Upscaling shillellagh and magic stone

[diplomancer]

Shillellagh and magical stone are two cantrips that, while they see some use in the first tier, lose steam later because they don't scale. Would they be too powerful if they scaled, either by adding 1d8 (or 1d6 for magic stone) per tier or, alternatively, by letting you affect more than one staff or stone, that you could then lend to someone else to use?

[Gignere]

Shillellagh and magical stone are two cantrips that, while they see some use in the first tier, lose steam later because they don't scale. Would they be too powerful if they scaled, either by adding 1d8 (or 1d6 for magic stone) per tier or, alternatively, by letting you affect more than one staff or stone, that you could then lend to someone else to use?

They scale but with attacks. If you scaled either what’s to stop fighter from swinging Shillelagh 4x for 4d8 damage a hit. Magic Stone already can be given to someone else to use.

[diplomancer]

They scale but with attacks. If you scaled either what’s to stop fighter from swinging Shillelagh 4x for 4d8 damage a hit. Magic Stone already can be given to someone else to use.

Though that problem could be solved by either letting it affect one more staff or stone per tier (so, 2 staffs at tier 2, and so forth, or 4 stones at tier 2, and so forth, which basically would only be useful for allies), or by letting them work like the SCAG cantrips.

[Emongnome777]

What if they only added a +1 / +2 / +3 bonus at the appropriate level?

[nickl_2000]

Though that problem could be solved by either letting it affect one more staff or stone per tier (so, 2 staffs at tier 2, and so forth, or 4 stones at tier 2, and so forth, which basically would only be useful for allies), or by letting them work like the SCAG cantrips.

Magic Stone already does 3 stones at a time... I don't see much harm in allowing a PC to make more magical as you get higher level.

As for Shillelagh, I'm with Gignere in that it doesn't need a boost. But if you really wanted something I may consider giving the shillelagh smaller boosts (tier 2 it has a thrown range of 20/60 and returns, tier 3 it does 1d10 damage, tier 4 it has reach). That still may be broken, I would have to see how it works in game first.

[jaappleton]

The cantrips work fine.

You just need more attacks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Shillellagh already has plenty of ways to power it up-- anything that makes weapon attacks better also makes it better. "Use your casting stat to make melee attacks" is useful from 1-20. It arguably gets MORE useful-- it's easy to start with a 14 or 16 in a secondary stat, but much harder to keep pace with ASIs.

Magic Stone, on the other hand, could stand to scale a bit, because it's ammunition-- the basic function is the same as Shillellagh, but with a limited number of "charges.". Given that making more attacks is one of the big ways weapons scale, affecting more stones at a higher level helps keep pace with expected ammunition consumption.

[Zhorn]

echoing what others have said already; shillelagh is fine as is and does not fall behind.

[diplomancer]

Shillelagh is Druid only. Yes, I know other classes can get it different ways (magical secrets, tome warlock, Nature Cleric dip, magic initiate feat). I think it is reasonable to suppose that it is intended to be used mostly by druids. And druids don't get extra attack.

Therefore, while being very good at tier 1, and still good at tier 2 (but about as good as other cantrips... slightly better damage but requiring one bonus action to activate it and without any added effect), it will fall behind other Druid cantrips in tiers 3 and 4. Thorn whip at tier 3 does more damage than shillelagh,with better range, with an added effect, with no need for a bonus action to activate it. With the cantrip flexibility of the new UA this is less of an issue, but I think the need for upscaling it somehow is there, since having a Druid only spell that is mostly useful for non-druids is a bit sad.

I see now that it should not upscale simply as other cantrips, exactly because classes with Extra Attack might get it, and it would be overpowered. But some sort of upscaling, even the simple +1,+2,+3 (to damage only) would keep it competitive at later levels.

What about Magic Stone? Would it be in line to upscale it at least with extra rocks per tier, or also with the +1,+2,+3 damage?

