Why don't fighters have proficiency with Dex Saves?

[FilthyLucre]

Considering that from day 1 dexterity fighters were more viable than they ever have been before, why doesn't the fighter have: Constitution and Dexterity or Strength?

[stoutstien]

Because on 5e save are unofficially split in two categories of common and uncommon. Each class gets one of each. You see Wis/Cha but not Wis/con or Wis/Dex.

[nickl_2000]

Because Constitution and Dexterity would be all kinds of overpowered.

Generally saves are one of the top three common saves (Constitution, Dexterity, Wisdom)
and one of the bottom three common save (Intelligence, Strength, Charisma).

[FilthyLucre]

Because Constitution and Dexterity would be all kinds of overpowered.

Generally saves are one of the top three common saves (Constitution, Dexterity, Wisdom)
and one of the bottom three common save (Intelligence, Strength, Charisma).

People on forums throw around the word "overpowered" pretty liberally. To me, "overpowered" means it allows you to dominate or significantly unbalance the game.

[stoutstien]

People on forums throw around the word "overpowered" pretty liberally. To me, "overpowered" means it allows you to dominate or significantly unbalance the game.

I wouldn't call it over powered but it would be out of normal game design principles.

[MrCharlie]

That said, Dexterity has become less important as time goes on, mostly because most DEX effects are still HP damage and we are getting more CHA and INT effects which incapacitate you or lose you the combat. In practice, you probably could give someone CON and DEX and not break anything fundamental. The issue is that STR is still the most worthless save (basically, save against movement, save against knocked down, sometimes save against grapple or something) so you certainly aren't trading fairly.

Though having a bunch of decent saves is somewhat more beneficial with advantage and re-rolls, as long as you can make a save on a 15 or so. So having STR proficiency and a high DEX score might be useful in an of itself.

It also would be fair to give DEX saves to an archetype, given that samurai get wisdom, for instance.

[nickl_2000]

People on forums throw around the word "overpowered" pretty liberally. To me, "overpowered" means it allows you to dominate or significantly unbalance the game.

Alright, maybe I used hyperbole in my post. That being said, giving someone both Dex and Con would give one player a bonus over the other.

Why not do Dex and Str then so that you follow the standard pattern

[Man_Over_Game]

Alright, maybe I used hyperbole in my post. That being said, giving someone both Dex and Con would give one player a bonus over the other.

Why not do Dex and Str then so that you follow the standard pattern

Because that's identical to the Monk's and Ranger's setup.

Honestly, though, it's probably to make sure that Dexterity Saves stay dangerous. With Dexterity being mandatory for all classes except those in Heavy Armor (50% of Clerics, 50% of Fighters, 100% of Paladins, or roughly 17% of all builds ignore Dexterity), on top of several abilities targeting explicitly Dexterity Saves, there are already a lot of methods to mitigate Dexterity Saving throws.

On top of that, something like improving Dexterity Saves is a valid reason to pick up something like Shield Master, which already is considered low value than more damage-focused options.

[Misterwhisper]

I think it is a much bigger problem that Monks don't get wisdom saves, despite it being an integral part of many of their abilities.

A fighter can be str or dex based, but a monk will always want a good wisdom.

[MrStabby]

I think it is a much bigger problem that Monks don't get wisdom saves, despite it being an integral part of many of their abilities.

A fighter can be str or dex based, but a monk will always want a good wisdom.

I specifically try and make all saves roughly as common and as debilitating in my games so I don't have an issue with people switching.

[alchahest]

Monks do get wisdom saves though, just not until level 14.

[Man_Over_Game]

Monks do get wisdom saves though, just not until level 14.

They also get Stillness of Mind at level 7.

Between using a high Wisdom, a feature targeted against Charm and Fear effects, and all Save proficiencies at 14, they seem decent against Wisdom saves.

Additionally, most of the results of a failed Wisdom save (being forced out of position, falling prone, lower chance to hit) aren't as big of a deal for them than most characters.

I'd say they fare better against Wisdom saves than Warlocks do.

[MrCharlie]

Because that's identical to the Monk's and Ranger's setup.

Honestly, though, it's probably to make sure that Dexterity Saves stay dangerous. With Dexterity being mandatory for all classes except those in Heavy Armor (50% of Clerics, 50% of Fighters, 100% of Paladins, or roughly 17% of all builds ignore Dexterity), on top of several abilities targeting explicitly Dexterity Saves, there are already a lot of methods to mitigate Dexterity Saving throws.

On top of that, something like improving Dexterity Saves is a valid reason to pick up something like Shield Master, which already is considered low value than more damage-focused options.
Not 100% of paladins use heavy armor, only like, 95%. Also, Paladins cheat. And Shield Master is a joke that barely works.

