Translating a Perception-based Rogue character back to 3.5

[Madara]

Hey Everyone,

My DM recently had us take our characters from 5e to 3.5 and try to transcribe them. We're 7th level

I have a fellow player who is reaching out to me now after our first session with 3.5 and realized his character kinda sucks in combat. Originally he was a rogue, but the real build help needed is capturing the spirit of the character.

How can we build a

Martial Character
That's Light-Armored and Rogue-like
Who doesn't cast spells (or casts few spells)
Edit- Maybe uses one or two maneuvers at most- keep this simple to manage in combat. The player is the type to get some choice paralysis.
That finds weaknesses in their enemies and strikes big
The Race is Elf


Originally the character was one who focused on observation skills and would use perception rolls in order to get off some sort of attack boost. I'm currently toying with some sort of Iajutsu Focus use?

I'm poking around and doing some research but I'm hoping someone has a similar concept lying around somewhere or knows a good Iron Chef round to cheat off of.

[Arkain]

Swordsage, focusing on Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand. Find that weakness, abuse it. Otherwise, be a stealthy, observant martial character. If you so desire, consider a couple levels in Eternal Blade if you ever go to the highest levels (cannot be completed if you enter as a Swordsage, though, so mechanically speaking, it's probably not worth it in the end).

Eh, it seems as if Swordsages only get Listen as a class skill. I was pretty sure that if not Search, at least Spot would be part of the deal. Maybe a moment for cross-class ranks or a bit of DM convincing? Or maybe finding a way to gain Spot/Search as a class skill, ideally without dipping. If you were human you may have gotten away with Able Learner (which, again, could be negotiated with the DM) and maybe a dip in Rogue/Factotum, if you really want those skills.

[Madara]

Swordsage, focusing on Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand. Find that weakness, abuse it. Otherwise, be a stealthy, observant martial character. If you so desire, consider a couple levels in Eternal Blade if you ever go to the highest levels (cannot be completed if you enter as a Swordsage, though, so mechanically speaking, it's probably not worth it in the end).

I should've just been prepared for this-

The only reason for no-magic is to keep it simple enough for a casual newer player. Any chance we can make this work without maneuvers?

[Arkain]

While writing my edit I was actually thinking about Factotum, who only gets a handful of spells, really, but it's probably a bit tricky to make it work for a newer player. Maneuvers should be easy, once the system has become somewhat familiar.

Other than that you could try the usual Rogue optimization tricks, I guess, but a lot of those may involve UMD, which puts us right back into magic territory. In terms of class features, there's at least the penetrating strike one to get around sneak attack immunity and then there's the problem with full attacking and pulling sneaks off in the first place. ... err, actually, Scout? The usual Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter combo might work nicely, it's quite a bit of a skill monkey, kind of martial, keeps some of the rogue flair and works with all kinds of combat styles.

[liquidformat]

Well, to start with google Rogue handbook a fist full of d6 it should help a lot on any build you try and make.

Beyond that for a melee rogue there are some basics that work well, typically you would do something like rogue 3 (with penetrating Strike ACF)/ Swashbuckler 17 or Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 15/sword sage 2 taking the sword sage levels around ECL 9-11 to optimize maneuver/stance choices. the rogue/swashbuckler build focuses on taking daring outlaw feat which allows your swashbuckler and rogue levels stack for sneak attack. Taking Shadow Blade feat for dex to damage, two weapon fighting for more attacks, and knowledge devotion for extra damage with a knowledge check (you can also take educated to get all knowledge skills as class skills for all classes you take). besides that taking craven also gives you a very nice punch to your sneak attack damage.

If you have a nice dm who doesn't like nerfing perfectly good classes you can look at Invisible Blade from complete warrior which allows you to use bluff in combat to feint and get sneak attack. There was an errata that only allows feinting once per round if your DM ignores that then it is very nice class.

