Uses for Practiced Spellcaster and Practiced Manifester

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Practiced Spellcaster and Practiced Manifester feats are fairly easily understood, as they each grant a CL or ML bonus of +4, (limited to your HD), though neither grants bonus slots or power points. Typically, this means that only multiclass characters, characters with racial HD, or characters with partial casting PrCs would take the feat, so they aren't left too far behind on their CL or ML.

There are other uses for it, however.

1.) Partial casting base classes, such as paladins and rangers, can shore up their casting so their crippling penalties on spellcasting are slightly less crippling.

2.) PrCs that have an innate CL or ML (such as the ur priest or war mind) typically don't stack with base class CLs, meaning you need some bonuses to help retain parity.

3.) The Uncanny Forethought feat inflicts a -2 penalty to your CL. Practiced Spellcaster negates this penalty, so long as you don't have more than a -2 penalty to your CL already as compared to your HD.

4.) The wild mage PrC inflicts a -3 penalty to your CL and grants a +1d6 bonus on top of that whenever you cast a spell. Taking Practiced Spellcaster negates the penalty, granting a +1d6 bonus, which is quite nice.

5.) The Mage Slayer feats grant penalties to CL when you take them, which Practiced Spellcaster negates.

6.) Prestige classes that stack with other classes but grant their own CLs (such as sublime chord) allow you to double-dip. For instance, Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) + Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord). Not that you'd normally want to lose that many CLs...

7.) Manifesters in general get a lot more mileage out of MLs than casters do out of CLs, since augmentation is based on your ML. And since many powers have higher levels built in (such as psionic dominate upgrading from dominate person to dominate monster, or astral construct upgrading from summon AC I all the way through summon AC IX), manifesters in general really like this feat, especially since so few manifesting PrCs grant full progression.

8.) Ardents are a special case, since their manifesting is based on their ML, not their class level. That means you can take up to 4 levels in non-manifesting base classes (typically initiator levels, because of how they stack) or a partial manifesting PrC (because why not?) without losing out on your highest level powers.

Does anyone else know of any other feats or class features that grant penalties that these feats are prime candidates for making more useful?

[Khedrac]

Ultimate Magus - this class has three levels where it only boosts the casting of your arcane class with the lower caster level, Practised Spellcaster will make 2 of these levels actually be your main casting class (all 3 if you take 2 levels of the second class).

[Kalkra]

I don't think the Wild Mage thing works, since the -3 is at the time of casting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't think the Wild Mage thing works, since the -3 is at the time of casting.Actually, the penalty isn't specified "upon casting." Just that you receive a -3 penalty. The exact wording is:


She reduces her caster level by 3 for all spells she casts from now on.

And:


For example, an 8th-level sorcerer/1st-level wild mage has a base caster level of 6th, not 9th

That indicates a constant 3 CL reduction which Practiced Spellcaster negates.

And even if it didn't, the feat should kick in while you're casting, negating it anyway.

Also, wild mage should prevent you from learning spells of your level, given you can't learn spells with a required CL less than your normal CL, but Practiced Spellcaster negates the penalty, meaning you shouldn't have to deal with that little issue.

[nedz]

Practiced Spellcaster can counter the penalty imposed by Unseen Seer's Divination Spell Power class feature.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The official ruling on the wild mage trick is that the -3 and +1d6 are part of the same ability and must be applied simultaneously. You can’t split them up and stick practiced spellcaster in between.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The official ruling on the wild mage trick is that the -3 and +1d6 are part of the same ability and must be applied simultaneously. You can’t split them up and stick practiced spellcaster in between.The way it's written means you get a permanent -3, but the +1d6 only applies when actively casting a spell. Practiced Spellcaster would negate the -3, and there's nothing stopping the +1d6 from applying when you're casting a spell.

If they didn't want something like that to happen, they should've noted that negating the penalty also negates the bonus. (Also how it interacts with your highest level spells, aside from massively nerfing you.)

[edit] Feats are an incredibly valuable resource. That, and having to qualify for, and taking, wild mage should mean that burning yet another feat should get you a really nice benefit.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The rule is that you can apply your own effects that grant bonuses and/or penalties in the most beneficial order. Wild Magic is a single effect, no matter how many hairs you try to split. You can apply your Practiced Spellcaster effect either before or after your Wild Magic effect, but not half way through it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The rule is that you can apply your own effects that grant bonuses and/or penalties in the most beneficial order. Wild Magic is a single effect, no matter how many hairs you try to split. You can apply your Practiced Spellcaster effect either before or after your Wild Magic effect, but not half way through it.Apply them simultaneously. Done.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Apply them simultaneously. Done.

The RAW doesn’t even imply that this is possible.

[Anthrowhale]

Alternative Source Spell imposes a -1 caster level penalty. If you additionally take Practiced Spellcaster, you'll have the ability to cast your highest level spells via Alternative Source.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Bonus HD via the good version of curse of lycanthropy (the one that gives you the template) or the bard's inspire greatness would grant +2 CLs and/or +2 MLs (or more) in addition to their normal benefits. Thing is, if you're just high enough level to gain a HD-based feat with the bonus HD, you could take one of those feats with it.