But point stands, sortuve.

[djreynolds]

Its not as bad as you think, if you are a dex based fighter, you'll have a decent strength save (up to +5 even if you dumped strength), more than likely a +5 dex save, and then anywhere from a +7 to +11 con save

Now a ranger, who has strength and dex saves, is gonna have maybe a +5 strength save (assuming an 8 in strength here), and maybe a +11 dex save (but not no evasion unless a hunter or rogue multiclass) and now they still have to do something about con and wis

[ad_hoc]

The issue is that STR is still the most worthless save (basically, save against movement, save against knocked down, sometimes save against grapple or something) so you certainly aren't trading fairly.

Strength is the 4th most common save and much closer to the big three. Cha and Int saves are very rare.

Strength saves are not just about grappled and forced movement which is bad, but also being restrained and/or swallowed which involves continuous damage.

Strength is the 4th best save to have. Wis/Str is the best combo followed by Con/Str.

You could go an entire campaign without ever making a Cha or Int save.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Strength is the 4th most common save and much closer to the big three. Cha and Int saves are very rare.

Strength saves are not just about grappled and forced movement which is bad, but also being restrained and/or swallowed which involves continuous damage.

Strength is the 4th best save to have. Wis/Str is the best combo followed by Con/Str.

You could go an entire campaign without ever making a Cha or Int save.

The only charisma saves I'm even aware are Umber Hulk's Gaze and Banishment and it's very rare for an NPC to have that spell.

Now that I'm thinking of it, Dungeon of the Mad Mage is very punishing to those who ignored Int and Cha saves.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I think it is a much bigger problem that Monks don't get wisdom saves, despite it being an integral part of many of their abilities.

Monks are already going to have decent wisdom, get still mind at level 7.(frighten and charmed cover a lot of will saves). And Diamond Soul will give them proficency on all saves.

[TripleD]

And Shield Master is a joke that barely works.


Care to expand? Costing my opponent half their movement and granting my melee companions advantage is nice, even if RAD I can’t take advantage of the advantage myself.

Then there’s the ability to completely shrug off damage on successful a DEX saving throw (which the feat also gives you a bonus to).

It’s always felt like a solid choice to me.

[HiveStriker]

Care to expand? Costing my opponent half their movement and granting my melee companions advantage is nice, even if RAD I can’t take advantage of the advantage myself.

Then there’s the ability to completely shrug off damage on successful a DEX saving throw (which the feat also gives you a bonus to).

It’s always felt like a solid choice to me.
Agreed. But some people want *ever more*. XD

[Tanarii]

Then there’s the ability to completely shrug off damage on successful a DEX saving throw (which the feat also gives you a bonus to).To get the bonus the Dex save, the effect must target only you. And IMx most DMs interpret that to mean the effect can only target one target and is targeting you, not it does not currently target anyone else.

Regardless, most Fighters dump Dex. So +1 instead of -1 to save means the second and third bullet points of Shield master are typically considered ribbons.

(And if you're the much more rare Dex fighter a dump Str you probably aren't taking Shield Master.)

[stoutstien]

To get the bonus the Dex save, the effect must target only you. And IMx most DMs interpret that to mean the effect can only target one target and is targeting you, not it does not currently target anyone else.

Regardless, most Fighters dump Dex. So +1 instead of -1 to save means the second and third bullet points of Shield master are typically considered ribbons.

(And if you're the much more rare Dex fighter a dump Str you probably aren't taking Shield Master.)

Or go dex focus and forget about the first bullet or grab expertise in athletic and do just fine with a 10 or 12

[Tanarii]

Or go dex focus and forget about the first bullet or grab expertise in athletic and do just fine with a 10 or 12
Not particularly feasible unless you're starting at level 9 or dipping Rogue.

But the main point is it's clearly a feat designed to boost Shield wearing warriors / clerics, who are almost always Str builds. And the Dex bullet points are a little lacking. Which is fine, the shove bullet point is awesome.

[stoutstien]

Not particularly feasible unless you're starting at level 9 or dipping Rogue.

But the main point is it's clearly a feat designed to boost Shield wearing warriors / clerics, who are almost always Str builds. And the Dex bullet points are a little lacking. Which is fine, the shove bullet point is awesome.

I guess I just like the other bullets more lol.

Artificer would be tough as anything at 20 with it.

[Tanarii]

I guess I just like the other bullets more lol.

Artificer would be tough as anything at 20 with it.Hey, more power to you if you want to take it for a character with a decent Dex Save. :smallamused: Clearly the other two bullet points have far more value then, especially the last.

