What is the lowest level party, that can deal with Adult Blue?

[Pinjata]

As the title says. Adult blue dragon in an open field (not his lair) and is mainly using flyby&recharge breath tactics. Party is NOT prepared for this fight.(they do not know what kind of dragon will they fight) vs a standard fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard party.

At what level des the party get a decent chance of not being TPKd by this CR16 monster?

thanks :)

[nickl_2000]

How tactical and adaptable are the players?

[Ganryu]

So many Variables to that question. Had a party near one shot a Marilith(CR17) at lvl 5 (damn warlock...). Had a party near die to an equal CR creature before (granted... a certain sorcerer though they were helping by AoE's without considering crossfire.e..)

Sometimes, the dice are kind, sometimes they aren't. But honestly the dragon's breath attack will ensure its not nice more times than it is.

[Pinjata]

How tactical and adaptable are the players?
Let's say an average group. Not battle geniuses, but not bad either.

[JellyPooga]

As the title says. Adult blue dragon in an open field (not his lair) and is mainly using flyby&recharge breath tactics. Party is NOT prepared for this fight.(they do not know what kind of dragon will they fight) vs a standard fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard party.

At what level des the party get a decent chance of not being TPKd by this CR16 monster?

thanks :)

Level 1.

They run away in opposite directions, hide and hope for the best. Dragon is unlikely to get them all. If even one survives it's not a TPK. Wizard and Rogue stand best chance escaping death due to a) not wearing heavy armour and b) either having a spell to escape (e.g. expeditious retreat) or Expertise in Stealth.

Not, perhaps, the answer you were looking for, but it's the answer nonetheless.

[Pinjata]

Level 1.

They run away in opposite directions, hide and hope for the best. Dragon is unlikely to get them all. If even one survives it's not a TPK. Wizard and Rogue stand best chance escaping death due to a) not wearing heavy armour and b) either having a spell to escape (e.g. expeditious retreat) or Expertise in Stealth.

Not, perhaps, the answer you were looking for, but it's the answer nonetheless.

Ha ha it is :D

[stoutstien]

As the title says. Adult blue dragon in an open field (not his lair) and is mainly using flyby&recharge breath tactics. Party is NOT prepared for this fight.(they do not know what kind of dragon will they fight) vs a standard fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard party.

At what level des the party get a decent chance of not being TPKd by this CR16 monster?

thanks :)

What is the dragon doing there? A adult blue dragon isn't a mindless killing machine. This is especially true for blue dragons who prefer to mock and trick lesser being over just killing them.
The party just openly praising the dragon's power and obvious superiority could be enough.

[JackPhoenix]

Level 1.

They run away in opposite directions, hide and hope for the best. Dragon is unlikely to get them all. If even one survives it's not a TPK. Wizard and Rogue stand best chance escaping death due to a) not wearing heavy armour and b) either having a spell to escape (e.g. expeditious retreat) or Expertise in Stealth.

Not, perhaps, the answer you were looking for, but it's the answer nonetheless.

Offtopic, but: reminds me of the WoW back in the day. There used to be an ability, Divine Intervention, that placed a shield on a party member that made them invulnerable and removed them from combat for 5 minutes, at the cost of killing the casting paladin (though with no repair cost for death). Part of my job was making the decision to use DI on another healer when it was clear we're not gonna win a boss fight. It helped that as a paladin and healer, I was usually one of the last to die.

"It's not a wipe if there's someone left to ress us".

[JellyPooga]

The key factor here is going to be being able to weather the breath attack. This means being able to reliably make a DC:19 Dex Save for half and/or being able to take 66 damage to the face. This isn't going to happen much sooner than...let's say level 10 for at least the Wizard. If we're generous and say that the Cleric has the Nature Domain, we can probably bring that down some, but we're still looking at lvl.6 as a bottom line for that as well as enough HP, even with Resistance (whether from Nature Domain or Protection from Elements...not a spell I'd assume was prepared, if we're not praparing specifically to combat our dragon). That's just to survive the first breath attack.

