Silly Question: Would this break the Fighter...?

[Aotrs Commander]

Sanity check time.


Currently, I have my houseruled Fighters gaining a bonus feat (of any time, like a level-up feat) every odd level, starting at 3rd.

I have added Armour Training and Weapon Training from Pathfinder as alternate class features which you replace these feats with. (We're also on PF feat gain, so a feat every odd level; we're also still using 3.5 Power Attack.)



As I work through coverting over a load of PF feats on top of the 3.5 ones, there's so many, and characters only get a small selection and I'm giving serious consideration to "feat every level", but before I go that far, I'm wondering...



If I gave Fighters Armour and Weapon Training AND the bonus feat every odd level (including an extra one at first, since Fighters are literally the ONLY class that only gets one thing at first level now we're on PF standard), that's still not going to shatter game balance, yes?



Experimental examination: Looking at a maxed out (Small) NPC Fighter 20 I had previously generated, doing this would be effectively adding a +4 to his attack, damage and AC at 20th (over the 3.5 rules), plus he'd get an additional four feats - one for the new 1st level one and three from 3.5=>PF - (one of which could be Deadly Agility to add his Dex to damage, so his damage would go up by another +5).

So this Dex/weapon Finesse fighter would be on +41 Short Sword +5 (D4+24+D6 Fire) (+7 Dex + 5 Weapon, +2 Weapon Spec, +2 Greater Weapon Spec +2 Melee Weapon Mastery (P) +4 Weapon Training +5) (Over the 3.5 +37 (D4+13+D6 Fire)).

(He's an NPC, so he doesn't have a +6 enhancement bonus to his ability, which would further change it to +44 (D4+27+D6 Fire).)

His AC would be 45 (up from 41: +1 Size, +11 armour +5 (Leather => Breastplate with Armour Training), +1 Natural, +8 Heavy shield, +1 Weapon supremacy, +1 Phalanx Fighting (may be house ruled, I forget!))



Given that this dude has done nothing but get fairly passive feat bonuses (plus Weapon Focus/Spec and the Grts, plus Ranged Weapon Mastery for Longbow as a back-up weapon - dude doesn't even have point-blank shot, but he could grab that and precise with a couple of those new feats, maybe Piranna Strike to round off), that doesn't seem horribly unreasonable, given this is, like 20th level?



I mean, this particular NPC is just a straight load of Higher Numbers (in the encounter, he was backed up by a Sorc 12), but I... Don't think that's going to break anything, yah?

(He's probably be a pretty boring PC to play, granted, but to some extent, I want to leave Fighter as at least SOMEWHAT in the position of being able to be the designated "don't have to think too hard" class, while not forcing it.)

[DarkSoul]

Break? No. Make more powerful? Yes. More powerful than what a full caster can do to a game at the same level (past about level 6)? Absolutely not.

Comparing an upgraded class to itself at a given level won't tell you much. Compare it to what other classes do at the same level for a clearer picture.

[exelsisxax]

It wouldn't break the game if you jut ripped the PF fighter, gave it feats EVERY level, and let fighters change their feats every day and they could ignore all prereqs except level/BaB/skill ranks. They'd still be grunts that the fullcasters keep around solely to do the damage because they're lazy.

[Elricaltovilla]

You could give the fighter all Good Saves, 6 skill points per level, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Stalwart (and the improved version of each), D12 hit dice and bonus feats every level and even that might not break the game. As long as the only thing a fighter can really do well is swing a sword, he's no risk for game-breaking.

[Aotrs Commander]

Thanks folks; I was almost entirely certain that it wasn't going to cause any issues, but I felt I ought to at least run it past some other eyes incase there was something I'd missed.

[Elricaltovilla]

I would recommend actually switching the bonus feats progression to every even level instead of every odd level. Since if they are on the same level as your regular feat progression it makes levelling feel choppy.

[Aotrs Commander]

I would recommend actually switching the bonus feats progression to every even level instead of every odd level. Since if they are on the same level as your regular feat progression it makes levelling feel choppy.

Not quite; it was already set up so that the fighter got the usual bonus combat feat at first and every even level, but also got a bonus feat (or ANY type for which they meet the pre-reqs) at every odd level (used to be except first) - such that they basically got one feat a level from just class.

Now they will get baically two bonus feats at 1st (one combat, one anything they like), a bonus combat feat at every even level, a a bonus anything-feat at every odd level AND armour training and weapon training at the usual odd levels.

