an Infusion now. Also, as stated the Alchemist has no bonus action economy which they used to have by having it spit acid at a reliable 1d6+2. So now you’ve spent all your spell slots & an Infusion & only then do you even start to resemble the UA Alchemist. Don’t be pedantic.

Ok, i’ve looked at the other archetypes of the Artificer and the alchemist is the only one that doesn’t have a bonus action feature. What if using an Experimental Elixir only requires the use of a bonus action instead of an action? Would that be to much?
I like this. This would go a long way & I do think they need more bonus action options, but remember, most people would probably just pass the Elixir to whoever for them to use it themselves.

Something I’m very surprised about is the lack of poisons & explosives/thrown alchemy items. If they had something like “poisoned touch” that used a bonus action to add a bit of poison damage to a weapon every round would be useful

[stoutstien]

To sum up alchemist:
Cons
- randomness of feature for free use 1-3 times a day
- limited direct damage options.
- unclear if an individual can have multiple different EE effects active at once.
- you cannot administer an EE to someone unless the target is unconscious.
- if effects are magical they cannot be used with fast hands, haste additional action, and can be dispelled.
- action economy can be clunky without party cooperation.

PROs
- none of the EE are bad and will find a use for them most days.
- getting up to three free uses of the EE a day is powerful for spell slot longevity
- they stack with similar effects. The boldness and resilience stand out as huge boosts.
- if the EE are magical they fall under the use magic item action which has its own benefits
- acid is one of the best damage types to deal and one of the hardest to find Resistance against.
- with no immediate use of a bonus action and limited stats needed grabbing a race or feat to increase flexibility is easy.
- what you lack in flat out HP recover you make up with mitigation. Getting your front line fighter, paladin, barbarian into the only crits hit category will prevent more damage than any healing word.
- you are part rogue, bard, paladin, cleric, and wizard while simultaneously making each other party member better at their own rolls and roles.
- when In doubt, stick someones head in a bag of holding and punch a hole in it with a dagger.

[Damon_Tor]

Something I’m very surprised about is the lack of poisons & explosives/thrown alchemy items.

Your Firebolt and Acid Splash and other cantrips are your thrown alchemy items.


"As an artificer, you use tools when you cast your spells. When describing your spellcasting, think about how you're using a tool to perform the spell effect... When you cast poison spray, you could fling foul chemicals or use a wand that spits venom."

[Anderlith]

Your Firebolt and Acid Splash and other cantrips are your thrown alchemy items.


"As an artificer, you use tools when you cast your spells. When describing your spellcasting, think about how you're using a tool to perform the spell effect... When you cast poison spray, you could fling foul chemicals or use a wand that spits venom."

Yes & an Artillerist can use a wand/cannon to cast Scorching Ray too, but he still gets his Cannon too

[Teaguethebean]

Aren't you the guy who said spell storing item was weak? Seems like this just isn't the class for you.

[Anderlith]

Aren't you the guy who said spell storing item was weak? Seems like this just isn't the class for you.

Look at my sig. this class is very much for me. Just because I disagree with things doesn’t mean I should stay way from it. I’m trying to effect change on something I care about.

[WadeWay33]

I think maybe if Alchemist got more potions and a ‘Greater Potions’ table it would work better compared to the other subclasses. I am going to work on that homebrew soon, along with some other subclasses for Artificer.

EDIT: Wording

[ProsecutorGodot]

You continue to jump through hoops. Burning spell slots to get more uses when they used to be free is costing them spell slots. Taking the Homunculus costs them an Infusion now. Also, as stated the Alchemist has no bonus action economy which they used to have by having it spit acid at a reliable 1d6+2. So now you’ve spent all your spell slots & an Infusion & only then do you even start to resemble the UA Alchemist. Don’t be pedantic

For the last time, they do NOT burn spell slots to match the 3 free uses that the homunculus had.

When you reach certain levels in this class, you can make more elixirs at the end of a long rest: two at 6th level and three at 15th level. Roll for each elixir’s effect separately. Each elixir requires its own flask.

It's CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, written down in their class feature, they gain more uses of their 3rd level feature than the other subclasses AND the UA variant. Like I mentioned before, one of the major criticisms I recall from the UA is that after they got their homunculus at 3rd level they didn't gain very much at later levels. Spreading their additional uses along their levels and making the elixir effects both broader and stronger was, in my opinion, a very deliberate response to that criticism. Top that off with the fact that all of their later level features received what I would consider substantial buffs and I'm all but certain of that. The Alchemist UA was clearly frontloaded (you effectively reached your peak performance at 3rd level), it no longer is.

Clearly you are unhappy with this Artificer iteration, if it would please you more just continue to use the UA version at your tables. I think that your unhappiness being almost entirely founded on this random rolled Elixir is a bit off putting because it's completely clouded your ability to evaluate the rest of the subclass having been improved drastically.

Your expanded spell list is better, your Elixir effects are objectively superior because they do almost all the same things and more, your 6th level feature includes many more elements, your 15th level feature includes an additional free spell to cast for when greater restoration won't see use, the base class chassis is improved as well with additional attunement slots, more infusions known (you get to learn 4 additional infusions by level 20 and you start with 1 more than the UA) and Spell Storing Item.

What you "lost" was a Homunculus pet (which is now an infusion, not "lost") and the Inspiration Salve. Look at all you've gained.

[Damon_Tor]

Yes & an Artillerist can use a wand/cannon to cast Scorching Ray too, but he still gets his Cannon too

I think maybe a key problem here is that the alchemist was designed as a healing/support subclass, and that's not what you want from it. Right now it is a very good healing and support class, but you're still complaining, apparently because it lost DPR when it "lost" (it didn't really, since the class as a whole gained an extra infusion) the homunculus.

So here's a thought: if you want an artificer who is a blaster, why not play an artillerist? You can be an artillarist who casts his spells through his alchemy tools: Fireball is a great representation of a potent explosive mixture. The Arcane Cannon explicitly has a flamethrower option, which seems perfect: it's the super-soaker for your homebrew napalm. Craft mundane Alchemists Fire/Acid Vials and launch them with your Catapult spell. And just like the alchemist, cast your Firebolt and Acid Spash cantrips through your alchemy kit. There you go: you're an alchemist with all the features you want.

[stoutstien]

Hmm the artillerist's cannon detonation is a actually pretty solid for a lv 1 slot.
3d8 force damage Dex save for 1/2 within 20 feet is a huge area.

Not a bad use of an action after you get a few rounds of tanking from a small flamethrower with plate level AC and as much Hp as the party wizard.

[Anderlith]

snip

{Scrubbed} I’m going to move past that.


I think maybe a key problem here is that the alchemist was designed as a healing/support subclass, and that's not what you want from it. Right now it is a very good healing and support class, but you're still complaining, apparently because it lost DPR when it "lost" (it didn't really, since the class as a whole gained an extra infusion) the homunculus.

So here's a thought: if you want an artificer who is a blaster, why not play an artillerist? You can be an artillarist who casts his spells through his alchemy tools: Fireball is a great representation of a potent explosive mixture. The Arcane Cannon explicitly has a flamethrower option, which seems perfect: it's the super-soaker for your homebrew napalm. Craft mundane Alchemists Fire/Acid Vials and launch them with your Catapult spell. And just like the alchemist, cast your Firebolt and Acid Spash cantrips through your alchemy kit. There you go: you're an alchemist with all the features you want.

I don’t want the Alchemist to be a blaster. I’m just saying that they a had a certain amount of versatility & options that have been replaced by (to me) subpar stand ins.

[ProsecutorGodot]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

You think I'm being unreasonable, when I came in here trying to have a discussion with you and every point I make is shot down as pedantry and meaningless words? I answer your questions and am told I'm jumping through hoops and somehow avoiding the questions I've been answering.