[Zhorn]

it will fall behind other Druid cantrips in tiers 3 and 4. Thorn whip at tier 3 does more damage than shillelagh,with better range, with an added effect, with no need for a bonus action to activate it. With the cantrip flexibility of the new UA this is less of an issue, but I think the need for upscaling it somehow is there, since having a Druid only spell that is mostly useful for non-druids is a bit sad.
Kind of an apples-to-oranges comparison you have going there. Thornwhip is an attack cantrip, where both Shillelagh and Magic Stones are not.
Attack cantrips scale by tier because they are using an action to compete with the Attack Action. Being a bonus action to cast, neither Shillelagh and Magic Stones block the attack action from being used, and are intended to be used in conjunction with the attack action to enhance it (or more accurately; the cantrip is enhancing the attack action).
True that druids get the least benefit out of those spells, as they are not designed to melee outside of wildshape, but that's a limitation of the class design and the spell lists, not a fault of the cantrips themselves.

Griping that a non-attack cantrip doesn't scale is missing the point of both what the cantrip is for, and why attack cantrips scale in the fiirst place.

[Addaran]

Magic stones is considered a bad spell by most. Need to continously cast is if you want to supply your friends or just one fighter. I'd let it affect 3, then 6, 9, 12 stones when cantrips normaly boost.

Shillelagh is fine as is. Some builds already use it as a main part. It shouldn't be compared to other damage cantrip cause it isn't one. It's a buff cantrip. It last 10 rounds, it's not a one shot deal. The fact that it needs a bonus action to activate is a pro, unlike thorn whips where it's normal action.

Discounting the nature cleric, tome warlock is an error. As well as feats and multiclass, since most games and AL use them.

[Gignere]

Shillelagh is Druid only. Yes, I know other classes can get it different ways (magical secrets, tome warlock, Nature Cleric dip, magic initiate feat). I think it is reasonable to suppose that it is intended to be used mostly by druids. And druids don't get extra attack.

Therefore, while being very good at tier 1, and still good at tier 2 (but about as good as other cantrips... slightly better damage but requiring one bonus action to activate it and without any added effect), it will fall behind other Druid cantrips in tiers 3 and 4. Thorn whip at tier 3 does more damage than shillelagh,with better range, with an added effect, with no need for a bonus action to activate it. With the cantrip flexibility of the new UA this is less of an issue, but I think the need for upscaling it somehow is there, since having a Druid only spell that is mostly useful for non-druids is a bit sad.

I see now that it should not upscale simply as other cantrips, exactly because classes with Extra Attack might get it, and it would be overpowered. But some sort of upscaling, even the simple +1,+2,+3 (to damage only) would keep it competitive at later levels.

What about Magic Stone? Would it be in line to upscale it at least with extra rocks per tier, or also with the +1,+2,+3 damage?

Who cares about cantrips by tier 2+ druids have plenty of spell slots. Not sure why you feel there is a need to fix a cantrip that druids shouldn’t be using beyond tier 1 except in the most inconsequential encounters. Druids are by far not a class that is weak even if they don’t know shillelagh or magic stone.

[stoutstien]

Magic stones is considered a bad spell by most. Need to continously cast is if you want to supply your friends or just one fighter. I'd let it affect 3, then 6, 9, 12 stones when cantrips normaly boost.

Shillelagh is fine as is. Some builds already use it as a main part. It shouldn't be compared to other damage cantrip cause it isn't one. It's a buff cantrip. It last 10 rounds, it's not a one shot deal. The fact that it needs a bonus action to activate is a pro, unlike thorn whips where it's normal action.

Discounting the nature cleric, tome warlock is an error. As well as feats and multiclass, since most games and AL use them.

Magic stone is nitche, not bad. Anyone who uses a lot of minions can get alot of mileage out of it because it's both magical damage and uses your caster stat vs the uses normal attack modifier. Summoned apes, skeletons, tiny servant, or even a few commoner can make it go from a weak cantrip to one of the strongest.

[Yakk]

Shillelagh: When you reach level 8 in the class you cast Shillelagh from, you can attack twice instead of once when you use the attack action with the Shillelagh.

This leaves it alone for the "dip" "I want to attack with wisdom/charisma", but gives the "natural" users a bit of a boost.