Then there's offensive capability. We're looking at being able to at least drive off the dragon within, on average, three rounds (the time it takes to recharge that breath weapon). Unfortunately, with its burrow speed, the dragon can be functionally immune to both the Fighter and the Rogue if it retreats underground, so we need to be able to prevent it from doing that or we're only using half the party. If the Rogue is grapple focused with Str focus and Expertise in Athletics, he could theoretically grapple the dragon if Enlarged, but we're straying into "dragon-buster" prep levels there. More realistically, until the Wizard is playing with the likes of Forcecage or maybe as low as 5th level spells, there's not really any way to stop the dragon from kiting the party to death. That means we're back up to level 9 to even attempt to "win" in a straight fight...

...assuming that fighting is the only option. A Major Image of another dragon or similarly powerful creature might drive it off as being not worth the risk; possible from 5th lvl and because it's an Int check to disbelieve, as opposed to a Save, so Legendary Resistance doesn't apply and Adult Blue only has +3 to the check if it wastes an action to scrutinise it and doesn't physically interact with it. That's about the best scenario I can think of.

Sooo...lvl.5 maybe, but more like lvl.9 at the very lowest.

[Gignere]

The key factor here is going to be being able to weather the breath attack. This means being able to reliably make a DC:19 Dex Save for half and/or being able to take 66 damage to the face. This isn't going to happen much sooner than...let's say level 10 for at least the Wizard. If we're generous and say that the Cleric has the Nature Domain, we can probably bring that down some, but we're still looking at lvl.6 as a bottom line for that as well as enough HP, even with Resistance (whether from Nature Domain or Protection from Elements...not a spell I'd assume was prepared, if we're not praparing specifically to combat our dragon). That's just to survive the first breath attack.

Then there's offensive capability. We're looking at being able to at least drive off the dragon within, on average, three rounds (the time it takes to recharge that breath weapon). Unfortunately, with its burrow speed, the dragon can be functionally immune to both the Fighter and the Rogue if it retreats underground, so we need to be able to prevent it from doing that or we're only using half the party. If the Rogue is grapple focused with Str focus and Expertise in Athletics, he could theoretically grapple the dragon if Enlarged, but we're straying into "dragon-buster" prep levels there. More realistically, until the Wizard is playing with the likes of Forcecage or maybe as low as 5th level spells, there's not really any way to stop the dragon from kiting the party to death. That means we're back up to level 9 to even attempt to "win" in a straight fight...

...assuming that fighting is the only option. A Major Image of another dragon or similarly powerful creature might drive it off as being not worth the risk; possible from 5th lvl and because it's an Int check to disbelieve, as opposed to a Save, so Legendary Resistance doesn't apply and Adult Blue only has +3 to the check if it wastes an action to scrutinise it and doesn't physically interact with it. That's about the best scenario I can think of.

Sooo...lvl.5 maybe, but more like lvl.9 at the very lowest.

Well if the wizard knows what he is doing they can survive the breath attack much earlier than level 10. Absorb elements.

Also if the players can burn the legendary resistance they can if coupled with flight and or/teleport Tasha the blue dragon and potentially one shot it.m by making it fall.

[solidork]

I think you would have the most luck with several people using Sharpshooter and Longbows to actually be able to threaten a Dragon that is playing it smart and strafing.

[MaxWilson]

As the title says. Adult blue dragon in an open field (not his lair) and is mainly using flyby&recharge breath tactics. Party is NOT prepared for this fight.(they do not know what kind of dragon will they fight) vs a standard fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard party.

At what level des the party get a decent chance of not being TPKd by this CR16 monster?

thanks :)

I agree with JellyPooga, but I'll try to address the other question about "at what level is the party likely to kill the dragon?" I assume you're making some kind of adventure for publication.

I also assume that by "flyby" you are including strafing attacks on targets of opportunity as well as breath weapons: e.g. fly by and rake the wizard with your teeth and claws before flying off. (Wizard will get a weak opportunity attack on you but who cares?) Or, hover 15' over the wizard's head and beat him to death with your tail via legendary actions. Or if the party has cast some buff spells, fly off and wait for a minute until they fizzle out. Ideally there's some mix of these tactics to keep things unpredictable: maybe after killing the wizard you grab the body and fly off with it and then wait for the spells to come back before coming back and strafing with lightning breath, then back off for a few more minutes to let buff spells expire again, then come back with lightning breath + bite/claw/claw/tail attacks to kill another PC.

