(3.5) Cheaper magic weapons

[Biggus]

I'm considering halving the cost of magic weapon enhancement bonuses and special abilities, so that they cost the same as armour and shield enhancements. My reasoning is that the extremely high cost of weapons is one of the many things which put mundane classes at a disadvantage compared to casters, especially since casters who want to use weapons have access to Greater Magic Weapon and various spells which mimic special abilities such as Keen Edge.

Can anyone see a good reason not to do this? Have you done anything similar in your game? If so how did it work out?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Depends why you're doing it.

If you're trying to adjust for balance' sake, don't bother. No solution that can apply equally to both casters and non-casters will address the balance discrepancy at all.

If you're just trying to raise the power curve for warriors, other consequences be damned. Sure, that's a thing you can do that won't really break anything. I don't think it's really necessary but the impact on the warrior meta isn't huge since the weapon's enhancements are only a middling portion of the whole equation.

Stuff like greater magic weapon, magic vestment, and keen edge are all available through -other- items and there are a number of ways to cut the cost through character building too.

[Gnaeus]

My group has toyed with halving the cost of one handed, light and thrown weapons. It doesn’t change martial v. Caster significantly. But it does help weapon styles like TWF and S&B a little bit versus 2h.

[Biggus]

If you're trying to adjust for balance' sake, don't bother. No solution that can apply equally to both casters and non-casters will address the balance discrepancy at all.

I don't understand what you mean here. In my experience casters who use weapons and can cast GMW just buy a +1 weapon and then enhance it with the spell, thus either making room for an extra +4 worth of special abilities or saving themselves up to 128,000GP. Noncasters who don't have someone to cast GMW for them every day have to pay for the actual enhancement bonus if they want it.



Stuff like greater magic weapon, magic vestment, and keen edge are all available through -other- items and there are a number of ways to cut the cost through character building too.

I know about the Scabbard of Keen Edges. What other items or ways to cut costs are you talking about here?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Consider adding a class feature for non-casting and partial-casting PC classes, so any weapon they hold gains +X in special abilities? Perhaps +1 per 2 non-/partial-casting class levels? They can take an hour each morning (while the casters are studying or meditating or whatever) to change their setup? If they use multiple weapons, they can split their pluses between each weapon as they see fit.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't understand what you mean here. In my experience casters who use weapons and can cast GMW just buy a +1 weapon and then enhance it with the spell, thus either making room for an extra +4 worth of special abilities or saving themselves up to 128,000GP. Noncasters who don't have someone to cast GMW for them every day have to pay for the actual enhancement bonus if they want it.

In my experience, warriors don't bother with more than the basic +1 either. They'll find a way to get GMW cast on their weapon from day to day or just do without those last couple points of attack bonus since special abilities are just a better buy.



I know about the Scabbard of Keen Edges. What other items or ways to cut costs are you talking about here?

The existence of the tooth of leraje in Tome of Magic was basically a greenlight to make 1/day greater magic weapon items with the custom rules since it follows the formula exactly. That's That's my go-to in most cases.

There's also the tooth of leraje itself; GMW at CL 20 1/day for 21,600, IIRC. When you're getting ready to move up from a +4 weapon to a +5 it's absolutely a better way to spend that much money.

If you're willing to be psionic; by race, class dip, or wild talent feat; then you can use the rules found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a) to get a permanent tattoo of metaphysical weapon. Gonna want to find a source of PP beyond your own reserve with most races or wild talent. This option is the cheapest by far, btw. Works really well with inertial armor too.

Then there's the build options.

If you don't mind being lawful, a single level of OA's samurai gets you the ancestral daisho feature. It doesn't reduce the cost directly but it -does- let you sac' items to enhance your weapon 1:1 instead of selling them and paying a wizard for 1:2. You don't need to worry about prerequisites for the weapon abilities either.

If you're good, you can use the ancestral relic feat. It functions much like the ancestral daisho feature but with slightly different level based price limits. Feats are a bigger cost than levels too, generally.