[Jack_Simth]

Bonus HD via the good version of curse of lycanthropy (the one that gives you the template) or the bard's inspire greatness would grant +2 CLs and/or +2 MLs (or more) in addition to their normal benefits. Thing is, if you're just high enough level to gain a HD-based feat with the bonus HD, you could take one of those feats with it.
However: Being able to pick a feat on the fly is very useful. Especially with things like "Extra Spell" to get a bonus spell known on a spontaneous caster.

[Crake]

Ultimate Magus - this class has three levels where it only boosts the casting of your arcane class with the lower caster level, Practised Spellcaster will make 2 of these levels actually be your main casting class (all 3 if you take 2 levels of the second class).

this one is my personal favourite trick, it lets you get full 9th level casting on one side while keeping all the neat benefits of ultimate magus.

Especially fun when you throw in versatile spellcaster, to let you use your spontaneous spell slots to spontaneously cast your prepared side spells known whenever you need.

[tiercel]

Bonus HD via the good version of curse of lycanthropy (the one that gives you the template) or the bard's inspire greatness would grant +2 CLs and/or +2 MLs (or more) in addition to their normal benefits. Thing is, if you're just high enough level to gain a HD-based feat with the bonus HD, you could take one of those feats with it.

1) +3CL from Inspire Greatness if the bard has access to Song of the Heart

2) Huh. I hadn’t thought about “bonus HD” potentially granting feats, but that means the “take a 2-level dip in Chameleon to get a floating feat” trick is a lot less impressive if a bard can just amp you up — any caster who wants to dabble in some item construction “just” needs needs a cohort/hireling with 9 levels of Bard and a ring of sustenance (since Inspire Greatness lasts as long as the bard performs, +5 rounds, and there are technically no rules for “but Mr. Wizard, I can’t just play for 8 hours straight” especially once even pesky eating and drinking are out of the way).

Oddly, of course, the bonus feat would only kick in when your HD aren’t divisible by 4....


Additional corollary: Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester are also good for any caster stuck with racial HD that don’t already have an equal caster level baked in.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The RAW doesn’t even imply that this is possible.It would negate the -3 penalty when you're not actively casting, meaning you don't have to worry about losing out on two spell levels. And applying it that way in this situation would mean you would add +1d6 on top of that, since you no longer have the -3 penalty but gain the wild mage's +1d6 bonus.

The ability doesn't say anything about being negated if you negate the penalty, so just shaddap and take your bonus. :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It would negate the -3 penalty when you're not actively casting, meaning you don't have to worry about losing out on two spell levels. And applying it that way in this situation would mean you would add +1d6 on top of that, since you no longer have the -3 penalty but gain the wild mage's +1d6 bonus.

The ability doesn't say anything about being negated if you negate the penalty, so just shaddap and take your bonus. :smallbiggrin:

That’s not how caster level works. The trick you’re pitching hasn’t been a thing in over ten years.

You can apply Practiced Spellcaster after Wild Magic, and get -0 to +3 to your caster level for a given spell. That’s the best it gets if you’re following the rules.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

That’s not how caster level works. The trick you’re pitching hasn’t been a thing in over ten years.

You can apply Practiced Spellcaster after Wild Magic, and get -0 to +3 to your caster level for a given spell. That’s the best it gets if you’re following the rules.

Was this addressed in the errata for Complete Arcane or was it a Sage ruling?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Was this addressed in the errata for Complete Arcane or was it a Sage ruling?

Both the rule the OP cited (applying abilities that grant bonuses/penalties in the most beneficial order) and the rule that explicitly states Wild Magic doesn't interact with Practiced Spellcaster in the way he says it does, are in the official 3.5 FAQ (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a). Thus arguing that the FAQ isn't RAW means the trick he proposed has zero rules support whatsoever. It's one of the most hypocritical tricks in the existence of 3.5. The FAQ clarifies it as follows:



When do “add-on” effects such as poison occur? For
example, if an assassin delivers a death attack with a
weapon bearing wyvern poison, does the poison take effect
first, thus potentially reducing the target’s Fortitude save
against the death attack?
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate
an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or
special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s
most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect.
In this case, the assassin is the “controller” of both the
poison and the death attack, so he’d most likely choose for the
poison to take effect first, and then the death attack.

Note that this specifically states special effects and not individual bonuses/penalties. Thus the entire Wild Magic effect cannot be split up, there is zero rules support for doing so, yet the very rule he's trying to lean on is from a document that also states the following:


