OOTS #1188 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic.

Since I know everyone is asking, this is the second-to-last for this book; the final strip will be posted Monday.

Also, expect an ornament/t-shirt announcement tomorrow-ish.

[Resileaf]

There is nothing in this page that I do not like. Bravo.

[Forikroder]

oh right, the deadly disease

really wonder who V is sending to

[Psyren]

Roy getting tucked in by his Bag of Tricks is everything :smallbiggrin:

Belkar's totally-not-character-growth-you-nerd continues I see.

[NNescio]

Guess the Belkster won't be dying from disease.

[Zonkerbl]

Roy getting tucked in by his Bag of Tricks is everything :smallbiggrin:

Belkar's totally-not-character-growth-you-nerd continues I see.


Oh is that what that is.

Cute!

[Fyraltari]

Everything in here is so cute.

I think V is Sending to Inkyrius.

How did Durkon know, though?

[Ruck]

Since I know everyone is asking, this is the second-to-last for this book; the final strip will be posted Monday.

Nailed it!


Heh, I've been guessing "3-5 strips" for a while because I had no idea how many of these type airship strips we'd get. Now that we've had two, I might revise my guess to 1-3.

Also, kudos to anyone who guessed that Sphinx Pox would come up again. :smallbiggrin:


oh right, the deadly disease

really wonder who V is sending to

I'd guess either O-Chul / Lien or Serini. I don't think anyone else really makes sense.

[ben-zayb]

Haley should totally get a training montage...

If Elan was there she'll no doubt have a training montage. Come on!

[Forikroder]

Everything in here is so cute.

I think V is Sending to Inkyrius.

How did Durkon know, though?

maybe had a part in it

[2D8HP]

No Sphinx Pox?

What the Hel!

So many pixels valiantly fought the idle speculation wars in vain!

[hroþila]

Gotta have to disagree with Elan about the early stuff. And lol at the Sphinx Pox thing.

As for V's Sending: Serini? Lien & O-Chul? Hinjo? Inkyrius for the out-of-left-field option? I'm going to go with Lien & O-Chul - we'll see them in the next strip and they'll report that Team Evil has located the Gate and that DUN DUN DUN.

[AutomatedTeller]

Man, the animals tucking in Roy is just an awesome little touch. How did they get out, though? Can they just emerge when they want? Or did Roy drunkenly take 2 out?

Love the whole comic :)

[redzimmer]

I have a sense of creeping dread for Lien and O-Chul.

Them lying dead and a swirly-eyed MiTD are just the sort of WHAM splash page I expect to see as a cliffhanger.

[Resileaf]

How did Durkon know, though?

Being on the front seat of Greg and Hel's conversations probably has something to do with it.

[Fyraltari]

Being on the front seat of Greg and Hel's conversations probably has something to do with it.

But Durkon* wasn't part of that conversation. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)

[locksmith of lo]

sphinx pox open plot resolved! :smallbiggrin:

[Resileaf]

But Durkon* wasn't part of that conversation. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)

I'm sure that in the myriad conversations Greg and Hel had, the topic of everyone being afflicted with Sphynx Pox came up at least once.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Nice touch with the remains of the explosion still on V's desk. :smallsmile:

[Sylian]

Belkar actually caring about the plot? That's interesting, I wonder if it's going to come up or if it's just a way to showcase character development? My guess is the former, but it could also be the latter.

[Forikroder]

But Durkon* wasn't part of that conversation. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)

she may have mentioned it at an earlier point so that both of them were aware of that possible factor

[Grey Watcher]

Well, that's the "OMG, what about Sphinx Pox!?!?" threads all sorted out then.

If Elan is going through the whole strip line-by-line, it's going to be a LOOOOOOOONG story.


really wonder who V is sending to


I think V is Sending to Inkyrius.

I had actually thought he was Sending on behalf of Blackwing, since Nale is the only person we've ever seen have trouble with the word limit before. But on the other hand I have no idea who Blackwing would want to contact. But on the other other hand, V's seemed pretty well resolved to leave Inkyrius and the kids behind so as not to endanger them further, so contacting them again at this point also feels off.

[Hamste]

Durkon could also have just made the heal check to notice that people all had the same specific disease and figured the goddess of disease did.

[Peelee]

I'd guess either O-Chul / Lien or Serini. I don't think anyone else really makes sense.

V's spouse, is my guess.

But on the other other hand, V's seemed pretty well resolved to leave Inkyrius and the kids behind so as not to endanger them further, so contacting them again at this point also feels off.

V made their decision before fully realizing the enormity of what they did, though, which may well change how they feel about contacting them. Even if only to come clean to them as well.

[Schroeswald]

Like 50 callbacks packed into one strip, great!
also to the people who keep saying it, Lien and O-Chul aren’t dead, they still have plot to go and they are important and the death isn’t really related to their choices

[thereaper]

So much brilliance there

[RatElemental]

V could also be contacting Inkyrius just to offer some sort of closure beyond signing the divorce papers and not contesting them. An apology, coupled with a goodbye, perhaps.

[Angrith]

I love that Roy deployed his critters to take care of his drunken self, an excellent callback to the bag being made by drunk wizards to begin with. Also, Belkar cares about the story! Woot!

[Frozenstep]

Love it. I wonder if Elan's version the story will end up having some interesting differences from what actually happened. Haley being set up for some future melee combat...and I love the animals tucking in Roy. It's kind of funny to be reminded he still has that bag of tricks.

[Vessyra]

I was wondering when Minrah was going get get caught up to speed on everything. I suppose having the bard tell the story makes as much sense as anything else, but if the story is being told through Elan's eyes, I have to wonder how many discrepancies it will hold.

:elan: "And then Roy and I jumped away from Dorukan's Gate, and he loved it! And then also I Freya tried booting Banjo out of the pantheon, so I had to call the Puppet Civil Liberties Union. Also, no-one seems to like coffee; I offered a coffee machine for worshiping Banjo, but no-one wanted it. Also, have you heard the wise words of Banjo the wise?".

[hamishspence]

Nice to see Andi being civil for once.

[Forikroder]

I was wondering when Minrah was going get get caught up to speed on everything. I suppose having the bard tell the story makes as much sense as anything else, but if the story is being told through Elan's eyes, I have to wonder how many discrepancies it will hold.

i think we can trust a bard to recite a story

[Crœsos]

I had actually thought he was Sending on behalf of Blackwing, since Nale is the only person we've ever seen have trouble with the word limit before. But on the other hand I have no idea who Blackwing would want to contact. But on the other other hand, V's seemed pretty well resolved to leave Inkyrius and the kids behind so as not to endanger them further, so contacting them again at this point also feels off.

I had also thought Blackwing was the one who would be using the Sending. Since Blackwing is holding the scroll I figured it was either a message on his part or that V wanted to communicate with someone through an anonymous proxy.

[Squire Doodad]

Each panel represents one character. Thus, it is checking up with...
1. Bandanna
2. V
3. Haley
4. Minrah
5. Belkar
6. Elan
7. Durkon
8. Roy
9. The single greatest character ever.

[Forikroder]

I had also thought Blackwing was the one who would be using the Sending. Since Blackwing is holding the scroll I figured it was either a message on his part or that V wanted to communicate with someone through an anonymous proxy.

pretty sure it was just for writing down the message so they could figure out how best to use the 25 words

[Squire Doodad]

I had also thought Blackwing was the one who would be using the Sending. Since Blackwing is holding the scroll I figured it was either a message on his part or that V wanted to communicate with someone through an anonymous proxy.

Honestly, V would probably use to many words and hit the word count before he actually said anything unless someone's being his editor.

[Fyraltari]

Belkar just demonstrated his greatest progress towards Goodness ever: he knocked before coming in!
Surely, soon will come the day when he ceases to be CN and becomes CG, on the very day where he will have learned to wait for the answer before coming in.

[Crusher]

I guess Sphinx Pox won’t be wiping everyone out after all.

[Peelee]

Love it. I wonder if Elan's version the story will end up having some interesting differences from what actually happened. Haley being set up for some future melee combat...and I love the animals tucking in Roy. It's kind of funny to be reminded he still has that bag of tricks.


I was wondering when Minrah was going get get caught up to speed on everything. I suppose having the bard tell the story makes as much sense as anything else, but if the story is being told through Elan's eyes, I have to wonder how many discrepancies it will hold.

:elan: "And then Roy and I jumped away from Dorukan's Gate, and he loved it! And then also I Freya tried booting Banjo out of the pantheon, so I had to call the Puppet Civil Liberties Union. Also, no-one seems to like coffee; I offered a coffee machine for worshiping Banjo, but no-one wanted it. Also, have you heard the wise words of Banjo the wise?".

....jinx!

I choose not to enforce the rules of jinx.

[factotum]

I guess Sphinx Pox won’t be wiping everyone out after all.

Really not sure why that was ever in doubt, given that "All the protagonists die of disease, the world ends" is pretty much the equivalent of "Rocks fall, everybody dies" as far as a denouement is concerned.

[TwistedSultan]

with Belkar's character development, I wonder if his "death" is the figurative end of who he was before. and he now lives as a completely different person after Durkon's sacrifice

[UnintensifiedFa]

I think V is Sending to Inkyrius.


God, I hope so. Inkyrius + Vaarsuvius was a relationship that I absolutely loved. Vaarsuvius was this self-consumed elf who seemed to care only about great arcane power and who we believed would never love anyone (or thing) besides magic, and once V obtains this arcane power V uses it for their spouse, not to dominate the world, not to find more arcane power, not to resolve plot-points (at-first), but to save Inkyrius and the children. V only stopped the mindless (or mindful, by the Fiends' interpretation) rage when she saw how it was affected his loved ones. She loved Inkyrius, and I feel like V suspended rational thought for them, something V doesn't take upon lightly.

[Squire Doodad]

with Belkar's character development, I wonder if his "death" is the figurative end of who he was before. and he now lives as a completely different person after Durkon's sacrifice

"Last breath ever" makes this less likely, but I do like the idea of subverting "redemption=death", particularly for a character like Belkar.

[Ruck]

V's spouse, is my guess.


V made their decision before fully realizing the enormity of what they did, though, which may well change how they feel about contacting them. Even if only to come clean to them as well.

I suppose it's possible, but I still lean towards V leaving well enough alone for now, with the importance of the mission taking firs priority.

What I really don't understand is that apparently Blackwing is composing the message, which doesn't really fit with any theory I have about where the Sending is going.

[LasVegasLawyer]

oh right, the deadly disease

really wonder who V is sending to

Pretty sure V is capable of composing a Sending without needing Blackwing to write it down. Wonder if it's Blackwing that's Sending?

"Raven King: I obtained shiny bauble, completing my lifelong Quest, and formally request being allowed to return and find mate. Also, End of World incoming."

[Syncrogti]

Belkar actually caring about the plot? That's interesting, I wonder if it's going to come up or if it's just a way to showcase character development? My guess is the former, but it could also be the latter.

Does he care about the plot or is he interested in the girl.....

[Forikroder]

with Belkar's character development, I wonder if his "death" is the figurative end of who he was before. and he now lives as a completely different person after Durkon's sacrifice

the oracle was very clear on him being dead dead

[Ruck]

Honestly, V would probably use to many words and hit the word count before he actually said anything unless someone's being his editor.

I was thinking about this since we've seen Vaarsuvius use Sending effectively before, but here also, V is reading off a piece of paper (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html), which may just mean they have to compose their messages in advance for that reason you said.

[diplomancer]

Honestly, V would probably use to many words and hit the word count before he actually said anything unless someone's being his editor.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it. V initial message probably had around 250 words. He should research a stronger version of the spell.

[Squire Doodad]

Does he care about the plot or is he interested in the girl.....

Plot. He's realized that there is value in one's own story aside from badassery, and that he wants to hear it again because he probably missed a lot. I'd wager he was going to go in and ask Elan something (possibly about their adventures) and since Minrah was already there he asked he could stay to listen instead of asking him to start from the beginning.

He might also like Minrah, but it's too early to tell and little to suggest it.

[Peelee]

I suppose it's possible, but I still lean towards V leaving well enough alone for now, with the importance of the mission taking firs priority.

Color me skeptical (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1046.html).


What I really don't understand is that apparently Blackwing is composing the message, which doesn't really fit with any theory I have about where the Sending is going.

V is likely incapable of shortening their speech to 25 words, which Blackwing can help with.

[hroþila]

I think the reasons why V left still apply. The only reason why I'd see them contacting Inky by now would be to warn them about the potentially imminent end of the world, but if they didn't do it when Hel's plan was in motion, I don't see the point of doing it now. Besides, there's not much that Inky can realistically do about it anyway. Plus, I don't see what could come out of that scene that would make a proper book ending (they tend to be ominous if not cliffhangy), especially since V's personal issues have taken a back seat during this book.

