How are Lowlevel PCs expected to fight Swarms?

[Firechanter]

Hi guys n gals,
just a quick question: since Paizo loves to throw Swarms at lowlevel PCs in their APs, I wonder how the authors even _imagine_ the players should handle them.
- Insect Swarms are immune to weapon damage, so about 3/4 of the party probably can't do anything at all
- Level 1 spells are in short supply and also do very limited damage at the lowest levels
- meanwhile PF Swarms often have absurd hit points and move at ludicrous speed.

Case Study: Skull & Shackles 1. The level 2 PCs are on an undead-infested island. The only potentially safe resting place is in an old fort and the players have to fight several encounters before they get there. However, there's a mosquito swarm there that beggars all description: Fly Speed 40', 31HP, damage 2d6 + Disease (Filth Fever) + Bleed.
I mean srsly, WTF? :smallfurious:

There's no place to stock up, no provisions far and wide to be had, no way to prepare. And certainly no way to get a Swarm Suit or a Swarmbane Clasp.
The swarm would need _4_ Burning Hands and then some torch damage to finish off. Highly unlikely a spellcaster has that many castings available at that point. Even if they did, and managed to dodge the Distraction, they'd probably also cause Friendly Fire. During those 4 rounds, the swarm would inflict 8d6 damage + Bleed - against level 2 PCs with maybe 18-20 HP if they're fresh.
If you want to run away, you have to slug through difficult terrain, while the gnats out of hell can just fly in a beeline.

So, you can't hurt em, you can't run away from them, you can't rest before you get rid of them - what are you supposed to do?

Those APs are supposed to be doable even with the Iconics as PCs. I call shenanigans on that.
FTR, when I played that bit years ago, the GM allowed the Gunslinger to blow the gnats up with his gunpowder, but that was pure handwaving and had nothing to do with the rules.

So, am I just uninformed? Is there an AoE Cantrip or something that every party is expected to have that I simply don't know? Or are the Paizo authors simply completely out of their minds?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I want to start by agreeing with you. Swarms (and weapon-immune baddies in general, like Shadows) are notoriously overpowered for level 1-2 adventurers, and this seems to be an especially egregious example. Now on to problem solving for future parties.

The one weakness of low-level swarms is that they tend to lack a hive mind and so have Int --. Such a creature has zero tactics; it will just go to the nearest living thing and try to consume it, regardless of what else is happening. If there is any other living thing in the area for a mosquito swarm to consume, it shouldn't necessarily "beeline" for PCs who are getting away at top speed, or even PCs swinging torches at the swarm. So at the very least if there are other creatures around it shouldn't necessarily be a TPK. If the PCs have pack animals with slow move speeds (or who are tied up somewhere) then they can probably get the pack animals to "tank" the swarm while they chip it to death with torches and what AoE spells they *do* have. I couldn't find donkey stats in the pfsrd but the d20srd would suggest a donkey can tank ~2 rounds of a swarm while costing a meager amount of money, even for level 2 PCs.

At first it seems a bit strange for a group of PCs to have a bunch of donkeys/horses/whathaveyou following them around everywhere. But why shouldn't murderhobo PCs also be pastoral nomads? They already travel from place to place without a home, they already mostly live off the land, they already contract with local sedentary peoples to raid their rivals (ye olde quest to clear the goblin camp) and provide sundry mercenary services, and they already need extra beasts of burden following them around when they invariably strip mine whatever dungeon they clear out.

[Doctor Awkward]

Three words:

Gust of Wind (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm)

[Unavenger]

They aren't. Writers probably just slap thematically-appropriate encounters of approximately correct CR in their APs. Meanwhile, the people in charge of coming up with the CRs probably just copy-pasted them from 3.5, and Wizards of the Coast in turn forgot how powerful weapon damage immunity is.

[Seerow]

They aren't. Writers probably just slap thematically-appropriate encounters of approximately correct CR in their APs. Meanwhile, the people in charge of coming up with the CRs probably just copy-pasted them from 3.5, and Wizards of the Coast in turn forgot how powerful weapon damage immunity is.

Even compared to 3.5 swarms that swarm seems over the top. A cr2 bat swarm has only 13 hp and deals 1d6 damage. Easily handled with some torches without serious danger of tpk.

A centipede swarm is cr4 and has 31hp with 2d6+poison damage, but only has a 20ft land speed and no fly speed, so you can easily run away, or even kite it while chipping away with torches.

A swarm with that fly speed and those stats sounds closer to cr5 or cr6 which is theoretically doable, but probably should not be thrown at an unprepared party, especially at the end of a long day of draining resources with no escape route.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Three words:

Gust of Wind (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm)At the level where PCs are starting to access 2nds (so, not 1 or 2), Flaming Sphere will straight up kill the swarm by itself. Though I agree that at higher levels with nastier swarms, (a scroll of) Gust of Wind is exactly what you need to buy some time for the meleers to put on their Swarmbane Clasps... if they weren't wearing them already.

[ericgrau]

Oil is 1 sp a pint. Torches are 1 cp and also help. Always have oil on every character, just like other basics: backpack, food, water, ranged weapon, etc. Especially on Pathfinder adventure paths you want oil and soon after (level 3-4) alchemical items. If all else fails, walk away briskly from the swarm. For all their defenses, swarms don't do a lot of damage. And if you can do a little damage even with oil, they're easy enough to deal with.

Swarms often get a bad rap due to internet hyperbole. "How can a PC deal with an enemy his weapon won't hit?!" They are actually pathetically weak, as they should be in exchange for requiring special measures to defeat. They're really not a big deal at all. And heaven forbid a system should like to use challenges that aren't immediately solved by poking it with a pointy object. In fact they help keep things interesting.

Let's take for example a CR 1 spider swarm. 3 of them are supposed to be a difficult fight for a level 1 party. 4 for a level 2 party. 1 of them is a routine fight at level 1, 2 at level 2 is routine. They deal 1d6 damage and have 9 HP. Their speed is only 20 feet, so simply leaving is an option. Oil averages 2.7 damage per round to them, though it takes an additional round of waiting to get the entire damage (1d3*1.5 for 2 rounds). They average 3.5 damage per round to the PCs. If 4 PCs simply lob oil and use no spells or class abilities at all, they will kill about 1 per round. Plus an additional round at the end for the oil to finish burning. This entire time it is possible to kite them. During that time:

3 vs a level 1 party ("difficult" fight): 4 rounds to kill. Assuming 3,3,2,1 are alive each round and don't die before their turn, they deal 31.5 damage. Wounded PCs can easily back off and let others take hits, or worst case scenario at least survive well enough while unconscious while allies get their attention. Typical party has (10+3)+(8+3)+(8+3)+(6+3)=44 HP.
4 vs a level 2 party ("difficult" fight): 5 rounds to kill. Assuming 4,4,3,2,1 are alive each round, they deal 49 damage. Typical party has (10+5.5+3*2)+(8+4.5+3*2)+(8+4.5+3*2)+(6+3.5+3*2)=7 4 HP.
1 vs a level 1 party ("routine" fight): 2 rounds to kill. Assuming it gets a chance to act both rounds, it deals 7 damage. Party laughs it off.
2 vs a level 2 party ("routine" fight): 3 rounds to kill. Assuming 2,2,1 are alive each round, it deals 17.5 damage. Party laughs it off.

If everyone brings and preps their oil, they are simple to defeat with no class features at all. Which you really should do on every character because by now Pathfinder adventure paths are famous for having swarms. With alchemical items and/or spells they are even easier. If anything they would seem very over-CR'd, except you know there is going to be that one guy in the party who isn't prepared. So perhaps the CR is fair.



Case Study: Skull & Shackles 1. The level 2 PCs are on an undead-infested island. The only potentially safe resting place is in an old fort and the players have to fight several encounters before they get there. However, there's a mosquito swarm there that beggars all description: Fly Speed 40', 31HP, damage 2d6 + Disease (Filth Fever) + Bleed.
I mean srsly, WTF? :smallfurious:


4 rounds to kill. Deals 28 damage in the meantime plus effects. Maybe goes into a 5th round if he focuses his attacks and chases the wounded PC that backs off, though I don't think a mindless creature would. Trivial encounter. Failing a save on the disease is a little annoying long term though. Some minor dex and con damage in a couple days. Some heal checks can help, as does resting normally to restore party of the damage.

[Psyren]

So, you can't hurt em, you can't run away from them, you can't rest before you get rid of them - what are you supposed to do?

Some Alchemist's Fire makes for a decent low-level answer to swarms. But yes, they do tend to be under-CRed. With that said, see below:

As far as not being able to run away - why not? Sure they have a high top speed, but they also mill around each other and, as mentioned, are mindless - it should be easy to divert them using some other animal like a cow or even a summon. In other words, it shouldn't be too hard to keep them from beelining anywhere. In addition, avoiding them entirely should be easy for the party too - swarms are LOUD! Give them a warning and the chance to divert if there is going to be one in their path, even if it means they have to take a longer route around.

If I recall that AP correctly, you can go through the whole swamp without encountering one because there's only a % chance they appear and only if the PCs are resting outside.


TL;DR play mindless creatures properly, don't give them a grudge against the PCs or intelligent tactics - playing them that way should raise their CR, in which case of course they're going to be too heavy a challenge.

[denthor]

Three words:

Gust of Wind (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm)


I have never taken that spell. You must be 3rd level. We are speaking about 1st and 2nd level parties. Not even wind wall is up for grabs.

[Kurald Galain]

Hi guys n gals,
just a quick question: since Paizo loves to throw Swarms at lowlevel PCs in their APs, I wonder how the authors even _imagine_ the players should handle them.
You dive under water and hold your breath until the swarm goes away, or you set something on fire and stand in the smoke until the swarm goes away. These work in real life, too.

That said, almost all low-level swarms are vulnerable to weapons, or slow enough to walk away from, or often both. You're basically picking the single worst swarm in the book and assuming that all swarms are like that.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Ericgrau: "Some effects" include 1d6 bleed. If PCs are taking actions to stop the bleed then you have to add more rounds-to-kill, which increases total damage. If not then it's a lot more than 28 damage in those 4 rounds, and we're assuming everyone's still standing to pelt it with oil. A straight up fight with level 2 PCs begs for a TPK.

Psyren: Assuming a level 2 caster has SM I prepared despite its 2 round duration, a pony will probably buy the party those 2 rounds... if the caster can get it off. If everything is going to crap, does the party have time to wait for the 1 round casting time? As a "prep before battle" spell I think it turns the fight into a likely (if still dangerous) victory, but I'm not sure about its merits as a getaway device. Summoners obviously fare better here. If the party has nearby pack animals they're willing to sacrifice, that suffices as well. As far as making the swarm loud, how does the DM convey that it is a "red flag: avoid" type of encounter? It's literally a bunch of bugs.

[ericgrau]

That said, almost all low-level swarms are vulnerable to weapons, or slow enough to walk away from, or often both. You're basically picking the single worst swarm in the book and assuming that all swarms are like that.
And at 2d6 per round plus bleed & minor disease to the entire party, and mindless targeting, that swarm is still a trivial encounter.

Swarms are over CR'd if anything. But the CR makes sense if you assume some of the party isn't prepared at all, not even with 1 sp molatov cocktails. If the entire party isn't prepared with even the basics, it's time to forfeit your rpg gamer license.


Ericgrau: "Some effects" include 1d6 bleed. If PCs are taking actions to stop the bleed then you have to add more rounds-to-kill, which increases total damage. If not then it's a lot more than 28 damage in those 4 rounds, and we're assuming everyone's still standing to pelt it with oil. A straight up fight with level 2 PCs begs for a TPK.
Ah I was wondering what the bleed amount was. 42+ damage if the bleed is not treated, no one casts cure light wounds and the swarm has the highest initiative. Most likely PCs will back off twice during the fight, causing new bleed targets and about 7-10.5 more damage. 49-52.5 damage total. That's a bit more damage and pretty risky... with no class features at all. If a PC does cast cure light wounds, that negates the swarm's entire actions for the round, while meanwhile 3 other PCs still get to act. Ditto if the PC downs a potion, which the party will have if they're insane enough to have no cleric or druid. Ditto for other class features that make it easier.

This is absolute worst case scenario and it's still pretty trivial.

[Gnaeus]

We took it out pretty easily. I had a vizier, and my spammable AOE combined with the round it spent attacking my zombie servant (which was immune to its badness) made it a pretty easy fight.

That said, many of the tactics suggested here are difficult in that AP. You just took a launch to an island, so you won’t have any animals. And the PCs in that AP lose all their gear and are forced to scavenge from a pirate ship. I don’t remember if we had the option of buying a bunch of oil.

[ericgrau]

We took it out pretty easily. I had a vizier, and my spammable AOE combined with the round it spent attacking my zombie servant (which was immune to its badness) made it a pretty easy fight.

That said, many of the tactics suggested here are difficult in that AP. You just took a launch to an island, so you won’t have any animals. And the PCs in that AP lose all their gear and are forced to scavenge from a pirate ship. I don’t remember if we had the option of buying a bunch of oil.

No gear followed by a difficult fight is pretty rude of the module. And more an error of giving too high of a CR under the circumstances if anything. But agreed there are lots of class features that are much better than oil. Even if the entire party doesn't have them, a little bit is enough against a creature with such a weak attack.

[Unavenger]

And at 2d6 per round plus bleed & minor disease to the entire party, and mindless targeting, that swarm is still a trivial encounter.

Swarms are over CR'd if anything. But the CR makes sense if you assume some of the party isn't prepared at all, not even with 1 sp molatov cocktails. If the entire party isn't prepared with even the basics, it's time to forfeit your rpg gamer license.

"1sp molatov cocktails" being the oil that does all of 2 damage a round, and only to creatures on the ground? Or that has a 50% chance to work as alchemist's fire, which can't be used to target the swarm directly?

If you try to use oil by throwing it, it deals 1 point of splash damage, 50% of the time, taking 2 rounds to prep. If you pour it on the ground, then to nonflying swarms it will deal 2 lots of 2 damage, multiplied by 1.5, so 6 damage, again over 2 rounds, and it's not clear that multiple uses of oil stack. But against these mosquitoes, you're doing all of 1 damage per round on average between four party members. In that time, that 31 rounds, the party is taking 2d6 automatic damage every round, plus 1d6 bleed (which doesn't stack), so we're saying something like 60d6=210 points of damage, plus whatever the bleed totals to. The party will have spent over 12gp on oil and died, on average, about two or three times each.

Needless to say, I'm not impressed.

[Psyren]

As far as making the swarm loud, how does the DM convey that it is a "red flag: avoid" type of encounter? It's literally a bunch of bugs.

"A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures."

That's way, way more than "a bunch of bugs." You should be able to hear that coming a mile away, and as the party gets closer to the source, the GM should be investing that description with all the danger it entails. The characters should know something is up even if the players don't think anything is out of the ordinary.

[ericgrau]

"1sp molatov cocktails" being the oil that does all of 2 damage a round, and only to creatures on the ground? Or that has a 50% chance to work as alchemist's fire, which can't be used to target the swarm directly?

If you try to use oil by throwing it, it deals 1 point of splash damage, 50% of the time, taking 2 rounds to prep. If you pour it on the ground, then to nonflying swarms it will deal 2 lots of 2 damage, multiplied by 1.5, so 6 damage, again over 2 rounds, and it's not clear that multiple uses of oil stack. But against these mosquitoes, you're doing all of 1 damage per round on average between four party members. In that time, that 31 rounds, the party is taking 2d6 automatic damage every round, plus 1d6 bleed (which doesn't stack), so we're saying something like 60d6=210 points of damage, plus whatever the bleed totals to. The party will have spent over 12gp on oil and died, on average, about two or three times each.