On the class front;

There's the five level, dwarf prestige class; the battlesmith, that gets the "secrests of the forge" feature and can enhance his weapons himself, getting them for half-price. Ironsoul forgemaster from Magic of Incarnum has a variation on the same feature but you'll really only want to go that way if you really like that prestige class for what it is. Remember that stoneblessed is a thing if you want to get in with a not-dwarf. You still have to source spells for item prerequisites

An artificer dip and practiced spellcaster qualifies you to simply take craft arms and armor and allows you to roll UMD to come up with item prerequisites. Combine with the previous and you've only got to keep up your UMD to have whatever weapons you want, for the most part.

A kensai (complete warrior) gets the phenomenal "signature weapon" class feature. You pay the xp cost listed and you get -any- ability or series of abilities whose effective enhancemnt is equal to your kensai level. The class' other features aren't bad either. You can pull some interesting tricks by taking a dip into monk or shou disciple (unapproachable east) and designating your unarmed strike(s) as your signature weapon.



Anyone who can reliably hit a DC 20 UMD check would do himself -very- solid to get a staff containing the level appropriate versions of the armor enhancement and weapon augmentation infusions as well as GMW and magic vestment. Real power move, that.

[Clementx]

Getting a magic crossbow doesn't really impact a lvl20 wizard's effectiveness. Getting a effective +9 longsword for a sensible price will help a fighter afford flying, miss chance, vision, and teleportation items. There is definite value in reducing the cost scaling. I've tried reducing the +x formula to bonus2x1500gp with some success.

Currently I'm trying a new one in a E10 campaign. Normal costs for enhancement bonus to hit and damage. Effects that don't scale with the weapon, like flaming, are flat costs that don't inflate the next +1 bump. Multiple effects get price reductions/increases as normal for held or worn items.

[Morof Stonehands]

Dungeon #119, pg. 24 has rules for Lesser Weapon Qualities. You can enchant weapons with the same magic enhancements, but they have 50 charges.

They cost half as much as regular enhancements, and use a charge every time the magic would be activated, only one charge per round, no matter how many attacks are made.

Price is based off effective weapon bonus:
+1 1,000 gp 20 gp per charge
+2 4,000 gp 80 gp
+3 9,000 gp 180 gp
+4 16,000 gp 320 gp
+5 25,000 gp 500 gp
+6 36,000 gp 720 gp
+7 49,000 gp 980 gp
+8 64,000 gp 1,280 gp
+9 81,000 gp 1,620 gp
+10 100,000 gp 2,000 gp

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dungeon #119, pg. 24 has rules for Lesser Weapon Qualities. You can enchant weapons with the same magic enhancements, but they have 50 charges.

They cost half as much as regular enhancements, and use a charge every time the magic would be activated, only one charge per round, no matter how many attacks are made.

Price is based off effective weapon bonus:
+1 1,000 gp 20 gp per charge
+2 4,000 gp 80 gp
+3 9,000 gp 180 gp
+4 16,000 gp 320 gp
+5 25,000 gp 500 gp
+6 36,000 gp 720 gp
+7 49,000 gp 980 gp
+8 64,000 gp 1,280 gp
+9 81,000 gp 1,620 gp
+10 100,000 gp 2,000 gpQuestion is, does the weapon keep the enhancement once the charges are all used? Can they be refilled? If the first answer is yes and the other is no, it's not worth it.

[Morof Stonehands]

Question is, does the weapon keep the enhancement once the charges are all used? Can they be refilled? If the first answer is yes and the other is no, it's not worth it.

It states they become nonmagical once the charges are all used up. It doesn't say anything about refilling before they are used up though. With a price per column in the table, I don't think it would be too outlandish to pay to refuel before depleting.

[Maat Mons]

You could just allow Items of Legend, from War of the Lance. For weapons, that's +1,500 gp for a non-magical +5 enhancement bonus to attack rolls (masterwork included). As a bonus, for armor and shields, it +750 gp for a non-magical -5 to armor check penalty (again, masterwork included).

Or you could decide that making characters pay a tax to keep their numbers level-appropriate is lame, and hand out VoP-style bonuses to everybody, without that dumb poverty crap attached.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It states they become nonmagical once the charges are all used up. It doesn't say anything about refilling before they are used up though. With a price per column in the table, I don't think it would be too outlandish to pay to refuel before depleting.Waitaminnit.

