Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIX: Miracle on 39th Thread

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. How do I start?
The best and most obvious way to start is either a) Dark Imperium, or b) Know No Fear. This will get you a solid and relatively cheap start on either an Adeptus Astartes* army, or a Death Guard army. If you aren't starting the game with a friend, you can almost always offload the 'other side' that you don't want to recoup some of your money back. If you don't want to play Adeptus Astartes or Death Guard, you will almost definitely want to look into Start Collecting! boxes - with a few exceptions.

*Due to how GW uses the same Astartes models across several different Codecies, an 'Astartes' army - in this context - could mean Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Space Wolves, and, at the very outside, you could even start a Deathwatch army with Dark Imperium or KNF. The models found in Dark Imperium/KNF, work best with Dark Angels or Space Marines. But, until you have a Codex (or even just Datacards), you don't have to make that decision.

However, just having the models, isn't really enough to play the game - you will need a rulebook. Dark Imperium comes with a rulebook, whilst Know No Fear, doesn't. That being said, Games Workshop offers the core rules to play the game on their website. So, if you can't afford a rulebook, and you just want to start playing the game with your friends, as long as you're matching Power Rating, you should be mostly okay...Mostly.

Also, you need dice. ~30 is a good number to have. Any excess dice you have can be used for wound counters, or to keep track of Command Points (if you don't know what those are yet, that's fine). But, just as a frame of reference, the Inceptors you get in Dark Imperium/KNF, they roll 18 dice to hit. Additionally, try and have different colours of dice. It will speed up your games.

Also, you'll need Terrain. If you don't have terrain on the board, the game vastly swings to playing a certain way, and all other units that don't play that way, are terrible... You don't want that. But we'll circle back to this.

Additional Resources that you will want:
- Battlescribe; Battlescribe is a free App for Mobile and PC (however, you can pay for it to remove ads). It's incredibly useful as it contains all the rules for all your units - including points costs. This greatly increases your ability to play the Matched Play version of 40K, as all's you need to do is plug the units you have, into the App, and you get given an army list complete with rules. However, do be aware that in the real world, when playing a real game, most people don't want to read rules from your phone - however, running it from a tablet, or printing it out, is almost always accepted. Battlescribe is for you, not for your opponents.

- [Faction] Datacards; If you don't have a Codex, well, Battlescribe doesn't have rules for Stratagems. Your Faction's Datacards provide all the rules you need to run your chosen Factions' Stratagems, while also including all the cards you need to play Maelstrom Missions. Maelstrom is currently the most commonly played format of the game. But, if your playgroup - otherwise known as your 'metagame', or 'meta' - doesn't play Maelstrom, at least you've got all your Stratagems.

- Open War cards; Open War is exceptionally useful for newer players as it gives you rules for Missions you can play, without having to buy the rulebook. Because of the random nature of the cards - like Maelstrom - you can have a variety of experiences depending on how the cards draw. The rules for Open War also allow for what happens when player has more Points or higher Power Rating than their opponent. Which can sometimes act as a balancing factor. However, those 'extra rules' can be very swingy depending on the units or army you have, so the better idea is to simply try and even out the points costs and ignore those rules. :smallamused:
While Open War cards aren't required to play the game (GW offers the Core Rules for free), they will give you a decent experience of the game until you can get your hands on the rulebook and/or the most current edition of Chapter Approved.

- Spin-down Dice; What? :smallconfused: Okay, Magic: The Gathering (and others, but M:TG is the most obvious) produces spin-down d20s. These are d20s where the numbered sides are consecutively next to each other, which makes them incredibly useful as wound counters, Victory Point and Command Point trackers, additionally, they can't be accidentally picked up when you need more d6s to roll. They come in several different coloursm, just in case. GW themselves, sells 'Wound Trackers', but, they are in fact, just regular d10s.

...Points? ...Power Rating? What's the difference?
Both units of measurement are ways of keeping the game balanced. If one player's army is vastly superior to their opponent's, that's not a very fair game, is it? If you think that you're just going to 'put down everything you have on the table', well, that might work for smaller games. But once you get larger collections, what you have, and what your opponent has, may be very different collections and just...No.

Power Rating; Power Rating is the easiest method to play the game. Your unit is always Rated the same, regardless of what wargear has. Whether your model has a Chainsword, or Thunder Hammer, still costs the same. This makes it incredibly easy to make army lists because you just put down your unit without regards to wargear. However, if everything costs the same, then the Good Stuff, costs exactly the same as the Bad Stuff, so why isn't everyone taking the Good Stuff all the time? Power Rating is incredibly abusable and all's it takes it a slight desire to start winning games and then the whole thing is ruined. Power Rating is also problematic because the way Games Workshop - allegedly - arrives at a unit's Power Rating makes no sense. Additionally, with the ebb and flow of the meta, with certain units becoming more conducive to winning games than others, no unit in the game's Power Rating has ever been changed.

Points; Points are exclusively found in your Factions' Codecies (and Battlescribe). The way this works, is that everything has a points cost - even wargear. This means that Bad Stuff costs less points, whilst Good Stuff, costs more points. So, if you - or your opponents - want to start winning games, they're even further limited in what they can take. This is vastly more fair than using Power Rating to decide how to build your army. Additionally, Games Workshop releases points cost changes a few times a year, so, depending on your Codex's age, the points in the back may well be totally redundant, and you're going to want to pick up the most recent edition of Chapter Approved, which GW releases annually. Which is the downside. In order to keep it fair, points need to keep being re-balanced.

So, what's a good start then?
Dark Imperium; The Astartes side is 773 Points, with a Power Rating of 41. The Death Guard are 636 Points with a PR of 34.
Know No Fear; Astartes; 481 Points, PR 24. Death Guard; 456 Points, PR 25
(Using the most recent Codex for both Factions, and Chapter Approved 2018)

Know No Fear is a lot more fair. That being said, even in Dark Imperium, they are designed to be a start to an army, they are not an army, in and of themselves.

If you don't want Astartes or Death Guard, you're going to want to look at Start Collecting! with the following exceptions:
- Space Marines, Blood Angels and Primaris Space Wolves; The reason for this is easy. Know No Fear is cheaper, and better (and you can sell off the Death Guard half). The regular Space Wolves SC! box, is...Okay. If it doesn't have Primaris Marines and does have Thunderwolves, get that Space Wolf one.
- Craftworlds; A pile of Elite and Heavy units is not how you start a Craftworlds army. That being said, if your idea of Craftworlds, involves a bunch of <Wraith Construct> units (e.g; Craftworld Iyanden), then you should absolutely buy it. If it's want you want, get it.
- Orks; It's...Not great. While yes, it's a more legitimate start to an Ork army than Wraith-units to a Craftworlds army. It's just not a particularly good start.

Because the Start Collecting! boxes are not fixed models, their points costs and Power Rating is indeterminate at best, because some units are dual kits, and some units have a vast array of wargear available to them. Ask the Thread for optimal builds for particular kits or boxes.

Terrain - you mentioned it before. Talk about it, now.
Terrain...Is good. It slows down Melee armies from destroying you on Turn 1 or 2, and it increases your defense against Shooting attacks so you don't automatically lose on Turn 1 against a gunline. Wargaming terrain is an extremely fun hobby project where you can find hundreds of tutorials online to scratch-build almost anything you want. If you want to be even more creative than that, you can even theme your terrain to your army!

A good rule of thumb is that anywhere between 33% and 50% of your table space should be covered in terrain.
- 4x4' (low point games): You'll want 6-8 pieces of terrain with a combined total of a 1.3 - 2 foot square.
- 6x4': You'll want 8-12 pieces of terrain, combining between 2'x4' and 2x6'.

Not only that, but you'll also want (trust us) terrain that fully blocks Line of Sight. That is, terrain that is a solid mass that you can't see through. Examples might include Buildings or Statues. Small boards want at least one, and large boards want at least two. It's also a good idea to create terrain that partially blocks Line of Sight. That is, some of the terrain, you can't see through, but other parts, you can. A good example of this might be a shelled-out Ruin. Where the foundations of the Building are intact, and thus, built like a wall. While the upper levels of the Building have been hit by explosive attacks like an air raid, and thus the walls are not so intact and you can see through them.

If your community has a gaming hub (such as a gaming store, or club), if those places are any good, they should have enough terrain for all of their gaming tables, and you don't really need to worry about this. If your local hub doesn't have enough terrain for its tables - or its terrain is just...Bad, and for example, doesn't block LoS - see if you can get involved in your community and organise a terrain building hobby day, or a challenge month or something, where terrain made is donated to the hub. More, better and diverse terrain in your hub benefits everybody, and your community manager should be on board for such an idea.

Obviously, you can simply just buy Games Workshop terrain. But then you kind of only get to use what they can sell you. If that's what you want, well, it's less work than making your own terrain, that's for sure.

While we're here, a 4x4' board is typically used for games below 1000 Points (or <50 PR), and a 6x4' board is anything bigger. The rulebook - if you have one - will tell you this.

I've heard about Conquest. What's that about?
Well, first off, it's only available in select countries. If you happen to live in one of those countries...

Conquest Magazine is a subscription service with a total of 80 issues (4 per month). Over the course of almost two years, you will build up solid collections for Space Marines, Death Guard, and you will get a whole load of terrain. Additionally, the Magazine itself, comes with Missions, paints and paint brushes and will literally help you build up your hobby at a reasonable pace without overwhelming you.

Conquest is great for people with limited time and limited funds, but who still want to get into the hobby. The main issues with Conquest is that the models you get are fixed - so here's hoping you like Astartes and/or Death Guard - and that it takes almost two years to finish. So if you're looking to dive right into the hobby, and start playing lots of games within six months with a strong, personalised army...Then Conquest probably isn't for you.

On a personal note, if Conquest had been a Thing when I was a University student, I absolutely would have bought into it.

This is so expensive!
So is buying a gaming console, and a game every month. So is buying a bunch of power tools, buying wood and learning home carpentry. Warhammer is a hobby, same as anything else. If you want to spend a little bit of money, you can. There are game modes where GW attempts to tell you that you don't need to spend a lot of money (but in actual fact you do, if you want to be good at it). If you want to spend a lot of money on the hobby, you can do that, too.

It's not called 'plastic crack' for nothing, and it doesn't make significant others mad for no reason.

Most independent gaming stores will sell GW products at -20%, and of course there's 'Battlescribe & Datacards = A Codex'. But, additionally, you can search internet to see if people are selling their models at a decent price. There are very affordable - and mostly safe - ways to strip paint from models if you see a bad paint job on models you want. That being said, the reason people most often sell their models is 'cause they aren't any good on the table. While that isn't the case all the time, it is the case...A lot. If you see a good deal, just make sure that they're models you actually want.

Wait...So you weren't kidding, there actually is 'Bad Stuff' in the game?
Unfortunately...Yes. The good news is, what's bad or good, depends on your meta. It's always useful to check out what other players are playing, and build to your meta.

Build to my meta?
What works for someone on the other side of the world, or Hell, just 200kms north of you, might not work for you, because their local meta, is different to yours. The only person who truly knows what you need to buy for your army, is you, and you only learn that, by talking and engaging with your other local players. Of course, you can build to the meta, and run some or all of the best units in the game. But, if your meta is even slightly reasonable, there's a good chance that you don't need - or probably even want - to run the best units in the game because your opponents don't play their armies that way.
...But, of course, they might, too.

So what am I here for?
Other perspectives and opinions. A lot of people play the game a certain way that they enjoy - it's a hobby, after all. That means that even if you talk to people in your meta, the advice you get given will only be relevant to their skill ceiling and knowledge base. If no-one in your meta plays Necrons, it's probably fair to say that not many people in your meta have experience playing with or against Necrons, and thus, their advice will be limited. There's a chance that you could ask everyone in your meta for advice, and get no helpful directions.

It's also pretty fair that if you ask your opponents how to beat them, they're not going to tell you - why would they? It's also pretty fair that if you're asking your local store manager how to build an army, that your manager will make recommendations that end up with you spending the most money possible. It's a ****ty thing to do, but it is realistic.

Mostly, the internet is for looking for competitive advice. If you are looking to win games, the internet will tell you how. Mostly, the internet will talk about the meta. That is, objectively, there are units in the game that are more suited to playing to the win conditions of the game, than other units. Internet discussion usually revolves around either taking those units, or taking units that counter those units, sometimes with a third 'meta-buster' build that is reasonably good against the unit and counter-unit.

Now, if your meta, doesn't have people running those units, then talking about the meta, only goes so far. However, even taking 'sub-optimal' units, can still win games. A unit that's rated 8/10 is still pretty good, even if it's not 'the best' and will still cause problems given the chance.

If you're having fun, playing what you want to play...Then talk about that.

So can I take sub-optimal units that I like the look of, and still win games?
That's the elephant in the room...And the answer, at best, is only 'Maybe.'

If having fun and doing hobby is what you care about, no-one can tell you how to have fun. No-one can tell you not to have fun - especially if you don't know them 'cause they're some dude on the internet and who cares what they think anyway? If you're having fun doing whatever it is you're doing, then you keep doing it. If, by some miracle, you're winning games while also taking like, units rated 5/10, 4/10 or worse, then who cares? You're playing with models you want, and you're winning games. Keep doing exactly what you're doing.

If the units or models you like are Not Good, and potentially contributing to you losing every game - and that matters to you. Well, that sucks. The units you like, are bad, they don't perform, and you have to buy new models. What you have doesn't work, you should probably replace it. Or, at the very least start cutting up the models you do have and start giving them new wargear. Everyone understands that this feeling sucks, and it sucks even harder that you've potentially wasted a lot of money. That's why making sure you know what you want to buy, before you buy it, is so important. That being said, GW can just nerf what you like into the ground and then what do you do?

At the end of the day, the important point you should know is that 'I want to have fun,' and 'I want to have fun...And win games,' are quite often different conversations.

So, are some Factions are better overall than others?
As previously mentioned, some units are more or less suited to winning games than other units. The more of these units a Faction has, the better or worse they are at winning games. So, unfortunately, the answer is 'Yes.' While it's certainly possible to win games with any Faction in the game, your ability to win games is dependent on what your opponents are running (i.e; Go back to your meta, see what people are running and how they play). If your meta is full of people who are playing cutting edge, top of the meta lists, there's a pretty good chance that you wont be able to just put down any unit you like and still have a good game...And that sucks.

But, for better or worse, Games Workshop has both officially and unofficially-by-game design stated that allied Factions are an intended part of the game, and that they're not going anywhere:
1. This means that they don't have to write 'complete' Factions that can do everything, all the time, because you - a player/consumer - can plug the holes in your preferred Faction's tactics by adding another Faction that is good at it. This makes game design very forgiving on GW's end, especially for Imperium and Chaos factions.
2. As a business, they sell you a more diverse range of models, so that certain kits don't just stay on the shelf forever and lose money by existing.

If you don't want to include a second or even third Faction in your army (not least in part 'cause it requires spending more money), that's a choice you are fully allowed to make. But, if there's a choice in another Faction that does do what you need a unit to be able to do, and you are choosing not to take it, well...What can be said?

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20355942&postcount=1425). :smallwink:

Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

WarhammerTV (YouTube) has several beginner guides on how to paint almost any model that GW sells. Also, as mentioned, Conquest Magazine is excellent if you want to learn how to paint Ultramarines and/or Death Guard and/or a bunch of GW's terrain features. Other than that, other YouTube channels also do painting tutorials, there are a whole bunch of blogs that also occasionally talk about how they painted their models. If you want to learn how to paint something specific, there's almost definitely a guide for it, somewhere.

If you want to get better at painting, full stop:
a) Make sure you have different sized paint brushes for different tasks - not every brush is useful, all the time.
b) Develop your fine motor skills. It takes practice. You wont be good at it for a while. Don't worry about bad paint jobs. When you get better, just strip them.

GW also has a Contrast Paint range, which is very helpful for getting people who don't want to paint, to paint. If painting for you is too hard, or too time-consuming, then make sure to look those up. Though, there are a number of stories where at the higher end of the painting scale, when you start getting good, Contrast Paints don't actually save you time, and are harder to use than normal paints (e.g; Once you learn drybrushing, it is both quicker and easier than Contrast).

Here are a number of Guides put together by the GitP 40K Community...

Helpful Army Building Guides
Adeptus Custodes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23089844&postcount=368) Out of date
Adeptus Mechanicus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23212682&postcount=799) Out of date
Astra Militarum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23229442&postcount=860) by LeSwordfish
Chaos Space Marines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22323358&postcount=680) by LeSwordfish
Craftworlds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23102387&postcount=394) by Forum Explorer
Dark Angels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22682254&postcount=1287) Out of date
Death Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22425277&postcount=1268) by LeSwordfish
Deathwatch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23067706&postcount=257) Out of date
Drukhari (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22979092&postcount=1056) by Gauntlet
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22290159&postcount=518)
Necrons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22958139&postcount=936) by Requizen
Space Marines Part I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23046630&postcount=154) - Part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23046633&postcount=155) Very Out of Date and Bad.
Thousand Sons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23838843&postcount=1174) by Wraith

Index: Inquisition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24261426&postcount=1199) (White Dwarf, Nov '19)
Index: Officio Assassinorum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23783027&postcount=880) (White Dwarf, Mar '19)
Index: Sisters of Silence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24262771&postcount=1226) (White Dwarf, Oct '19)

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
Solar Auxilia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234) by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421) by Vaz
Questoris Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235) by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17232158&postcount=1308)
Legion Special Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17243267&postcount=1322)
The Primarchs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17250802&postcount=1330)

Previous conversations to search through...

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333)
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779)
* VIII: You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot)
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot)
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-(Dice))
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388399-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXII-I-C-Tan-Has-Cheese#post18535364)
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411374-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIII-I-Do-Not-Like-Green-Tides-and-Hann)
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444969-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIV-And-They-Shall-Know-No-Fluff&p=19863366&viewfull=1#post19863366)
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476885-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXV-Friends-Are-Better-Than-Wraithknights)
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503224-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVII-Tyranids-Finally-Found-A-Friend)
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509492-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVIII-Drasius-Can-t-Have-Nice-Things)
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517336-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIX-Ro-Ro-Ro-Your-Boute)
* XXX: Imperium After Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?525424-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXX-Imperium-After-Dark)
* XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?530992-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXI-Haters-Gonna-Burn)
* XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538281-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXXII-I-Got-99-Guardsmen-and-Morale-Killed-One)
* XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546769-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIII-Only-in-Nerf-Does-Duty-End)
* XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557261-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXIV-Situation-Normal-All-FAQ-d-Up)
* XXXV: 4 Pages of Rules, 46 Pages of Pointless Bickering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568998-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXV-4-Pages-of-Rules-46-Pages-of-Pointless-Bickering)
* XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578886-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXVI-If-it-Ain-t-Broke-Nerf-It)
* XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588288-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXVII-Highlighting-the-Contrasts)
* XXXVIII: toy soldiers r srs bsns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?596582-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-Thread-XXXVIII-toy-soldiers-r-srs-bsns)

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22597012&postcount=924) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Cheesegear]

Previously in the Eternal Darkness:

Still reeling from SoCal 2019 - and most other ITC tournaments - Space Marines are asserting their incomplete dominance, with T'au and Craftworlds. Despite the obvious biases and inherent flaws to the ITC format - which directly enable Castles/Gunlines and significantly favour 'moderate'-sized armies due to turn timers - people are still unable to grasp why or how Space Marines (and Craftworlds and T'au) are so dominant...In the ITC, a format which has removed all Space Marines' counters. :smallsigh:
Slow-playing: Are you bad, or a cheater? ...There's no third option. Can you play an army with 120+ models in it and still get through your games in less than 2.5 hours? (Spoiler alert; Yes)
2000 Points; Is it a balanced game, or a game that takes too long?
Well of course it takes so long! Tournaments remove a players' ability to concede!
Also, almost all of Codex: Adepta Sororitas is now known. Reviews range from "This Codex is balanced and there should be more like it." to "This Codex runs halfway between Space Marines and Astra Militarum, and is worse than both." and "This Codex isn't even close to being as good as the good Factions', so it sucks."
...We now return you to the Darkness.

[Drasius]

https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/76653010_10100944578735539_5953047533814022144_n.j pg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ohc=m93J1Frj2OQAQlOMYqzQYTBi6paA_3KPzMdVPqJtfw QLxQZTtqF8ggoWg&_nc_ht=scontent.fbne6-1.fna&oh=20fd27681a7ceff431f1ab9639b90593&oe=5E4F15B6

Apparently the Harlie entry is a typo and should be 13 --> 11

[Blackhawk748]

Cheaper Tech Priests. Yay?

[Renegade Paladin]

Yep. They release Sisters and immediately buff their hard counter. :smallamused:

[Blackhawk748]

Yep. They release Sisters and immediately buff their hard counter. :smallamused:

Nurgle? Anything T5? Things with more range than 24"?

[Renegade Paladin]

Nurgle? Anything T5? Things with more range than 24"?
Things with deep strike and S3 AP-2 rapid fire shooting. :smallwink:

[Blackhawk748]

Things with deep strike and S3 AP-2 rapid fire shooting. :smallwink:

AP -1. Its fairly easy to get 4++ so any extra AP is wasted. Also, the Deep Strike isn't necessary, Sisters aren't terribly mobile, or have the greatest range. The new Codex gave several boost, but that particular problem is still very much present.

[LansXero]

They also save on a 2+ most of the time. Sure, Sisters can have a field day with their psychic phase, but their melee is a joke so they can be rolled over that way (ah no, sorry Bloody Rose will make Kaldor Draigo not want to charge you, my bad, how could I forget).

[Forum Explorer]

https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/76653010_10100944578735539_5953047533814022144_n.j pg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ohc=m93J1Frj2OQAQlOMYqzQYTBi6paA_3KPzMdVPqJtfw QLxQZTtqF8ggoWg&_nc_ht=scontent.fbne6-1.fna&oh=20fd27681a7ceff431f1ab9639b90593&oe=5E4F15B6

Apparently the Harlie entry is a typo and should be 13 --> 11

Whoo Reavers, Banshees, and Harlequins going down in points. :smallsmile:

Though I wish Scorpions would get some love. They really are useless right now, and that makes me sad.


They also save on a 2+ most of the time. Sure, Sisters can have a field day with their psychic phase, but their melee is a joke so they can be rolled over that way (ah no, sorry Bloody Rose will make Kaldor Draigo not want to charge you, my bad, how could I forget).

I'm curious how their melee will be. I mean, Pertinent Engines are under 50 points and have 15 attacks at S6 that reroll to hit, IIRC. They do die really easy, but again, under 50 points. It'd be pretty easy to slot three of them in to pretty much any army to serve as counter melee if nothing else.

Sisters also got an advance and charge strat, but I'm not sure who qualifies for it.

[Turalisj]

Can you take Pengines in groups? If not, they're junk. If you're limited to 3 and they die fast, what's the point?

Glad the manipulus is going down in points, should have never been 90pts.

[Yaktan]

Penitent engines and the new alt version both come in groups of 1-3. The new ones trade zelot for 3+ ws/bs, but their FNP drops from 5+ to 6+, from what I have heard. The new ones get assault heavy bolters or pistol heavy flamers.

The advance and charge strat is for Sisters; it excludes the pen engines and arco flagelents. However, the new alt-engines are giant repentia, so they can use it.

[Drasius]

Can you take Pengines in groups? If not, they're junk. If you're limited to 3 and they die fast, what's the point?

Filling elite slots for cheap is good enough combined with being a distraction carnifii. 9 of them are going to be terrifying.

[Blackhawk748]

Can you take Pengines in groups? If not, they're junk. If you're limited to 3 and they die fast, what's the point?

Glad the manipulus is going down in points, should have never been 90pts.

Yes, and Im glad that they're still solid. In Index was nice to them. Im not sure about the new version, but they sound more shooty instead of smashy.

[LansXero]

Calling P-Engines 'Distraction Carnifii' is an overstatement. At best they're fighty Sentinels without the advance deployment. At T5 it can be taken down by Heavy Bolter fire without much issue (its not like you need them to wound sisters hah), at 5 wounds its reasonably tanky for the points, but it wont last much either way; no invulnerable means that with AP being everywhere it'll end up relying on 5s - 6s and thus be dissassembled before its ever much of a concern.

Everyone is operating in a vacuum trying to justify a mediocre army as a good thing, and going 'well of course its not the best! the best is busted!' as if that makes the units in the faction suddenly work better. P-Engines dont work as melee counterpunch because they're trivial to shoot off the table, and they're trivial to hammer down as well due to no invulnerable and T: why am I a vehicle?. They dont fly and, while moving 9" while advancing and charging might seem cool in theory, having it reach more than screens is very unlikely, as it cant bypass terrain or clear chaff well enough. Sisters having a mostly 24" range (but muh strat! as if you'll seriously shoot multi-meltas as covering grots) means that after they shoot 15" away from the front line, they'll probably have little to charge at, and what they'll want to charge will be behind a wall of disposable wounds. The flail option is cool to clear out infantry, but 'clearing out infantry' is what every other unit in the army does pretty well already. Heck, it might be the only thing the faction does well, except maybe shutting down the psychic phase.

[Requizen]

Sorry, I'm a bit behind, is the Sister's Codex out in full now, or are we still dealing with piecemeal? If it's out, what's the overall verdict?

Also, C'tan point drop is neat, but they still have plenty of issues.

[Wraith]

It's out, but ONLY IF you bought the limited edition boxed set within the 93 seconds that it was available online. The rest of us mere peasants will have to wait until January.

The verdict is that it's.... okay. Strictly B+ with a few interesting and potentially useful abilities, stacked on top of what is basically T3 Space Marines, but without all the stratagems, variety, heavy weapons and other unique stuff that makes Space Marines A+.

Casual Players will play casual games and probably really enjoy them, with some decent Troops and some interesting tricks to throw around. Competitive Players will take one look, sneer derisively, and continue to roll faces with Iron Hands who just do everything better than everyone else.

[Cheesegear]

If it's out, what's the overall verdict?

The entire thing has been reviewed and/or leaked.
However, nobody actually has the Codex on hand, because they sold out in three minutes (in AU). Because GW can do anything they want, price it however they want, and whales will still buy it, even while complaining how expensive it was and how shady the business practice was.

Casually?
B. Maybe a B+. You will have fun with your friends. More Codecies should be like it. Make a gimmick that's easy to explain, easy to execute, and go. Give 'em Power Armour so they don't die immediately to a stiff breeze. Give 'em Boltguns 'cause then at least you wont be S3. 'Marines with T3'. But also shore up that T3 with a 4+ Invulnerable save on anything you want, and you're looking at a solid little army that will let you run roughshod over newbies and bads who can't get their head around Miracle Dice.