I don’t want the Alchemist to be a blaster. I’m just saying that they a had a certain amount of versatility & options that have been replaced by (to me) subpar stand ins.
They've gained more versatility in their options and more options for all of their features. Your opinion of that doesn't change that it's an improvement.

[Anderlith]

snip

I haven’t done anything to you. {Scrubbed}

[Teaguethebean]

I haven’t done anything to you. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

In the OP it says feel free to critique. So how is he working against the thread? I understand disagreeing but you must understand you asked for the criticism.

Edit: Spelling and Grammar

[Mjolnirbear]

I haven’t done anything to you. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Sorry what?

You: alchemist bad
Godot: no, here's why
You: you're wrong, also you're not listening
Godot: here are point-by-point reasons why the alchemist is fine
You: stop dodging my point and being antagonistic. Also, you're off topic so kindly shove off

If you want yes-men, take the discussion somewhere where everyone agrees with you. You don't post it in a public forum open to anyone with an opinion. Godot has addressed each point you've made with examples, and you by contrast keep repeating your beef with alchemist, not listening, not refuting Godot's points, and accusing others of being antagonizing simply because they don't agree.

Godot has at best expressed frustration and annoyance at your refusal to respond in a rational matter to the points he makes, and it took time for that to happen; you are the one being antagonistic

[Anderlith]

In the OP it says feel free to critique. So how is he working against the thread? I understand disagreeing but you must understand you asked for the criticism.

Edit: Spelling and Grammar

He isn’t critiquing he is denying that any kind of fix is warranted. It’s like asking someone, here is a pie, how does it taste? Good? Bad? More sugar? less crust? Etc. & he is just saying “I don’t like pie” he isn’t critiquing he is just saying that it’s wrong. {Scrubbed}

[Teaguethebean]

He isn’t critiquing he is denying that any kind of fix is warranted. It’s like asking someone, here is a pie, how does it taste? Good? Bad? More sugar? less crust? Etc. & he is just saying “I don’t like pie” he isn’t critiquing he is just saying that it’s wrong. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

No he is saying the pie is good I feel like you don't need to edit the recipe and then you are claiming that he is wrong and it needs an edit despite him providing reasons he is satisfied with the pie.

[Anderlith]

No he is saying the pie is good I feel like you don't need to edit the recipe and then you are claiming that he is wrong and it needs an edit despite him providing reasons he is satisfied with the pie.

{Scrubbed}

[Teaguethebean]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

But you asked for criticism? How is his criticism against the spirit of the thread?

[Anderlith]

But you asked for criticism? How is his criticism against the spirit of the thread?

It’s not criticism.{Scrubbed} I’m open to any discussion talking about changing/adding etc. but to come into the thread & argue against the idea behind it, is wrong. It’s not logical. Again I point to the example of “Would this behavior be acceptable in a ‘Let’s Fix Dual Wielding’ thread?”

[stoutstien]

It’s not criticism. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} I’m open to any discussion talking about changing/adding etc. but to come into the thread & argue against the idea behind it, is wrong. It’s not logical. Again I point to the example of “Would this behavior be acceptable in a ‘Let’s Fix Dual Wielding’ thread?”

Isn't that just circular reasoning? the entire question of that anything needs to be changed at all is a valid question seeing how the book is only been out for a few days it has not seen any table time.

[Teaguethebean]

Again I point to the example of “Would this behavior be acceptable in a ‘Let’s Fix Dual Wielding’ thread?”
I wouldn't mind someone trying to argue it is balanced because I could use my experience in game to refute their claim rather quickly with a show of 1 attack not scaling as a viable option for a bonus action at higher levels and how it is weaker than the other styles but it wouldn't cause problems. The fact that asking if the fix is necessary can't be refuted makes a show to the possibility no fix is needed.

[Anderlith]

Isn't that just circular reasoning? the entire question of that anything needs to be changed at all is a valid question seeing how the book is only been out for a few days it has not seen any table time.

Only to an extent. He presented his opinion, & then spent countless posts pressing the issue, which is counter to the spirit of the thread


I wouldn't mind someone trying to argue it is balanced because I could use my experience in game to refute their claim rather quickly with a show of 1 attack not scaling as a viable option for a bonus action at higher levels and how it is weaker than the other styles but it wouldn't cause problems. The fact that asking if the fix is necessary can't be refuted makes a show to the possibility no fix is needed.

& I refuted him, but he pressed on

[ProsecutorGodot]

I haven’t done anything to you. You control (or not) yourself. It’s YOUR opinion that Alchemist is fine, this is a thread about how it isn’t.

It's kind of funny to me that you've labeled my case as an opinion (correctly, mind you) but stated your opinion as an objective fact here. It's your opinion that it isn't fine. Neither of us have any real basis of fact behind opinions regarding whether or not the class is fine. Just because your opinion differs from mine doesn't lend it any more weight.

What we can support with facts is that the Alchemist has only gained features in this release version, it's not an opinion. The quality of those features isn't relevant, they do more now. Your claims that they've lost features are unfounded.


Only to an extent. He presented his opinion, & then spent countless posts pressing the issue, which is counter to the spirit of the thread
I've done my best to offer alternatives where appropriate and I've been as careful as I can to frame my responses as my own opinions rather than an objective fact. Despite that, all you've done is act condescending towards me and ignore my arguments to support my opinions.

[Theodoxus]

Not only do you get these prepared spells for free every day, but you do not even have to use your own action during combat to apply them. You can pass these out to allies before combat begins and they can apply them to themselves. Or to each other. Have a familiar? He's the potion caddy now. Have a thief? He can apply these potions as a bonus action. That's the benefit of this feature. The part where one day out of eight you get an extra one of the one you want? That's just a bonus. That's not the core feature.

I didn't read the other pages after skimming and seeing they were just flaming each other - but did anyone point out that this is expressly NOT what you can do?

Experimental Elixir: Roll on the Experimental Elixir table for the elixir's effect, which is triggered when someone drinks the elixir.

You don't know what you made, until someone drinks it. These are standard potions where you get a sip and can determine it. You might want to give your sniper buddy an EE of flying, but when he quaffs it, he's healed instead.

Now, if you're talking about the ones created with spell slots, you're golden. But the random one? no dice.

[stoutstien]

I didn't read the other pages after skimming and seeing they were just flaming each other - but did anyone point out that this is expressly NOT what you can do?

Experimental Elixir: Roll on the Experimental Elixir table for the elixir's effect, which is triggered when someone drinks the elixir.

You don't know what you made, until someone drinks it. These are standard potions where you get a sip and can determine it. You might want to give your sniper buddy an EE of flying, but when he quaffs it, he's healed instead.

Now, if you're talking about the ones created with spell slots, you're golden. But the random one? no dice.

Triggered≠ determined effects. Since you know what you rolled then you know the effects. Say they are each different color or something.

[Anderlith]

snip
{Scrubbed} I never stated my opinion was fact. I merely stated that this thread runs counter to your opinion.

I didn't read the other pages after skimming and seeing they were just flaming each other - but did anyone point out that this is expressly NOT what you can do?

Experimental Elixir: Roll on the Experimental Elixir table for the elixir's effect, which is triggered when someone drinks the elixir.

You don't know what you made, until someone drinks it. These are standard potions where you get a sip and can determine it. You might want to give your sniper buddy an EE of flying, but when he quaffs it, he's healed instead.

Now, if you're talking about the ones created with spell slots, you're golden. But the random one? no dice.

That was my original interpretation as well. I’d say it’s pretty ambiguous. Since a DM could theoretically be the one rolling for the random Elixir.

[stoutstien]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} It may be the reason for the failure in communication. I never stated my opinion was fact. I merely stated that this thread runs counter to your opinion.


That was my original interpretation as well. I’d say it’s pretty ambiguous. Since a DM could theoretically be the one rolling for the random Elixir.