[stoutstien]

Hey, more power to you if you want to take it for a character with a decent Dex Save. :smallamused: Clearly the other two bullet points have far more value then, especially the last.

I think it a great feat because it helps anyone that wields a shield regardless of build.
I wish more where built along the same lines.

[Tanarii]

I think it a great feat because it helps anyone that wields a shield regardless of build.
I wish more where built along the same lines.
Agreed. I should have prefaced my first post with"it's possible some people might see the second and third bullet point as 'useless' because ..."

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On topic, Dex & Con definitely don't work, because that breaks the saving throw paradigm of 5e. Personally on a Str Fighter dumping Dex I'd probably take Str/Dex over Str/Con if I was given a choice, because I'd rather shore up a weak save than boost a strong one.

(Yeah yeah, that goes against my point on the Sheild Master feat. Consistency and hobgoblins or whatever.)

[TripleD]

Regardless, most Fighters dump Dex. So +1 instead of -1 to save means the second and third bullet points of Shield master are typically considered ribbons.

(And if you're the much more rare Dex fighter a dump Str you probably aren't taking Shield Master.)

You and I hang out with very different Fighters. INT and CHA are dumped way before DEX. Even the Full-Plate Heavy Armor Masters I hang with typically have +2, which helps when they are using the second point of Shield Master (which to me always felt just as significant as the Shove action given how often DEX saves come up).

[Tanarii]

You and I hang out with very different Fighters. INT and CHA are dumped way before DEX. Even the Full-Plate Heavy Armor Masters I hang with typically have +2, which helps when they are using the second point of Shield Master (which to me always felt just as significant as the Shove action given how often DEX saves come up).
The majority of Heavy Armor Fighters my players make have either Dex 8 or Dex 10. They can't Stealth effectively and it doesn't contribute to AC, so they've lost half the benefit.

It probably makes a difference that EK is by far their most popular subclass, and for those that aren't Cha backgrounds / Skills are non uncommon.

From what I recall of AL, fair to say other players dumping Int and Cha was more common for Fighters.

[HiveStriker]

The majority of Heavy Armor Fighters my players make have either Dex 8 or Dex 10. They can't Stealth effectively and it doesn't contribute to AC, so they've lost half the benefit.

It probably makes a difference that EK is by far their most popular subclass, and for those that aren't Cha backgrounds / Skills are non uncommon.

From what I recall of AL, fair to say other players dumping Int and Cha was more common for Fighters.
Like TripleD, I have a very different experience. :)
People I game with usually don't like being burdens for Stealth though, even when they play classes that have no special incentive to be. That probably explains that. ^^

Plus they count on always having one guy with Dispel Magic or Counterspell to avoid the most dangerous effects like "turn on your friends", AND they dislike very much being late to act (bad Initiative). So they would usually pump DEX over INT or CHA, unless they are the skill referents for its.

Big thing to note though of course: my point here is not about "what is the most common choice". I play with a small group of people, so of course as far as statistics (factual or "memorial") go, I can't compete. ^^
My point was rather about the viability of still getting decent DEX even if you use STR for weapons as a martial.:)

[Tanarii]

Like TripleD, I have a very different experience. :)
People I game with usually don't like being burdens for Stealth though, even when they play classes that have no special incentive to be. That probably explains that. ^^
A Heavy Armor wearer is a burden on stealth whether they start with an 8 or a 13 in Dex.

+1 vs -1 Init is a nice little bonus though.

I wasn't surprised to see AL players dump Int and Cha in favor of putting a +1 bonus to Init and Dex saves because as a general rule official play DMs (and modules) make those checks/skills so useless outside of a single party Face / Loremaster. And that was the case long before 5e was released.

[ad_hoc]

A Heavy Armor wearer is a burden on stealth whether they start with an 8 or a 13 in Dex.

+1 vs -1 Init is a nice little bonus though.

This is a bit tangential but I think Dex's reputation as an overpowered ability largely depends on how other abilities are treated.

In the games I play everyone gets to make the knowledge checks and in social situations everyone gets to talk so both Int and Cha have value for every character.

That probably changes the value of Dex comparatively.

I also just don't see bonuses (or penalties) to initiative as a big deal for most characters. Ironically most Rogues probably want to go last while Sorcerers want to go first.

[MeeposFire]

This is a bit tangential but I think Dex's reputation as an overpowered ability largely depends on how other abilities are treated.

In the games I play everyone gets to make the knowledge checks and in social situations everyone gets to talk so both Int and Cha have value for every character.

That probably changes the value of Dex comparatively.

I also just don't see bonuses (or penalties) to initiative as a big deal for most characters. Ironically most Rogues probably want to go last while Sorcerers want to go first.