[Psyren]

So every even level they get a combat feat while every odd level they get two feats? That certainly makes a fighter dip more attractive... though that raises the questions of what they'll spend all those feats on. Are Stamina and/or Advanced Weapon/Armor Training allowed in your houserule system?

[Aotrs Commander]

So every even level they get a combat feat while every odd level they get two feats? That certainly makes a fighter dip more attractive... though that raises the questions of what they'll spend all those feats on. Are Stamina and/or Advanced Weapon/Armor Training allowed in your houserule system?

Not quite; they will now get one combat and one normal feat at level 1, and then a combat feat every even level and a bonus feat every odd level (plus now weapon training and armour training at the odd levels).

(Before, they got a combat feat only at first, a combat feat every even level and a bonus feat at every odd level starting at 3rd.)



Stamina training isn't (there is just a limit to how much I'm prepared to put in, and having to deal with that as well...), weapon training is; armour matery I simply have not bothered with on the basis I'm 99% sure no-one would ever take it.

As for what will they spend the feats on? Not counting only the feats that have no been altered from core 3.5, PHBII, XPH, Complete Psi, ToB, Untapped Potential and Hyperconsciousness1 and the fact I'm only half-way down swiping PF's feats and the current master feat document runs to 106 pages of three column 8-point calibri text (with only 3cm on combined margins and column space), I'm PRETTY SURE that the fighters aren't going to be struggling for choice. Except maybe decision paralysis...

I mean, like, we're probably talking the bulk of feats from two editions, here...!



1Aka, the only books that I have not copied feats out of in their entirity out of the other completes, planar handbook, libris mortis, draconomicon, BoVD, BoED, Frostburn, Sandstorm, Heroes of Battle, Seafarer's handbook)

[Psyren]

Not quite; they will now get one combat and one normal feat at level 1, and then a combat feat every even level and a bonus feat every odd level (plus now weapon training and armour training at the odd levels).

(Before, they got a combat feat only at first, a combat feat every even level and a bonus feat at every odd level starting at 3rd.)

Your use of "bonus feat" is what's confusing me. Characters get regular feats every odd level, not bonus ones. So a normal PF fighter gets a feat every level because the bonus ones are even and the regular ones are odd, and they get both at 1st-level.

When you say "bonus feat every odd level", is that in addition to the regular odd feat, or are you using that to reference the regular odd feat?



Stamina training isn't (there is just a limit to how much I'm prepared to put in, and having to deal with that as well...), weapon training is; armour matery I simply have not bothered with on the basis I'm 99% sure no-one would ever take it.

I understand, but I'd still encourage you to think about it some more. If I'm reading you correctly and they're truly getting two feats every odd level, these are great options to spend them on, certainly better than many of the other options they could be taking. Yes, 3.5 + 3pp is a huge haul, but Sturgeon's Law still applies. Though it's possible that your slew of houserules makes some of them more attractive than I'm accounting for :smalltongue:

[ngilop]

Until you give access to feats that are equal of 6th level spells just giving a fighter feats isn't going to significantly increase his power, and not even have an impact on a fighter's versatility. At the end of the day it is still going to be ' I roll a d20 to attack, an dnow I roll a dX+y for damage" just like the last trillions times.


My usual when this comes up.


AT the very least. mundanes need the following types of actions

ways to affect all 3 saves
ways to cause different status effects (dazed, stunned, paralyzed, bleed etc)
ways to be able to use all 5 types of actions: full, move, standard, swift, immediate
ways to interact and affect the world outside of combat
ways to make combat more efficient for them than others in the case of fighters
way to do more than just damage HP, give them some kind of ability damage attacks


I did a couple fighter fixes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318268-My-Latest-big-project!-(-a-big-deal-fighter-fix)) both in 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424466-My-Third-Fighter-fix-trying-something-new) and pathfinder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568764-Pathfinder-Fighter-Re-Tool). Take a look at my designs and the philosophy behind them then try better to make mundanes better, hopefully, by not making them less useful and allowing fantastical heroes to actually BE fantastical.