[Chaosticket]

Oh and I would like those spells to get better, sure. My Druid wants more power.

Shillellagh is a low level crutch for the Druid, and its great on that. Make a Druid SAD with just 20 Wisdom for Skills, Spells, Attack, and Damage. Now you want add even more damage?

The 5e Developers were very careful to avoid "Druid-zilla" so the bad attack cantrips were on purpose.

Create Bonfire from Xanthar's Guide to Everything is the attack Cantrip that Druid's really want. Its the equivalent of Cleric's Sacred Flame, but possibly better because the Bonfire stays because you set things on fire. Setup a Firestorm, one square at a time.

[Gignere]

Shillelagh: When you reach level 8 in the class you cast Shillelagh from, you can attack twice instead of once when you use the attack action with the Shillelagh.

This leaves it alone for the "dip" "I want to attack with wisdom/charisma", but gives the "natural" users a bit of a boost.

This is crazy broken, you just basically gifted extra attack to any class that picks up shillelagh.

[Mr Adventurer]

Oh and I would like those spells to get better, sure. My Druid wants more power.

Shillellagh is a low level crutch for the Druid, and its great on that. Make a Druid SAD with just 20 Wisdom for Skills, Spells, Attack, and Damage. Now you want add even more damage?

The 5e Developers were very careful to avoid "Druid-zilla" so the bad attack cantrips were on purpose.

Create Bonfire from Xanthar's Guide to Everything is the attack Cantrip that Druid's really want. Its the equivalent of Cleric's Sacred Flame, but possibly better because the Bonfire stays without Concentraton. Setup a Firestorm, one square at a time.

Bonfire does take concentration.

[JNAProductions]

This is crazy broken, you just basically gifted extra attack to any class that picks up shillelagh.

So... Druids?

Or Bards who take it with Magical Secrets?

Or Warlocks with the Book Of Secrets?

If it works via feats (so, if you take Magic Initiate (Druid) at 4th level on a Rogue, getting Extra Attack at 8) then... No, still not really broken, since Quarterstaves aren't finesse, and therefore you lose Sneak Attack.

What does this break?

[Monster Manuel]

Shillelagh is Druid only. Yes, I know other classes can get it different ways (magical secrets, tome warlock, Nature Cleric dip, magic initiate feat). I think it is reasonable to suppose that it is intended to be used mostly by druids. And druids don't get extra attack.


I agree that Shillelegh doesn't need to scale, since it is driven by number of attacks, but this IS a fair point. The cantrip is on the spell list of a class that is not equipped to use it past T1 (no extra attacks), which is kind of weird. The general rule of thumb is that multiclassing is an optional rule and things are not necessarily balanced with multiclassing in mind, but it appears that Shillelegh has actually been balanced with multiclassing in mind.

Shilleiligh is strong in a white room analysis, since it allows for SAD wisdom fighters. But in practice, it's not strong for the class that has it natively.

[Mr Adventurer]

I think Nature Clerics are the strongest contender in reply. But that's an edge case.

[diplomancer]

I think Nature Clerics are the strongest contender in reply. But that's an edge case.

Because, oddly enough, it scales for Nature Clerics. Which might be the answer, at least for shillelagh... once upon a turn (maybe once a round even, to avoid polearm master reaction attacks), you get to add one extra d8 at level 8, perhaps also two extra d8s at level 14.

[Blood of Gaea]

The only problem I have with Shillelagh is that bonus action cantrips keep you from casting a spell with your action, I homebrewed that from my table.

[cZak]

I too am disappointed in how (the iconic) shillelagh becomes irrelevant so quickly

How does it 'scale'?
It's better when the wielder has more attacks, but doesn't seem any better than a longsword and sub-par to a 'great', versatile or polearm if damage is your goal
I guess it doesn't take much for a fighter to dip druid or pick up Magic initiate, but is it worth it?