It's actually pretty hilarious if it is ruled that way.
" You're hurt! Drink this."
"What is it?"
*Shrugs*

[ProsecutorGodot]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} It may be the reason for the failure in communication. I never stated my opinion was fact. I merely stated that this thread runs counter to your opinion.
Scrubbed


That was my original interpretation as well. I’d say it’s pretty ambiguous. Since a DM could theoretically be the one rolling for the random Elixir.

I disagree.

Beginning at 3rd level, whenever you finish a long rest, (1a)you can magically produce an experimental elixir in an empty flask you touch. (1b)Roll on the Experimental Elixir table for the elixir’s effect, (2)which is triggered when someone drinks the elixir.(3)As an action, a creature can drink the elixir or administer it to an incapacitated creature.
(1a) Explicitly something the Artificer does, not the DM
(1b) Roll to determine effect
(2) The effect is triggered when someone drinks it
(3) The elixir is consumed or administered as an action

I don't see the ambiguity here, you roll on the table, get the effect and the effect is activated when the elixir is consumed.

[Anderlith]

snip

The ambiguity is from the phrase when put together. Is the roll triggered when you create the Elixir, or when it is drank?

[Damon_Tor]

If I had a player who was unhappy with the roll being random for their free elixir I would be okay with giving them the ability to reroll an elixir by rolling one die higher with each reroll, so 1d8 for the first reroll, 1d10 for the second, 1d12 for the third. A roll of 7 or higher explodes, dealing that much damage to you, and the elixir is lost.

Seems pretty on brand to me.

[Habber_Dasher]

It seems like people are trying to argue that the published alchemist is either a straight downgrade or straight upgrade from the U.A., which it's not, it's different. You can argue one is more powerful overall than the other but you have to acknowledge that the subclass has both gained and lost some things.

That being said, I do think the alchemist is probably better off mechanically now. I also think it's too early to really say if it needs anything changed, but there are a few things that concern me.

The first are the healing and alter self elixirs. The healing just doesn't scale all that well later into the game. This makes it the closest thing to a "bad" roll, which I don't think the random daily elixirs should have. Similarly, while alter self has multiple uses, I could definitely see whole adventuring days going by whiteout a real opportunity to use this elixir. Maybe you could just roll a d4 instead, taking those two off of the random table but still having the option to create them.

The other thing is the alchemist's play style just seems sort of... passive. Your defining subclass feature, the thing that sets you apart mostly happens before combat. Maybe if the alchemist could make an elixir with a bonus action and administer it to a (conscious) ally with an action it would feel a little more 'active'.

[Lille]

I feel the need to ask, in no disparaging way, if English is your first language. It may be the reason for the failure in communication. I never stated my opinion was fact. I merely stated that this thread runs counter to your opinion.

The thing is, though, that there isn't a failure to communicate. He's communicating his points perfectly fine, and debating in good faith, which is the whole point of discussions like this.

The appearance of a "failure in communication" is caused by you, ignoring any point being made that might go against your own opinions, while claiming that it's him arguing in bad faith

[Damon_Tor]

It seems like people are trying to argue that the published alchemist is either a straight downgrade or straight upgrade from the U.A., which it's not, it's different. You can argue one is more powerful overall than the other but you have to acknowledge that the subclass has both gained and lost some things.

The order of features has changed, and some features were delayed (UA was frontloaded) but by level 14 the published version is almost strictly superior.

3 free elixirs that all grant 2d6 THp (generally the best feature of the UA homunculus salves) plus another random effect.
The homunculus was turned into an infusion, and the class was given an extra infusion.
Gained the ability to cast heal 1/day
Craft any magic items at 1/4 time 1/2 cost, not just potions
Alchemical Savant applies to fire damage, vastly improving at-will DPR
The Alchemist bonus spells are much better.

I acknowledge that the delay in some features has occured, but I think it would behoove those arguing that the published class is worse than the UA to acknowledge that if it is indeed worse it is only worse at early levels, matches it in the middle and exceeds it late. Once we've agreed on this maybe our discussion can become more meaningful.

[Anderlith]

The thing is, though, that there isn't a failure to communicate. He's communicating his points perfectly fine, and debating in good faith, which is the whole point of discussions like this.

The appearance of a "failure in communication" is caused by you, ignoring any point being made that might go against your own opinions, while claiming that it's him arguing in bad faith

Not at all. He keeps touting his opinion & does seem to address what I’m actually saying. Really though this has gone on far too long

[Kane0]

I do distinctly remember being annoyed that all the artificer subclasses got a pet of some sort and conveying that in the survey, perhaps enough people felt the same way to sway how it was handled

[Damon_Tor]

I do distinctly remember being annoyed that all the artificer subclasses got a pet of some sort and conveying that in the survey, perhaps enough people felt the same way to sway how it was handled

They've said as much in interviews. Frankly I wish the Defender had been an infusion too.

[Anderlith]

I do distinctly remember being annoyed that all the artificer subclasses got a pet of some sort and conveying that in the survey, perhaps enough people felt the same way to sway how it was handled

I was a big fan of it. I’m m just glad they didn’t completely do away with it, though I wish it was a bit better than it is

[MinMaxMunchking]

I was a big fan of it. I’m m just glad they didn’t completely do away with it, though I wish it was a bit better than it is

Fella, you need to be called out on something which is so painfully, obvious you've been doing throughout this whole mess of a thread. The only person whose quotes you've been cutting out completely and replacing with a single word - "snip" - is ProsecutorGodot.

Further, he's been providing opinionated arguments that refute/oppose YOUR opinionated arguments and all you've been doing is posting disparaging and berating comments providing no solid counter-arguments other than constantly repeating "free random elixir is bad" and "muh homunculus" lines.

FACTS:
- Official Alchemist has more useful spells. I've legit never seen anyone casting Purify Food and Drink (UA), for real. Healing Word (official) is much better. Web (UA) is good, but not as good if you don't have Homunculus. That's why I think they put Flaming Sphere (official) in, which is a solid bonus action damage source and also synergizes with Alchemist's level 5 feature better. Stinking Cloud (UA) is good on paper, but in practice, you usually negatively affect a lot of your party members with it too. Mass Healing Word (official) is strictly an upgrade. Create Food and Water (UA) shouldn't be something you have to worry about at lvl9 anyway, even if your DM challenges your party with basic survival needs. Gaseous Form (official) is somewhat situational too, but improved mobility (can squeeze through below locked doors for example) and a "crap I dun wanna die!" panic-button will definitely come up more often than not, even on level 9.
- Experimental Elixir can be super-easily cheesed out (HINT: High Elf, 2 levels of Warlock). Almost everybody these days plays with multiclassing/feats allowed and even WotC have stated they do take optional/variant rules into consideration when balancing the class. I recently posted a poll on my YT Community page - 240+ votes, only 2% play WITHOUT feats/multiclassing. Variant/optional rules is how the game is played almost everywhere and by everyone.
- Want Homunculus? Take Infusion. Sure, it takes up 1 infusion slot and the homunculus is weaker than before, but if you like doing multiple things on your turn, it gives you another bonus action option other than casting Healing Word/Flaming Sphere/Mass Healing Word.
- Alchemical Mastery (6th level UA Alchemist) has been broken down into Alchemical Savant (5th level) & Restorative Reagents (9th level), with the latter also giving a blanket buff to all of your elixirs. In other words, once you hit lvl9, your level 1 spellslots not only provide base Elixir benefits, which are very useful on their own, but also provide 2d6+INT mod temporary hit points. This makes your 4 level 1 spellslots (effectively 12 if you have 2 levels in Warlock) supremely more valuable.
What to do? Well, how about distributing 12 healing elixirs to your squishies in the back to make them much harder to knock out when your party gets surrounded and/or the DM decides to focus-fire on a 50HP Wizard instead of a 100HP Barbarian. Also, that makes EVERYBODY in your party a secondary healer as well. If everyone has a healing elixir and one party member gets dropped to 0 HP, it's much safer and often better in terms of action economy to bring the ally back above 0 HP as fast as possible instead of waiting for Cleric/Druid to cast Healing Word. And all that with just 1 type of elixir - healing. Imagine what you can do with all others? Many wonderful things, especially when you start combining/stacking them with other characters core/subclass features and spells.
- Chemical Mastery is better too, but I'll accept that not many characters get played to lvl15. Still, you have to look at the class as a whole - not every subclass in the game (*cough* Hexblade *cough*) HAS to be frontloaded.