Competitively?
- It's not Space Marines, it's not Guard, it's a hybrid that's not as good as either. A huge kick in the junk to Sororitas is that Scions' points drop has been leaked and holy **** if Scions didn't just become one of the best Troops in the Imperium Faction.
- It's not Space Marines, so it sucks.
- Two years in development? If that's even remotely true, why isn't it...Better? You sharted out six Space Marine Supplements in three months. And most of them are competitive. With two (Iron Hands and White Scars) effectively breaking the game.
- If you've been on the hype train for two years, you might even hate the book. But if you really like Ministorum, aren't you just happy for a new book, and new models? You will get fed trash, and you will like it...
- Most of the Codex sucks (see; Inferior Space Marines, and Inferior Guardsmen)
- Looks like a mono-build, centered around Miracle Dice. Which is an unreliable mechanic. Thus, Ministorum probably wont be consistent. An unreliable army is a bad army.
- Mono-Faction abilities aren't good.
- Miracle Dice act like a Mono-Faction ability (i.e; The more Sororitas units you have, the better it is), but aren't. So using them as Allies in another army isn't even good, because you wont have enough Sororitas units to make Miracle Dice a viable mechanic.
- Faithful 17 is no longer a thing - at least, it's not a thing that's valuable, since how Sororitas Deny the Witch was changed, and what makes it good, is a mono-Faciton ability.
- In case you missed it; Running them as Primary Faction isn't good, running them as an Allied Faction isn't good. Wait...Uhh...

So, yeah.
It's hard to justify running 9 Point Sororitas models when 7 Point Scions exist.

[LansXero]

The entire thing has been reviewed and/or leaked.
However, nobody actually has the Codex on hand, because they sold out in three minutes (in AU). Because GW can do anything they want, price it however they want, and whales will still buy it, even while complaining how expensive it was and how shady the business practice was.

I wonder if its on VK already. But I wouldnt put it past this weekend to be up to download and print. GW is really showing its age, like making a Codex limited will matter.


Casually?
B. Maybe a B+. You will have fun with your friends. More Codecies should be like it. Make a gimmick that's easy to explain, easy to execute, and go. Give 'em Power Armour so they don't die immediately to a stiff breeze. Give 'em Boltguns 'cause then at least you wont be S3. 'Marines with T3'. But also shore up that T3 with a 4+ Invulnerable save on anything you want, and you're looking at a solid little army that will let you run roughshod over newbies and bads who can't get their head around Miracle Dice.

Since when is a 12" bubble (with relic and WT investment) tied to a non-flying model "on anything you want"? These arent Custodes, the inv. isnt free nor does it come stock with the models. While castles are the name of the game, T3 castles with 3 models that can ignore LoS and not many things that can shoot over 24" are below mediocre. Remember when people were clamoring that Beta! Sisters were fine because of Storm Bolters, that same 4++ and how they shat on the psychic phase? And how I said they were unplayable trash that nobody would touch? Months later, guess what, nobody touched them, not even for their supposed 'meta busting' niche of stopping 1k sons and Daemons.


Competitively?
- It's not Space Marines, it's not Guard, it's a hybrid that's not as good as either. A huge kick in the junk to Sororitas is that Scions' points drop has been leaked and holy **** if Scions didn't just become one of the best Troops in the Imperium Faction.
- It's not Space Marines, so it sucks.
- Two years in development? If that's even remotely true, why isn't it...Better? You sharted out six Space Marine Supplements in three months. And most of them are competitive. With two (Iron Hands and White Scars) effectively breaking the game.
- If you've been on the hype train for two years, you might even hate the book. But if you really like Ministorum, aren't you just happy for a new book, and new models? You will get fed trash, and you will like it...
- Most of the Codex sucks (see; Inferior Space Marines, and Inferior Guardsmen)
- Looks like a mono-build, centered around Miracle Dice. Which is an unreliable mechanic. Thus, Ministorum probably wont be consistent. An unreliable army is a bad army.
- Mono-Faction abilities aren't good.
- Miracle Dice act like a Mono-Faction ability (i.e; The more Sororitas units you have, the better it is), but aren't. So using them as Allies in another army isn't even good, because you wont have enough Sororitas units to make Miracle Dice a viable mechanic.
- Faithful 17 is no longer a thing - at least, it's not a thing that's valuable, since how Sororitas Deny the Witch was changed, and what makes it good, is a mono-Faciton ability.
- In case you missed it; Running them as Primary Faction isn't good, running them as an Allied Faction isn't good. Wait...Uhh...

Not as good as either and way more expensive in dollarydoos. Scions, while also monetarily expensive, are easier to convert from Guardsmen (and if you feel fancy, the new Necromunda warband, although that may end up even more expensive, still rad looking).
It doesnt suck just because its not current Space Marines levels of broken. It sucks because it doesnt do anything well, except killing light infantry which is about as relevant as 'looking pretty when pro-painted' in game terms.
The new units feel pretty redundant. I mean, giving P-engines chaff-clearing flails in the same variant that has a lower FNP? How's that work? Are they supposed to crash into Boyz / 'gaunts and clear them out? If so, why is their ability to survive the following barrage lower instead of higher?. And well, then there are power swords on S3 models for the new Seraphim variant, and it doesnt take 2 years to realize thats stupid. Oh, they re-roll wounds? oh then thats fine. And lets not forget 'Bloody Rose makes melee factions not want to charge you', right? What a joke. Two years to copy fate dice.

The mono build is focused around a 4++ castle, without which the entire army falls like a castle made of cards. Does that sound like a B+ faction for you? Is a GK Supreme Command enough to make them a B+ faction then?


So, yeah.
It's hard to justify running 9 Point Sororitas models when 7 Point Scions exist.

If you're a new player coming into the game, you cant buy the army anyways, but even when you become able you'd ask yourself "what are these girls good at, other than being girls" and fall short of a proper answer that isnt just Guard- or Space Marines- or Admech-. Isnt that the -4 Str meme? Where the 'girl' version is worse at everything than the male version? Wasnt this the exact opposite of what they were trying to achieve?

If you're an older player, even a fluffbunny like you Cheese, its obvious the faction is just a flash-in-the-pan 'cool on paper' gimmick. How many Azrael castles do you see floating around to consider a 4++ bubble worth anything? Even Custodes, the poster boys of unfair invulnerables and high toughness, are nothing without their pushed FW toys and the mobility afforded by Shield Captains on bikes. Would you run foot Custodes? If not, why are you giving a B+ to models with the same inv, the same penchant for storm bolters everywhere, but half the toughness? Hell, Custodes dont even need to bunch up, and still wouldnt work.

[Cheesegear]

Since when is a 12" bubble (with relic and WT investment) tied to a non-flying model "on anything you want"?

Well, obviously, you can put anything you want, inside the bubble. :smalltongue:


The mono build is focused around a 4++ castle, without which the entire army falls like a castle made of cards. Does that sound like a B+ faction for you?

In the casual meta? Yes.


Where the 'girl' version is worse at everything than the male version? Wasnt this the exact opposite of what they were trying to achieve?

You get it. :smallwink:


If you're an older player, even a fluffbunny like you Cheese, its obvious the faction is just a flash-in-the-pan 'cool on paper' gimmick.

It sure is. Hence my 'Casuals will like it, but here's a laundry list of why the Codex is actually terrible.'


How many Azrael castles do you see floating around to consider a 4++ bubble worth anything?

Anyone who plays Dark Angels, runs that. Every time. Combined with -1 to hit. Same as Custodes.


Would you run foot Custodes?

Not as a mono-Faction. But the reason Custodes Detachments works is 'cause of Vexillas. Everyone loves -1 to hit.


Hell, Custodes dont even need to bunch up...

Yes they do. You gotta cluster around the Vexilla(e) for at least a turn.
What makes Custodes viable, is that it's a mobile castle, 'cause Custodes don't have Heavy weapons, so it's bizarre. But then Iron Hands do everything that Custodes do/did, except better.

[Blackhawk748]

Orks were doing the KFF bubble and theirs was even smaller. The reason this works at all is because the comparisons you're making aren't cheap. Azrael Is a pricey dude while the Cannoness is like... 60points? And jf you're shooting her, the other pair of them are somewhere else.

Is a trio of 20 bricks of Sisters worth it? I don't know, but it's not terrible

[LansXero]

Orks were doing the KFF bubble and theirs was even smaller. The reason this works at all is because the comparisons you're making aren't cheap. Azrael Is a pricey dude while the Cannoness is like... 60points? And jf you're shooting her, the other pair of them are somewhere else.

Is a trio of 20 bricks of Sisters worth it? I don't know, but it's not terrible

Orks were doing that as a delivery system for 'everything is tied up with Boyz now' until the Codex came out and Mek Gunz backed by grotz became the new standard. Because their shooting was as toothless as Sisters is, except they actually had melee power, which Sisters do not.

Also, Azrael brings actual counter-assault power, bonus CPs, re-roll all misses, not just 1s and a relic Plasma gun. The Aura Cannonness doesnt do as much; but more importantly there is a lot more firepower in that castle than on a Sister's equivalent. Not that the faction is super competitive, and yet its better than Sisters imho.


Well, obviously, you can put anything you want, inside the bubble.

Can you? You want Exorcists in there so they dont die T1, and their footprint isnt small. Between terrain, range and LoS, how much of your castle is actually relevant? Exposing your Aura model is risky, so the actual effective area isnt all that great. If you are going against mobile troops like DE? Kiss table control goodbye. And a single Vindicare destroys your mono-build.


Yes they do. You gotta cluster around the Vexilla(e) for at least a turn.
What makes Custodes viable, is that it's a mobile castle, 'cause Custodes don't have Heavy weapons, so it's bizarre. But then Iron Hands do everything that Custodes do/did, except better.

You deploy them around, but if you get a chance to charge you dont suddenly lose your inv. like Sisters do. And Cannonesses dont float around running 16" to tie up gunlines (would it have killed them to make a Cannoness on jump pack?) so the only answer Sisters has to incoming firepower is taking it in the chin and pushing through. With their T3 bodies.

[Artanis]

The better option, is to simply straight up build 2 or 3 different lists. However, transport becomes a nightmare.
I know that WarmaHordes does this, and one look at the lists that get thrown around in these threads lets even a non-player like me realize you're probably right about transport.

[Forum Explorer]

Calling P-Engines 'Distraction Carnifii' is an overstatement. At best they're fighty Sentinels without the advance deployment. At T5 it can be taken down by Heavy Bolter fire without much issue (its not like you need them to wound sisters hah), at 5 wounds its reasonably tanky for the points, but it wont last much either way; no invulnerable means that with AP being everywhere it'll end up relying on 5s - 6s and thus be dissassembled before its ever much of a concern.

Everyone is operating in a vacuum trying to justify a mediocre army as a good thing, and going 'well of course its not the best! the best is busted!' as if that makes the units in the faction suddenly work better. P-Engines dont work as melee counterpunch because they're trivial to shoot off the table, and they're trivial to hammer down as well due to no invulnerable and T: why am I a vehicle?. They dont fly and, while moving 9" while advancing and charging might seem cool in theory, having it reach more than screens is very unlikely, as it cant bypass terrain or clear chaff well enough. Sisters having a mostly 24" range (but muh strat! as if you'll seriously shoot multi-meltas as covering grots) means that after they shoot 15" away from the front line, they'll probably have little to charge at, and what they'll want to charge will be behind a wall of disposable wounds. The flail option is cool to clear out infantry, but 'clearing out infantry' is what every other unit in the army does pretty well already. Heck, it might be the only thing the faction does well, except maybe shutting down the psychic phase.

It's got it's 5+ to Ignore Damage and that alone makes it leagues more durable then a Sentinel. And honestly calling it a fighty Sentinel is pretty insulting, Sentinel's don't do jack all. If the P-Engines get into melee, they've got a decent chance of actually killing whatever they've hit from sheer weight of attacks, unless that thing is a titanic unit of some sort. As for dying to Heavy Bolter shots, well it'll take approximately 24 Heavy Bolter shots to do so. To kill one. Assault Cannons would do better, of course, but then they aren't shooting at the T3 Sisters. But for the record, it'd take about 18 Assault Cannon shots.

I don't consider that a trivial amount of fire power. If you add in Lascannons and the like, it becomes easy, but then your anti-tank stuff isn't shooting at the Exorcists. Or for that matter, at any of the infantry sister units, like say, your Retributors with multi-meltas.

While we're talking about Sister durability, someone (Goonhammer I think) calculated out that it would take 109 Heavy Bolter shots to kill the Triumph of Saint Katherine. Or Bolt Rifle shots, which are the same thing against her anyways.

And the thing is, Sisters are so cheap, I can almost certainly take a double battalion of Sisters, 6 P-Engines, 3 Exorcists, the Triumph, Celestine, and still have enough points to make the whole thing a Brigade. And they are really durable for their points. Having a 4++ on nearly everything is insane. AP basically doesn't matter to them, and if they really want, they can keep their 3+ save by going Valorous Heart and taking an Imagfier. I'm really looking forward to getting their Codex (or a copy of it at least) and playing around with what lists I can build.

[LansXero]

It's got it's 5+ to Ignore Damage and that alone makes it leagues more durable then a Sentinel. And honestly calling it a fighty Sentinel is pretty insulting, Sentinel's don't do jack all. If the P-Engines get into melee, they've got a decent chance of actually killing whatever they've hit from sheer weight of attacks

So.. like 5 each? Ok, they're not fighty sentinels, they're expensive Wraithblades. Tell me how meta Wraithblades are, and they even have way better support than Sisters can give the P-engines. Unless you mean the flail version which cant wound vehicles and only has a 6+++


As for dying to Heavy Bolter shots, well it'll take approximately 24 Heavy Bolter shots to do so. To kill one. Assault Cannons would do better, of course, but then they aren't shooting at the T3 Sisters. But for the record, it'd take about 18 Assault Cannon shots.

I don't consider that a trivial amount of fire power. If you add in Lascannons and the like, it becomes easy, but then your anti-tank stuff isn't shooting at the Exorcists. Or for that matter, at any of the infantry sister units, like say, your Retributors with multi-meltas.


Why waste multi-damage high S High AP shots on T3 models with a 4++? They'll take the shots from the mandatory sponson / turret guns or from the CP Intercessors and die to probability of rolling 1s. Exorcists are a fine target, but would probably be out of LoS. And also, no-fly on melee models is still junk.


While we're talking about Sister durability, someone (Goonhammer I think) calculated out that it would take 109 Heavy Bolter shots to kill the Triumph of Saint Katherine. Or Bolt Rifle shots, which are the same thing against her anyways.


It degrades, so its not like not doing in a single round doesnt take a toll. But then, 109 shots are what, Rapid fire from 50 odd models, 26 if its storm bolters? Like... sure, Ill trade my troop shooting for your center piece model any day, whats the issue there?


And the thing is, Sisters are so cheap, I can almost certainly take a double battalion of Sisters, 6 P-Engines, 3 Exorcists, the Triumph, Celestine, and still have enough points to make the whole thing a Brigade.

That all fit in your 4++ while in range and LoS of the enemy, does it now?


And they are really durable for their points. Having a 4++ on nearly everything is insane. AP basically doesn't matter to them, and if they really want, they can keep their 3+ save by going Valorous Heart and taking an Imagfier. I'm really looking forward to getting their Codex (or a copy of it at least) and playing around with what lists I can build.

No it isnt nearly everything and no it isnt insane. Harlequins actually do have 4++ all the time, plus -1 to be wound around an HQ model, plus -to be hit, and you dont hear about them being 'insanely durable'. Hell, beta-codex sisters also did, still unplayed thus far. I get that you're excited, thats fine, I've played plenty of junk lists for kicks. But there is that and there is considering the codex good design.

At least you aren't thinking expensive banshees without ignores-overwatch are somehow viable in melee.

[Yaktan]

They get 3 attacks per attack with the flails, so it is actually 15 attacks each. :smallwink:

[LansXero]

I really wish there was a viable online version of 40k, just so we could put theories to the test without all the expenses of traveling. Alas, its not to be, so time will tell :)

[Forum Explorer]

So.. like 5 each? Ok, they're not fighty sentinels, they're expensive Wraithblades. Tell me how meta Wraithblades are, and they even have way better support than Sisters can give the P-engines. Unless you mean the flail version which cant wound vehicles and only has a 6+++



Why waste multi-damage high S High AP shots on T3 models with a 4++? They'll take the shots from the mandatory sponson / turret guns or from the CP Intercessors and die to probability of rolling 1s. Exorcists are a fine target, but would probably be out of LoS. And also, no-fly on melee models is still junk.



It degrades, so its not like not doing in a single round doesnt take a toll. But then, 109 shots are what, Rapid fire from 50 odd models, 26 if its storm bolters? Like... sure, Ill trade my troop shooting for your center piece model any day, whats the issue there?

.

That all fit in your 4++ while in range and LoS of the enemy, does it now?



No it isnt nearly everything and no it isnt insane. Harlequins actually do have 4++ all the time, plus -1 to be wound around an HQ model, plus -to be hit, and you dont hear about them being 'insanely durable'. Hell, beta-codex sisters also did, still unplayed thus far. I get that you're excited, thats fine, I've played plenty of junk lists for kicks. But there is that and there is considering the codex good design.

At least you aren't thinking expensive banshees without ignores-overwatch are somehow viable in melee.

No, 15 Attacks each at S6 AP-2. The Flail Version doesn't effect their FnP, that's switching to the Heavy Bolter version that does that. The Heavy Bolter Version also gets the Advance and Charge strat, has an explode that only hurts enemy units in melee, and has a 3+ to hit. I'm not sure if the Mortitor has Shield of Faith or not, but the P-Engine is a definite no. 15 Attacks at S6 can hurt vehicles, but it's not ideal, no. That's what the Exorcists and Retributors are for.

Sorry, my paragraph got a little cluttered there. I meant, any Heavy Bolters/Assault Cannons shooting at P-Engines aren't shooting at your Retributors and any Lascannons/Ect shooting at P-Engines aren't shooting at your Exorcists. Also Exorcists don't ignore LoS or moving and shooting penalties. Retributors can do that though, and hide behind walls. Turn 1 at least.


It's a 185 point model. It's not a centerpiece unit, it's just yet another thing. Go ahead, shoot your entire army at it, I don't care if it dies, I've got more stuff. Also Storm Bolters would be a much higher number, that 109 is assuming it's on the 4++. Not it's 3+, or more realistically speaking, a 2+, because it's going to be ridiculously easy to get a cover save for it, considering just any piece of its base needs to touch terrain. It might be hard to hide it, depending on the model which I assume will be gigantic, but the bigger it is, the easier it is to give it cover.

I'm really not sure how actually competitive it is. Generating 2 Miracle Dice a round and giving a +1 to them when they are used is pretty useful, as is the extra Act of Faith. The melee stuff? Well, maybe you can make an actual melee Sisters army, and then it'll be really useful. Or maybe only those 3 relics are any good, but are they worth the point cost would be the question. It's more of an afternote though, that even this kinda silly parade is actually a lot harder to kill then people thought at first glance.

That depends on what I'm fighting, now doesn't it? I'd say mission, but we are talking hypothetical competitive games, and that means ITC, where castelling is super viable. :smallyuk: But since you only need a single model from each unit with 6 inches of the buff givers, it's not too hard to do with your infantry units.

The difference, and the reason that doesn't work for Harlequins, is that Harlequins are A) Pretty Expensive, so losing even a single model hurts, B) Only have a 4++, so cover doesn't help and they don't get a 3+ against small arms fire, C) Are basically Melee only, with all the many problems that creates.

And they are really expensive. The base Harlequin (A S3 model with no AP) is useless. And is 13 points to be useless. Making them useful in melee and they are now 20 points a model. Making them useful for shooting, and they are now 22 points a model. Oh but to be useful for shooting, they also need a transport, so that's another 90 points. You can make them useful for both at a whopping 29 points per model. And no matter what, they will only be effective at short range so you'll need to get close to your opponent before they can do anything.

Then you get into the complications with the characters. If you are running infantry Harlequins? Then you'll have to double move a unit for it to be in threat range. Oh, look it's now out of the character buffs. If it's a Jetbike unit, well it can't just sit back and shoot, so it'll likely move up if you want it hurting something important. (Which is 40-45 points a model with no melee options for the record. You know, almost the entire cost of a P-Engine). And now it's out of range of buffs as well. Or everything is in a transport, and you can't even use the buff until the transport dies.

In comparison the base Sister is 9 points. And is more durable and more useful, because a bolter is not useless. Even if they are just plinking away at power armor, you'll still get value out of it from weight of fire if nothing else. And because they are useful at range, they can actually hold an objective in cover, and still do something. And because they have a 3+, they actually have some durability against small arms fire. They move at the same speed as their buffs, so they can have a 4++, reroll 1's, ect, and still be just as effective as they always are.

The big difference between their Beta Version and them now, is that their Acts of Faith are actually useful. Before, they may have been pretty durable, but it was a pain to actually do damage. Being able to guarantee a hit/wound when you need it is critical, as well as stuff as; everything getting cheaper, Exorcists becoming reliable, Retributors being able to move and shoot (and thus Multi-Meltas becoming useful), being able to shoot Inferno Pistols out of deep strike. Now, admittedly, tanks are still their big weakness. They only have so much anti-tank to get. But on the other hand, pure Sisters are almost a direct counter to Psyker heavy hordes, with added nastiness for demons.

It does mean their absolute bane is Triple Repulsors on a Skyshield backed up by Thunderfire cannons, which is all kinds of unfortunate in the current competitive meta. But nothing else seems to really be able to handle that either, so I don't feel bad about it.

[Cheesegear]

so the only answer Sisters has to incoming firepower is taking it in the chin and pushing through. With their T3 bodies.

I think another issue you don't seem to be aware of, is that as a filthy superior Craftworlds' player just trying their best with an underwhelming Codex, your Codex is based around the obvious trash that is S6. T3 is a joke. Plz buff Craftworlds to S7. Shuriken Cannons should be at least S8, though, and be AP-3 all the time. But also still cost the same points.
Me, being a lame Space Marine player, my Codex is based around S5. T3 doesn't seem that bad to me.

[Drasius]

Shuriken Cannons should be at least S8, though, and be AP-3 all the time. But also still cost the same points.


Not even asking for a points drop? Gee, you sure like playing on hard mode, dontcha?

[Cheesegear]

Not even asking for a points drop? Gee, you sure like playing on hard mode, dontcha?

It's Craftworlds. It's already the hardest Codex in the game to play.

[Blackhawk748]

So.. like 5 each? Ok, they're not fighty sentinels, they're expensive Wraithblades. Tell me how meta Wraithblades are, and they even have way better support than Sisters can give the P-engines. Unless you mean the flail version which cant wound vehicles and only has a 6+++

They have more wounds than Wriathblades, so them being higher points is fine. Hell, Pen Engines have been fine wince the Index, this is just keeping them relevant.


While we're talking about Sister durability, someone (Goonhammer I think) calculated out that it would take 109 Heavy Bolter shots to kill the Triumph of Saint Katherine. Or Bolt Rifle shots, which are the same thing against her anyways.


Wait, what? 18 T3 4++ wounds takes that many shots? So I'm hearing 20 sister blobs....

[JNAProductions]

-1 to be hit too.

[Forum Explorer]

Wait, what? 18 T3 4++ wounds takes that many shots? So I'm hearing 20 sister blobs....

More critically is the -1 to hit. That makes a massive difference.

[Blackhawk748]

More critically is the -1 to hit. That makes a massive difference.

Oh...wait...it does have that. Completely forgot. Also its not bad at 185 points. Was worried it'd be stupid pricey.


The 'Whole Army' rule for for <Ministorum> is Sacred Rites; Start of game, pick one, or roll for two:
1. A 6 to hit in the Fight phase scores two hits,
2. Every model in the army is affected by an Astartes Banner, but, 5+,
3. +1 to Advance and Charge,
4. +3 to Deny the Witch when using AoFs.
5. Storm of Fire on every single Ministorum unit.
6. Re-roll Morale tests.

Just gonna drop this in here so we can easily access it. Now, please refresh my memory, what does an Astartes Banner and Storm of Fire do?

[Renegade Paladin]

So the expansion they're bringing to 8th in Chapter Approved this year is Spearhead (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/28/chapter-approved-2019-forging-a-narrativegw-homepage-post-2/). This makes my Guard-playing heart happy. :smallbiggrin:

[Squark]

Oh...wait...it does have that. Completely forgot. Also its not bad at 185 points. Was worried it'd be stupid pricey.



Just gonna drop this in here so we can easily access it. Now, please refresh my memory, what does an Astartes Banner and Storm of Fire do?

Astartes banners let a model that's about to be killed shoot a ranged weapon or make 1 melee attack. Storm of fire gives -1 AP on an unmodified 6 to hit.

[Blackhawk748]

Astartes banners let a model that's about to be killed shoot a ranged weapon or make 1 melee attack. Storm of fire gives -1 AP on an unmodified 6 to hit.

Ok, so kinda eh, the other one isn't bad though. So there's two good Sacred Rights. Real shame we can't use them with Allies. *totally not annoyed by this decision*

[Squark]

Ok, so kinda eh, the other one isn't bad though. So there's two good Sacred Rights. Real shame we can't use them with Allies. *totally not annoyed by this decision*

I mean, they're supposed to be the Soritas equivalent of Combat Doctorines; a reward you get for going mono-faction. But I've already posted my opinion on mono-faction rules (They punish people for choosing armies that are already struggling, and reward people who go with the strongest armies), and the Sacred Rights aren't really as powerful as just staying in Devastator Doctorine is for marines... much less the extra benefits you can get from the supplements.

[Blackhawk748]

I mean, they're supposed to be the Soritas equivalent of Combat Doctorines; a reward you get for going mono-faction. But I've already posted my opinion on mono-faction rules (They punish people for choosing armies that are already struggling, and reward people who go with the strongest armies), and the Sacred Rights aren't really as powerful as just staying in Devastator Doctorine is for marines... much less the extra benefits you can get from the supplements.

I think we all agree that Devastator Doctrine is a bit... much, even when not on Iron Hands, so I don't have an issue with the Sacred Rights, per se, though a few definitely need a boost or to just be replaced (looking at you Morale Re-roll). And I honestly don't get why they're hung up on that, only Sisters get the bonus, so who cares who you bring along?

Would Sisters like a Knight to help with their Tank Killing? Yes.
Would Ad Mech like a brick of Sisters for Denying while holding a midfield objective? Sure.

Except that we can't do that cuz we lose one of our biggest bonuses (the +3 on Deny) and even the loss of AP -1 on a 6 kinda sucks cuz Sisters can throw enough Bolter shots for cheap that they'll come up enough that you'll notice the lack of it.

Its just dumb, they aren't that good that they need them taken away, but they are good enough that you notice when you don't have them.

[LansXero]

Rumour has it that there'd be a point drop for Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Hemlocks and Warlocks / Spiritseers.

Glad to see some well deserved improvements to a struggling faction. It'll make the unjustified point increase of the Crimson Hunter Exarch slightly less painful.

[Turalisj]

Rumour has it that there'd be a point drop for Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Hemlocks and Warlocks / Spiritseers.

Glad to see some well deserved improvements to a struggling faction. It'll make the unjustified point increase of the Crimson Hunter Exarch slightly less painful.