As for Blackwing's involvement, I think it's just that he's helping because they've consciously turned it into a group activity because they are a team now and they care for each other, it's not that V wouldn't be able to do it on their own.

[Edward15]

No Sphinx Pox?

What the Hel!

So many pixels valiantly fought the idle speculation wars in vain!

Yeah, it did seem like a waste of a Chekhov's Gun. I can't help but think that as glad as Elan will be that no one is going to die, seeing a potentially dramatic plot device not be used would break his heart.

On the subject of drama, however, its going to be a nerve-wracking week as we wait for the end of the book on Monday. Something tells me that one's going to end on a big wham!

[Peelee]

"Last breath ever" makes this less likely, but I do like the idea of subverting "redemption=death", particularly for a character like Belkar.

I like the idea of subverting it too, but in the "death but no redemption" sense. Belkar is more three-dimensional, which does not necessarily equate to less evil. Plus, we have a character who says redemption is a rare and special thing, and we have a character who needs redemption and actively acknowledges that they did a terrible thing.

[Squire Doodad]

On the subject of drama, however, its going to be a nerve-wracking week as we wait for the end of the book on Monday. Something tells me that one's going to end on a big wham!

Xykon fell victim to a cave-in where RC lost his pendant, before he could find the phylactery the Bugbears tried exploding the rocks away, causing it to be lost forever as it fell into the lava pit in the tunnel below.

RC gave up and moved back to Gobbotopia, where he is now trying to take the diplomatic route of aiding the goblin people.

[Kantaki]

They're leaving briefing the newbie (and Belkar) to Elan?:smallconfused:
Oh well, she should get the basics.

Also, the Sphinx Pox couldn't have been resolved more dramatically.:smalltongue:

[Forikroder]

I think the reasons why V left still apply. The only reason why I'd see them contacting Inky by now would be to warn them about the potentially imminent end of the world, but if they didn't do it when Hel's plan was in motion, I don't see the point of doing it now. Besides, there's not much that Inky can realistically do about it anyway. Plus, I don't see what could come out of that scene that would make a proper book ending (they tend to be ominous if not cliffhangy), especially since V's personal issues have taken a back seat during this book.

As for Blackwing's involvement, I think it's just that he's helping because they've consciously turned it into a group activity because they are a team now and they care for each other, it's not that V wouldn't be able to do it on their own.

maybe with the imminentness of everything combined with them just waiting with nothing to do he decided now was best time for her to properly apologize for everything and maybe suggest they go to Vs master and planeshift somewhere safe

[Ghosty]

Does he care about the plot or is he interested in the girl.....

Why not both? An interesting point, is the girl interested in him? Minrah's expression looks pleased at having Belkar sit in on the storytelling.

For the Sending, if it is Blackwing doing the sending, which possible recipient would be more likely to hear out Blackwing than V? Of course, it's probably just V checking in with O-Chul and Lien.

How does the Order know where K's Tomb is? Lien gave them directions?

[Yirggzmb]

I think the reasons why V left still apply. The only reason why I'd see them contacting Inky by now would be to warn them about the potentially imminent end of the world, but if they didn't do it when Hel's plan was in motion, I don't see the point of doing it now. Besides, there's not much that Inky can realistically do about it anyway. Plus, I don't see what could come out of that scene that would make a proper book ending (they tend to be ominous if not cliffhangy), especially since V's personal issues have taken a back seat during this book.

We can't forget that this entire book has taken place over the course of about a week, give or take. I won't place bets on who V might be writing to, but I don't see it as totally unlikely that it's Inky anyway. It's possible there wasn't enough time during the rush to get to the dwarven lands to do so before now.

[Nightcanon]

Well, that's the "OMG, what about Sphinx Pox!?!?" threads all sorted out then.

If Elan is going through the whole strip line-by-line, it's going to be a LOOOOOOOONG story.

First strip of next book:
Elan: ... and then we boarded the airship, Roy went off to be unwell, and I offered to do a quick recap of the story so far
Minrah/Belkar: [comment indicating how much the order has been through to get to this point/ that Elan has talked for hours and he lost interest after all]
Elan: It takes time to go back over the old plot, but lots of people find it useful and convenient while they are waiting a while for the next chapter to start.

[Ghosty]

Yeah, it did seem like a waste of a Chekhov's Gun. I can't help but think that as glad as Elan will be that no one is going to die, seeing a potentially dramatic plot device not be used would break his heart...

Speaking of wasted Chekhov's Guns, as I read elsewhere, who else was disappointed that we didn't get to see Bloodfeast wake up from his nap?

[AJ the Ronin]

I just want to mention that the very first OotS I ever read, many, many years ago, is mentioned in this strip and it actually made me feel nostalgic and my eyes reacted badly to the dust around in the office. :)

[gatemansgc]

wow, the giant actually mentioned pace of release! can't wait for that cliffhanger! i know the giant loves subverting expectations so i don't think it'll have xykon standing in front of the last gate. would be too predictable. plus it would force the last book into a mad rush.

also since durkon is curing everyone, that means belkar is cured too. that takes away sphinx pox from what will kill him. my thoughts are still on him trying to stab the snarl!

[D.One]

Great strip. Good closing of chapter for all of them, which means next strip (last of the book, if I understood correctly) might probably change to another location, possibly team Evil.

I've read it a couple of times and I'm still confused by the title "Perpendicular to the Sunlight". Didn't really catch the joke... :smallconfused:

[Phoniex]

NOOOOOOOO must have more OOTS!! thanks for all the GREAT work giant!

[Peelee]

can't wait for that cliffhanger! i know the giant loves subverting expectations so i don't think it'll have xykon standing in front of the last gate. would be too predictable. plus it would force the last book into a mad rush.

The ritual takes several weeks, so I would contest the "mad rush" part.

[Lheticus]

Okay, am I just being slow here, or what? How did Durkon know about the Sphinx Pox? He could have found out the same way he got the knowledge of the dwarven clanmeet rules, but when did H.P.O.H. find out about it? I don't recall it being mentioned by Hel to him, just being mentioned. Someone please make me feel really dumb here!

[Edward15]

Speaking of wasted Chekhov's Guns, as I read elsewhere, who else was disappointed that we didn't get to see Bloodfeast wake up from his nap?
Yeah, I'll be honest, I almost forgot about him. Perhaps Bloodfeast will end up coming into play in the next book.

[DaOldeWolf]

I know I might be overthinking it but did Durkon use the spell on Roy? The middle panel with Roy sounds a bit ominous.

[Squire Doodad]

I know I might be overthinking it but did Durkon use the spell on Roy? The middle panel with Roy sounds a bit ominous.

If he hasn't already, he'll have done so by the end of tomorrow.

[Fish]

I don’t see cute animals tucking Roy in.

I see a disease vector Durkon may have forgot to cure: hidden animals in a magic bag.

[Schroeswald]

"Last breath ever" makes this less likely, but I do like the idea of subverting "redemption=death", particularly for a character like Belkar.
I agree with this, especially because as a trope redemption=death is overused to an excessive degree, while it’s not a completely useless trope and many great redemption stories use it we usually don’t get to see the character doing good later and a sense of symmetry, just one climactic moment where they sacrifice their life, now they’re good, trust us (but Belkar’s definitely getting it, and I’m cool with it in this situation)

I like the idea of subverting it too, but in the "death but no redemption" sense. Belkar is more three-dimensional, which does not necessarily equate to less evil. Plus, we have a character who says redemption is a rare and special thing, and we have a character who needs redemption and actively acknowledges that they did a terrible thing.
Huh? I don’t understand what you’re trying to say in the last sentence, the Soon quote fits into the argument but I don’t really understand what you’re getting at with the second part.

Also, 1151 can’t really be interpreted as anything but Durkon saying that Belkar is going to be redeemed (or is at least redeemable), and at least one important character who was legitimately Evil is getting redeemed or else that strip is utterly meaningless (because the MiTD was never really Evil if you take his SoD characterization over his Book 1 one), and while I think Redcloak won’t be Evil by the end of the comic he hasn’t moved much, and if I’d have to pick which one of them is getting redeemed (the only other ones still around are demons and Xykon) my money’s on the Belkster.

[Squire Doodad]

I don’t see cute animals tucking Roy in.

I see a disease vector Durkon may have forgot to cure: hidden animals in a magic bag.

That's actually a good point, but if we assume the summoned animals only run out per day then extra ones probably get healed at the end of each day as they reenter the bag.

[JumboWheat01]

And a call-back to a previous joke with someone using sending and it going over 25 words several times.

[Corian]

A thought: V might be sending to Aarindarius; being able to acknowledge that he needs his mentor's help would be very significant character growth for hir, actually. Hir refusal to do so originally was key to his accepting the IFCC's deal, and the stakes are certainly high enough.

[Squire Doodad]

A thought: V might be sending to Aarindarius; being able to acknowledge that he needs his mentor's help would be very significant character growth for hir, actually. Hir refusal to do so originally was key to his accepting the IFCC's deal, and the stakes are certainly high enough.

That could work too. Probably 40/40 for O-Chul vs Inky, with a 20% chance of it being Aarin

[Peelee]

Huh? I don’t understand what you’re trying to say in the last sentence, the Soon quote fits into the argument but I don’t really understand what you’re getting at with the second part.
V. V needs redemption and is actually acknowledging that.

Also, 1151 can’t really be interpreted as anything but Durkon saying that Belkar is going to be redeemed (or is at least redeemable)

Redeemable, sure. Going to be? Unsure.

I'd rather see the redemption of someone who wants it and is working towards it as opposed to the redemption of someone who couldn't care less and is working towards being less one-dimensional.

[HandofShadows]

You have a lethal disease that will kill you in a long agonizing manner, nothing to worry about.

[Fish]

That's actually a good point, but if we assume the summoned animals only run out per day then extra ones probably get healed at the end of each day as they reenter the bag.
Bloodfeast also fits that description: hidden animal in magic bag.

[Resileaf]

You have a lethal disease that will kill you in a long agonizing manner, nothing to worry about.

Had.
Durkon just cured it.

[Forikroder]

Why not both? An interesting point, is the girl interested in him? Minrah's expression looks pleased at having Belkar sit in on the storytelling.

For the Sending, if it is Blackwing doing the sending, which possible recipient would be more likely to hear out Blackwing than V? Of course, it's probably just V checking in with O-Chul and Lien.

How does the Order know where K's Tomb is? Lien gave them directions?

the only location that was recorded wrong was Girards gate, soon knew where the rest were properly

[Kashem]

with Belkar's character development, I wonder if his "death" is the figurative end of who he was before. and he now lives as a completely different person after Durkon's sacrifice

Based on the fact that the oracle tried to generate excuses similar, but those were seen to not fulfill the prophecy, I would guess that Belkar probably needs to actually die at some point.
Reference 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)
Belkar's Prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

I will say that it is worth noting that there are ways to stop drawing breath that don't lead to a traditional death. Xykon, for instance, no longer draws breath. Undurkon also did not draw breath (except when he was trying to fool the priests in tinkertown).

[hroþila]

I don’t see cute animals tucking Roy in.

I see a disease vector Durkon may have forgot to cure: hidden animals in a magic bag.
Huh, that's interesting. I found the placement of that panel very puzzling because I didn't see the relation to what Durkon was saying. This would explain it.

[Squire Doodad]

Bloodfeast also fits that description: hidden animal in magic bag.

Reptiles are immune to sphinx pox, for literally no reason other than that there's no reason to assume it works the same on mammals as on reptiles.

[Kantaki]

You have a lethal disease that will kill you in a long agonizing manner, nothing to worry about.

Had.:smalltongue:

[gatemansgc]

The ritual takes several weeks, so I would contest the "mad rush" part.

you could be right. but how often is it when most of the forums are predicting one thing but the giant makes something come out of left field that still makes complete sense in comic terms (like with the rock breaking the table). that's one of the reasons why we all love this comic, he's SO good at doing that!

[Themrys]

I had actually thought he was Sending on behalf of Blackwing, since Nale is the only person we've ever seen have trouble with the word limit before. But on the other hand I have no idea who Blackwing would want to contact. But on the other other hand, V's seemed pretty well resolved to leave Inkyrius and the kids behind so as not to endanger them further, so contacting them again at this point also feels off.

My guess is that, after hearing what Hilgya plans to do when the **** hits the fan, Vaarsuvius remembered V's parental responsibility and is sending to Aarindarius to warn the elven village of the potentially impending end of the world and ask Aarindarius to planeshift Inkyrius and the kids out.

25 words wouldn't be nearly enough to explain things to Inkyrius, but "The world is doomed! Flee, you fools!" should get the point across to another wizard, with plenty space to explain that the world might not end, and V will come to the plane of ranch dressing to pick them up when/if the danger is over.