[Teaguethebean]

The only person whose quotes you've been cutting out completely and replacing with a single word - "snip" - is ProsecutorGodot.


Noticed that but I didn't wanna say anything but yeah seems like a clear show of trying to avoid the arguments.

[Anderlith]

snip

I tend to fade in & out of the playground so maybe the etiquette has changed, but I thought it was normal to still “snip” really long quotes like yours & the other guy’s? Most of the other people I quoted were relatively short. Think what you will though, you’re an individual.

As for repeating “muh random” & “muh Homunculus”

My issue isn’t anything else in the class. I like the spell list changes, & I like that they spread out some of the previous iteration’s abilities & gave them an extra something. For the most part, I think it’s bad form to say that most people are going to try to do broke multiclassing to “empower” their options like it’s a given. I REALLY hate that the hexblade, while mechanically good, has terrible fluff, making it seem like the only way to really compete (as a Cha casting melee Warlock) it’s the only way to go. I mean sure you can go Feylock Pact of the Blade (or any other Patron) but you’d be seriously hurting your options. Such as your proposed fix for the Alchemist, “Its not weak if you take a few levels of Warlock”. I think the rest of the abilities an Alchemist gets are gravy, but it needs something more at level 3 than a potion that you can’t effectively prep & only get one of. Alchemist is fairly bonus actionless & it’s one gimmick Elixir in no way compares to the Steel Defender + Int melee Damage, or the Artillerist’s Cannon. I like the Elixirs options. They are basically a cleaned up version of the old list of Salves plus a few new ones. I just want SOMETHING more at level 3 to make it seem alright. They went from having an identity at level 3 with a frontline medic type feel to something that isn’t really anything dynamic. They can support & heal sure, but it’s not like they need to be doing anything. They just sort of pass out Elixirs before combat & cast a cantrip or two. It doesn’t evoke the same feeling

[MinMaxMunchking]

I tend to fade in & out of the playground so maybe the etiquette has changed, but I thought it was normal to still “snip” really long quotes like yours & the other guy’s? Most of the other people I quoted were relatively short. Think what you will though, you’re an individual.
Really, huh?
https://www.screencast.com/t/eHvlwwl42 - literally 3 lines of text and you "snip"
https://www.screencast.com/t/Jkd5bySpClA - 10 lines of text yet you don't "snip".
Do not bull**** the bull****er. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is rapidly losing any value.



As for repeating “muh random” & “muh Homunculus”

My issue isn’t anything else in the class. I like the spell list changes, & I like that they spread out some of the previous iteration’s abilities & gave them an extra something. For the most part, I think it’s bad form to say that most people are going to try to do broke multiclassing to “empower” their options like it’s a given. I REALLY hate that the hexblade, while mechanically good, has terrible fluff, making it seem like the only way to really compete (as a Cha casting melee Warlock) it’s the only way to go. I mean sure you can go Feylock Pact of the Blade (or any other Patron) but you’d be seriously hurting your options. Such as your proposed fix for the Alchemist, “Its not weak if you take a few levels of Warlock”. I think the rest of the abilities an Alchemist gets are gravy, but it needs something more at level 3 than a potion that you can’t effectively prep & only get one of. Alchemist is fairly bonus actionless & it’s one gimmick Elixir in no way compares to the Steel Defender + Int melee Damage, or the Artillerist’s Cannon. I like the Elixirs options. They are basically a cleaned up version of the old list of Salves plus a few new ones. I just want SOMETHING more at level 3 to make it seem alright. They went from having an identity at level 3 with a frontline medic type feel to something that isn’t really anything dynamic. They can support & heal sure, but it’s not like they need to be doing anything. They just sort of pass out Elixirs before combat & cast a cantrip or two. It doesn’t evoke the same feeling

The fact you STILL continue to compare one feature of the class without considering all the other features/spells and options the class has at its disposal is enough proof to me you:
1) Either don't play the game at all and just like to engage in these uninformed theorycrafting e-peen measuring contests
2) Or just don't want/don't care to consider the differences in playstyles enabled by combining different subclass features

Yeah, not everybody is gonna go 2 levels in Warlock to cheese elixirs, but the same can be said about Sorcerer/Warlock multiclasses. Not everybody is an EB mini-gun, but a lot of people are. It's much more likely multiclass combos like that or even something better nobody has figured out yet will be an inevitable outcome at some tables.

[Kane0]

I don’t have a copy of the book, what are the level 3 alchemist features compared to the other two?

[Anderlith]

snip

So let me try to understand you, you are saying that just because someone might coffeelock this class, it shouldn’t get similar power/options/whatever as the other subclasses? Yeah... I’m sure that randomized heal will be just as useful as an Artillerist Cannon.or the constant support & options given by a Steel Defender on top of Int to Attack & Damage...

What do you have to balance out the poor bonus action economy they have comparatively?

[MinMaxMunchking]

So let me try to understand you, you are saying that just because someone might coffeelock this class, it shouldn’t get similar power/options/whatever as the other subclasses? Yeah... I’m sure that randomized heal will be just as useful as an Artillerist Cannon.or the constant support & options given by a Steel Defender on top of Int to Attack & Damage...

What do you have to balance out the poor bonus action economy they have comparatively?

1. Randomized heal? So spending 4-12 spellslots and CHOOSING healing which (on level 9) gives ADDITIONAL temp HP is "randomized" heal? What do you even MEAN bro?
Read the godamn feature from top to bottom and then complain.

"..., and you choose the elixir’s effect from the Experimental Elixir table."

Not to mention increasing someone's movement speed, giving ranged attack character flying speed or simply buffing Fighter's accuracy & saves.

SMH

2. Take Homunculus if you think that not having a non-spell bonus action option is such a detriment to the subclass. It's most likely the best infusion option for Alchemist anyway, because both Artillerist and Battlesmith have their bonus action "pets" already, so I don't see either of those taking Homunculus on top.

But let me guess, you're just gonna "snip" my comment and then start deflecting by not directly adressing my arguments, just like you've been doing with ProsecutorGodot's answers throughout this thread.

People like you is why we can't have nice things - you constantly complain and get nothing done. Ever.

[Dork_Forge]

I don’t have a copy of the book, what are the level 3 alchemist features compared to the other two?

You create a magical elixir, the effect of which you roll for on the table and you can spend slots to create more (when using a slot you choose the effect) vs the turrets and defender/int use of the others. Compared to the UA the abilties are more diffused (the case for all Artificers since 5th is now a subclass ability) but the subclass is certainly more passive than it used to be.

[Anderlith]

Lots of projection here, I don’t know why you’re attacking me personally.

Your answer to the problem of the randomized Elixir is to burn resources to “fix” it? That’s a problem
Your answer to the problem of poor action economy vs the other subclasses is to expend a feature? That’s a problem

I’m not really understanding the new attitude towards snipping. I’m an old hand of the playground & it used to be par for the course. It’s not like the information is deleted. It’s better than “@“ing someone. I’m not doing it to hurt anyone’s feelings. It was just old board etiquette.

[MinMaxMunchking]

Lots of projection here, I don’t know why you’re attacking me personally.

Your answer to the problem of the randomized Elixir is to burn resources to “fix” it? That’s a problem
Your answer to the problem of poor action economy vs the other subclasses is to expend a feature? That’s a problem

I’m not really understanding the new attitude towards snipping. I’m an old hand of the playground & it used to be par for the course. It’s not like the information is deleted. It’s better than “@“ing someone. I’m not doing it to hurt anyone’s feelings. It was just old board etiquette.