Man, is it hard to see from all the way up there?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Rumour has it that there'd be a point drop for Dark Reapers, Shining Spears, Hemlocks and Warlocks / Spiritseers.

Glad to see some well deserved improvements to a struggling faction. It'll make the unjustified point increase of the Crimson Hunter Exarch slightly less painful.

This has to be sarcasm right?

[Drasius]

I hadn't painted for a while, and I finally found my mojo again when I started painting my knights. I was pretty chronically known for starting stuff and getting distracted by other GW projects and rarely finishing anything, but this was different, this was fun, I'm going to actually finish an army before I get distracted and move on to something else for once.

Then I had to wait a fortnight for an order to come in, so to busy myself, I decided that since making a call on my knights colour scheme after multiple years, I'd do the same for my marines and did some tests and then painted up a dev squad to pass the time. Ya know, since I need a tournament army and all. Now I have minimal interest in going back to my knights.

"Hey Drasius, want to start Titanicus with us?" Yes. Yes I very much would love to play Battletech Titanicus with you. So now the marines are on the backburner after a week in the spotlight.

Why am I like this?

[Blackhawk748]

Man, is it hard to see from all the way up there?

I mean, we're a bunch of filthy ground walkers, so we wouldn't understand

Being serious here, I think we can say that LansXero is in a meta almost as weird as Cheese's. I mean maybe it's super hostile to Eldar or something. IDK.

[Drasius]

I mean, we're a bunch of filthy ground walkers, so we wouldn't understand

Being serious here, I think we can say that LansXero is in a meta almost as weird as Cheese's. I mean maybe it's super hostile to Eldar or something. IDK.

At a 19-2 win rate, there's probably a reason it's hostile...

[LansXero]

At a 19-2 win rate, there's probably a reason it's hostile...

Thats only for 'official' 2k games though. We havent played any of those in quite a while, since starting our narrative escalation campaign (Which Team Xenos isnt winning, due to lack of people :'(. Being capped at 3-wins per player sucks when Imperial and Chaos just zerg rush each other xD).

Also yeah, I was completely not serious about Craftworlds struggling (although I do think 15 pts. was a bit too much for the Exarch flyer). Nevertheless, points reductions are always welcome :D And it seems many struggling models will benefit. I mean, a 45 point drop sounds like a lot, but even that wont make Wraithknights useful


Being serious here, I think we can say that LansXero is in a meta almost as weird as Cheese's. I mean maybe it's super hostile to Eldar or something. IDK.

Well, as the store owner I taught 90% of our community how to play, so they tailor super hard to beat me because then they get to rub it in my face for a while. Luckily for me I both play a pretty cool faction and have more experience than them, so I keep pulling wins I probably wouldn't against more savvy oponents (Rangers stealing random objectives and camping them, a Guardian bomb eating far more shots than it should, someone taking the bait and exposing themselves to blow a plane, etc.) and since money is tight, horde armies arent much of a concern due to $ cost of models. Then again, despite how you may perceive me, Im a pretty friendly oponent. I call people on mistakes so they can make a take back, I try to get them to deploy properly, I help them list build to the best of my knowledge (even coming here to ask for lists when Im stumped) and keep reminding them of their own rules and effects.

I try and tone down the arrogance and the 'told you' attitude because they're customers, but as mentioned before everyone here is used to being called out and 'bullied' so they can git gud.

[Blackhawk748]

Thats only for 'official' 2k games though. We havent played any of those in quite a while, since starting our narrative escalation campaign (Which Team Xenos isnt winning, due to lack of people :'(. Being capped at 3-wins per player sucks when Imperial and Chaos just zerg rush each other xD).

Also yeah, I was completely not serious about Craftworlds struggling (although I do think 15 pts. was a bit too much for the Exarch flyer). Nevertheless, points reductions are always welcome :D And it seems many struggling models will benefit. I mean, a 45 point drop sounds like a lot, but even that wont make Wraithknights useful

I know this is petty, but that thing ruined 7th. It deserves its punishment. My Stompa on the other hand....

[Drasius]

Thats only for 'official' 2k games though.

Oh, well, that's OK then. /sarcasm



Well, as the store owner I taught 90% of our community how to play, so they tailor super hard to beat me because then they get to rub it in my face for a while. Luckily for me I both play a pretty cool faction and have more experience than them, so I keep pulling wins I probably wouldn't against more savvy oponents (Rangers stealing random objectives and camping them, a Guardian bomb eating far more shots than it should, someone taking the bait and exposing themselves to blow a plane, etc.) and since money is tight, horde armies arent much of a concern due to $ cost of models. Then again, despite how you may perceive me, Im a pretty friendly oponent. I call people on mistakes so they can make a take back, I try to get them to deploy properly, I help them list build to the best of my knowledge (even coming here to ask for lists when Im stumped) and keep reminding them of their own rules and effects.

I try and tone down the arrogance and the 'told you' attitude because they're customers, but as mentioned before everyone here is used to being called out and 'bullied' so they can git gud.


Oh, well, that's OK then. /sarcasm

[LansXero]

Oh, well, that's OK then. /sarcasm

Oh, well, that's OK then. /sarcasm

Would you be less incensed if I told you it was the same ratio when I was using Index sisters or Dark Angels? Would it help if I said I once played a different faction every week for 3 months and went 10-1-1? Dunno what to say, perhaps I should just throw games to make people feel better?

[Drasius]

Would you be less incensed if I told you it was the same ratio when I was using Index sisters or Dark Angels? Would it help if I said I once played a different faction every week for 3 months and went 10-1-1? Dunno what to say, perhaps I should just throw games to make people feel better?

Considering that Index SoB were really good and early ed DA were also super strong, no, not really, since you've already told us this.

There's not much else to say - If your customers are "bads" (as Cheese has undiplomatically called them), it won't matter too much what you play, but pointing out that you have played a string of strong armies to a high win% against "bads" also does you no favours.

When I was playing against a new guy, I'd bring out my Thousand Sons or Iron Warriors in 6th/7th. If I wanted to have a casual game, I'd bring my mech tau. If I wanted to win a tournament, then it'd be Knights or Skyhammer cheese. Unfortunately for you, the army you like (Kraftworlders) isn't bad, so you don't conviniently have a trash tier army for teaching newbies, though with all the complaining about SoB you've done, that shouldn't be a problem shortly...

[Forum Explorer]

When I was playing against a new guy, I'd bring out my Thousand Sons or Iron Warriors in 6th/7th. If I wanted to have a casual game, I'd bring my mech tau. If I wanted to win a tournament, then it'd be Knights or Skyhammer cheese. Unfortunately for you, the army you like (Kraftworlders) isn't bad, so you don't conviniently have a trash tier army for teaching newbies, though with all the complaining about SoB you've done, that shouldn't be a problem shortly...

I'll play my Eldar against newbies, but that's more so I can focus on teaching them their army and not have to worry about what my rules are. I actually find that Eldar make for a good opponent to learn against because they actually do stuff in every phase of the game. They move, and they advance. They use a bunch of psyker powers, and can deny them. They go into melee with lots of different units. They actually are effected by morale. They have a wide variety of unit types, and each unit looks very distinct.

Mind you, what army I run against a newbie is often just whatever army I brought in that day. I rarely intend to face a complete beginner. Though when I did teach 40K at a convention, I did end up splitting my Eldar in half, and teaching people using my Eldar.

[Cheesegear]

So, everyone who wanted one really badly, pre-ordered a Sororitas box in less than three minutes.
Everyone else who wanted the Sororitas box, but then saw reviews, was like "Pfft...I'll wait a few months. See if they get good. If I still want them then, I'll get them. Who needs impulse control when a limited release will do it for you?"
Everyone else who read reviews was like "Pfft. No."

Then there's this one dude, who, today, drove 275km (170mi) to camp at our store two hours before open, to get a Sororitas box no-one was interested in.
Well played.

Meanwhile I picked up two Vanguard boxes, because Supressors still don't ****en exist and Eliminators will be sold out forever.

[LeSwordfish]

but as mentioned before everyone here is used to being called out and 'bullied' so they can git gud.

I've restrained myself from saying this several times but I really can't any more: with this attitude, are you sure it's GW that's killing your local community? Nothing else you can think of?

[Drasius]

I'll play my Eldar against newbies, but that's more so I can focus on teaching them their army and not have to worry about what my rules are. I actually find that Eldar make for a good opponent to learn against because they actually do stuff in every phase of the game. They move, and they advance. They use a bunch of psyker powers, and can deny them. They go into melee with lots of different units. They actually are effected by morale. They have a wide variety of unit types, and each unit looks very distinct.

Mind you, what army I run against a newbie is often just whatever army I brought in that day. I rarely intend to face a complete beginner. Though when I did teach 40K at a convention, I did end up splitting my Eldar in half, and teaching people using my Eldar.

Aren't you one of the people who struggled to win games in 6th/7th with Eldar? (Honest question, I remember we had a couple of people here say that and I could never figure out why).


Then there's this one dude, who, today, drove 275km (170mi) to camp at our store two hours before open, to get a Sororitas box no-one was interested in.
Well played.

Meanwhile I picked up two Vanguard boxes, because Supressors still don't ****en exist and Eliminators will be sold out forever.

To be fair, that is pretty much just down the road for those of us in Qld.

And yes, I wish they'd hurry the **** up with the Suppressors already.

Also: http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2019/11/28/chapter-approved-2019-leak-compilation/


Beasts of Nurgle 30
Bloodcrushers 40
Exalted Flamer 50
Fiends 37
Flamers 20
Burning Chariot 100
Exalted Seeker Chariot 70
Seeker Chariot 50
Skull Cannon 80
Soul Grinder 180
Feculent Gnarlmaws 85
Daemon Prince of Chaos 146
Daemon Prince with Wings 155
Daemonic axe 10
Hellforged sword 10
Malefic talons (one set/two sets) 0/10
Slimux 150
Infernal erap… 70
Kairos 250
Lord of Change 250
Lord of Change with sword 255
Masque 78
Keeper 210
Keeper aegis 220
Poxbringer 70
Rotigus 250
Shalaxi 220
Shalaxi aegis 230
Skarbrand 290
Skullmaster 90
Skulltaker 84
Bilepiper 60
Spoil…. 95
Sylleske 210
Bloodtrister 210
Bloodletters 7
Daemonettes 6
– Blue Horrors 5
– Pair of Brimstone Horrors 3
– Pink Horrors 7
Nurglings 18
Plaguebearers
Furies 7
Flesh Hounds / Gore Hounds 15/24
Hellflayer 70
Plague Drones 36
Screamers 23
Seekers 15



Chief Librarian Mephiston down 15 points to 145
Commander Dante down 25 points to 150
Gabriel Seth down 25 points to 110
The Sanguinor down 50 to 130
Death Company down 2 points to 15
Death Company Dreadnought down 10 points to 70
Elites – Death Company Intercessors are 18 – This must be a new unit, not a CP upgrade.
Furioso Dreadnought down 10 points to 60
Primaris Apothecary down 8 points to 60
Reivers down 2 points to 16
Sanguinary Ancient down 9 points to 55
Sanguinary Guard no change – Angelus Boltgun down 3 to 0
Sanguinary Novitiate down 5 points to 50
Terminator Ancient down 21 points to 87



Terv 162 (-18)
Tox 125 (-15)
Warriors 18 (-2)
Tyrannocyte 50 (-25)
both Trygons are 10pts cheaper due to talon costs changing
Acid spray 20 (-5)
Impaler cannon 25 (-5)
Rupture cannon 35 (-14)



Asmodai 120,
Azrael – 150,
Belial – 110,
Sam Sable – 200
Sam Corvex – 140/160




Cultists down to 4,

chaos terms 23,

blight lords 34,

chaos rhino 65.

Possessed down to 17,

warp talons 19,

raptors 15,

Sorcs 80,

disco lord 150




-Demo charges from 5 to 10.
-Heavy mining lasers from 25 to 15
-missile launcher from 15 to 10
-clearance incinerator from 30 to 20
-Heavy seismic cannon -10



Wraithblades Axe Shield -10
Wraithknight -45
Wraithlords -5
Hemlock -20
Spiritseers -10


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[Wraith]

Why am I like this?

There's an old legend that goes: If a wargamer ever finishes painting everything that they own, then they DIE. :smalleek:

You're not procrastinating, you're attempting to achieve immortality.

[LeSwordfish]

Yesss welcome to Titanicus, king of games. If you can get your hands on last year's battleforce, that's a much more reasonable starter than the big Starter Set, even if you have to buy the rules seperately.

And I have two projects on the go, two unpainted armies under my bed and i'm about to get a third. I too will live forever.

[Drasius]

There's an old legend that goes: If a wargamer ever finishes painting everything that they own, then they DIE. :smalleek:

You're not procrastinating, you're attempting to achieve immortality.

My pile of shame is already at nigh unconquerable levels. It's not so much procrastination, just that I continue to buy more stuff faster than I finish old stuff. Finish 10 Devastators, buy a Reaver and a pair of Warhounds. I thought I had it kicked, but alas, it appears that I am in fact doomed to live forever.

[LansXero]

I've restrained myself from saying this several times but I really can't any more: with this attitude, are you sure it's GW that's killing your local community? Nothing else you can think of?

Hold on, when did I say OUR community is dying? Its never been stronger :s. Matter of fact, we've got an AoS tournament this weekend and its so packed between that and 40k that it ran out the MTG people. Plus, we're going strong on our second location at a different city, with people coming out of their Kill Team campaign around christmas and starting 750 and 1000 points games of 40k in the summer.

What makes the growth hard is the pricing. Plenty of people want to play, but proxying and lending only go so far. Its why we dont do WYSIWYG, because nobody can afford another whole box just for a couple of weapon bits. Also why, while it sucks money away from business, we turn a blind eye to orders from recasters, because 1/4 basic salary for a single HQ is insane. Current culture is pretty cool, but I guess you'd have to have been brought up in it or it may seem 'toxic'. For example, we just had a 12 people lunch for one of the 'new' players (1.5 years playing by now, but started with 8th and the store) who is going away to the US to work for the summer. The same people who keep making fun of how he rolls strings of 1 at a time or how 1k Sons smite spam is pure cheese or how he is whipped because his mom keeps making him drop games to go pick up his sisters put together a going away celebration and spent all day remembering all the clutch plays and funny times with the guy. End of college and start of work life often creates rifts that never close, so it was important for all of us. But sure, its a 'dying community' full of 'toxic' people.

[Cheesegear]

What makes the growth hard is the pricing...

What I've found, is that it's not the telling of 'get good' that puts people off. It's the inability to get good, that puts people off. I've said it time and time again; Losing isn't what makes losers feel bad.

Ever tried telling a Necrons' player to get good? They can't. Unlike Grey Knights, there's not even any Allies to choose from. Once you have all the units you want out of your Necron Codex, that's it, you're done. If you're not good by then, you may as well change Faction. Don't want to change Faction? Well, looks like you're gonna quit, unless people in your meta deliberately cater to you and only you.

Ever tried telling a Space Marine player who has decided 'No Primaris Marines' ('cause that lets them use the same models that they've been using for 10 years, and what they really mean is 'I'm not buying new models') to get good? They can't. GW is slowly nerfing out small!Marines, and buffing in Big Bois. If you want to get good at Space Marines, buy new models (i.e; Ow my business model!).

A conversation should look like this:

Get Good!
"...How?"
Well, you may have noticed that basically everyone outside the competitive cancer scene, plays Maelstrom. Which means that any net-list you've pulled from an ITC tournament is inherently flawed. You can't just castle up and win games. You actually have to move around the board, and build an army that can claim board control, and using a play-style that doesn't involve sitting in a corner of the board for three turns and rely on racking 12 Kill Points on Turn 1...'Cause in Maelstrom, that's not a thing.
"Ohhh...Now I get it."

As opposed to...

Get Good!
"Well I have no intention of self-improvement, it's you who should cater to me, always. Even when I build a poor army, and even when I make stupid mistakes like sending a Phobos Captain into Melee and trying to pretend it's just as good as a Smash Captain, you still have cater for my mistakes and, I dunno...Just let me make mistakes and make it so I can win games!"
Uhh...Why would I not capitalise on your mistakes and get a basically free Warlord kill? (Regardless of our respective army lists, running a Phobos Captain into Melee is simply a mistake something a Bad would do)
"Reeeee...."

So, yeah.
"I spent all this money on these models, and they suck and there's nothing I can do about it." is what makes people quit in my experience.

[LansXero]

What I've found, is that it's not the telling of 'get good' that puts people off. It's the inability to get good, that puts people off. I've said it time and time again; Losing isn't what makes losers feel bad.

Some people, yeah. Some are content to take their faction as far as it'll go. Like the guy who will always play RDW and nothing else, he know he loses post-sideboard or that Midrange Lifegain is the meta. But then, that 4-1 feels like a GP win, because of all the random wacky tech he sideboards himself. But for some, its totally sucky not being able to get the good stuff, be it because its priced out of your reach (hello FW Custodes) or because it doesnt exist in your faction.

This is why Doubles is our most popular format. Easier to get 1250 - 1500 viable points out of your codex than the full 2k, and allies matrix no longer matter so there is a lot more flexibility on what you can shore up your weaknesses with.

Finally, there is something to be said for 'lets git gud, together'. Comradership isnt all about back pats and coddling each other.


Ever tried telling a Necrons' player to get good? They can't. Unlike Grey Knights, there's not even any Allies to choose from. Once you have all the units you want out of your Necron Codex, that's it, you're done. If you're not good by then, you may as well change Faction. Don't want to change Faction? Well, looks like you're gonna quit, unless people in your meta deliberately cater to you and only you.

Ever tried telling a Space Marine player who has decided 'No Primaris Marines' ('cause that lets them use the same models that they've been using for 10 years, and what they really mean is 'I'm not buying new models') to get good? They can't. GW is slowly nerfing out small!Marines, and buffing in Big Bois. If you want to get good at Space Marines, buy new models (i.e; Ow my business model!).

Destroyers are also damn expensive so the Necron players we have are in a rough spot to get past their limitations. Still, melee-necrons are solid for small points / doubles, and well they do allright in KT. Short-marines are viable the same way, Devastator spam plus scouts, with BA for melee, done. Its not great, but its not the worst.


A conversation should look like this:

Get Good!
"...How?"
Well, you may have noticed that basically everyone outside the competitive cancer scene, plays Maelstrom. Which means that any net-list you've pulled from an ITC tournament is inherently flawed. You can't just castle up and win games. You actually have to move around the board, and build an army that can claim board control, and using a play-style that doesn't involve sitting in a corner of the board for three turns and rely on racking 12 Kill Points on Turn 1...'Cause in Maelstrom, that's not a thing.
"Ohhh...Now I get it."

As opposed to...

Get Good!
"Well I have no intention of self-improvement, it's you who should cater to me, always. Even when I build a poor army, and even when I make stupid mistakes like sending a Phobos Captain into Melee and trying to pretend it's just as good as a Smash Captain, you still have cater for my mistakes and, I dunno...Just let me make mistakes and make it so I can win games!"
Uhh...Why would I not capitalise on your mistakes and get a basically free Warlord kill? (Regardless of our respective army lists, running a Phobos Captain into Melee is simply a mistake something a Bad would do)
"Reeeee...."

So, yeah.
"I spent all this money on these models, and they suck and there's nothing I can do about it." is what makes people quit in my experience.


That little bolded bit out there makes a world of difference. I was always a fat kid, south americans are crazy in love with soccer. Should I ask them to slow down so I can actually catch the damn ball before passing out from being out of breath? Maybe I should ask for our fields to not be made out of fkin concrete, since you know falling into cement hurts like a bitch and happens all the time when you play? Or, perhaps, I could just try and play to my strengths, get to the back line, field length no longer matters I dont have to outrun the strikers just keep them from getting a clean shot, just push the ball out of the red zone. I dont have to outjump them, just make them mess up the headshot. Yes I was dealt a crappy hand, so I can go whine about it with the other shut-ins, or I can make the best out of it and find happyness on the relative success of it. Its a matter of perspective I guess, but since 'not being able to do stuff about it' is an every day reality for us, getting pissy about it in a game of all things is really alien to us.

I mean, look at Venezuela. A little corruption and the country goes up in flames. People flood the continent because they somehow cant make their country work anymore. Peruvians? We took 1 million % inflation to the chin in the 80s and the country is still there. Every single president we've had since 1985 is currently in jail or prosecuted. But we make do, we deal with it and move on. Guess we're just weird like that.

[Cheesegear]

This is why Doubles is our most popular format. Easier to get 1250 - 1500 viable points out of your codex than the full 2k, and allies matrix no longer matter so there is a lot more flexibility on what you can shore up your weaknesses with.

Still, melee-necrons are solid for small points / doubles...

I love my Necrons Doubles list. 11 Destroyers and 6 Wraiths. As long as my partner can spam Troops, we're all good. :smalltongue:

[LeSwordfish]

Get Good!
"Well I have no intention of self-improvement, it's you who should cater to me, always. Even when I build a poor army, and even when I make stupid mistakes like sending a Phobos Captain into Melee and trying to pretend it's just as good as a Smash Captain, you still have cater for my mistakes and, I dunno...Just let me make mistakes and make it so I can win games!"
Uhh...Why would I not capitalise on your mistakes and get a basically free Warlord kill? (Regardless of our respective army lists, running a Phobos Captain into Melee is simply a mistake something a Bad would do)
"Reeeee...."


You keep throwing together this imaginary strawman noob to argue with and its really obnoxious.

[Forum Explorer]

Aren't you one of the people who struggled to win games in 6th/7th with Eldar? (Honest question, I remember we had a couple of people here say that and I could never figure out why).


No, I could win games, but because I refused to run jetbike Eldar, or at least, Jetbikes with scatter lasers (I'd use Shuirken Catapults) and similarly refused to run Wraithknights, I actually had more fair games and would lose matches to all sorts of things. But I'd still beat all sorts of things as well.


I love my Necrons Doubles list. 11 Destroyers and 6 Wraiths. As long as my partner can spam Troops, we're all good. :smalltongue:

There is a Necron player in my meta who has just disavowed troops altogether. He says he only needs 6 CP because he only uses a couple of stratagems and the units he takes are just so effective they can just kill anything off of whatever objective he needs to take.

[Blackhawk748]

You keep throwing together this imaginary strawman noob to argue with and its really obnoxious.

Go to Dakka Dakka. They exist.

[LeSwordfish]

Cool, okay, can you find me the post where someone says "you shouldn't charge me because that's not fun"?

[Blackhawk748]

Cool, okay, can you find me the post where someone says "you shouldn't charge me because that's not fun"?

A: I havent been on Dakka for years, cuz I went to the Mantic forums.

B: Thats hyperbole and you know it.

Back in 7th there were people complaining about various things being too good at melee cuz they could beat a SM Captain. Not some super melee captain mind you, just a regular old Captain. There were people saying melee was too strong. Others said Melee is too weak. More said Pyschic too strong. Others said its too weak.

Most of those were explained by other posters as "Dude, your list sucks at dealing with that, tweak this and you should be fine" which was usually answered with "But I don't want to."

So yes, they exist.

[LeSwordfish]

B: Thats hyperbole and you know it.

Yes, and when you invent an imaginary opponent to make a hyperbolic statement which you can then effortlessly debunk, its strawmanning and its really obnoxious.

[LansXero]

Whats hyperbolic about "bad players would rather be catered to than improve" ? I thought it was an obvious truth for most games, be they physical or online.

[Squark]

Yes, and when you invent an imaginary opponent to make a hyperbolic statement which you can then effortlessly debunk, its strawmanning and its really obnoxious.

It only felt mildly hyperbolic to me, although most people I know would at least recognize sending a key model into melee with just a combat knife was a bad plan once it backfired. Granted, I mostly play kill team these days, so I actually have had my bolt carbine Lieutenant charge with nothing but his fists to fight with, because it was still the most useful thing he could do when the enemy is either in melee or out of range.

Edit: Killteam annual will contain a comprehensive collection of every mission and every tactic, so no more worrying about exclusives!

Sadly, it looks like the Sisters don't get units to go with elites, which is a pity. I would have liked a Seraphim Kill team.

[Cheesegear]

You keep throwing together this imaginary strawman noob to argue with and its really obnoxious.

They're not imaginary. They're very real. I play against them all the time. They continuously bring **** lists - not even Themed lists, just terrible ones - and they continuously make mistakes bad choices - usually because it's 'more fun' to take a certain action (I do my best to tone down my lists when I play those people, but I wont throw games). Then they lose six or seven games in a row, and can't or wont understand what gives. And they quit, because everyone is power-gaming a-holes.

It's a Straw Man, sure. But those noobs scrubs are definitely not imaginary.


Whats hyperbolic about "bad players would rather be catered to than improve" ? I thought it was an obvious truth for most games...

For most things, in general.
When you talked about being a fat kid, I thought the next part was going to be "...and then I took up martial arts and boxing and walked/ran/jogged and jumped rope every single day until I was no longer a fat kid, and it took me six-to-eight months. And then suddenly I found out I was really good at football Rugby... And then I got hit by a car whilst riding a motorbike." ...'Cause that's what I did.

[Celticbear]

Aight, so I'm drumming up some Deathwatch/Inquisition writing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?603751-Brotherhood-(Warhammer-40k-Deathwatch-FanFic)&p=24285586#post24285586), if ya'll wanna check it out that'd be really nice.

[LansXero]

When you talked about being a fat kid, I thought the next part was going to be "...and then I took up martial arts and boxing and walked/ran/jogged and jumped rope every single day until I was no longer a fat kid, and it took me six-to-eight months. And then suddenly I found out I was really good at football Rugby... And then I got hit by a car whilst riding a motorbike." ...'Cause that's what I did.

See, thats realizing a Banshee list is crap and buying Crimson Hunters. My story is more akin to a Necrons player who really cant go any further than 'get Destroyers then pray' (although they just got some well deserved point cuts).

My first 2 years in highschool I went to this school that was sponsored by a University so their Education students had somewhere to practice and test theories. Due to lack of students it only had 1 class per grade, and it allowed people with bad conduct records and people who'd flunked 2 or 3 years in a row. So, our yearly soccer championship was a slaughter, as you had kids as young as 11 against 17 year old dudes who had hit puberty early. My first year I made the team purely because nobody else wanted to )(and a girl, because of course). We took silver, because there was this kid who was pretty good; he was fast, could keep a clear mind and could dance around the rest of the team and score in our faces. But instead of falling into the southamerican cliche of 'Messi / Pele will solve it', he actually got us to play like an european team: less dependant on individual talent, more focused on teamwork. less jogo bonito, more orderly aproaches. Because he knew that as good as he was he couldnt outplay the older guys, and we could've gone "screw you, having to play guys half again our size with voices as thick as our parents' is unfair bull**** and we wont have it'; but as mentioned before we just dont do that. Next year we got crushed, of course, because people realized size and age difference alone werent enough and actually trained, but even for someone as lazy as me, it was amazing realizing just how far my flabby chubby short legged body could go. Actually being able to look back and see how far I'd come is something I wouldnt change for anything. Competition is stimulating, hell, I'd even say its addictive, making steady progress, slow as it might be, is just the best; every step you see the results, you get better, faster, smarter, figure out some trick, some cool strat, pull off a weird angled shot, a perfectly timed pass, stand in the right place to eat a foul... and I could've missed all of that, just by going 'woohoo I cant make it, I cant, I cant'

[Meatgrinder]

Does it strike anyone else as strange that, on this specific thread, angry yelling and complaining about the hobby is always followed by mellow philosophical musing?