Needless to say, I'm not impressed.

I double checked the rules and it says it works as alchemists fire, with 50% success. 1d6 per round for 2 rounds. x1.5 damage against swarms because it's a splash attack. "Prepping them" is putting a wick in. Like I said you should do this ahead of time with some flasks as soon as you get the oil. Because many PF modules have swarms and you should know about them quickly enough.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances/#Oil_Lamp
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/Creature-types/#Swarm_Subtype

So actually it's twice as much damage as what I said. I was skimming and originally read 1d3 ground AOE, which doesn't apply. But with their touch AC it only hits half the time, so it evens out to about the same. And also, this is with the simplest attack anyone could muster. Even a commoner. One simple class feature like cure light wounds or an AOE spell is far stronger. I can see why Gnaeus had an easy time. Point is, 4 NPC warriors with no class features could win with difficulty. But even if half the party is derping and half the party has a good answer in their class, even this worst case scenario swarm is pretty easy.

[Unavenger]

I double checked the rules and it says it works as alchemists fire, with 50% success. 1d6 per round for 2 rounds. x1.5 damage against swarms because it's a splash attack. "Prepping them" is putting a wick in. Like I said you should do this ahead of time with some flasks as soon as you get the oil.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances/#Oil_Lamp
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/Creature-types/#Swarm_Subtype

So actually it's twice as much damage as what I said. But with their touch AC it only hits half the time, so it evens out to about the same. And also, this is with the simplest attack anyone could muster. One simple class feature like cure light wounds or an AOE spell is far stronger.

"A swarm is immune to any[...] effect that targets a specific number of creatures" You can't hit them directly with alchemist's fire (it's not as though you're going to throw a bottle of nasty stuff at them and it'll break on impact). You can hit them with the splash damage, which is one (and given how PF maths works 1*1.5=1) but that's about it. If you assume that you can prepare flasks ahead of time (I'm skeptical of the realism of doing that without risking accidentally spilling the oil everywhere while travelling, but never mind that) then you still need two attacks to deal one point of damage.

(Incidentally, I miscalculated: you only need 62 flasks of oil, weighing that many pounds and costing 62 silver).

EDIT: As for CLW, that buys you a round (on average, it leaves you down a hit point, but that's splitting hairs) and it has its own problems, like reaching the person you want to heal.

[ericgrau]

^ The swarm rules specifically mention splash weapons. Damage is still 1d6x2 not 1.

[Unavenger]

^ The swarm rules specifically mention splash weapons. Damage is still 1d6x2 not 1.

Splash weapons do two things: hit directly, and deal splash damage. The first of those is "any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures" and they're immune. The second is "Spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash Weapons and many Evocation Spells." You can deal the splash damage, but not the direct hit damage. This is painfully clear. Is the direct hit damage from alchemist's fire an effect? Yes. Does it target a specific number of creatures? Damn right it does. Are swarms immune to it? You bet.

(From a RACSD perspective, a bottle of oil cannot break on impact with a mosquito.)

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Torches, alchemical weapons, damage cantrips, etc

[ericgrau]

Splash weapons do two things: hit directly, and deal splash damage. The first of those is "any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures" and they're immune. The second is "Spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash Weapons and many Evocation Spells." You can deal the splash damage, but not the direct hit damage. This is painfully clear. Is the direct hit damage from alchemist's fire an effect? Yes. Does it target a specific number of creatures? Damn right it does. Are swarms immune to it? You bet.

(From a RACSD perspective, a bottle of oil cannot break on impact with a mosquito.)

I see where you're coming from. You seem to be talking about a RAW dysfunction like drowning to heal. There's a discussion about it here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t18o?Does-Alchemist-Fire-damage-a-swarm and here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ld31?Alchemist-fire-thrown-to-a-a-swarm-of-bats .

It's still pretty silly, makes some things the rules say pointless and so clearly isn't as intended, and I've never seen it played that way.

It's still worst case scenario. If half the party has halfway decent class features and half the party sits on their butts, the fight is easy. 3d6 damage a round (2d6 if CLW'd before the target's turn) to an entire level 2 party just isn't a lot. If the party has a halfway decent answer at all, the fight is over.

[Rynjin]

The party I'm running S&S for had an Alchemist at the time; thankfully this was before he died.

The AP also provides the opportunity to garner somewhere north of 30 flasks of Alchemist's Fire. 6 are provided guaranteed (in the Whore's Boudoir on the island itself).


Those APs are supposed to be doable even with the Iconics as PCs. I call shenanigans on that.

Re: The Iconics: The ones that are the "canon" characters in the AP (featured in the art) are some of the ones better equipped for this. They are Seltyiel (the Magus), Alahazra (Flame Oracle), Merisiel (Rogue), and Valeros (Fighter). Merisiel, Valeros, and Seltyiel are all, amusingly enough, explicitly statted with vials of Alchemist's Fire and/or Acid apiece, while Alahazra gets a total of 5 Burning Hands per day. and Seltyiel COULD have learned some useful spells by level 2 (he's statted as only preparing True Strike and Shield, but Burning Hands is on his list).

[Crake]

(From a RACSD perspective, a bottle of oil cannot break on impact with a mosquito.)

No, but you could still uncork a flask of alchemists fire and splash it over the mosquitos.

But honestly, a lit torch doing 1d3 damage to a swarm is pretty much the expected method to deal with them at low levels, 4 people swinging a torch is 8 damage on average per round if they all hit, but lets be generous and say only half hit, so 4 damage per round. Thats 2-3 rounds tops of being hit, and if you spread out a bit the swarm will only be able to hit one or two of you per round.

[Unavenger]

I see where you're coming from. You seem to be talking about a RAW dysfunction like drowning to heal. There's a discussion about it here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t18o?Does-Alchemist-Fire-damage-a-swarm

It's still pretty silly, makes some things the rules say pointless and clearly isn't as intended, and I've never seen it played that way.

It's still worst case scenario. If half the party has halfway decent class features and half the party sits on their butts, the fight is easy.

It's not a RAW dysfunction, it's just common sense. The direct hit damage is from directly hitting something, and the bottle breaking open and spraying alchemist's fire on someone, like so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0577.html). You can't break a bottle on a mosquito.

The best class features I can think of for dealing with the fight are the already-mentioned burning hands (which will deal about 7 damage, hence the assessment that you need four and change from the OP) and maybe CLW to buy some time. The swarm, on the other hand, can deal 2d6+bleed to potentially multiple party members every turn. If you happen to have a sorcerer and a cleric, then you might be fine (although you'll burn most of the day's spell slots). If you have a wizard and a druid, then you might have issues. Certainly, I don't see it being trivial no matter what.


No, but you could still uncork a flask of alchemists fire and splash it over the mosquitos.

Emphasis mine. :smallamused:


But honestly, a lit torch doing 1d3 damage to a swarm is pretty much the expected method to deal with them at low levels, 4 people swinging a torch is 8 damage on average per round if they all hit, but lets be generous and say only half hit, so 4 damage per round. Thats 2-3 rounds tops of being hit, and if you spread out a bit the swarm will only be able to hit one or two of you per round.

4 damage per round vs the 31-hp swarm is not 2-3 rounds tops. It's 8 rounds. And at level 2, you only have enough HP to survive a couple of hits from that thing if you're tough or lucky.

[AvatarVecna]

This thread had taught me that enemies can be easily taken out by appropriately-leveled casters/pseudo-casters who are prepared for such a fight. This new knowledge is of great use to me.

[Rynjin]

This thread had taught me that enemies can be easily taken out by appropriately-leveled casters/pseudo-casters who are prepared for such a fight. This new knowledge is of great use to me.

Or non-casters of players who have a bit of game savvy. I can't remember the last time I didn't buy at least one flask of Alchemist's Fire with my character's leftover gold.

All APs provide quite a lot of these at low levels as well, it's a favorite for 1st through 3rd level gear. Speaking of, after a doublecheck PCs are supposed to hit 3rd at some point on the Isle. Before the latter half of it.

[Kurald Galain]

If you want to get RAW-nitpicky on it, then swarms take 150% damage from splash weapons; not "only from the splash part of a splash weapon".

RACSD? The vial breaks on the floor, and the ensuing flame hurts the mosquitoes near the floor.

[Unavenger]

If you want to get RAW-nitpicky on it, then swarms take 150% damage from splash weapons; not "only from the splash part of a splash weapon".

RACSD? The vial breaks on the floor, and the ensuing flame hurts the mosquitoes near the floor.

Except, that's not what it says. And the "Hurting the mosquitoes near the floor" is what splash damage is.

[ericgrau]

Let's set aside for a moment that PF adventure paths are famously loaded with swarms, it's common knowledge that alchemical items are the way to deal with them if you don't have an area class feature, that thousands of DMs running them across the country and rule it this way, that the modules themselves are loaded with alchemical items to help you fight the enemies within the module. Let's say none of that works at all and everyone across the country is doing it wrong...

Burning hands is a good low level spell. Sure it's sucktastic the moment you get 3rd level spells. Sure color spray is often better. It's AOE damage in a level 1 slot. It's save half, at a level when foes have so little HP that half is still pretty good. Rather than save negates like color spray. The moment I see a couple CR 1/2 zombies I'm busting out my burning hands. And those and similar foes immune to sleep/color spray are certainly common enough at low level to warrant a backup plan. Probably I'll prepare both burning hands and either color spray or sleep. And color spray/sleep first, yes. But I'm getting both types of spells. Cure light wounds also totally overwhelms the mosquito swarm's attack. Between the classic cleric and wizard, the fighter and rogue can provide a pitiful contribution and the party is still overwhelming what the swarm can do twice over. Perhaps the fighter and rogue can soak some hits.

Let that set in. Cure light wounds and burning hands. So either (a) You're telling me you're a conjurer who banned evocation, playing a god wizard who laughs at basic spells, optimizes well and yet didn't prepare a good substitute instead of burning hands. No way, you have something if you optimize that well. Or (b) You're a rookie player who still has an easy time of overwhelming swarms with the most obvious spells.

Saying that one particular easy and commonly used way doesn't work doesn't really help the argument when there are 100 different ways to assault swarms, swarm existence is common knowledge and they are so weak that even partial party preparation is plenty.

[Kris Moonhand]

Every single Paizo AP I've ever played or ran has had a swarm at level 1 or 2. It's always a garbage encounter. Whenever I run, I just remove them. It's similar to putting a ghost in the AP at low levels (which some also do), except you can use cantrips and staple spells like magic missile on them.

I'm of the opinion that nothing in alchemist fire allows the main damage to hurt swarms. If it did, it would have wording like a Kineticist's kinetic blast (protip: if your DM doesn't remove the swarms from Paizo APs, make sure at least one of you is a kinny) and it doesn't. Alchemist bombs are also not that hot, since only the splash damage hurts them, but at least it's better than just lobbing money at them in the form of alchemist fire.

Incidentally, in 3.5 you used to be able to damage swarms with energy damage riders on weapons like flaming or shocking, but that was removed in PF, so torches don't work anymore either.

[Unavenger]

Right, the ref half is another thing I didn't even think of. So you're up to, what, five or six burning hands spells? And that's assuming that the swarm doesn't get lucky and knock you out with a good roll, or ever hit more than one person, or run you out of CLWs, at any point during those six rounds?

From the sounds of it, the party at this point are not only second level (and therefore probably never had six burning hands available), but also under-equipped, have already been in at least one fight at this point, and are stuck in difficult terrain during this fight. Meanwhile, the swarm can zipline merrily through them, dealing enough damage to knock the sorc out on a lucky hit, and is immune to everyone else's attacks. Sure, a 2nd-level party who're fully prepped and well-rested and built to fight swarms will probably be totally fine! It's just... that's not what's happening in this AP. There are some alchemist's fires... somewhere on the island, which may or may not be able to hit the swarms for acceptable damage some of the time, which the party may not have found. But most of the time, they'll be down to their last few spell slots, with a few scratches on them from other encounters, and then they're faced with a 31-hit point swarm of death that deals about half their health in damage to anything it touches. Hardly trivial.

[Rynjin]

Every single Paizo AP I've ever played or ran has had a swarm at level 1 or 2. It's always a garbage encounter. Whenever I run, I just remove them. It's similar to putting a ghost in the AP at low levels (which some also do), except you can use cantrips and staple spells like magic missile on them.

I'm of the opinion that nothing in alchemist fire allows the main damage to hurt swarms. If it did, it would have wording like a Kineticist's kinetic blast (protip: if your DM doesn't remove the swarms from Paizo APs, make sure at least one of you is a kinny) and it doesn't. Alchemist bombs are also not that hot, since only the splash damage hurts them, but at least it's better than just lobbing money at them in the form of alchemist fire.

It's always weird to me that the people that hate swarms the most are the ones who are absolutely insistent that the low level options for dealing with swarms don't work as intended.

Like yeah, of course you hate swarms, you've houseruled away the way you're supposed to deal with them.

It's like saying skeletons are OP because you deleted all of the bludgeoning weapons from the game for no reason.

Also I resent that ghost remark. An 8th level Ghost Wizard who chucks Empowered Magic Missiles like they're going out of style is a perfectly valid challenge for a party of level 3 characters.

[Unavenger]

Like yeah, of course you hate swarms, you've houseruled away the way you're supposed to deal with them.

Claiming that someone who reads the RAW differently from you is homebrewing or houseruling doesn't make you right. It just makes you sound pretentious.

[Psyren]

Claiming that someone who reads the RAW differently from you is homebrewing or houseruling doesn't make you right. It just makes you sound pretentious.

He's right though. A big part of things like alchemist's fire being available at low levels is to deal with swarms. Hamstringing that and then complaining about it is... I'll be charitable and say "counterproductive."

[Unavenger]

He's right though. A big part of things like alchemist's fire being available at low levels is to deal with swarms. Hamstringing that and then complaining about it is... I'll be charitable and say "counterproductive."

If they wanted it to work, they shouldn't have made swarms immune to effects that target a single creature, then. The rules are pretty clear. :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Also if it did work, an encounter which you're supposed to defeat by basically throwing money at it is bad game design anyway.

[Kurald Galain]

Claiming that someone who reads the RAW differently from you is homebrewing or houseruling doesn't make you right. It just makes you sound pretentious.

Pot, meet kettle :smallamused:

[Rynjin]

If they wanted it to work, they shouldn't have made swarms immune to effects that target a single creature, then. The rules are pretty clear. :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Also if it did work, an encounter which you're supposed to defeat by basically throwing money at it is bad game design anyway.

Slash weapons aren't effects (in the same sense), they are weapons. You can absolutely target swarms with weapons (though many, but NOT ALL, are immune to weapon damage).

I think this line trips people up: " A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."

Anywho, "throwing money at problems" is...kind of the whole point of D&D? It's why gaining money = gaining power, a lot of spells have expensive material components, condition removal is usually expensive, etc.

[Psyren]

If they wanted it to work, they shouldn't have made swarms immune to effects that target a single creature, then. The rules are pretty clear. :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Also if it did work, an encounter which you're supposed to defeat by basically throwing money at it is bad game design anyway.