Luckblade.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Dungeon #119, pg. 24 has rules for Lesser Weapon Qualities. You can enchant weapons with the same magic enhancements, but they have 50 charges.

They cost half as much as regular enhancements, and use a charge every time the magic would be activated, only one charge per round, no matter how many attacks are made.

Price is based off effective weapon bonus:
+1 1,000 gp 20 gp per charge
+2 4,000 gp 80 gp
+3 9,000 gp 180 gp
+4 16,000 gp 320 gp
+5 25,000 gp 500 gp
+6 36,000 gp 720 gp
+7 49,000 gp 980 gp
+8 64,000 gp 1,280 gp
+9 81,000 gp 1,620 gp
+10 100,000 gp 2,000 gp

Okay but does the size of the soulgem I use effect how many charges it starts with and do you care if it's white or black? :smalltongue:

It's a reference to the Elder Scrolls games, like Skyrim.

[Jay R]

At the games I've seen, lots of players are choosing to play martials. It follows that you don't need to change the rules to make people enjoy playing them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

At the games I've seen, lots of players are choosing to play martials. It follows that you don't need to change the rules to make people enjoy playing them.

My table plays all 1P RAW with minimal houerules and I'm the goofy bastard that could have the PhD in 3e if it was a real thing, including your batman wizards and CoDzilla, obviously.

I still play warriors preferentially over any other archetype. Not gishes either; non-caster warriors. Martials don't -need- the help. Not unless the GM is throwing mid-to-high op casters at the party, more or less exclusively. The biggest problem isn't the cost of things but that all the things are -way- more scattered than spells are.

[Fizban]

Take some example equipment sets (your players', made up yourself, whatever). Then once you're looking at some real lists, look at how much extra money they'd have with this change, and figure out what you'd actually expect them to do with it.

It's not actually that much of a change unless you're a high level character buying multiple high bonus weapons. As mentioned, a lot of people don't (or assume that other people don't) buy weapons with more than the base +1, and I suspect they rarely fill that out with a full +9 of other abilities (of course there's a whole pile of char-op favorites I have banned or nerfed due to being obviously OP, so there's not as much ridiculousness to stack and my view may be skewed). An extra 5-25k is certainly something, but it's still only going to go so far if you perceive a non-caster as having a hole to climb out of.

The biggest culprit I've noticed in inflating weapon costs are the anti-DR effects, which cost +3 for a good one. Except you should never actually need that because all the typical DRs are a known quantity and can be overcome without those expensive convenience properties, and for the same price as adding +3 you could just buy a second weapon of the original bonus, made of a different material etc. It doesn't sound to me like most people bother with things like Vorpal, Speed, or Dancing (likely not much Brilliant Energy when there's even a spell to dupe that), but I've seen a weird number of people's ideal weapons include a bunch of expensive anti-DR effects.

[Prime32]

My reasoning is that the extremely high cost of weapons is one of the many things which put mundane classes at a disadvantage compared to casters, especially since casters who want to use weapons have access to Greater Magic Weapon and various spells which mimic special abilities such as Keen Edge.
One other possibility: See potions -> scrolls -> wands -> staffs. They all do pretty much the same thing, but you get discounts depending on how much casting you have. What if instead, they were discounted based on how much fighting ability you have?

I'm saying remove magic staffs that scale by CL, and replace them with magic weapons that scale by BAB. Instead of gating them behind spell access, gate them behind weapon proficiency. Extend the MIC rules for "common item effects" so that adding these powers to a weapon doesn't incur a price multiplier, but use a variant of the "body slot affinity" system so that abjuration spells fit better with shields, etc..

In other words:


Add a spell to a weapon. The wielder may cast that spell from the weapon as a standard action at will, with a caster level equal to their BAB, and a save DC equal to 10 + spell level + the wielder's Charisma modifier (some feats and class features can change the ability modifier used). Add the weapon's enhancement bonus to the level of the spell for the purpose of resolving its effects (e.g. save DCs and ability to penetrate a globe of invulnerability) but not for determining the price of adding it to the weapon. If the spell normally requires a melee touch attack (for a melee weapon), or a ray or ranged touch attack (for a ranged weapon) then it must instead be channelled through a normal attack with the weapon, similar to channelling a touch spell through an unarmed strike. If the spell grants bonuses on attacks, they apply only for attacks made with the weapon in question (including spells delivered through the weapon). If the spell has a range of Personal, it ends if the weapon is dropped.