I agree people here tend to way overvalue dex especially when they are talking about only investing some points into dex and nothing else when it is a D20 roll. It gets even crazier when they are talking in general when really it is not too big a deal for many classes. Now if you are an assassin or one that does a lot of controlling effects like a wizard then yes it can be a bigger deal (especially the assassin since it NEEDS to go first to get its benefit) but people are not generally talking about that.

[Tanarii]

In the games I play everyone gets to make the knowledge checks and in social situations everyone gets to talk so both Int and Cha have value for every character.
.I feel the same for my games.

But to be fair, I'm fairly sure if I asked any one of my players they'd still say they roll Initiative plus the occasional Dex save more often than they make an Int check or Cha check. And that's with me seriously keeping an eye out to boosting the frequency of Int checks in the game. (The struggle is not just adding them in pointlessly for the sake of.)

Cha checks are a no-brainier to increase the frequency of and eliminate the 'Face' problem with a simple ruling: If you say it, you say it or do it. That way, if another player opens their mouth to chime in or crack wise from the peanut gallery, it just became a group Cha check. Assuming they didn't just sabotage the interaction completely. Even knowing this ruling in advance and having tanked social encounters previously, many players can't keep their low-Cha-character mouth shut when talking to NPCs. Which I find endlessly entertaining, and many players of Face characters insanely frustrating.

[HiveStriker]

A Heavy Armor wearer is a burden on stealth whether they start with an 8 or a 13 in Dex.

+1 vs -1 Init is a nice little bonus though.

I wasn't surprised to see AL players dump Int and Cha in favor of putting a +1 bonus to Init and Dex saves because as a general rule official play DMs (and modules) make those checks/skills so useless outside of a single party Face / Loremaster. And that was the case long before 5e was released.
Except that NOT EVERYBODY being a martial, that goes STR, decides to wear heavy armor.

Seriously, guys. Stop the blatant shortcuts. :)

Between those that simply don't get heavy armor proficiency and don't care about because they have other ways (*cough* non-Fighters *cough*), Fighters that precisely prefer getting Medium Armor Master because it allows decent AC with decent Stealth, and Fighters that use dual-weapon fighting to avoid getting too much into melee and are fine with mid-range medium armor...

There are lot of people for which mobility, stealth and initiative are as important as one or two points of AC. It all depends on what kind of Fighter you play in archetype and role, and party you're with. And possibilites expand even more when feats (or multiclasses) are allowed. ^^

Also, in case I wasn't clear, my experience is completely outside AL and we (group of friends) make a point about targeting all saves as reasonably equally as possible considering party setup when we DM. So it's not a matter of metagaming per se, just a matter of choosing which effects you want to manage on your own and which effects you trust your fellows to take care for you.

[Tanarii]

Except that NOT EVERYBODY being a martial, that goes STR, decides to wear heavy armor.
A large majority of Fighters is close enough.

And to be clear, we're talking about Fighters here. Not 'martials'.

[ad_hoc]

I feel the same for my games.

But to be fair, I'm fairly sure if I asked any one of my players they'd still say they roll Initiative plus the occasional Dex save more often than they make an Int check or Cha check. And that's with me seriously keeping an eye out to boosting the frequency of Int checks in the game. (The struggle is not just adding them in pointlessly for the sake of.)


I suppose that comes down to the value of the rolls rather than just the frequency.

Initiative happens regularly but it doesn't matter as much as people think it does. And getting a 14 rather than a 15 often won't make a difference but it does when the DC was 15 for that Int check.

But yeah, Dex is still good. Saves are the ones here which will make a huge difference.



Cha checks are a no-brainier to increase the frequency of and eliminate the 'Face' problem with a simple ruling: If you say it, you say it or do it. That way, if another player opens their mouth to chime in or crack wise from the peanut gallery, it just became a group Cha check. Assuming they didn't just sabotage the interaction completely. Even knowing this ruling in advance and having tanked social encounters previously, many players can't keep their low-Cha-character mouth shut when talking to NPCs. Which I find endlessly entertaining, and many players of Face characters insanely frustrating.

One thing to do would be to have NPCs talk to the other characters. Instead of 1 character controlling the conversation, have the NPCs also direct things. I could see situations where if only 1 person talks NPCs could become suspicious of the other members of the party and impose disadvantage on the Cha check (if one even occurs).

Most of the time I don't even do that. My DM style is to set up a scene and then ask everyone what they're doing in turn. If a player decides they're going to talk a lot then we do that until I feel their turn is up and then I move on to the next player. They often want to do something which is usually talking instead of just saying 'pass'.