How does Practiced Spellcaster interact with the wild
magic class feature of the wild mage (from CAr)?
The –3 penalty and +1d6 bonus to the wild mage’s caster
level are applied as a single step in the process of determining
the wild mage’s caster level. Since Practiced Spellcaster’s
bonus is always applied when it is most beneficial to the
character (see previous answer), a wild mage with Practiced
Spellcaster would typically apply the wild magic class feature
first (subtracting 3 and adding 1d6 to her caster level) and then
add the Practiced Spellcaster benefit, up to a maximum value
equal to her character level.
For example, if a 5th-level wizard/4th-level wild mage with
Practiced Spellcaster rolled a 1 on the 1d6 bonus to her caster
level, her caster level for that spell would be 9th (base 9th, –3
from wild magic penalty, +1 from wild magic bonus, +4 from
Practiced Spellcaster up to a maximum equal to her character
level). If she rolled a 6, her caster level would be 12th (base
9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +6 from wild magic bonus;
the Practiced Spellcaster bonus would not apply since it would
increase her caster level above her character level).
On the other hand, imagine a wild mage whose caster level
(before applying the effects of the wild magic class feature) is
less than her character level, such as a wild mage with levels of
rogue or other non-spellcasting class. She might well choose to
apply the Practiced Spellcaster bonus first, before applying the
wild magic modifiers. A rogue 4/wizard 5/wild mage 4 would
have a base caster level of 9th before any other modifiers are
applied. Adding Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus would increase
this to 13th, at which point the penalty and bonus from wild
magic would be applied. The Sage recommends that players
averse to frequently recalculating caster level avoid playing a
character with this combination, as it is likely to cause
headaches.

[Powerdork]

I seem to recall FAQ is very shaky from a rules interpretation standpoint, compared to Customer Service responses.

However, ignoring those, as they're hard to have at the table in the same way as the books:
A wild mage's caster level for spells is the part of caster level that gets reduced; the caster level used for meeting prerequisites, crafting magic items, and using non-spell effects such as feat benefits isn't influenced at all by the class feature in question. If you have a caster level already not less than your Hit Dice, then the boost doesn't kick in until you take the penalty, and even then, it's not clear if the boost has the time to squeeze in between the reduction and the addition that are both from that one singular class feature. D&D does not have The Stack, so your DM may have opinions about that.

Speaking of item creation, there's an other use for these conditional level boosts; if you dipped a class for the purpose of creating magic items, this gives you a little shortcut to catch up to what a dedicated mage could do.

[Bohandas]

4.) The wild mage PrC inflicts a -3 penalty to your CL and grants a +1d6 bonus on top of that whenever you cast a spell. Taking Practiced Spellcaster negates the penalty, granting a +1d6 bonus, which is quite nice.

Though if the DM is stingy it might work out as the possibilities being +0 +0 +0 +1 +2 and +3

(it depends on the order. It works out like you said if they apply the Wild Magic penalty then practiced spellcaster, then the wild magic bonus. But if they apply the wild magic penalty, and then the wild magic bonus and then practiced spellcaster then it merely cancels out the two out of six results where wild mage would give you a penalty)

[Troacctid]

Others have already mentioned how the OP is wrong about wild mage (it's a combo, but it's not that good a combo), but this one is also incorrect (at least the specific example is).

6.) Prestige classes that stack with other classes but grant their own CLs (such as sublime chord) allow you to double-dip. For instance, Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) + Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord). Not that you'd normally want to lose that many CLs...
Sublime chord wouldn't allow you to double dip in this case. If you're a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 4 with Practiced Spellcaster in both classes, your sublime chord and bard caster levels will be equal to your sublime chord levels plus your bard levels (4 + 10 = 14). Since this is already equal to your HD, Practiced Spellcaster will have no effect. It doesn't matter what order you apply the effects in, either, because sublime chord will set it to the same number regardless of any caster level modifiers for your classes (it counts class levels, not caster levels; great if you're a half-caster, not so great for hyper-scaling CL).

[Hellpyre]

Others have already mentioned how the OP is wrong about wild mage (it's a combo, but it's not that good a combo), but this one is also incorrect (at least the specific example is).

Sublime chord wouldn't allow you to double dip in this case. If you're a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 4 with Practiced Spellcaster in both classes, your sublime chord and bard caster levels will be equal to your sublime chord levels plus your bard levels (4 + 10 = 14). Since this is already equal to your HD, Practiced Spellcaster will have no effect. It doesn't matter what order you apply the effects in, either, because sublime chord will set it to the same number regardless of any caster level modifiers for your classes (it counts class levels, not caster levels; great if you're a half-caster, not so great for hyper-scaling CL).

I'm pretty sure (especially from how the quote ends) that OP meant to make up for up to 8 missing CLs. Not to go above HD for CL.

[Crake]

I'm pretty sure (especially from how the quote ends) that OP meant to make up for up to 8 missing CLs. Not to go above HD for CL.

Well, even if you were a hypothetical bard 10/sublime chord 2/non-caster 8, as troacctid said, sublime chord only takes your bard class levels, not caster level, so you can't double dip. If you had it for both classes, your bard CL would be 14 16 (upon re-reading it, it seems sublime chord also adds its class level to bard level too), and your sublime chord CL would be 16.

[Hellpyre]

Well, even if you were a hypothetical bard 10/sublime chord 2/non-caster 8, as troacctid said, sublime chord only takes your bard class levels, not caster level, so you can't double dip. If you had it for both classes, your bard CL would be 14 16 (upon re-reading it, it seems sublime chord also adds its class level to bard level too), and your sublime chord CL would be 16.

Huh. Actually, looking at the wording, it appears to overwrite your caster level for other arcane classes and replace it with it's own calculation. It makes more sense now that half-casters were mentioned. I misremembered how the feature read.