So by your reading they can only ever take one damage. Rendering the "50% extra damage" that swarms take from these weapons useless wording, since that becomes 1.5 and all fractions are rounded down.

Just tell your players that all swarms are a TPK until level 5+ and move on then, while the rest of our tables actually deal with them.

[denthor]

Does starting a fire with dry pine needles make enough smoke to drive them off?

[Tiktakkat]

So, you can't hurt em, you can't run away from them, you can't rest before you get rid of them - what are you supposed to do?

. . .

So, am I just uninformed? Is there an AoE Cantrip or something that every party is expected to have that I simply don't know? Or are the Paizo authors simply completely out of their minds?

A combination of ESP and consumables:

The ESP is to read the mind of the DM/author and know where the swarms are and to save your AoO effects for them, and the consumables are spending at least a third of your starting gold and half of acquired gold on alchemist's fire or suitable low-level scrolls.

Of course in an AP like Skull and Shackles where you lose your starting gold, get almost no acquired gold, and cannot really buy anything, you must rely on riding the railroad and making any required skill checks, and even then some bad die rolls will do you in.

And it is not merely Paizo authors who do this. The problem is in the rules themselves, assuming that just because an average party could have a reasonable chance of defeating a creature of that CR means that a specific party can have a reasonable chance of defeating that creature of that CR. Paizo aggravates that by making the loss of 1 PC per installment an expected default to "prove" their "old school" "dungeon cred", so encounters that require specific counters are considered a default.

It is further aggravated in most Paizo adventures by the fact that they rather explicitly reject the 4-hour work day model, and regularly feature adventures that expect 10 or so encounters between rest periods. Which requires the ESP I noted above to save your consumables, both items and memorized spells, for the "right" time in the adventure. Not a spontaneous caster and used your memorized burning hands on those three orcs? Oops! Not the author's fault!

In the end, the only thing you might be missing is accepting that published modules should be customized for individual table rather than expecting individual tables to customize themselves for published modules that have not been spoiled for them.

[Unavenger]

Slash weapons aren't effects (in the same sense), they are weapons. You can absolutely target swarms with weapons (though many, but NOT ALL, are immune to weapon damage).

I think this line trips people up: " A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells."

So, they're listed as a type of effect, but they're not a type of effect?

[Aotrs Commander]

Having run into swarms in Pathfinder Kingmaker I can attest that swarms a bovine excrement at level 1 - a diminutive swarm IS NOT a CR1 encounter, no matter what PF might have said, especially if it comes more or less right out of the gate when the PCs have virtually nothing other than their starting gear.



I noted that my party, consisting of no casters except for a bard (because I wanted to play a rogue/monk), could have handled the same number of Rat Swarms (at DOUBLE the CR) much more easily than they did five CR 1 spider swarms. Because they? Are not IMMUNE to weapon damage.



No monster at CR 1 should have "immune to weapon damage." That is just poor games design; PCs at level one have frack all resources to deal with a threat that ONLY has a very small number of specific encounters and it is INCREDIBLY easy to have a party that just DOESN'T have those counters available.

The blame lies on both 3.5 in the frist place but just as much with PF, for not only copy-pasting it, but also NOT, as far as I can find, copy-pasting the "vulnerabilities of swarms" section that was listed in the swarm section of MM in 3.5 - a stupid place to put, frankly, it should have been in Swarm subtype; as far as I am aware, a lit torch does NOT do D3 damage to a swarm in PF, nor flaming weapons (of which 1st level PCs have loads, of course...), not a lit-lantern-as-grenade - because PF does not appear to have put that bit in their rules anywhere. (It isn't in PF:Kingmaker, at any rate.) The shoddily-written rules (3.5's fault, plus PF for not explictly clarifying) on targeting individual creatures also make it highly ambiguous whether stuff like rays are ABLE to attack swarms (the RAW leans towards "you can't,") - and PF actually REDUCED the CR of some of the swarms.

Diminutive swarms are FAR too swingy an encounter to be thrown at first level PCs. If the PCs happen not to have the very few number of counters, it's a TPK waiting to happen. (Especially as at first level, the PCs might not even be able to have AFFORDED any alchemist's fire or acid flasks yet.)

So, what ways can a first level party fight a swarm in PF? 1 point of damage per torch hit (on AC 17 for a spider swarm), verses D6 automatic and a Fort save, Burning Hands (if you're lucky enough to have it loaded and there aren't more than, like, one, because without explict foreknowledge, I have never seen a 1st level wizard prepare Burning Hands more than once, if at ALL when Mage Armour, Magic Missile and Colour Spray are better options for yoyur maybe three spell slots), a handful of bombs IF one of the Pathfinder PCs has to be an alchemist. Cantrips including rays are worthless unless you have a generous DM (like PF:KM) who allows rays and such to work on swarms, even though they probably shouldn't, because they are both spells that target individual creatures AND treated as weapons).

In PF:KM, I was even aware they were coming, but not for the fact they threw in FIVE. And they did not give you, nor wwere clear enough to say "you better buy a load more," (if I'd been DMing, it would have been a point I'd have held my hands up in the out-of-character things and said "DM suggests you buy more.")



Diminutive swarms ought to be AT LEAST +1 CR over what PF gave them, at least until they hit the CR 3 level and the PCs maybe start to have available the resources (in spells or in cash for alchemical items) to be reasonably able to counter them.



Having said THAT, there were some swarms in Shackled City that gave my about 6-7-ish level PCs some hassle, because they were not explictly prepared to handle swarms - I think in the end, they didn't even kill them all, just managed to use the terrain to lure them in and shut them away. (Good encounter design, allowing an environmental method, unlike just slinging them into a dungeon like a regular encounter.)

[Rynjin]

Of course in an AP like Skull and Shackles where you lose your starting gold, get almost no acquired gold, and cannot really buy anything, you must rely on riding the railroad and making any required skill checks, and even then some bad die rolls will do you in.

The quartermaster stocks 18 vials of alchemist's fire, and the PCs are awarded somewhere on the order of 200-ish gold (apiece) right before the adventure. A minimum of 150 apiece, plus another 200 or so to split among themselves.


And it is not merely Paizo authors who do this. The problem is in the rules themselves, assuming that just because an average party could have a reasonable chance of defeating a creature of that CR means that a specific party can have a reasonable chance of defeating that creature of that CR. Paizo aggravates that by making the loss of 1 PC per installment an expected default to "prove" their "old school" "dungeon cred", so encounters that require specific counters are considered a default.

It is further aggravated in most Paizo adventures by the fact that they rather explicitly reject the 4-hour work day model, and regularly feature adventures that expect 10 or so encounters between rest periods. Which requires the ESP I noted above to save your consumables, both items and memorized spells, for the "right" time in the adventure. Not a spontaneous caster and used your memorized burning hands on those three orcs? Oops! Not the author's fault!

In the end, the only thing you might be missing is accepting that published modules should be customized for individual table rather than expecting individual tables to customize themselves for published modules that have not been spoiled for them.

These things are a part of the experience. I dunno if I've ever played at a table that uses an expected encounters per day of 4 as the table's baseline. It's not "ESP" it's erring on the side of caution, something you learn as you gain experience in the game.

Sometimes bad luck happens, sometimes you under prepare, and sometimes **** just goes horribly wrong through no fault of your own. These things happen, it's part of the game.

Of the 245 posts in the Obituary thread, only two mention characters dying from these swarms. A relatively small sample size to be sure, but I think it hints at it being far less dangerous than people seem to believe in practice.


So, they're listed as a type of effect, but they're not a type of effect?

They are an effect in that everything is an effect, but not an "effect" in the sense meant (of some kind of special ability), because they are weapons. Swarms are implicitly allowed to be targeted by weapons, else their relative resistant and immunity to it is meaningless text.

Are we going to discuss the difference between "level" and "level" now?

[Efrate]

Or the swarms surprise you cannot hear. I know of at least one ap that you open a door and a swarm spills out which explicitly is a gotcha moment. You are level 1 and its a cr 3 swarm iirc.
Its frequently an issue.

[Unavenger]

They are an effect in that everything is an effect, but not an "effect" in the sense meant (of some kind of special ability), because they are weapons. Swarms are implicitly allowed to be targeted by weapons, else their relative resistant and immunity to it is meaningless text.

Are we going to discuss the difference between "level" and "level" now?

They're called an effect in the line about 50% extra damage ("Spells or effects[...] such as splash Weapons and many Evocation Spells"), so arguing that they're not an effect in the line in the same paragraph that talks about immunity ("any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures") seems very disingenuous. If Paizo wanted them to count for one purpose but not another, they shouldn't have used the same word, in the same paragraph, to mean two very different things.

EDIT:


Of the 245 posts in the Obituary thread, only two mention characters dying from these swarms. A relatively small sample size to be sure, but I think it hints at it being far less dangerous than people seem to believe in practice.

I doubt many people were killed by drowned or That Damn Crab either, not because they're not dangerous, but because DMs know how dangerous they are and tend not to use them.

[Rynjin]

Or the swarms surprise you cannot hear. I know of at least one ap that you open a door and a swarm spills out which explicitly is a gotcha moment. You are level 1 and its a cr 3 swarm iirc.
Its frequently an issue.

Carrion Crown does this with a rat swarm, but Carrion Crown is specifically designed to be a PC-killer.


They're called an effect in the line about 50% extra damage ("Spells or effects[...] such as splash Weapons and many Evocation Spells"), so arguing that they're not an effect in the line in the same paragraph that talks about immunity ("any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures") seems very disingenuous. If Paizo wanted them to count for one purpose but not another, they shouldn't have used the same word, in the same paragraph, to mean two very different things.


Shouldn't, sure. Did, unfortunately. RAI: clear, so what's the use of arguing about wonky RAW?





I doubt many people were killed by drowned or That Damn Crab either, not because they're not dangerous, but because DMs know how dangerous they are and tend not to use them.


People typically run APs as written or make them HARDER (there was a 3rd death by botflies mentioned in the thread, which I discounted because it involved the GM setting 8 of the ****ing things on the party), not easier. They can't do either if they're running them for PFS credits.

[TIPOT]

I see where you're coming from. You seem to be talking about a RAW dysfunction like drowning to heal. There's a discussion about it here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t18o?Does-Alchemist-Fire-damage-a-swarm and here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ld31?Alchemist-fire-thrown-to-a-a-swarm-of-bats .

It's still pretty silly, makes some things the rules say pointless and so clearly isn't as intended, and I've never seen it played that way.

It's still worst case scenario. If half the party has halfway decent class features and half the party sits on their butts, the fight is easy. 3d6 damage a round (2d6 if CLW'd before the target's turn) to an entire level 2 party just isn't a lot. If the party has a halfway decent answer at all, the fight is over.

Errr... 2d6 damage is easily enough to down a lot of level 2 characters, especially casters who will only have at most like 10-16 health. That's like a chance of them going down in one round. If it get's the drop on a party by like ambush a character is probably going to die due to 2 rounds of swarm damage.

Swarms are not invincible, but that particular swarm seems pretty brutal for a CR2.

[Firechanter]

4 rounds to kill. Deals 28 damage in the meantime plus effects. Maybe goes into a 5th round if he focuses his attacks and chases the wounded PC that backs off, though I don't think a mindless creature would. Trivial encounter. Failing a save on the disease is a little annoying long term though. Some minor dex and con damage in a couple days. Some heal checks can help, as does resting normally to restore party of the damage.

Apparently you aren't even reading what I wrote.
It's 4 rounds in the absolute best of circumstances, IF your spellcaster still HAS four (!!!) castings of Burning Hands available at this time of day (as I said, it's more like the 3rd or 4th encounter), and 28dmg+Bleed is way, WAY MORE than the PCs even HAVE in HP when they are fresh - which, again, they aren't. And the AP affords NO WAY of acquiring even oil beforehand, let alone alchemist fires.
Oh and also, the PCs can't take off a few days to recover after that because they're on a timer, and the main dungeon of that island is still ahead of them.
It's much more likely that your caster will be down to a single spell slot or maybe two, and then you're out of luck.

I've seen parties of 6 4th-level PCs struggle with a couple of bat swarms, having nothing better at hand than Alc fires to deal with them, but they managed. That 2nd-level encounter there is a really sick joke, and if you call that trivial, I'm not buying a single word of it.

--

Yes, Paizo APs are notorious for bringing up swarms. That's exactly why I want to know how they expect you to deal with them. In my latest (well, current) game, I saved up my first loot and then ordered a Swarmbane Clasp as soon as possible. But it's 3000GP so even if you have a crafter in the party you can't get it before level 3.

[Unavenger]

If it get's the drop on a party by like ambush

...Incidentally, can anyone who has the stats in front of them tell me its stealth score? 'Cause I feel like a flying, buzzing horde of mosquitoes really shouldn't be that sneaky, but...

[Rynjin]

Errr... 3d6 damage is easily enough to down a lot of level 2 characters, especially casters who will only have at most like 10-16 health. That's like a 50/50 chance of them going down in one round. If it get's the drop on a party by like ambush a character is probably going to die.

Swarms are not invincible, but that particular swarm seems pretty brutal for a CR2.

It's CR 3. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/mosquito-swarm/)

With one exception they are also utterly avoidable during the day, I don't know it anyone has mentioned this yet. There's a 50% chance of one showing up in the swamp at night, and only come out if you specifically screw with the infested heads clearly buzzing with botflies (no Nature or Survival check required). Only the one on Arron Ivy is unavoidable.


...Incidentally, can anyone who has the stats in front of them tell me its stealth score? 'Cause I feel like a flying, buzzing horde of mosquitoes really shouldn't be that sneaky, but...

+1 Untrained. Also mindless, do not ambush.

[Hellpyre]

If they wanted it to work, they shouldn't have made swarms immune to effects that target a single creature, then. The rules are pretty clear. :smallannoyed:


The thing is, you seem to be misinterpreting exactly how Alchemist Fire works. The damage on the "main target" isn't from being hit with a bottle, it's from getting the lion's share of the self-immolating payload. And the fact that there are rules for attacking a point in space instead of a creature doean't mean that you need to use that against a swarm - it is a valid target for a touch attack, and Alchemist's Fire doesn't target a specific number of creatures (like, say, disintegrate, magic missle, or dominate monster). It doesn't finish with the outside of your skin and stop.

[Kraynic]

Several people have brought up damage from torches. I can find rules from 3.5 for torch damage to swarms, but have been unable to find that in Pathfinder. Does someone have a book/page or link to a pathfinder rule for that?

[Unavenger]

The thing is, you seem to be misinterpreting exactly how Alchemist Fire works. The damage on the "main target" isn't from being hit with a bottle, it's from getting the lion's share of the self-immolating payload.
Of course it's not from getting hit with a bottle. It's from the bottle breaking against your body and showering you with "The lion's share of the self-immolating payload."

Suppose you throw the alchemist's fire when the swarm is actually 20 feet above you, for sake of argument. You and others are expecting me to believe that you throw the alchemist's fire, it hits the mosquitoes, explodes in midair from the impact, and doesn't hit you. I'm saying that if you throw a molotov 20 feet into the air into a cloud of mosquitoes, you're going to hit yourself in the face with it.


And the fact that there are rules for attacking a point in space instead of a creature doean't mean that you need to use that against a swarm - it is a valid target for a touch attack, and Alchemist's Fire doesn't target a specific number of creatures (like, say, disintegrate, magic missle, or dominate monster). It doesn't finish with the outside of your skin and stop.