I don't think Aarindarius will participate in any climactic battle that V is in, too. Mentors ought not to meddle in the protagonist's adventures. But planeshifting all the elves Aarindarius knows personally and cares about to a safe place will keep Aarindarius busy for a while, and at the same time show that V was wise enough to ask for help.

[Squire Doodad]

My guess is that, after hearing what Hilgya plans to do when the **** hits the fan, Vaarsuvius remembered V's parental responsibility and is sending to Aarindarius to warn the elven village of the potentially impending end of the world and ask Aarindarius to planeshift Inkyrius and the kids out.

25 words wouldn't be nearly enough to explain things to Inkyrius, but "The world is doomed! Flee, you fools!" should get the point across to another wizard, with plenty space to explain that the world might not end, and V will come to the plane of ranch dressing to pick them up when/if the danger is over.

Kids love the plane of ranch dressing, it's like a vacation for them.

[Erys]

Drunkenly using a Bag of Tricks to get tucked in...

BRILLIANT!!

[Peelee]

you could be right. but how often is it when most of the forums are predicting one thing but the giant makes something come out of left field that still makes complete sense in comic terms (like with the rock breaking the table). that's one of the reasons why we all love this comic, he's SO good at doing that!

Oh, I totally agree, which is why I chose to not argue that point.:smalltongue:

[gatemansgc]

Oh, I totally agree, which is why I chose to not argue that point.:smalltongue:

the great thing is that we have almost a whole week to do our guessing then all but maybe one or two of us gets proved absolutely wrong! :D

[Anarion]

Aah, I want to know the message that V wrote. Great comic though, I love the little animals pulling the cover over Roy.

[factotum]

Okay, am I just being slow here, or what? How did Durkon know about the Sphinx Pox? He could have found out the same way he got the knowledge of the dwarven clanmeet rules, but when did H.P.O.H. find out about it? I don't recall it being mentioned by Hel to him, just being mentioned. Someone please make me feel really dumb here!

It hasn't been mentioned on-panel, but seems to me the fact Durkon knows about it means HPOH must have found about it off-panel somehow--and that's literally all we need to know. It isn't important where or how he learned it, and it's entirely reasonable that Hel would have shared the Sphinx Pox plan with her High Priest at some point.

[Ornithologist]

Based on the fact that the oracle tried to generate excuses similar, but those were seen to not fulfill the prophecy, I would guess that Belkar probably needs to actually die at some point.
Reference 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)
Belkar's Prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

I will say that it is worth noting that there are ways to stop drawing breath that don't lead to a traditional death. Xykon, for instance, no longer draws breath. Undurkon also did not draw breath (except when he was trying to fool the priests in tinkertown).

I'm pretty sure he's going to die because of one particular point. The Oracle is both super petty and a major jerk, I'd use worse language if able. If he's happy that Belkar is drawing his last breath ever soon, I would take it hes going to die. The worst part is I'm super invested in Belkar getting character growth, and I'll be a bit sad when its over. I'm excited for what ever kind of subversion/aversion/shenanigans happen at its resolution.

[Stabbey]

I am not even the slightest bit surprised that Sphinx Pox, which was used as a gag to close a comic, was dealt with effortlessly as another gag to close a comic.


Great strip. Good closing of chapter for all of them, which means next strip (last of the book, if I understood correctly) might probably change to another location, possibly team Evil.

I've read it a couple of times and I'm still confused by the title "Perpendicular to the Sunlight". Didn't really catch the joke... :smallconfused:

Hmmm... the sun moves from east to west across the sky, so if the airship is moving due north, then they're moving perpendicular to the sunlight.

[Emanick]

Also, kudos to anyone who guessed that Sphinx Pox would come up again. :smallbiggrin:

I'm actually a little miffed about this, not because it's poor storytelling but because it's inconvenient for the bet I made with The Pilgrim. I think I won, because Sphinx Pox has been directly addressed and dealt with rather than simply referenced, but it's pretty borderline. Also, now I need a new signature.

Anyway, my bank account number is □□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□, in case anyone wishes to send me some juicy quatloos.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Aww, what a sweet little vignette. First, throughout this book I’ve loved the setting shots, and the first panel continues that trend. Nice to see Andi and Bandana interacting with no auto-wrenching involved. I am also curious who that Sending will be sent to. Also, thankful for the end of the Sphinx Pox discussions. And the critters are very cute.


New comic.

Since I know everyone is asking, this is the second-to-last for this book; the final strip will be posted Monday.

Also, expect an ornament/t-shirt announcement tomorrow-ish.

Very exciting! I’ll be eagerly awaiting that, since I’m sure that’s bound to be quite an exciting strip.

[Lord Torath]

No Sphinx Pox?

What the Hel!

So many pixels valiantly fought the idle speculation wars in vain!This had me laughing out loud. Thanks!

I love the critters tucking Roy into bed.

I like Belkar bragging to Minrah about his stabbiness.

Thanks, Rich!

[gurrumph]

Love that first panel, would make a great desktop background. Hoping for more mitd soon.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I had actually thought he was Sending on behalf of Blackwing, since Nale is the only person we've ever seen have trouble with the word limit before. But on the other hand I have no idea who Blackwing would want to contact. But on the other other hand, V's seemed pretty well resolved to leave Inkyrius and the kids behind so as not to endanger them further, so contacting them again at this point also feels off. V uses more than 25 words to say "huh?"


I've read it a couple of times and I'm still confused by the title "Perpendicular to the Sunlight". Didn't really catch the joke... :smallconfused:

It's another way of saying they're sailing into the sunset.

[D.One]

Hmmm... the sun moves from east to west across the sky, so if the airship is moving due north, then they're moving perpendicular to the sunlight.


It's another way of saying they're sailing into the sunset.

Makes sense... Thanks!

[Ornithologist]

It's another way of saying they're sailing into the sunset.

The sunset is in the west, they are traveling north. Which is Perpendicular to the sunlight as sunset. I get what he means, its just they set course 2 pages ago and would have fit better there. Though that title was a better use than this one.

eh, minor gripe at best. (edit: my griping, not anyone elses).

[Urm le Fou]

Love that first panel, would make a great desktop background. Hoping for more mitd soon.
Indeed. That first panel is beautiful. Also, in a strip full of callbacks, that first panel is in and of itself a callback to the art at the strip's beginning.

[D.One]

Is it just me, or does anybody else also have the impression that Roy has thrown up in the Bag of Tricks? And now you can't unsee it. BWAHAHAHAHA

[Jay R]

No Sphinx Pox?

What the Hel!

So many pixels valiantly fought the idle speculation wars in vain!

It may not be over yet.

Bear in mind that Cure Disease affects a single person. How many are on that ship, how many days are there until they reach Kraagor's Gate, and how many 3rd level spells can Durkon spare each day?

[D.One]

how many 3rd level spells can Durkon spare each day?

Per Class and Level Geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579856-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XVI-These-Characters-May-Now-Drive-the-Plot), Durkon is at least 13th level and has at least 22 in WIS, which means he has at least 18 slots per day that can be used for 3rd level spells.

Edit: and that's not counting he can cure up to 13 people if he casts Heroes' Feast.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Remove Disease, not Cure. Otherwise he'd be able to cast it spontaneously.

All he really needs is a single go with Heroes' Feast. For the record.

[D.One]

Remove Disease, not Cure. Otherwise he'd be able to cast it spontaneously.

All he really needs is a single go with Heroes' Feast. For the record.

I'm not sure if a single casting of Heroes' Feast would suffice, but considering just Durkon's not-Domain spells, he has 1 7th level, 3 6th level, 4 5th level, 5 4th level and 5 3rd level, which means he can cast up to 4 Heroes' Feast and 14 Remove Disease, thus curing the disease of up to 66 people in one day, if needed be.

[Petrocorus]

I +1 the people who think V is sending to Inkyrius. That was my initial thought too.

Though sending to O-Chul obviously makes sense too.

[Swiftbow]

Belkar just demonstrated his greatest progress towards Goodness ever: he knocked before coming in!
Surely, soon will come the day when he ceases to be CN and becomes CG, on the very day where he will have learned to wait for the answer before coming in.

Chaotic Good would totally enter immediatly after knocking (if they're friends with the occupants). That's only a rule, and those are made to be broken.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

V messaging someone is interesting. Given it's of their own accord, it's someone they know: Lien, O-Chul, or Inkyrius. I think messaging Lien or O-Chul is what's going to take us to a shot of the pole where the squad will be reporting back what they're seeing

Hype for Haley, Belkar, Bloodfeast and Scruffy vs Oona, Lancer, and Greyview in a melee fight.

Interesting development for Belkar, being polite and wanting to know what's going on. Maybe something will develop between him and Minrah. *shrug*

Goodbye Sphinx Pox. You will not be missed.

And finally, the Bag of Tricks fulfills its purpose: assisting drunk people.

Hyped for next comic, and pre-ordering now

[D.One]

I +1 the people who think V is sending to Inkyrius. That was my initial thought too.

Though sending to O-Chul obviously makes sense too.

What if Durkon explained the situation and V's Sending to Redcloak?

What if V's Sending to Hinjo?

What if V's Sending to Xykon explaining TDO's plan?

What if V's Sending to each and every living relative of people (s)he Familicided that (s)he could find out to apologize?

[Peelee]

Is it just me, or does anybody else also have the impression that Roy has thrown up in the Bag of Tricks? And now you can't unsee it. BWAHAHAHAHA

Imean, I still can't see it to begin with. It's a bag of tricks, not a bag of holding.

[Fyraltari]

Color me skeptical (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1046.html).
Look man moving on is hard to do even if that’s what your thinking-brain decided.
Yes, I’m talking from experience, shut up!

An interesting point, is the girl interested in him? Minrah's expression looks pleased at having Belkar sit in on the storytelling.
Please no.


How does the Order know where K's Tomb is? Lien gave them directions?
Shojo did, way back when.

I don’t see cute animals tucking Roy in.

I see a disease vector Durkon may have forgot to cure: hidden animals in a magic bag.
It’s the Corrupt Blood Incident all over again, isn’t it?

You have a lethal disease that will kill you in a long agonizing manner, nothing to worry about.
The Doctor: My, all these diseases, if you were real, you’d die in a couple months.
Robin’s Merry Man: I am real!
The Doctor: Buh-bye!

Hmmm... the sun moves from east to west across the sky, so if the airship is moving due north, then they're moving perpendicular to the sunlight.
That’s perpendicular to the sun’s course, not sunlight.

It's another way of saying they're sailing into the sunset.
That’d be parallel to the sunlight.

[Izandai]

If I recall correctly, the next page after the one Elan is describing is where we first get any kind of explanation of the plot, so Belkar's come in at the perfect time.

[Schroeswald]

V. V needs redemption and is actually acknowledging that.


Redeemable, sure. Going to be? Unsure.

I'd rather see the redemption of someone who wants it and is working towards it as opposed to the redemption of someone who couldn't care less and is working towards being less one-dimensional.

Thanks, I didn’t really understand who you were talking about.

But I disagree with the idea that Belkar isn’t starting to acknowledge he needs redemption and consciously work towards it. He’s been improving as a person in a (fairly) steady path since about the time he took in Mr. Scruffy, and while until Durkon died it was pretty consistent with becoming 1.5D since then it’s been pretty clearly getting better, starting to recognize that other people’s lives matter beyond “funny man will stay funny” and “sex with them would be nice”, and that if they’re willing to give it up for him, maybe he should be willing to give it up for them, yesterday evening he actively tried to do a Good thing, for the sole purpose of being more Good, and less than an hour ago he started to admit that the way he currently is is bad, while I admit much of his progress has been recent he’s still pretty clearly (to me at least) getting better, and knowing he’s doing it. I could also add a long explanation about how his stakes/view of self/view of world redemption triangle is changing but that would take awhile and this already took me like an hour of on and off writing to compose.

[Dutch]

Everything about this strip is gold; but please tell me that I am not the only one that forgot about the Sphinx Pox?!

[RatElemental]

I'm not sure if a single casting of Heroes' Feast would suffice, but considering just Durkon's not-Domain spells, he has 1 7th level, 3 6th level, 4 5th level, 5 4th level and 5 3rd level, which means he can cast up to 4 Heroes' Feast and 14 Remove Disease, thus curing the disease of up to 66 people in one day, if needed be.

Durkon can also just prepare remove disease or hero's feast in a higher level slot than they technically need in order to get even more casts in if needed.

[Fyraltari]

Nice touch that Roy's boots are still not the same size when he's not wearing them, as established a long time ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0401.html).

So has it been an entire day since the battle of the Council Hall or is there some artic weirdness going on with the sun, here?