The problem here is that an iconic melee fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard party has crummy ranged capability, so the dragon's tactics are excellent against them. Dragons have good Perception so even the Rogue may have trouble doing sneak attack damage. I know I like to make fun of the DMG guidelines for being way too easy (they basically just assume you lock the monster and the PCs in a cage and hammer away until somebody dies), but in this case you're using excellent dragon tactics against poor player tactics so the DMG guidelines are probably reasonable: I probably wouldn't rate this as anything less than a 13th level challenge for that party, and even then there's a decent chance they'll lose. Mainly depends on the details of what spells the spellcasters have prepared (since they were expecting something else) and how good the Fighter is with ranged weapons, and how effectively the Rogue can bring their own talents to bear.

So yeah, personally I'd peg this as a 13th level challenge, in the sense that even an unprepared party of vanilla melee fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard will probably find it exciting but fair at 13th level. (I think it's doable as early at 7th level though for a party of e.g. Sharpshooter Fighter/Moon Druid/Bardlock/Necromancer, though again they would find it challenging but fair.)

[JellyPooga]

I think you would have the most luck with several people using Sharpshooter and Longbows to actually be able to threaten a Dragon that is playing it smart and strafing.

It has a burrow speed. No dice on the longbows unless you can keep it above ground.


Well if the wizard knows what he is doing they can survive the breath attack much earlier than level 10. Absorb elements.

You'll still want more than 34hp to survive a full blast, which is going to be around lvl.6, as I said.


Also if the players can burn the legendary resistance they can if coupled with flight and or/teleport Tasha the blue dragon and potentially one shot it.m by making it fall.

Is max damage from a fall still 20d6? Assuming it is, that's only 120hp on a max roll and it'd need to be 200ft up. You'd still need to deal about 100 damage to kill it and you'd have to be in range to cast Tasha's (60ft?), as well as burning it's legendaries...which if you're so low level that it doesn't have to worry too much, it may not even use until you threaten it with something worth its time.

[Gignere]

It has a burrow speed. No dice on the longbows unless you can keep it above ground.



You'll still want more than 34hp to survive a full blast, which is going to be around lvl.6, as I said.



Is max damage from a fall still 20d6? Assuming it is, that's only 120hp on a max roll and it'd need to be 200ft up. You'd still need to deal about 100 damage to kill it and you'd have to be in range to cast Tasha's (60ft?), as well as burning it's legendaries...which if you're so low level that it doesn't have to worry too much, it may not even use until you threaten it with something worth its time.

Not sure if there is a max but if I was DM and you can get it to fall from 600 feet (roughly maximum falling distance in 6 seconds) I’d probably rule it’s dead.

[16bearswutIdo]

With the open terrain and dragon's flyby/breath tactics... unless the players have something to restrain the dragon and/or restrict it from just flying away, their only chance of winning the fight is basically OHKOing it. So I'd say level 12ish to actually kill the dragon, lower to fend it off, and lower still to survive with no hope of victory.

[JellyPooga]

Not sure if there is a max but if I was DM and you can get it to fall from 600 feet (roughly maximum falling distance in 6 seconds) I’d probably rule it’s dead.

There's still the issue that a blue dragon that's kiting you with bresth attacks probably isn't flying. It's burrowing.

[MaxWilson]

There's still the issue that a blue dragon that's kiting you with bresth attacks probably isn't flying. It's burrowing.

Longbows may not let you kite a burrowing dragon, but they should prevent it from kiting you unless the DM insists on using the stupid vanilla RAW on Extra Attack not working on Readied Actions. (If the DM is using that RAW and also using hit-and-run monsters who do things like burrow, you'll want to play a Spell Sniper warlock instead, not just for dragons but for any kind of reaction counterfire including Wraiths, Banshees, hobgoblins lying prone except when they're actually taking a knee to fire on their own turns, etc. Playing a longbow archer in that campaign with that RAW would be just awful.)

As an aside: 5E burrowing is weird. Some monsters like Earth Elementals specifically note that they move through the earth without disturbing it; others like Umber Hulks and Purple Worms note that they leave a tunnel behind through solid rock; for everything else it's just kind of undefined. But if dragon burrowing works like gophers burrowing, it's not going be to be useful for kiting PCs because the PCs can just follow, and the dragon's only burrowing 30' per round anyway.