*Sigh*

"A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don’t take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue’s sneak attack class feature).

You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can’t target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you’re aiming at the creature.

If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares."

It does have a specified number of targets. This number is one. A target, the target, target a grid intersection, aiming at the creature, aiming at a creature or grid intersection: there is a specific number of targets, and as if to prove it, the Throw Splash Weapon section makes ten references to a single target and two references to aiming at a specific entity. Not only does it have a specified number of targets, you can barely miss the fact that it does. Insult to injury, alchemist's fire itself refers to a singular target twice more.

"It doesn't have a specified number of targets!" smacks of desperation.

[Rynjin]

Of course it's not from getting hit with a bottle. It's from the bottle breaking against your body and showering you with "The lion's share of the self-immolating payload."

Suppose you throw the alchemist's fire when the swarm is actually 20 feet above you, for sake of argument. You and others are expecting me to believe that you throw the alchemist's fire, it hits the mosquitoes, explodes in midair from the impact, and doesn't hit you. I'm saying that if you throw a molotov 20 feet into the air into a cloud of mosquitoes, you're going to hit yourself in the face with it.

And if you wiggle your fingers just right and throw some bat **** in the air it's not going to create a superheated ball of fire that instantaneously melts gold. Fantasy game is fantastical, more at 11.

Thinking like this is what leads to weapon cords being nerfed because Jason Buhlman is uncoordinated.

Games aren't real life.

[Unavenger]

And if you wiggle your fingers just right and throw some bat **** in the air it's not going to create a superheated ball of fire that instantaneously melts gold. Fantasy game is fantastical, more at 11.

Thinking like this is what leads to weapon cords being nerfed because Jason Buhlman is uncoordinated.

Games aren't real life.

I mean, of course the game's handling of magic is unrealistic. But its handling of bombs doesn't have to be. And isn't because they have a single target so swarms are immune to the direct hit damage.

RACSD, you're wrong. RAW, you're wrong. RAI, no-one knows. Can we move on?

[Rynjin]

I mean, of course the game's handling of magic is unrealistic. But its handling of bombs doesn't have to be. And isn't because they have a single target so swarms are immune to the direct hit damage.

RACSD, you're wrong. RAW, you're wrong. RAI, no-one knows. Can we move on?

"RACSD" as far as I can tell is a thing you have made up. I have never heard the term before. I'm assuming it means "Rules as common sense dictates", which is a silly, silly way to judge game mechanics. Common sense dictates a lot of things work opposite of how both RAW and RAI intended them to be used. The rules on Perception are a good example (where due to range penalties, the sun is invisible per RAW).

RAW, I am willing to admit is ambiguous.

RAI is clearly on my side. There is literally no reason to print that line about splash weapons getting 1.5x effectiveness if you can't target swarms with them. Maximum possible damage with a CRB splash weapon is...1 damage, and you can't deal a half point of damage. There can be no other way that line was intended to be read, anybody claiming the RAI is unclear is being willfully obtuse. It is clear in the text, it is clear in the adventure design (which always provides Alchemist's Fire or Acid before swarms are encountered), and it is clear in Iconic design (where every non-caster is kitted out with Fire or Acid). Splash weapons are how you deal with swarms. We can't "move on" because that is the answer to the question the thread has posed, but some people want to make it more complicated than it needs to be for some reason.

[Tiktakkat]

The quartermaster stocks 18 vials of alchemist's fire, and the PCs are awarded somewhere on the order of 200-ish gold (apiece) right before the adventure. A minimum of 150 apiece, plus another 200 or so to split among themselves.

IF, you know to ask the quartermaster about buying alchemist's fire;
IF, you spend what little loot you gain on alchemist's fire, which is such a great choice on ships, which you have been stuck on so far;
IF, you win the battle against 6 NPC grunts fast enough;
IF, you warn the captain;
IF, you kill 12 NPC grunts and do not allow any to escape;
IF, you capture or kill an NPC boss;
IF, you do not gratuitously off any of your pirate "allies" (but not really because they actually hate you)

So IF you do all of that, you get 250 gp each plus 500 gp to split.
Otherwise just 75 gp each minus 300 gp if you "accidentally" manage to get 2 support NPCs you asked for killed in all the confusion, for a grand total of . . . hmm, well, zero. Maybe 150 gp to split if you actually kill the grunts in the first expected battle.
And you have all of 2 whole chances to "remember" to buy the alchemist's fire before no chance to backtrack, one of which you get "hinted" that you should just spend partying with the rest of the crew.

As it happens, I just finished running this AP. Despite being highly experienced, particularly with Paizo shenanigans, the players did not leap to stock up on the alchemist's fire. They were less-than-impressed at the prospect of disease bearing, auto-damage dealing, swarms, though they did survive them.

[Hellpyre]

I mean, of course the game's handling of magic is unrealistic. But its handling of bombs doesn't have to be. And isn't because they have a single target so swarms are immune to the direct hit damage.

RACSD, you're wrong. RAW, you're wrong. RAI, no-one knows. Can we move on?

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures...A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

Splash weapons have an indeterminate number of creatures they can affect, and so bypass the first part. The primary target takes additional damage, but it is by no means the only target. There's no reason to apply the swarm trait immunity in thus situatiin, and an explicit reason not to. Unless you'd like to argue that you can't swing a torch at a swarm, since you'd need it to be a single target.

[Rynjin]

IF, you know to ask the quartermaster about buying alchemist's fire;
IF, you spend what little loot you gain on alchemist's fire, which is such a great choice on ships, which you have been stuck on so far;

PCs should know the quartermaster stocks it, because every single NPC on the ship has at least one vial on them, and the PCs have potentially been pelted with already.


IF, you win the battle against 6 NPC grunts fast enough;
IF, you warn the captain;
IF, you kill 12 NPC grunts and do not allow any to escape;
IF, you capture or kill an NPC boss;
IF, you do not gratuitously off any of your pirate "allies" (but not really because they actually hate you)

I actually only accounted for 4 NPC grunts in that calculation. You get 25 apiece, 150 for completing the encounter (yes "if" you warn Harrigan), and the however much I forget for killing the officer, who will kill you if you don't, so I'm not sure why we're talking about a hypothetical TPK scenario. That really only leaves "if you don't cold blooded murder someone and get caught doing it", which...don't do that?


So IF you do all of that, you get 250 gp each plus 500 gp to split.
Otherwise just 75 gp each minus 300 gp if you "accidentally" manage to get 2 support NPCs you asked for killed in all the confusion, for a grand total of . . . hmm, well, zero. Maybe 150 gp to split if you actually kill the grunts in the first expected battle.
And you have all of 2 whole chances to "remember" to buy the alchemist's fire before no chance to backtrack, one of which you get "hinted" that you should just spend partying with the rest of the crew.

Why would you "accidentally" kill those NPCs though? Most of the crew is non-hostile and the named characters are explicitly not available.


As it happens, I just finished running this AP. Despite being highly experienced, particularly with Paizo shenanigans, the players did not leap to stock up on the alchemist's fire. They were less-than-impressed at the prospect of disease bearing, auto-damage dealing, swarms, though they did survive them.

I haven't finished book 6 yet (I'm running in PbP), but I'm not exactly talking out of my ass here. The PCs have multiple opportunities to buy or acquire (one of the randomized options for thievery is Alchemist's Fire as well) it.

The thievery bit is how my Alchemist ended up carrying the show (alongside the Magus' Burning Hands); he didn't craft Alchemist's Fire and he didn't use his Bombs, he just found a bunch of vials while raiding the store room.

[Firechanter]

Alright, I see that most people here are just as frustrated with swarms as I am. They have many ludicrous qualities, but one that I'd like to single out - aside Immunity to Weapon Damage - is the Speed the Paizo authors attest them. For instance, IRL a mosquito's flying top speed is 2-3km/h. In D&D terms that corresponds to a speed of 15ft if we assume they cannot take double move actions or "run". NOT FORTY!

-- BTW that is another thing I've been wondering: _can_ Swarms take double move actions? Or do they have only one Move Action and the rest is automatic? The rules don't seem to say. --

FWIW, in basically all other Paizo AP's I've learned to buy a butterfly net and, possibly, a Swarmsuit and insect repellent as early as possible. (Although my idea of fantasy adventuring isn't exactly to move about in a beekeeper garment.) In S&S that was simply not on the cards. And upon re-reading the description of Butterfly Net, I'm not entirely sure that it can actually be used to capture swarms with it, but the important thing here is that my DM bought it. ;)

In Kingmaker, the lowest levels get you spider and centipede swarms, and a bit later also bat swarms. As I said, I first operated with a butterfly net, then bought a Swarmbane Clasp asap. The latter is really a godsend, finally something that takes the *sting* out of these ridiculous encounters.

[Tiktakkat]

PCs should know the quartermaster stocks it, because every single NPC on the ship has at least one vial on them, and the PCs have potentially been pelted with already.

2 out of 8 unique NPCs with actual stat blocks on the ship have them. (Most of the officers are unstated.)
There are no encounters where the PCs are attacked by alchemist's fire.
Oh, and there are only 6 flasks of alchemist's fire for sale.
And there is a 5% chance, for each of 1d3 potential items, that any pirate locker the PCs attempt to steal from has a flask.


I actually only accounted for 4 NPC grunts in that calculation. You get 25 apiece, 150 for completing the encounter (yes "if" you warn Harrigan), and the however much I forget for killing the officer, who will kill you if you don't, so I'm not sure why we're talking about a hypothetical TPK scenario. That really only leaves "if you don't cold blooded murder someone and get caught doing it", which...don't do that?

You counted wrong.
There are 6 NPC grunts who "must" be killed to secure the aft deck on the ship attacked. The battle is given 16 rounds to take its course. Barring either a TPK or the DM handwaving the NPCs fleeing the ship with the other two waves, those 6 really, kinda, sorta, haveta, die or surrender.
All of the others, including the officer, are explicitly attempting to escape, and so the PCs face zero danger from not attempting to stop them. (The total of those is either 5 (text) or 6 (statblocks). Apparently a minor typo.)
As for not going murderhobo on people, who are rather obviously, and directly in DM text, setting up to go murderhobo on you, combined with an AP whose overall theme is "be a pirate", and features explicit bonuses for making enemies, or even subordinates, walk the plank or equivalent thereof, cold blooded murder is pretty much the default.


Why would you "accidentally" kill those NPCs though? Most of the crew is non-hostile and the named characters are explicitly not available.

There are 14 generic NPC pirates.
7 of them have a starting attitude of Hostile. (Though 1 gets red-shirted in the fourth "encounter" (programmed event).)
2 more are unfriendly, along with 2 of the named NPCs who the PCs are expected to befriend.
4 of the generic pirates tried to get the PCs in trouble.
2 of the generic pirates tried to murder one of the PCs.

I "notified" my players that Charisma, Charisma-based skills, and ship task skills, were "required" for the first book, so my group actually had every last one of them as Helpful by the time of the attack, and I had to "cheat" the murderers.
Other groups who might not max out Charisma, Diplomacy, and a few other skills? They most likely barely have half the available generic pirates on their side, though hopefully they have all of the unique NPCs helping them.


I haven't finished book 6 yet (I'm running in PbP), but I'm not exactly talking out of my ass here. The PCs have multiple opportunities to buy or acquire (one of the randomized options for thievery is Alchemist's Fire as well) it.

The thievery bit is how my Alchemist ended up carrying the show (alongside the Magus' Burning Hands); he didn't craft Alchemist's Fire and he didn't use his Bombs, he just found a bunch of vials while raiding the store room.

I am looking at the adventure and counting off all those numbers, so you are clearly forgetting quite a bit, or the DM changed quite a bit. (Maybe he knew there was a swarm coming up and made sure you had the resources to defeat it.)
As for raiding the store room, if you steal from the ship's armory, where 36 vials are available, the text explicitly catches any "obvious" theft, which is the most likely outcome for 1st level characters.

Overall is just not that casually easy to get alchemist's fire during the adventure.

[Rynjin]

I didn't change much, but I did start running it in 2013, so maybe my memory slipped a bit in regards to NPC friendliness (I could have sworn it was only Plugg and the 3 or 4 that attack the PCs near the start that are hostile).

I did encourage the PCs to make friends though, and allowed it for quite a few NPCs over the course of the game. The party actually has the Rahadoumi Officer (later christened Riza), Arron Ivy, and Gortus Svard as part of the crew as helpful NPCs in my game.

[Psyren]

I think the smoke thing should work on them. As with any mindless creature, how the GM runs them is going to play a big role in how dangerous they are, and making them any sort of crafty or tactical should come with a CR boost.

[Kurald Galain]

I get the impression that some people are expecting the PCs to use zero tactics, and all stand together inside the swarm and whale at it until it dies.

Yeah if you act like that, expect a TPK... but I would expect even novice players to play smarter than that.



Alright, I see that most people here are just as frustrated with swarms as I am.
If you do a headcount of the thread, obviously not :smallamused:

[Madsamurai]

One of the issues with alchemist fire is that even if you assume that the disfunction is not intended (which I buy) swarms all have insane touch ACs. The mosquito swarm has a 15, which is on the low side, but it has 31 HP. So let's math this out:

You have a fighter, rogue, wizard and cleric with infinite alchemist fire and perfect positioning, such that the swarm is only ever attaching one PC and the rest are always in the first range increment. We assume the swarm always attacks the same PC since the blood draws the mosquitoes, and that PC is always the fighter.

Stats are:
Fighter +4 fort, +3 ranged to hit. 25 HP
Rogue +5 to hit,
Wizard +3 to hit
Cleric +2 to hit

Alchemists fire deals 4.5 damage on a hit and 1 on a miss.

Fighter attacks 55% of the time because he is otherwise nauseated. Average damage is:
Fighter 0.55 * (0.45 * 4.5 + 0.55* 1) = 1.4
Rogue 0.55 * 4.5 + 0.45 * 1 = 2.9
Wizard 0.45 *4.5 + 0.55* 1 = 2.6
Cleric 0.40 * 4.5 + 0.60 *1 = 2.4

This gives a total average damage of 9.3 so kills the bugs in 3.4 (read 4) rounds. Assuming that swarms can't catch fire. Double that if you are using oil since it's effective half the time.

Meanwhile, the poor fighter is taking 2d6 + 1d6 bleed each turn, for 10.5 damage a turn. This downs him in 3 turns and brings him to negative constitution and thus extra dead in 4 turns. I mean, that's technically 1/4th the parties resources, so it's fine... Maybe the cleric throws some channels or heals to negate some bleed with initiative shenanigans.

Finally, to accomplish this the party has spent something like 13 alchemists fires for a total cost of 260 gp. This compares favorably to the 800 gp a CR 3 encounter grants.

So I guess that's about right. There is not a huge amount of room for error or bad luck but it mostly works. Better hope the characters are carrying like 50 alchemists fire in case they fight more than one swarm ever. Remember those things weigh one pound each :D

Swarms are still bad game design.

[Kris Moonhand]

I came here to basically say exactly what Madsamurai said, in response to the people saying "oh, well if you houserule (read: use rules as written) then of course swarms suck!" Even if you assume that alchemist fire working on swarms is intended, they're still deadly for low-level characters.