{Scrubbed}

2. The feature itself gives you the option to burn a resource - the random effect is a benefit that keeps getting better at higher levels. I don't like random effects either, but this is not just a random effect - not if you don't want it to be, so you do have a modicum of control over it.

If you are looking into it so simplistically and not considering the hundreds of combinations you can use these elixirs with to either buff yourself or your party-members, then our conversation is done. You're clearly not even willing to consider the alternatives if they challenge your preconceived notions even a little bit.

And yes, WotC, once again, said they balance feature based on the fact how people actually play the game. I wouldn't be surprised if they made this feature with Warlock specifically in mind.

Is the feature bad without 2 levels in Warlock? No. Why? Because it provides you with something the other 2 subclasses don't have - versatility, more options, things you don't immediatelly see the benefit of but might prove to be quite a boon in ways that you can't always quantify.

Heck, with the duration of those elixirs and the fact you don't concentrate on any of them, alchemist migth easily be a top tier dungeon-crawling support class.

Games is played in all sorts of ways - just because you don't see the benefits and think the subclass needs improvement based on your opinions, doesn't mean that's the objective truth.

3. I've checked your other recent posts. In this one
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?603130-Thoughts-on-the-new-Artificer&p=24274103#post24274103
you literally said "All the subclass spells are 3rd & above". Somebody immediatelly corrected you and then you finally figured out. This shows me you have very little knowledge of the 5e system, simple as it is. You literally didn't know that the names of those spells don't match with the (perceived, by you) level of those spells. And for some reason, you take it upon yourself to balance a class that has just been released out to the public.

All of these are my OWN opinions and arguments, but mate, just stop it. You're embarrasing yourself, seriously.

[Garresh]

Yall need to calm down. Seriously. I've seen good points on all sides, but you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

The issue with the Alchemist at base is sustainability. I see defenders of it saying it gets the same number of uses as the other classes. While this is technically correct, it's misleading. The turret lasts an hour. You can walk it around with you between fights. The mechadog is up all the time. The potion is single use. This is a power gap.

Now, before I continue dragging alchemist, let's identify where it's strengths lie. For the artillerist, the assumption will be you will always have the turret up, and use spells slots to maintain it. For the Alchemist, the assumption is you will be using your spell slots to make more potions. These potions are in several cases STRONGER than 1st level spell slots. So the Alchemist has a weird sense where it doesn't really gain a strong feature in its own(1 random potion sucks), but rather 6 new spells prepped on its list, some of which are stronger than their level(this is good). Alchemist REQUIRES using spell slots to gain a benefit, whereas the others don't really. The no-slot version of the alchemist is lackluster, but alchemist scales in power with spell slots in a way that the other subclasses don't.

Also, the Alchemist as written IS superior to the UA version, with the exception of losing extra attack. I'll come back to this.

Now if that was it, we'd say it's a fair tradeoff. But let's go down the elixir list and see where the problems start to appear.

1. Healing: This is a better health potion. It occupies a weird space where it's a better use or a first level slot til 5, then your enhanced healing(which the potion doesn't get) makes it a worse use of a slot. Then at level 9 it comes back ahead as a good efficient heal. The issue with it though, is action economy. In combat heals are bad. Out of combat heals are cheap. Healing word is simply better, and so it lacks in both sustaining power and efficiency. It takes an action to use, and that's simply too much.

2. Swiftness: This is just longstrider. Base longstrider doesn't require concentration either. It's even stranger since longstrider is already on your list. Effectively this gives you an extra spell prepped. Nothing more. Still useful though.

3. Resilience: This is definitely a good one. Concentration free +1 AC is good stuff. Drop that on the tank and his incoming damage goes down even more. Due to bounded accuracy, this is much more useful on someone with already high AC. This is very useful.

4. Boldness: On paper, this is pretty good. It's concentration-free bless. But this is deceptive. First of all, you're effectively turning a 1st level spell slot into 1/3 it's power(bless hits 3) in exchange for no concentration. I would venture this could still be a favorable trade. However, it only lasts a minute. This makes it really bad. Because while you gain in concentration slots, you lose an entire turn of attacking. And you CANNOT apply this to other creatures while they are conscious. This means that those best suited to use this(blasters and strikers), lose an entire turn activating it. It's a terrible trade. It's essentially the same issue that makes True Strike bad. Now I won't say it's AS bad, but its bad enough it's a downgrade from using your spell slots normally. This is bad.

5. Flight: This is just great honestly. While it's combat use is *somewhat* limited due to low speed, you can pregame with it before a fight. It's out of combat utility is INSANE. This is an extremely powerful effect.

6. Transformation: This isn't as readily useful as flight. You can pretty much always find use for flight. But it's still quite good. Let's look at the combat stuff first since that's easiest. For combat the claws are great for low level monks. Possibly even fighters and Barbarians vs mundane attack resisting enemies. Swimming is seriously situational. It won't come up often enough to matter in most campaigns. Where it does come up, it will be amazing. Change Appearance is situationally amazing. Disguise self is limited to just you, and alter self is just you and concentration. You can pass these out and do some ridiculous manipulations.


Stepping back for a moment, something that really stands out is flight and transformation. Both of these are normally HEAVILY limited by concentration. As such, getting an entire party to fly is something you don't usually see until near level 10. The Alchemist can do it at 3. Likewise for other deceptions. This cannot be understated. But it's also somewhat situational depending on the campaign.


So where does that leave us? Action economy makes around half of the elixirs weaker than a 1st level spell slot. For comparisons, mecha-doggo is like half a party member unto itself. And the artillerist turret can be thought of as a spiritual weapon with more damage, 4x the range, and 60x the duration. That's at base. It can also act as a sort of better flaming sphere(again, with 60x duration). The elixirs aren't useless. But they're at an entirely different power level relatively speaking. Both other subclasses get effectively a 3rd level spell slot worth of features per activation, if not a 4th or even 5th. Artillery can also serve as a mass-heroism with an hour duration. The defender is hard to rate because it's basically a significantly better version of the beastmaster ranger.

And that brings me to issue #2. Both the battlesmith and the artillerist are good healers in their own way. One hour of heroism+1d8 for the entire party is, well, kind of absurd. The Battlesmith gets roughly the same total healing in jolts that the Alchemist would get from enhanced heals from its level 9 feature. More, if you didn't roll any healing potions. Also, while the Alchemist gets healing words, Battlesmith gets aura or vitality. With the notable exception of free restorations, the two combat subclasses actually compete with the support class for healing. And they DEFINITELY win on damage.

So when you get down to it, the alchemist's power almost entirely hinges on flight and transformation. And those are INSANELY good. Especially at the level you get them. But does it make it feel like it's own unique class? I'm not sure. I don't think it needs a complete overhaul honestly. The biggest gripe is action economy. If the elixirs could be used as a bonus action, or applied to other willing creatures, then a lot of their power would shoot up. At that point, maybe simply increasing the number of potions randomly generated would be enough. I'm not sure. But I do feel that some changes need to be made.

One final note. The Alchemist was improved from the UA. But this is kind of misleading. ALL the classes improved between UA and publishing. But the Alch improved the least, as it's damage basically didn't change between loss of homunculi. It got stronger effects, but needs to invest spell slots or wait until the teens to reach full power. Meanwhile, the other classes hit full power of their base feature at level 3. Anyways, that's just my take.

[Kane0]

Thanks for the breakdown.

Since I dont have the book:
What do you think of instead knowing the random roll of the first brew before using it? How about the later level feature’s healing boost also applying to healing potions made?