[RatElemental]

Nice touch that Roy's boots are still not the same size when he's not wearing them, as established a long time ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0401.html).

So has it been an entire day since the battle of the Council Hall or is there some artic weirdness going on with the sun, here?

It could be summer. Far enough north the sun never sets in summer.

[Theaitetos]

is pretty much the equivalent of "Rocks fall, everybody dies"


It's 2019! :smallbiggrin:

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/05/14/16/13476156-7027253-Not_satisfied_But_that_wasn_t_all_as_fans_also_cri ticised_the_ba-a-26_1557848237098.jpg
https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Cersei-Jaime-Lannister-Red-Keep-Season-8-806.jpg


Love the critters, so cool! :smallsmile:

[Tvtyrant]

Wholesome! Some set up for further down the line and a tiny dose of character development.

[LordSith]

Sphinx pot appeared in which page? I do not remember it.

[Peelee]

it’s been pretty clearly getting better, starting to recognize that other people’s lives matter beyond “funny man will stay funny” and “sex with them would be nice”

Again, that's not prioritizing being a better person, that's prioritizing not being an annoying little runt.

[Psychronia]

Take that, Sphinx Pox! Shoulda loved Hel and propagated faster.

This is a nice wholesome break for our team. Truly, everyone has come so far.

[Ornithologist]

It could be summer. Far enough north the sun never sets in summer.

Actually, it is somewhere between the first week of January to early March. There's actually a good chance of there being no Sun at all during the day.

[ti'esar]

The sunset is in the west, they are traveling north. Which is Perpendicular to the sunlight as sunset. I get what he means, its just they set course 2 pages ago and would have fit better there. Though that title was a better use than this one.

eh, minor gripe at best. (edit: my griping, not anyone elses).

The joke, IMO, is that they would be sailing off into the sunset, but going to the north pole gets in the way of narrative conventions.

[Fyraltari]

It could be summer. Far enough north the sun never sets in summer.

But does it go west before the end of the "day"?

[hobo386]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think the old stuff holds up just as well as the new stuff, and often better.

[NobleCuriosity]

The joke, IMO, is that they would be sailing off into the sunset, but going to the north pole gets in the way of narrative conventions.

Thank you, that’s the best explanation I’ve seen so far, and actually made me smile.


Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think the old stuff holds up just as well as the new stuff, and often better.

Unpopular with me anyway. The gag-a-day stuff seems vastly shallower than the drama does for me (admittedly, I’ve only actually played 5e.). I usually skip book 1 when doing a reread.

[danielxcutter]

Again, that's not prioritizing being a better person, that's prioritizing not being an annoying little runt.

...Isn't prioritizing not being an annoying little runt still being a better person than before? No, I'm being totally serious.

[Doug Lampert]

Also, the Sphinx Pox couldn't have been resolved more dramatically.:smalltongue:

It was perfect. The Sphinx Pox got exactly the drama it deserved given the existence of a high level cleric.


And finally, the Bag of Tricks fulfills its purpose: assisting drunk people.

Hey! It has a purpose! Yeah!

[Particle_Man]

So if they are lining up their abilities and priorities, and sailing north, perpendicular to the sunset they are . . . Polarized. :smallcool:

I think maybe Belkar will end up petrified like that Dwarf from the Order of the Scribble, but I could be wrong.

I vote that V is writing their ex. Maybe seeing Durkon and Hilgya coming to some sort of accommodation (and the kid! V has kids!) sparked some similar idea in V's mind.

Great strip!

[Peelee]

But does it go west before the end of the "day"?
Does it go east-west in Stickworld to begin with?

...Isn't prioritizing not being an annoying little runt still being a better person than before? No, I'm being totally serious.
"Better" in what sense? Because I'm arguing its not better in the "Good-Evil" sense, which is where redemption would come into play. Dream Shojo told Belkar to play the game or they'd boot him from the table. That doesn't equate to "don't be Evil."

[Grey Watcher]

I know I might be overthinking it but did Durkon use the spell on Roy? The middle panel with Roy sounds a bit ominous.


I don’t see cute animals tucking Roy in.

I see a disease vector Durkon may have forgot to cure: hidden animals in a magic bag.

It reads a lot less ominously if you imagine the transition between the last two panels as having a record scratch sound effect. :smalltongue:

[NobleCuriosity]

It reads a lot less ominously if you imagine the transition between the last two panels as having a record scratch sound effect. :smalltongue:

I also want to say that I really appreciate the scorch marks from Blackwing’s deliberate UMD mishap ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1020.html ) still being there on V’s desk area. Giant could have just said “oh they replaced the table” and drawn less, instead we got a nice little continuity check.

[mjasghar]

Yeah, it did seem like a waste of a Chekhov's Gun. I can't help but think that as glad as Elan will be that no one is going to die, seeing a potentially dramatic plot device not be used would break his heart.

On the subject of drama, however, its going to be a nerve-wracking week as we wait for the end of the book on Monday. Something tells me that one's going to end on a big wham!

I think it was used as a joke about Hel and an example of her immaturity which the forums conflated

[Schroeswald]

Does it go east-west in Stickworld to begin with?

"Better" in what sense? Because I'm arguing its not better in the "Good-Evil" sense, which is where redemption would come into play. Dream Shojo told Belkar to play the game or they'd boot him from the table. That doesn't equate to "don't be Evil."

Belkar has moved far beyond Dream Shojo’s advice, because he’s not just faking friendliness and helpfulness, he’s starting to show empathy to people, that gnome shopkeeper didn’t get a date because Belkar felt weird about it, Greg was attacked because he stealing Durkon’s body, and the best way to be redeemed is to realize that you hurt others and that it was bad to do that, instead you should help them, and trying to be helpful and kind does equate to not being an annoying little runt.

[Endarire]

Sphinx Pox: Thor could've told him off-panel.

[Anitar]

I think maybe Belkar will end up petrified like that Dwarf from the Order of the Scribble, but I could be wrong.

You can clip that "could" if you like. Kraagor (the dwarf in question) wasn't petrified, he was locked away with the Snarl; and the statue of him is a memorial, not his remains. As far as we know, anyway.

[Theaitetos]

Sphinx pot appeared in which page? I do not remember it.

Sphinx Pox: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html

[Ruck]

Color me skeptical (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1046.html).

I'm aware of the existence of that strip, but I still think it's more important for Vaarsuvius to contact the Order's allies.


"Last breath ever" makes this less likely, but I do like the idea of subverting "redemption=death", particularly for a character like Belkar.


I like the idea of subverting it too, but in the "death but no redemption" sense. Belkar is more three-dimensional, which does not necessarily equate to less evil. Plus, we have a character who says redemption is a rare and special thing, and we have a character who needs redemption and actively acknowledges that they did a terrible thing.


I agree with this, especially because as a trope redemption=death is overused to an excessive degree, while it’s not a completely useless trope and many great redemption stories use it we usually don’t get to see the character doing good later and a sense of symmetry, just one climactic moment where they sacrifice their life, now they’re good, trust us (but Belkar’s definitely getting it, and I’m cool with it in this situation)

I try to stay away from bringing up tropes in criticism because it's an easy road to walk to get you where you're evaluating a work largely by whether it subverted, inverted, or refried tropes. Whatever happens to Belkar will work or not for me based on whether it is plausible based on his character and effective based on the needs of the drama.

[Draconi Redfir]

At last we can put this Sphinx Pox thing to rest :P

[Ruck]

My guess is that, after hearing what Hilgya plans to do when the **** hits the fan, Vaarsuvius remembered V's parental responsibility and is sending to Aarindarius to warn the elven village of the potentially impending end of the world and ask Aarindarius to planeshift Inkyrius and the kids out.

25 words wouldn't be nearly enough to explain things to Inkyrius, but "The world is doomed! Flee, you fools!" should get the point across to another wizard, with plenty space to explain that the world might not end, and V will come to the plane of ranch dressing to pick them up when/if the danger is over.

I don't think Aarindarius will participate in any climactic battle that V is in, too. Mentors ought not to meddle in the protagonist's adventures. But planeshifting all the elves Aarindarius knows personally and cares about to a safe place will keep Aarindarius busy for a while, and at the same time show that V was wise enough to ask for help.

This is a more plausible case to me than that V is going Stevie Wonder (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiRj5m63oig) sending to Inkyrius.


Again, that's not prioritizing being a better person, that's prioritizing not being an annoying little runt.

I gotta disagree-- if Belkar is starting to recognize that other people's lives matter, that is clearly a step toward being a better person, even if it is one he should have made a long time ago. Isn't one of the fundamental traits of Good "a concern for the dignity of sentient beings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html)"?

[jwhouk]

Sphinx Pox: Thor could've told him off-panel.

And here I thought I was going to be the one saying this. :/

I suspect V is Sending to OChul, but the Sending could also be to that one priestess back at the Godsmoot as well.

Thing is, what could they say in 25 words to relay what's happened?

[Alex Warlorn]

Objection. I still find the "level" vs "level" joke fun.

[Theaitetos]

but the Sending could also be to that one priestess back at the Godsmoot as well.

They can't, because the clerics at the Godsmoot are blocked from communication: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html

[Rogar Demonblud]

And here I thought I was going to be the one saying this. :/

I suspect V is Sending to OChul, but the Sending could also be to that one priestess back at the Godsmoot as well.

Thing is, what could they say in 25 words to relay what's happened?

The magic quarantine of the Godsmoot blocks communication spells. V is not contacting Veldrina.

[RatElemental]

Again, that's not prioritizing being a better person, that's prioritizing not being an annoying little runt.

I'm starting to wonder what Belkar would have to do before you would look at that and say "Yep, that's some redemption progress right there."

Belkar has:

1. Experienced empathy towards other living creatures and altered his behavior accordingly (Gnome Shopkeeper).
2. Expressed remorse for previous actions and made attempts at restitution towards those he hurt (apologizing to Durkon).
3. Is likely engaging in introspection about his other misdeeds ("Hardcore Introspection").
4. Is actively changing his behavior in light of the above (Seeing Elan in this strip).

[Dion]

The magic quarantine of the Godsmoot blocks communication spells. V is not contacting Veldrina.

My guess is V learned something from Durkon, and is trying to be a better parent by writing postcards to their children.

[Watcher]

I’m surprised that nobody’s brought up the last time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html) Sending was mentioned. V could be inspired by Durkon keeping in contact with his mother, and regret (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1046.html) that they didn’t call home more or even to let Inky know they were okay.

[LadyEowyn]

"Better" in what sense? Because I'm arguing its not better in the "Good-Evil" sense, which is where redemption would come into play. Dream Shojo told Belkar to play the game or they'd boot him from the table. That doesn't equate to "don't be Evil."
That’s cerrtainly what was going on up until Durkon’s death, aside from some minor (and unwanted) flashes of actual empathy, like helping Gannji and Enor because they reminded Belkar of himself and Mr. Scruffy.

After Durkon’s death, I think it became more than just trying to fake acting like an actual person. Belkar genuinely felt guilty that Durkon had died protecting him, began to understand (and care) that Durkon was a good person and Belkar wasn’t, and to feel guilty when his actions harmed others (like ripping off the gnome woman by convincing her the Protection from Evil clasp was ‘broken’).

It’s still very, very small steps, and Belkar notably hasn’t shown any particular remorse or repentance for all his past years of wantonly murdering innocent people. So he’s still very much Evil.

I agree with you that I’m more interested in V’s redemption arc, because he has expressed repentance and a desire to atone.

Belkar’s arc has been interesting in its own way because, rather than seeking to become a better person, it’s been happening against his will, and he’s mostly been embarrassed by it and trying to deny that he’s changing. His conversation with Durkon after the defeat of Durkula seems to have been a turning point in that regard, where he first acknowledged that becoming a better person was, in fact, something desirable (and found a way of convincing himself that moral amendment was ‘badass’). But for the reasons you state, I agree that he’s still a long way from any genuine redemption arc.

[Peelee]

Belkar has moved far beyond Dream Shojo’s advice, because he’s not just faking friendliness and helpfulness, he’s starting to show empathy to people, that gnome shopkeeper didn’t get a date because Belkar felt weird about it, Greg was attacked because he stealing Durkon’s body, and the best way to be redeemed is to realize that you hurt others and that it was bad to do that, instead you should help them, and trying to be helpful and kind does equate to not being an annoying little runt.

I missed the part where Belkar realized it was bad to hurt others. He regretted hurting Durkon, sure, but does he give a crap about Solt? The Oracle? Any of the many others that he's murdered, or sold into slavery, or any other heinous things he'd done?

