How to use these rule changes to play the most fun "underpowered" Class CHaracter

[GrayDeath]

Well, its happened. My Brother is actually doing his first Campaign as a DM.

Now he is not very experienced and wants to avoid too many option paralysis both for himself and us flooding him with too much flexibility.

So he limits us to either Initiators, max Level 4 Casters or totally mundane CLasses.

BUT: He gives each Character Fast healing 2+1/2 HD, 46pts Pointbuy, Pathfinders Feat Progression and allows us to use either a Race or template of up to LA +3 for free.


Now I havent played a paladin for ages (outside testing my own version, which would add too many options^^) and decided to go with one under above limitations. Using the PAthfinder Paladin btw.

What Race/Templates would you suggest, and why?
(Half Celestial is out for "too obvious" Reasons^^)

Addendum: Starting Level is 5, and we are allowed to use MORE LA, just that it then counts for the Characters, as usual.
And we expect to level quickly and to around Level 12/13ish.

Addendum 2: Racial HD (unless Dragon) are flatout nono.

[AvatarVecna]

Asking for clarification: are you playing PF with 3.5 material allowed, or are you playing 3.5 with a few PF mechanics brought in?

EDIT: Also is there a general approach to how overlapping ACFs/archetypes are being handled?

[GrayDeath]

Full 3.P/PF.5, but where its easier or simply "better" (CMD for example, Favoured Class etc) Pathfinder.

If in doubt, assume POF Base and 3.5 add on.


Overlapping Archetypes....I frankly dont know. Suggest away, ideally with an alternative, and once I speak with my brother, Ill ask.

Thanks ina dvance.

[AvatarVecna]

If I was going to suggest a template, it'd probably be Telthor (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/telthor.shtml). It's basically Eberron's "Deathless", except WotC didn't wanna imply that these spirits who've yet to pass on deserved all the negative connotations associated with undead in general/ghosts in specific.

You target Touch AC, but can't use Str-based damage boosts (like Power Attack), so this will keep your smites as your primary source of damage...and you'll hit with them reliably. Being a reliable source of damage will make it easier for your DM to get an idea of how you'll perform in combat. Incorporeal fey with leveling Fast Healing will be absurdly difficult to hurt, is immune to low-level Humanoid-only spells outright, and is the wrong type to be affected by the usual tactics for dealing with an incorporeal creature (since most of those are more "anti-undead" tactics than "anti-incorporeal"). And if your DM ever wants to really keep you out, he can deploy antimagic in the walls to keep ghosts like you in their lane. You have a natural fly speed, but it's at normal speed so it's more an improvement to your mobility's versatility than its power, if it makes sense to think of it that way. You have telepathy, bypassing the language barrier of anybody nearby so you can at least attempt to use face skills to your party's advantage. And finally, the big downside of Telthor (the Damage Over Time effect outside your lodge) is undone by the fast healing your DM's given you.

All for just LA +2. You should probably be a human, since it's Rashemen-specific, but there's probably a flavorful LA +1 template you could throw on.

Maybe PF's Advanced template, if your DM allows. Advanced Human, 46 point-buy, and 5 stats to worry about will make you quite the paragon. Heck, if you're using PF Human instead of 3.5 Human, you could start the game at "lvl 1" with -/20/20/20/20/20 for attributes.

Or if you're wanting to play into the "berserker lodge" aspect of the telthor origins, you could use the Feral template from Savage Species to turn your paladin into a "noble savage spirit guide" kinda character - not a typical paladin by any stretch, but certainly serviceable, and getting pounce alongside PF Paladin smite sounds pretty solid.

Alternatively, if you're wanting to play into more typical paladin stuff, see if you can convince them to let you play with Exalted stuff - specifically Vow Of Poverty and the Saint template. Yes, the former isn't really great in most games, but you've already got a fly speed and solid defenses, and you're not losing out on high-level magic because everybody's being more limited than that. Vow Of Poverty gives access to some very solid number boosting, while keeping items and options simple enough that it's not gonna make things hard for your DM to keep track of. Meanwhile, Saint is probably one of the best templates in the game, and is only slightly worse in this case because the DM gave you existing fast healing...although maybe he'll let them stack? He probably shouldn't, though. That'd get ridiculous, and it's not like Saint is awful if you lose the Fast Healing.

As far as feats go...if you're keeping your casting, Battle Blessing and Unsanctioned Knowledge are pretty solid, and combine well with Mystic Fire Knight ACF. That ACF downgrades your HD to d8s (less important for an incorporeal creature), trades your Turn Undead feature for extra spell slots, trades Cure Disease for a dispelling strike attack, and upgrades your smites to suppress casters hit by them. That last one is particularly interesting with this setup, because while in 3.5 a smite was a single attempt and you lost or gained benefits depending on the attack roll, not only are you very likely to hit (because you're targeting Touch AC with +Cha to-hit), but also because PF smite is more of a minute-long buff than a single powerful attack. If you're not going the Telthor route, Power Attack and all its usual followups are pretty nice; Shock Trooper will be pretty powerful if you end up going with Feral.

[liquidformat]

for races Goliath or Aasimar with saint template from BoED. Saint template is pretty amazing and powerful it is a great choice because it gives you higher mental stats and some nice bonuses not to mention it goes well with paladin feel. Assimar is a good choice if you want some extra oomph to your mental stats but with saint template Goliath with its physical bonuses is probably the better choice.