By the way, Madsamurai, I think you forgot to factor in that the Rogue and Cleric (and possibly the Wizard, depending on if they're Human and specced into ray combat) are likely not gonna have Precise Shot, and so take a -4 when attacking the swarm that is chomping on the Fighter, since the two are engaged in melee. And also, the Fighter is going to be taking the splash from the fire since the swarm fills a 10x10 area, so there's no way to hit it directly and also miss the Fighter.

[Crake]

4 damage per round vs the 31-hp swarm is not 2-3 rounds tops. It's 8 rounds. And at level 2, you only have enough HP to survive a couple of hits from that thing if you're tough or lucky.

I think the problem here isn't swarms, but rather which swarm you're using. A 31 hp anything is a tough fight for level 1 characters. Swarms aren't boss or elite encounters, so maybe just don't use a CR3 swarm against level 1 characters, and use, oh, I dunno, a CR1 swarm?

[Psyren]

Couple of things:

1) If you really need a clear source for RAI on splash weapons and torches vs. swarms, check the Pathfinder Society Field Guide or the Pathfinder Strategy Guide - both sources cite alchemical splash weapons as being highly effective against swarms, so that is clearly what the designers were going for.

2) Of course they're "deadly" - anything that can kill you on its own is "deadly." But adventurers deal with deadly things all the time, and lots of them aren't even mindless.

If you really want to deal with swarms and have no alchemical items handy, you have a much easier solution - start a fire and get some smoke going. If you want some RAW for this, here's two rules to help you:


Smoke

A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.


A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.

The beauty of the first rule is that "heavy smoke" is determined from the perspective of the creature(s) breathing it in - in other words, what is "heavy" for a swarm of bugs may be completely negligible for the humanoid PCs, just like heavy smoke for a puppy or child wouldn't mean much to a giant.

But the moment you get the smoke going, the swarm shouldn't stick around in the first place. Again, they're mindless - the GM should be playing them as such, and that means making them flee from even small fires and smoke, regardless of how tasty the adventurers behind it might be.

In short: even if the swarm sticks around, there's a good chance (which gets better each round) that it won't be able to take actions at all, and eventually will disperse - for hours, more than enough time for the party to be on their way even if they lack the means to kill it.

[Madsamurai]

2) Of course they're "deadly" - anything that can kill you on its own is "deadly." But adventurers deal with deadly things all the time, and lots of them aren't even mindless.


Point is they are deadlier then a CR 3 fight should be. Take a black bear (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bear/black-bear). Our fighter has 18 ish regular ac and 25 HP. That means the beast is dealing an average of 6.6 a round and downs the fighter in 4 rounds. Meanwhile the fighter flanks with the rogue and the wizard and cleric go make out in the bushes. Math is

Fighter +7, 1d10+9 = 8 damage
Rogue +7, 1d4 + 1d6 +1 = 4 damage

So they kill the bear in 3 round. Having spent less money and risked less death than against freaking mosquitoes... Also, half the party was asleep. I challenge you to find a non-swarm at CR 3 that is as deadly as the mosquito swarm.

Plus, most fights can be solved in many different ways using many different builds. Low level swarms can be solved only one way and require one very specific kind of character; i.e. the prepared adventurer. What if we are playing some farm boys out protecting their village? Where do we even get 13+ alchemists fire? Why would we have it?




But the moment you get the smoke going, the swarm shouldn't stick around in the first place. Again, they're mindless - the GM should be playing them as such, and that means making them flee from even small fires and smoke, regardless of how tasty the adventurers behind it might be.

In short: even if the swarm sticks around, there's a good chance (which gets better each round) that it won't be able to take actions at all, and eventually will disperse - for hours, more than enough time for the party to be on their way even if they lack the means to kill it.

Oh I'll just start a big fire and wait while the swarm fails the save with its +5 fortitude...

Plus there are no rules for how much smoke a fire makes, but when I went camping standing in the smoke from a camp fire hardly protected me from non-cr-3 mosquitos. This is because the smoke does not cover my whole body, much less a party of 4. I suppose you will need to carry 50 lbs of lumber everywhere to start a large fire... Oh and hope it's windy enough so that the smoke does not rise straight up.



By the way, Madsamurai, I think you forgot to factor in that the Rogue and Cleric (and possibly the Wizard, depending on if they're Human and specced into ray combat) are likely not gonna have Precise Shot, and so take a -4 when attacking the swarm that is chomping on the Fighter, since the two are engaged in melee. And also, the Fighter is going to be taking the splash from the fire since the swarm fills a 10x10 area, so there's no way to hit it directly and also miss the Fighter.

As long as the swarm is alone, the party just delays until the fighter moves.

This does make me realize that two swarms are only CR 5, which a party of level 2s should be able to beat. I'll leave the math as an exercise for the reader, but it's pretty clear to me that nothing short of a party of blaster casters or kineticists had a chance there.

[zlefin]

Is there anything in the rules which cover the effect of splashing water on a swarm? (like at least a gallon say, or however much they want for a minimum to have some effect).

Is there a rule for some sort of basic trying to swat/wipe insects off of you? especially if you have a decent strip of cloth to use or somesuch?

since every civilization has had to deal with insects; it seems like there should be more mundane anti-insect stuff.

[ericgrau]

Is there anything in the rules which cover the effect of splashing water on a swarm? (like at least a gallon say, or however much they want for a minimum to have some effect).

Is there a rule for some sort of basic trying to swat/wipe insects off of you? especially if you have a decent strip of cloth to use or somesuch?

since every civilization has had to deal with insects; it seems like there should be more mundane anti-insect stuff.

I think it's presumed that they are giant insects so water in normal quantities probably would not apply.

AFAIK the best measures against mosquitos are nets, screens or other barriers, eliminating standing water and DEET. DEET is modern and eliminating standing water is semi modern, so my best guess is that they used barriers. And for giant mosquitos they probably hire some adventurers or the local guard so we're back at square one.


Is there a rule for some sort of basic trying to swat/wipe insects off of you? especially if you have a decent strip of cloth to use or somesuch?
It's called the nauseated condition, where you fail your save and waste your standard action doing that. So you can only move. Like weapon attacks it may technically kill a couple but has no measurable impact on the swarm and no game rules impact on them.

[Firechanter]

I challenge you to find a non-swarm at CR 3 that is as deadly as the mosquito swarm.

That Damn Crab maybe? ^^
Ok it's older than PF, but was written by a PF author. Maybe even one and the same, who knows.

Shadow? CR3, incorporeal, so at levels 1-2 it's probably even worse than Swarms because you can hurt it _only_ with magic, and it ignores HP and damages Str, and when the Str is 0 you are immediately dead, no negatives, and even if you survive it can't be healed magically at this level (only over time).

[Psyren]

Oh I'll just start a big fire and wait while the swarm fails the save with its +5 fortitude...

That's how you'd deal with thousands of bugs without magic or alchemy in the real world, yes.

And no, you're not "waiting" very long. If your GM is playing the swarm properly, i.e. like the mindless insects it consists of, it should be leaving the area pretty much immediately. The nonlethal/dispersion rules are only there to let the GM know what happens if it can't, e.g. it's in an enclosed space. Even if you do have to wait it out, chances are you won't be waiting longer than a minute, by which point the swarm will need a natural 20 to succeed.



Plus there are no rules for how much smoke a fire makes, but when I went camping standing in the smoke from a camp fire hardly protected me from non-cr-3 mosquitos. This is because the smoke does not cover my whole body, much less a party of 4. I suppose you will need to carry 50 lbs of lumber everywhere to start a large fire... Oh and hope it's windy enough so that the smoke does not rise straight up.

I'm guessing you don't spend as much time outdoors as the average D&D adventurer either, so I'm not seeing why your personal anecdote is relevant. But I will say that if your party truly doesn't have any outdoorsy members who can set a fire or direct smoke, chances are you've got at least one caster who can deal with the swarm another way instead.

More importantly though, stopping every single mosquito is not the point. You don't need to kill or disable every bug in a swarm in order for it to stop being a swarm. Some will probably still be up and flying around, sure, but the encounter will still be won.



Plus, most fights can be solved in many different ways using many different builds. Low level swarms can be solved only one way and require one very specific kind of character; i.e. the prepared adventurer. What if we are playing some farm boys out protecting their village? Where do we even get 13+ alchemists fire? Why would we have it?

You don't have fire as an adventurer? Last time I checked, flint/steel/torches are in every class' starting kit.

Alchemist's Fire are for if you want to get rid of it more quickly - the area damage is much higher, and those can start fires too.


Point is they are deadlier then a CR 3 fight should be.

I'm not denying that they're difficult ("under-CRed" is the first comment I made in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?603372-How-are-Lowlevel-PCs-expected-to-fight-Swarms&p=24276498&viewfull=1#post24276498), remember?) 3.5 hasn't been particularly precise at pegging swarm CRs either. That doesn't make them impossible or even that far off, provided again the GM is playing them properly. They are more hazard than creature. If your GM has them tactically bulldozing through smoke to get to the party, or flying at full speed to the PCs even when there are animals or corpses in the area, the CR and therefore rewards should be raised appropriately.

[Madsamurai]

That Damn Crab maybe? ^^
Ok it's older than PF, but was written by a PF author. Maybe even one and the same, who knows.

Shadow? CR3, incorporeal, so at levels 1-2 it's probably even worse than Swarms because you can hurt it _only_ with magic, and it ignores HP and damages Str, and when the Str is 0 you are immediately dead, no negatives, and even if you survive it can't be healed magically at this level (only over time).

I don't get the crab reference but I'll conceed shadows :) I think that sort of makes my point though, cause shadows are the other monster people complain about being unfair at level 2.



And no, you're not "waiting" very long. If your GM is playing the swarm properly, i.e. like the mindless insects it consists of, it should be leaving the area pretty much immediately. The nonlethal/dispersion rules are only there to let the GM know what happens if it can't, e.g. it's in an enclosed space. Even if you do have to wait it out, chances are you won't be waiting longer than a minute, by which point the swarm will need a natural 20 to succeed.

More importantly though, stopping every single mosquito is not the point. You don't need to kill or disable every bug in a swarm in order for it to stop being a swarm. Some will probably still be up and flying around, sure, but the encounter will still be won.



You don't have fire as an adventurer? Last time I checked, flint/steel/torches are in every class' starting kit.


The swarm takes the fighter to negative con in 4 rounds. Any plan that takes longer then that auto fails. I don't know how you get a smoky fire going in 24 seconds. My point about my experience was that you need a large size fire and that you will have different responses from different GMs.

Also, my reading of the smoke rules is that until the mosquitos fail a fort save they literally don't care about the smoke. But again, expect table variation. At my table you die to swarms whole building a fire, at yours they are trivial.

Torches do no damage to swarms, or at best do 1 against AC 15. Good luck hitting it 31 times in 4 rounds.

[Psyren]

The swarm takes the fighter to negative con in 4 rounds. Any plan that takes longer then that auto fails.

You're not walking into the middle of the swarm and then setting the fire. You're supposed to detect them long before they detect you, remember? Are you as loud as 5000 droning bugs?



My point about my experience was that you need a large size fire and that you will have different responses from different GMs.

You don't need a fire that fills every square of the swarm either.



Also, my reading of the smoke rules is that until the mosquitos fail a fort save they literally don't care about the smoke.

In which case your GM is not playing the mindless insects like mindless insects and the CR should be increased appropriately.



Torches do no damage to swarms, or at best do 1 against AC 15. Good luck hitting it 31 times in 4 rounds.

That isn't RAI per PSFG/PSG, but walking up to them and swinging a torch should be a last resort anyway.

[Unavenger]

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures...A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

Splash weapons have an indeterminate number of creatures they can affect, and so bypass the first part. The primary target takes additional damage, but it is by no means the only target. There's no reason to apply the swarm trait immunity in thus situatiin, and an explicit reason not to. Unless you'd like to argue that you can't swing a torch at a swarm, since you'd need it to be a single target.

Emphasis mine. A splash weapon targets a specified number of creatures: one. This is spelled out twelve times in the rules for splash weapons and twice in the rules for alchemist's fire in specific. As I already pointed out.

EDIT: All of this is moot anyway because someone who's actually read the AP has gone through and pointed out that the PCs may well have no alchemist's fire at all at this point, and even if they did, they probably wouldn't hit with every flask, and would still therefore take 4d6-6d6 damage over the two rounds that the swarm would still survive, even if you ignore the rules and ignore the AP as well.

[noob]

I believed the expectation for swarms was the same as for the other monsters: swarms are supposed to be fought with fire and cave ins at low level.
At higher levels you fight them with lava, stars(not the tame ones from spells: real stars usually you do that by throwing the planet with the opponent at the star), seas of acid, blizzards and gates that leads directly on the head of the lady of pain.

[Firechanter]

@Madsamurai:
"That Damn Crab!" is a moniker for the Monstrous Crab that was published by WotC in the 3.5 era -- and, as it turns out, written by James Jacobs, who went on to become one of PF's head people.
It's essentially a Large amphibious, Mindless Vermin with 7HD, 66HP, AC19, 40ft Speed, 10ft Reach, 2 Claw Attacks +10 for 1d8+9 damage each AND Improved Grab AND Constrict (1d8+9 again). It lives at the seashore, and its description says that it drags grappled victims under water immediately. And for some irreproducible, unfathomable reason, JJ felt it would be fair to rate this monstrosity at CR3.

(Using the CR Guidelines that have been reverse-engineered for 3.5 at the time, it should probably sit somewhere between CR5 and 7. Basically the only defense 3.5 players have against this thing is the DM's reluctance to whip out the Grapple rules.)
At least the official PF version has been nerfed significantly and is no comparison.

But that only as a tangent. At least you can technically hurt it even though your odds are bad. What I really hate are enemies that you can't hurt at all, and/or who do things to you that your party can't even heal at this level.

Oh, that reminds me of another immense PF blunder: the Murder of Crows, another weapon-immune CR3 swarm that would not only do damage but also hack out your eyes. On a failed Reflex save you are Blinded, which can only be cured with a Remove Blindness spell, or waiting 1d4 days to heal. (We house-ruled that to be curable by a Heal Check.)

[Unavenger]

Tangentially, another dishonourable mention for the most ridiculous monster of its CR is probably the drowned, at CR 8, which forces everyone around it to make con checks or start to drown, every round.

Which reminds me that I forgot about distraction, which makes fighting the mosquitoes even less feasible.

[Tiktakkat]

You're not walking into the middle of the swarm and then setting the fire. You're supposed to detect them long before they detect you, remember? Are you as loud as 5000 droning bugs?

How exactly are you supposed to know that the 5,000 droning bugs constitute a swarm as per the rules and are not just flavor text?
How do you use casually use fire inside a wooden structure that can burn and destroy all your treasure?
Meanwhile, a mosquito swarm has a Perception check of +9. A 2nd level PC would have what, a +7 unless they are a cleric optimized for spotting? I guess maybe you are louder than 5,000 droning bugs. Go figure, right?


You don't need a fire that fills every square of the swarm either.

You don't? Where is that in the rules?
Who says the swarm cannot just avoid the spaces with smoke and go after the PCs on the other side of the smoke?
Which of course means that for the PCs to be safe they must be inside the smoke and must be making the saves.


In which case your GM is not playing the mindless insects like mindless insects and the CR should be increased appropriately.

Where in the rules does it say mindless insects automatically flee from smoke? Because I am not seeing that anyway in the Vermin type or the Swarm subtype.
Certainly they should, but you are projecting into the rules that a swarm will instantly flee from any area where there is smoke in the vicinity, not merely from squares affected by smoke, which you are also reinterpreting to be subjective, something never mentioned in the rules either.