ALSO: required reading (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276366-The-Fighter-Problem-amp-How-to-Fix-It)

[AvatarVecna]

Have you heard of Spheres Of Power/Spheres Of Might? They're more or less attempts at approaching casting and noncasting via a non-Vancian, pseudo-feat based subsystem, where specializing in a particular sphere is encouraged, but branching out into others is allowed as well, and the system as a whole tends to push classes into a low T2/T3/high T4 area. The "pseudo-feats" description is particularly apt in Spheres Of Might, where each pseudo-feat starts out more or less as powerful as a standard PF feat, and then gradually improves as your BAB/skills improve; this moniker becomes even more apt for a small selection of these pseudo-feats, which are just "existing feats, but better", and if you take something on such a character that would grant you a specific bonus feat where there exists a pseudo-feat that does the job better, you get the superior pseudo-feat instead of the lame feat, no charge; similarly, you can spend feats on getting additional pseudo-feats.

I mention this because one of the classes in Spheres Of Might (the noncaster stuff) is the Conscript (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conscript). Conscript is a d10 HD, full BAB, good Fort/Ref, 4+Int SP/lvl, with a slightly better class skill list than fighter (including three floating class skills you get to choose). By default, it gets 11 bonus feats (at the same levels as fighter) and then 34 of these pseudo-feats; this works out to, effectively, getting 7 feats/pseudo-feats at lvl 1, and 2 at every other level...and that's just from the class. Additionally, you can trade a select number of feats and pseudo-feats for a wide variety of class features - and if you wanted to trade for armor+weapon specialization like PF fighter has, you'd need to give up 7 of your 11 bonus feats spread evenly throughout your level path. This effectively makes you a Fighter 20 with a good Ref save, extra skill points (including from Spheres, since some of them give free skill points), no Bravery, and 27 additional pseudo-feats. Conscript's extreme versatility, both in being able to mix-and-match so much within the pseudo-feat system, and by exchanging feats/pseudo-feats for other class features, has made it a pretty powerful, versatile T3 class.

What you've described here is not going as far as Conscript does. What Conscript does is not going as far as other Fighter reworks I've seen. However, I hold up Conscript and Spheres Of Might in particular because it's a fighter reworked designed as part of a much more comprehensive system overhaul - it's not just that fighters and fighter-equivalents got beefed up, but with Spheres Of Power, casters had their extreme versatility and power limited in exchange for a less punishing magic system that keeps their casters tied to whatever theme they're going for. Most homebrew/3pp is more or less built on the assumption that the game as a whole won't be adjusted beyond the inclusion of that particular homebrew, and this leads some people to create overpowered nonsense in an attempt to compete with casters, and it can become a problem because casters can be really bad or really good depending on how well they're built/played - but when they are designed to compete more with the community standard, it can start to leave the milder caster builds in the dust. If you've ever played in a high-power game where somebody requests excessive homebrew like Mythos or Hypermundane, you understand what I mean.

(...somebody like me. I do that thing I just said. I'm sorry. :smalltongue:)

[Aotrs Commander]

Your use of "bonus feat" is what's confusing me. Characters get regular feats every odd level, not bonus ones. So a normal PF fighter gets a feat every level because the bonus ones are even and the regular ones are odd, and they get both at 1st-level.

When you say "bonus feat every odd level", is that in addition to the regular odd feat, or are you using that to reference the regular odd feat?

Sorry, no, my bad! Crossed wires, you were talking about overall, I was talking about just from class.

So, yes, taken overall, a 3.Aotrs fighter gets over 20 levels 31 Feats (11 combat feats from class, 10 general from class, 10 general from level), +1 if human.



So, yeah. I think we're having a bit of disconnect on the level of most of you are like "but the fighter doesn't do much more stuff with just more feats," and I'm like "it isn't supposed to, it just does that stuff a little bit better without adding a load of stuff which nearly makes everyone a caster, like." It's supposed be mostly a Passive Numbers sort of class, in my intent.


Until you give access to feats that are equal of 6th level spells just giving a fighter feats isn't going to significantly increase his power, and not even have an impact on a fighter's versatility. At the end of the day it is still going to be ' I roll a d20 to attack, an dnow I roll a dX+y for damage" just like the last trillions times.


My usual when this comes up.



ALSO: required reading (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276366-The-Fighter-Problem-amp-How-to-Fix-It)

Fighter 3.Aotrs is explictly intended to be a class that can BE as simple as "I roll a D20 to attack, and I roll Dx+y for damage" because some people like to play something that simple (we have no less than two no-frills fighters in our level 16 party, notably whose players play maybe a couple of times per a year) - or when I want something simple for the opposition. At our paradigm, it has not been a problem (I mean, the feats thing is not distantly new, we've been playing it like that for... *checks* ...about ten years (so pre-dating PF)). (The play paradim also runs of 6-8 characters and a lot of classed enemies being the major threat, not monsters.) I started this thread merely because I just wanted to run it past someone (my group is very biddable, they're not much into rules-smithing, which great 'cos I can more or less run what I like, but it can be difficult by the same token on doing said rules-smithing) that I wasn't adding too much in the way of numbers, which, by almost complete concensus, it isn't.