[Drasius]

I'd be surprised if it didn't, it's generally how it works IRL.

Once all the "REEEEEEEE" stops, everyone has had their vent, calms the hell down and then goes back to being regular people. As cool as 40k is, it's (generally) not cool enough to treat like some inviolable truth like many do with religion or politics, so people can accept that other people like different things or have opposing viewpoints on without thinking that they're babykillers just because they disagree.

Generally speaking, you don't stick around in 40k long enough, nor visit these sort of forums if you're not at least a little bit of a nerd, and while the social graces aren't always the best, there's usually enough intelligence that people can see both sides of the argument, even if they favour one side or the other.

[Blackhawk748]

Does it strike anyone else as strange that, on this specific thread, angry yelling and complaining about the hobby is always followed by mellow philosophical musing?

No, cuz as Drasius said, venting. I mean, I'm the perfect example. Once I got the anger out I could calm down and see I was being a bit silly. I still don't like Miracle Dice and consider them to be a bit of a stain on an otherwise solid improvement to a flawed base (Sisters being trapped with only using Bolters, Flamers, and Meltas is what really screws them, let's be honest here) and figure out thats why I got so upset over them.

I mean, I really do like the rest of the Dex, even the Triumph thing which I find moronic as hell is at least trying to be interesting, so me getting randomly philosophical and calmer afterwards is because of realization. Which I assume is how it typically happens.

Also its generally how I operate in life, just that 95% of the time its in my head, and with less vitriol, cuz Im not a terribly social person. Like, y'know, most nerds.

[druid91]

I'd be surprised if it didn't, it's generally how it works IRL.

Once all the "REEEEEEEE" stops, everyone has had their vent, calms the hell down and then goes back to being regular people. As cool as 40k is, it's (generally) not cool enough to treat like some inviolable truth like many do with religion or politics, so people can accept that other people like different things or have opposing viewpoints on without thinking that they're babykillers just because they disagree.

Generally speaking, you don't stick around in 40k long enough, nor visit these sort of forums if you're not at least a little bit of a nerd, and while the social graces aren't always the best, there's usually enough intelligence that people can see both sides of the argument, even if they favour one side or the other.

You say that like there aren't people who treat the Imperial Guardsmen's Uplifting Primer like a Holy Book. :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Does it strike anyone else as strange that, on this specific thread, angry yelling and complaining about the hobby is always followed by mellow philosophical musing?

Kübler-Ross model of the buff/nerf cycle:

Stage 1: Not my 40K. I can't believe GW could be this stupid,
Stage 2: Here's why everything sucks, and anyone who disagrees with me is objectively wrong. Reeeeeeeeeeeee,
Stage 3: Here's how I would've done it, if I used my brain,
Stage 4: This game sucks and I hate everything I own,
Stage 5: Okay, this is the new normal. Adapt or die, I guess. How do I salvage this nerf? Can I make use of the buff?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/K%C3%BCbler_Ross%27s_stages_of_grief.png

[LeSwordfish]

I don't really care about your personal situation: I am just fed up of the dominant personality in this thread being a massive ********.

(Also what's with the "reee", **** off with that, this isnt 4chan.)

[Cheesegear]

Turns out the Vanguard Space Marine box has a number of un-helmeted Marines. Lucky for me, I bought an Infiltrators' box some time, which I was forced to stop building 'cause I'd heard that the Vanguard box was coming out (in my head, everything's come out except Supressors, so why wouldn't those molds be discontinued?). So I have a set of Infiltrator parts I can use to make the mono-build ones less terrible, and I can use the 'real' box to make Incursors out of.

The one that really bothers me is the one chucking the Smoke Grenade. It just doesn't look good.

Real question is, is it possible to make a Battle Company, in 8th Ed. and not have it be terrible? Since a Battle Company after Guilliman's Reformation is x2 Close Support, x2 Fire Support, and 'x6 Battleline' actually opens up a whole range of units.

To Excel, away!

[Drasius]

I don't really care about your personal situation: I am just fed up of the dominant personality in this thread being a massive ********.

(Also what's with the "reee", **** off with that, this isnt 4chan.)

Because I have zero doubt this thread would be upset if we said "autistic screaching" instead.

Also, if you're sick of Cheesegear being an arse (in your opinion), I'm not sure if you can get away with calling him such and telling him to **** off without coming across as a little hypocritical mate.


Turns out the Vanguard Space Marine box has a number of un-helmeted Marines. Lucky for me, I bought an Infiltrators' box some time, which I was forced to stop building 'cause I'd heard that the Vanguard box was coming out (in my head, everything's come out except Supressors, so why wouldn't those molds be discontinued?). So I have a set of Infiltrator parts I can use to make the mono-build ones less terrible, and I can use the 'real' box to make Incursors out of.

The one that really bothers me is the one chucking the Smoke Grenade. It just doesn't look good.

Real question is, is it possible to make a Battle Company, in 8th Ed. and not have it be terrible? Since a Battle Company after Guilliman's Reformation is x2 Close Support, x2 Fire Support, and 'x6 Battleline' actually opens up a whole range of units.

To Excel, away!

Part of why I wanted to do a brigade (see spoiler) was to do a relatively fluffy, yet competative pass at a demi-company. I strongly suspect that you could make a very competative demi company these days if all you cared about was 2/2/6 since 5 troops is a double battalion which everyone was taking anyway and there's a lot of "'cause I think it's cool" in the list below.


107 - Captain, Jump Pack, Power Sword, Storm Shield
90 - Chaplain, Jump Pack
83 - Lieutenant, Jump Pack, Power Axe

171 - 10x Intercessors, Grenade Launcher
80 - 5x Sniper Scouts, Camo
70 - Scouts, Camo
85 - 5x Tacs, Lascannon
85 - 5x Tacs, Lascannon
82 - 5x Tacs, Plas, Combi-Plas

222 - 6x Agressors
121 - 5x VV, 5x Storm Shields, 2x Power Axes, 1x Thunder Hammer
121 - 5x VV, 5x Storm Shields, 2x Power Axes, 1x Thunder Hammer

90 - 3x Suppressors
65 - Land Speeder, 2x Heavy Bolters
65 - Land Speeder, 2x Heavy Bolters

150 - 5x Devs, 4x Grav, Cherub
155 - 5x Devs, 3x Las, 1x Heavy Bolter, Cherub
92 - Thunderfire

65 - Drop Pod

1999

Still debating if it's worth swapping an Agressor for a Thunder Hammer on the Captain so I'm not spending a CP on Burning Blade.

[Wraith]

And then I got hit by a car whilst riding a motorbike." ...'Cause that's what I did.

Weird coincidence; That Car just got announced for the next expansion of Codex: Craftworlds!

...It's already had a points reduction and gets +1 damage. Git gud, scrub! :smallwink:

Seriously though, Warhammer Community just announced a bunch of stuff coming out on the next WHW Open Day, some of which looks.... well....

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/fdb40318.jpg

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/6201b253.jpg
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/70fd596d.jpg

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/0898438c.jpg

Note the chicken-leg landing gear hiding under the wing.... :smallconfused:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/4052329c.jpg

[Drasius]

Whatever the **** this Ad Mech thing is....]https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/0898438c.jpg

Thanks. I hate it.

I'm not sure what I was expecting for the shrine, but it looked better than what we got.

We're going to get so many thick thicc thigh jokes about repentia, and even though it hasn't started, it's already gotten old.

[Grim Portent]

The Triumph of St. Katherine is way too busy. I blame the cherubs myself, they take up a lot of vertical and horizontal real estate. Would have been better as a hover platform or being carried by penitents or something.

I like the Repentia, they look a bit like body builders which suits rather well imo. I do think they could do with more self-flagellation themed stuff. I have a hard time imagining them going into battle with bare heads rather than wearing some kind of uncomfortable, shameful or actively painful headgear.

[LansXero]

It looks horrid to pick up, transport and move around. Aesthetically its... well, terribly busy, but thats how processions go. Simply not putting in the Cherubs should help a lot though.

[9mm]

my one complaint about the triumph is there is no obvious person to stick in a fedora.

[Cheesegear]

Weird coincidence; That Car just got announced for the next expansion of Codex: Craftworlds!
...It's already had a points reduction and gets +1 damage. Git gud, scrub! :smallwink:

I lol'd so hard. Well played.


Whatever the **** this Ad Mech thing is...

...wat

[9mm]

...wat

Apparently DaVinci made STCs.

[Enixon]

Apparently DaVinci made STCs.


Honestly, I could believe it, they already have Tesla's Skull as a lightning shooting anti-tank relic after all.

[Squark]

I lol'd so hard. Well played.



...wat

I think GW is actively trolling us at this point. That abomination is so gloriously stupid that I kind of like it.

[Grim Portent]

It's like a steampunk ornithopter had a baby with a storm hawk. It does look like the sort of thing you'd see in an 80s cartoon though, which is a common trend for a lot of GW designs.

[Blackhawk748]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/fdb40318.jpg

Oh good lord. It's worse than I thought. It looks SO FRAGILE. Ditch the cherubs and it'd be fine, but why would you put those on? For the love of god!

Like, Im sitting here cringing at the thought of trying to transport this.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/6201b253.jpg
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/70fd596d.jpg

These look good. Nice update to the old models.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/0898438c.jpg

Note the chicken-leg landing gear hiding under the wing.... :smallconfused:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5wWqxDx3wO0/TymxrrmuFaI/AAAAAAAAArw/JMFy6cAt8zw/s1600/Nathan-Fillion-reaction-gif.gif

I...I got nothing here. This doesn't match the rest of the Ad Mech style at all (like, does it actually flap its wings?) I have no idea what they were thinking. I don't even know who asked for this.

I...Ya, I got nothing.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/4052329c.jpg


Huh. That looks nice. though I don't know if its the paintjob or the angle or what but it looks like its melting. Kinda weird there. Is that just me?

[Wraith]

Like, I'm sitting here cringing at the thought of trying to transport this.

Exactly the same thought occurred to me - it'd need a box all to itself with no layer of foam above it. Definitely lose the cherubs and make it more 'flat', but then you're losing half of the model.


These look good. Nice update to the old models.

I agree. They look like soldiers who do heavy PT so that they can run around swinging giant chainswords a people, not like swimsuit models posing with toys. Probably the best that we could have asked for, given their previous incarnations.


I...Ya, I got nothing.

If it had been made for AoS I think it would have been great - definitely a nice sculpt that is suitable for Kharadron Overlords or maybe something cooked up by the Skaven.... But chicken-legs underneath skeletal wings? The Ad Mech, for as much fun we makes with memes about them, are on the bleeding edge of Imperial technology, they're not building stuff from the 16th cenury and slapping guns on the front.


Huh. That looks nice. though I don't know if its the paintjob or the angle or what but it looks like its melting. Kinda weird there. Is that just me?

As well as a dozen unnecessary fins (it's orky, it's fine) it's got a black 'flame' pattern, it could probably have used a bit more contrast to make it stand out a bit more.

[Blackhawk748]

Exactly the same thought occurred to me - it'd need a box all to itself with no layer of foam above it. Definitely lose the cherubs and make it more 'flat', but then you're losing half of the model.

Like... how its the one with the Fleur even attached? It looks like its just floating up there. Ya, this is the Saint Celestine problem all over again. No Cherubs and models need firm connection to the base. Looks fine if you ditch them honestly, so it looks like just CAD slapping.


I agree. hey look like soldiers who do heavy PT so that they can run around swinging giant chainswords a people, not like swimsuit models posing with toys. Probably the best that we could have asked for, given their previous incarnations.

I was looking a bit more and I got worried that we got Schwazenagger with boobs, but I realized that seemed to just be an angle thing and they have reasonably sized biceps. Their legs are freaking huge though, which Im not surprised by.

And ya, the old ones had too small arms, Im not sure if that was some weird modeling quirk of being metal or they just seemed tiny because the Catachans of that time looked like He-Man. There's some weird things in all old GW models.


If it had been made for AoS I think it would have been great - definitely a nice sculpt that is suitable for Kharadron Overlords or maybe something cooked up by the Skaven.... But chicken-legs underneath skeletal wings? The Ad Mech, for as much fun we makes with memes about them, are on the bleeding edge of Imperial technology, they're not building stuff from the 16th cenury and slapping guns on the front.

Like, the weirdest thing Ad Mech as model wise is the Chicken Walkers, which just look like Sentinels with Motorcycle seats on them, so its not that weird. That thing?

It looks like some insnae thing the Imperial College of Engineers in WHFB came up with, or Dwarves or Skaven. Like... Yes Ad Mech goes Baroque on occasion, but that is just downright nuts.



As well as a dozen unnecessary fins (it's orky, it's fine) it's got a black 'flame' pattern, it could probably have used a bit more contrast to make it stand out a bit more.

I figured that's what was going on, I jsut wanted to make sure it wasn't just me.

[Forum Explorer]

Aight, so I'm drumming up some Deathwatch/Inquisition writing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?603751-Brotherhood-(Warhammer-40k-Deathwatch-FanFic)&p=24285586#post24285586), if ya'll wanna check it out that'd be really nice.

You should post this in the fluff thread.



The Triumph of St. Katherine is way too busy. I blame the cherubs myself, they take up a lot of vertical and horizontal real estate. Would have been better as a hover platform or being carried by penitents or something.

I like the Repentia, they look a bit like body builders which suits rather well imo. I do think they could do with more self-flagellation themed stuff. I have a hard time imagining them going into battle with bare heads rather than wearing some kind of uncomfortable, shameful or actively painful headgear.

The Cherubs do kinda make the model much more difficult to do anything with.

Eh, the self-flagellation stuff never made that much sense to me. Being in pain makes it harder to fight and open wounds are a horrible thing to have on the battlefield. They are trying to redeem themselves, not just commit suicide. I also like the crude armor that some of them are wearing. Overall, I feel like the Repentia are the most human looking models I've seen them make.


And once again, I find myself liking the weird new Ad Mech thing that everyone hates. It's a hopper/glider, that would actually be ideal on a planet like Mars.

[Wraith]

Like... how is the one with the Fleur even attached? It looks like its just floating up there.

Look really closely - the cherub with the fleur is attached by the wing of the one next to it, which in turn is held up by the long, unrolled scroll of paper, which is attached to the shoulder of the Sister with the platter of rose petals in her hands. I think.

'Delicate' doesn't even begin to describe it. :smallconfused:

[Blackhawk748]

And once again, I find myself liking the weird new Ad Mech thing that everyone hates. It's a hopper/glider, that would actually be ideal on a planet like Mars.

If it was some goofy art piece in a story, or some weird personal transport vehicle on Mars I wouldn't care as much because then its just back to normal 40k weirdness. But its a War Vehicle and... like what the hell? We have Thunderhawks, Stormtalons, Lightnings, Thunderbolts and Vultures and the Ad Mech uses...that thing?

Like, I was expecting a souped up Vulture loaded down with either Phosphor Weapons or Volkite Blaster, maybe one with a huge Eradication Array or Neutron Laser. Y'know, the angry fist of the Machine God not a Magos' personal toy.

Like, Im still a bit annoyed that they didn't go full into the Obliteratii of the Ad Mech. I want my Murder Servitors and Disintegration arrays on horrific Eclipse Phase style war machines like the novels gave me, and I say this as someone who likes the Kataphrons, I'd just like somre more options in various slots.


Look really closely - the cherub with the fleur is attached by the wing of the one next to it, which in turn is held up by the long, unrolled scroll of paper, which is attached to the shoulder of the Sister with the platter of rose petals in her hands. I think.

'Delicate' doesn't even begin to describe it. :smallconfused:

Oh ya, that was CAD slapped on. We need to establish a new test for all GW models. Make the designer assemble it, paint it and then have to transport it, in their own vehicle or by other means of their own one hour away.

I think we'd see less utterly ridiculous bit add ons like that

[LansXero]

You should post this in the fluff thread.




The Cherubs do kinda make the model much more difficult to do anything with.

Eh, the self-flagellation stuff never made that much sense to me. Being in pain makes it harder to fight and open wounds are a horrible thing to have on the battlefield. They are trying to redeem themselves, not just commit suicide. I also like the crude armor that some of them are wearing. Overall, I feel like the Repentia are the most human looking models I've seen them make.


And once again, I find myself liking the weird new Ad Mech thing that everyone hates. It's a hopper/glider, that would actually be ideal on a planet like Mars.

Im guessing the self-flagellation would be to trigger hypno conditioned responses or a pump of stimulant drugs, not to actually cause lasting damage. Sort of like mini Eversors

[Blackhawk748]

Im guessing the self-flagellation would be to trigger hypno conditioned responses or a pump of stimulant drugs, not to actually cause lasting damage. Sort of like mini Eversors

On that note, do we know how Repentia did this Codex? I'm nopt expecting 'good' but are they at least usable? And I mean more usable than Vespid in 6th edition.

[Forum Explorer]

On that note, do we know how Repentia did this Codex? I'm nopt expecting 'good' but are they at least usable? And I mean more usable than Vespid in 6th edition.

A reviewer was hyping them up, though I'm not sure how valid they actually are. I think you can get them up to 5 attacks each at S8 Ap-2 2D, and then you can make them fight again. Also if they die in the fight phase I'm pretty sure you can make them do mortal wounds back on a 4+.

[Wraith]

The next three Psychic Awakening books have been announced.

Book 4: Ritual of the Damned (confirmed to be Grey Knights/Dark Angels/Thousand Sons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoF0m2pvvCw)) Also, check out that voice - it's the Dungeon Keeper! :smalltongue:

Book 5: The Greater Good

Book 6: Saga of the Beast

Five is, of course, going to be Tau versus... More Tau? Maybe the homeworld vs the Farsight Enclaves, or either/both going out to track down the 4h Sphere Expansionists? Not yet clear who he antagonists are going to be, as nearly all of the other big factions have been spoken for, and Tau vs Necrons feels a bit... weird and pointless.

And with a name like that, Book 6 can only be Orks - Maybe Ghazghull is finally going to achieve his Final Form and literally go Beastmode on some poor schlubbs. Astra Militarum feels like a good match for them, but again, no word on their counterpart yet.

...If I have to buy another freaking book with a picture of someone else's army on the front cover, like I did for Faith & Fury, I am going to be seriously pissed... And I play both Grey Knights and Thousand Sons so it's virtually guaranteed to be Dark Angels!

[Blackhawk748]

A reviewer was hyping them up, though I'm not sure how valid they actually are. I think you can get them up to 5 attacks each at S8 Ap-2 2D, and then you can make them fight again. Also if they die in the fight phase I'm pretty sure you can make them do mortal wounds back on a 4+.

So they can actually put out damage. All right. Now to wait and see if they have any ability to actually get into combat.


The next three Psychic Awakening books have been announced.

Book 4: Ritual of the Damned (confirmed to be Grey Knights/Dark Angels/Thousand Sons (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoF0m2pvvCw)) Also, check out that voice - it's the Dungeon Keeper! :smalltongue:

Book 5: The Greater Good

Book 6: Saga of the Beast

Five is, of course, going to be Tau versus... More Tau? Maybe the homeworld vs the Farsight Enclaves, or either/both going out to track down the 4h Sphere Expansionists? Not yet clear who he antagonists are going to be, as nearly all of the other big factions have been spoken for, and Tau vs Necrons feels a bit... weird and pointless.

And with a name like that, Book 6 can only be Orks - Maybe Ghazghull is finally going to achieve his Final Form and literally go Beastmode on some poor schlubbs. Astra Militarum feels like a good match for them, but again, no word on their counterpart yet.

...If I have to buy another freaking book with a picture of someone else's army on the front cover, like I did for Faith & Fury, I am going to be seriously pissed... And I play both Grey Knights and Thousand Sons so it's virtually guaranteed to be Dark Angels!

I would assume that Saga would be Orks vs Nids cuz that was still going on last I checked.

[Wraith]

Book 1 - Phoenix Rising (Aeldari vs Drucharii)

Book 2 - Faith & Fury (Black Templars vs. Traitor Marines)

Book 3 - Blood of Baal (Blood Angels vs Tyranids)

Of all the major factions announced so far there are some outstanding: Space Wolves, Ad Mech, Astra Militarum, Necrons, Death Guard and Daemons. Which is assuming that there aren't any more small factions getting focus, like Black Templars - that could include the Inquisition, Custodes, Militarum Tempestus and the outstanding Traitor Marines that weren't in Faith & Fury like the Black Legion.

Orks vs. Imperial Guard seems to make sense as the Orks burst forth and encounter the Imperium again, but that's just a guess on my part. Tau versus.....? Your guess is as good as mine. Ad Mech makes sense, if they're getting new models like the new flyer, maybe? :smalltongue:

[Squark]

Between previous rumors and the codex writer's love of the word "Saga," I'm pretty sure book 6 is Space Wolves vs. Ghahzgull.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh come on, with a name like Saga of the Beast, you think it's going to be anyone other than Space Wolves? :smalltongue:

[Wraith]

Oh yeah, I see it now. Nice thinking, guys.

So.... Space Wolves versus Orks - that incredibly well known rivalry that... has... never.... ever.... been mentioned before? :smallconfused:

Helbrecht is gonna be pissed when he finds out that he got bogged down fighting Word Bearer nerds while Wolf-Lord Wolfy McWolfington stepped in and took a scalp that was rightfully his. Now there's a story I'd like to read about; the Master of the Black Templars steps off a ship, immediately back-hands some Space Wolf across his stupid, pointy-toothed beard and asks him to explain just what in the Emperor-damned hells does he think he's playing at? :smalltongue:

[Blackhawk748]

Oh yeah, I see it now. Nice thinking, guys.

So.... Space Wolves versus Orks - that incredibly well known rivalry that... has... never.... ever.... been mentioned before? :smallconfused:

Helbrecht is gonna be pissed when he finds out that he got bogged down fighting Word Bearer nerds while Wolf-Lord Wolfy McWolfington stepped in and took a scalp that was rightfully his. Now there's a story I'd like to read about; the Master of the Black Templars steps off a ship, immediately back-hands some Space Wolf across his stupid, pointy-toothed beard and asks him to explain just what in the Emperor-damned hells does he think he's playing at? :smalltongue:

Ya, thats a combo I'm sad didn't happen.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh yeah, I see it now. Nice thinking, guys.

So.... Space Wolves versus Orks - that incredibly well known rivalry that... has... never.... ever.... been mentioned before? :smallconfused:

Helbrecht is gonna be pissed when he finds out that he got bogged down fighting Word Bearer nerds while Wolf-Lord Wolfy McWolfington stepped in and took a scalp that was rightfully his. Now there's a story I'd like to read about; the Master of the Black Templars steps off a ship, immediately back-hands some Space Wolf across his stupid, pointy-toothed beard and asks him to explain just what in the Emperor-damned hells does he think he's playing at? :smalltongue:

*Ahem* Sanctus Reach. I wonder if they're going to bring back Grukk Face-Rippa, since he has a model still and all.

[Drasius]

Book 5: The Greater Good

Book 6: Saga of the Beast

Five is, of course, going to be Tau versus... More Tau? Maybe the homeworld vs the Farsight Enclaves, or either/both going out to track down the 4h Sphere Expansionists? Not yet clear who he antagonists are going to be, as nearly all of the other big factions have been spoken for, and Tau vs Necrons feels a bit... weird and pointless.

And with a name like that, Book 6 can only be Orks - Maybe Ghazghull is finally going to achieve his Final Form and literally go Beastmode on some poor schlubbs. Astra Militarum feels like a good match for them, but again, no word on their counterpart yet.

Tau vs Guard or AdMech wouldn't be a huge surprise to be honest. Not only is Tau vs Enclaves horrendously overdone at this point, it also means you can't sell 1 book to two (or more) different factions.

We already knew one of the books was going to be Orks vs Woofs for a while, so yeah, if the name didn't give it away, we're just going to do Sanctus Reach all over again. At least it's not Woofs vs Dustbins for the 43rd time.

[Drasius]

Guard point changes:

Astropath -11
Leman Russ -15
Mortar +4
Lascannon -5
Missile launcher -5
Scions -2
Baneblade -40
Banehammer -40
Banesword -40
Gatling punisher +10
Ratling -2
Wyvern +10
Crusader -2
Ogryn +6

Ork changes:

Bommdakka -20
Kopta -10
KBB -20
Skrappjet -10
Rukkatrukk -40
Dragsta -18
Warbike Nobz -5
Deff Dreads -10
Flashgitz -6
Killakan -10
Stompa -50
Smashagunz +2
Skorcha Missle -15

Genestealer Cults

Aberrants +3
- Heavy Improvised Weapon +15
Metamorphs -2
- Claw -2
Kelermorph +15
Ridgerunner -15
Leman Russ -15
Rock Drill -2
Missile launcher -5
Mortar +2
Clearance Incinerator -10
Demo charge +5
Hvy Mining Laser -10
hvy Seismic Cannon -5

Custodes:

Allarus -5
SC -10
Allarus SC -10
LR -12
Traj -5
Axe -3
Spear -3
Misericordia -1
Stormshield -5
Vexilla Imperius -30
Caladius -10

'Nids

Biovores 40 (-10)
Exocrine 155 (-15)
Gargoyles 5 (-1)
Haruspex 150 (-20)
Raveners 18 (-5)
Malanthrope 120 (-20)

[Renegade Paladin]

LOL. Guess Ogryns are going to go from not being used to still not being used. Wonder who bullied the design team with them. :smallamused:

[Cheesegear]

LOL. Guess Ogryns are going to go from not being used to still not being used. Wonder who bullied the design team with them. :smallamused:

The ITC.
Which units get used? Which units don't get used. Which is really dumb, considering that the ITC doesn't even play by the rules.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ogryns saw play in the ITC? News to me.

Anyway, my tournament list just got a whole bunch cheaper. Wonder what else I can fit in now. :smallbiggrin:

[Requizen]

Necron changes? No? Probably won't even matter?
Oh well, there's a pretty high chance I'm selling them here soon anyways. Sad times.

I actually like the AdMech flyer, no joke. I keep thinking of just saying "screw it" and picking up Aeronautica since it looks really fun.

[Cheesegear]

Ogryns saw play in the ITC? News to me.

Oh. That's plus 6....Weird. :smallconfused:

[Renegade Paladin]

Necron changes? No? Probably won't even matter?
Oh well, there's a pretty high chance I'm selling them here soon anyways. Sad times.