Sure, swarms are completely harmless if you selectively interpret the rules on smoke and add "realistic" reactions to insect swarms.
Wait, what about non-insect swarms? Do bats also flee in terror from the dreaded wisp of smoke that only affects their fine lungs but does nothing to halfling or larger sized-lungs?
And what about familiars? Does the insect-suffocating smoke also suffocate tiny familiars?

You are building up a whole bunch of house rules and insisting it is RAI at this point.

Oh, and as for flint and steel:

Lighting a torch with a flint and steel is a full-round action. Lighting any other fire with them takes at least that long.
Plus the action to retrieve the torch.
And the action to retrieve the flint and steel.
By which time the swarm is in your space and you failing saves versus Distraction.
So much for the spontaneous fire option.

[Clementx]

Emphasis mine. A splash weapon targets a specified number of creatures: one. This is spelled out twelve times in the rules for splash weapons and twice in the rules for alchemist's fire in specific. As I already pointed out.

How many creatures does a sword target? A finite number? Then Tiny swarms are immune to weapon damage. But look that that, they explicitly take full damage from blunt and half from other weapons.i

So either hammers are area attacks, or the placement of the word target doesn't mean what you think it means.

[Unavenger]

How many creatures does a sword target? A finite number? Then Tiny swarms are immune to weapon damage. But look that that, they explicitly take full damage from blunt and half from other weapons.i

So either hammers are area attacks, or the placement of the word target doesn't mean what you think it means.

Or... specific trumps general, or weapons aren't effects (whereas splash weapons specifically are), or...

[Psyren]

How exactly are you supposed to know that the 5,000 droning bugs constitute a swarm as per the rules and are not just flavor text?

Distinguishing a swarm of 5000 insects in a 10ft. cube from background bugs is the GM's job. If they're actively trying to TPK you, sure, they can hide any information they want even if your character should be aware of it, but then you have a non-rules problem on your hands.

If you prefer a RAW answer, Perception DCs are to detect creatures, not background noise. At best, background bugs would be an unfavorable condition for +2 DC, which makes no difference (see below.)



How do you use casually use fire inside a wooden structure that can burn and destroy all your treasure?

What "treasure" do mosquito swarms usually have? Or more pointedly, how much treasure can a dead character carry?


Meanwhile, a mosquito swarm has a Perception check of +9. A 2nd level PC would have what, a +7 unless they are a cleric optimized for spotting? I guess maybe you are louder than 5,000 droning bugs. Go figure, right?

The Perception DC for a creature walking is 10. 5000 droning bugs is going to be several orders of magnitude louder than that, meaning you can notice them quite some distance away even just taking 10 and even with non-swarm-bugs around (see above). Noticing them before they notice you is trivial, just like it would be in real life. How many beehives do you walk into regularly?



You don't? Where is that in the rules?
...
Which of course means that for the PCs to be safe they must be inside the smoke and must be making the saves.

I quoted the rule, it says "heavy smoke." Your GM decides what that means for each creature (heavy smoke for a mosquito and heavy smoke for a humanoid are two different things) - and again, if you have one that's trying to kill you then that's a problem for your table to deal with, preferably by voting with your feet.


Who says the swarm cannot just avoid the spaces with smoke and go after the PCs on the other side of the smoke?

Mindless creatures don't use tactics. If your GM is doing that, they need to raise the CR.



Where in the rules does it say mindless insects automatically flee from smoke? Because I am not seeing that anyway in the Vermin type or the Swarm subtype.

Where in the rules does it say wild animals fear and avoid fire? At some point you need common sense for the game to function.

[Hunter Noventa]

The worst swarm I can remember encountering was the Ephemeral Swarm, can't recall if it was 3.5 of PF, but it was about Cr5, undead, Incorpoeral, and did automatic Strength damage.

[Hellpyre]

Or... specific trumps general, or weapons aren't effects (whereas splash weapons specifically are), or...

In fact, splash weapons are explicitly, you know, weapons.

[hamishspence]

The worst swarm I can remember encountering was the Ephemeral Swarm, can't recall if it was 3.5 of PF, but it was about Cr5, undead, Incorpoeral, and did automatic Strength damage.

3.5: the book it's in is MM3.

[Unavenger]

In fact, splash weapons are explicitly, you know, weapons.

...which would also imply that the mosquito swarms were immune to them, in that case.

Splash weapons are effects because the text outright says they are, hammers aren't effects they're hammers.

[Kraynic]

In fact, splash weapons are explicitly, you know, weapons.

The problem with thinking that way is that some swarms are specifically immune to weapon damage:

A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.

The real question is whether the initial hit from a flask of whatever is a single target weapon attack that falls under that immunity, or whether it should fall under the specific call out of splash weapons:

A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

Games that I have been in have always treated the initial hit of acid flasks or alchemist fire as something that could hit the swarm. Whether it is RAW or not, I don't think I would want to play otherwise. Try dealing with swarms when your only arcane caster that particular session is a bard... Swarms suck.

From a post upthread, am I understanding right that the only mention in PF for torches damaging swarms is in Society play rules? I have never been involved in PFS, nor do I have any of the books. If that is the only place it mentions it, then no wonder I haven't found anything in what I have access to.

[Rynjin]

There are few CR 3 creatures in Pathfinder as absurd as the Twigjack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/twigjack/).

[Unavenger]

There are few CR 3 creatures in Pathfinder as absurd as the Twigjack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/twigjack/).

Eh, they kept the allip (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/allip) at CR 3, and there's also the caryatid column (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/caryatid-column) which is immune to magic and has dr 5/- and deals quite a lot of damage to any weapon that hits it. That's just on a quick stroll through the a-c of CR 3. There's a lot of dumb mis-CRed stuff.

[icefractal]

I feel like there's two ways to reasonably look at the swarm:

Game Rules - They have a Stealth of +1. They have no particular vulnerability to fire or smoke. Even assuming that the party has sufficient alch fire and that they take the direct-hit effects, it's going to be a brutal fight.

Realistically - Throwing molotovs at a flying swarm of mosquitoes does not, in fact, sound very effective. Building a smoky fire seems viable if you can do it in advance, but would take far too long if they're already swarming you. Also, 5000+ mosquitoes swarming around you sounds goddamn horrifying and I would fully expect to die in that situation.

The only disconnect here is "CR 3" - they sound just fine as a higher-CR creature.

[Madsamurai]

Distinguishing a swarm of 5000 insects in a 10ft. cube from background bugs is the GM's job. If they're actively trying to TPK you, sure, they can hide any information they want even if your character should be aware of it, but then you have a non-rules problem on your hands.

If you prefer a RAW answer, Perception DCs are to detect creatures, not background noise. At best, background bugs would be an unfavorable condition for +2 DC, which makes no difference (see below.)





Swarms get no penalty to stealth. I imagine that mosquitoes mostly aren't flying but are sitting on the water. Also, what if the PCs aren't native to the swamp and fail their knowledge nature check. The dm says "You hear a loud buzzing from the ruin you need to investigate. You don't know what causes it." What to the PCs do? Walk in and die? The swarm has +9 perception so there is a good chance any scout is spotted.

Swarm damage is mostly based on HD. If you replace the mosquitoes with some crawly insect, their damage and hp will be the same, but you won't be able to say they have -infinity to stealth. Is that swarm higher CR?





The Perception DC for a creature walking is 10. 5000 droning bugs is going to be several orders of magnitude louder than that, meaning you can notice them quite some distance away even just taking 10 and even with non-swarm-bugs around (see above). Noticing them before they notice you is trivial, just like it would be in real life. How many beehives do you walk into regularly?



I quoted the rule, it says "heavy smoke." Your GM decides what that means for each creature (heavy smoke for a mosquito and heavy smoke for a humanoid are two different things) - and again, if you have one that's trying to kill you then that's a problem for your table to deal with, preferably by voting with your feet.



Mindless creatures don't use tactics. If your GM is doing that, they need to raise the CR.



Where in the rules does it say wild animals fear and avoid fire? At some point you need common sense for the game to function.


I mean, its great if this is how you play swarms at your table and your group has fun, but its clear that many people in this thread don't agree with your approach. So either we are all terrible people that love to drink the tears of players, or swarms are poorly written.


There are few CR 3 creatures in Pathfinder as absurd as the Twigjack (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/twigjack/).

I don't really see it. It's damage is mediocre, and the save DC is low. Remember, dimension door ends your turn. so its mostly a case of readying to thwack it when it attacks you, or beating it's mediocre initiative after the surprise round and pasting the poor bugger.

[Rynjin]

I don't really see it. It's damage is mediocre, and the save DC is low. Remember, dimension door ends your turn. so its mostly a case of readying to thwack it when it attacks you, or beating it's mediocre initiative after the surprise round and pasting the poor bugger.

+22 Stealth. Here's how a standard encounter plays out.

It sneaks up on the party and zaps them for 4d6 damage (average 14), then teleports out.

It stays away for a while and then comes back and zaps them again, then retreats once more. Your archers and casters can ready, but your melee boys are SOL.

Then again.

And again.

It only needs to zoop about 10 feet in its standard terrain (heavily wooded areas) and explicitly Dimension Doors as part of a Move action, making it valid to re-stealth as part of it if it TPs behind cover.

Sure they might be able to beat its Initiative, and might be able to kill it in one round. Might. If they don't, that's pretty much it. Their one chance to get it is when it only has a Standard or a Move and not both.

It's fairly difficult for a 3rd level party to fight, and is exponentially more difficult for each Twigjack you add to the fight. Two Twigjacks are CR 4 even less than a single one is CR 3.

[Bartmanhomer]

This is the same thing as D&D 3.5.

[AvatarVecna]

This is the same thing as D&D 3.5.

Is this a comment on swarm tactics specifically, or Pathfinder in general? :smalltongue:

[Bartmanhomer]

Is this a comment on swarm tactics specifically, or Pathfinder in general? :smalltongue:

Good one. But on a more serious note: If you have a regular lantern with non-magical fire then it shouldn't be an issue at all for dealing with swarms. :wink:

[Firechanter]

Yeah, while in reality 5000 mosquitos would make an infernal noise, this isn't reflected in the stats. (But again, IRL they have a top speed of about 2-3km/h as well...)

Many DMs prolly don't give it a lot of thought and simply do as it says in the book.
If memory serves, that S&S swarm is not perceivable at all because when you get there, the bugs are feeding on a sailor who'd hanged himself and turned into a ghoul. When you kill the (still hanging) ghoul, the swarm rises. Ah yes, and they don't transmit malaria but ghoul fever.

On another note, my current DM has asked on at least two occasions if swarms can stack. He'd have liked that, piling 12d6 swarm damage and 6 saves per round. :p We denied that by arguing that a 4 square swarm can't choose to condense to 1 square either. If it comes up again, I'll make sure to add that they would damage (and possibly distract) each other. ^^

[Bartmanhomer]

Yeah, while in reality 5000 mosquitos would make an infernal noise, this isn't reflected in the stats. (But again, IRL they have a top speed of about 2-3km/h as well...)

Many DMs prolly don't give it a lot of thought and simply do as it says in the book.
If memory serves, that S&S swarm is not perceivable at all because when you get there, the bugs are feeding on a sailor who'd hanged himself and turned into a ghoul. When you kill the (still hanging) ghoul, the swarm rises. Ah yes, and they don't transmit malaria but ghoul fever.

On another note, my current DM has asked on at least two occasions if swarms can stack. He'd have liked that, piling 12d6 swarm damage and 6 saves per round. :p We denied that by arguing that a 4 square swarm can't choose to condense to 1 square either. If it comes up again, I'll make sure to add that they would damage (and possibly distract) each other. ^^
5,000?! Aye Carumba. I just wish that bug spray was included in Pathfinder unless if it's homebrew.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, while in reality 5000 mosquitos would make an infernal noise, this isn't reflected in the stats. (But again, IRL they have a top speed of about 2-3km/h as well...)

Many DMs prolly don't give it a lot of thought and simply do as it says in the book.
If memory serves, that S&S swarm is not perceivable at all because when you get there, the bugs are feeding on a sailor who'd hanged himself and turned into a ghoul. When you kill the (still hanging) ghoul, the swarm rises. Ah yes, and they don't transmit malaria but ghoul fever.

On another note, my current DM has asked on at least two occasions if swarms can stack. He'd have liked that, piling 12d6 swarm damage and 6 saves per round. :p We denied that by arguing that a 4 square swarm can't choose to condense to 1 square either. If it comes up again, I'll make sure to add that they would damage (and possibly distract) each other. ^^

Not to rain on your parade, but a 10 square swarm absolutely can compress to 1 square, or less for that matter. And swarms actually DO "combine", though probably not in the way your GM would expect:


Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.

On compressing:


A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.

Re: Stealth: remember vermin are mindless; they do not attempt Stealth unless directly listed in their tactics. If not using Stealth (which they aren't) they are perceivable as normal, no check required.

[animewatcha]

Crazy shot in the dark here. How big is your typical sack in dnd/pathfinder?
What rules would be involved in one person engulfing swarm of these flying bugs ( not all swarms in general just these guys with their 2d6+extras ) within a sack. While closing he sack, a casting of create water within in to drown the bugs?

[Firechanter]

@Rynjin: yes of course they can squeeze. But a 10x10ft swarm squeezing on 5x5 doesn't suddenly inflict quadruple damage to its victim.

@animewatcha: that's basically how we handled butterfly nets.

[Seerow]

Crazy shot in the dark here. How big is your typical sack in dnd/pathfinder?
What rules would be involved in one person engulfing swarm of these flying bugs ( not all swarms in general just these guys with their 2d6+extras ) within a sack. While closing he sack, a casting of create water within in to drown the bugs?

There's not really words for that, and if we're playing up realism I can only imagine the futility of swinging a canvas bag around trying to scoop up thousands of insects as they try to eat me alive.

[AvatarVecna]

There's not really words for that, and if we're playing up realism I can only imagine the futility of swinging a canvas bag around trying to scoop up thousands of insects as they try to eat me alive.

Would it help if you attached a stick and called it a butterfly net?

[Madsamurai]

+22 Stealth. Here's how a standard encounter plays out.

It sneaks up on the party and zaps them for 4d6 damage (average 14), then teleports out.

It stays away for a while and then comes back and zaps them again, then retreats once more. Your archers and casters can ready, but your melee boys are SOL.

Then again.

And again.

It only needs to zoop about 10 feet in its standard terrain (heavily wooded areas) and explicitly Dimension Doors as part of a Move action, making it valid to re-stealth as part of it if it TPs behind cover.

Sure they might be able to beat its Initiative, and might be able to kill it in one round. Might. If they don't, that's pretty much it. Their one chance to get it is when it only has a Standard or a Move and not both.

It's fairly difficult for a 3rd level party to fight, and is exponentially more difficult for each Twigjack you add to the fight. Two Twigjacks are CR 4 even less than a single one is CR 3.

This may be off topic, but I see it going like this:

twiggy sneaks up, easy peasy. It fires off 4d6 (save for half) dealing about 11 damage. Then the party rolls initiative. About half the party beats it's initiative and it eats 10 to 15 damage. On it's turn, it drops another 11 damage on a couple of party members and then leaves. If it comes back again it has a good chance of dying.

Its also quite possible that the wizard beat's it's initiative and bops it with a color spray, meaning it eats the full party's attack and is probably dead.