The highest-level spell added has a cost of 750gp * spell level * minimum caster level for that spell. The next-most costly ability is added at 75% of this cost. Subsequent abilities are added at half cost.

If desired, a spell may be added to the weapon so that it takes 1 round to activate (rather than 1 standard action). In this case the cost of adding that spell is halved.

Adding an enhancement bonus to a weapon (including properties which count against an enhancement bonus) is now considered a "common item effect" (MIC p233-234) and as such does not incur the usual cost increase for applying multiple enchantments to the same item.

Weapon Group Affinities
Each weapon group (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm)UA has one or more affinities: a word or phrase that describes the general function or nature of magic weapons of that type. Weapon group affinities are deliberately broad, abstract categorizations, because a hard-and-fast rule can’t cover the great variety among magic weapons.

You can use the affinities in the list below to guide your decisions on which magic weapon enhantments should be allowed in which groups. And when you design your own magic weapons, the affinities give you some guidance for what form a particular item should take.

Some enchantments have different affinities for different specific weapons (such as scythes being associated with death).



Group
Members
Themes


Axes
handaxe, battleaxe, greataxe, dwarven waraxe(*), orc double axe**, dwarven urgrosh**
Earth, destruction, execution, severing


Basic weapons
club, dagger, quarterstaff
Underdogs, humility, travel, gaining greater benefits when in great danger


Bows
shortbow, longbow, composite shortbow, composite longbow, elven double bow*, greatbow*, composite greatbow*
Distance, perception, patience


Claw weapons
punching dagger, spiked gauntlet, bladed gauntlet*, claw bracer*, panther claw*, stump knife*, tiger claws*, ward cestus*
Beasts, ferocity, dual-wielding


Crossbows
heavy crossbow, light crossbow, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, great crossbow*, hand crossbow*
Stealth, pragmatism, efficiency


Claw weapons
punching dagger, spiked gauntlet
Beasts, ferocity


Druid weapons
club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, spear, greatspear*
Divination, nature


Exotic weapons
All weapons marked with a * in another list
Mastery, superiority, strangeness, confusion


Exotic double weapons
All weapons marked with a ** in another list
Duality, spinning


Flails and chains
light flail, heavy flail, chain-and-dagger*, scourge*, spiked chain*, three-section staff*, whip*, whipdagger*, dire flail**, gyrspike**
Slow and powerful, binding, flexibility, snakes and worms


Heavy blades
longsword, greatsword, falchion, scimitar, bastard sword (two-handed), khopesh*, mercurial longsword*, mercurial greatsword*, double scimitar**, gyrspike**, two-bladed sword**
Heroism, leadership, inspiration, good or evil


Light blades
dagger, punching dagger, rapier, short sword, kukri*, sapara*, triple dagger*, war fan*
Quickness, wit, bloodletting


Maces and clubs
club, light mace, heavy mace, greatclub, quarterstaff, sap, warmace (*), tonfa*, double mace**
Stunning, weight, knockback, order, domination


Monk weapons
kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, butterfly sword*, tonfa*
Spirituality, self-improvement, agility


Picks and hammers
light pick, heavy pick, light hammer, warhammer, scythe, maul(*), dire pick*, gnome battlepick*, double hammer**, gnome hooked hammer**
Destruction, penetration, dispelling


Polearms
glaive, guisarme, halberd, ranseur, heavy poleaxe*
Battlefields, group combat


Slings and thrown weapons
dart, sling, bolas*, chakram*, gnome calculus*, halfling skiprock*, orc shotput*, shuriken*, throwing iron*
Underdogs, explosions


Spears and lances
javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, trident, duom*, greatspear*, harpoon*, manti*, spinning javelin*, dwarven urgrosh**
Accuracy, speed, penetration, lightning



Magic weapon enchantments that don’t match the affinity for a particular weapon group should cost 50% more than those that match the affinity.