1-3 level dip for PF Paladin?

[Firechanter]

Hi guys,

my Paladin is currently level 11 and going stronk. So far I haven't bothered a lot about upper-level planning, but while it's still some way to go, I suppose it can't hurt to give it some thought now. Originally, I've been meaning to stay single-class all through the game, but glancing ahead I realized that the level 20 capstone is more of a downgrade rather than a boon, so I sure wouldn't miss it. And as I am about it, levels 18 and 19 aren't that hot either. (Level 17 Compulsion-Immunity is nice, though, so I'd like to pick that up)

Also, I want to keep speccing Paladin until I get access to level 4 spells, so another 2 levels to go. But after that I could consider dipping.

So, long story short: what is a good dip for a combat-monster, avenging-angel Paladin when you have 1-3 levels room in the high echelons of play?
Oracle, maybe? But which Mystery / Revelation is worth it?

FTR, my build so far:
Pathfinder, official content only (no 3.5, no 3PP)
Human Paladin 11, Oath of Vengeance. Str 20(22), Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13(15), Wis 8, Cha 16(18) (with gear)
Feats: Fey Foundling, Power Attack, Greater Mercy, Extra Traits, Cornugon Smash, Hurtful, Leadership
Traits: Magical Knack, Fate's Favoured, Extremely Fashionable, Eyes and Ears of the City (Intimidate and Perception as Class Skills; UMD as Int-Item skill)

So as you can see, I currently have some 9 LoH/day für 6d6+12 HP each, and I can convert 2 LoHs into a Smite when needed.
The idea with Leadership is to pick up a Wizard cohort to fill some gaps in the party.
I picked up UMD via Int-Item to be able to use wands.

Looking forward to your input. :)

[Kurald Galain]

Oracle, life mystery is a good choice here. Use the Shield Other spell and/or Life Link ability to absorb damage for others, then heal yourself as a swift.

[Firechanter]

Say, has Life Link been nerfed some time? The way it is worded on OGN, it seems to heal only 5HP each time the link partner gets wounded. Very unclear phrasing at any rate.

[Kraynic]

Seems pretty clear to me. If the one you are linked to you is 5hp or more below their max, you lose 5hp and they gain 5hp. If that isn't enough for you and your party, you could always use the 2nd level paladin spell Shield Other to take half of someone's damage.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, I guess it does. Wish I could have done this in our old party setup -- we had a Bard who was very squishy and very cheeky (and thus took a lot of unnecessary damage). Ofc I could LoH her, but it just was an inefficient use of resources, compared to taking half her damage or Life-Linking and LoHing myself. Shield Other was out simply b/c I didn't have enough spell slots. In the future, I should be able to afford a wand. So, that would be a decent method to keep my Wizard cohort alive if nothing else.

[Psyren]

If you worship Iomedae, an interesting dip might be the Inheritor's Crusader (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/inheritor-s-crusader/) - a 3-level PrC that has 3/3 BAB, 3/3 casting, advances smite 3/3 as well and doubles the radius of your aura of courage. In addition, you gain the ability to use your channel energy to break charm and compulsion effects on yourself and allies, even if the effect would normally keep you from using this ability or if you're being forced to use your channel for another purpose.

You can also confirm someone's guilt or innocence with a sword swing, which has the potential to wreck an intrigue-focused campaign but is an interesting ability nonetheless.

[Firechanter]

Ah, bummer -- that PrC looks lovely, but my Pally is a follower of Abadar, and what's more I traded away Channel Energy for the OoV ACF. So I'd need to respec quite a lot, and especially the fluffy bits would feel rather weird at this point in the campaign.

(If I had known that there are Oh so many interesting features available for Iomedae Paladins, while Abadar Pallys basically get squat, I might have gone for the Inheritor from the get-go.)

[Psyren]

Your other option is the alternate capstones that were added in some of the later books like Heroes of Golarion. The paladin page on Archives of Nethys (https://aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Paladin) has a list of the ones they qualify for, and these replace the lackluster Holy Champion.

I would go for Great Beast, Perfect Body/Flawless Mind, or With This Sword. The latter two in particular are fitting for a follower of Abadar, especially the last one as such an artifact wouldn't be out of place in the Vaultkeeper's trove.

[Firechanter]

Oh! Thanks for pointing those out, I wasn't aware that these existed. Turn out OGN (which I use 99% of the time) only has one of these alt capstones listed under the Paladin class - the one with the aura ranges. Probably because the other ones are open to all classes. Anyway.

Extra ability points of course are always welcome, or pimping an item might be fine (though I'm not too well versed with artifacts). Great Beast is out because I picked the weapon bond.