[Blood of Gaea]

I too am disappointed in how (the iconic) shillelagh becomes irrelevant so quickly

How does it 'scale'?
It's better when the wielder has more attacks, but doesn't seem any better than a longsword and sub-par to a 'great', versatile or polearm if damage is your goal
I guess it doesn't take much for a fighter to dip druid or pick up Magic initiate, but is it worth it?
It's not bad for a S&B fighter to pick up, you can grab 15 Str for heavy armor and then get to 20 Wis for your main weapon. That does a decent bit to shore up that save. And it works just fine with PAM.

Is that the best build? Maybe not, but it's certianly not terrible.

[HiveStriker]

Shillellagh and magical stone are two cantrips that, while they see some use in the first tier, lose steam later because they don't scale. Would they be too powerful if they scaled, either by adding 1d8 (or 1d6 for magic stone) per tier or, alternatively, by letting you affect more than one staff or stone, that you could then lend to someone else to use?
Magic Stone definitely needs a boost. Both in the fact that you affect only stones, and on the fact you can never have more than 3 stones at once ever.

I'd probably boost it like this.
Add 3 more "stones" affected per tier. Additionally, from level 11 onwards, you can enchant tips of regular ammunition provided that tip is in stone (still very niche anyways).

As for Shillelagh...
I don't really think it needs a boost since you'd usually pick it on a class that will have martial improvements, but if you really want it...
At level 5, weapon gains the versatile property with an associated d10 die.
At level 11, the effect lasts for duration even if you let go of the weapon (= others can use it). Effects still ends early on a recast even on a different weapon.
At level 17, while Shillelagh is active, you can use a bonus action on your turn to gain either of the following benefit:
- make a bonus action attack.
- increases reach by 5 feet until the start of your turn.
- assumes a defensive position that gives you a +2 bonus to AC at the cost of your remaining speed.

Reasons for this is to buff the cantrip for the one main class using it, Druid, while limiting the incentive and power crunch of martial classes that get several attacks like Fighters, Monks or Rangers.

[Damon_Tor]

Magic Stones is excellent if you have three skeletons or tiny servants who you can hand them off to. Any summons who are numerous and/or efficient to cast but don't have attacks that scale well go great with it.

If you increase the number of enchanted stones as the user gains levels, as some here suggest, you make this tactic stronger.

[Amechra]

Tomelocks with Shillelagh are basically fake Hexblades. They can sorta-kinda fake the whole Bladelock thing as well, especially if they also pick up the weapon cantrips.

[bid]

It's not bad for a S&B fighter to pick up
Erm. You need a free hand to cast VSM and another to hold the club.

[Hytheter]

The only problem I have with Shillelagh is that bonus action cantrips keep you from casting a spell with your action, I homebrewed that from my table.

I mean, there's a really easy solution to that: if you are planning to cast a spell with your action, don't use Shillelagh. Why would you? If you aren't about to make a melee attack you don't need it active.

[Gignere]

Erm. You need a free hand to cast VSM and another to hold the club.

The club is a part of the M so you can hold it and still do the S part of the casting.

[Zhorn]

I feel like this is all coming at this "problem" from the wrong angle.

You recognise that Shillelagh scales with more attacks, and that the actual problem is druids only get one attack.
Logical solution: a druid subclass that has a melee focused and grants an extra attack equivalent the same way Valor Bard or Thirsting Blade on a Warlock does.

[Blood of Gaea]

I mean, there's a really easy solution to that: if you are planning to cast a spell with your action, don't use Shillelagh. Why would you? If you aren't about to make a melee attack you don't need it active.
Gishes that use it can have trouble. Arcana Clerics for example basically have to give up on using Spiritual Weapon Round 2.

Ideally you would:

Round 1: Action (Spirit Guardians), Bonus Action (Shillelagh).
Round 2: Action (Booming Blade), Bonus Action (Spiritual Weapon).

Instead, you have to:

Round 1: Action (Spirit Guardians).
Round 2: Action (Booming Blade), Bonus Action (Shillelagh).