Were you just interested in race/template choices or anything else too?

[GrayDeath]

@ Avatar Vecna: Sounds interesting, but dont have Telthor that stupid Rule of needing to stay within a certain range or suffering maluses? DOnt have the book but I seem to remember something like that.

Still, Semi Ghost Paladin sounds very interesting.

@ Liquidformat. I intend to avoid the too obvious route of Aasimar/Half Celestial. And yeah, more than just Templates if possible, but pure Template/Race Suggestions are also fine!

Thanks.

[Particle_Man]

Hmmm . . . for that I would have gone for Wyrmling Copper Dragon with the Dark Creature template, myself, but that would use up all 5 levels so you would have had to go for paladin in play. Also, it may not have fitted what you wanted.

[AvatarVecna]

@ Avatar Vecna: Sounds interesting, but dont have Telthor that stupid Rule of needing to stay within a certain range or suffering maluses? DOnt have the book but I seem to remember something like that.

Still, Semi Ghost Paladin sounds very interesting.

Telthor have the following ability:


Bound to the Land (Su): A telthor is tied to the place it guards and is weakened if it moves more than 1 mile from that place. Outside of this area, it takes 1 point of damage every minute. This damage ends immediately if it enters its home area again. Telthors can sense the boundaries of their territory and normally do not leave them except to warn others of danger. Rashemen legends tell of telthors that traveled miles to warn the hathrans of an invasion and then died from the pain of separation before they could be healed.

However, this damage can (judging by the last line) explicitly be healed, so while most Telthors will have trouble adventuring, one with built-in fast healing won't even barely notice that Damage Over Time - it's just too little damage too slowly. I've found no other reference to a mechanical consequence for leaving your guardian area, so I can assume that whatever the fluff may be for wandering far afield, it is survivable even with Fast Healing 1.

[Troacctid]

The Race and Template (https://docs.google.com/document/d/162mLgTiBJ4et4yFkZRoBAZzb0fW8vRaC1gR4YolKGiE/edit#) section of my Warlockopedia has a lot of generically good templates in it; it should be useful for any character, even if you're not a warlock. Although I must say, taking advantage of the fast healing to avoid the telthor's drawback is very clever.

[GrayDeath]

True.

My Brother gave a careful "if you arer sure for the Telthor Plan.

But since I am not aiming to cause problems, a version with a liottle less on the Immunity Side would also be appreciated.

Also if VMC and Archetypes only affect the same thing, they dont work. Neither do they if they remove the smae thing. otherwise, even if there is small overlap, they are A OK.

Kinda like the concept though. ^^

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Are you using Pathfinder's LA = CR, or 3.5 LA/ECL?

If using Pathfinder's version, make something like a Dragonkin from the Draconomicon. That's only CR 3 (zero with the free +3 LA) but has 7 HD of Monstrous Humanoid (effectively 7 levels of Fighter with no class features and good Reflex and Will saves instead of Fort). Starting out at Paladin 5, you'll effectively be a 12th level character, plus being large size with natural flight, multiple natural weapon attacks, an absurd natural armor bonus, etc.

[GrayDeath]

Using classic LA/CR, but with room to argue for reductions if truly obvious.

And HD from other sources than Class/Race that you continue to progress (like for example Dragons) are flatout out. WIlla dd that to the OP.

[Maat Mons]

Well, I was trying to find you a high-Cha race to use that LA on, but I didn't have much luck. The best I got was Nixie, with +8 Cha. And the only other noteworthy one I found was Half-Nymph template, with +4 Cha.

Are you using the Pathfinder rule that says Undead gain Cha to HP the same way living creatures get Con to HP? If so, an undead Paladin would have some great Charisma synergy. And maybe the DM would apply the same rule to Deathless. (I don't think Pathfinder natively has Deathless, but I could be wrong.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A variant Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) could get up to +8 Cha, along with bonuses to other stats adding up to +8 more, and a bunch of other benefits for a +4 LA (net +1 with the three free). Put it on a base creature that has a Cha bonus and you're looking at +10 or more. Find a huge size fiend that has Cha as its highest stat, and that also comes with a size increase (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases).

[Crake]

If you want something fun that I think fits well into the spirit of the rules you're playing, the tome dragon (from dragon 343) has 3 dragon RHD (which your DM said he allowed), and a caster level of 3 (within the 4CL that your DM allowed), and an LA of 5 (3 of which are free, and the other 2 which get added onto the RHD for a final level of 5). Since sorcerer casting only gets 1st level spells at level 3, I'd recommend using the spellhoarding variant (from dragon 313) which would allow you to cast as a wizard instead, gaining 2nd level spells, and I would suggest loredrake, but that'd bring your caster level up to 5, which is over the CL limit of 4, so that's a no-go.

After you gain a couple of levels in wizard to get your CL up to 5 (assuming the DM's limit of max CL 4 only applies to character creation), you can pick up the alternate form feat from dragons of eberron, which would allow you to have a humanoid form to blend into RP a bit more easily.

[GrayDeath]

OK, I decided to go for the "Advanced" Telthor Paladin, with 20ies in Dex, Con and Wis, 16 in Int and 22 in Charisma at Level 1.

We are still kind of debating if the Fire Knight ACF fits the theme, but even if not, should be a very nice and (unusual for Paladins) flexible Face/Puncher. ^^

Thank you all for your suggestions!