(I'm also 100% fine with people dipping classes, and if I'm honest, I think I prefer base class dipping to PrC, so that's not a concern.)

I have considered and disgarded the idea of stuff like adding fighters as many feats as wizards have spells - or rolling the Warblade into fighter or vice versa - or stuff like giving them the brawler's martial flexibility in the explictly because that makes them a class which is inherently more than "swing sword, hit sword," which is what some of our group are happy to have sometimes. (I've only added the stuff noted in this thread because it is, ostensibly, passives.) Basically, a low-system mastery class, but avoiding the pitfalls of that, because the experienced players/DM are there to advise the players what to take so they won't become ineffective.

If someone wants to play something that is more than that, that's why I have painstakingly added PF (and rev-amped 3.5) classes to the point we have about 50 now, not counting archetypes. Basically, I want fighter to be (able to be) pretty KISS.




I understand, but I'd still encourage you to think about it some more. If I'm reading you correctly and they're truly getting two feats every odd level, these are great options to spend them on, certainly better than many of the other options they could be taking. Yes, 3.5 + 3pp is a huge haul, but Sturgeon's Law still applies. Though it's possible that your slew of houserules makes some of them more attractive than I'm accounting for :smalltongue:

One of the two level 16 fighters in the party with my Monk/cleric Naruto-ninja is a sword-and-board TWF and he's happy with being able to do that well. (One thing of note, TWF in 3.Aotrs has, since 3.0, always givien full damage on
the off-hand. Does that make it better than 2HF? I dunno, but you only need one feat to do THF and several to TWF, so I think it's fair..!)

Same player also played a fighter 16/rogue 1 ish knife man in one of our other games, who just threw TWF knives at people. A lot. (He only dipped into rogue, because at the time, we'd basically run out of more stuff he could have had to increase his ranged damage, so he dipped into rogue because he was exalted for exalted SA (on my recommendation). While that player was away, we had a new chap join us, who commented that while Dilan was effective, he was a bit boring - but that's what the original player liked to do. (Same player? Played a druid, and we had to remind him he could cast spells (we started at a level where he already had wildshape); nor is this chap a newbie, he's been playing only about a year if that less than I have!)

Can't be arsed to go upstairs to find his character sheet, though, so let's have an experiment with something that plays to my inhernetly laziness (he says after 3 months of solid rules work...)

*points back up to aforementioned 20th level fighter type*

Lemmee just slap this down. Stat block, pre-this update, around 2010-2011, from Converted 3.5 Dragon Mountain (16-low epic).

Harlichak (Pg 8)
Male Kobold Fighter 20
Small Humanoid (Goblin-Kin) Oooh, that's gonna cause some shouts of "heretic!"
HD 20D10+20 (220hp) Init +6 SPD 30’ SPACE 5/5
AC 40(41)/32(33)/34 (+1 Size, +6 Dex, +1 Natural, +7 Leather +5, +8 Heavy Wood Shield +5, +5 Deflection, +1 Weapon Supremacy, +1 Phalanx Fighting)
BAB/ GRAPPLE +20/+18
ATTACK +37 Flaming Short Sword +5 (D4+13+D6 Fire, 17-20) or +37 Composite Longbow +5 (+2 Str) (D6+13, 20/x3)
+37+37/+27/+22 Flaming Short Sword +5 (D4+13+D6 Fire, 17-20)
+37/+32/+27/+22 Composite Longbow +5 (+2 Str) (D6+13, 20/x3)
SQ Darkvision 60’, Light Sensitivity
SV Fort +12 Ref +19 Will +14 (+5 vrs fear)
Str 14 Dex 25 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 12 AL LE
Craft (Trapmaking) +4, Hide +11, Intimidate +23, Listen +8, Profession (Miner) +4, Search +4, Spot +8
Active Shield Defence, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Greater Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow), Greater Weapon Specialisation (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Specialisation (Longbow), Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Melee Evasion, Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing), Phalanx Fighting, Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing), Shield Specialisation (Heavy Shield), Shield Ward, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Weapon Specialisation (Longbow), Weapon Specialisation (Short Sword), Weapon Supremacy (Short Sword)
Skills: +2 racial on Craft (Trapmaking), Profession (Miner) and Search
CR 20
Light Sensitivity (Ex): Kobolds are Dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a Daylight spell.
Equipment: Small Flaming Short Sword +5, Small Dagger, Small Longbow +5 (24 Arrows), Small Leather Armour +5, Small Heavy Wood Shield +5, Ring of Protection +5


Post revision, let's see what we can do, 'cos now you've made me interested myself...