[Rara1212]

Add the clause, "while you have enchanted weapon in hand you can take an action to make single melee spell attack with it. On a hit it does 1d8 Magical Bludgeoning damage plus your spellcasting modifier damage. This attacks damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8)."

edit.
Or just add the clause "This weapon can only be used to make one attack per action. This attacks damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8)."
That makes it work on opportunity attacks, but not with the PAM bonus action attack(as that overrides any weapon used to do 1d4 dmg)

[HiveStriker]

Magic stone is nitche, not bad. Anyone who uses a lot of minions can get alot of mileage out of it because it's both magical damage and uses your caster stat vs the uses normal attack modifier. Summoned apes, skeletons, tiny servant, or even a few commoner can make it go from a weak cantrip to one of the strongest.


Magic Stones is excellent if you have three skeletons or tiny servants who you can hand them off to. Any summons who are numerous and/or efficient to cast but don't have attacks that scale well go great with it.

If you increase the number of enchanted stones as the user gains levels, as some here suggest, you make this tactic stronger.
And how is that supposed to work exactly?

With regular Magic Stone, the most you can give is *one* ammunition *per* minion.
So on first turn, all is well. But then?
The drawing / object interaction economy means that if you want those minions to continuously use your magical ammunition, they need to all stay within 30 feet from you, or more probably, within 15 feet (forth and back). Because the only way that can be done is by having each minion come and get its own ammunition for current turn.
This *works* but is extremely cumbersome tactics-wise.

I'd argue it's niche enough that we can afford to make it easier to pull. Even having 12 magic ammunition at level 17 does not feel extremely powerful: to give on PC, it just makes it easier at high level to pull off without dedicated magic weapon, and if you don't improve anything else, it forces PC to stay at an unusually short range for a ranged attacker.
To give on minions, it just gives a minor improvement over their regular accuracy since it completely replaces their weapon attack with a spell attack.

It's nice, nothing game-breaking really, just a facilitator.

[Damon_Tor]

And how is that supposed to work exactly?

With regular Magic Stone, the most you can give is *one* ammunition *per* minion.
So on first turn, all is well. But then?
The drawing / object interaction economy means that if you want those minions to continuously use your magical ammunition, they need to all stay within 30 feet from you, or more probably, within 15 feet (forth and back). Because the only way that can be done is by having each minion come and get its own ammunition for current turn.
This *works* but is extremely cumbersome tactics-wise.

I'd argue it's niche enough that we can afford to make it easier to pull. Even having 12 magic ammunition at level 17 does not feel extremely powerful: to give on PC, it just makes it easier at high level to pull off without dedicated magic weapon, and if you don't improve anything else, it forces PC to stay at an unusually short range for a ranged attacker.
To give on minions, it just gives a minor improvement over their regular accuracy since it completely replaces their weapon attack with a spell attack.

It's nice, nothing game-breaking really, just a facilitator.

With skeletons, having three skeletons standing shoulder-to-shoulder in front of you is a good way to give yourself cover anyway. It's not that much of an added burden on your tactically. If you're that worried about it though, you can always have your familiar produce your magic stones while you stand safely back.

Tiny servants aren't large enough to give you cover, but you're large enough to give them cover, and they can actually use you as a mount. Again, if staying within 30 feet of combat is a burden for you, just get your familiar to run this operation.

[HiveStriker]

With skeletons, having three skeletons standing shoulder-to-shoulder in front of you is a good way to give yourself cover anyway. It's not that much of an added burden on your tactically. If you're that worried about it though, you can always have your familiar produce your magic stones while you stand safely back.

Tiny servants aren't large enough to give you cover, but you're large enough to give them cover, and they can actually use you as a mount. Again, if staying within 30 feet of combat is a burden for you, just get your familiar to run this operation.
Hey, I get it. :)
Thanks for the examples of using them, didn't think of that, because as a Druid I tend to move around quite a lot.
I'd still be afraid they'd be quickly put out with an AOE blast if you are all clustered together, but it's one of those things where we could have very different experiences from one another.

Besides, Find Familiar and Undead are Wizard things... Not sure it's worth for one to invest into Magic Stone since it requires another stat. For a Necromancer possibly (like CHA for Warlock levels, also fits the fluff of a zombie army leader imo ^^).