I actually like the AdMech flyer, no joke. I keep thinking of just saying "screw it" and picking up Aeronautica since it looks really fun.

That's not a comprehensive list. Here you go. (https://www.goonhammer.com/chapter-approved-2019-balance-changes-the-goonhammer-review/)

[Squark]

Idle musing... What would the game be like if you were limited to one battalion + one optional patrol detachment (For the purposes of this discussion, mini-factions like the Inquisition and Sisters of Silence have their most suitable unit(s) made into a troops chocie)? What about a kill-team, I go, you go system?


Oh yeah, I see it now. Nice thinking, guys.

So.... Space Wolves versus Orks - that incredibly well known rivalry that... has... never.... ever.... been mentioned before? :smallconfused:

Helbrecht is gonna be pissed when he finds out that he got bogged down fighting Word Bearer nerds while Wolf-Lord Wolfy McWolfington stepped in and took a scalp that was rightfully his. Now there's a story I'd like to read about; the Master of the Black Templars steps off a ship, immediately back-hands some Space Wolf across his stupid, pointy-toothed beard and asks him to explain just what in the Emperor-damned hells does he think he's playing at? :smalltongue:

Between Ragnar and Krom, the younger Wolf Lords actually have a pretty established rivalry with orks. Still, Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves would have made more sense.

[Drasius]

That's not a comprehensive list. Here you go. (https://www.goonhammer.com/chapter-approved-2019-balance-changes-the-goonhammer-review/)

Nice review, but while I understand that they can't just put a list of changes in, it's still a little annoying that there's no list.

Still, won't be long until CA is out and we can all see for ourselves.

More than a little surprised Ahriman on disk didn't go up seeing as he's an auto-include, but whatever. A 30 block of Tzaangors for DMC shenanigans still feels pretty important despite the fact that there's far more answers these days.

[Renegade Paladin]

Between Ragnar and Krom, the younger Wolf Lords actually have a pretty established rivalry with orks. Still, Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves would have made more sense.

Yeah, a Krom v. Grukk grudge match would totally be a thing. Dragongaze probably wants his Thunderhawk back. :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

Ogryns saw play in the ITC? News to me.

Anyway, my tournament list just got a whole bunch cheaper. Wonder what else I can fit in now. :smallbiggrin:

Bullgryns did and do. Ogryns though, I don't think so. I wonder if someone was complaining about Bullgryns stomping casual games and just used the wrong name. :smallwink:




I actually like the AdMech flyer, no joke. I keep thinking of just saying "screw it" and picking up Aeronautica since it looks really fun.

If X-Wing is a thing in your community, then I encourage you to go with that instead. Gameplay wise, they are very similar, but X-Wing has a lot more options due to its age, and I personally really appreciate how I can go, buy a model, open its case, and use it immediately with no work.

[Turalisj]

X-Wing also has the advantage of being able to open a package and play right away with the model.

[LeSwordfish]

In fairness, that's only an advantage if you don't enjoy building or painting.

[Blackhawk748]

X-Wing also has the advantage of being able to open a package and play right away with the model.

They also look really good for pre-painted models. I've also seen people paint them as well, so you can still do that if you want.

[Cheesegear]

They also look really good for pre-painted models. I've also seen people paint them as well, so you can still do that if you want.

I've done that (because I'm a filthy casual, turns out). When I wanted to differentiate between Kath Scarlet's red-and-white Firespray. Back in the long, long ago, when Scarlet Cowgirl was a viable list (i.e; Two Firesprays and a Lambda Shuttle). Although I think the list was refined down to one Firespray (Scarlet), Lambda, and two Academy Pilots. But by then, I'd quit X-Wing.

[Blackhawk748]

I've done that (because I'm a filthy casual, turns out). When I wanted to differentiate between Kath Scarlet's red-and-white Firespray. Back in the long, long ago, when Scarlet Cowgirl was a viable list (i.e; Two Firesprays and a Lambda Shuttle). Although I think the list was refined down to one Firespray (Scarlet), Lambda, and two Academy Pilots. But by then, I'd quit X-Wing.

I was the crazy nutjob who ran 2 Y-wings with Ion and 4 Z-95s with concusion missiles. Always surprised people when they couldn't move and got hammered.

I should really check out 2.0

[Squark]

I was the crazy nutjob who ran 2 Y-wings with Ion and 4 Z-95s with concusion missiles. Always surprised people when they couldn't move and got hammered.

I should really check out 2.0

X-wing 2.0... is fundamentally the same game, but FFG did reign in a fair number of things. Munitions and turrets in particular got the benefit of having later changes and experiments rolled into the bas mechanics. Dice Modification is still king, though. Converting can be a bit of a pain, though.

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, I'm still waiting on them to re-release the X-wing pilots that were in the old Rebel Transport expansion so I can run my Empire Strikes Back-era Rogue Squadron aces list again.

[Blackhawk748]

This is making me think of how odd the choice of making Aeronautica is. Like, even if its a good game (and it seems fine to me) it's competing with a game that's been out for a few years now and has a pretty big following, not mentioning the WWII game its based off of. I think it would have been smarter to remake Battlefleet Gothic specifically because of the game that just came out and the sequel that is either out or gonna be out shortly (I hadn't kept up)

And Battlefleet Gothic was pretty well received, so it just seems odd to me.

[Forum Explorer]

X-wing 2.0... is fundamentally the same game, but FFG did reign in a fair number of things. Munitions and turrets in particular got the benefit of having later changes and experiments rolled into the bas mechanics. Dice Modification is still king, though. Converting can be a bit of a pain, though.

The conversion kits worked really well for me. But I suppose getting one of those now would be pretty difficult.


Yeah, I'm still waiting on them to re-release the X-wing pilots that were in the old Rebel Transport expansion so I can run my Empire Strikes Back-era Rogue Squadron aces list again.

The rules for them are out at least. They just aren't in 'Hyperspace format' yet, which is stupid considering Worlds ran under Extended (Which is all ships and rules in the game, not just the stuff that has been rereleased or is new) and everything actually worked out really well balance wise.

[Squark]

The conversion kits worked really well for me. But I suppose getting one of those now would be pretty difficult.They're still quite available here in the US, but they the cost of converting was a sticking point for some longtime players. I suppose for most former GW customers the cost of the kits isn't as hard to swallow, but the FFG forums had a lot of... heated discussions. The one-size-fits-some approach also rankled some people. For the older, more established factions, they tried to make it so that 2 conversion kits would get you most of what you needed if you wanted to run a full 200 points of a single ship (So, 4 X-wings or 6 A-wings), but some ships get shafted a bit with the generics- The scum kit gives you 4 z-95 dials, but only cards and tiles enough to run 3 Binayre Pirates, for instance. So this Kath Scarlett focused list (https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum%20and%20Villainy&d=v8ZsZ200Z105XW12WW54WWWW153W79Y159XW94WY159XW94W Y159XW94WY159XW94W&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron&obs=) I threw together when I saw Cheesegear's comment would be short the materials needed for the 4th Binayre Pirate unless you bought a second core set. Granted, with X-wing as big as it is in the Midwestern U.S., it's just a matter of letting a buddy know in advance I need to borrow some cardboard if I wanted to bring this to a tournament, but I know it's a lot harder if you're not in a dense area where the game is very popular.


The smaller kits for the resistance and first order were much better, though, since apart from one glaring exception*, they came with enough stuff to convert 200 points worth of each ship.


*Still kind of peeved they only gave us one Black Squadron Ace in the Resistance kit when flying four of them is perfectly possible.

The rules for them are out at least. They just aren't in 'Hyperspace format' yet, which is stupid considering Worlds ran under Extended (Which is all ships and rules in the game, not just the stuff that has been rereleased or is new) and everything actually worked out really well balance wise.

Not... exactly. Some pilots didn't make the jump to second edition. Hobbie, Tycho, and Wes Janson are probably the most high profile cases, but a fair number of more obscure pilots also failed to make the jump. The Tie Interceptor losing all of its pilots from Imperial Aces was probably the most drastic cut, but the RZ-1 A-wing also suffers from losing its highest initiative pilot.

Oh, and the Firespray and the Havoc became exclusive to Scum, which rankled some old Imperial Players who lost access to Boba Fett.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear, I do actually like X-wing 2.0 a lot. It's just the combination of living on the big Midwestern Tournament Circuit, being friends with a fair number of Nationals-Worlds Players, and browsing the Fantasy Flight Forums a fair bit means I've heard just about every complaint, and I do like to make sure people are informed consumers. If people want to discuss X-wing some more, I think we'd be better off doing it in a dedicated thread, though.

[Renegade Paladin]

The rules for them are out at least. They just aren't in 'Hyperspace format' yet, which is stupid considering Worlds ran under Extended (Which is all ships and rules in the game, not just the stuff that has been rereleased or is new) and everything actually worked out really well balance wise.

The rules for Janson, Hobbie, and Tarn Mison are out? Since when? They aren't listed among the pilots for the X-wing on the wiki (https://xwing-miniatures-second-edition.fandom.com/wiki/T-65_X-Wing).

Anyway, I really stepped in it. There's a new wargaming convention starting in Indianapolis and I wound up volunteering myself to run a 40k Learn to Play slot after noticing that there wasn't one (when there were demos for basically every other game under the sun). :smalleek:

[Squark]

The rules for Janson, Hobbie, and Tarn Mison are out? Since when? They aren't listed among the pilots for the X-wing on the wiki (https://xwing-miniatures-second-edition.fandom.com/wiki/T-65_X-Wing). They're not. The community is hoping they'll make it into a future Hotshots and Aces-like pack (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing-second-edition/products/hotshots-and-aces-reinforcements-pack/), but there's no word of them coming any time soon.

[LeSwordfish]

I like how beloved star wars characters "Hobbie" "Janson" and "Tarn Mison" are not, in fact, among the More Obscure group.

[Forum Explorer]

Not... exactly. Some pilots didn't make the jump to second edition. Hobbie, Tycho, and Wes Janson are probably the most high profile cases, but a fair number of more obscure pilots also failed to make the jump. The Tie Interceptor losing all of its pilots from Imperial Aces was probably the most drastic cut, but the RZ-1 A-wing also suffers from losing its highest initiative pilot.

Oh, and the Firespray and the Havoc became exclusive to Scum, which rankled some old Imperial Players who lost access to Boba Fett.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear, I do actually like X-wing 2.0 a lot. It's just the combination of living on the big Midwestern Tournament Circuit, being friends with a fair number of Nationals-Worlds Players, and browsing the Fantasy Flight Forums a fair bit means I've heard just about every complaint, and I do like to make sure people are informed consumers. If people want to discuss X-wing some more, I think we'd be better off doing it in a dedicated thread, though.

Huh, I wasn't aware that they missed some. Particularly considering there's something like 3-5 unique pilots for every kind of ship. Or close to that anyways.

Firespray becoming Scum only is pure legit. Scum just wasn't a faction when Boba was first released, that's all. Mind you, one of the better balance changes was separating Resistance and Rebels. Because Poe and Wedge together were insane.

I wouldn't bother with a new thread, I think this conversation is about tapped out.


Back to Warhammer, over on Goonhammer they actually went over tournament results for a bunch of factions. The whole thing can be found here. (https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-analysis-alliance-open-element-grand-slam/)

Of particular note though was the two Ork players they covered. The first Ork Player was running something pretty standard. 3 Big Meks with Shockk Attack Guns, Triple Battalions fueled by gretchin, and twenty Meganobs being teleported via Da Jump. The other player though was running an army of buggies. He had triple Dragsters, and 5 Scrapjets. And the buggies managed to go 5-1.

[Renegade Paladin]

I like how beloved star wars characters "Hobbie" "Janson" and "Tarn Mison" are not, in fact, among the More Obscure group.

Well, Tarn kind of is. I only included him to begin with because the format was 150 point All Aces, the big four weren't filling the points limit, and he was the only other movie-era Rogue Squadron pilot in print. :smalltongue:

[Squark]

Warhammer Legends is up (https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/)

EDIT: Hmm... Doesn't look like prices have changed from the index, apart from the Wolf Lord on Bike who managed to snag the Biker Captain's cost decreases.

[9mm]

I find it funny that the Griffon Heavy Mortar carrier is so old GW didn't even legend it.

[LansXero]

Is a banshee mask an actual piece of modellable wargear that one day existed? Or is this just GW being *******s 'cause they felt like it? I mean, I could maybe see a Reaper Launcher being a tad too much for an Autarch to have (not really) but the Mask doesnt even fit their 'we're not making these models anymore' reasoning.

[Squark]

Is a banshee mask an actual piece of modellable wargear that one day existed? Or is this just GW being *******s 'cause they felt like it? I mean, I could maybe see a Reaper Launcher being a tad too much for an Autarch to have (not really) but the Mask doesnt even fit their 'we're not making these models anymore' reasoning.

In the same way Wolf Priests on Thunderwolves existed; You took the body of one model and combined it with parts from another. Most of the wargear being lost only ever existed as conversions/kitbashes, which GW doesn't want to include in the codexes anymore. And, I mean, I can kind of unerstand not wanting to have to say to a brand new customer asking where they can get an Autarch with a banshee mask/Techmarine on a bike/Twin Autocannon Dreadnaught, "Okay, you need to buy this kit, and that kit, and that kit, and then cut them all up just to make one model"

I'd much prefer if we'd gotten multipose kits for various HQs like the Space Marine commander box, but sadly, that's not the path GW has gone down.

[Rizhail]

Is a banshee mask an actual piece of modellable wargear that one day existed? Or is this just GW being *******s 'cause they felt like it? I mean, I could maybe see a Reaper Launcher being a tad too much for an Autarch to have (not really) but the Mask doesnt even fit their 'we're not making these models anymore' reasoning.

It was actually modeled on one of the old sculpts of the Autarch with hawk wings. Folks would also just convert their own masked autarchs by putting banshee heads on other Eldar torsos (quite a bit more annoying since they were all metal or finecast, though).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-85NCYrm1SOA/UHMw6feufWI/AAAAAAAAAjw/8RiXTCldLC8/s1600/Eldar+Autarch.jpg

I’m still really annoyed by GWs weird stance of “if the option isn’t in that specific kit, it cannot be taken” (which they blatantly ignore on occasion; hell, I think there’s still a grey knight dread knight variant that literally does not have a model and they just tell you to convert one, so their rules aren’t even consistent). I was honestly pretty annoyed when the change in editions and the inclusion of that policy invalidated several of my dark Eldar HQs from 5th/6th edition (e.g. succubus with power spear, archons with venom blades).

On a related note, I’m curious how tournaments will handle the Legends stuff. On the one hand, I fully expect them to nix any data sheets from Legends since there will not be any balance changes to those things, but I’m curious if we’ll see allowances for wargear options, since the data sheets and wargear options sections are pretty well delineated. Something like “Datasheets from Legends are not allowed. Wargear options form Legends are allowed, however any wargear selected must have rules/points entries in the army’s codex”.

[Squark]

I’m still really annoyed by GWs weird stance of “if the option isn’t in that specific kit, it cannot be taken” (which they blatantly ignore on occasion; hell, I think there’s still a grey knight dread knight variant that literally does not have a model and they just tell you to convert one, so their rules aren’t even consistent).

Bike Captains, certain force weapon/armor combinations for librarians, Captains and Librarians with Jump packs... Yeah, GW is still pretty inconsistent about this.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wait, Tigurius got the Legends treatment? Huh. :smallconfused:

[Blackhawk748]

In the same way Wolf Priests on Thunderwolves existed; You took the body of one model and combined it with parts from another. Most of the wargear being lost only ever existed as conversions/kitbashes, which GW doesn't want to include in the codexes anymore. And, I mean, I can kind of unerstand not wanting to have to say to a brand new customer asking where they can get an Autarch with a banshee mask/Techmarine on a bike/Twin Autocannon Dreadnaught, "Okay, you need to buy this kit, and that kit, and that kit, and then cut them all up just to make one model"

I'd much prefer if we'd gotten multipose kits for various HQs like the Space Marine commander box, but sadly, that's not the path GW has gone down.

The particular odd child here is the Grand Master in a Dreadknight. Who is a conversion that GW tells you how to do, so I honestly wonder what the criteria here was.


Wait, Tigurius got the Legends treatment? Huh. :smallconfused:

Gotta use Primaris Tiggy apparently.

[Cheesegear]

On a related note, I’m curious how tournaments will handle the Legends stuff. On the one hand

Exactly the way GW says?


Warhammer Legends will not form part of our ongoing balance
review for the wider Warhammer 40,000 game – and we don’t
recommend Legends units for competitive tournaments. This
means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee
that everything they’re gaming with is easily available to
everyone and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and
playtesting process.

Warhammer Legends units are not balanced - for better or worse - will never be balanced, and as of now we're forgetting that they're existing, so if there's something really, really good (e.g; Kustom Force Field Mek, Iron Hands' Techmarine on Bike), it's going to be really, really good forever... Or, it's going to suck forever. See ya.

[tyckspoon]

"...has been subject to the same rigorous balance and
playtesting process."

Somebody got paid to write that with a straight face.

[Renegade Paladin]

Somebody got paid to write that with a straight face.

Which is why I'm not too fussed about it. I'm giving serious consideration to running legacy events just to not randomly invalidate people's hobby.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Hey all,

Long-time lurker but I've appreciated reading your collected wisdom over the past few months. I'm getting back into 8th after a hiatus during University. My local gaming group is very competitive and I wouldn't mind a bit of assistance. My main army is Chaos Space Marines and they seem to be in a pretty good place at the moment, but I've been thinking of splashing in Chaos Knights. What I'm trying to figure out is the right ratio of screens to heavy hitters. Cultists don't seem to be doing their job and my Forgefiend and Defiler tend to get blown out within the first two turns, leaving me without a lot of firepower. I've been running small squads of Chaos Marines for objective camping but it seems like a bit of a waste of points.

Part of it might just be me playing ITC, too. How does maelstrom compare? I'm planning on trying it out next week with a buddy.

My most recent list that I ran vs Space Wolves, with very poor results:


11 CP

Battalion - Red Corsairs
Host Raptorial
Field Commander
Gift of Chaos

Chaos Lord - Chainsword, Combi-Melta, Slaanesh [Maelstrom's Bite]
Master of Possession - Force Stave, Slaanesh
-Infernal Power
-Sacrifice
Sorcerer with Jump Pack - Force Sword, Plasma Pistol
-Prescience
-Warptime
WT Tip of the Claw

10 x CSM w/ 2 Reaper Chain Cannon, Champion with Plasma pistol, Power fist
5 x CSM w/ chainsword, 1 flamer, champion with chainsword and combi-flamer
5 x CSM w/ chainsword, 1 flamer, champion with chainsword and combi-flamer

10 x Warp Talons

Spearhead Detachment - Red Corsairs
Lord Discordant (W) - Baleflamer, Unholy Fortitude, Intoxicating Elixer
Lord Discordant - Baleflamer

Greater Possessed
Greater Possessed

Defiler - Havoc Launcher, Reaper Autocannon
Forgefiend - Ectoplasma cannon, Autocannon
Venomcrawler

Heldrake - Baleflamer


Re: Warhammer Legends, I'm disappointed as I got into the game from the hobby first. My favorite part was converting HQs to make them distinct - no other Chaos Lord on a Bike will look quite like mine. It seems a shame that we're heading towards mono-posed kits that are not only difficult to convert but actually disallow it. Ah well. I've got at least one good buddy I know who'd be fine for casual games.

[Avaris]

One surprising thing about Legends, and I think counter to how it was originally announced, is that there are some models in there that are still available for sale on the GW website, specifically the Legion of the Dammed. I was hoping to see official updated rules for them in a WD, but apparently not. Quite tempted to pick some up though: they’ll never be competitive, but I’ve always liked the models and concept and the idea of deep striking a couple of multi meltas attached to Marines with 3++ saves amuses me.

[Cheesegear]

Part of it might just be me playing ITC, too. How does maelstrom compare? I'm planning on trying it out next week with a buddy.

I wish I could help you with Chaos Marines. But I don't know a lot about them, and I know even less with the 8.2 Codex.

At high levels of play, the ITC mostly focuses on sitting on one or two Objectives for the entire game, and doing pure damage to your opponent. Yes, there are other ways to score points. But, by far the easiest way to score points, is Kill Points, and doing massive damage to your opponents units for easy points.

For the most part, the best ITC lists tend not to move around a lot, because there is no benefit to moving once you control two Objectives, and then just killing your opponent. Just make sure you stay on the two Objectives (the same Objectives every turn, if possible), and you'll win your games. The rest is down to mathhammer, and who scores kill points the fastest. This is a version of the game where 'the most competitive' lists can be pretty easily figured out if you know how an Excel spreadsheet works. You could say, that it's directly made for tournament play.

'Can you make a list, that has bigger numbers than your opponent's list?', and then roll dice. ITC is good because it's what most players - and especially new ones - naturally want to do when they play against your opponent; 'Let's just kill each other,' and then build a list that does exactly that. In my opinion, because of how the win conditions, are, it is the epitome of the answer to "How much randomness of the game can you take out, to make it unFun?" ITC. ITC is how you make it so fixed, that you can make it unFun, mostly 'cause you can often tell who wins games based on army lists and/or who goes first.

Maelstrom, on the other hand, wants you to be holding at least three Objectives at all times - and half of the time, not the ones you currently have. Maelstrom also includes Kill Point Objectives, but not so many that they become the main focus of the game. Maelstrom also includes esoteric cards like 'Complete a Charge', which has nothing to do with Objectives, or Kill Points, but, if you don't have a unit that can declare and succeed a Charge, you don't get the VP.

For this reason, Maelstrom greatly favours 'Lists that can do everything'. Killing your opponent is part of the game, but not all of the game. Which means that math-hammer, matters less, and rather than focus on specific unit strength (i.e; Three Repulsors on a Skyshield), Maelstrom is based around overall army strength, and leans towards generalist units (or, perhaps more specifically, 'Shooty units that can also Melee when called upon to do so'), rather than shooty units in-or-behind a Ruin.

Maelstrom is good, because the Objectives you draw, and on what turn, is basically random (however, it's important to know that before the game begins, you already know every card in the deck, and have built your army list accordingly, right?). Which means that not only do your win conditions change every game, they change every turn. Maelstrom focuses primarily on armies that are adaptable, and focuses on generals willing to take risks to score VPs, often, instead of scoring another, different VP. And perhaps most importantly, movement and board control (i.e; Objectives).

Maelstrom is good because it requires you to think about what you're doing, based on the cards you draw. You don't get to go in to every game with the same game plan - and neither does your opponent, and you know that. Maelstrom is also bad because some entire Factions (e.g; T'au, a rather popular Faction) can't adapt to the cards, because their entire Codex is built around a single schtick - castle up and shoot.
Maelstrom is bad, 'cause people are bad misunderstand how the deck works, and often the Objectives of the game often feel counter-intuitive if you draw them on the wrong turn, which causes nerdrage.

Maelstrom is a 'fixed randomness', very similar to counting cards (in fact, it's exactly like counting cards). Before the game starts, you already know each and every card in your/the deck. With each draw, randomness diminishes, and you plan around cards you have drawn, and even around cards that you haven't drawn yet - but you know they're coming.

TL;DR:
In ITC, T'au are competitive. In Maelstrom, they're not.

[Forum Explorer]

Somebody got paid to write that with a straight face.

The best part about writing things is you can be crackling like a maniac and nobody can see you do it.


To simply what Cheesegear was saying about Maelstrom, it's a game where you have to do many random things. Most of those are hold objectives, but there is still plenty of others. The best way to do well in Maelstrom is to be able to do as many of those things as possible, that way statistically speaking, you'll be able to score more points. This typically means being very mobile.

That being said, sometimes you get screwed by the cards no matter how well your army is designed. And sometimes you get objectives that your army simply can't do.

Thankfully, more recent Maelstrom missions do allow you to edit your deck of cards to an extent, allowing you to remove the objectives that your army just can't do at all.

[Cheesegear]

Thankfully, more recent Maelstrom missions do allow you to edit your deck of cards to an extent, allowing you to remove the objectives that your army just can't do at all.

By 'edit your deck', you mean "Remove SebObX 1-6, Remove DefOb 1-6, and then also six more.", and then you just try and table your opponent, exactly like you would do in the ITC. :smallwink:

[Forum Explorer]

By 'edit your deck', you mean "Remove SebObX 1-6, Remove DefOb 1-6, and then also six more.", and then you just try and table your opponent, exactly like you would do in the ITC. :smallwink:

Don't you only get to remove 6 objectives? :smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

Don't you only get to remove 6 objectives? :smallconfused:

Oh. Yeah. Chapter Approved '18 is the good version.
There's another version in White Dwarf, which lets you remove 18 cards (i.e; All the Objectives), which will fairly reasonably become the new format in CA'19. I hope it doesn't. But given the popularity of the ITC, and the 'choose how you win' format, I will not be surprised if/when it is.

[Forum Explorer]

Oh. Yeah. Chapter Approved '18 is the good version.
There's another version in White Dwarf, which lets you remove 18 cards (i.e; All the Objectives), which will fairly reasonably become the new format in CA'19. I hope it doesn't. But given the popularity of the ITC, and the 'choose how you win' format, I will not be surprised if/when it is.

I never got a chance to try that version. Doesn't that only leave you with 12 objectives? And from what I remember, you draw a hand of 5, and put 3 as active. That seems to make it pretty likely that you'll end up completing all 12 objectives pretty much every game.

I still feel like the ITC is riding its popularity from 7th, where the game was legitimately broken, and the ITC actually took important steps to balance things out, while providing better missions then the ones in the rulebook. These days the ITC doesn't actually do any of that. I mean, I'll concede that the missions are better than the ones in the rulebook but I feel like most of the chapter approved missions outclass the ITC ones.

[Cheesegear]

I never got a chance to try that version. Doesn't that only leave you with 12 objectives? And from what I remember, you draw a hand of 5, and put 3 as active. That seems to make it pretty likely that you'll end up completing all 12 objectives pretty much every game.

...Yeah, that's why it sucks. I don't know why people like it. :smallyuk:


These days the ITC doesn't actually do any of that.

Well, allegedly, their tournament data is what GW uses to balance units. Which, if true, is asinine, because the ITC doesn't play by GW's rules (e.g; Scions are good already, whose ****ing idea is 7 Points!? Oh wait. You don't need Scions in an ITC list, so no-one who plays Guard, has Scions, better make 'em good...WTF!?)
...Then again, Ogryns - not Bullgyns - are going up 6 Points, too. So I don't even know what GW is doing.


I mean, I'll concede that the missions are better than the ones in the rulebook but I feel like most of the chapter approved missions outclass the ITC ones.

Very much so.

Another fun cycle:

Ynnari Dark Reapers too stronk, plz nerf.
*Nerfs Dark Reapers*
*Nerfs Ynnari*
Dark Reapers suck now. Nobody buy.
*Buffs Dark Reapers*
...Since Guilliman sucks, can Razorbacks and Stormravens become unNerfed, too?
"...No. They're old!Marines and we don't want you using them anymore."