The best thing you can say about Blue Dragon burrowing in that case is that it's a lovely, lovely way to get foolish PCs to line up in a straight line for maximum breath weapon damage. (But PCs may or may not cooperate.)

[16bearswutIdo]

Burrowing would probably be used at the very start to get a surprise attack on the PCs, then it would take to the skies. If its an open field, there's no real reason for it to be burrowing versus just flying through the skies and strafing.

[JellyPooga]

Burrowing would probably be used at the very start to get a surprise attack on the PCs, then it would take to the skies. If its an open field, there's no real reason for it to be burrowing versus just flying through the skies and strafing.

:smallconfused: Well..."longbows" is a pretty good reason not to be flying around in plain sight...

[16bearswutIdo]

:smallconfused: Well..."longbows" is a pretty good reason not to be flying around in plain sight...

Two longbows in the hands of a (presumably) melee-oriented fighter and a (presumably) melee-oriented rogue isn't a huge threat. If the dragon burrows, it's making itself open to melee attacks as it only has a 30ft burrow speed and the text doesn't explicitly say it just melds in with the dirt. Being burrowed also hurts its ability to just flee if the fight isn't going its way. If its in an open field, it can just strafe around staying out of melee range and only dealing with non-optimized ranged attacks.

[JNAProductions]

Not sure if there is a max but if I was DM and you can get it to fall from 600 feet (roughly maximum falling distance in 6 seconds) I’d probably rule it’s dead.

There is a max. It's 20d6.

[Keravath]

The first question is how many of the characters make the save against the Dragon's frightful presence. Only two of the characters have proficiency in wisdom saves and even then a DC17 will only give about a 50/50 chance for the wizard to pass .. the cleric stands a slightly better chance.

The second question is spells. What spells and what levels do the cleric and wizard have prepared?

The third question is magic items. What does the party have available?

Essentially, there is no easy answer, no simple answer and no single correct answer. A level 20 party with the wrong spells, no magic items and poor rolls will be TPKed while a much lower level party with better spells and better luck could prevail.

[Gignere]

I would say the absolute minimum is probably level 5 party of amazing optimizers and fantastic players.

Level 9 would be the level I’d expect the fight to go either way. Level 5 spells are just that awesome.

By level 11+ the advantage goes to the party. Meaning barring terrible play, bad rolls I’d expect the party to prevail.

[Eldariel]

Level 9 brings Bigby's and Telekinesis, both of which can be leveraged against a Legendary Resist creature to great effect. Though there are other avenues of attack as well, but I'd say a 9th level party should be fine (the more spellcasters, the better of course; Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wiz has Fighter and Rogue kinda playing the second fiddle already but replace them with e.g. Druid and Bard and you should be fine).

[Teaguethebean]

I would say 9 as once you get wall of force it is over. No save and instantly held. Then the cleric cast spirit guardians and walks next to it. Though if you rule they don't go through the cleric casts Spiritual weapon inside of the wall and kills the dragon with the weapon. It would take a while but it would work.

[JackPhoenix]

I would say 9 as once you get wall of force it is over. No save and instantly held. Then the cleric cast spirit guardians and walks next to it. Though if you rule they don't go through the cleric casts Spiritual weapon inside of the wall and kills the dragon with the weapon. It would take a while but it would work.

Wall of Force is too small to enclose huge dragon. And cleric can't cast Spiritual Weapon (or anything else except Sacred Flame, which ignores cover by specific exception) through WoF, as it provides full cover.

[MaxWilson]

Wall of Force is too small to enclose huge dragon. And cleric can't cast Spiritual Weapon (or anything else except Sacred Flame, which ignores cover by specific exception) through WoF, as it provides full cover.

I agree on Spiritual Weapon/Total Cover.

I disagree on Sacred Flame: Sacred Flame says the target gains no benefit from cover for the saving throw, but that just puts it in the same category as spells targeting Wis/Int/etc. It doesn't change the rules in the Spellcasting section, such as A Clear Path to the Target:

A Clear Path to the Target
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover.

I also disagree on Wall of Force: a Huge dragon occupies a 15' x 15' space and can squeeze into a 10' x 10' space using Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces rules. Wall of Force can create a sphere 20' in diameter, which is clearly large enough to contain such a dragon.