[stoutstien]

Hey, I get it. :)
Thanks for the examples of using them, didn't think of that, because as a Druid I tend to move around quite a lot.
I'd still be afraid they'd be quickly put out with an AOE blast if you are all clustered together, but it's one of those things where we could have very different experiences from one another.

Besides, Find Familiar and Undead are Wizard things... Not sure it's worth for one to invest into Magic Stone since it requires another stat. For a Necromancer possibly (like CHA for Warlock levels, also fits the fluff of a zombie army leader imo ^^).

Magic stone is definitely a party dependent pick vs produce flame which is more about self-reliant damage.
Any spell that promotes teamwork is a good one in my book.

[Damon_Tor]

Besides, Find Familiar and Undead are Wizard things... Not sure it's worth for one to invest into Magic Stone since it requires another stat. For a Necromancer possibly (like CHA for Warlock levels, also fits the fluff of a zombie army leader imo ^^).

As of the UA, Druids can generate familiars for themselves as well with a use of wildshape. UA is UA, but that's a very popular feature that seems very likely to see release in... in whatever they're working on. Circle of Spores druids have Animate Dead on their spell list.

[stoutstien]

As of the UA, Druids can generate familiars for themselves as well with a use of wildshape. UA is UA, but that's a very popular feature that seems very likely to see release in... in whatever they're working on. Circle of Spores druids have Animate Dead on their spell list.

Spore is a solid shillelagh user also. Grab PaM and go to town. Even without extra attack they can lay down some hurt.

[nickl_2000]

Spore is a solid shillelagh user also. Grab PaM and go to town. Even without extra attack they can lay down some hurt.

How do you combine PAM with shillelagh? Does the bonus action attack do 1d8+wis or 1d4+wis?

[stoutstien]

How do you combine PAM with shillelagh? Does the bonus action attack do 1d8+wis or 1d4+wis?

1d8 +Wis. It's one of the big reasons not to buff it.

[nickl_2000]

1d8 +Wis. It's one of the big reasons not to buff it.

Yup, given that ruling PAM is almost a requirement :)

[diplomancer]

1d8 +Wis. It's one of the big reasons not to buff it.

Last time I saw Crawford's tweet on this he said 1d4. Though he's changed his rulings in the past, so he might have changed that one without my knowledge.

[Damon_Tor]

How do you combine PAM with shillelagh? Does the bonus action attack do 1d8+wis or 1d4+wis?

This is a matter of some debate. IMO: Specific overrides general. The spell shillelagh makes all your attacks with the target weapon deal 1d8 damage, but PAM makes one particular attack deal 1d4. As such, PAM is more specific than shillelagh and so it has precedence. So by my reading the bonus attack deals 1d4. But your DM may have a different opinion.

[nickl_2000]

Last time I saw Crawford's tweet on this he said 1d4. Though he's changed his rulings in the past, so he might have changed that one without my knowledge.


This is a matter of some debate. IMO: Specific overrides general. The spell shillelagh makes all your attacks with the target weapon deal 1d8 damage, but PAM makes one particular attack deal 1d4. As such, PAM is more specific than shillelagh and so it has precedence. So by my reading the bonus attack deals 1d4. But your DM may have a different opinion.

Good point, the real answer as usual is ask your DM :) and it can be left at that.

Sorry, that was a question that shouldn’t have been asked in this thread since it is likely to end up as thread hijacking.

[stoutstien]

Good point, the real answer as usual is ask your DM :) and it can be left at that.

Sorry, that was a question that shouldn’t have been asked in this thread since it is likely to end up as thread hijacking.

Not like ~2 damage a round is a big issue one way or the other.

[HiveStriker]

This is a matter of some debate. IMO: Specific overrides general. The spell shillelagh makes all your attacks with the target weapon deal 1d8 damage, but PAM makes one particular attack deal 1d4. As such, PAM is more specific than shillelagh and so it has precedence. So by my reading the bonus attack deals 1d4. But your DM may have a different opinion.
I always ruled that way as well, seemed the most logical.

Not like ~2 damage a round is a big issue one way or the other.
That too indeed. :)