Edit: oh and one more, what about some way of recovering potions, some sort of method to get more to bring their overall usage up to the amounts the turret and defenders (presumably >50% of combat time)?
I suppose this is why i liked the resourceless ‘alchemist satchel of tricks’ way back, but oh well

[MinMaxMunchking]

@Garresh

Everything you said makes sense to some extent and yes, some of the elixir effects cannot be easily gauged in terms of power they bring to the table. And even with the healing elixir, it has a varying degree of effectiveness depending on the level of the subclass.

The action economy issues are valid, but they also open up a venue that might not be apparent at first either - if you choose to give these elixirs to allies, THEY can be the ones that choose when to use THEIR actions to take them.

I think it's fair to say you also forgot to mention/ignored that Alchemists STILL have access to a weaker version of the Homunculus. Sure it has less HP, less damage and less options at its disposal, but you still have that trickle of bonus action damage and the thing can deliver spells and now has Evasion as well. Meanwhile, you got a whole another feature which legitimately makes the subclass a)different and unique in its own way b)have more options at its disposal

In a way, I see Homunculus as a must-take or at least top 3 Infusion for Alchemists. People are whining how you have to spend a core class feature to get it, but they forget that the other 2 subclasses already have their own "pet" versions, which basically make Homunculi a trap option for them.

On the other hand, those other 2 subclasses don't have as many options at their disposal just from their level 3 features alone, so they're forced to take some of the other Infusions. I'm not claiming Homunculus is the best Infusion either, but it definitely seems to be one of the best ones for Alchemists.

We can talk about sub-optimal design principles when trap options exist, that's a different issue. However, to say Alchemists don't have as many or as powerful options at their disposal as the other 2 subclasses is, in my opinion, not a correct assesment either.

In practice, I think Alchemists won't feel underwhelming at all compared to Artillerist and Battle Smith. Especially if you decide to multiclass - In my opinion, Alchemist seems to be the best candidate for 2-class, maybe even 3-class builds.

[Garresh]

I don't think they're unplayable, but outsourcing bad action economy doesn't really fix the issue. It just spreads the love.

You're right though. A lot of the issues are reduced by just taking the homunculus. This is probably me being petty/annoyed, but if I play Alchemist, I don't want to have to waste ANY infusions. The reason for that is because I want to support. I want to make items for my party, not "waste" them on myself catching up. But in fairness, the Battlesmith likely has to waste one to activate his INT based attacks since he needs a magic weapon. Only the Artillerist is off the hook on wasted infusions. But that sorta adds to the issue, because the Artillerist is such a good healer. Still, the Alchemist is the best in utility hands down. I just wish it didn't come at such a cost. In a social/stealth driven game the Alchemist is really friggin strong. But the power gap is odd. Essentially the BS or Arti subclasses are still good in a low-combat campaign, while also being pretty excellent in a traditional crawl. Meanwhile, the Alchemist is great in low combat, but fairly bad in a dungeon crawl. At least it's no 4 elements monk or beastmaster ranger. Elixirs 5 and 6 at are 100% worth it. Longstrider and +1 AC are situationally good too, but its going to vary considerably by campaign and context.

TBH, if alch just had bonus actions to activate potions, and got a few extra randoms, it would probably be fine. It would still be behind the other two in combat, but good enough your fighters wouldn't mind spending a bonus action to bless themselves while you can still concentrate on flaming sphere. You could double the randoms, or replaced the count with int mod. Or even tripled them and they'd still not be OP, while feeling strong enough to apply them more liberally. For instance, the healing potion goes from, well, a healing potion, into essentially a Second Wind you can hand out before a fight. Costly but un-breakable bless becomes useful but not OP because it's only affecting one creature. +1 AC will never be broken. It still only lasts 10 minutes. But you'll feel a lot more comfortable if you get a few extras.

I used to really hate the Alchemist, but I am seeing a lot of nuances and niche cases that push up its viability. It's just not quite where it needs to be.

Edit: That's a good point on multiclass. I think it can somewhat be a trap to focus on that. Like Warlock has a lot of issues depending on short rests, but dips amazingly well. However, people downplay the sorcerer when a single level in another class can substantially increase their power. Like, I'm on an aside, but Life Cleric Divine Sorc is an insane support. It already gets the cleric list, but offloading all non-stat related spells frees up a lot of slots. You can take bless and stuff on the cleric. You can twin healing words or do strong burst heal. Twinned Guiding Bolt is just hilarious as far as cost efficiency. And you get armor and stuff. I think I can see the potential here, but in the case of Artificer you'll likely want to dip something else or limit levels in other classes.

[MinMaxMunchking]

@Garresh

Transmutation Wizard with just 3 levels of Alchemist isn't the worst idea ever. Arcane Recovery can give you a couple of slots back once a day after a short rest, which you can use to make a couple more elixirs. All the while being super SAD and keeping up the strong theme of alchemy and arcane experimentation.

Sure, your higher level spells will be delayed, but you will have multiple support/utility capabilities without heavy reliance on spells.

I know many people hate whenever multiclassing is brought into the conversation, but multiclassing usually results in either more versatility or 2+2=5 combinations.

[Garresh]

Eh. People dump on it because they assume all multiclassers are coffeelock munchkins. Most multiclass can serve a character concept if done correctly. I think artificer has good potential there. The progression loss is bad, but it opens up a ton of options for an infiltrator/stealth wizard, especially.

Anyways, back on topic, if you would improve the class, what would you suggest? I think the hate on random is a bit overstated. Wild Sorcerer is honestly pretty strong for instance, but not for everyone. But if we could somewhat normalize potion power...

Anyways thoughts? Or do you think it's complete fine as is?

[stoutstien]

Something i would consider is trading blight for vitriolic sphere.
Pull necrotic damage off of alchemist savant so now we have space for a lighting/ necrotic specialist (it's alive!!!!)

This would give alchemist one good solid aoe that works with savant.

On that note, by my reading I don't think flame sphere works with it at all because no damage is immediately rolled when you cast the spell Or can you 'hold' the bonus damage?

[Anderlith]

Thank you Garresh for putting what I’ve been trying to say in a better light. MinMax seems to think that the obvious solution to Alchemist is to waste levels in another class or waste class features. If the Homunculus is so “obvious” a take by the Alchemist then they should have never parted it.

Also, MinMax. If you can’t see the ustility of a BS or ART taking a Homunculus to scout or offer the same utility as a wizards familiar that’s on you not others. An Artificer being a brass & steel beastmaster type character sounds really cool to me personally. It’s not the Artificers fault the ranger is screwed up. Don’t hold them back just because it steps on the rangers toes, it’s never stopped the Wizard from stepping on the Sorcerer.
Another awesome use of the Homunculus for the Artillerist is to create a tiny turret & hand it off to Homunculus to fly around with while blasting. (The turret is fired remotely by the ART, & is just carried by the Homunculus)

[Theodoxus]

Anyways, back on topic, if you would improve the class, what would you suggest?

I'm working on this today, updating the Artificer to meet the standards of my 4.5 campaign. But I think some things would translate well into a standard 5E game - though I accept they're a fairly radical departure from standard 5E "uncomplicated" spellcasting.

1st, I made the Alchemist a true Vancian caster. You have access to every Alchemist spell, having them be spontaneous casters is quite powerful (something I think is taken for granted in this thread). Instead, you need to memorize each spell into your spell slots. To compensate, I gave the class more slots. The table looks thus:


Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1
3
-
-
-
-


2
3
-
-
-
-


3
4
-
-
-
-


4
4
-
-
-
-


5
5
3
-
-
-


6
5
3
-
-
-


7
5
4
-
-
-


8
5
4
-
-
-


9
5
4
3
-
-


10
5
4
3
-
-


11
5
4
4
-
-


12
5
4
4
-
-


13
5
4
4
2
-


14
5
4
4
2
-


15
5
4
4
3
-


16
5
4
4
3
-


17
6
4
4
3
2


18
6
4
4
3
2


19
6
5
4
3
3


20
6
5
4
3
3





I also let Alchemists spend hit dice to restore spent slots (allotments):
Using Hit Dice

You can use an action at any time to spend hit dice to restore a used spell allotment. For every hit die used, you restore one spell level of a spent spell allotment, restoring the spell cast as well. For example, if you had memorized and cast disguise self and cure wounds you could expend a hit die to recover one or the other. On the other hand, if you'd memorized and cast revivify, it would require expending 3 hit dice to recover that allotment.