[Forum Explorer]

...Yeah, that's why it sucks. I don't know why people like it. :smallyuk:



Well, allegedly, their tournament data is what GW uses to balance units. Which, if true, is asinine, because the ITC doesn't play by GW's rules (e.g; Scions are good already, whose ****ing idea is 7 Points!? Oh wait. You don't need Scions in an ITC list, so no-one who plays Guard, has Scions, better make 'em good...WTF!?)
...Then again, Ogryns - not Bullgyns - are going up 6 Points, too. So I don't even know what GW is doing.



Very much so.

Another fun cycle:

Ynnari Dark Reapers too stronk, plz nerf.
*Nerfs Dark Reapers*
*Nerfs Ynnari*
Dark Reapers suck now. Nobody buy.
*Buffs Dark Reapers*
...Since Guilliman sucks, can Razorbacks and Stormravens become unNerfed, too?
"...No. They're old!Marines and we don't want you using them anymore."

I like the idea of drawing 5 objectives and having 3 active though. I think that would be fun with a total of 24 objectives. (There's usually close to 6 objectives that I never want. Namely anything that deals with morale, Domination, and defending the objectives my opponent has his entire army on top of. Securing can be done. But defending something in your opponent's deployment zone is so insanely hard to do.)

They certainly take tournament results into consideration, but I think they also go by feedback from the community (IE people writing in and complaining) which leads to the weird nerfs/buffs like that.

[Cheesegear]

Making a Battle Company

NB. This is based on the Chapter Organisation found in Imperial Fists, not in the core Codex.

x6 Battleline
Intercessors: Bolt Rifles and Stalkers. Both are very good for what they do. The majority of the 8th Ed. Battle Company should be represented by these dudes.

Tacticals: Grav-Cannon Heavy Bolter and Combi-Plasma? Still very expensive for 1-wound models, whose cheapness is cancelled out by the fact that you have to pick up Heavy Bolters to make them worth anything? Skip.

Infiltrators: I play in Maelstrom. One unit is basically required. I'd go for two units of 5 for greater board control. But since I already know the HQ I'm going to pick, that's not important.

The biggest problem is lack of Heavy weapons. Yeah, sure. Fists' Stalker Bolt Rifles are Heavy and Bolt weapons, and that's...Something. If I was Iron Hands, it'd be all Stalkers, all the time. But, I'm not, so it's not.

x2 Close Support
Reivers: ...No.

Incursors: Not being Battleline, really hurts this unit when it comes to making a Battle Company. It's just not going to fit into twin Battalions or a Brigade. So...Next. I love Incursors for a Turn 1 stall tactic, but...Yeah. They're just not gonna fit.

Inceptors: I want to include them so bad. Unfortunately, they just don't bring what I'm not already bringing. I wish I had Scouts in my Troops slot. :smallsigh:

Assault Squad: ...No.

Centurion Assault Squads: ...God damn these guys are so good. Strong really strong horde-clearing power, combined with dedicated Vehicle smashing, all on a tough, durable unit, that only costs ~50 Points a model. Unfortunately, I just can't justify them, 'cause they're just so slow, and I don't think I can keep them alive for that long.

Biker Squads: Cheap source of Meltaguns? Yes. Also carries Twin Boltguns each? ...Yes. Very solid unit. I'm also not White Scars, I'm Imperial Fists. So I treat them like a T5 unit that carries Storm Bolters...Not like a Melee unit that can't climb stairs.

Attack Bikes: ...No.

Land Speeders: ...It's times like these I wish I played Iron Hands or Ultramarines. Unfortunately...I don't. I have to play...*vomit* a fair Chapter of Space Marines.

x2 Fire Support
Hellblasters: I'd really like to carry a unit of Heavies. Unfortunately, that's a lot of points...So...Pass. For now. I think.

Eliminators: I don't play in an ITC meta where seeing through walls is mandatory. I'm also carting a bunch of Stalker Rifles, and we already know the HQ I'm running. I really need Heavy weapons at this point.

Aggressors: ...In an army that's running six Troops as it is, and all Boltguns, at that, Aggressors give me what I don't need.

Suppressors: ...What am I? Ultramarines or Iron Hands?

Devastators: There it is. Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Fat Baby. 150 Points. Will really like to upgrade to x4 Lascannons. We'll see how the points shake out.

Centurion Devastators: I'd love to. But no. Not this time.

Characters
Captain: ...Tor Garadon, is out. Obviously looking at the standard Battle Company, it's extremely shooty. So, looks like we're taking the Phobos Captain for a cool 99 Points.
Lieutenant: Primaris, for preference. But, we're Imperial Fists, so a small!Lieutenant with a Storm Bolter is good enough for me.
Company Ancient: Primaris, for preference.
Company Champion: ...Eew. Really? Do I have to?
Company Veterans: ...*Vomit*

Dreadnoughts
Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts carry Heavy weapons that I desperately need. Unfortunately, Venerable Dreads cost a few extra points that I really don't want to spend. A Contemptor Dreadnought is one of the best units Imperial Fists can field...But, once again, I don't think I have the points, and a single Assault Cannon just isn't that great. Redemptors I'm not running, 'cause once again, I'm not Iron Hands. Vicky Warsuits I'd strongly like to run, and once again, we'll see what we're doing.

Let's apply my knowledge...

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armour; Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo Cloak - 99 Points
Lieutenant; Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 62 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points

Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points
Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points

Imperial Fists, Battalion
HQ 1; ???
HQ 2; ???

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 110 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points

Total: 1220 Points

...Huh? Is that all. Well, I'm missing all those extra Veteran models, and I still need two extra HQs. Librarian and Chaplain, obviously.

Librarian; Force Stave, Tectonic Purge - 88 Points
Chaplain; Recitation of Focus - 72 Points

Primaris Ancient - 69 Points
Company Champion; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Combat Shield - 51 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Storm Bolters & Chainswords - 80 Points

Total: 1580 Points

...Take out those dumb Veterans and it's exactly 1500 Points...That's...Something. Now to add Dreadnoughts. Now that I'm including Vehicles in my list, might as well add a Techmarine, right?

Techmarine; Boltgun & Chainsword - 45 Points

Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 130 Points
Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 130 Points

Total: 1885 Points

Well, make 'em both Venerable for +40 Points. Let's switch the Techmarine, for a full-on Thunderfire Cannon for...uhh...'Support Elements', for +47 Points. Still 28 Points to go. Huh. Remember, the Chaplain's Litany, if it goes off, gives +1 to hit, so what's wrong with upping one of the Devastators to Hellblasters (+25) that can't explode?

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armour; Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo Cloak - 99 Points
Lieutenant; Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 62 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points

Primaris Ancient - 69 Points
Company Champion; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Combat Shield - 51 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Storm Bolters & Chainswords - 80 Points

Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points
Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Librarian; Force Stave, Tectonic Purge - 88 Points
Chaplain; Recitation of Focus - 72 Points

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 110 Points

Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 150 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 150 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 175 Points
Thunderfire Cannon; Flamer, Plasma Cutter - 92 Points

Total: 1997 Points | 13 CPs

...Huh. That actually looks better than I originally thought it would. Maybe switch the Dreads to Contemptors? Playtest time, I guess. I think I actually have to switch them to Vicky Warsuits for some early board control?

[LansXero]

...Yeah, that's why it sucks. I don't know why people like it. :smallyuk:

Having actually ran tournaments with it, people love being able to adapt their army to their objectives and knowing that most of what they'll draw they can accomplish. I look forward to it becoming more widely accepted.


Well, allegedly, their tournament data is what GW uses to balance units. Which, if true, is asinine, because the ITC doesn't play by GW's rules (e.g; Scions are good already, whose ****ing idea is 7 Points!? Oh wait. You don't need Scions in an ITC list, so no-one who plays Guard, has Scions, better make 'em good...WTF!?)
...Then again, Ogryns - not Bullgyns - are going up 6 Points, too. So I don't even know what GW is doing.

Very much so.

Another fun cycle:

Ynnari Dark Reapers too stronk, plz nerf.
*Nerfs Dark Reapers*
*Nerfs Ynnari*
Dark Reapers suck now. Nobody buy.
*Buffs Dark Reapers*
...Since Guilliman sucks, can Razorbacks and Stormravens become unNerfed, too?
"...No. They're old!Marines and we don't want you using them anymore."

Scions are to make the Guardsman increase more palatable. Dark Reapers have been overcosted for a while, but only slightly so and are also to shore up the Crimson Hunter increase.

[Cheesegear]

Having actually ran tournaments with it, people love being able to adapt their army to their objectives

You mean adapt their Objectives to their army.
Like I said, remove SecOb1-6, DefOb1-6, and six more (the six you would, normally). Then just table.


Scions are to make the Guardsman increase more palatable.

To whom?
The non-Guard players who are happy Infantry went to 5 Points, or the non-Guard players who are angry that Scions dropped to 7?

Or was it to appease Guard players who are already A-Tier, to keep being A-Tier...As long they buy new models.
...Haha, just kidding, of course it is.


Dark Reapers have been overcosted for a while

Since Ynnari was nerfed. Whilst Ynnari was...As it was, Dark Reapers were accurately costed. Unfortunately, this happened to hurt players who didn't run Ynnari, in the same way that Razorbacks and Stormravens without Guilliman, are still nerfed, 'cause **** you, that's why. Now, with Guilliman nerfed, the nerf to Stormravens and Razorbacks makes no sense, and yet, remained in the Codex v2 because reasons?

[LansXero]

You mean adapt their Objectives to their army.
Like I said, remove SecOb1-6, DefOb1-6, and six more (the six you would, normally). Then just table.

Yeah, 'cause its so trivial to table people. Beating them so bad they cant score ****, sure, but then if they pull a 3 on 1d3 objectives you lose despite having massacred the other and that just sucks. We've seen Daemons players get mileage out of score / capture based decks, due to mobility and plaguebearers / nurglings lasting more than they should; jetbikes can also take objectives from basically anywhere and moving custodes out of a point they want is extremely hard.

Its ok if you haven't tried it, its less ITC and closer to normal maelstrom, and the mini-game of knowing what to put down, what to reshuffle back into the deck, etc. is very engaging, for us at least. Regular maelstrom, since what you'd draw was a crapshoot anyways, did become 'Ill just table the **** out of you instead', because people here hate randumb stuff and taking 'just in case' stuff they wouldnt normally take. I keep wondering just how much our TCG background warps how we play 40k.


Or was it to appease Guard players who are already A-Tier, to keep being A-Tier...As long they buy new models.
...Haha, just kidding, of course it is.


See, you big casual fellow, being A-Tier means you aint 'pre-nerf Ynnari' S-Tier, so there is plenty of room to complain. While some people are happy and excited about Sisters being 'High B-Tier', for some people anything that isnt an S-Tier contender doesnt exist, and they have a right to their fun as much as anyone else. Wish GW was better at balance of course.



Since Ynnari was nerfed. Whilst Ynnari was...As it was, Dark Reapers were accurately costed. Unfortunately, this happened to hurt players who didn't run Ynnari, in the same way that Razorbacks and Stormravens without Guilliman, are still nerfed, 'cause **** you, that's why. Now, with Guilliman nerfed, the nerf to Stormravens and Razorbacks makes no sense, and yet, remained in the Codex v2 because reasons?

They did, briefly, when Bolter Discipline included them, and then it didnt anymore and then the faction became S-Tier so forget about any buffs coming its way.

[Cheesegear]

Its ok if you haven't tried it, its less ITC and closer to normal maelstrom...

No. I did try it, multiple times, and it felt exactly like ITC. I continuously watch my opponents pull out Objective-based...uhh...Objectives. Then on Turn 1, throw down 3 Kill Point objectives, just like they would in ITC, then pick up 2d3+1 VPs on Turn 1, and they haven't left their DZ. This is a common occurance. Exactly the same as ITC, 'Choose how you win'. It's not that you can't win by playing more Objective-based Objectives...It's just...Why would you bother, when you can run 3 Repulsors on a Skyshield, with Thunderfire Cannon support, and try and kill 3+ enemy units, in the Shooting phase, for 2d3? Kill Points are Just Easier, that's why the ITC revolves around the Secondaries that it does, and WD!Maelstrom isn't any different.

The only Objective Objectives worth keeping in the deck, are non-specified ones, like Supremecy, where any three will do. But, importantly, Supremecy is for D3, too, and D3 Objectives are always worth keeping, especially if they're non-specific (e.g; Destroy any 3 enemy units you want for D3, or, destroy a single Vehicle, for 1).

It's not that you can't win games playing with Necrons; It's why would you even try, when you could play almost anything else, instead?

As Forum Explorer pointed out, the 5 cards you draw on Turn 1, represent a (almost) whole third of your deck, chances are good you can get two - even three - 'good Objectives' in your opening hand. Because, y'know...You've already pulled everything you definitely don't want out the deck. So, using your brain, you know that the only cards left in your deck are all good ones, right? It's not like you need a specific amount of mana to hit curve or your hand is garbage.

Draw 5 cards every turn, where every card is a 0-cost !Lightning Bolt, but you can only play three !Lightning Bolts per turn. "I win in two and half turns, unless you counter."
That's what WD!Maelstrom has been like, for me.
Yeah. Handshake on Turn 3? Sounds about right. That analogy actually works.


and the mini-game of knowing what to put down, what to reshuffle back into the deck, etc. is very engaging, for us at least.

Very engaging? Surely that's a generous overstatement.

[LansXero]

No. I did try it, multiple times, and it felt exactly like ITC. I continuously watch my opponents pull out Objective-based...uhh...Objectives. Then on Turn 1, throw down 3 Kill Point objectives, just like they would in ITC, then pick up 2d3+1 VPs on Turn 1, and they haven't left their DZ. This is a common occurance. Exactly the same as ITC, 'Choose how you win'. It's not that you can't win by playing more Objective-based Objectives...It's just...Why would you bother, when you can run 3 Repulsors on a Skyshield, with Thunderfire Cannon support, and try and kill 3+ enemy units, in the Shooting phase, for 2d3? Kill Points are Just Easier, that's why the ITC revolves around the Secondaries that it does, and WD!Maelstrom isn't any different.

The only Objective Objectives worth keeping in the deck, are non-specified ones, like Supremecy, where any three will do. But, importantly, Supremecy is for D3, too, and D3 Objectives are always worth keeping, especially if they're non-specific (e.g; Destroy any 3 enemy units you want for D3, or, destroy a single Vehicle, for 1).

It's not that you can't win games playing with Necrons; It's why would you even try, when you could play almost anything else, instead?

As Forum Explorer pointed out, the 5 cards you draw on Turn 1, represent a (almost) whole third of your deck, chances are good you can get two - even three - 'good Objectives' in your opening hand. Because, y'know...You've already pulled everything you definitely don't want out the deck. So, using your brain, you know that the only cards left in your deck are all good ones, right? It's not like you need a specific amount of mana to hit curve or your hand is garbage.

Draw 5 cards every turn, where every card is a 0-cost !Lightning Bolt, but you can only play three !Lightning Bolts per turn. "I win in two and half turns, unless you counter."
That's what WD!Maelstrom has been like, for me.
Yeah. Handshake on Turn 3? Sounds about right. That analogy actually works.

Very engaging? Surely that's a generous overstatement.

Well, either your terrain is trash, your TO isnt doing his job of placing objectives in non-retarded areas or I dont know what to tell you. I can count on one hand the times I've given out first blood this year, and it wouldnt even take all the hand. "Kill points are easy" only works if one of the other side is deploying dumbly into firing lines. If it costs your opponent having to become exposed then thats also a price to be paid; I think I've had an easier time when I've gone second mostly because overextending is real and trying super hard to fish for kill points means you eat the counter-punch like a sucker.

Then its probably because Craftworlds is amazing and Phantasm is a great stratagem :D.

Granted, most of our tournaments are Doubles, so maybe a lot of what Im experiencing comes from there.

[Forum Explorer]

Well, either your terrain is trash, your TO isnt doing his job of placing objectives in non-retarded areas or I dont know what to tell you. I can count on one hand the times I've given out first blood this year, and it wouldnt even take all the hand. "Kill points are easy" only works if one of the other side is deploying dumbly into firing lines. If it costs your opponent having to become exposed then thats also a price to be paid; I think I've had an easier time when I've gone second mostly because overextending is real and trying super hard to fish for kill points means you eat the counter-punch like a sucker.

Then its probably because Craftworlds is amazing and Phantasm is a great stratagem :D.

Granted, most of our tournaments are Doubles, so maybe a lot of what Im experiencing comes from there.

I was going to say, you play Eldar flyers where you can get a -3 on pretty much whatever you want. Most armies, frig, most other Eldar armies aren't nearly as durable.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Thanks for the wisdom, all. I'm looking forward to trying Maelstrom next Wednesday against a Tau friend. I'll let folks know how it shakes out.

This is what I'm planning on bringing, emphasis on mobility:


Battalion - Black Legion
Abaddon - 240 (W)
Daemon Prince with Wings; Slaanesh, Delightful Agonies, Intoxicating Elixir, Double-Talons, Warp Bolter - 183

20 x Cultists; Autogun, 2x Heavy Stubber - 104
10 x Cultists; Close Combat, Flamer - 56
10 x Cultists; Close combat, Flamer - 56

8 x Noise Marines; Blastmaster, Sonic Blaster x 6, Combi-plasma, Doom Siren - 183

3 x Bikers; Chainswords, Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer - 178

3 x Bikers; Chainswords, Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer - 178

1000 Pts, 10 CP


I've always loved bikes. Couldn't tell you why.

[LansXero]

I was going to say, you play Eldar flyers where you can get a -3 on pretty much whatever you want. Most armies, frig, most other Eldar armies aren't nearly as durable.

'Eldar Flyers' would be the 9-planes netlist. I play 'just 3' with a bunch of infantry :v. But for example Knights, Custodes, IG, etc. arent that easy to shoot to nothing Turn 1. Sure, there'll be a crater where guardsmen used to be, but there's so many of them it hardly counts.


This is what I'm planning on bringing, emphasis on mobility:

That seems solid enough at the points level, Noise marines can shoot twice right? That seems really nasty. Not so sure about the bikers, its one of those units I've always seen underperform

[JNAProductions]

'Eldar Flyers' would be the 9-planes netlist. I play 'just 3' with a bunch of infantry :v. But for example Knights, Custodes, IG, etc. arent that easy to shoot to nothing Turn 1. Sure, there'll be a crater where guardsmen used to be, but there's so many of them it hardly counts.

That seems solid enough at the points level, Noise marines can shoot twice right? That seems really nasty. Not so sure about the bikers, its one of those units I've always seen underperform

Except when your goal is "Kill 3+ Enemy Units" those Guardsmen count.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

That seems solid enough at the points level, Noise marines can shoot twice right? That seems really nasty. Not so sure about the bikers, its one of those units I've always seen underperform

Thanks! I was very happy to find out that the sonic weapons sprue fits the new chaos space marine bodies. I have had mixed results with bikes. Obviously they're lovely mobile. With Delightful Agonies they have a bit more staying power or hug terrain. When loaded with meltas/combi-meltas or plasma/combi-plasma they've been great alpha strike to remove heavy infantry or make a dent in tanks - but that one long-deployment map is really killer. They don't always last from one turn to another.

This is the first time I've run as flamers. I really like the idea of them as potential chaff clearing. With bolter discipline doubling their shots or the Black Legion trait letting them advance and shoot their combi-bolters there's a lot of potential for damage. But again, it's an issue of keeping them around past turn two or three. We'll see how they do!

I used to run them with an Icon of Nurgle back when it gave them toughness 6. But they only had one wound back then, so...

[Drasius]

Yeah, 'cause its so trivial to table people.

Yes? That's one of the pretty much universal complaints about 8th is how deadly it is.


Beating them so bad they cant score ****, sure, but then if they pull a 3 on 1d3 objectives you lose despite having massacred the other and that just sucks. We've seen Daemons players get mileage out of score / capture based decks, due to mobility and plaguebearers / nurglings lasting more than they should; jetbikes can also take objectives from basically anywhere and moving custodes out of a point they want is extremely hard.

Its ok if you haven't tried it, its less ITC and closer to normal maelstrom, and the mini-game of knowing what to put down, what to reshuffle back into the deck, etc. is very engaging, for us at least. Regular maelstrom, since what you'd draw was a crapshoot anyways, did become 'Ill just table the **** out of you instead', because people here hate randumb stuff and taking 'just in case' stuff they wouldnt normally take. I keep wondering just how much our TCG background warps how we play 40k.

Sorry mate, gotta agree with cheese here. You take out anything that could be impossible, like getting objectives that will be on the other side of the board with 6 troops units squatting on it, which means removing all the objective cards and 6 more that are inconvenient. Doing it any other way is gimping yourself.


big casual fellow

Early contender for next thread title?


, being A-Tier means you aint 'pre-nerf Ynnari' S-Tier, so there is plenty of room to complain. While some people are happy and excited about Sisters being 'High B-Tier', for some people anything that isnt an S-Tier contender doesnt exist, and they have a right to their fun as much as anyone else. Wish GW was better at balance of course.

And we have a right to tell them to stfu and stop being big crybabies who can't win unless their army has numerous huge advantages over their opponents. When your fun comes at the expense of others fun, it's not good for your meta or the longevity of your group.


They did, briefly, when Bolter Discipline included them, and then it didnt anymore and then the faction became S-Tier so forget about any buffs coming its way.

Yes, but they're marines, so you can never quite tell. They've probably sold enough gullible-mans that they don't feel the need to buff him yet.


Well, either your terrain is trash, your TO isnt doing his job of placing objectives in non-retarded areas or I dont know what to tell you. I can count on one hand the times I've given out first blood this year, and it wouldnt even take all the hand. "Kill points are easy" only works if one of the other side is deploying dumbly into firing lines. If it costs your opponent having to become exposed then thats also a price to be paid; I think I've had an easier time when I've gone second mostly because overextending is real and trying super hard to fish for kill points means you eat the counter-punch like a sucker.

Then its probably because Craftworlds is amazing and Phantasm is a great stratagem :D.

Granted, most of our tournaments are Doubles, so maybe a lot of what Im experiencing comes from there.

"Well I don't have any problems because I play an army full of -ve to hit modifiers against newbies, so its not a real problem." That's what I read from your post.

[Forum Explorer]

'Eldar Flyers' would be the 9-planes netlist. I play 'just 3' with a bunch of infantry :v. But for example Knights, Custodes, IG, etc. arent that easy to shoot to nothing Turn 1. Sure, there'll be a crater where guardsmen used to be, but there's so many of them it hardly counts.



That seems solid enough at the points level, Noise marines can shoot twice right? That seems really nasty. Not so sure about the bikers, its one of those units I've always seen underperform

From what I remember, your last list had everything with a -2 to hit, save for a single squad of Guardians who would end up with a 3++. Oh, and had a -1 to hit. Or else was a character.

Regardless, we aren't talking about shooting to nothing. We're talking about killing 1 to 3 things. Kill 30 Guardsmen? Boom, D3 points. Hold any three objectives? Boom, D3 points. Cast 3 Psyker powers, Boom, D3 points. All of those things are trivial for most Eldar armies to achieve. Just those three objectives is already 25% of your total objectives in that mode.

[Cheesegear]

I can count on one hand the times I've given out first blood this year, and it wouldnt even take all the hand.

...Counter to that, that means you've been getting First Blood almost every game, then. Correct?
Good times.

[Hootman]

From what I remember, your last list had everything with a -2 to hit, save for a single squad of Guardians who would end up with a 3++. Oh, and had a -1 to hit. Or else was a character.

I imagine there aren't much for Orks in that meta, then. Minuses to hit don't do jack against them in terms of points "wasted" on otherwise good ballistic skills, since they barely use it anyways, and get exploding 6s ignoring modifiers. And can pay CP for exploding 5s, ignoring mods. And, y'know, get into melee.

Just don't go all in on the ITC standard Ork Shokk-Grot list, and you'd be good. Or bring lotsa Traktor Kannons, which don't even roll to hit.

[Cheesegear]

I imagine there aren't much for Orks in that meta...

Orks are real good... As long as you don't care about Bikers or Biker Nobs, Trukks, Battlewagons, Dredds or Killa Kans. Which is like...Everything a non-8th Ed. Ork player would have.

[Avaris]

By 'edit your deck', you mean "Remove SebObX 1-6, Remove DefOb 1-6, and then also six more.", and then you just try and table your opponent, exactly like you would do in the ITC. :smallwink:

One thing I’ve tried in the past is saying ‘you must have X objective linked cards’. Not sure how many would be the right number though.

[Drasius]

One thing I’ve tried in the past is saying ‘you must have X objective linked cards’. Not sure how many would be the right number though.

Cool, I take the minimum required amount, guess at what pattern they're placed on the table in, have a 75% chance at either choosing the side with all my objectives on it or getting assigned that side by my opponent and deploy to sit on them.

[Avaris]

Cool, I take the minimum required amount, guess at what pattern they're placed on the table in, have a 75% chance at either choosing the side with all my objectives on it or getting assigned that side by my opponent and deploy to sit on them.

Yeah, this is why I said ‘not sure what the right number is’. Obviously, the answer is ‘it depends on the play experience you want’, but as a gut feeling saying ‘at least half your cards must be objectives and ‘each objective must appear at least once’ would help prevent castling. I’m sure there are other similar refinements that could be made.

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, this is why I said ‘not sure what the right number is’. Obviously, the answer is ‘it depends on the play experience you want’

I've said previously that 7th Ed. was the best edition I'd ever played - going as far back as 2nd. I now consider 8th Ed. to be the best edition I've ever played. A huge chunk of the reason why, was or is the introduction of the Maelstrom format, and progressive scoring. That is, every tun matters, every phase matters.

A big, big, big problem with older editions - IMO - was the format of the Missions, which we still see in the original 8th Ed. rulebook. The only turn that matters, is the last turn. Stay in your DZ for four turns (why would you ever leave terrain/Cover?) and then on Turn 5+, try and move as fast as you can to the Objectives, and hope the game ends on Turn 5. Which is pretty much exactly how the ITC currently plays, based on the most common (and therefore, easiest to score) Secondaries that get chosen.

Maelstrom pulls down that style's pants, and then pile drives it into the ground. You need to leave - or have the ability to leave - your DZ, on Turn 1, with 'about half' of your army. 6" Move, 12" Move, doesn't matter. Get out of your DZ and start planning on how you're going to score Objectives, because staying in your DZ with your whole army, for four turns, will lose you the game. Every time.
I wouldn't necessarily call it more dynamic play. But I will back it to the hilt, as the most engaging way to play, since you don't go to sleep whilst your opponent just batters your army 'cause they don't have to do anything else, and you don't get to do the same, either.

[Forum Explorer]

Seriously, I think 6-10 is the right number of objectives to eject from the game. That gets rid of Domination, Psychological Warfare, Priority Orders Received, and still leaves you with enough room to get rid of the literally impossible ones like Harness the Warp if you are playing something like Necrons, or the objectives in your opponent's Deployment zone. While still leaving you with plenty of other hold/defend objectives.