Come to think of it, it's kinda funny -- up to now my char has been lugging around a veritable golf bag of weapons, mostly Bane ones: a Giantbane, an Undeadbane, a Humanbane, and a Feybane sword in a Bane Baldric to cover the gaps. (Only the Giantbane was made to order, the rest were quest rewards or drops.) Oh and a bow for the odd ranged engagement. I've been thinking about selling all the melee weapons and have a Vicious one with more Plusses made for the money - but actually I suspect that would cut into the mileage I get out of the Weapon Bond. So I'm still not sure what "signature weapon" I should be shooting for.

[Psyren]

Oh! Thanks for pointing those out, I wasn't aware that these existed. Turn out OGN (which I use 99% of the time) only has one of these alt capstones listed under the Paladin class - the one with the aura ranges. Probably because the other ones are open to all classes. Anyway.

Extra ability points of course are always welcome, or pimping an item might be fine (though I'm not too well versed with artifacts). Great Beast is out because I picked the weapon bond.

Come to think of it, it's kinda funny -- up to now my char has been lugging around a veritable golf bag of weapons, mostly Bane ones: a Giantbane, an Undeadbane, a Humanbane, and a Feybane sword in a Bane Baldric to cover the gaps. (Only the Giantbane was made to order, the rest were quest rewards or drops.) Oh and a bow for the odd ranged engagement. I've been thinking about selling all the melee weapons and have a Vicious one with more Plusses made for the money - but actually I suspect that would cut into the mileage I get out of the Weapon Bond. So I'm still not sure what "signature weapon" I should be shooting for.

Well for starters, you have 100k to work with using that capstone, so you have breathing room to come up with something fairly unique. One I would suggest in order to remove your golfbag of bane weapons, is a sword (which happens to be your bonded object) that you could switch the Bane property of as a move or swift action. The whole point of a capstone is to be a transformational boost that gets you through the end of the game after all.

[Firechanter]

Heh. That would be the _real_ Ovinrbaane / Bane of Enemies. xD
(srsly, props to Paizo for coming up with such a lovely Old Norse name. Shame on them for making the weapon that goes with it so lame.)

So, basically, Artifacts are allowed to "break the rules" of magic item properties?

What if my weapon already is an Artifact - can I add properties to that, too, by regular MI rules or through this capstone?
Anyway, I don't expect to still have that golfbag when I get near level 20 -- in the past it has been mostly due to WBL optimization, and I think money will not be as big of an object in the future.

Oh btw -- you know what kind of Paladin capstone I would have loved? Something like 5E's "Avenging Angel", only permanent / at-will. Angelic Aspect already is by far my favourite spell -- looking forward to the Greater version.

[Psyren]

So, basically, Artifacts are allowed to "break the rules" of magic item properties?


Artifacts break the rules period :smalltongue: But the idea behind that capstone is that you should sit with your GM and make something suitably epic (or near-epic.) For me, a mutable Bane property would be a fine part of a level 20 weapon.

[Kurald Galain]

a Feybane sword in a Bane Baldric to cover the gaps.
That also means you already have bane-against-everything, albeit only for five rounds per day. Still, a capstone artifact weapon should probably do something bigger than a 10,000-gp magic item.

[FaerieGodfather]

Oh! Thanks for pointing those out, I wasn't aware that these existed. Turn out OGN (which I use 99% of the time) only has one of these alt capstones listed under the Paladin class - the one with the aura ranges. Probably because the other ones are open to all classes. Anyway.

They're under Character Advancement (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/#Alternative_Capstone_Class_Features).

[Firechanter]

That also means you already have bane-against-everything, albeit only for five rounds per day. Still, a capstone artifact weapon should probably do something bigger than a 10,000-gp magic item.

I concur. ^^
The Bane Baldric is a lovely item, but 5 rounds sometimes feel a bit stingy, and switching Types conflicts with my other uses for Swift Actions. I need Swifts to activate Smite, Lay on Hands, execute Hurtful attacks and adjust Bane. Needless to say, I never prep Swift Action spells.

Alright, talking about capstones aside -- maybe you guys have some ideas how I could fill some other gaps:
- what would also be lovely would be a way to Smite Chaos instead of Evil when necessary. (No, Oath against Chaos is not an option)
- are there any ways to frighten (demoralize) creatures normally immune to Mind-Affecting, such as Undead?

[Psyren]

Alright, talking about capstones aside -- maybe you guys have some ideas how I could fill some other gaps:
- what would also be lovely would be a way to Smite Chaos instead of Evil when necessary. (No, Oath against Chaos is not an option)
- are there any ways to frighten (demoralize) creatures normally immune to Mind-Affecting, such as Undead?

1) The primary way is Oath agai- oh, okay, that one's out. Hellknight? Especially Order of the Godclaw as that one has Iomedaean Paladins canonically in its ranks.

2) Pick up Turn Undead to use with your Channel Energy?

[Firechanter]

The main problem with Oath against Chaos is that is flat out replaces Smite Evil. I'd basically like to just adjust my Smite for those enemies that happen to be CN.