(Yes, it's true that "Huge" is not very huge, but nobody ever said WotC had a firm grasp on how big a foot is.)

[apepi]

Level 1.

They run away in opposite directions, hide and hope for the best. Dragon is unlikely to get them all. If even one survives it's not a TPK. Wizard and Rogue stand best chance escaping death due to a) not wearing heavy armour and b) either having a spell to escape (e.g. expeditious retreat) or Expertise in Stealth.

Not, perhaps, the answer you were looking for, but it's the answer nonetheless.

Kobold Fight Club is telling me that it takes 76 levels ones to make an adult blue dragon to be hard.

[moonfly7]

Well, the DMG would have us believe 4 16th level PCs would find it a moderate challenge. But I've seen similare feats carried out by a party of 4 level 3s who didn't give a crap. It all depends on how lenient you as a DM are, and how strategic your players are. Since I know nothing about your table, I'm a say maybe level 5-7. But that's me being conservative, a stubborn, win-at-all-costs-never-retreat party could probably do it at 3 with no casualties. Mind you, that's with a life cleric. Expect some casualties unless someone has healing.
Edit: just saw that you said you have a standard party with cleric. I'd say they'd definitly be ready at 5-7.

[Kane0]

Level 1 if you're playing HotDQ :smallamused:

[JackPhoenix]

I also disagree on Wall of Force: a Huge dragon occupies a 15' x 15' space and can squeeze into a 10' x 10' space using Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces rules. Wall of Force can create a sphere 20' in diameter, which is clearly large enough to contain such a dragon.

That's derp on my part, for some reason, I thought huge creatures take 20' square.

[JellyPooga]

Kobold Fight Club is telling me that it takes 76 levels ones to make an adult blue dragon to be hard.

The challenge criteria was not, strictly speaking, for the party to win...it was to not TPK. Kobold Fight Clubs results may be misleading for that criteria.


Well, the DMG would have us believe 4 16th level PCs would find it a moderate challenge. But I've seen similare feats carried out by a party of 4 level 3s who didn't give a crap. It all depends on how lenient you as a DM are, and how strategic your players are. Since I know nothing about your table, I'm a say maybe level 5-7. But that's me being conservative, a stubborn, win-at-all-costs-never-retreat party could probably do it at 3 with no casualties. Mind you, that's with a life cleric. Expect some casualties unless someone has healing.
Edit: just saw that you said you have a standard party with cleric. I'd say they'd definitly be ready at 5-7.

Almost any lvl.3 party that is specifically not prepared to fight an adult blue will be toast. No dice will save you on this. At least one party member will at least hit 0hp on round one. It will be the Cleric (so no Healing Word to yo-yo party members). The party will not be able to kill the dragon before it gets another breath atrack in, at which point, a second PC will die. Next round, the dragon will probably land and mop up. Lvl.3 PCs simply don't have the HP to weather an adult dragons' attacks; tactics other than "run away" or "surrender" will not help.

Lvl.5-7 is not a conservative estimate...that's ambitious. Even a lvl.7 Hill Dwarf Cleric only has 8+(5x6)+35=73hp if he starts with Con 16 and uses his one ASI on Con too. Given that the party isn't building specifically to combat an adult blue dragon, it's a safe assumption that the Cleric will probably have more like 59-66hp...incidentally, just about low enough to be one-shot by the dragons breath. The Wizard and Rogue will both have lower HP totals. That's the high end of your conservative estimate. Realistically, for the party to win this fight with Tier 2 characters, they'll need whoever gets hit with that breath on round 1 to survive (bearing in mind that this may well include multiple PCs) and even for the Cleric (who likely has the 2nd highest HP of the party) to survive round 1, he needs to be at least level 8...or lucky. Then again, if you're relying on luck, you've already lost.

[MaxWilson]

Almost any lvl.3 party that is specifically not prepared to fight an adult blue will be toast. No dice will save you on this. At least one party member will at least hit 0hp on round one. It will be the Cleric (so no Healing Word to yo-yo party members). The party will not be able to kill the dragon before it gets another breath atrack in, at which point, a second PC will die. Next round, the dragon will probably land and mop up. Lvl.3 PCs simply don't have the HP to weather an adult dragons' attacks; tactics other than "run away" or "surrender" will not help.