[Drasius]

Yeah, this is why I said ‘not sure what the right number is’. Obviously, the answer is ‘it depends on the play experience you want’, but as a gut feeling saying ‘at least half your cards must be objectives and ‘each objective must appear at least once’ would help prevent castling. I’m sure there are other similar refinements that could be made.

Correct answer is 0, but remove literally impossible cards (cast a power as Tau, destroy a vehicle vs 'Nids etc).

[Forum Explorer]

Correct answer is 0, but remove literally impossible cards (cast a power as Tau, destroy a vehicle vs 'Nids etc).

I disagree as some objectives are pure BS. Anything that deals with morale are the worst offenders, but there are others.

[Drasius]

Yeah, but you've gotta have those in there so the 3 guys playing ld bomb lists don't feel even worse than they already do.

[Blackhawk748]

Orks are real good... As long as you don't care about Bikers or Biker Nobs, Trukks, Battlewagons, Dredds or Killa Kans. Which is like...Everything a non-8th Ed. Ork player would have.

The death of the Kan wall hurt. Pretty much every Ork player pre 7th had one of those.

[Hootman]

The death of the Kan wall hurt. Pretty much every Ork player pre 7th had one of those.

Not me!


Orks are real good... As long as you don't care about Bikers or Biker Nobs, Trukks, Battlewagons, Dredds or Killa Kans. Which is like...Everything a non-8th Ed. Ork player would have.

...But that's because I am a Bikerz guy.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, but you've gotta have those in there so the 3 guys playing ld bomb lists don't feel even worse than they already do.

Why? So they can feel even worse when they still fail to get Psychological Warfare because you just pop 2CP to auto-pass or are just flat out immune to morale in the first place? :smallwink: :smalltongue:

[Drasius]

Why? So they can feel even worse when they still fail to get Psychological Warfare because you just pop 2CP to auto-pass or are just flat out immune to morale in the first place? :smallwink: :smalltongue:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

[LansXero]

...Counter to that, that means you've been getting First Blood almost every game, then. Correct?
Good times.

When I wanted to, sure. But if I didnt with 3 flyers one of which auto-hits and might as well auto-wound, I'd be a terrible player. But then, sometimes the cost is to suicide said planes fishing for a firing angle and just not worth it.


I imagine there aren't much for Orks in that meta, then. Minuses to hit don't do jack against them in terms of points "wasted" on otherwise good ballistic skills, since they barely use it anyways, and get exploding 6s ignoring modifiers. And can pay CP for exploding 5s, ignoring mods. And, y'know, get into melee.

Just don't go all in on the ITC standard Ork Shokk-Grot list, and you'd be good. Or bring lotsa Traktor Kannons, which don't even roll to hit.

Its all about positioning, playing chicken, and grindingly peel the orkish onion to get at the actual threats. Its tricky, but there is a tipping point at which they collapse. Or you're dead.

[Blackhawk748]

Its all about positioning, playing chicken, and grindingly peel the orkish onion to get at the actual threats. Its tricky, but there is a tipping point at which they collapse. Or you're dead.

If the Orks aren't pretending its WWI and they're at the Argonne, they're doing it wrong. You should be drowned in bodies and shelled into oblivion with their KMKs and Shokk Attack Guns, especially if there isn't an ITC Chess Clock.

Yes, you're gonna slaughter Orks, but there's easily 150 Boys alone on the board and the question is can you kill them fast enough? And even if you do wipe them, how many VP did they score in that time? Orks love Maelstrom as it forces people to get their rear-ends out of their DZ and into the mid-field, right were Orks like them.

ITC pretty much removes them with Time Clocks.

[Hootman]

Has anyone really tried playing with the Apocalypse trays (or a 3rd party equivalent) with hordes of any kind? It seems like they would be useful enough for shooting or Da Jumping, but bad for assaulting.

[Cheesegear]

Has anyone really tried playing with the Apocalypse trays (or a 3rd party equivalent) with hordes of any kind?

The official Apocalypse trays are borderline useless, since they're made for that game, specifically, where unit coherency is 1/2". That's real bad in a game where unit coherency is 2" (i.e; in 40K).
Even if you can get past that, trays work, right up until your board has terrain on it that you want to move through.

[druid91]

The official Apocalypse trays are borderline useless, since they're made for that game, specifically, where unit coherency is 1/2". That's real bad in a game where unit coherency is 2" (i.e; in 40K).
Even if you can get past that, trays work, right up until your board has terrain on it that you want to move through.

Why is that really bad though? Unless it's a Melee unit. But even there, I would forgo the use of trays entirely.

[LansXero]

They're pretty useful to set up, makes it faster and helps carry stuff as well.

[Cheesegear]

They're pretty useful to set up, makes it faster and helps carry stuff as well.

Pretty much.
I guess what I meant to say, is that they're really useful in ITC where you castle up and win games, and 1/2" coherancy on your units is fine-thank-you-very-much 'cause what you're trying to do is jam as many models into a Ruin's - or other terrain piece's, I suppose - footprint as you can.

For an army that actually wants to move at all - and that includes most hordes - and especially in Maelstrom, movement trays become obsolete on Turn 1, because they aren't so much movement trays, as they are carry trays. Explain to me how a unit of 30 Termagants conga-lining 45" from the Neurothrope in their DZ, to the Objective in your DZ can be adequately mounted on movement trays?

https://i.imgur.com/haqnHGT.png

One of my favourite images from Cancon this year. This is what used to happen before ITC introduced chess clocks...And I used to use it show people on Facebook how they were playing Tyranids totally wrong. Termagants are worse than Guardsmen. They don't do anything, except never fail Morale tests, and when 30 models is only 120 Points, you have some of the best board control in the game, and how are you not winning every game you play?
(No, you see, Tyranids are really bad. A player who hasn't played since 5th Ed., told me. What they might mean, is, "Tyranids, the way I want to play them, are bad." Which is a whole different thing. Apply the same to Orks, too, while you're at it.)

But, the point is, that this would basically be impossible using movement trays, because the unit starts the game as a blob, then evolves into being on the other side of the board.

Imgur Link (https://imgur.com/haqnHGT)

[Stardot]

Anyone know any insect minis roughly the size of a Hive Tyrant sans wings

[Wraith]

Explain to me how a unit of 30 Termagants conga-lining 45" from the Neurothrope in their DZ, to the Objective in your DZ can be adequately mounted on movement trays?

Wasn't there a rule that a unit could only claim one objective at a time? Or was that something outdated from a previous edition? Because that is disgusting..... I love it, but its disgusting :smalltongue:


Anyone know any insect minis roughly the size of a Hive Tyrant sans wings

Goblin Arachnoks and Giant Spiders, from AoS? (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/searchResults?_dyncharset=UTF-8&_dynSessConf=2005076771569542827&qty=&sorting=&view=&Ntt=spider)

OoP Tomb Kings' Tome Scorpions? Shelob from GW's Lord of the Rings line? Reaper Miniatures do a list of D&D stuff that includes giant insects, spiders, and insectile stuff like Frost Wyrms?

Or try your local toy shop and see if they have any giant insect toys - I know one or two people who bought plastic toy dinosaurs and used them as Carnosaurs/Stegadons a few generations of Lizardmen ago.

[Stardot]

Never noticed the gigantic spider was on a 50mm base, thanks!

[JNAProductions]

So, I'm looking at getting into 30k. Advice on picking a legion/faction? General how-to? Other advice?

[Drasius]

So, I'm looking at getting into 30k. Advice on picking a legion/faction? General how-to? Other advice?

Depends on your meta and what you want out of your army. Obvious advice is to paint what you like, but I probably wouldn't play Emperors Children with major hopes of rolling face nor expect to field Thousad Sons without being called a power gamer. You are officially a terrible person if you field phosphex rapiers in any amount and I'm fairly sure it's legal to murder anyone who brings 9.

Most legions have neat tricks you can build into or special characters to build around, so again, pick what you like, especially if your meta really is narrative focused.

Despite the fact that it uses 7ths ruleset, there's quite a few differences and the missions alone show that, but there's also a significant departure from the normal force org chart in how you build your army, occasionally making for some annoying restrictions.

AV 14 suddenly means something again because armoured ceramite means no double dice for melta and it's on (or available on) almost everything. Expect to see a Spartan with termies and a praetor and/or primarch rammed down the middle, so having a plan for dealing with that is a thing.

Non-legion forces are usually quite strong and often a fair departure from the cavalcade of t4 3+ bodies you generally expect to see. Choom Volkite will do serious work against solar auxilia but you'll likely be a touch disappointed if you turn it on custards. Pure knights is less common, but can be a real spoiler army to some lists.

Almost everything is geared around removing marines without saves, so expect to sweep 20 man tac squads off the board like they were grots. Still, you need some troop presence since only certain models score in most missions.

If you can summon Vaz, they will undoubtedly have much better advice than anything I could give though, so definitely listen to Vaz.

[JNAProductions]

Thanks for the advice, Drasius. :)

[Cheesegear]

If you can summon Vaz, they will undoubtedly have much better advice than anything I could give though, so definitely listen to Vaz.

Vaz was banhammered quite some time ago, IIRC. So...Good like with that. :smallwink:

[Drasius]

Geez, I go dark for a few days weeks months years and I lose track of everyone.

In that case, yeah, either post up what style of army you want to play and I can suggest a legion to look at or throw out a couple of legions and I can probably put together a few things to start looking at. One of the biggest factors is going to be if you've got a certain rite of war / playstyle in mind, though you can make anything work. Despite the memes, white scars had a group of seige specialists, iron warriors had a force focused on bikes and speeders, death guard had pure tank forces etc.

[Cheesegear]

Wasn't there a rule that a unit could only claim one objective at a time? Or was that something outdated from a previous edition?

A single unit may hold multiple Objectives. The idea being that because an Objective is held by 'most models', it's unlikely that a single unit could hold multiple Objectives with any decent amount of models, and that if you really tried, you could stop them. Unfortunately, that rule has become significantly dated as GW keeps introducing ways to make cheap models, durable, and multiple ways of preventing them from taking Morale tests - including just spending 2 CPs.


Because that is disgusting...I love it, but its disgusting :smalltongue:

If you're pushing your horde forwards with a Casino Chips Rake, and therefore that makes you believe that movement trays would speed up your movement phase, you're playing your horde wrong, and you have massively not understood why hordes are so strong. You can't just 'push them forwards', and that's why they take so long to play. If you could just push them forwards, there'd be no problem. But you can't just say 'Movement trays wont work' because most people can't understand why without visual assistance, because most people don't 'play the game that way', because it doesn't occur to them to do so, or, they're simply unwilling to.

Measuring unit- and Objective-coherency (and for Tyranids you have to add in Synapse, too), takes up a huge amount of time because you're moving your units non-uniformly, whilst maintaining 'clusters' of models that you can remove from the unit after casualties, that don't break the entire conga line.

[JNAProductions]

Geez, I go dark for a few days weeks months years and I lose track of everyone.

In that case, yeah, either post up what style of army you want to play and I can suggest a legion to look at or throw out a couple of legions and I can probably put together a few things to start looking at. One of the biggest factors is going to be if you've got a certain rite of war / playstyle in mind, though you can make anything work. Despite the memes, white scars had a group of seige specialists, iron warriors had a force focused on bikes and speeders, death guard had pure tank forces etc.

Can I get some details on Word Bearers, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists?

[Avaris]

Can I get some details on Word Bearers, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists?

Goohhammer has an in depth article on HH Iron Hands, and I think are doing others fortnightly. https://www.goonhammer.com/warhammer-40000-the-horus-heresy-legion-overview-the-iron-hands/

[JNAProductions]

Goohhammer has an in depth article on HH Iron Hands, and I think are doing others fortnightly. https://www.goonhammer.com/warhammer-40000-the-horus-heresy-legion-overview-the-iron-hands/

Ooh... Shiny...

[Squark]

Making a Battle Company

NB. This is based on the Chapter Organisation found in Imperial Fists, not in the core Codex.

x6 Battleline
Intercessors: Bolt Rifles and Stalkers. Both are very good for what they do. The majority of the 8th Ed. Battle Company should be represented by these dudes.

Tacticals: Grav-Cannon Heavy Bolter and Combi-Plasma? Still very expensive for 1-wound models, whose cheapness is cancelled out by the fact that you have to pick up Heavy Bolters to make them worth anything? Skip.

Infiltrators: I play in Maelstrom. One unit is basically required. I'd go for two units of 5 for greater board control. But since I already know the HQ I'm going to pick, that's not important.

The biggest problem is lack of Heavy weapons. Yeah, sure. Fists' Stalker Bolt Rifles are Heavy and Bolt weapons, and that's...Something. If I was Iron Hands, it'd be all Stalkers, all the time. But, I'm not, so it's not.

x2 Close Support
Reivers: ...No.

Incursors: Not being Battleline, really hurts this unit when it comes to making a Battle Company. It's just not going to fit into twin Battalions or a Brigade. So...Next. I love Incursors for a Turn 1 stall tactic, but...Yeah. They're just not gonna fit.

Inceptors: I want to include them so bad. Unfortunately, they just don't bring what I'm not already bringing. I wish I had Scouts in my Troops slot. :smallsigh:

Assault Squad: ...No.

Centurion Assault Squads: ...God damn these guys are so good. Strong really strong horde-clearing power, combined with dedicated Vehicle smashing, all on a tough, durable unit, that only costs ~50 Points a model. Unfortunately, I just can't justify them, 'cause they're just so slow, and I don't think I can keep them alive for that long.

Biker Squads: Cheap source of Meltaguns? Yes. Also carries Twin Boltguns each? ...Yes. Very solid unit. I'm also not White Scars, I'm Imperial Fists. So I treat them like a T5 unit that carries Storm Bolters...Not like a Melee unit that can't climb stairs.

Attack Bikes: ...No.

Land Speeders: ...It's times like these I wish I played Iron Hands or Ultramarines. Unfortunately...I don't. I have to play...*vomit* a fair Chapter of Space Marines.

x2 Fire Support
Hellblasters: I'd really like to carry a unit of Heavies. Unfortunately, that's a lot of points...So...Pass. For now. I think.

Eliminators: I don't play in an ITC meta where seeing through walls is mandatory. I'm also carting a bunch of Stalker Rifles, and we already know the HQ I'm running. I really need Heavy weapons at this point.

Aggressors: ...In an army that's running six Troops as it is, and all Boltguns, at that, Aggressors give me what I don't need.

Suppressors: ...What am I? Ultramarines or Iron Hands?

Devastators: There it is. Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Fat Baby. 150 Points. Will really like to upgrade to x4 Lascannons. We'll see how the points shake out.

Centurion Devastators: I'd love to. But no. Not this time.

Characters
Captain: ...Tor Garadon, is out. Obviously looking at the standard Battle Company, it's extremely shooty. So, looks like we're taking the Phobos Captain for a cool 99 Points.
Lieutenant: Primaris, for preference. But, we're Imperial Fists, so a small!Lieutenant with a Storm Bolter is good enough for me.
Company Ancient: Primaris, for preference.
Company Champion: ...Eew. Really? Do I have to?
Company Veterans: ...*Vomit*

Dreadnoughts
Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts carry Heavy weapons that I desperately need. Unfortunately, Venerable Dreads cost a few extra points that I really don't want to spend. A Contemptor Dreadnought is one of the best units Imperial Fists can field...But, once again, I don't think I have the points, and a single Assault Cannon just isn't that great. Redemptors I'm not running, 'cause once again, I'm not Iron Hands. Vicky Warsuits I'd strongly like to run, and once again, we'll see what we're doing.

Let's apply my knowledge...

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armour; Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo Cloak - 99 Points
Lieutenant; Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 62 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points

Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points
Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points

Imperial Fists, Battalion
HQ 1; ???
HQ 2; ???

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 110 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points

Total: 1220 Points

...Huh? Is that all. Well, I'm missing all those extra Veteran models, and I still need two extra HQs. Librarian and Chaplain, obviously.

Librarian; Force Stave, Tectonic Purge - 88 Points
Chaplain; Recitation of Focus - 72 Points

Primaris Ancient - 69 Points
Company Champion; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Combat Shield - 51 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Storm Bolters & Chainswords - 80 Points

Total: 1580 Points

...Take out those dumb Veterans and it's exactly 1500 Points...That's...Something. Now to add Dreadnoughts. Now that I'm including Vehicles in my list, might as well add a Techmarine, right?

Techmarine; Boltgun & Chainsword - 45 Points

Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 130 Points
Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 130 Points

Total: 1885 Points

Well, make 'em both Venerable for +40 Points. Let's switch the Techmarine, for a full-on Thunderfire Cannon for...uhh...'Support Elements', for +47 Points. Still 28 Points to go. Huh. Remember, the Chaplain's Litany, if it goes off, gives +1 to hit, so what's wrong with upping one of the Devastators to Hellblasters (+25) that can't explode?

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Captain in Phobos Armour; Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine, Camo Cloak - 99 Points
Lieutenant; Storm Bolter & Chainsword - 62 Points

Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Stalker Bolt Rifles, Stalker Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points

Primaris Ancient - 69 Points
Company Champion; Master-Crafted Power Sword, Combat Shield - 51 Points
Company Veterans (x5); Storm Bolters & Chainswords - 80 Points

Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points
Bikes (x3); Meltagun (x2), Combi-Melta, Twin Boltguns (x3) - 112 Points

Imperial Fists, Battalion
Librarian; Force Stave, Tectonic Purge - 88 Points
Chaplain; Recitation of Focus - 72 Points

Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Intercessors (x5); Bolt Rifles, Bolt Rifle & Chainsword - 85 Points
Infiltrators (x5) - 110 Points

Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 150 Points
Venerable Dreadnought; Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 150 Points

Devastators (x5); Heavy Bolter, Lascannons (x2), Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub - 150 Points
Hellblasters (x5); Heavy Plasma Incinerators - 175 Points
Thunderfire Cannon; Flamer, Plasma Cutter - 92 Points

Total: 1997 Points | 13 CPs

...Huh. That actually looks better than I originally thought it would. Maybe switch the Dreads to Contemptors? Playtest time, I guess. I think I actually have to switch them to Vicky Warsuits for some early board control?

Doesn't a full battle company have two Lieutenants, though?

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, ran the Learn to Play today. No one really new showed up, just two veteran players from the 5th edition days looking to get back in. They seemed excited, though, so maybe it'll stick.

[Cheesegear]

Felt a little bit bad when my aforementioned fairly fluffy Space Marine Company totally smashed a gimmick Salamanders' list, 22-7.

Battalion
Vulkan He'stan
Lieutenant; Combi-Melta & Chainsword

Scouts (x5); Missile Launcher
Scouts (x5); Heavy Bolter
Scouts (x5); Sniper Rifles (x5)

Assault Centurions (x5); Flamers & Hurricanes
Assault Centurions (x5); Flamers & Hurricanes
Assault Centurions (x4); Flamers & Hurricanes

Land Raider Crusader; Multi-Melta, Storm Bolter
Land Raider Crusader; Multi-Melta, Storm Bolter
Land Raider Crusader; Storm Bolter

I deployed first, he went first. He moved everything up...Then lost the game.
I never expected my list to do so well on its first go-round.
Then again, I basically went against my dream matchup. :smallfrown:

[druid91]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/405170413514260482/654034268980510720/IMG_20191209_210110.jpg

So, Kitbashed Cult Witch for Necromunda. Thoughts?

[Blackhawk748]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/405170413514260482/654034268980510720/IMG_20191209_210110.jpg

So, Kitbashed Cult Witch for Necromunda. Thoughts?

Looks solid to me, kinda hard to get a good look at detail though

[LansXero]

An Aeldari list topped last weekend playing The Yncarne and Shining Spears.

Clearly I know nothing and should go play the Sims as I cant make heads nor tails off that list.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, it's official. I'm running the 40k Learn to Play at Indy Storm. Got my badge comped and everything. Working lists for teaching purposes:



++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Dark Angels) [32 PL, 519pts] ++

+ HQ +

Librarian [7 PL, 88pts]: 2) Aversion, 3. Brilliant Strategist, Force stave, Warlord

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [4 PL, 98pts]: 5x Camo cloak
. Heavy Weapon Scout: Missile launcher
. 3x Scout (Sniper rifle): 3x Sniper rifle
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 156pts]: 7x Space Marine
. Heavy Weapon Marine: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
. Special Weapon Marine: Plasma gun

+ Fast Attack +

Assault Squad [6 PL, 84pts]: Jump Pack
. Assault Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat shield, Power axe
. 4x Space Marine (Bolt Pistol)

Ravenwing Land Speeders [6 PL, 93pts]
. Ravenwing Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Typhoon missile launcher

++ Total: [32 PL, 519pts] ++

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [24 PL, 439pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 38pts]: Grand Strategist, Laspistol, Power fist, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 56pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Heavy Weapon Team: Autocannon
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 67pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 56pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Heavy Weapon Team: Autocannon
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

+ Elites +

Veterans [5 PL, 97pts]
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol
. Veteran W/ Heavy Flamer: Heavy flamer
. 5x Veteran w/ Lasgun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [6 PL, 79pts]: Heavy Flamer, Multi-laser

++ Total: [24 PL, 439pts] ++
Neither list is designed to be super good, but rather to showcase common unit types and interact with every phase of the game, hence the Librarian and Assault Marines. If anyone's got any ideas, let me know. My Dark Angels selection is fairly limited, but I can do most anything with Imperial Guard that doesn't involve Ogryns or Sentinels.

[Mystic Muse]

So, asking those who are way better at this game than I.

With the new codex, how is Celestine? Because she looks...still worse than her index version by a fair bit.

[Cheesegear]

With the new codex, how is Celestine? Because she looks...still worse than her index version by a fair bit.

Celestine is barely playable at this point:
1. Celestine is broken. Nerf her...Then nerf her again. (Although, to be fair, nerfing Acts of Faith, is what nerfed her the hardest)
2. Gotta sell Junith Eruita and/or Triumph, therefore, make the model you have already (i.e; Celestine), garbage, so you're forced to buy new models.

[Mystic Muse]

Celestine is barely playable at this point:


Pretty much what I was afraid of.

Given there are no rules for other living saints, and Celestine is the reason I wanted to play the army, guess I can write off Sisters of Battle for the foreseeable future.

[Cheesegear]

...guess I can write off Sisters of Battle for the foreseeable future.

...But your forum profile says you're female. You have to play the female-centric army. :smalltongue:


ION:
The Imperial Fists' 5th Company had another game vs. Venom-spam Drukhari - only two Planes. This game went very differently to vs. the Salamanders. Still won, though, 17-14. I'm very impressed with how the Battle Company is performing, and I don't know if that's because I'm a good player, or, if it's because Space Marines is - finally - a good Codex, and as long as you don't take the obviously trap units (e.g; Tactical Squads), you'll do fine.

Strongly considering switching the Missile/Las Venerable Dreads to Contemptors or Vicky Warsuits. However, knowing my luck, my next game will be against a pair of Knights.

IO,ON:
Really not happy about CA'19 making WD!Maelstrom the new standard. Trying to hold Objectives, is now stupid. Which means that Troops are only needed to make double Battalions or Brigades, and their only function is to generate CPs. Which means trying to run your Troops as cheap as possible, which, for Space Marines, means spamming Scouts, and by running a Battle Company, I am gimping myself for no reason... Well, the reason is that I'm a filthy casual who built my army toward the fluff. But, at some point that will cause me to lose games. Probably several. In a row.

[Mystic Muse]

...But your forum profile says you're female. You have to play the female-centric army. :smalltongue:


Tyranids are a matriarchy. That's close enough, right? :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

Tyranids are a matriarchy. That's close enough, right? :smalltongue:

That's what I'm told; Women play most commonly, in order; Craftworlds (of course), Tyranids and then Daemons (wait, what...).
The handful of women in my meta, are just as competitive as men, they saw the rules for Sororitas, and hard pass.

[Mystic Muse]

That's what I'm told; Women play most commonly, in order; Craftworlds (of course), Tyranids and then Daemons (wait, what...).
The handful of women in my meta, are just as competitive as men, they saw the rules for Sororitas, and hard pass.

Eldar is the one I don't have any appreciable amount of, because none of the models strike me the way other factions do, except the Triumvirate.

[Wraith]

Tyranids are a matriarchy. That's close enough, right? :smalltongue:

Absolutely not! You will like what the Games Workshop Marketing Department tells you to like and therefore prioritise your purchases accordingly, and that is final.

:smalltongue: In seriousness though, would you mind if I were to ask what drew you to Tyranids, Mystic? I don't mean to use you as a representative of all female gamers, but unfortunately my local gaming groups are overwhelmingly male so without imagining crude stereotypes they're the ones whose appeal I rarely (if ever) get to ask about?

[Mystic Muse]

So, when I started, my starting army was between Sisters of Battle, and tyranids.

I went with tyranids because I had a few from a few years back when I first tried and failed to get into the game, and sisters were still all metal or resin.

Tyranids I like because I've always liked the all-devouring alien locust trope. I'm also extremely fond of the Zerg (have a Kerrigan messenger bag) and Slivers (have a commander deck that is as good as it's getting without me happening into $2000).

Also got a few deals on various Tyranid things which didn't hurt.

They also just generally have a very neat look about them. I adore my hierophant.

[Wraith]

....and Slivers (have a commander deck that is as good as it's getting without me happening into $2000).

Heh, that sounds familiar. A gamer after my own heart. (Possibly to devour. :smalltongue: )

But thank you, for that; it seems that you like Tyranids not because they are "girly" but because they are just "cool".

<sarcasm> Wow. Whoever would have guessed? </sarcasm> GW certainly hasn't, apparently....

[Mystic Muse]

Heh, that sounds familiar. A gamer after my own heart. (Possibly to devour. :smalltongue: ) I also have 16 other commander decks fully constructed and ready to go at a moment's notice.




But thank you, for that; it seems that you like Tyranids not because they are "girly" but because they are just "cool".

<sarcasm> Wow. Whoever would have guessed? </sarcasm> GW certainly hasn't, apparently....

Honestly, I'm more than happy for things to be girly. Things can be both girly and cool.

What bugs me is a couple different things.

The first is, even for factions that could be women, like guard, almost every single model is male.

Then there's Slaanesh, which GW apparently can't seem to come up with anything interesting for. Heck, they could have had the option of making the Keeper of Secrets look blatantly feminine, but nope. Also, we're making the price $140 just 'cuz.

And then their "make things overpowered, then nerf them into oblivion." Policy means that a character who should be one of the biggest badasses in the setting compares extremely poorly to a generic Daemon Prince of Tzeentch.

And then there's the fact we haven't had a new primarch for 2 years, but that's going off on much more of a tangent.

[Wraith]

Honestly, I'm more than happy for things to be girly. Things can be both girly and cool.

What bugs me is a couple different things.