(Huh. 23 feats. Apparently I missed some at the time...)


1: 1 +1F(C) +1F: Dodge1, Weapon Focus (Shortsword), Weapon Finesse
2: 1F(C): Shield Specialisation Focus (Heavy Shield)
3: 1 +1F: Iron Will2, Shield Ward
4: 1F(C): Weapon Specialisation (Short Sword)
5: 1 +1F: Lightning Reflexes2, Phalanx Fighting3)[/I]
6: 1F(C): Deadly Agility
7: 1 +1F: Pirana Strike, Point Blank Shot (or Improved Shield Bash)
8: 1F(C): Greater Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
9: 1 +1F: Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing), Precise Shot (or TWF)
10: 1F(C): Weapon Focus (Longbow) (or Oversized TWF)
11: 1 +1F: Weapon Specialisation (Longbow), Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow) (or ITWF, GTWF)
12: 1F(C): Greater Weapon Specialisation (Short Sword)
13: 1 +1F: Combat Expertise, Greater Weapon Specialisation (Longbow) (or Perfect TWF4)
14: 1F(C): Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) (or Shield Charge)
15: 1 +1F: Improved Trip, Greater Trip
16: 1F(C): Driving Attack5
17: 1 +1F: Improved Critical (Shortsword), Tripping Strike
18: 1F(C): Weapon Supremacy
19: 1 +1F: Step Up, Following Step
20: 1F(C): Phalanx Defense

1Which is a flat +1 dodge bonus to AC.
2Feat special: does not add +2 to save, but changes base save to Good (2+1/2 fighter level)
3Now a teamwork feat (though the initial +1 AC you get doesn't require allies).
4That's just a feat, not an entire wasted PrC or something.
5Sure, it's full-round action (currently), but +22 instead of +2 is enough to send someone flying quite far (nominal CMB of 22+20+1+1+2+4+5 = 55! Probably still limited to M plus creatures, but still, somepne's over the horizon!) Dang, that's actually pretty potent in this environment!)


Harlichak (Pg 8)
Male Kobold Fighter 20
Small Humanoid (Goblin-Kin)
HD 20D10+20 (220hp) Init +6 SPD 30’ SPACE 5/5
AC 45/33/38 (+1 Size, +6 Dex, +1 Natural, +11 Breastplate +5, +8 Heavy Wood Shield +5, +5 Deflection, +1 Weapon Supremacy, +1 Phalanx Fighting, +1 Dodge)
SQ Armour Training 4 (-4 ACP, +4 Max Dex), Armour Mastery, Bravery +5, Damage Reduction 5/-, Weapon Training (Light Blades (+4, Fighter's Tactics), Bows (+3, Fighter's Tactics)), Weapon Mastery (Short Sword)
BAB/ GRAPPLE +20/+18
ATTACK +41 Flaming Short Sword +5 (D4+22+D6 Fire, 19-20/x3) or +40 Composite Longbow +5 (+2 Str) (D6+16, 20/x3)
+41/+41/+31/+26 Flaming Short Sword +5 (D4+22+D6 Fire, 19-20/x3)
+40/+35/+30/+25 Composite Longbow +5 (+2 Str) (D6+16, 20/x3)
SQ Darkvision 60’, Light Sensitivity
SV Fort +12 Ref +19 Will +14
Str 14 Dex 25 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 12 AL LE
Craft (Trapmaking) +4, Intimidate +24, Profession (Miner) +4, Perception +22, Search +146, Sense Motive +12, Stealth +31
Feats see above
Skills: +2 racial on Craft (Trapmaking), Profession (Miner) and Search
CR 20
Light Sensitivity (Ex): Kobolds are Dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a Daylight spell.
Equipment: Small Flaming Short Sword +5, Small Dagger, Small Longbow +5 (24 Arrows), Small Leather Armour +5, Small Heavy Wood Shield +5, Ring of Protection +5


6Yes, that's stilla thing in 3.A, though now better defined and functionally a bit like Investigation appears to be used on the 5E podcasts I've been watching. Perception is looking/hering only, searching means actually picking stuff up and prodding it 'n stuff.