[Psyren]

Could you get PF's Unchained Rogue (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/) instead of the 3.5 one? This gets you some of the missing 5e pieces like Dex to damage or the ability to sneak attack foes in the dark without needing darkvision baseline. The Rogue Talents will give decent abilities for them to look forward to without needing to learn the whole maneuver system as well.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The Knowledge Devotion feat seems fairly in line with the character concept, and would provide some decent damage. Craven and Staggering Strike are two other Rogue classics, but with straight Rogue you won't be able to get the latter until 9th. Maybe a Daring Outlaw build (Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler X + Daring Outlaw feat to make both classes stack for Sneak Attack)?

[zlefin]

Hey Everyone,

My DM recently had us take our characters from 5e to 3.5 and try to transcribe them. We're 7th level

I have a fellow player who is reaching out to me now after our first session with 3.5 and realized his character kinda sucks in combat. Originally he was a rogue, but the real build help needed is capturing the spirit of the character.

How can we build a

Martial Character
That's Light-Armored and Rogue-like
Who doesn't cast spells (or casts few spells)
Edit- Maybe uses one or two maneuvers at most- keep this simple to manage in combat. The player is the type to get some choice paralysis.
That finds weaknesses in their enemies and strikes big
The Race is Elf


Originally the character was one who focused on observation skills and would use perception rolls in order to get off some sort of attack boost. I'm currently toying with some sort of Iajutsu Focus use?

I'm poking around and doing some research but I'm hoping someone has a similar concept lying around somewhere or knows a good Iron Chef round to cheat off of.


While it's rather far afield, being 3rd party pathfinder; the spheres of might Scout sphere sounds a lot like what the char may want; it has a bunch of stuff that keys off of observation skills/perception.
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/scout

[Piggy Knowles]

I know you said no maneuvers and/or limited maneuvers, but based on what you’ve described, I recommend:

Elf, Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Swordsage 2

ACFs:
Hit-and-run fighter (Drow of the Underdark - loses medium and heavy armor proficiency, deals +Dex to damage against flat-footed foes, gets +2 initiative)
Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape - lose trap sense, gain the ability to deal half your sneak attack damage to foes that are ordinarily immune when flanking)


Level-up order
1 Rogue1- Aereni Focus (iaijutsu focus)
2 Fighter1- Weapon Finesse
3 Fighter2- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (gnomish quickrazor), Craven
4 Rogue2-
5 Swordsage1-
6 Swordsage2- Shadow Hand
7 Rogue3-

Maneuvers known:
Sapphire nightmare blade (make a concentration check with a DC of opponent’s AC, if you succeed, your opponent is flat-footed for this attack and you deal +1d6 damage)
Wolf fang strike (attack twice at a -2 penalty)
Sudden leap (swift action, make a jump check and move that distance)
Distracting ember (swift action, summon a small fire elemental that doesn’t attack but can provide flanking)
Moment of perfect mind (immediate action, make a concentration check in place of a Will saving throw)
Cloak of deception (swift action, turn invisible until the end of the round)
Shadow jaunt (teleport up to 50’)


Stances:
Child of shadow (if you move at least 10 feet during your turn, you gain concealment against all melee/ranged attacks)
Hunter’s sense (gain the Scent special ability)


This all looks complicated, but I promise it’s really straightforward.

You’ll end up with +5 BAB. You wield a gnomish quickrazor, which is basically a butterfly knife, and which you can draw or sheathe as a free action. You have +Dex to attack and damage, and deal your Dex to damage again if your opponent is flat-footed.

Aereni Focus gives you iaijutsu focus as a class skill and gives you a +3 bonus on it. With 10 ranks, that means you’ll have at least a +13. Even without investing in Charisma, add on a masterwork tool and you’ll have at least a +15, meaning you’re guaranteed to do +2d6 bonus damage on a roll of a 1, and you’ll do +3d6 on a roll of 5 or better.

You have three ways of guaranteeing your enemy is flat-footed: acting before them in the initiative count (and as you’re extremely focused on Dex and have bonuses from swordsage and hit-and-run tactics fighter, you’ll likely have a very high initiative, probably in the neighborhood of +9), sapphire nightmare blade and cloak of deception. You can also summon your own flanker as a swift action if one of your party members isn’t around to do it for you. When an enemy is flat-footed, you deal iaijutsu focus damage, sneak attack damage, Craven damage and bonus damage from being a hit-and-run tactics fighter.