If the 2 PCs that beat twigs in initiative both hit, there is a good chance it is dead right there. It's AC is good but not spectacular.

Now if the GM lets it keep stealth while using its' bramble spray then ya, it's nuts.

[animewatcha]

Realism-wise, I know it doesn't work. However, we are talking about a game and resources for level 1-2 characters in an environment that likely doesn't sell butterfly nets exactly.

[Rynjin]

This may be off topic, but I see it going like this:

twiggy sneaks up, easy peasy. It fires off 4d6 (save for half) dealing about 11 damage. Then the party rolls initiative. About half the party beats it's initiative and it eats 10 to 15 damage. On it's turn, it drops another 11 damage on a couple of party members and then leaves. If it comes back again it has a good chance of dying.

Its also quite possible that the wizard beat's it's initiative and bops it with a color spray, meaning it eats the full party's attack and is probably dead.

If the 2 PCs that beat twigs in initiative both hit, there is a good chance it is dead right there. It's AC is good but not spectacular.

Now if the GM lets it keep stealth while using its' bramble spray then ya, it's nuts.

I think that a creature dangerous enough to merit a solo Color Spray from a 2nd-3rd level Wizard kind of sells its danger level on that point alone.

The party is going to win, almost certainly, but eating 7-28 damage with little recourse is rough.

[Tiktakkat]

Distinguishing a swarm of 5000 insects in a 10ft. cube from background bugs is the GM's job. If they're actively trying to TPK you, sure, they can hide any information they want even if your character should be aware of it, but then you have a non-rules problem on your hands.

If you prefer a RAW answer, Perception DCs are to detect creatures, not background noise. At best, background bugs would be an unfavorable condition for +2 DC, which makes no difference (see below.)

No, I prefer an answer that accounts for adventure writing.
Where non-boxed text might say:


These rotting heads are now infested with botflies carrying ghoul fever, which swarm around the heads in ugly black clouds. Creatures that strike, remove, or otherwise tamper with the heads release a swarm of botflies that immediately attacks.

Now, are those flies which "swarm" around the head a subtype swarm, or just an ordinary swarm?
And how exactly does a subtype swarm that is 10' x 10' fit inside a tiny sized human head?
(Oh right, "compression" as mentioned.)

Or perhaps:

The stench of rot is overpowering and flies swarm within the room, particularly around the hooded corpse hanging from a chain off a beam in the middle of the room.

Again, exactly what kind of swarm is that swarming around?

But yes, it is indeed a non-rules question as to how to deal with indirect wording like that.
Which means that a RAW answer is completely useless for answering it.


What "treasure" do mosquito swarms usually have? Or more pointedly, how much treasure can a dead character carry?

Quite a bit actually, if the swarm is "guarding" (infesting) a long abandoned shack.
That will burn nicely when you start setting fires to smoke the insects out.


The Perception DC for a creature walking is 10. 5000 droning bugs is going to be several orders of magnitude louder than that, meaning you can notice them quite some distance away even just taking 10 and even with non-swarm-bugs around (see above). Noticing them before they notice you is trivial, just like it would be in real life. How many beehives do you walk into regularly?

The Perception check is DC 10. At 5' away.
At 15' away, it is DC 12, going up thereafter.
And of course, the swarm gets the same chance to notice you.
Initiative then determines who goes first. You cannot take 10 on initiative.
So no, noticing them before they notice you and decide to swarm on you is not trivial, unlike in real life.


I quoted the rule, it says "heavy smoke." Your GM decides what that means for each creature (heavy smoke for a mosquito and heavy smoke for a humanoid are two different things) - and again, if you have one that's trying to kill you then that's a problem for your table to deal with, preferably by voting with your feet.

Yes, you quoted the rule. And nowhere in that does it say that the DM decides what that means for each creature, or that it is different for a mosquito versus a medium humanoid.
That is your house rule, not the RAI.


Mindless creatures don't use tactics. If your GM is doing that, they need to raise the CR.

What tactics?
Going around an obstacle is not tactics. It is a simple requirement of movement.
If you consider basic maneuver to be "tactics", which insects use rather constantly when hunting, then you are not playing them according to common sense.


Where in the rules does it say wild animals fear and avoid fire? At some point you need common sense for the game to function.

Ah! The common sense rule! On page xx.
Which of course applies to swarms of 5,000 mosquitos that inflict enough damage to kill a normal person in 1 round.
Because of course nobody in real life has ever walked into a cloud of mosquitos and walked out alive before.
And wait, I thought insects were mindless? How can they "fear" anything? Wouldn't avoiding fire qualify as a tactic?

However,

I mean, its great if this is how you play swarms at your table and your group has fun, but its clear that many people in this thread don't agree with your approach. So either we are all terrible people that love to drink the tears of players, or swarms are poorly written.

Though I like to declare I am a terrible person (my motto is, "I'm not drawn that way, I'm just evil"), I cannot even get the children I teach to call me mean without "blackmailing" them and making them laugh, player tears taste terrible, and swarms are more "extremely underwritten" than "poorly written", though authors trying to be clever and other rules quirks often make the distinction irrelevant.

[Psyren]

No, I prefer an answer that accounts for adventure writing.
*snip*

You do realize that both of your quotes provide clear ways to warn the players, right? Warnings you're supposed to give?



Quite a bit actually, if the swarm is "guarding" (infesting) a long abandoned shack.
That will burn nicely when you start setting fires to smoke the insects out

Putting aside that you can set the fire outside the shack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebreak) - if said shack is infested and you have no way to deal with the swarm, what exactly were you planning to do instead? Write a sonnet? :smalltongue:



The Perception check is DC 10. At 5' away.

Perception extends out to the range of your senses, not 5'.


Yes, you quoted the rule. And nowhere in that does it say that the DM decides what that means for each creature, or that it is different for a mosquito versus a medium humanoid.
That is your house rule, not the RAI.

Show me the RAW definition of "heavy smoke" then; I'll wait.


What tactics?

The kind that let mindless bugs ignore fire and smoke.



Ah! The common sense rule! On page xx.

Ah, redacted from your volume, I see :smallwink:

[crayzz]

I can't find the equivalent in PF, but in 3.5 mindless creatures are described as following simple instincts, for which I'd say "avoid thing that hurts you" and "chase thing you want to eat" would qualify. Unless you can get the smoke to cover a wide area between you and a swarm that wants to eat you, I'm not convinced smoke is a magic "make the swarm go away" tactic. It can still see you, and if a clear path from it to you exists, it'll find that path eventually.

[Telok]

+22 Stealth. Here's how a standard encounter plays out...

Int 11, cruel trickster type, high stealth, darkvision. I'd think it would play with them for a while. Stay 100+ feet away most of the day, sneak in behind whoever is on watch, ruin supplies, lame horses, gank the wizard's familiar with a SA-splinters-jump away combo if given the chance. It would totally spray the party while they're asleep and only one person could threaten it. Casters might not be able to get spells back.

Yeah, I could see the twig coming back every night for a week and attacking once or twice, hours apart, when some low perception or slow speed character is on watch.

And really, would the encounter everyone is on about be any better if you replaced the swarm with an allip, or ankheg, or cochatrice, or shadow, or xorn?

Play it one way, critter pops out at point blank range on an unprepared party and DM plays it well, using all it's abilities to advantage. Play it another, party gets the perception checks at correct ranges, knowlege & survival checks the critter & environment fall under, monster isn't trying to hide, party probably gets warning & prep.

Take anything, especially an under cr monster, with an immunity or special attack or special movement. Then drop it on an unprepared party and play to it's strengths. Say "not in the rules, can't try that" to the solutions. Yeah, a level 3 party is gonna have some replacement characters coming by tomorrow. Soon you'll be hoping replacement players show up.

Really, int - is crippling. The thing is as smart as a roomba. It's as tactical as the beginner zone video game mobs that you're sent to kill 5 of so you can learn how to mash the attack button. Really it should be as simple as "food at point A, danger at point B, go to A". The swarm should come out, take one round of damage, and go back to the food source that doesn't fight back. It has neither round-to-round memory nor any real form of decision making. Run the mindless critter with a 3 path flow chart, starting at the beginning every turn.

[Raxxius]

I can't find the equivalent in PF, but in 3.5 mindless creatures are described as following simple instincts, for which I'd say "avoid thing that hurts you" and "chase thing you want to eat" would qualify. Unless you can get the smoke to cover a wide area between you and a swarm that wants to eat you, I'm not convinced smoke is a magic "make the swarm go away" tactic. It can still see you, and if a clear path from it to you exists, it'll find that path eventually.

True, but you just need a fast PC to kite the swarm away, then outrun it/hide until it's out of range/buggers off.

I've always held the view that swarms are lateral encounters, ie puzzles to solve, not to bash their heads in.

Swarms are dumb, and as such predictable.

As an aside unless you really get into the Indiana Jones style mood of running away (bravely) and get a kick about diving into the water/behind a tree stump or the like an avoiding them, they're dull encounters.

[unseenmage]

Iirc running from the swarm in this AP is a Very Bad Idea. The island they're on is swarming with a laundry list of creatures with grab and constrict almost all of which are under CRed.

When we ran it the party barely survived thanks to the cleric NPC curing their ghoul fever. Said NPC later died to the boss monster encounter essentially in exchange for me retconning their TPK. (I gave her a % chance to survive. The PC made it, the NPC didnt.)
And it was definitely the swarms which gave the party the most trouble. IIRC they too burned down the shack to escape the swarm that surprise popped out of the ghoul.

This also burned the nearby tree containing the chokers. I improvised that they were a mated pair and the surviving choker blamed and hunted the party to the next island where it was part of a subplot meant to strain relations with the very useful shipwright found there.

[vasilidor]

against the statted swarm I would expect most characters in the games I have GM'd in to die, horribly. against a similarly statted swarm (it was cr 8), in a group of monsters with 6 character levels I was an alchemist and the only one with an area attack. I saw the hitpoints on the swarm and realized that I would run out of bombs before it died, and that we would not be able to outrun it. we survived by using a summoned monster and a portable hole. we had a portable hole with a cr 8 swarm in it for awhile. then the swarm died from lack of air.

[Gnaeus]

Based on an encounter I had IRL, I will say that it is absolutely realistic for a big mob of mosquitoes to do their nasty mosquitoish thing silently until disturbed, then surprise attack the disturbing small child/presumably Murder hobo, and subsequently chase said small child/presumably also murderhobo while biting them several hundred times. The unrealistic thing is them being able to kill several large mammals in under 30 seconds. But the stealth check? Some species at least can do that.

Unfortunately I was unable to test the “light a fire” theory since I was running and screaming (and lacked appropriate equipment, because no one told 7 year old me I needed alchemist fire in that horse barn).

[Psyren]

A group of mosquitoes, even a large group, is not a swarm in D&D terms. You specifically need five thousand mosquitoes in a 10' cube to constitute a mosquito swarm. "I got stung a few times by several dozen/hundred mosquitoes that I didn't notice, once" is unfortunate, but not at all what the monster entry in the rulebook is referring to.

Running from it shouldn't be needed if the GM is providing the expected warnings provided in the module. Don't disturb the things teeming with them and avoid sleeping outside, that's the vast majority.

[Gnaeus]

A group of mosquitoes, even a large group, is not a swarm in D&D terms. You specifically need five thousand mosquitoes in a 10' cube to constitute a mosquito swarm. "I got stung a few times by several dozen/hundred mosquitoes that I didn't notice, once" is unfortunate, but not at all what the monster entry in the rulebook is referring to.

Running from it shouldn't be needed if the GM is providing the expected warnings provided in the module. Don't disturb the things teeming with them and avoid sleeping outside, that's the vast majority.

I’m sorry if I didn’t count them. Or ask them to form a cube. The point is that they can absolutely sit quietly until disturbed. And that’s normal mosquitos. Not super death murder mosquitoes like the beastiary describes.

10 x 10 cubes= unrealistic.
2d6 damage + bleed = unrealistic
Giant swarms of insects resting quietly until dusk or disturbed= absolutely realistic.

Regarding smoke, I have no idea, because no one has ever seen a mosquito like the ones in the monster entry. There is nothing normal about that. Those are like sky pirhana. Or mini stirges. I would rather be bitten by any mosquitoes anywhere in the world for 6 seconds than stabbed by 3 short swords, which is basically 2d6+bleed. But of all the absurd stuff they do that makes me shake my head the thought that they could be sitting until something stirs them up is the least problematic.

[Psyren]

I’m sorry if I didn’t count them. Or ask them to form a cube. The point is that they can absolutely sit quietly until disturbed. And that’s normal mosquitos. Not super death murder mosquitoes like the beastiary describes.

That wasn't directed specifically at you, but since you responded: do you truly not see the correlation between the quantity of creatures and the noise they make? Especially when the AP itself says they are actively swarming, not "sitting quietly."

[Kraynic]

That wasn't directed specifically at you, but since you responded: do you truly not see the correlation between the quantity of creatures and the noise they make? Especially when the AP itself says they are actively swarming, not "sitting quietly."

Clouds of mosquitoes aren't all that noisy in my experience. Not until they are trying to enter your ears to get to some nice (to them anyway) blood vessels. Or maybe clouds of mosquitoes in the swampy wooded areas of the Great Lakes are just exceptionally quiet.

[unseenmage]

2nd level James Bond:
Do you expect me to fight [swarms]?

Paizo Goldfinger:
No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die.

[Psyren]

Clouds of mosquitoes aren't all that noisy in my experience. Not until they are trying to enter your ears to get to some nice (to them anyway) blood vessels. Or maybe clouds of mosquitoes in the swampy wooded areas of the Great Lakes are just exceptionally quiet.

Did you see 5000 of them crammed into a 10' cube in the Great Lakes?

I feel like I'm trapped in a loop.

[Manyasone]

Funny, this thread reminded me of a biting midge plague we had last summer near a river close by. Those f*ckers are only three mm large but they bite like razors. I couldn't imagine the damage they'd do to a person when you get stuck in a cloud of them and they are out for blood. Makes me grateful the insects on our world aren't mutated death machines

[Kraynic]

Did you see 5000 of them crammed into a 10' cube in the Great Lakes?

I feel like I'm trapped in a loop.

Funny, so do I. My point being that if hundreds of them aren't louder than ambient noise of the outdoors, does it really follow that more of them will be loud enough to be obvious? I don't think it does.

Edit: I should say that it probably should make them easier to spot visually though.

[crayzz]

Did you see 5000 of them crammed into a 10' cube in the Great Lakes?

I feel like I'm trapped in a loop.

5000 mosquitoes in 1000 cubic feet really isn't all that noteworthy. Mosquitoes top out at 0.4" long; assuming a sphere (which is an overestimate of their actual volume), they only take up around 0.078% of the cube. Flying around in broad daylight, you'd be able to spot it if you had a clear, unobstructed view. At night, you're gonna have a much harder time. If the swarm isn't flying, you're liable to not notice them at all.

As for how loud they are, well, I can't actually find anything specific. A lot of textbook questions use ~40dB, which sounds about right, which would put 5000 of them at 114dB, putting them on par with a rock concert. This assumes absolutely no destructive interference, though, which is very unlikely to be true given that the wavelengths of the sounds are roughly on par with their distance of separation from each other. Still, the loudest they could possibly be would be noticeable from quite a distance in a relatively quiet swamp, assuming they were already flying. Again, if they're not, you have nothing to hear.