Hellknight, yes, theoretically that would be an option. ^^ That just reminded me that I had actually tried to talk to my DM about taking a few Hellknight levels, but he didn't seem thrilled. Also, I'm not sure it would really be a good fit for my character, RP-wise, but ofc you don't need to worry about that. I'd have to read up on them some more to figure it out.

Edit: oh and as for #2, as I said I traded away Channel Energy. Anyway, after the last adventure was pretty Undead-heavy, I don't think they'll be the major enemy again in this campaign.

[KatsOfLoathing]

On the subject of that Oracle dip, the Lore mystery and Sidestep Secret revelation is a really nice combo, letting you use Cha in place of Dex to determine your AC and Reflex bonus. If you're willing to invest two more levels (or a feat), Focused Trance will give you huge bonuses to Knowledge checks a couple times per day (and you get all Knowledge skills as class skills just for picking the mystery, for an added boost).

Determining your curse is also important if you want to take that plunge, though, since many curses can offer serious downsides to a full-melee character like your Paladin - but on the other hand, it's worth noting that curses improve at half the rate of your total character level in addition to your oracle level, so you'd immediately swing the 5th-level benefits of the curse with just one level in oracle.

As for your choice in curses... Clouded Vision is right out. Lame will give you a permanent speed decrease, but you can get out of it by using Strange Revelation to grab Dance of Blades from the Metal mystery. Tongues has light benefits but also light penalties; same with Legalistic. Haunted won't hurt you much, but you also won't get much mileage out of the bonus spells it provides. Wasting is potentially okay depending on how much time you spend in the face role. Deaf will dock your initiative checks but can be useful for stealth missions. There's also the various Curses of Corruption, which I'm not well-versed in. Take your pick.

[Psyren]

The main problem with Oath against Chaos is that is flat out replaces Smite Evil. I'd basically like to just adjust my Smite for those enemies that happen to be CN.

It "replaces" it, but you still get to use Smite Evil if you need to, it just costs LoH uses.


Hellknight, yes, theoretically that would be an option. ^^ That just reminded me that I had actually tried to talk to my DM about taking a few Hellknight levels, but he didn't seem thrilled. Also, I'm not sure it would really be a good fit for my character, RP-wise, but ofc you don't need to worry about that. I'd have to read up on them some more to figure it out.

If you're interested in this route I would show him the Godclaw order entry (https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Godclaw), as stated it specifically allows Iomedae worshipers. If you hate chaos that much then it should be doable with your character.

[Firechanter]

In fact it sounds tempting to just dip Oracle and then spend the remainder of my feats on Extra Revelations. One archetype I've been eyeing is the Cyclops Seer one -- I don't have the splatbook so I only know the OGN version, but I take it you don't need to be a cyclops to pick it? The big draw here is certainly the Flash of Insight - picking a die result 1/day can be super golden (say, when you swing at a Boss).

Sidestep Secret looks neat at first glance, but I don't see how I could get more than 2 points of AC out of it, since the Dex cap still applies. I have Dex 12, Cha 18 (soon 20), so even with my Mithral Fullplate I couldn't make use of my entire Cha bonus. Celestial Plate might not be on the cards. xD As for Ref Saves, I consider these just "nice to have", usually it's just hit points, and there's always more where those came from (thanks to my immense LoH reserve).

[KatsOfLoathing]

In fact it sounds tempting to just dip Oracle and then spend the remainder of my feats on Extra Revelations. One archetype I've been eyeing is the Cyclops Seer one -- I don't have the splatbook so I only know the OGN version, but I take it you don't need to be a cyclops to pick it? The big draw here is certainly the Flash of Insight - picking a die result 1/day can be super golden (say, when you swing at a Boss).

Sidestep Secret looks neat at first glance, but I don't see how I could get more than 2 points of AC out of it, since the Dex cap still applies. I have Dex 12, Cha 18 (soon 20), so even with my Mithral Fullplate I couldn't make use of my entire Cha bonus. Celestial Plate might not be on the cards. xD As for Ref Saves, I consider these just "nice to have", usually it's just hit points, and there's always more where those came from (thanks to my immense LoH reserve).

Cyclopean Seer is a pretty great archetype, but you'd need at least three levels for Flash of Insight without Extra Revelation, since Assume Fate is taking up your 1st-level slot. Speaking of which, Assume Fate is super weird as a PC ability. I guess it's helpful if you have a blaster mage friend who doesn't care too much about friendly fire? The archetype also locks your curse choices; I'd probably recommend Powerless Prophecy of the four you can pick. Uncanny Dodge is a pretty nice survivability boost.

Aye, I figured that might come up with Sidestep Secret. Nothing strictly wrong with dropping down one armor tier to better take advantage of it unless your budget can't afford it, I would say. As for picking up Extra Revelations... it's dicey. You'll want to find a mystery that 1) has a lot of revelations you'd want to take, and 2) doesn't offer a lot of revelations that are dependent on oracle class level (which is a lot of them). Doing both might be a challenge.