Sure, he turned down a gnome for a date, after he fleeced that same gnome out of thousands of gold pieces. And Malack didn't rat out the Order of the Stick that one time because Durkon asked him not to. I wasn't willing to ascribe the snake any thoughts of being redeemed for that, and I saw no reason to ascribe those thoughts to the halfling for the charitable act of not taking even further advantage of the gnome than he already was.

If Belkar wanted the benefit of the doubt, he shouldn't have been a murderous human trafficker. He gets no brownie points from me for being terrible but slightly less than he used to be. Especially when, and I cannot stress this enough, he doesn't seem to care at all about redemption. That's a big sticking point, at least for me. If someone wants to be redeemed, regardless of how bad they are, I'm willing to give some benefit of the doubt. When they couldn't care less? Then I see no reason why I shouldn't either.

[Watcher]

Has Belkar actually enslaved anyone? He considered doing that to Samantha, but he only “knows a guy who knows a guy” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), and Buggy Lou only said (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0685.html) he was friends with a supplier.

Also, Belkar hasn’t gotten to the point where he regrets everything he’s ever done, yet, but he expressed to Durkon an interest in introspection. It takes time to consider what you find.

[Bratmon]

I loved every part of this comic.

[RatElemental]

He gets no brownie points from me for being terrible but slightly less than he used to be.

So he's less terrible than he used to be. A low bar, to be sure, but that means Belkar is a better person than he was, which is all anyone's really said about him.

[CriticalFailure]

At first I thought she must be sending to Inkyrius, but in terms of story Lien/O-Chul makes more sense because that would allow for a transition to whatever’s going down at the North Pole. It could be a dramatic cutaway to the paladins being captured by team evil or something.

[Bilbo Baggins]

At last we can put this Sphinx Pox thing to rest :P

You'd think so, but...


I know I might be overthinking it but did Durkon use the spell on Roy? The middle panel with Roy sounds a bit ominous.


It may not be over yet.

Bear in mind that Cure Disease affects a single person. How many are on that ship, how many days are there until they reach Kraagor's Gate, and how many 3rd level spells can Durkon spare each day?

Sphinx pox will never die in our hearts!

[unluckiest13]

I love that Roy deployed his critters to take care of his drunken self, an excellent callback to the bag being made by drunk wizards to begin with. Also, Belkar cares about the story! Woot!

I had forgotten all about the drunk wizards thing...that just makes that panel so much better.

[drazen]

So if Julio has crash trained proteges, and Elan got a boost as a Dashing Swordsman... will we soon see a multiclassed Haley? If so, what is she picking up? (Assassin from all the stabby motions?)

[Schroeswald]

So if Julio has crash trained proteges, and Elan got a boost as a Dashing Swordsman... will we soon see a multiclassed Haley? If so, what is she picking up? (Assassin from all the stabby motions?)

I'd guess that she wouldn't pick up assassin due to the requirements, namely the one where she has to be Evil and kill one person for the sole reason of picking up the class.

[Peelee]

So he's less terrible than he used to be. A low bar, to be sure, but that means Belkar is a better person than he was, which is all anyone's really said about him.

"On the road to CN" is downright common for people to say about him. Which I would call significantly different than "better person than he was."

[RatElemental]

"On the road to CN" is downright common for people to say about him. Which I would call significantly different than "better person than he was."

Roads can be pretty long, doesn't make you any less on them if you happen to be on them. You can even be on the road to a place you don't intend to get to.

If my fever breaks am I not on the road to recovery just because at that moment the last thing I want to do is get out of bed, even if I have to to go get more medicine?

[Dion]

"On the road to CN" is downright common for people to say about him. Which I would call significantly different than "better person than he was."

To be fair to belkar, I don't think he's stabbed a random stranger for no reason since the gladiator pit. And that was at least two weeks ago!

[Peelee]

Roads can be pretty long, doesn't make you any less on them if you happen to be on them. You can even be on the road to a place you don't intend to get to.

If my fever breaks am I not on the road to recovery just because at that moment the last thing I want to do is get out of bed, even if I have to to go get more medicine?


To be fair to belkar, I don't think he's stabbed a random stranger for no reason since the gladiator pit. And that was at least two weeks ago!

At which point I revert to my trusty old "Darth Vader retired on the beach" analogy. Thise kids aren't any less dead, and he's not any less Evil, despite that he hasn't killed anyone in months and has just been sipping space mai tais.

[RatElemental]

At which point I revert to my trusty old "Darth Vader retired on the beach" analogy. Thise kids aren't any less dead, and he's not any less Evil, despite that he hasn't killed anyone in months and has just been sipping space mai tais.

The first step to fixing any problem is to stop making it any worse. Is this hypothetical retired Darth Vader under the impression that not facing his demons would make him weak? Is he currently traveling/living with people who have an interest in helping him face said demons? Did he ever apologize to someone for hitting them with a womp rat? Did a close comrade sacrifice their life, stirring up feelings of guilt in him? Is he currently involved in a mission to prevent the galaxy from being destroyed?

Baby steps are still steps.

[Peelee]

The first step to fixing any problem is to stop making it any worse.

If I am smashing a device with a hammer and then stop smashing it, with zero desire to fix it, I've taken no steps towards fixing it and would take issue with people saying "can't wait until he gets that thing up and running!"

Not making a problem worse is not a step towards fixing a problem. It's just no longer plummeting.

[titan_monarch]

I don’t see cute animals tucking Roy in.

I see a disease vector Durkon may have forgot to cure: hidden animals in a magic bag.

This! The placement of that one panel with previously-apparently-just-drunk Roy now looking thoroughly sick right between Durkon mentioning the Sphinx Pox looks to me like a pretty blatant hint that he's suffering it. Which may be problematic later.

[Peelee]

This! The placement of that one panel with previously-apparently-just-drunk Roy now looking thoroughly sick

Looking thoroughly passed out in a drunken stupor?

[Caynist]

At which point I revert to my trusty old "Darth Vader retired on the beach" analogy. Thise kids aren't any less dead, and he's not any less Evil, despite that he hasn't killed anyone in months and has just been sipping space mai tais.

I'm really interested - what role would you say atonement plays in who you are, today? Like, Vader might spend months on a beach sure, but I'd imagine what he thinks about in all that time tells me everything about who he is, today. If he spent months mentally weeping over his misdeeds, he's less evil than if he spent months mentally cheering the goriest bits. I don't think he's atoned in either case, just that he's less likely to kill again in the first case.

I think both good and evil need to be constantly reinforced in thought and deed or they wear down towards neutral, and Belkar's actions this book don't seem evil (or good) in the slightest to me. I'd call him capital-n Neutral, but I don't really know how DnD alignment works.

[factotum]

Looking thoroughly passed out in a drunken stupor?

Yeah, seems pretty obvious Roy is looking sick because he's dead drunk, not because of any illness--you know, because we saw him getting drunk in the previous strip!

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I think both good and evil need to be constantly reinforced in thought and deed or they wear down towards neutral, and Belkar's actions this book don't seem evil (or good) in the slightest to me. I'd call him capital-n Neutral, but I don't really know how DnD alignment works.

Exactly. In this book, Belkar has not done anything particularly Evil. He has swindled an individual out of some money, sure, but that's pretty neutral. He's killed several giants, but they were doing an evil thing and his fellow (Good and Neutral) party members were doing the same alongside him. He killed a few Vampires and helped to kill a giant undead worm thing, as well as preventing someone from casting a powerful spell that would have killed a large percentage of Durkon's "family", and this seems actually Good. He even killed the bbeg, figured it out way before everyone else, and prepared accordingly, with zero throats of Good party members slit, in fact making friends with ship crew.

Heck, even in the last book the evil-est thing he did was hit Durkon with a tree, which he got an instant punishment and in this book he apologized for it. And on the list of good things, he aided in the escape of two people who had only done him harm: Enor and Gannji.

The last time he did something truly evil was in DStP where he was faking character growth whereas in these last two books he's been able to become a better person, conversing normally with people by the end of this book.

In the OOTS universe, at least in the eyes of the Deva who judged Roy, trying to be good is what makes it. Most people can't look back on things, and feel guilty but don't want to face it, instead diving deeper into evil. Belkar is trying to be better, so that makes all the difference, in terms of the afterlife anyway. Belkar is doing some hardcore introspection and is making conscious choices to be better.

We will probably never know how Belkar feels about Solt Lorkyurg, because probably no one will remind him of it. We probably won't know how he feels about killing the Oracle, since they lost that memory because of the charm. But we know how Belkar feels about his actions right now, for the most part, and he knows what he's doing is either right or wrong and is taking steps on his own to go to the right side of that.

When Belkar dies, next stop: Chaotic Neutral afterlife. Or maybe he'll get to CG and get to live out his perfect fantasy with just him, Shojo, and Scruffy. Anyway, the fact he's trying will put him higher than CE.

[Fyraltari]

This! The placement of that one panel with previously-apparently-just-drunk Roy now looking thoroughly sick right between Durkon mentioning the Sphinx Pox looks to me like a pretty blatant hint that he's suffering it. Which may be problematic later.

That disease has an incubation period of five weeks.

[Wizard_Lizard]

read thestrip a little late but...
Yes. Elan is the best.

[Liquor Box]

"On the road to CN" is downright common for people to say about him. Which I would call significantly different than "better person than he was."

It depends where the bar is between neutral and evil though. I don't think the bar is very high - we got no indication that V fell to evil after his/her genocide, even before feeling regret (and I think feeling regret after committing genocide doesn't really exculpate you).

It also depends on whether the Giant measures good vs evil in terms of intent/feeling or outcomes.

What's the worst think Belkar's done since the thieves guild plot? Because the best thing he's done is make a significant contribution to saving the world at great personal risk and what will probably turn out to be great personal sacrifice.


At which point I revert to my trusty old "Darth Vader retired on the beach" analogy. Thise kids aren't any less dead, and he's not any less Evil, despite that he hasn't killed anyone in months and has just been sipping space mai tais.

I think your analogy fails for the reason above. He's actively doing good. In the current story line he did more good than Durkon's mother (whose clearly intended to be good) - in terms of outcomes he's a long way in the black this storyline.

Even in terms of motive/intent, in my opinion there have been clear indication that he is generally better at not hurting people - it's not retiring, it's carrying on doing what you were doing but making a conscious and succesful effort to minimise (although not eliminate) the amount of evil he's doing as he goes about it.

[hroþila]

Peelee, I think the issue here is that you're not objecting to people actually saying that Belkar is CN, or definitely going to be redeemed, or even on the road to redemption/CN. You're reacting to people saying Belkar is better/less Evil than he was, which I would think is not a controversial statement in itself.

The way he has been lately is perfectly compatible with having an Evil alignment, and most Evil characters share the traits he's just acquiring. But being an Evil guy with some capacity for empathy and with some vague urge to be better is surely closer to the CN cutoff point than being an Evil guy with no capacity for empathy whatsoever.

[mjasghar]

This! The placement of that one panel with previously-apparently-just-drunk Roy now looking thoroughly sick right between Durkon mentioning the Sphinx Pox looks to me like a pretty blatant hint that he's suffering it. Which may be problematic later.

No
It’s a 4th wall breaking reference to the discussion of the Sphinx pox on the forums etc done for humour

[D.One]

Sphinx pot appeared in which page? I do not remember it.

I don't remember when the Sphinx Pot appeared, but I'm pretty sure it was during some trip... :smallbiggrin:

[Sir_Norbert]

No
It’s a 4th wall breaking reference to the discussion of the Sphinx pox on the forums etc done for humour

No, it's wrapping up the loose end because Rich knew that his readers would be making wild guesses about it. He doesn't read the forums any more and hasn't for a long time, but some things are really easy to guess.

And there was no fourth-wall breaking involved. No-one spoke directly to the reader. All that happened was an in-universe event being shown to us, in the normal way.

[Jannoire]

Sphinx pox will never die in our hearts!

But with sphinx pox in our hearts, we will die...


This! The placement of that one panel with previously-apparently-just-drunk Roy now looking thoroughly sick right between Durkon mentioning the Sphinx Pox looks to me like a pretty blatant hint that he's suffering it. Which may be problematic later.

Plus, he even started talking in riddles in the last strip!

[drazen]

I'd guess that she wouldn't pick up assassin due to the requirements, namely the one where she has to be Evil and kill one person for the sole reason of picking up the class.

Author doesn't explicitly follow D&D, and Haley did kill Crystal. What other multiclass would make sense for a rogue looking to become more proficient with a short blade? Or is that more of a skill/feat that can be picked up? I don't know all the fiddly details of these things.

[Draconi Redfir]

He doesn't read the forums any more and hasn't for a long time, but some things are really easy to guess.

i think he has at least some loose idea about what's being said in the forums. Both "Greg" and "Durkon*" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html) are referenced in the comic after both had been used as names for the High-Priest of Hel by the Forums for some time.

maybe someone he knows reads the forums and talks about the goings-on every so often. *shrug*

[Fyraltari]

Both "Greg" and "Durkon*" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html) are referenced in the comic after both had been used as names for the High-Priest of Hel by the Forums for some time.

