Dump Scores

[Expected]

With the increasing danger of Int and Cha saves being more relevant, is it unwise to dump either of these scores? If I had to choose two scores to have at 8 (27 point buy) among Str, Int, or Cha, which is the best to dump?

Str saves are not very important and deal with falling prone, Int saves can be deadly with Mindflayers and Intellect Devourers, and Cha saves can be deadly if failed because of spells like Banishment.

[djreynolds]

Well how much to you have to increase the ability scores?

Is a 14 (+2) in intelligence going to save you?

If find the lucky feat to be very helpful?

The resistance cantrip, easily picked up with magic initiate, can be of help.

It depends on your class, but banishment is just that, banishment. Strength failure could mean your pinned or grappled and something like misty step can fix that.

Now psychic damage and the effects are nothing to sneeze at, and I would never dump intelligence but neither am I going to take resilient in this save

Dumping one stat for a meager +2 on another save isn't worth it. Grab the lucky feat

[MrCharlie]

The only real issue is if a save is below the realm of possibility due to you dumping it; I.E., the DC is 20 and you can only make a 19 now. This requires high level content, at which point you can usually offset the save with a cloak or a ring or something. Otherwise, an additional 5% chance of success is going to be salvageable with abilities that let you re-roll.

(As an aside, this is why Fighters benefit from mediocre saves; indomitable only works if the save is attainable, but does help offset such situations, hence +3 or +5 saves being actually useful)

In general, only INT is really vital (in some circumstances) now, because CHA saves usually just make you sit out, and STR saves just restrict movement. INT can turn you against the party with a third level spell, which is a severely more dangerous situation (I once created a death room with closing walls and three enemies abound spell glyphs as the final trap in a dungeon, and the results were likened to a blender). There are a few monsters that do trigger on CHA, but they aren't terribly common, mostly a few undead and such, and the DC's are attainable with luck, lucky, and some buffs.

[Theaitetos]

Any low saving throw value is a threat. That's part of the game and something you have to accept: you're not invulnerable.

Either you can decide to "tank up" with certain feats – which means you will be weaker in other areas (opportunity costs) –, or you accept these vulnerabilities and instead invest in strengths of your character.

Now if you play a certain campaign, say hunting elder brains in the Underdark, then you should definitely prepare against psychic damage and INT-saves by equipping items to protect you, or make a character specifically for that campaign: GOO Warlock (psychic resistance, mind shield), Rogue or Druid (INT save prof), Wizard (high INT, INT save prof). But it's generally not a good idea to be average everywhere just to protect against all saves.

If you want to be on the general safe side, play a Pureblood Yuan-Ti (race) Paladin-Warlock (class) with Fiend (patron) and Talisman (pact boon): The Paladin's Aura of Protection adds your CHA modifier to all saving throws; the Pact Talisman provides a ~2.5 boost to all non-proficient saving throws (including death saving throws!); the Fiend patron grants Fiendish Resilience (any single damage type resistance, choose on short rest) and Dark One's Own Luck (one-time short-rest saving throw bonus); Yuan-Ti Purebloods have natural spell resistance (and poison/poisoned immunity). Then whatever the enemy throws at you, you will have incredible resistance to it.

[Yunru]

Either you can decide to "tank up" with certain feats – which means you will be weaker in other areas (opportunity costs) –, or you accept these vulnerabilities and instead invest in strengths of your character.

Or take 14 levels of Monk :P

[Expected]

Or take 14 levels of Monk :P
Funny you should mention this, another character of mine died last night (the Fighter I had talked about before in my other threads) and I am planning on playing a Wood Elf Monk with high AC and saves because of Diamond Soul at 14. I had a floating 2 points for Str, Int, or Cha and wanted to know which save and score I should prioritize, hence the new thread.

[Dork_Forge]

I will always dump Strength because as long as you pick up Athletics it usually won't affect you that badly even if it does come up.

[Chaosticket]

Each Score is going to have something based on on it, but not necessarily as important as 3.5.

#1 Constitution isnt a Dump Stat for anybody.
#2 Dexterity is really useful for everybody. Armor Class, Initiative, several skills, its generally good.
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#3 Charisma, not the best ability score, but Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer and Warlock use it and they work well for multiclassing.
The most and least used Mental Score.

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#4 Wisdom. Cleric, Druid, Monk and Ranger use this. Wisdom-based Perception is the most important skill in he game

#5 Strength. Barbarian's need this, maybe Paladins, but most characters should skip this unless you are going for a Heavy Weapon build.

#6 Intelligence. only the Wizard, Artificier, Eldritch Knight subclass and Arcane Trickster subclass need this. So only 1 actual class out of the Player's Handbook uses Intelligence. Few people use this.

[JellyPooga]

Don't dump Str to 8. Ever. Absolute minimum is 10. It's just embarrassing not being able to jump over a standard issue 10ft pit without help (or an Athletics roll...which you'll suck at because, you know, you dumped Str).