There, little bit better; he's got a couple of tricks up his sleave (phalanx stuff because he has like, 30 dudes outside his room to buddy with). Keep him being a fair shot with his bow as a back up, or go full TWF/shield bash and add stuff like shield charge (but I've learned Always Have A Ranged Weapon)

As an experiment, to see where he could go, despite keeping largely to the general theme, interesting. Driving attack is the interesting one there, you could set a whole build around buffing that.

I make no claims this would feats in a particularly playable order (it's just in a legal one!), 'cos I have spent far too much time already on an aside. But an interesting experiment nontheless.

(3.A also would allow you to swap out weapon mastery for a capstone that lets you load, like five feats like spells, almost, with an added ability to do a bit of not-quite-martial flexibility to swap them for more as well.)



One other little tricks you could do (and my stat points are more than generous enough to let you do it) would be to take Hidden Talent at level 1, and then get loads of psionic feats. (3.A fighters are also allowed to take Martial Study 3+fighter level times, so that's another possibility one could splash into... One feels you could make am interesting unarmed fighter, though granted, a dip into monk or brawler (or unarmed swordsage or sekkou in 3.A) would be probably something to consider).

Actually, if anything, this has made me realise that with weapon training, some of the onus is off weapon focus line, since you can get Numbers with that, and that means you could go for a CMB sort of build, as you have enough feats to get more than one or two tricks.




Have you heard of Spheres Of Power/Spheres Of Might? They're more or less attempts at approaching casting and noncasting via a non-Vancian, pseudo-feat based subsystem, where specializing in a particular sphere is encouraged, but branching out into others is allowed as well, and the system as a whole tends to push classes into a low T2/T3/high T4 area. The "pseudo-feats" description is particularly apt in Spheres Of Might, where each pseudo-feat starts out more or less as powerful as a standard PF feat, and then gradually improves as your BAB/skills improve; this moniker becomes even more apt for a small selection of these pseudo-feats, which are just "existing feats, but better", and if you take something on such a character that would grant you a specific bonus feat where there exists a pseudo-feat that does the job better, you get the superior pseudo-feat instead of the lame feat, no charge; similarly, you can spend feats on getting additional pseudo-feats.

I mention this because one of the classes in Spheres Of Might (the noncaster stuff) is the Conscript (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conscript). Conscript is a d10 HD, full BAB, good Fort/Ref, 4+Int SP/lvl, with a slightly better class skill list than fighter (including three floating class skills you get to choose). By default, it gets 11 bonus feats (at the same levels as fighter) and then 34 of these pseudo-feats; this works out to, effectively, getting 7 feats/pseudo-feats at lvl 1, and 2 at every other level...and that's just from the class. Additionally, you can trade a select number of feats and pseudo-feats for a wide variety of class features - and if you wanted to trade for armor+weapon specialization like PF fighter has, you'd need to give up 7 of your 11 bonus feats spread evenly throughout your level path. This effectively makes you a Fighter 20 with a good Ref save, extra skill points (including from Spheres, since some of them give free skill points), no Bravery, and 27 additional pseudo-feats. Conscript's extreme versatility, both in being able to mix-and-match so much within the pseudo-feat system, and by exchanging feats/pseudo-feats for other class features, has made it a pretty powerful, versatile T3 class.

What you've described here is not going as far as Conscript does. What Conscript does is not going as far as other Fighter reworks I've seen. However, I hold up Conscript and Spheres Of Might in particular because it's a fighter reworked designed as part of a much more comprehensive system overhaul - it's not just that fighters and fighter-equivalents got beefed up, but with Spheres Of Power, casters had their extreme versatility and power limited in exchange for a less punishing magic system that keeps their casters tied to whatever theme they're going for. Most homebrew/3pp is more or less built on the assumption that the game as a whole won't be adjusted beyond the inclusion of that particular homebrew, and this leads some people to create overpowered nonsense in an attempt to compete with casters, and it can become a problem because casters can be really bad or really good depending on how well they're built/played - but when they are designed to compete more with the community standard, it can start to leave the milder caster builds in the dust. If you've ever played in a high-power game where somebody requests excessive homebrew like Mythos or Hypermundane, you understand what I mean.