I am 70% sure you have that backwards.

[Peelee]

i think he has at least some loose idea about what's being said in the forums. Both "Greg" and "Durkon*" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html) are referenced in the comic after both had been used as names for the High-Priest of Hel by the Forums for some time.

maybe someone he knows reads the forums and talks about the goings-on every so often. *shrug*

I'm like 99% sure that comic predated people using those names, and was why people used them.

[Draconi Redfir]

all i know is the Wiki says otherwise. (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/High_Priest_of_Hel)



When his position as High Priest of Hel was known, he was mostly known by that title alone. But since he abdicated the position, the title is confusing as he technically is not currently the High Priest of Hel, and another vampire is. On the discussion boards, the Number of Character Appearances thread refers to him as "Durkon"*. The Class and Level Geekery thread refers to him as Greg. Both names are references to comic #1030, "Naming Names".

if i'm wrong then the wiki is wrong:smalltongue:

edit: Okay nevermind. apparently it says both names are references TO that comic page, not referenced IN that comic page.


i'm wrong. nevermind.

[Schroeswald]

I will point out that we do know that The Giant still reads the forums, as of a couple days ago he made a post responding to a thread about calendars, a few weeks ago he made a post about what TDO’s plan and a few months ago he made a few about how the gods work, while (at least according to the outdated FAQ but maybe another post) he doesn’t change his story to appease forumites it’s not out of the question that he added this because he read the speculation (I doubt it though, it is something of a loose end that would feel weird to not get even a passing mention of).

Author doesn't explicitly follow D&D, and Haley did kill Crystal. What other multiclass would make sense for a rogue looking to become more proficient with a short blade? Or is that more of a skill/feat that can be picked up? I don't know all the fiddly details of these things.
The Assasin’s class entire point seems to me to be for killing stealthily and evily, that’s why it’s requirements are related to those two things, Assassin has a very negative connotation so I’d doubt the Giant would say “let’s ignore the rules about Assassins and make Haley one” (oh and she did have a reason to kill Crystal, to stop her from killing more people, else she would have been doing some redemption of her own this book). And I’m pretty sure that all Haley would even want to pick up is a Weapon Focus (which she doesn’t even have for her main weapon), Rogues already do good enough with daggers/short swords as it is.

[Riftwolf]

She could be training up Weapon Finesse, or even just getting in some practice with close combat because she's rusty on it (which isn't a d&d mechanic, but is a real world one)

[Grey Watcher]

She could be training up Weapon Finesse, or even just getting in some practice with close combat because she's rusty on it (which isn't a d&d mechanic, but is a real world one)

Yeah, the attack of opportunity rules can be a bit of challenge to remember, so some cramming does seem in order. :smalltongue:

[Monstar3014]

I strongly suspect the recipient of the Sending to be the next comic's cliffhanger. Either A: the recipient is dead/incapacitated or B: somehow it's intercepted/ too late. The Airship runs at the Speed of Plot so they'll show up AS Xykon realizes the gate is underneath him and not behind one of the doors.

I'm so proud of everyone growing up so much; Haley planning ahead and compensating for her weakness, Belkar caring about the plot. It's great to see Elan as such a great leader and demonstrate his high Charisma score.

Great work, Giant!

[Peelee]

I think both good and evil need to be constantly reinforced in thought and deed or they wear down towards neutral, and Belkar's actions this book don't seem evil (or good) in the slightest to me. I'd call him capital-n Neutral, but I don't really know how DnD alignment works.
So Vader kills a bunch of kids and goes to the beach, so he's now Neutral because he's not actively killing kids? Nope, I don't buy it. And I highly doubt the Nine Hells or Abyss would either.

What's the worst think Belkar's done since the thieves guild plot?
See above.

Because the best thing he's done is make a significant contribution to saving the world at great personal risk and what will probably turn out to be great personal sacrifice.
Tarquin made a significant contribution to saving the world by giving the Order help, including a flying carpet. If Nale had killed Tarquin just then, would he have been Neutral because his last acts were helping to save the world?

Belkar isn't in this to save the world. At best, he wants the world to not end. That's as noble as Xykon (who, I should point out, literally said he didn't want the world to end). I'll be saving the party poppers.

I think your analogy fails for the reason above. He's actively doing good.
No, he's actively doing what he wants to, and it just so happens to align with something that's good. If I fired three shots into a crowd and the bullets all hit people who were kidnapping a child and attempting to kill the parents, would you argue that i was actively doing good, or that I just got damned lucky?

Peelee, I think the issue here is that you're not objecting to people actually saying that Belkar is CN, or definitely going to be redeemed, or even on the road to redemption/CN.
No, I'm pretty much objecting to people saying Belkar is CN. I am in spirit objecting that he's definitely going to be redeemed/on the road to redemption, almost entirely because he doesn't give a hoot about it and if he doesn't why the hell should I (or anyone else, for that matter)? Redemption should go to people who actually want it. But I realize that is unlikely given all of the foreshadowing (such as his speech on how people change gradually, or the clasp which can super easily indicate that he's no longer Evil). It's mostly me voicing how I'm not terribly thrilled with how it looks like Belkar's story is going to go, especially since we have a paladin saying directly to someone that did want redemption and was trying (albeit in a severely misguided way) that redemption is a rare and special thing. How rare and special is it when some jackhole who doesn't even care about it can just stumble across it?

[Petrocorus]

To be fair to belkar, I don't think he's stabbed a random stranger for no reason since the gladiator pit. And that was at least two weeks ago!
For Thor's sake, it has only been a couple of weeks indeed.
Is there a timeline of important events of the OotS? I'm losing tracks of time between events.


This! The placement of that one panel with previously-apparently-just-drunk Roy now looking thoroughly sick right between Durkon mentioning the Sphinx Pox looks to me like a pretty blatant hint that he's suffering it. Which may be problematic later.

This is perfectly possible. The placement is indeed conspicuous. Panels 8 and 9 could perfectly have been inverted.


Panels 8 and 9 could perfectly have been inverted.
Wait, is this sentence proper English?
How do i translate past conditional in English?

[Peelee]

Wait, is this sentence proper English?
How do i translate past conditional in English?

"Perfectly" could have been left off entirely, or put at the end of that sentence for a slightly more natural read.

[Petrocorus]

"Perfectly" could have been left off entirely, or put at the end of that sentence for a slightly more natural read.

Thank you.

[Lescha]

Guys, this is the first time I am writing to this forum, so please forgive me if this is a dumb question or have been discussed earlier or whatever.
Does "end of this book" also mean "end of OOTS comic", or not?
I remember The Giant saying something a long time ago, about how plot will end "before the end of the year", and then making clear he meant "in-plot year".
Thanks a bunch!

[Peelee]

Guys, this is the first time I am writing to this forum, so please forgive me if this is a dumb question or have been discussed earlier or whatever.
I'll never forgive you!:smalltongue:

Does "end of this book" also mean "end of OOTS comic", or not?
I remember The Giant saying something a long time ago, about how plot will end "before the end of the year", and then making clear he meant "in-plot year".
Thanks a bunch!

Nah, it's not the end of the comic. The online comic is broken up into several books. Each book has its own overarching theme and plotlines that play into the larger, overall entire-comic-plot. There are five books out now, the next strip is going to be the end of the sixth book, and the rest of the comic will be the seventh book (and the final book in the online comic, IIRC).

There's going to be a hiatus in all likelihood, but there will be more comic afterwards.

[hamishspence]

It's the end of this book, not of the comic as a whole. However, it's been stated that there will be 7 books (not counting prequels, side stories, etc) - and this one is book 6.

As to "end of the year" that's Belkar's prophesy

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

and studies of the timeline have shown that there's a few weeks of in-universe time left.

[dmc91356]

There is one more book that will contain the strips from 1190 through the end of the story. The Giant has confirmed that this is the second to last book just ending and that 1189 will be the last strip.

Pelee - I think I'm with you on the Belkar thing. I thing he is still a CE little bastard, who is finally getting rudimentary emotions other than anger, greed, selfishness and hate. I don't think he is near CN, and to me, the most appropriate ending for him would be to finally figure out that maybe he did something wrong somewhere and should do something about it and then, WHAM, he dies right then and there and we see him in the CE afterlife. That would make for a nice ending IMO.

[understatement]

Durkon, you clever dwarf.

Drunk ROY: the sequel.

Is V Sending to Serini? Redcloak? the paladins? (I'm guessing the latter, probably)

[happycrow]

I need a Bag Of Adorable Tucking for Christmas.

Holy character development, half-man!

[happycrow]

So Vader kills a bunch of kids and goes to the beach, so he's now Neutral because he's not actively killing kids? Nope, I don't buy it. And I highly doubt the Nine Hells or Abyss would either.

Regardless of whether that would hold, we do see character development here. An interest in the story, courtesy given for its own sake without prodding or expectation of gain, and the associated "giving a toss what people think" indicate that something has shifted. Enough? I don't know.

[Bedinsis]

I see a lot of speculation that next page will reveal something. Quite understandable, since last book ended with the reveal that the entity controlling Durkon's body wasn't Durkon, and the second to last book ended with the reveal that there is a planet within the snarl.

Something that surprised me was that Vaarsuvius apparently can cast Sending. I did not know they could do that.

The thing I wonder about is the "the artifact" and the "appropriate vessel" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html) the fiends talked about. Does that mean Sabine will possess someone's body? I dunno, it's just that the fiends and Sabine were entirely unmentioned for the entirety of this book, save for that page. Feels like a cut-away if it isn't followed up on.

[Lescha]

I'll never forgive you!:smalltongue:


Nah, it's not the end of the comic. The online comic is broken up into several books. Each book has its own overarching theme and plotlines that play into the larger, overall entire-comic-plot. There are five books out now, the next strip is going to be the end of the sixth book, and the rest of the comic will be the seventh book (and the final book in the online comic, IIRC).

There's going to be a hiatus in all likelihood, but there will be more comic afterwards.


It's the end of this book, not of the comic as a whole. However, it's been stated that there will be 7 books (not counting prequels, side stories, etc) - and this one is book 6.

As to "end of the year" that's Belkar's prophesy

and studies of the timeline have shown that there's a few weeks of in-universe time left.


There is one more book that will contain the strips from 1190 through the end of the story. The Giant has confirmed that this is the second to last book just ending and that 1189 will be the last strip.

Pelee - I think I'm with you on the Belkar thing. I thing he is still a CE little bastard, who is finally getting rudimentary emotions other than anger, greed, selfishness and hate. I don't think he is near CN, and to me, the most appropriate ending for him would be to finally figure out that maybe he did something wrong somewhere and should do something about it and then, WHAM, he dies right then and there and we see him in the CE afterlife. That would make for a nice ending IMO.


Ah, got it!
Thanks all!

[Peelee]

Regardless of whether that would hold, we do see character development here. An interest in the story, courtesy given for its own sake without prodding or expectation of gain, and the associated "giving a toss what people think" indicate that something has shifted. Enough? I don't know.

Again, I do not and have never contested character development. What I contest is the idea that "character development" means "is becoming more Good." He could go through character development and separately become more Good. But arguments based on "he is more Good, because there is character development" are not ever going to fly with me.

[Emperor Time]

Glad to hear that none of them will be dying from Sphinx Pox after all. Also it nice that Elan is getting Minrah up to date on everything that happen to the party before she joined.

[bunsen_h]

Re: Belkar... how sure are we that that's really Belkar in there? "So, uh... wanna fill me in on my history? Because I, uh, wasn't paying attention." And I don't want to blow my characterization.

Re: V, I could see a message to their former partner and family: a simple apology, not trying to justify what they'd done or ask forgiveness. Something like Miles's letter to Ekaterin in Bujold's A Civil Campaign, though losing quite a bit for being crunched down to 25 words.

[ETA:] Re: the comic's title, I'm getting a bit of a headache trying to figure out the relationship between the world's unknown axial tilt, the ship's known course directly northwards, the time of year, and the sun being on the horizon (presumably sunset).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Again, I do not and have never contested character development. What I contest is the idea that "character development" means "is becoming more Good." He could go through character development and separately become more Good. But arguments based on "he is more Good, because there is character development" are not ever going to fly with me.

Yeah, if character development=Good, then Redcloak is Good. Good equals Good, and character development means you're less of a cardboard cutout. And lets be real here, Belkar is more of a low-toner photocopy of a blurry picture of a cardboard cutout.

[Petrocorus]

Concerning Belkar, he doesn't seem to be any Good or even Neutral. But does seem to be less Evil.