The bonus spells from specialization needed to be summarily changed:

Alchemist Spells

Starting at 3rd level, you have new spells added spell list. You can also cast each once before taking a long rest even if you haven't memorized it.

I clarified Experimental Elixir, though I'd love an official ruling to see if my interpretation is correct, or the opposite is true:
"When someone drinks the elixir, roll on the Experimental Elixir table for the elixir's effect." (my corrections) versus:
"Roll of the Experimental Elixir table, that effect happens when someone drinks the elixir." (what others appear to think what it means.)

I also brought in the 4E "Arcane Empowerment", adding it to the end of Magical Tinkering:
"Additionally, you can empower an implement or weapon in two other, temporary ways:
* Impart Energy: You recharge a long rest ability of a magic item. An item can be recharged only once per long rest in this way.
* Augment Energy: You infuse a weapon or an implement with a reservoir of energy that lasts until the end of your next long rest, or until it is expended. The wielder of the item can use a free action after making an attack roll to expend the reservoir of energy to gain either a +2 bonus to hit with the attack, or add damage equal to your proficiency bonus on a successful hit. An implement or weapon can be augmented only once per long rest in this way.

You must spend a short rest with each item in order to empower it. You can have as many empowered items at one time as you have attunement slots, though it does not take up a slot."

I'm still in the process of converting the class; I've only gotten through Alchemist, but I'm seriously considering adding the Extra Attack back to the base class (probably at 6th level), and granting a new ability to the Battle Smith.

[HolyDraconus]

Just popping in with our opinions. Group here has been running a recent campaign using at first the U.A. material which we updated when the book came out. Gotta say, what we wanted as a whole didn't happen. We hit 9th level some time ago. Again, what we about to say is just our opinion.


The class on the whole didn't receive the needed buffs that it should of gotten. It's better than the ranger, but that's honestly not saying much. If we was to improve the class, first thing we would do, for the BASE, mind you, is give more infusions that have wider effects. Replicating Magic Items shouldn't be a first look, it should be a " it just happens to have something we need at this time". And/Or, at higher levels, should be able to infuse already magical items. You're an artificer. Mucking with magical items is literally what you do. At some point learning how to coax even more magic out of an item should be natural. As is, your infusions range from meh to overpriced (why do I need to wait till 14th level to rocket punch someone????), and as a result, most will look towards Replicate Magic Item. That needed to be addressed in future "patches".

Each subclass should of had its own specific infusions on top of the other infusions. Infusions ARE its defining mechanic, not spells, so that just should of been a thing. Why is the Homuculus just a generic infusion? Shouldn't it be strapped to the Alchemist? As is, the BattleSmith can pick it up and now have an ariel Scout that can give to allies cure wounds from a range of 120ft. Seriously, that needs to change. If it was an Alchemist only infusion, it would give them more of an identity. Instead its an Artificer infusion. Speaking of Alchemist. At no point should they NOT be allowed to pick their elixir. The very fact that its random makes, by the rules, their elixirs suck. Sure you can "mitigate" that, but that shouldn't even be a thing to begin with. You can taste a potion to know what it is without wasting it in the rules. The elixir should NOT be random. In any form. Spending a spell slot on an elixir should instead INCREASE the functions of said elixir. It needs to scale in some shape or form, we felt that may be the easiest way of doing such. If you made a healing elixir, spending a slot should increase the healing. Flight? longer and faster flight. Etc. And yes, they should have more uses of elixirs without having to resort to spell slots. Chemical Mastery doesn't have enough to warrant going that far to pick it up. So we aren't.


Artillerist.... honestly we don't know what to do to this thing. Its a blaster. It makes hand cannons. Only thing its missing is the ability to create flying armor to call itself Iron Man. It feels good? We only rolled an alchemist and a Battlesmith, so to be fair, this is outside our scope. On paper it looks.... ok?? More testing needed.


Battle Smith. Defender should be moved to an Infusion. The moment you do though, you realize that the subclass has...nothing. Arcane Jolt being moved from NEEDING the Defender to being a bonus is good. If any subclass feels the lack of Arcane Weapon, this one felt it the hardest. It doesn't have really anything if you moved the Defender to an Infusion. It would be a tax as it stands for the subclass, but if they DID move it, they would HAVE to create something else for it right? Again, why the heavy love towards making the Artificer THE pet class? Arti still has its cannons, Alch LOST Homuculi as a defining feature and is now generic, Battle should have Defender as an infusion and something else to fill in those holes. Anyway, Its the Hexblade all over again, except for Int based characters instead of Cha. Improved Defender seems good, but its a reminder that you went all the way up to 15th level in what feels like a starved dip of a subclass. We will not be surprised that most Wizards multiclass Artificer to 3rd level, specifically THIS subclass, then go the rest pure. It still lacks functions outside of the Defender, and that's just.. eh. We guess you can say its the Champion of Int based subclasses? Eh? EH? eh. If we were to fill them....um... giving them the ability to create fortifications spontaneously like in Fortenite? Allow them to modify a weapon on the fly to tailor to what they are fighting at the time, like dragons bane for dragons or demons bane for demons? Allow them to modify armor in similar fashion? Just some thoughts.


Again, these are just our opinions.

[stoutstien]

Something that I've noticed is the ablity to make any of the common items from the XGtE at lv2 has some gems on it.
Unbreakable arrow - any invulnerable object is just ripe for shenanigans.

Veterans can - infinite non-magical longsword seems like a good way to make money early.

Mystery key- nothing stops you from reattempting on the same lock

Perfume of bewitching- adv on all Cha checks on humanoids lower than CR 1. Or as I like to call it CR radar!

Dark shard/ hat of wizardry- hands free focus.

Cast off armor- mostly for bards wanting to react Bruce all mighty.

Talking doll- you bet I'm going to make a warforged that only communicates with this.

Walloping ammo- RAW you can only have one at a time. Stacks with magic stone.

Enduring spell book- does your DM target items?

Horn of silent alarm- dog whistle to drive a guard crazy.

[Habber_Dasher]

Another thing to consider is the Alchemist can stack buffs like no other single class really can. I just imagine a fighter taking the a resilience elixir before the battle, then taking boldness on their first turn while you caste haste on them and your homunculus caste a spell-stored enlarge. I'm not 100% sure all of this works RAW, but I'm pretty confident some version of it does.

[Dork_Forge]

Something that I've noticed is the ablity to make any of the common items from the XGtE at lv2 has some gems on it.
Unbreakable arrow - any invulnerable object is just ripe for shenanigans.

Veterans can - infinite non-magical longsword seems like a good way to make money early.

Mystery key- nothing stops you from reattempting on the same lock

Perfume of bewitching- adv on all Cha checks on humanoids lower than CR 1. Or as I like to call it CR radar!

Dark shard/ hat of wizardry- hands free focus.

Cast off armor- mostly for bards wanting to react Bruce all mighty.

Talking doll- you bet I'm going to make a warforged that only communicates with this.

Walloping ammo- RAW you can only have one at a time. Stacks with magic stone.

Enduring spell book- does your DM target items?

Horn of silent alarm- dog whistle to drive a guard crazy.

Since you're creating the item with an infusion and Artificers can use infused items as foci it seems RAW and I think RAI that ANY magic item you make with an infusion is a focus and if worn not carried- a hands free focus.

Clockwork amulet is also a solid choice, especially if making a SS build.