(...somebody like me. I do that thing I just said. I'm sorry. :smalltongue:)

In short, yes, I am aware of it and the path of war, but I am not, at this point, considering adding them to 3.A. Especially spehres of power, because it essentially seems to basically replace EVERYTHING and I definitely don't want to do that. PoW, being from a first glance, above the line of ToB (and thus would require a complete re-work of ToB stuff, since I do NOT remove stuff), and that is an undertaking that is outside the time I'm prepared to commit to it (having already done three month's worth of work already...)

The conscript seems to have essentially the same "problem" as the brawler, from that - it is explictly a class that requires a level of system mastery to get the most out of (because all tghe moving parts to look at) and that's exactly the opposite of what I intend fighter to be.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm not presenting Conscript as a sign of what a Fighter should be (although that is certainly my opinion), it's more addressing thebquestion in a kinda roundabout way: you asked if this Fighter rework is "broken", but Conscript is fine and it's arguably a good deal more powerful and it's not consodered broken, so what you've got will be fine.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm not presenting Conscript as a sign of what a Fighter should be (although that is certainly my opinion), it's more addressing thebquestion in a kinda roundabout way: you asked if this Fighter rework is "broken", but Conscript is fine and it's arguably a good deal more powerful and it's not consodered broken, so what you've got will be fine.

Ah, sorry, didn't twig that's what you were saying.

I was, like 99.99% sure what I'm doing was going to be fine, but sometimes you just need to ask the obvious question just in case there's an equally obvious answer you didn't think about.

I mean, there may come a point where I might look harder at spheres and path of war, I'm not, like "never in my games rarg" it's just like, kind of too much effort for me to do it this pass. (I mean, I thought I was basically DONE with all the rules stuff, hurrah, just the past through the feats to go, but now I've, like, got to work out what to do with CMB/CMD and stuff AND then adjust my entire set of bestiaries...!)

[Psyren]

Without meaning to offend, there's no way I'm reading all of that :smalltongue: I'm just glad I more clearly understand what you're going for.

Yes, I agree the Fighter works fine as a "passive class." After all, if you want maneuvers/martial casting then there are other classes for that. I still think that 31 feats gives plenty of room to pick up Stamina and AAT, but it's ultimately your choice.

[Elricaltovilla]

In short, yes, I am aware of it and the path of war, but I am not, at this point, considering adding them to 3.A. Especially spehres of power, because it essentially seems to basically replace EVERYTHING and I definitely don't want to do that. PoW, being from a first glance, above the line of ToB (and thus would require a complete re-work of ToB stuff, since I do NOT remove stuff), and that is an undertaking that is outside the time I'm prepared to commit to it (having already done three month's worth of work already...)

The conscript seems to have essentially the same "problem" as the brawler, from that - it is explictly a class that requires a level of system mastery to get the most out of (because all tghe moving parts to look at) and that's exactly the opposite of what I intend fighter to be.

Just as a point of clarity, and because I am one of the PoW:E writers, the Conscript and the Brawler are not Path of War material.

The Conscript is from Spheres of Might which is an entirely different sort of rework of the martial system by a different publisher than Path of War.

The Brawler is a Pathfinder 1st party class by Paizo themselves. The Brawler is only related to Path of War by an archetype DSP wrote for the class to give it PoW maneuvers.

[Aotrs Commander]

Just as a point of clarity, and because I am one of the PoW:E writers, the Conscript and the Brawler are not Path of War material.

The Conscript is from Spheres of Might which is an entirely different sort of rework of the martial system by a different publisher than Path of War.

The Brawler is a Pathfinder 1st party class by Paizo themselves. The Brawler is only related to Path of War by an archetype DSP wrote for the class to give it PoW maneuvers.

Should have paragraphed that sentence, really. Yes, I'm aware they are all from different sources (which may not, in practise, be compatible with each other or everything else, but that's an exercise to look at at another time).

I mention the brawler in relation since it is a class that requires a good deal of system mastery (i.e. pouring over the feats, more so, I think, than even spells, to know what you can get and what would be best now) to be able to get the best out of it, and AvatarVecna's description (and the half-glance I looked at before when someone mentioned it seemed to suggest it is within (though likely not as severe) the same sort of position.

[Elricaltovilla]

It's fine. I just don't want anyone skimming through to get mixed up on who writes what. It doesn't happen often, but I have gotten people message me questions about Spheres material before.