Re: Belkar... how sure are we that that's really Belkar in there? "So, uh... wanna fill me in on my history? Because I, uh, wasn't paying attention." And I don't want to blow my characterization.

You mean to tell me that Belkar is in fact RedCloak's niece?



Re: V, I could see a message to their former partner and family: a simple apology, not trying to justify what they'd done or ask forgiveness. Something like Miles's letter to Ekaterin in Bujold's A Civil Campaign, though losing quite a bit for being crunched down to 25 words.

Oh my... a Vorkosigan reference. I don't see many of that this days.



[ETA:] Re: the comic's title, I'm getting a bit of a headache trying to figure out the relationship between the world's unknown axial tilt, the ship's known course directly northwards, the time of year, and the sun being on the horizon (presumably sunset).
I though when i first read this strip that the title was referencing the position of the ship in regards of the sun facing the reader.

[Doug Lampert]

Yeah, if character development=Good, then Redcloak is Good. Good equals Good, and character development means you're less of a cardboard cutout. And lets be real here, Belkar is more of a low-toner photocopy of a blurry picture of a cardboard cutout.

Yes, but now he's a HIGHER RESOLUTION low-toner photocopy of a blurry picture of a cardboard cutout.

Just get those magical CSI image analysis tools I see on TV to work on it, and he'll be a real boy in no time at all.

Admittedly, he'd be a CE real boy, but it would be something.

[bunsen_h]

Oh my... a Vorkosigan reference. I don't see many of that this days.

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. Love and miss you terribly." No wait for a reply.


I though when i first read this strip that the title was referencing the position of the ship in regards of the sun facing the reader.

If we assume that the Mechane is flying directly left-to-right across the page and is heading due north, then our viewpoint is looking directly west. That puts the sun at sunset, slightly left of centre in the panel, at a little bit south of west. But just at this moment, the 3D relationship between that, the time of year, the Mechane's latitude, and the axial tilt is beyond me. I don't have a sextant (nor any of the sort-of homophones). I wouldn't be surprised if Rich had worked all of that out in detail, to get the sun's position correct in the strip.

[Peelee]

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. Love and miss you terribly." No wait for a reply.

I like the first sentence, not the second so much.

[bunsen_h]

I like the first sentence, not the second so much.

I agree with you, in fact. I couldn't think of a way to express something like it that wouldn't put any implied pressure on Inkyrius to reciprocate, but I think it's appropriate for V to say something to make clear that they hadn't just dropped all of the emotions of the relationship -- that they hadn't retreated further into the purely-academic mode that was the core of the relationship failure.

[factotum]

I wouldn't be surprised if Rich had worked all of that out in detail, to get the sun's position correct in the strip.

Conversely, I wouldn't be surprised if Rich put the sun in the West because it's setting and was done with it, since all that stuff about axial tilt and time of year are utterly irrelevant to the story.

[Peelee]

I agree with you, in fact. I couldn't think of a way to express something like it that wouldn't put any implied pressure on Inkyrius to reciprocate, but I think it's appropriate for V to say something to make clear that they hadn't just dropped all of the emotions of the relationship -- that they hadn't retreated further into the purely-academic mode that was the core of the relationship failure.

Heck, the main reason I didn't try my hand at coming up with a way to close it was pretty similar, I couldn't think of a way to do it! Because I'm completely on board with your train of thought there.

[Ekul]

I agree with you, in fact. I couldn't think of a way to express something like it that wouldn't put any implied pressure on Inkyrius to reciprocate, but I think it's appropriate for V to say something to make clear that they hadn't just dropped all of the emotions of the relationship -- that they hadn't retreated further into the purely-academic mode that was the core of the relationship failure.

It's important to remember that Inkyrius never claimed V is completely unloving, merely that V loved their magic more than their partner. Any contrition that V could muster ought to address that, either conceding that it's true, or that it was a mistake to focus on their magic to such an extreme.

Essentially, I don't think it's in question that V loves their family. The question is, are they willing to put their own selfish pursuits of power aside for the sake of their family?

[RatElemental]

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. But I only get Twenty-five." Maybe?

I'd probably go with something more like:
"Words cannot express how sorry I am. I do not expect forgiveness, just be safe: world at stake. My mentor may be able to help."

[Peelee]

"Words cannot express how sorry I am. I do not expect forgiveness, just be safe: world at stake. My mentor may be able to help."

Oooohh, I like that one.

[Doug Lampert]

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. Love and miss you terribly." No wait for a reply.


I like the first sentence, not the second so much.

Ditto on both. "Love and miss you terribly" sounds like a plea to be forgiven or taken back.


I'd probably go with something more like:
"Words cannot express how sorry I am. I do not expect forgiveness, just be safe: world at stake. My mentor may be able to help."

Better. I might go with:

"I am so sorry. You were right. Have a good life and take care of the children. World at risk, please talk to my mentor."

Then you need to send to the mentor too. You can save a word by remembering the mentor's name.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Tarquin made a significant contribution to saving the world by giving the Order help, including a flying carpet. If Nale had killed Tarquin just then, would he have been Neutral because his last acts were helping to save the world?

Belkar isn't in this to save the world. At best, he wants the world to not end. That's as noble as Xykon (who, I should point out, literally said he didn't want the world to end). I'll be saving the party poppers.

First of all, those are false equivalencies. Tarquin helped them, while also fighting to destroy their team right after. Belkar on the other hand has done nothing but help. Not wanting the world to end might be "just as noble as Xykon" but that's like saying the worst person ever didn't want the world to end and therefore some kid who doesn't want the world to end is as bad as them... Xykon is actively trying to RULE the world, and Belkar is taking steps that are SAVING it from Xykon AND whoever wants to destroy it, these steps including having Elan remind him of the plot.


No, he's actively doing what he wants to, and it just so happens to align with something that's good. If I fired three shots into a crowd and the bullets all hit people who were kidnapping a child and attempting to kill the parents, would you argue that i was actively doing good, or that I just got damned lucky?

Is he? He's doing what he wants to... For a good purpose. He got the protection from evil charm, even though it hurt him. He got the feather fall thing so he could survive a very possible situation that could happen in the course of doing good things. He had a casual conversation with V about his new dagger, which he wants to use to kill an Evil Vampire. Just because no one else knew Greg was Evil doesn't mean he wasn't doing an inherently Good thing.

And here's another false equivalency: him seeing an Evil individual and taking steps to defeat them soundly, and you shooting entirely randomly into a crowd, are not equal. You don't know there's anyone evil in the crowd. You're just being CE. Belkar has killed no one by accident (hard to do with melee weapons) and especially not anyone Good.


No, I'm pretty much objecting to people saying Belkar is CN. I am in spirit objecting that he's definitely going to be redeemed/on the road to redemption, almost entirely because he doesn't give a hoot about it and if he doesn't why the hell should I (or anyone else, for that matter)? Redemption should go to people who actually want it. But I realize that is unlikely given all of the foreshadowing (such as his speech on how people change gradually, or the clasp which can super easily indicate that he's no longer Evil). It's mostly me voicing how I'm not terribly thrilled with how it looks like Belkar's story is going to go, especially since we have a paladin saying directly to someone that did want redemption and was trying (albeit in a severely misguided way) that redemption is a rare and special thing. How rare and special is it when some jackhole who doesn't even care about it can just stumble across it?

He apparently gives a hoot about it through the conversations he's had this book. And his lamenting of Durkon's death, it's obviously something he regrets if he fake-blames Durkon for it. He cares and is trying.

I say he's on the road to N. Not saying he's there already, hel no, he's still hurt by the charm, isn't he? Not saying he'll ever get there, not before his death, but given his actions leading up to it he's not going to go to the CE afterlife. He's going to go to Neutral, or Chaotic Good, and everyone is going to cry at his grave, not just Elan. And that makes a pretty good story, I feel like. What I do agree with is that his change would add very little to the story.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Author doesn't explicitly follow D&D, and Haley did kill Crystal. What other multiclass would make sense for a rogue looking to become more proficient with a short blade? Or is that more of a skill/feat that can be picked up? I don't know all the fiddly details of these things.

Dashing Swordsman? I feel a little weird because everyone's talking as if the answer isn't "she's also taking a level in this prestige class", and I (up to now) thought that was the glaringly obvious answer.

Haley already has a propensity for puns and banter during combat, a high charisma score, and a boyfriend who can enable her/be enabled by her wordplay combos.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Dashing Swordsman? I feel a little weird because everyone's talking as if the answer isn't "she's also taking a level in this prestige class", and I (up to now) thought that was the glaringly obvious answer.

Haley already has a propensity for puns and banter during combat, a high charisma score, and a boyfriend who can enable her/be enabled by her wordplay combos.

She might have high Charisma, but the Dagger already uses Dexterity, which she seems to have a lot of with her bow. I don't see her punning that much against per possible repertoire of opponents with that dagger, Oona and a few Bugbears.

[Schroeswald]

She might have high Charisma, but the Dagger already uses Dexterity, which she seems to have a lot of with her bow. I don't see her punning that much against per possible repertoire of opponents with that dagger, Oona and a few Bugbears.

Also it requires a rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), which Haley isn’t using.

[D.One]

She might have high Charisma, but the Dagger already uses Dexterity, which she seems to have a lot of with her bow. I don't see her punning that much against per possible repertoire of opponents with that dagger, Oona and a few Bugbears.

:elan::haley: "We have a couple of sharp words for you!"


Also it requires a rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), which Haley isn’t using.

huh... Dashing Knifewoman? :smalltongue:



PS: I don't really think Haley is trying to get Dashing Swordsman or any equivalent, but I'm a bit puzzled by this scene, because, if it was just her getting more familiarity with melee fighting, I should point out that she's already quite effective with that (last panel) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1127.html).

[RatElemental]

Obviously Haley is taking a level in the here-to-fore unmentioned prestige class known as "Noble Scoundrel." It grants access to the much coveted "Trick up my sleeve" class ability that does whatever the plot needs it to do at the time.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Also it requires a rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), which Haley isn’t using.

Technically it doesn't say only when using a rapier. He could just be saying that because it's the most traditional weapon for dashing swordsmen and they both use rapiers, and the charisma benefit applies to all one handed piercing melee weapons. I admit it does significantly lower the odds of it being this overall though. I'd still put some bet on it being something from that obscure book though, even if it's not exactly dashing swordsman.

(The dashing swordspair concept has narrative potential, at least.)

[Themrys]

I strongly suspect the recipient of the Sending to be the next comic's cliffhanger. Either A: the recipient is dead/incapacitated or B: somehow it's intercepted/ too late. The Airship runs at the Speed of Plot so they'll show up AS Xykon realizes the gate is underneath him and not behind one of the doors.


I didn't want to give the Giant ideas, but since you mention it anyways: The Evil guys (you know who, forgot what they're called) could use the time V owes them at just that exact moment and make V send something entirely different from what V intended.

That makes it unlikely V is contacting Inky and the kids. Messing up V's private life may be fun for some Evil guys, but they seem to have a secret plan that's much more important to them.


Or perhaps the Sending works perfectly and V is indeed contacting Inky. After all, V could have learnt from Hilgya's example and have decided to show a bit more emotion. (I know people hate her, but come on, she devoted years of her life to finding Durkon and then wasted two spells on making sure he understands how much he hurt her - that's probably more passion than V has shown in the entirety of time Inky and V were happily married. Whatever Durkon thinks of her reaction, he certainly can't complain that she doesn't seem to care. Plus, Hilgya demonstrated it is totally possible to 'solve' relationship problems with magic, an approach that might have inspired V to use a (much less offensive) spell to tackle V's marriage problems.)

It is interesting to contrast the way V and Hilgya deal with emotions. They react pretty much the same when it comes to anger (and both have a habit of using excessive violence), but while Hilgya is very emotional in other ways, too, V seems to not strongly express any other emotion besides anger. (And guilt, perhaps, but that was genocide level guilt and V ran away, possibly so the others would not witness this emotional outbreak)

Could reflect their religions - V doesn't talk about religion often, but did mention some ancient elven gods of knowledge who likely approve of V's decisions to go save the world instead of making up with Inky, while Loki approves of using fire as default approach to any problem.

(Interestingly, the way Durkon deals with his love life ALSO reflects his belief ... impregnating a woman and then leaving her does sound like something Thor would do. For entirely different reasons, but still. Interesting coincidence. Unlike V and Hilgya, I don't think the author intended it in his case.)

[Petrocorus]

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. Love and miss you terribly." No wait for a reply.

I wouldn't remember this. I read all the novels in French and honestly A Civil Campaign is not my favorite one.