Lvl.5-7 is not a conservative estimate...that's ambitious. Even a lvl.7 Hill Dwarf Cleric only has 8+(5x6)+35=73hp if he starts with Con 16 and uses his one ASI on Con too. Given that the party isn't building specifically to combat an adult blue dragon, it's a safe assumption that the Cleric will probably have more like 59-66hp...incidentally, just about low enough to be one-shot by the dragons breath. The Wizard and Rogue will both have lower HP totals. That's the high end of your conservative estimate. Realistically, for the party to win this fight with Tier 2 characters, they'll need whoever gets hit with that breath on round 1 to survive (bearing in mind that this may well include multiple PCs) and even for the Cleric (who likely has the 2nd highest HP of the party) to survive round 1, he needs to be at least level 8...or lucky. Then again, if you're relying on luck, you've already lost.

I agree. The original challenge was for a standard fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard party who is unaware of a dragon, and there is no way such a party at level 3 is going to defeat an adult blue dragon using strafing tactics as described upthread. Even if you go to more flexible parties and builds, level 7 is pushing it, and I simply don't believe it's doable before level 5 without advance preparation.

Can a level 3 party defeat a dragon? Sure! But it will involve advance preparation (e.g. getting defeated by the dragon, maybe with casualties, and then coming back and ambushing it instead of the other way around) and somehow tricking the dragon into fighting stupidly (e.g. threatening its hoard so it won't run away when it gets low on HP). Unprepared low-level party vs. adult blue dragon fighting smart = death sentence for one or more PCs.

RE: <<even for the Cleric (who likely has the 2nd highest HP of the party) to survive round 1, he needs to be at least level 8...or lucky>> Technically even a 5th level wizard has a good chance to survive lightning breath, thanks to Absorb Elements. ~66 HP of lightning, halved to ~33 HP by Absorb Elements, hits a wizard with ~22 HP... wizard takes 11 HP more than is needed to hit 0 HP, but his HP max is 22 HP so he doesn't die... Cleric can Healing Word the wizard back to 1 HP and he's back in the fight. But this gets much, much safer a few levels later when the wizard has enough HP to not die even when he's only at 1 HP before the blast.

This illustrates the principle: defenses matter more than the raw size of your HP dice. d6 + Absorb Elements is better than d8.

[JellyPooga]

RE: <<even for the Cleric (who likely has the 2nd highest HP of the party) to survive round 1, he needs to be at least level 8...or lucky>> Technically even a 5th level wizard has a good chance to survive lightning breath, thanks to Absorb Elements. ~66 HP of lightning, halved to ~33 HP by Absorb Elements, hits a wizard with ~22 HP... wizard takes 11 HP more than is needed to hit 0 HP, but his HP max is 22 HP so he doesn't die... Cleric can Healing Word the wizard back to 1 HP and he's back in the fight. But this gets much, much safer a few levels later when the wizard has enough HP to not die even when he's only at 1 HP before the blast.

This illustrates the principle: defenses matter more than the raw size of your HP dice. d6 + Absorb Elements is better than d8.

While this may be true, the Cleric doesn't have the same luxury of having resistance on a Reaction, unless they're a Nature Cleric. Cleric can't use Healing Word if he's down and he needs to be lvl.8(ish) to survive round 1. Yes, he could make his saving throw for half damage, but the odds are against.

I am, I should clarify, assuming zero prep time; i.e. the party doesn't have time to pre-buff, etc. before the combat starts and that the dragon can get into breath weapon range on round 1. I'm also assuming the dragon has the jump on the PCs. This, I think, is a safe assumption due to its burrow speed.

Thinking of which and slightly off topic...what happens if a burrowing creature burrows up underneath a character/party. In the case of a dragon, it isn't specified whether they leave pasaage, but in some cases (e.g. Purple Worm) it is, so does anyone finding themselves without a floor have to make a dex save to avoid falling or something? Can they even attempt a save if there's no adjacent space for them to dive to? Can the burrowing creature utilise other movement speeds once it has surfaced and if so, does it still count as "burrowing" whilst any of it is still underground, or does it use it's other speeds as soon as it surfaces?