The maneuvers may seem complicated, but it’s pretty straightforward: always prepare at least sapphire nightmare blade and cloak of deception. Round one, approach and attack someone who hasn’t yet acted. Since they are flat-footed until they act, you’ll get all your bonus damage. Round two, attack someone using sapphire nightmare blade or cloak of deception to guarantee that they are flat-footed again. Round three, do the same thing with whichever maneuver you didn’t use last time. Simple and effective, and you don’t need to worry much about your other maneuvers or choice paralysis.

To get some idea of damage, let’s say you have a Dex of 22 at this stage. Approach an enemy and hit them with a sapphire nightmare blade. If you make your concentration check (and you should, since your concentration will be in the +15 range), the attack will do 1d4+1d6 (sapphire nightmare blade) +2d6 (sneak attack) +7 (craven) +6 (Dex, from Shadow Hand) +6 (Dex again, from hit and run tactics fighter) +2d6-6d6 (iaijutsu focus), plus more from any magical enhancements you have. Assuming an average roll on iaijutsu focus, you can expect to deal 1d4+7d6+19 damage, or an average of 46 damage. You won’t be breaking any records, but it’s good consistent damage that is hard to avoid.

Good luck!

[16bearswutIdo]

If you're trying to keep things simple, but want them to be able to "exploit weaknesses" why not just a feint-based rogue? Seems like it matches up pretty well. Fighter 1/Rogue X, fighter for martial weapons + feat, just take combat expertise + improved feint. I know there's other prestige classes based around feinting, so maybe take a look into those?

Feats would be like combat expertise, improved feint, weapon finesse, etc.

[Troacctid]

If it's the 5e archetype I'm thinking of, it uses Insight, not Perception, to get its bonus. There's actually a feat for that in this edition: Combat Intuition, from Complete Adventurer. The Urban Savant prestige class, from Cityscape, would also be a good fit, although it's a spellcasting class.

[RNightstalker]

Hey Everyone,

My DM recently had us take our characters from 5e to 3.5 and try to transcribe them. We're 7th level

I have a fellow player who is reaching out to me now after our first session with 3.5 and realized his character kinda sucks in combat. Originally he was a rogue, but the real build help needed is capturing the spirit of the character.

How can we build a

Martial Character
That's Light-Armored and Rogue-like
Who doesn't cast spells (or casts few spells)
Edit- Maybe uses one or two maneuvers at most- keep this simple to manage in combat. The player is the type to get some choice paralysis.
That finds weaknesses in their enemies and strikes big
The Race is Elf


Originally the character was one who focused on observation skills and would use perception rolls in order to get off some sort of attack boost. I'm currently toying with some sort of Iajutsu Focus use?

I'm poking around and doing some research but I'm hoping someone has a similar concept lying around somewhere or knows a good Iron Chef round to cheat off of.

You may want to consider a Ranger. Full BAB, 6+IQ skill points, and there are ACF's for spellcasting and Animal Companion to further simplify the character. It is a natural fit for an Elf, the Favored enemy checks the weaknesses box.

[Eladrinblade]

Straight rogue. Choices are:

-two weapon fighting melee
-two weapon fighting thrown (but also melee, just less damage/worse crits)
-longbow

Ranged is generally worse, but better once you get improved invisibility from a caster buddy. You definitely want good stealth and initiative with this route, because going first nets you the most sneak attacks.

Two weapon fighting with thrown weapons nets you the most attacks period (which is good, because more attacks = more sneak attack damage) but it requires the most feats and your thrown weapons themselves won't be as good as other weapons.

Melee is the most reliable, but also the most dangerous, since you'll be up close to enemies. It's harder to be in position for melee than ranged. You can get sneak attacks from flanking, feinting (generally not the greatest idea), bonuses vs prone enemies, and a few other benefits. If you go this route, see if your DM will allow the "backstab" feat from dragon magazine.

High dex, decent int, the rest is up to you.

If you think you can handle more choices/splat material, and your DM allows the Tome of Battle, it's generally going to be the optimal choice (swordsage, that is).