Experimental elixir. Are they magical effects?

[stoutstien]

Just noticed that the only time that magical is used on this feature is the production of the elixirs themselves unlike say a healing potion That is called out in the PHB as magical. The only exception is alter self transformation.

Which brings to another question: can they stack? If so this subclass is going to become a monster.

[Anderlith]

Just noticed that the only time that magical is used on this feature is the production of the elixirs themselves unlike say a healing potion That is called out in the PHB as magical. The only exception is alter self transformation.

Which brings to another question: can they stack? If so this subclass is going to become a monster.

I think it was clearly cut & dry to be a spell like effect.

[JackPhoenix]

Anything fueled by spell slots is magical. And the effect doesn't need to be magical to disallow stacking.

[Dork_Forge]

A creature can only be affected by something once, if two effects with the same proper name happen only the most recent takes effect I think.

[stoutstien]

Anything fueled by spell slots is magical. And the effect doesn't need to be magical to disallow stacking.

The first 1-3 elixirs are not fueled by spell slots.
I'm Also aware of the DMG ettra about effects but still has the issue of can different elixirs stack because they all are experimental elixirs and Only the effects have separate names.

The ruling of 'is it magical' has other considerations like can they be dispelled or how the react to antimagic fields.

[Dork_Forge]

The first 1-3 elixirs are not fueled by spell slots.
I'm Also aware of the DMG ettra about effects but still has the issue of can different elixirs stack because they all are experimental elixirs and Only the effects have separate names.

The ruling of 'is it magical' has other considerations like can they be dispelled or how the react to antimagic fields.

RAW I'd say no because it's the same feature name, it wouldn't really break the game to allow them to though.

Otherwise I'd treat them the same as potions, they're produced magically and the same class specifically calls out that tools created by magic aren't magic.

[stoutstien]

RAW I'd say no because it's the same feature name, it wouldn't really break the game to allow them to though.

Otherwise I'd treat them the same as potions, they're produced magically and the same class specifically calls out that tools created by magic aren't magic.
It's a puzzling one. So a player under the effects of boldness couldn't drink a healing elixir.

Would have been cleaner to just have them make the actual potions from the DMG.
Potion of giants strength and healing that lvs with you.
Fire breath
Growth
Heroism
Resistance.




*lv 9 feature could have just made a number of elixirs of health equal to int modifier vs just casting lesser restoration.

[Anderlith]

Look at it this way, does a Warlock Invocation that allows alter self stack with a potion of alter self or a wizard casting it?

[stoutstien]

Look at it this way, does a Warlock Invocation that allows alter self stack with a potion of alter self or a wizard casting it?
The warlock's invocation has a single effect that is the same effect as the potion and spell.( I thought it was disguise self, no matter).
The question is can a player drink multiple elixirs that have different effects that are NOT called out as specific spells or effects. Which there is only one. The one that flat out says 'this is alter self'.

Example:
Can a player have the boldness, resilience, and swiftness effect active at one time?

[JackPhoenix]

The warlock's invocation has a single effect that is the same effect as the potion and spell.( I thought it was disguise self, no matter).
The question is can a player drink multiple elixirs that have different effects that are NOT called out as specific spells or effects. Which there is only one. The one that flat out says 'this is alter self'.

Example:
Can a player have the boldness, resilience, and swiftness effect active at one time?

No, they all come from a feature with the same name. Just like a player can't use natural weapons, water breathing and disguise option of Alter Self all at once.

[stoutstien]

No, they all come from a feature with the same name. Just like a player can't use natural weapons, water breathing and disguise option of Alter Self all at once.

I don't know if alter self is a good baseline. The spell has clear texts that say pick one of the following options where EE effect rules are: as an action you can drink/administer one and then the effects take effect. Nothing In the text suggests that you can even switch the effects off early or that they end on consuming another.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't know if alter self is a good baseline. The spell has clear texts that say pick one of the following options where EE effect rules are: as an action you can drink/administer one and then the effects take effect. Nothing In the text suggests that you can even switch the effects off early or that they end on consuming another.

It doesn't matter if EE has multiple options to choose from. They all came from the same feature, just like with Alter Self.

"Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap."

Regardless of what option you choose or roll, the effects all came from Experimental Elixir, which doesn't explicitly say you can benefit from more than one option at the same time (I won't have (or rather, open) the book for another month, though, so I'm just going from what I've seen here so far).

[stoutstien]

It doesn't matter if EE has multiple options to choose from. They all came from the same feature, just like with Alter Self.

"Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap."

Regardless of what option you choose or roll, the effects all came from Experimental Elixir, which doesn't explicitly say you can benefit from more than one option at the same time (I won't have (or rather, open) the book for another month, though, so I'm just going from what I've seen here so far).

The question is is experimental elixir(healing) the same name as experimental elixir (boldness) as far as same effect stacking.
The individual options are listed as effects on the table so they are clearly different effects but if they are all the same class feature is questionable.

[MrCharlie]

No, they all come from a feature with the same name. Just like a player can't use natural weapons, water breathing and disguise option of Alter Self all at once.
Spells come from spellcasting. Therefore a creature can never have more than one spell on it, unless it comes from a feature not called spellcasting.

The logic works similarly.

There is a sub-division in the name, which means general stacking rules don't apply. If it was specifically a spell then it would not work, because it explicitly says multiple instances of the same spell do not stack, and an Enhance Ability spell giving Bulls Strength is still an Enhance Ability spell. But there is no rule governing this for elixirs, so each elixir should be considered it's own separate entity. Therefore, they stack.

To put it another way; my belief is that you could stack enhance ability to get advantage on all six ability scores, except it's a spell and therefore the text that says that spells do not stack with themselves applies. Because Elixirs are not spells, they don't have this text, and therefore they stack with other elixirs but not the exact same elixir.

[JackPhoenix]

Spells come from spellcasting. Therefore a creature can never have more than one spell on it, unless it comes from a feature not called spellcasting.

The logic works similarly.

Spellcasting allows you to cast spells. Spells are different abilities with different effects.


There is a sub-division in the name, which means general stacking rules don't apply. If it was specifically a spell then it would not work, because it explicitly says multiple instances of the same spell do not stack, and an Enhance Ability spell giving Bulls Strength is still an Enhance Ability spell. But there is no rule governing this for elixirs, so each elixir should be considered it's own separate entity. Therefore, they stack.

I've managed to find an image of the ability on the 'net. There's no subdivision, it's still Experimental Elixir, and the table lists possible effects for the EE. It's a single feature with multiple possible effects, not multiple different features covered under single heading.


To put it another way; my belief is that you could stack enhance ability to get advantage on all six ability scores, except it's a spell and therefore the text that says that spells do not stack with themselves applies. Because Elixirs are not spells, they don't have this text, and therefore they stack with other elixirs but not the exact same elixir.

Your belief is simply wrong. The no stacking rule isn't limited to spells. "Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects".

Of course the Experimental Elixir can be used with other elixirs. It can't be used with another Experimental Elixir, though, because it's the same feature.

[stoutstien]

I have sent an inquiry on this to Crawford. Might be a little bit before a response with all the dog n pony with new book.

I'll update when I hear back from him.

[Damon_Tor]

I've managed to find an image of the ability on the 'net. There's no subdivision, it's still Experimental Elixir, and the table lists possible effects for the EE. It's a single feature with multiple possible effects, not multiple different features covered under single heading.

A Battle Smith has the Shield and Searing Smite spells under the heading feature "Battlesmith Spells". Are we to believe he cannot benefit from both at once?

[JackPhoenix]

A Battle Smith has the Shield and Searing Smite spells under the heading feature "Battlesmith Spells". Are we to believe he cannot benefit from both at once?

Those are simply spells added to the spell list. The spells themselves are different features. Experimental Elixir, on the other hand, clearly lists possible different effects for the same feature.

[MrCharlie]

Spellcasting allows you to cast spells. Spells are different abilities with different effects.



I've managed to find an image of the ability on the 'net. There's no subdivision, it's still Experimental Elixir, and the table lists possible effects for the EE. It's a single feature with multiple possible effects, not multiple different features covered under single heading.



Your belief is simply wrong. The no stacking rule isn't limited to spells. "Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects".

Of course the Experimental Elixir can be used with other elixirs. It can't be used with another Experimental Elixir, though, because it's the same feature.
Yes, but there is a subdivision. It says elixir, then under the table the elixir is then named. For instance, it says 1. Healing: text of elixir. That's it's name.

The reason why enhance ability is different is that, while it says "Bull's strength" etc., it then says under spells that no spell stacks with itself, so that rule overwrites that there are different names for enhance ability. It never says a potion which then causes one of three different named effects can't stack if you drink that type of potion three times.