[Wizard_Lizard]

roughy90% of my pcs dump strength.

[Warlush]

Two spells help me dump INT & WIS and sleep at night.

1. Counter Spell
2. Dispel Magic

[diplomancer]

Don't dump Str to 8. Ever. Absolute minimum is 10. It's just embarrassing not being able to jump over a standard issue 10ft pit without help (or an Athletics roll...which you'll suck at because, you know, you dumped Str).

ask someone to toss you, if you are that weak you are probably light ;)

unless you dumped Str and Dex, and then may the gods help you.

[Nidgit]

Dump Charisma, it's the most fun of the three to roleplay. Low Strength isn't relevant enough to be amusing and low Intelligence can obviously be fun but limits your ability to contribute to the party's strategizing.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

ask someone to toss you, if you are that weak you are probably light ;)

unless you dumped Str and Dex, and then may the gods help you.

Tie a rope around yourself and let you friends poll you up.

Or just use floating disk(my group ones made a train with floating disks(so many ritual casters) and a flaying boots to get around a river).

A floating disk can't be use for deep holes and the rope can't be used for shallow ones(with danger like acid pools).

[JellyPooga]

ask someone to toss you, if you are that weak you are probably light ;)
Tie a rope around yourself and let you friends poll you up.

Can you really call yourself an adventurer if you're relying on your party members to get you past even the most basic of traps/obstacles? How's that going to go, down at the local Adventurers Guild? People will be whispering about it behind your back and everything! Laughing stock of the Guild, they'll say. How embarassing... :smallbiggrin:

[Frozenstep]

Don't dump Str to 8. Ever. Absolute minimum is 10. It's just embarrassing not being able to jump over a standard issue 10ft pit without help (or an Athletics roll...which you'll suck at because, you know, you dumped Str).

Get an 11 foot pole, lay it over the pit, and then acrobatics check to stay balanced over it.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Can you really call yourself an adventurer if you're relying on your party members to get you past even the most basic of traps/obstacles? How's that going to go, down at the local Adventurers Guild? People will be whispering about it behind your back and everything! Laughing stock of the Guild, they'll say. How embarassing... :smallbiggrin:

In a party everyone can be Experts in their fields. Only a solo adventurer need to be able to do everything.
A solo adventurer is 1) bad at everything. 2) 1/10000000000 that can actually do everything.

[Misterwhisper]

Get an 11 foot pole, lay it over the pit, and then acrobatics check to stay balanced over it.

Every dm I have ever seen just let’s everyone use acrobatics for athletics unless it is a grapple check or you are trying to lift or shove something.

It usually goes:

Dm: ok everyone has to climb the cliff, athletics checks everyone.
Dex guy: can I do it with acrobatics?
Dm: climbing is athletics.
Dex: Jackie Chan does it all the time.
Dm: fine.

[Expected]

Every dm I have ever seen just let’s everyone use acrobatics for athletics unless it is a grapple check or you are trying to lift or shove something.

It usually goes:

Dm: ok everyone has to climb the cliff, athletics checks everyone.
Dex guy: can I do it with acrobatics?
Dm: climbing is athletics.
Dex: Jackie Chan does it all the time.
Dm: fine.

I follow strict RAW and RAI so I would roll and apply Athletics anyway, even if it was lower. As a former DM, I cringe every time fellow DM's ignore the rules and allow min-maxers like myself to not pay the price for our builds (Dex builds dumping Str, for example).

[Willie the Duck]

With the increasing danger of Int and Cha saves being more relevant, is it unwise to dump either of these scores? If I had to choose two scores to have at 8 (27 point buy) among Str, Int, or Cha, which is the best to dump?
Str saves are not very important and deal with falling prone, Int saves can be deadly with Mindflayers and Intellect Devourers, and Cha saves can be deadly if failed because of spells like Banishment.

That's a good question. Honestly, I'd like it to be the case. I think it would be fun to play someone who (via point buy) never purchased a point of attribute for more than one PB point (so, maximum of 13+racial). Maybe even a non-variant human with 12/14/14/14/13/14 who then picked up resilient:wis. Someone once mentioned that the obsession with starting with a 16+ main stat is overblown and I tentatively agree. However, I don't think going 100% well-rounded actually would pay off. You just don't roll enough of those alternate saves, nor use off-specialty skills or attributes enough to make them worthwhile. Even if they were, I think there are enough alternate ways to improve your saves and skills -- expertise, Bless, standing next to a paladin, avoiding having to make the save in the first place (through Counterspell, for instance) -- that I don't think that it would be a good strategy (but could be fun, nevertheless).


Every dm I have ever seen just let’s everyone use acrobatics for athletics unless it is a grapple check or you are trying to lift or shove something.
While I've seen this stated quite frequently online, I've never seen it in person. Regardless, much like DMs that don't care about encumbrance, yes if the DM is going to ignore aspects of a given score than it is going to be of lesser value. If that weren't the case then by default the stat would be over-important.