[stoutstien]

Since you're creating the item with an infusion and Artificers can use infused items as foci it seems RAW and I think RAI that ANY magic item you make with an infusion is a focus and if worn not carried- a hands free focus.

Clockwork amulet is also a solid choice, especially if making a SS build.

You can but I other classes still need a traditional spell focus.

Yea I looked at the clockwork amulet and forgot to add it.

[Dork_Forge]

You can but I other classes still need a traditional spell focus.

Yea I looked at the clockwork amulet and forgot to add it.

A Ruby of the Warmage would be a more versatile focus, though you'd lose the potential cantrip cast per day.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Closed for review.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: re-opened. Everyone please remember to disagree courteously and respectfully.

[Garresh]

Yay!

So I've been talking with people and they're saying that the base class is good enough that subclasses don't need to be that strong, similar to Fighter for instance. I still think some tweaks are in order but I'll be playtesting an alchemist soon enough in a game I'm in. Until then, maybe just allow potions to be drank as a bonus action? Still, people who have actually played it say its good. Not as good as the other 2, but more than viable.

Edit: Also, let's remember something. Everyone getting heated here is getting heated because they LOVE the class. We all wanna be Artificers! So let's remember we're on the same side!

[Garfunion]

Until then, maybe just allow potions to be drank as a bonus action? Still, people who have actually played it say its good. Not as good as the other 2, but more than viable.
It’s all about the action economy. People have argued it’s simply frees up the Artificer to use their bonus action on spells like flaming sphere. But it’s not just about the Artificer’s actions it’s also about their allies, who will also be using the elixirs. An ally needs to justify the use of an elixir opposed to another action that they can perform. If the ally needs healing the Artificer can just use their bonus action to cast healing word instead of wasting the spell slot to creating a healing elixir.

So making elixirs a bonus action is the solution.

[micahaphone]

I haven't played an artificer so I can't talk about balance, but personally I'm happy that I can make an alchemist character who isn't forced to have a pet homunculus. I personally am not interested in that theme.

I will note that my group house rules that drinking a healing potion (but not other potions - heals are small shots in a test tube) is a bonus action, and I'd be willing to try extending that to alchemist's elixers. They are the potion master hero, I can see the fantasy of them making efficient potions as a part of it.

[Anderlith]

So let’s just go ahead & make

Practiced Hands
You can administer Elixirs, Potions & Poisons as a Bonus Action & tack that on at level 3. Still needs a non randomized Elixir.

Now you can have an Alchemist poisoning his weapon or healing party members while still getting to attack

[Garresh]

So let’s just go ahead & make

Practiced Hands
You can administer Elixirs, Potions & Poisons as a Bonus Action & tack that on at level 3. Still needs a non randomized Elixir.

Now you can have an Alchemist poisoning his weapon or healing party members while still getting to attack

Nah that's awesome. No need to unrandom with that. It's literally fast hands exclusively for potions. That's honestly perfect.

Edit: honestly making it just elixirs is fine. I'd happily take that.

[Garfunion]

So let’s just go ahead & make

Practiced Hands
You can administer Elixirs, Potions & Poisons as a Bonus Action & tack that on at level 3. Still needs a non randomized Elixir.

Now you can have an Alchemist poisoning his weapon or healing party members while still getting to attack
But it’s just not about the Artificer’s actions, your allies will also be using your elixirs as well and they need to justify spending an action to do so.

But I do like your idea, pick up the Tavern Brawler feat to gain proficiency in throwing alchemists fire and acid. Now you’re a mad bomber.

[Habber_Dasher]

I don't know, I might be in the minority but I think being able to use elixirs as a bonus action makes Boldness a little too strong. I know it only works on one player but still, bless without concentration, with only a bonus action, and it might not even use a spell slot?

I think I'd rather make it so the alchemist can use a bonus action to make an elixir and an action to apply it to a conscious ally. That way some elixirs will be a little easier to implement, it allows the alchemist to use it's elixirs in a more active way, but there is still an action economy cost that I feel is more inline with the elixir's effect.

[stoutstien]

What about allowing the alchemist to administer an EE as a reaction?
Allows some smoother early combat buffing.
Maybe as a shot or topical application.
A true booster shot

[Anderlith]

Oh I should probably include a basic poison Elixir as an option too so you could always come up with some.

Poison Elixir
Does 1d6 Poison Damage when applied to weapons or ammo

[Garfunion]

I don't know, I might be in the minority but I think being able to use elixirs as a bonus action makes Boldness a little too strong. I know it only works on one player but still, bless without concentration, with only a bonus action, and it might not even use a spell slot?
Well if I’m reading this right, you roll the d4 once and then apply the result to all your attacks and saves for one minute. So you could roll a one(boo) or four(yay). The chance of it rolling low makes it less powerful.

[micahaphone]

What about allowing the alchemist to administer an EE as a reaction?
Allows some smoother early combat buffing.
Maybe as a shot or topical application.
A true booster shot

Hand crossbow with syringes loaded. "Hey Jeff, hold still for a sec. You'll probably like this one"

[ProsecutorGodot]

Well if I’m reading this right, you roll the d4 once and then apply the result to all your attacks and saves for one minute. So you could roll a one(boo) or four(yay). The chance of it rolling low makes it less powerful.

That's a good catch, I think you might be right. I'd argue that the chance of high rolling from the beginning makes it at the very least equal in power. Bless is strong despite the variance that it has.

[Teaguethebean]

Remember guys without changing it you can only administer potions to yourself or incapacitated allies. So no shoving a Healing potion down the throat of fighter Bob until he has gone down. So I see the Fast hands as a relatively balanced offensive feature though their support power remains relatively the same.

[AgenderArcee]

I'd like the propose that Artillerist and Alchemist each get 1-2 extra cantrips as a class feature. Maybe one extra at level 3, another at level 9.

Also, you can choose a specific Experimental Elixir without expending a spell slot after you've made it 6 - Int mod number of times.

[stoutstien]

Hand crossbow with syringes loaded. "Hey Jeff, hold still for a sec. You'll probably like this one"

Was thinking blowgun maybe

[Anderlith]

snip
Not a bad idea, though it seems like two cantrips or a fighting style is the way WotC wants to style half Casters
I’d rather Artificer gets Mending as a given honestly. Though I feel Artillerist does still need just a tiny extra something. A ribbon of some sort maybe

[Evaar]

Hand crossbow with syringes loaded. "Hey Jeff, hold still for a sec. You'll probably like this one"

"Nano boost administered!"

[Kane0]

Hand crossbow with syringes loaded. "Hey Jeff, hold still for a sec. You'll probably like this one"

You just inspired my first artificer
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Medieval_Medic

[Garresh]

Not a bad idea, though it seems like two cantrips or a fighting style is the way WotC wants to style half Casters
I’d rather Artificer gets Mending as a given honestly. Though I feel Artillerist does still need just a tiny extra something. A ribbon of some sort maybe

Really? It gets a great spell list, excellent damage, and good healing. Artillerist seems excellent to me as either a support or blaster.

[Anderlith]

Really? It gets a great spell list, excellent damage, and good healing. Artillerist seems excellent to me as either a support or blaster.

Oh I think it’s mechanically sound. I just want something to give it a bit of flavor or pizazz. It’s very much a flavorless subclass. It does what’s on the tin without much of an identity. I only want a ribbon of some kind. Nothing that adds power

[Garresh]

Oh I think it’s mechanically sound. I just want something to give it a bit of flavor or pizazz. It’s very much a flavorless subclass. It does what’s on the tin without much of an identity. I only want a ribbon of some kind. Nothing that adds power

Eh. I just want something that works. As long as I'm not dragging the party down, I'll have fun flavoring stuff. Still debating if I wanna Alch to test it, or go Artillerist for aoe heals. But if I do Artillerist I'm making my protector a cat that purrs to heal, releasing healing energy as sound waves to those nearby.