I beg your pardon, I didn't mean to imply that the two were mutually exclusive, only that GW seems to *think* they are. Otherwise, you're preaching to the choir - I can't recall any member of the GitP board who has disagreed with the same sentiments. :smallsmile:


And then there's the fact we haven't had a new Primarch for 2 years, but that's going off on much more of a tangent.

I keep hearing rumours that Psychic Awakening might be the catalyst for just that. The next book features Dark Angels and the last one will feature Space Wolves, and yet more rumours have been suggesting that Lion El'Johnson or Leman Russ might be next... I personally remain sceptical, but I struggle to imagine a better opportunity to tie either one in to a big event and give them a decent launch before 9th edition comes out. :smalltongue:

[9mm]

So as my kill team grows, it's slowly becoming big enough to just be a 40k detachment. What's your recommendations for kits to make a jump captain with a two-handed sword?

[Squark]

So as my kill team grows, it's slowly becoming big enough to just be a 40k detachment. What's your recommendations for kits to make a jump captain with a two-handed sword?

Hmm... I'd say start with the Vanguard Veteran or Assault Squad kits. The Vanguard Vets will look more ornate, so they get my recommendation unless you play a rather spartan Chapter. That gives you a body and the jump pack. The Space Marine Commander box and Upgrade sprues are good sources of ornate helmets. The SM commander box also includes an Iron Halo, which every non-Space Wolves Captain should have*. As for the sword... The Assault Squad has an eviscerator (2 handed chainsword), while the Vanguard Vets have a relic blade that is clearly intended to be used in two hands based on the hilt, even if the sword is currently only in one hand. Another possible source of two handed swords is the Grey Knights kit- Basic GK swords are 2 handed weapons. The eviscerator would make a good Teath of Terra, while the relic blade is a good fit for a more generic 2H sword. Finally, you should consider what other weapon your captain uses- a Storm Bolter or Storm Shield is probably the best option. Grey knights come with a wrist mounted storm bolter, which sounds perfect for you, actually.

*SW Captains Wolf Lords Jarls have special belts instead.

[Selpharia]

On the discussion of Sisters as the “for girls” army: I like a lot of the rules for Sisters, to me it seems like they’ll play with an interestingly aggressive style, with a number of reasonably functional options. I do wish Celly were a little better, and I’m not a huge fan of the default Sisters fluff: much like AoS Daughters Of Khaine, it’s a faction of ladies dedicated to worshipping a man, which isn’t a great look. But I’ve played Eldar, Ynnari and some custom Fem!Custodes long enough that I expect to have to add my own queerness and femininity to whatever faction I’m using. For instance, my Order is basically going to be a pain cult masquerading as the Imperial Creed, set up by a bored Haemonculus on a lark.

[Ornithologist]

Huh, For some reason I thought The Daughters of Khaine worshiped Morathi. That is disappointing. Still, that Order concept sounds very entertaining.

[9mm]

Huh, For some reason I thought The Daughters of Khaine worshiped Morathi. That is disappointing. Still, that Order concept sounds very entertaining.

Technically the Daughters of Khaine worship Khaine, the dead god of murder. Its out right stated that Morathri is trying to siphon that worship to become a god.

[Don Qui Ho Tep]

Played Maelstrom with a buddy last night. It went very well!

Battalion - Black Legion
Abaddon - 240 (W)
Daemon Prince with Wings; Slaanesh, Delightful Agonies, Intoxicating Elixir, Double-Talons, Warp Bolter - 183

20 x Cultists; Autogun, 2x Heavy Stubber - 104
10 x Cultists; Close Combat, Flamer - 56
10 x Cultists; Close combat, Flamer - 56

8 x Noise Marines; Blastmaster, Sonic Blaster x 6, Combi-plasma, Doom Siren - 183

3 x Bikers; Chainswords, Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer - 178

3 x Bikers; Chainswords, Flamer, Flamer, Combi-Flamer - 178

1000 Pts, 10 CP

Battalion - T'au Sept
Ethereal
Cadre Fireblade

2 x Broadsides - Rail Guns, smart missiles
2 x Broadsides - High-yield missile pods, smart missiles

3 x Stealth Battlesuits

5 x Firewarriors
5 x Firewarriors
5 x Firewarriors

1 x Riptide with a lot of guns


Mission: Spoils of War from main rulebook, which allows either person to score an active Secure Objective X card if the conditions are met. Before the game I removed Scour the Skies, Witch Hunter, Big Game Hunter, the Long War, Assassinate, and Psychological Warfare. Deployment was good ol' fashioned 12" from the table edge.

It was a fun game. A very refreshing change from ITC.

Turn 1
I got first turn. Objectives 2, 4, and 6 were close to my deployment zone. One unit of bikers camped behind terrain on the objective, which let me score Secure Objective 4. The other bike squad advanced to get to the stealth suits, camped out in a crater and camping on Objective 5. My Daemon Prince swooped up behind them, chilling behind a column, and cast Delightful Agonies. On my left side, Abaddon was holding down the fort with his cultist blobs who slowly moved out of the DZ. Tau-friend had castled up pretty good on the left, with his Riptide, Broadsides, two firewarrior teams, and Ethereal and Fireblade making a nice support bubble. Only the last Firewarrior team and the Stealth Suits were on my right flank. To that end, the Noise Marines also began their march towards the castle. Shooting was pretty underwhelming - I got one stealth suit out (-1 to hit, plus advancing meant I was hitting on 5s with my combi-bolters and 4s with my warp bolter. Thank god I rolled 13 flamer shots). In retrospect I should have used Veterans of the Long War right away but I usually play Red Corsairs and kept forgetting it was an option. Noise Marines were much more successful - they knocked the Firewarrior squads down to two and one body respectively and put some wounds on the Riptide.

His response was as you'd expect. Abaddon was well shielded which helped to dilute the railgun fire, but the missile pods are able to just roll buckets of dice. He killed one unit of cultists (boo-hoo) and scored First Blood. His firewarriors and Stealth Suits on the right flank shot back at the bikers but thanks to their warding they only lost one man. The noise marines were also the object of ire, taking some hits from the Riptide but managing to save all but one. The ethereal's ability to reroll 1s doesn't help much when you hit on 4s. But Abaddon was having similar issues with the cultists, so it's hardly my place to judge. He scored one of my Secure Objective X cards.

Turn 2
I generated Advance, which was great - the only units in my DZ were bikers. They moved up to unload also into the stealth suits. Abaddon and cultists moved further towards the castle. I had 13 models left in my shooting unit of cultists and the ten-man unit was at full strength, so I decided to risk Tide of Traitors for another turn. My noise marines moved up just a bit, staying out of the 15" rapid fire range (pulse rifles are made to take out marines and they are pretty okay at it). More shooting deleted the two firewarrior squads and put more wounds on the broadsides. First time taking a full unit of Sonic Blasters - they are scary effective. I bought the upgrade pack on a whim, to see if it would fit on the bodies of the new sprue. I only had the new CSM sprue because I wanted to chop and screw my biker squads so they had elements of the new aesthetic. Both investments panned out! This scored me Overwhelming Firepower. The rest of my shooting was a bit underwhelming - cultists did no damage whatsoever (again forgetting to trigger Veterans), and I only did one wound to the stealth suits - the other bike squad was out of range for flamers and although 12 combi-bolter shots is not nothing, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, and saving on 3s means that the stealth suits only took one wound. The firewarriors and stealth suits were withing 6" of each other, so to keep them from double-tapping I charged the firewarriors with the DP and the stealth suit with the bikers. The stealth suits are tough and took another casualty and another wound. The firewarriors were killed to a man.

On Tau-friend's turn, he moved the stealth-suits off to catch another objective, the card for which both he and I had drawn and he was able to score. His Riptide and broadsides worked together to blow up my DP, which despite having cast Delightful Agonies on himself he could not endure. He killed a few more cultists and did a bit more damage to the Noise Marines, who lost 1 to morale. The stealth suits killed another biker and left the last with one wound.

Turn 3
I moved the cultists up to the front of the castle and Abaddon close behind. I used Tide of Traitors to set up the 20-person shooting unit on my right, his left flank, 6" off his table edge. I scored Defend Objective X (don't remember which). Noise marines, now much reduced, took a couple pot shots at the Broadsides but most of it was ineffective. Bikers continued to camp on objectives on the right flank and managed to kill the last stealth suit through shooting. I charged the broadsides with Abaddon, who was out of line of sight, then followed up with the cultists, who were mostly killed by smart missiles. Abaddon killed both broadsides and consolidated into the next unit of broadsides.

On his turn, Tau-friend killed my Noise Marines and scored a Secure Objective X. Music of the Apocalypse was consistently ineffective, except for the Doomsiren. He killed a few more cultists but didn't have many options left. We were running out of time and decided to call it a game.

I won 6-5 - I don't remember every objective we scored so I'm sure the math is a bit different in the write-up.

Overall takeaways: we both had fun and preferred the format to others we had tried - there was an ITC game happening behind us for our local league and I kept looking over my shoulder to compare. I feel like it solved some of the issues I've had with the game - persistent castling, lack of support for close combat, etc. Playing 1000 points was also refreshing - it was a little less lethal and I was always engaged during my opponent's turn (we're both in graduate school and very busy, and once during a 2000 point game I joked that I'll have plenty of time to write my dissertation during his shooting phase). I'd like to experiment with 1250, 1500 points and try and find a sweet spot. Curious also about other people's thoughts and feelings on this.

At the end of the day, we both had fun, and we'll try and find more ways that suits our respective playstyles that allow us to continue to have fun.

[Cheesegear]

On the discussion of Sisters as the “for girls” army: I like a lot of the rules for Sisters, to me it seems like they’ll play with an interestingly aggressive style, with a number of reasonably functional options. I do wish Celly were a little better, and I’m not a huge fan of the default Sisters fluff: much like AoS Daughters Of Khaine, it’s a faction of ladies dedicated to worshipping a man, which isn’t a great look.

I'd hardly call The Emperor 'a man'. But I get it.

I, personally, find more issue with that the reason that Sororitas exist, is because of a technicality/joke. Much in the same way that Salamanders shouldn't actually be the way they are - it's an abnormal mutation - Flesh Tearers recruit from GrimDark Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations), but their recruits' melanin is irrelevant once they get that sweet, sweet melanochrome.

...But hey, they do exist, so what's the problem, right?

ION:
Unrelated to 40K, but related to miniatures, I would like to make this model...

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/9/9d/Frulam_Mondath_-_Hoard_of_the_Dragon_Queen.png/revision/latest?cb=20171002091613

I'll probably start here...

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99070201018_ChaosSorcerorLord01.jpg

I'd really like to use a Dark Elf Executioner as the base model. But no way am I buying an entire box for a single model.

[snowblizz]

That's what I'm told; Women play [...] Daemons (wait, what...).
Because hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.


Absolutely not! You will like what the Games Workshop Marketing Department tells you to like and therefore prioritise your purchases accordingly, and that is final.
The GW Marketing Department, the last bastion of [insert favourite historical or current authoritive regime here].

I've been in the hobby since about -98/99 (though after the AoS debacle it's more of a toehold) and always wondered who they are and whose preferences they are actually considering.

[Wraith]

....and whose preferences they are actually considering.

From anecdotes I've heard on the internet and from friends who do or have worked in the industry, the answer seems to be "the GW writing team".

A semi-famous (notorious?) example would be Codex Orks. Through 4th edition, Codex Orks was written by Phil Kelly because.... Well, because they needed a Codex Orks and Phil happened to be in between writing codices at the moment. No one in the office played Orks, no one wanted to play Orks, but the book had to happen. Hence why Orks (4th) was completely forgettable and no one bothered to write another one until 7th edition - no one knew what the hell they were doing (and arguably, still didn't....)

[Requizen]

On the discussion of Sisters as the “for girls” army: I like a lot of the rules for Sisters, to me it seems like they’ll play with an interestingly aggressive style, with a number of reasonably functional options. I do wish Celly were a little better, and I’m not a huge fan of the default Sisters fluff: much like AoS Daughters Of Khaine, it’s a faction of ladies dedicated to worshipping a man, which isn’t a great look.

I do get the sentiment, but I kinda always assume that when people worship a deity the assumed gender of said deity doesn't matter so much as the aspect (unless that aspect is like masculinity/femininity, or something). Unless we're talking about the Greeks, because Zeus.

Either way, Sylvaneth/Wanderers might(?) be a better example then, as they worship Allarielle, though they are not purely female as a faction. Do trees have genders? I guess some of the Revenant spirits look that way.

[Blackhawk748]

A semi-famous (notorious?) example would be Codex Orks. Through 4th edition, Codex Orks was written by Phil Kelly because.... Well, because they needed a Codex Orks and Phil happened to be in between writing codices at the moment. No one in the office played Orks, no one wanted to play Orks, but the book had to happen. Hence why Orks (4th) was completely forgettable and no one bothered to write another one until 7th edition - no one knew what the hell they were doing (and arguably, still didn't....)

The 4th ed Ork Codex was fine. Fairly middle of the Road but it was at least decent. The 7th ed.... dear god that was a dumpster fire.

At least the 8th ed one has some basic understanding of how Orks work barring the weird Grot thing.

Also, around here the few women who play, all play Tyranids and that seems to be consistent with other people I talk to.

[LeSwordfish]

...one of my main female opponents plays tyranids too.

https://i.imgur.com/KAZLDw0.png

[Wraith]

The 4th ed Ork Codex was fine. Fairly middle of the Road but it was at least decent. The 7th ed.... dear god that was a dumpster fire.

That is pretty much my point. Orks 4th was 'okay', however Phil Kelly also wrote Eldar 4th, Space Wolves 5th, Imperial Guard 3rd and Dark Eldar 5th - y'know, all those other really good codices which defined a faction for years and shifted the meta in ways that we're still reeling from today.

And Orks 4th was just 'okay', because Phil Kelly doesn't play Orks. They got really, really lucky to get 'okay', when the alternative could have been Orks 7th, when Phil Kelly had gone and GW were left with other, less talented people who still didn't play Orks....

[Blackhawk748]

That is pretty much my point. Orks 4th was 'okay', however Phil Kelly also wrote Eldar 4th, Space Wolves 5th, Imperial Guard 3rd and Dark Eldar 5th - y'know, all those other really good codices which defined a faction for years and shifted the meta in ways that we're still reeling from today.

And Orks 4th was just 'okay', because Phil Kelly doesn't play Orks. They got really, really lucky to get 'okay', when the alternative could have been Orks 7th, when Phil Kelly had gone and GW were left with other, less talented people who still didn't play Orks....

Oh God yes, I totally know we got lucky. We could have had a Tyranid Cruddance moment, but Phil seemed to at least understand the basics of how Orks worked, and Mob Rule was (and still is) our standard by which we measure stuff.

Hell, that was one of the reasons the 7th Codex was disliked from the outset. Mob Rule was garbage. Plus the Initiative loss from the Furious Charge Nerf. That hurt too.

In any event, yes, Orks weren't nuts, but they were also a bit late to the party, and 5th was mean to everyone who wasn't Marines (and that one Guard list) and by 6 the Orks were too old to hang on by anything more than our Deff Guns.

It's been a rough decade

[LansXero]

Which is insane because what color or shape of plastic toys your employees like has no bearing on the products put out by a multi-million company like GW. Or shouldn't, at any rate.

[Blackhawk748]

Which is insane because what color or shape of plastic toys your employees like has no bearing on the products put out by a multi-million company like GW. Or shouldn't, at any rate.

You'd think, but it's been that way for pretty much ever. It's why certain factions just sort of... Lay there. Someone needs to actually care, and I'm pretty sure the studio has a heavy Guard, Space Marine and Eldar bias, with maybe some Chaos Daemons and Death Guard, but they're less consistent so it's hard to say.

[Wraith]

It makes a certain amount of sense. You want your codex to be good in order to make people want to buy it, and a simple way of making the codex good is by having it written by someone who knows what they're doing. Someone who plays the army and understands what they're trying to achieve with it makes an ideal candidate - they are both the expert and the target audience, so you know that their heart is in the same place as their head.

GW's failing is that their writers don't have enough variety as hobbyists. That's why Phil Kelly wrote for 8 or 9 different factions in his time with the company - because everyone else was busy playing (presumably) Space Marines of one flavour or another. They didn't have a target audience to tell them what the armies needed, and they didn't have an expert to know how to achieve that, so they instead got someone to grind out whatever they thought sounded more or less right.

Sometimes it worked and you got Orks 4th. Other times it didn't and you got Tyranids 5th. Sometimes you would get someone who thought they knew how to do it but missed the nuance and eventually were just throwing the biggest numbers at their favourite toys - Matt Ward. GW really ought to be in the position to tell a writer: You're doing Tyranids next, go read forums and play a hundred hours of games until you find out what makes Tyranids really good and give it to them; that they didn't do that was characteristic of their mismanagement and reliance on the marketing team making the decisions, not the creative team.

[LansXero]

It makes a certain amount of sense. You want your codex to be good in order to make people want to buy it, and a simple way of making the codex good is by having it written by someone who knows what they're doing. Someone who plays the army and understands what they're trying to achieve with it makes an ideal candidate - they are both the expert and the target audience, so you know that their heart is in the same place as their head.

GW's failing is that their writers don't have enough variety as hobbyists. That's why Phil Kelly wrote for 8 or 9 different factions in his time with the company - because everyone else was busy playing (presumably) Space Marines of one flavour or another. They didn't have a target audience to tell them what the armies needed, and they didn't have an expert to know how to achieve that, so they instead got someone to grind out whatever they thought sounded more or less right.

Sometimes it worked and you got Orks 4th. Other times it didn't and you got Tyranids 5th. Sometimes you would get someone who thought they knew how to do it but missed the nuance and eventually were just throwing the biggest numbers at their favourite toys - Matt Ward. GW really ought to be in the position to tell a writer: You're doing Tyranids next, go read forums and play a hundred hours of games until you find out what makes Tyranids really good and give it to them; that they didn't do that was characteristic of their mismanagement and reliance on the marketing team making the decisions, not the creative team.

Yeah no, whatever they do on their fun time should have no bearing on what they put out for sale. I hate Catan yet have to promote it because its a very popular gateway game and has a lot of buzz behind. This isnt some clubhouse, they're supposed to be professionals doing a paid job for a company.

But then it'd take a design document, clear literature on how mechanics interact with each other and actual professional rules design work. None of which are a thing for them apparently.

[Amechra]

Yeah no, whatever they do on their fun time should have no bearing on what they put out for sale. I hate Catan yet have to promote it because its a very popular gateway game and has a lot of buzz behind. This isnt some clubhouse, they're supposed to be professionals doing a paid job for a company.

But then it'd take a design document, clear literature on how mechanics interact with each other and actual professional rules design work. None of which are a thing for them apparently.

There's a difference there - you're selling Catan. You don't need to know or understand anything about it to do your job - it helps, but you don't need it.

That's not the case when you're making the game, though. Ideally, you'd have a QA team playtesting it and clear communication channels between them and development... but sometimes that doesn't happen (for whatever crazy reason, management has this nasty tendency to undervalue QA). If you make the development team playtest in addition to their other duties, they'll do a bad job because testing things is hard and not very fun.

[Blackhawk748]

There's a difference there - you're selling Catan. You don't need to know or understand anything about it to do your job - it helps, but you don't need it.

That's not the case when you're making the game, though. Ideally, you'd have a QA team playtesting it and clear communication channels between them and development... but sometimes that doesn't happen (for whatever crazy reason, management has this nasty tendency to undervalue QA). If you make the development team playtest in addition to their other duties, they'll do a bad job because testing things is hard and not very fun.

Frankly, I'm amazed more companies don't do what Mantic did when they released Kings of War. They gave out Beta lists on their website and told us all to break it.

And boy howdy did we.

As such, by the time we got to 2.0 (the current game), we hammered the absolute bejeesus out of that game, though some things got a bit annoying as 2.0 went on, thus the yearly changes in Clash of Kings.

Basically, GW sort of, but not really, did this with Sisters. It's just they were really bad about how they did it. What helped Mantic was that they have a Forum of their own and a Rules Committee made up of a fair mix of people (including many TOs) that don't work for Mantic. Also, all Kings of War tournaments use the same rules, or if they don't, don't count when we're talking about balance.

Basically Mantic stole a lot of the old guard who knew what they were doing and the new guys have no real way to pressure management into listening to them.

[Avaris]

Frankly, I'm amazed more companies don't do what Mantic did when they released Kings of War. They gave out Beta lists on their website and told us all to break it.

And boy howdy did we.

As such, by the time we got to 2.0 (the current game), we hammered the absolute bejeesus out of that game, though some things got a bit annoying as 2.0 went on, thus the yearly changes in Clash of Kings.

Basically, GW sort of, but not really, did this with Sisters. It's just they were really bad about how they did it. What helped Mantic was that they have a Forum of their own and a Rules Committee made up of a fair mix of people (including many TOs) that don't work for Mantic. Also, all Kings of War tournaments use the same rules, or if they don't, don't count when we're talking about balance.

Basically Mantic stole a lot of the old guard who knew what they were doing and the new guys have no real way to pressure management into listening to them.

I really wish GW did this, but they have such an institutional mindset of secrecy that they work under. Woe betide putting anything out there that is not in a ‘finished’ state: everything must be perfect when it goes out. They at least get outside playtesters now, but that’s a drop in the ocean

There are obvious reasons why they don’t of course, chiefly that if they start putting out rules in this way they would be less able to sell the rules. But this is why they need to change their rules distribution model: a subscription based app, which included clearly marked beta rules that they wanted to test, could be really good.

[LansXero]

Privateer did that and the CID is at the top of most people's reasons to quit the game.

Its less about community input, more about quality work from paid professionals. You dont need to learn a game you yourself have made; who are you going to learn it from? you're the foremost authority on something that came from yourself!

While the horrendous writing - printing lead times do throw a wrench in the works, its all being developed by the same team, so even if something is still in development it should influence the design of things that are being worked on but slated for a later release. If they had a sane process of course which we know they dont.

[Selpharia]

I do get the sentiment, but I kinda always assume that when people worship a deity the assumed gender of said deity doesn't matter so much as the aspect (unless that aspect is like masculinity/femininity, or something). Unless we're talking about the Greeks, because Zeus.

Either way, Sylvaneth/Wanderers might(?) be a better example then, as they worship Allarielle, though they are not purely female as a faction. Do trees have genders? I guess some of the Revenant spirits look that way.


I actually have the Daughters as well, though I emphasize the snakes who are more Morathi-aligned. With Sisters you have the extra gender dynamics of the Imperial Creed with parallels to real-world subjugation of women makes it harder, for me at least, to make the case about a god’s aspect. I mean, my Custodes explicitly worship the Emperor in Her feminine aspect, so I’m not super militant about it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Privateer did that and the CID is at the top of most people's reasons to quit the game.

Its less about community input, more about quality work from paid professionals. You dont need to learn a game you yourself have made; who are you going to learn it from? you're the foremost authority on something that came from yourself!

It is at this time that I will point out that every author needs an editor, because what one intends and what one writes down are often two entirely different things and the writer will rarely notice that.

[Avaris]

It is at this time that I will point out that every author needs an editor, because what one intends and what one writes down are often two entirely different things and the writer will rarely notice that.

I think, historically, this has been the core of GW’s problems. Rulebooks were typically written by one person, and I’m not sure if there was any sort of editing process. And even if there was, how much did it focus on rules content?

I suspect there may be better coherency now; look at AoS, which has an established way of writing each rule so that they check for consistency between similar mechanics. But I wouldn’t be surprised if the editing/checking process was much more a system of peer review rather than a specific, seperate job with a different set of skills.

[Cheesegear]

Rulebooks were typically written by one person...

They're written, now, by two or three people, and there are still glaring problems. One of the main issues being that it isn't the same group of 2-3 people writing each book, which is why there are massive balance issues. Because 'we'll fix it later', because the most important part of selling a product, is getting it to market as fast as possible. This means that points costs and certain Stratagems are totally b0rked because nothing is play-tested adequately.

inb4; 'At least it's out, right.' Look. No-one wants to go back to 9 years between Codecies. That's clearly never going to happen again. What most people want is:
a) Maybe two or three months playtime on a Codex before it's sent to print. Currently, as per the Ministorum Sororitas rollout, we know it's less than one month of R&D.
b) Maybe, if people are waiting a long time between Codecies or releases, you could shart out an Index version of the Codex, for free, or put a few updates into White Dwarf, just to tide people over.

Now that all Codecies are out, and ITC has clear tournament data (regardless of whether or not it's based on 'the real game', or not...Kill Points are Kill Points). We should never have an unbalanced or underwhelming Codex ever again.


and I’m not sure if there was any sort of editing process.

Writer 1: Does this look okay?
Writer 2: I haven't played with this Faction in seven months. I have no idea at all what I'm doing...So...I think so?
Writer 3: Both of you just shut up. We'll patch it later in six months, the fanbois and apologists will love it anyway. Does this Stratagem sound right to you?
Writer 1: I have no time for that, I haven't even written the Sub-Faction Traits yet and this **** is due tomorrow.


the editing/checking process was much more a system of peer review...

Not even peer review. It's partner review. The guy who is editing you, is working on the project with you. If neither of you know what you're doing, then the 'review process' is hardly going to be accurate.

"This project is full of flaws and inconsistencies."
Well, the guy responsible for peer reviewing and/or editing it, worked on it with us, and he said it was fine.
"...So, you get to peer review yourselves?"
Yeah. Nobody has any time to not be working on their own projects because our overlords are demanding a product every. Single. Month.

[Wraith]

Yeah no, whatever they do on their fun time should have no bearing on what they put out for sale.

I'm not at all suggesting that the writers not be allowed to play their own armies when they're not at work. But when they ARE at work and they're being paid to write a Codex, they need to put that bias aside and learn how to play the army that they're writing for, and how it should fit into the wider meta - not just take a guess based off reading other forces and altering what they know about their 'pet' army based on assumptions and heresay.


This isnt some clubhouse, they're supposed to be professionals doing a paid job for a company.

My point, in a nutshell. Robbin Cruddance was a professional writer and gaming developer PAID to write a version of Codex Tyranids that people wanted to buy, but he didn't because.... well, I can only guess at the specific reasons, but I can make a guess that he didn't do enough research into a subject that he didnt understand, and I know he hasn't been asked to write much since.

[LansXero]

Everyone is glossing over the fact that unpaid fans who have no monetary reason to care about most factions can still math away how things are broken or not. Familiarity / playtest would do away with the finicky, hard-to-catch stuff, sure, but many point costs and other errors show a fundamental lack of understanding of the numbers involved, which are not faction or model specific.


our overlords are demanding a product every. Single. Month.
So? Whats the problem here? A whole month for iterative design with plenty to build from. Its a JOB, its not supposed to be about what tickles your fancy or about being inspired. Hell a regular codex a month would come out to what, 4 pages a day? 1/4 of those are stock fotos; another huge portion is fluff you can crib off black library or lexicanum (minus new developments); grab a white dwarf for the heraldry and painting portion and what you're really doing for a whole month is stretching an excel sheet into several pages worth of 'units'. SO. HARD-