To put it another way; the Staff of Thunder and Lightning has four different named effects; one of them explicitly invokes two of these at the same time. Under your interpretation, because they are both Staff of Thunder and Lightning effects, they do not stack and therefore only the most "potent" applies.

This interpretation is wrong because the intent of the item is clearly to work with itself, Q.E.D. the similar interpretation of elixirs is wrong. If a single magic item or feature has multiple named effects, each effect is separate and therefore they stack. As magic elixir has multiple named effects, they stack.

Spellcasting is the exact same thing; if you can arbitrarily ignore the names of individual elixirs, I can arbitrarily ignore that spells are individually named. They are all spells, and thus all are magical effects that have the same name-spells-and therefore none of them stack.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Your belief is simply wrong. The no stacking rule isn't limited to spells. "Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects".

Of course the Experimental Elixir can be used with other elixirs. It can't be used with another Experimental Elixir, though, because it's the same feature.

If we assume that EE does work this way, how do we decide which effect is most potent?

For spells it's easy, Aid 1 and Aid 2 are easily differentiated in their effects. How exactly do we decide which effect is more potent between 10ft fly speed and 10ft movement speed? Between +1 AC and Alter Self? Between Mini Bless and any of the other lingering effects?

There is no metric for discerning which is most potent because they're very different. If it does turn out that the effects aren't intended to be stacked due to this rule then there's going to be a new problem, how do we decide their relative potency?

[Mjolnirbear]

If we assume that EE does work this way, how do we decide which effect is most potent?

For spells it's easy, Aid 1 and Aid 2 are easily differentiated in their effects. How exactly do we decide which effect is more potent between 10ft fly speed and 10ft movement speed? Between +1 AC and Alter Self? Between Mini Bless and any of the other lingering effects?

There is no metric for discerning which is most potent because they're very different. If it does turn out that the effects aren't intended to be stacked due to this rule then there's going to be a new problem, how do we decide their relative potency?

Surely potency is determined by circumstances? When you say "What's worth more, extra speed or more AC" there's no way to compare... Until you are running from the vampire, or fighting in combat.

Furthermore if they didn't stack, why would you take more than one and waste it? Only if you, say, suddenly need healing à lot more than you do AC would anyone reasonably do this.

[stoutstien]

To add more depth to this,
If they are magical:
-No fast hands thief interactions as not 'use an item' action.
- homunculus can administer one

[Cap'n Kobold]

My reading would be that an Experimental Elixir of Boldness and and an Experimental Elixir of Swiftness would both apply: they are different effects with different proper names.

Also an Elixir of Boldness would stack with the Bless spell. :smallsmile:

I don't think that a Homunculus could apply a potion or Elixir to someone however: Use an Object is not an option in the actions that they have available. (RaW anyway. I'd probably allow it personally.)

[stoutstien]

My reading would be that an Experimental Elixir of Boldness and and an Experimental Elixir of Swiftness would both apply: they are different effects with different proper names.

Also an Elixir of Boldness would stack with the Bless spell. :smallsmile:

I don't think that a Homunculus could apply a potion or Elixir to someone however: Use an Object is not an option in the actions that they have available. (RaW anyway. I'd probably allow it personally.)

For homunculus using the EE we have to figure if the text in EE or the text in homunculus is the more specific rule compared to the more general rule.

I did ask that in the same email about the other general questions I had.

[Damon_Tor]

I don't think that a Homunculus could apply a potion or Elixir to someone however: Use an Object is not an option in the actions that they have available. (RaW anyway. I'd probably allow it personally.)

By my reading, the homunculus and steel defender are only limited in their actions during combat. Outside of combat they simply "follow your orders" which implies you could get them to do whatever. Of course this is of somewhat limited benefit, since what we're talking about here is a way to improve our action economy.

You could always get Magic Initiate: Wizard for Find Familiar, though it's difficult to imagine an owl or even a raven effectively feeding someone a potion. An octopus could certainly do it, but they're so slow on land you would have to have the octopus and the elixirs already there with the guy you want to feed it to.

Or if you were dipping warlock for short-rest elixirs anyway you could take it to level 3 and have an invisible imp potion caddy. That would work quite well.

[Garresh]

Making it so different elixirs can't stack would be an unnecessary nerf(even if it were RAW, which I'm not convinced) to what is already the worst Artificer subclass. No idea on the potions magicalness though...
I think it would be like regular potions where they're not dispel/suppressable until you drink them and the effect becomes active?

What are the specific potion rules for antimagic field and detect magic?