If we assume that the Mechane is flying directly left-to-right across the page and is heading due north, then our viewpoint is looking directly west. That puts the sun at sunset, slightly left of centre in the panel, at a little bit south of west. But just at this moment, the 3D relationship between that, the time of year, the Mechane's latitude, and the axial tilt is beyond me. I don't have a sextant (nor any of the sort-of homophones). I wouldn't be surprised if Rich had worked all of that out in detail, to get the sun's position correct in the strip.
The ship is going from left to right while the sunlight is going west to "east", "east" actually being the viewer. So the direction of the sunlight from the page to the reader is perpendicular to the direction of the shuip from left to right. This is how understand it.



Or perhaps the Sending works .....intended it in his case.)
Did we not already had this debate about Hilgya and Durkon like 2 or 3 thread ago?

[Quizatzhaderac]

[ETA:] Re: the comic's title, I'm getting a bit of a headache trying to figure out the relationship between the world's unknown axial tilt, the ship's known course directly northwards, the time of year, and the sun being on the horizon (presumably sunset).West isn't actually defined outside of the Earth. To generalize I'd say it's the opposite direction that the planet is spinning. So therefore the sun/moon / stars/ et cetra always set in the "west".

Although, both east and west are perpendicular to the north under basically any scheme to use those words.

If I had to guess everything from the comic, I'd say it's mid afternoon (on the equator) and the sun is setting in the southwestern sky (the sun starts to appear further south the more north you are).

[Frozenstep]

Something that surprised me was that Vaarsuvius apparently can cast Sending. I did not know they could do that.

For a wizard, it's just a matter of knowing the spell. We've already seen V cast it before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0741.html)

[Dion]

Conversely, I wouldn't be surprised if Rich put the sun in the West because it's setting and was done with it, since all that stuff about axial tilt and time of year are utterly irrelevant to the story.

Hey, that reminds me!

I remember a GRRM interview where he promised to explain the screwy winter thing going on in his world.

Did anyone ever bother to actually do that?

[Coventry]

I think V is Sending to Inkyrius.

"Taking care of what needs to be done" suggests that V is sending to Hin'jo.

But a small part of my brain keeps shouting, "If V really is exhibiting character growth, what about sending to Aardinarius?"

V's old master of the arcane would certainly be able to cover for V the next time V gets whisked away by the deal he made with the I.F.C.C.

[Ghosty]

Hey, that reminds me!

I remember a GRRM interview where he promised to explain the screwy winter thing going on in his world.

Did anyone ever bother to actually do that?

LOL. 'They forgot.' Seemed to explain a lot of their editorial decisions when the book material ran out.

About factotum's point, I'd argue it does matter, if length of day had anything to do with the plot. They're far enough north, near enough to the time of the Solstice, that I'm surprised they have any daylight at all. There are authors, a lot of them in the hard sci-fi realm, that famously stress a lot about world-creation questions like those. Then again, for many of them, their settings are better fleshed out and have better developed characterization than their actual characters...

For the Giant, OTOH, he doesn't need the setting to tell the story, and so I think factotum's interpretation is more likely.

I had thought Stickworld and its New Year mirrored our world, and thus we could get a clue about how long Belkar has left, but you all have thoroughly explained already that Azure City's, and therefore the Oracle's, New Year, has nothing to do with the North's Winter Solstice. Which gives the Giant a bit of wiggle room concerning when he kills him.

[Squire Doodad]

"Taking care of what needs to be done" suggests that V is sending to Hin'jo.

But a small part of my brain keeps shouting, "If V really is exhibiting character growth, what about sending to Aardinarius?"

V's old master of the arcane would certainly be able to cover for V the next time V gets whisked away by the deal he made with the I.F.C.C.

Aardi is going to do 50 shots of Greater Teleport and warp right to the airship by tomorrow.

Actually, how far would you guys say the northish half of the Western continent would be from the North Pole? I don't know where Ivyleaf is in particular, but would a high level mage be able to teleport their way there in 3 days?

[RatElemental]

Aardi is going to do 50 shots of Greater Teleport and warp right to the airship by tomorrow.

Actually, how far would you guys say the northish half of the Western continent would be from the North Pole? I don't know where Ivyleaf is in particular, but would a high level mage be able to teleport their way there in 3 days?

Depends on how high level. A 13th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) level wizard could do it regardless of distances involved though and in less than 6 seconds. A 9th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) level wizard could circumnavigate the earth in 12 seconds as long as they have 20 intelligence, and a 10th could do it as long as they have 15 int.

There's a lot of reasons V banned conjuration, and many of them aren't in character ones.

[Vendanna]

Aardi is going to do 50 shots of Greater Teleport and warp right to the airship by tomorrow.

Actually, how far would you guys say the northish half of the Western continent would be from the North Pole? I don't know where Ivyleaf is in particular, but would a high level mage be able to teleport their way there in 3 days?

A high level mage can travel fast quite (it can planeshift to other plane then planeshift somewhere in the north pole) if you don't worry about where you spawn. you can also use a wish if you need to be in an exact point without error (dunno if limited wish can accomplish that).

you can also buy a ton of low level scrolls to reach there, or get your cleric friend to cast wind walk, or other means to reach there) heck if you can cast gate, you can also use planar ally to ask someone to give you a ride to your destination (like sabine did) which would be quite easy to get in this situation when the safety of the entire world is pending on a simple teleport.

[137beth]

I'd say that the "up a level, down a level" page is one of the early ones that does hold up reasonably well. Even if you aren't familiar with D&D 3.5, the different meanings of "level" are commonly used both in later iterations of D&D and in video games. The conflicting meanings of "spell" used in strip 12 are also understandable even to someone who isn't familiar with D&D.

[Squire Doodad]

A high level mage can travel fast quite (it can planeshift to other plane then planeshift somewhere in the north pole) if you don't worry about where you spawn. you can also use a wish if you need to be in an exact point without error (dunno if limited wish can accomplish that).

you can also buy a ton of low level scrolls to reach there, or get your cleric friend to cast wind walk, or other means to reach there) heck if you can cast gate, you can also use planar ally to ask someone to give you a ride to your destination (like sabine did) which would be quite easy to get in this situation when the safety of the entire world is pending on a simple teleport.

So two rounds of plane shift, and that leaves you within a few rounds of greater teleport. If you have enough slots to do 2 PS and at least one GT (plus maybe a compass/something to let you know where you are), you can go anywhere in the world.

[RatElemental]

So two rounds of plane shift, and that leaves you within a few rounds of greater teleport. If you have enough slots to do 2 PS and at least one GT (plus maybe a compass/something to let you know where you are), you can go anywhere in the world.

If you can cast greater teleport at all you don't need plane shift. You can be anywhere in the world with just greater teleport.

[Mariele]

I take offense at this page. The up a level/down a level/spell level gag was priceless. ;) I still love the early humor!

Can't wait for Monday. That'll definitely soften the dread that comes with the end of Thanksgiving break.

[factotum]

PS: I don't really think Haley is trying to get Dashing Swordsman or any equivalent, but I'm a bit puzzled by this scene, because, if it was just her getting more familiarity with melee fighting, I should point out that she's already quite effective with that (last panel) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1127.html).

Note what she's saying in that panel--despite the multiple ghost images, that was just a single Sneak Attack. She still gets the bonuses from that whether she's using a bow or a melee weapon, but it only works when (as in that case) the target is distracted by someone else--in a straight up face-to-face fight she can't use it, and so practice would be required.

[Kardwill]

"Better" in what sense? Because I'm arguing its not better in the "Good-Evil" sense, which is where redemption would come into play. Dream Shojo told Belkar to play the game or they'd boot him from the table. That doesn't equate to "don't be Evil."

He's taking other people's lives more seriously (even if he's still callous toward their feelings), occasionaly feels guilt, actively restrains himself from doing stuff that would be fun but "feel wrong". And I don't remember him actively doing evil stuff for a long time (since their departure from the empire of blood?), some murderhoboing that Haley, V and Roy also partake in. For several books, his "evil" has mostly been hollow bluster and callous jokes.

Caring about other peoples or pets doesn't mean that you're a parangon of Goodness and Pretty Flowers (tm), and he's still south of the alignment chart, but he's definitely getting less eeeeeevil.

Doesn't mean he's working toward a redemption. There's a difference between "stop being evil" and "make reparation for what you did"

[Jannoire]

There are five books out now, the next strip is going to be the end of the sixth book, and the rest of the comic will be the seventh book (and the final book in the online comic, IIRC).

The Giant said there will be exactly seven books, even if the seventh will be as thick as a phone book.

I was born in '95, what is a phone book?

[SlashDash]

I'd say that the "up a level, down a level" page is one of the early ones that does hold up reasonably well. Even if you aren't familiar with D&D 3.5, the different meanings of "level" are commonly used both in later iterations of D&D and in video games. The conflicting meanings of "spell" used in strip 12 are also understandable even to someone who isn't familiar with D&D.

But they might not know what TSR means

[hroþila]

But they might not know what TSR means
I never knew what TSR means exactly until I looked it up just now, but the context still made it obvious that it's whoever first developed the game's terminology.

[D.One]

Note what she's saying in that panel--despite the multiple ghost images, that was just a single Sneak Attack. She still gets the bonuses from that whether she's using a bow or a melee weapon, but it only works when (as in that case) the target is distracted by someone else--in a straight up face-to-face fight she can't use it, and so practice would be required.

Can't really remember if Sneak Attacks could happen more than once per round in 3.5. I'll have to consult the books later. Of course she can use a sneak attack in a straight up face-to-face fight, she has to use Bluff (that she has plenty) to feint. That, however, takes an standard action, so maybe she's training to get Improved Feint and turn it into a move action.


I never knew what TSR means exactly until I looked it up just now, but the context still made it obvious that it's whoever first developed the game's terminology.

WOW! Never knew that too. Tactical Studies Rules!!! :smalleek:

[Ghosty]

I never knew what TSR means exactly until I looked it up just now, but the context still made it obvious that it's whoever first developed the game's terminology.


...WOW! Never knew that too. Tactical Studies Rules!!! :smalleek:

I feel very, very old.

Time to dig through some boxes and see if I can find my old blue boxed D&D set, or the DM's Guide with the giant red pit fiend on the cover.

[Furious J]

WOW! Never knew that too. Tactical Studies Rules!!! :smalleek:

Tactical Studies – much like O'Doyle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVO3NJCPIoY) – rules.

[Peelee]

He's taking other people's lives more seriously (even if he's still callous toward their feelings), occasionaly feels guilt, actively restrains himself from doing stuff that would be fun but "feel wrong". And I don't remember him actively doing evil stuff for a long time (since their departure from the empire of blood?), some murderhoboing that Haley, V and Roy also partake in. For several books, his "evil" has mostly been hollow bluster and callous jokes.

Caring about other peoples or pets doesn't mean that you're a parangon of Goodness and Pretty Flowers (tm), and he's still south of the alignment chart, but he's definitely getting less eeeeeevil.
I would argue all that means he's getting less civil, not less Evil. Malack, after all, was a horrifically Evil monster who gladly chatted with a fellow cleric over tea, bonded with people, befriended people, etc.

If you run down the Evil road and then just stop, you aren't less Evil just because you stopped. He's no longer one-dimensional, he has character growth, he's more complex, all of these I readily admit to. He's less Evil? Not so much.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think messaging Lien or O-Chul is what's going to take us to a shot of the pole where the squad will be reporting back what they're seeing not a squad, not even a fire team. LP or OP. (Listening Post or Observation Post) :smallwink: (Pedantry mode off)

I never knew what TSR means exactly until I looked it up just now, but the context still made it obvious that it's whoever first developed the game's terminology.And Rich is actually wrong (or rather, leading the reader astray) with that gag. The AD&D 1e DMG and PHB cover the varied meanings of level.

[Quebbster]

And Rich is actually wrong (or rather, leading the reader astray) with that gag. The AD&D 1e DMG and PHB cover the varied meanings of level.
Huh. Almost as if they realized the different meanings could get confusing...

[skim172]

So V is probably Sending to Inky, but here's an idea: Any chance that V is actually Sending to his old master, Aarindarius?

Aarindarius is a high-level character who may have the firepower to directly take on Xykon one-on-one, which none of the Order currently can. He might be the most powerful ally currently available to the Order (who is not a deity bound by deity rules).

One could argue that V turning to Aarindarius for help reflects personal growth. V previously decided against seeking Aarindarius' aid in another dire situation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), out of pride and/or a refusal to admit personal defeat.

Granted, cutting off your own head is a bit more of a sacrifice than texting your old master "yo, sup, can u help wid dis lol".

It might feel a bit contrived, though, as Aarindarius hasn't been a part of the plot at all. It'd be like if Belkar's Aunt Judy suddenly showed up at the final battle with a machinegun.

Just an outside thought, partly borne from wondering how the Order could possibly defeat Xykon.