Now Pathfinder mosquitoes throw all this out the window. They're diminutive, which puts them at a minimum 6" long, which, uh.

Look, the most 6" spheres you could possibly cram into a 1000 cubic feet is around 11000, which means the 5000 mosquitoes are taking up 44% of that cube. I'm not convinced they can even effectively fly under those conditions. I'm not any good at statistical mechanics, but I'm gonna guess that's not viable. And the area they'd take up while not flying is massive. You'd need a 65ft square to fit them all.**

Anyway, my take away from this thread is that to get a swarm of mosquitoes to work as a reasonable encounter for four 2nd level characters, you have have to take a selective mix of RAW, RAI, and extrapolations from "real world intuitions" that, applied consistently, clash with the actual description and described behavior of these things (there's flat out no way you can cram 10000 botflies, which are described as "controlling 1/2ft of space" as fine creatures, onto some rotting heads; I'm not sure you can do that with real botflies). **

The answer to "how is a 2nd level party supposed to fight these things" is "they're badly designed, just make whatever changes feel reasonable to make them level appropriate."

**EDIT

I actually double checked and RAW this definitely wouldn't work. You can only fit 100 fine creatures into a 5ft square, and 25 diminutive creatures. A swarm of botflies that isn't actually swarming (so just 10000 botflies) would need 100 squares minimum: waaaaay more space than a group of heads can manage to fit.

***EDIT AGAIN

This is what 10000 mosquitoes looks like. (https://www.fightagainstmalaria.com/david-beckham-steps-box-swarmed-10000-mosquitos-reason-deserves-applause/) That many mosquitoes in, I'm guessing, roughly 20 times the volume doesn't strike me as particularly noticeable from a distance. Nor is he deafened by their sheer volume, or even wearing any protection, so I don't think it's fair to say a swarm of 10000 insects necessarily has a massive, easily-heard-from-a-mile-away noise volume.

[Psyren]

My point being that if hundreds of them aren't louder than ambient noise of the outdoors, does it really follow that more of them will be loud enough to be obvious? I don't think it does.

"The ambient noise of the outdoors" is a +2 DC modifier by RAW. And it clearly isn't RAI that they aren't noticeable since the AP provides descriptions to help the party notice them.


Funny, so do I.

Allow me to break it then, by agreeing to disagree. Enjoy the AP.

[Seerow]

"The ambient noise of the outdoors" is a +2 DC modifier by RAW. And it clearly isn't RAI that they aren't noticeable since the AP provides descriptions to help the party notice them.
If we're going by raw, you follow their +1 stealth mode, not your arbitrary measure of how loud you think a lot of insects are.

[Tiktakkat]

You do realize that both of your quotes provide clear ways to warn the players, right? Warnings you're supposed to give?

You do know that conflation of game terms with flavor text was lampshaded as a problem years ago in Knights of the Dinner table. (When the DM said the monsters "stared in surprise" at the entry of the PCs, and the rules lawyer player insisted that meant the PCs had surprised the monsters.)
And you do know that WotC writers acknowledged issues with duplicated terms in 3.5 products. ("My warforged scout fighter . ." "He's multiclassed?" "No, single classed fighter." "But . . .")
As for "giving warnings", the boxed text also says the corpse reeks. Does that mean you tell them outright it is a ghast?
Boxed text and flavor text are not monster identification information.
In fact on that account, by 3.5 RAW, a typical farmer could milk a cow but could not identify it. Which is the reason PFRPG added a modifier for common and rare creatures to monster ID DCs.
Of course if none of the PCs has Knowledge (dungeoneering) or (nature), or they just tank their Intelligence checks, then any warnings are wasted.


Putting aside that you can set the fire outside the shack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebreak) - if said shack is infested and you have no way to deal with the swarm, what exactly were you planning to do instead? Write a sonnet? :smalltongue:

At which point, as I said, you burn the treasure.
Which you said a mosquito will not have.


Perception extends out to the range of your senses, not 5'.

Yes, and Perception checks take a penalty for every 10' distance.
Put those mosquitos 80' (a double move) away, and now you have a DC 18 Perception check before they are drinking you dry.


Show me the RAW definition of "heavy smoke" then; I'll wait.

No, you show me the RAW definition, and not just your house rule.
You are the one who appealed to the rule; you are the one who must prove it.
I won't wait because I already know it does not exist.


The kind that let mindless bugs ignore fire and smoke.

They are not ignoring it, they are avoiding it.
Which you said is what they do.
So are instincts tactics or not?

[Rynjin]

If we're going by raw, you follow their +1 stealth mode, not your arbitrary measure of how loud you think a lot of insects are.

Their +1 Stealth doesn't really matter, as they are mindless and are not listed as using ambush tactics (like spiders are). So it's just a base Perception DC of 0 ("Notice a visible creature") with a +1 per 10 feet of distance. So if we're just going pure RAW, anybody with a 10 Wis or higher can perceive it from 100 feet away without even trying.



Yes, and Perception checks take a penalty for every 10' distance.
Put those mosquitos 80' (a double move) away, and now you have a DC 18 Perception check before they are drinking you dry.

DC 8, as mentioned above.

[Psyren]

You do know that conflation of game terms with flavor text was lampshaded as a problem years ago in Knights of the Dinner table.

I neither know nor care what "Knights of the Dinner table" is. I'm talking about the Skull & Shackles adventure path, which has information that the players are expected to know. Unless of course the GM is actively trying to TPK them, which is not a problem with the game.



At which point, as I said, you burn the treasure.
Which you said a mosquito will not have.

You're not getting it anyway if you can't go in there without dying, so who cares?
Do your best to smoke them out without the fire spreading, but if you fail and roast them all, hey, XP.


Yes, and Perception checks take a penalty for every 10' distance.
Put those mosquitos 80' (a double move) away, and now you have a DC 18 Perception check before they are drinking you dry.

Where is your base DC of 10 to notice a visible creature coming from?



No, you show me the RAW definition, and not just your house rule.

"Heavy Smoke" is on CRB pg. 426. Defining it beyond that is up to the GM, because they are the "final arbiter" of the rules (CRB pg. 9). Your rebuttal?



They are not ignoring it, they are avoiding it.
Which you said is what they do.
So are instincts tactics or not?

"Avoiding it" would be moving away from the source, not towards it tactically.


Their +1 Stealth doesn't really matter, as they are mindless and are not listed as using ambush tactics (like spiders are). So it's just a base Perception DC of 0 ("Notice a visible creature") with a +1 per 10 feet of distance. So if we're just going pure RAW, anybody with a 10 Wis or higher can perceive it from 100 feet away without even trying.

DC 8, as mentioned above.

Thank you, it's really not that hard.

[Tiktakkat]

I neither know nor care what "Knights of the Dinner table" is. I'm talking about the Skull & Shackles adventure path, which has information that the players are expected to know. Unless of course the GM is actively trying to TPK them, which is not a problem with the game.

No, you are talking about your house rules and how you play.
And again insisting that everyone who does not play by them is doing something wrong.


You're not getting it anyway if you can't go in there without dying, so who cares?
Do your best to smoke them out without the fire spreading, but if you fail and roast them all, hey, XP.

Yep, "hey, XP".
Because this game is about getting XP and gp, not about avoiding every encounter until the campaign is tanked.


Where is your base DC of 10 to notice a visible creature coming from?

Right there - base DC 10 to notice a visible creature, modified by +8 for range. That makes the total 18.
Or 8 if the base DC is 0.
Either way, that still does not account for initiative. Just because spot the creature does not mean you get to go first.
Or that you manage to get your instant smoky fire going instantly.


"Heavy Smoke" is on CRB pg. 426. Defining it beyond that is up to the GM, because they are the "final arbiter" of the rules (CRB pg. 9). Your rebuttal?

You still have not shown me your rule in the text.
You have a specific definition that is not in the text.
That makes it a house rule, not RAW.

[quote]"Avoiding it" would be moving away from the source, not towards it tactically.[/SPOILER]

According to you.
According to most mosquitos, it is avoiding it and getting to the yummy dinner.

[noob]

Wait so avoiding all encounters or possibilities of encounters and reach your goal is not considered maximally efficient victory?

[AvatarVecna]

Wait so avoiding all encounters or possibilities of encounters and reach your goal is not considered maximally efficient victory?

Murdering monsters is how you win at D&D. Everything else is window-dressing, this game is a strategic wargame with the DM as the opposition.

[icefractal]

The issue I have with starting a fire once you're in combat with them is that it feels like the commoner railgun - reliant on mixing RAW with realism in the most convenient way.

Realistically yes, a big smoky fire would repel mosquitoes. But realistically, you're not getting such a fire going in six seconds or even a minute.

Now you can come from the other standpoint - the rules say I can, and this is a world where people can throw fireballs. Maybe my Ranger is a super-survivalist who can make a bonfire by kicking some logs.

But by that standard, maybe these are super-mosquitoes who don't give a **** about some smoke. Because if we're only going by the rules, it doesn't hurt them much.

And while sure, if I were running and this situation occurred, I'd be inclined to rule in the way that didn't make the PCs unavoidably screwed ... why not just avoid putting them in that position in the first place?

[Psyren]

No, you are talking about your house rules and how you play.
And again insisting that everyone who does not play by them is doing something wrong.

What rulebook are Dinner Table Knights in again?



Yep, "hey, XP".
Because this game is about getting XP and gp, not about avoiding every encounter until the campaign is tanked.

I never said "avoid every encounter." There are plenty of non-swarm enemies in D&D, and even in that module.
Besides which, dispersing the swarm counts as defeating it and would get XP too.


Right there - base DC 10 to notice a visible creature

incorrect, noticing something that's just visible is DC 0.



You still have not shown me your rule in the text.
You have a specific definition that is not in the text.
That makes it a house rule, not RAW.

This might come as a surprise, but RAW is written in English, which gets interpreted by the GM whenever a specific definition isn't provided in the text. That is one of their jobs as the final rules arbiter, just like they have to interpret clauses like "unreasonable commands" or "anything the subject wouldn't ordinarily do."



According to you.
According to most mosquitos, it is avoiding it and getting to the yummy dinner.

That is a potential outcome if your smoke isn't thick enough to count as "heavy smoke."


The issue I have with starting a fire once you're in combat with them is that it feels like the commoner railgun - reliant on mixing RAW with realism in the most convenient way.

I never said anything about "starting a fire once you're in combat with them." That's where noticing them in advance, as the module expects you to do, comes into play.

[vasilidor]

what I have learned from all of this bickering is do not use swarms on new players or low level characters. got it.

[Eldariel]

Silent Image is great against swarms that rely on vision. They're mostly mindless so you can kinda just make 'em stay inside an illusionary prison. Swarms with auxiliary detection methods (such as Spider Swarm) are a bit trickier, but Summons can still be used to lure them away.

[Missing]

So my thoughts on the whole use fire to drive them off which seems to keep coming up.

Psyren keeps saying to build the fire outside, before the swarm notices the party. In my experience a fire, even a very smoky one, built outside tends to have most of the smoke rise upwards only creating a small area directly around it that is somewhat smoky but not what i would even remotely consider "Heavy Smoke" thick enough to be a danger to those inside it.

Building the fire inside is, as far as i can tell, agreed to be a BAD idea, at least a 1-2 rounds to get it started, maybe a few more for the smoke to build up? During which time the swarm is potentially doing serious damage. Furthermore a smoky fire is usually smoky due to green/wet materials being burnt making it harder to keep going especially if its a small fire.


My suggestion for the best approach would be the combination of a couple ideas mentioned. First step use summons to distract the swarm. Summon a couple big meaty creatures (cows) and send them in first. While they are being drained build up a fire inside the shack get it as hot as you can as quickly as possible then dump a bunch of green leaves or similar on it and book it out the door and hope for the best.

All that said however the fact that you need to take such a cautious approach suggests that the swarm is pretty poorly CRd (though I think most people agree on that at the very least). Furthermore the above approach only works if the party notices the swarm before they enter the shack on are able to prepare appropriately and someone mentioned that this swarm in particular is in fact 'at rest' before being disturbed.

[Yahzi Coyote]

start a fire and get some smoke going
That is an excellent idea, but in 24 seconds?

[noob]

That is an excellent idea, but in 24 seconds?

You do that with Molotov cocktails(or alchemist fire) and heavy amounts of alcohol, oil and coal?

[Kraynic]

You do that with Molotov cocktails(or alchemist fire) and heavy amounts of alcohol, oil and coal?

Sort of a "hold my beer" type of action? Sounds about right for most adventuring groups.

[noob]

Sort of a "hold my beer" type of action? Sounds about right for most adventuring groups.

Alcohol is easy to disperse and burns very well so you can use alcohol out of game and in game at once for fast fire starting shenanigans.

[Unavenger]

Sort of a "hold my beer" type of action? Sounds about right for most adventuring groups.

Your beer won't work. Your vodka, even, probably won't work either. In order to get alcohol to burn for more than flash-in-the-pan durations, it needs to be at least 50% alcohol by volume.

[Doctor Awkward]

Your beer won't work. Your vodka, even, probably won't work either. In order to get alcohol to burn for more than flash-in-the-pan durations, it needs to be at least 50% alcohol by volume.

Any alcohol of at least 78 proof (39%) will ignite immediately if exposed to an open flame. Alcohols of lesser proof will also ignite if they are heated first.

[Unavenger]

Any alcohol of at least 78 proof (39%) will ignite immediately if exposed to an open flame. Alcohols of lesser proof will also ignite if they are heated first.

From what I've seen, and I might have misinterpreted it (or the people who've said this might be wrong), but you won't get a sustained flame from anything below about 100 proof (apparently, this is the reasoning behind it being 100 proof, no less). In any case, you probably want a bit more than the minimum for the simple fact that the ABV will drop the moment that any of the alcohol combusts!

[noob]

From what I've seen, and I might have misinterpreted it (or the people who've said this might be wrong), but you won't get a sustained flame from anything below about 100 proof (apparently, this is the reasoning behind it being 100 proof, no less). In any case, you probably want a bit more than the minimum for the simple fact that the ABV will drop the moment that any of the alcohol combusts!
I was thinking about medical alcohol for disinfecting wounds when I was talking about starting a fire fast.
I did not think adventurers would try to start a fire with alcoholic beverages.

[Doctor Awkward]

From what I've seen, and I might have misinterpreted it (or the people who've said this might be wrong), but you won't get a sustained flame from anything below about 100 proof (apparently, this is the reasoning behind it being 100 proof, no less). In any case, you probably want a bit more than the minimum for the simple fact that the ABV will drop the moment that any of the alcohol combusts!

It can. It's not actually the liquid that's burning but rather the vapors that come off of it. This is why heating it first will cause it to catch more easily-- more vapors. Watch videos of "flaming shots" some time. Even ones with things like sambuca will burn for quite a while until consumed, which is why they are so dangerous. A restaurant I used to go to got sued because some idiot missed his mouth with a flaming shot and burned himself rather badly.

As an aside, I would personally never recommend eating or drinking anything that is on fire.

[Firechanter]

Guys? Topic?

[Psyren]

Guys? Topic?

They're under-CRed but there are still ways for low-level PCs to deal with them if they absolutely cannot be avoided. Those ways aren't foolproof and may result in collateral damage, both of which are reasonable when dealing with a pile of deadly bugs, but they beat walking into the gormlessly and getting chewed/stung to death. Were you looking for something else from this discussion?