Optimization Bear Totem Warrior vs Zealot [Archive]

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Expected

2019-11-27, 02:39 PM

JellyPooga

2019-11-27, 03:40 PM

prabe

2019-11-27, 03:48 PM

Expected

2019-11-27, 04:07 PM

A benefit to going Zealot is that the Cleric can Revivify me for free so I do not need to be afraid of death, just Disintegrate and Finger of Death.

AdAstra

2019-11-27, 04:36 PM

Since the PHB literally says, "You have resistance to all damage except psychic," I'm not sure what you mean here. While there are other barbarian paths that seem fun and/or interesting to play, Bear Totem seems so good to me that I'm tempted to think it's a mistake. I'll grant that since you already have resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage, you're only gaining damage to pretty much everything else, but that seems like a niggling point.

I’d imagine it’s because elemental damage is notably less common than the standard physical types in most cases. The Barbarian already has tons of HP, so usually things like control spells are a far greater threat to you than damage. This is aggravated by the fact that Barbs will typically be good at all three physical saves and mediocre-to-poor in all mental saves. The Zealot’s defensive ability is more widely applicable, and will still serve you well even against damage spells.

On the other hand, damage is damage, and radiant damage at that. There will never be an instance where killing your enemies dead won’t be valuable (interestingly, the Zealot’s rage bonus applies to all weapon attacks). IMO, it’s a good trade, but not a no-brainer like they claim. There's no obvious winner from a standpoint of optimization (though I have a noted preference for damage when using such a survivable platform).

prabe

2019-11-27, 05:14 PM

I’d imagine it’s because elemental damage is notably less common than the standard physical types in most cases. The Barbarian already has tons of HP, so usually things like control spells are a far greater threat to you than damage. This is aggravated by the fact that Barbs will typically be good at all three physical saves and mediocre-to-poor in all mental saves. The Zealot’s defensive ability is more widely applicable, and will still serve you well even against damage spells.

On the other hand, damage is damage, and radiant damage at that. There will never be an instance where killing your enemies dead won’t be valuable (interestingly, the Zealot’s rage bonus applies to all weapon attacks). IMO, it’s a good trade, but not a no-brainer like they claim. There's no obvious winner from a standpoint of optimization (though I have a noted preference for damage when using such a survivable platform).

There are certainly reasons to choose Zealot. I was just ... quibbling, I guess, with describing Bear Totem as a trap. I'd imagine utility would vary from campaign to campaign, based ont eh types of damage the characters were facing.

JellyPooga

2019-11-27, 05:21 PM

I’d imagine it’s because elemental damage is notably less common than the standard physical types in most cases.

This.

Resistance to non B/P/S is nice and all, but it simply doesn't come up often enough to be all that significant. On top of that, when resistance to non B/P/S would be significant, there are a slew of spells and other features available that you can use circumstantially rather than needing it always on. Especially when the opportunity cost is foregoing features that you will use literally every combat, such as the aforementioned Wolf Totem ability to grant advantage on attacks for your adjacent allies, or Eagle Totem which turns you into a cruise missile against enemy casters and the like. Bear Totem is far from overpowered; if anything, it's somewhat under the curve compared to other Totem abilities. It just looks good because the wording is sensationalist...

"Wow! Resistance to everything!?! Get me some of that!...no wait...I'm already resistant to most things and my buddy can help with the others when it counts, soooo...damn...I wasted a feature"

prabe

2019-11-27, 05:31 PM

This.

Resistance to non B/P/S is nice and all, but it simply doesn't come up often enough to be all that significant. On top of that, when resistance to non B/P/S would be significant, there are a slew of spells and other features available that you can use circumstantially rather than needing it always on. Especially when the opportunity cost is foregoing features that you will use literally every combat, such as the aforementioned Wolf Totem ability to grant advantage on attacks for your adjacent allies, or Eagle Totem which turns you into a cruise missile against enemy casters and the like. Bear Totem is far from overpowered; if anything, it's somewhat under the curve compared to other Totem abilities. It just looks good because the wording is sensationalist...

"Wow! Resistance to everything!?! Get me some of that!...no wait...I'm already resistant to most things and my buddy can help with the others when it counts, soooo...damn...I wasted a feature"

Seems to work shockingly well for my friend's character. Could be that the DM hasn't deployed anything to specifically target the barbarian's weaknesses, could be that the player rolled a truly nuts set of ability scores. Since for a time, he was the only melee combatant, Wolf wouldn't have worked so well, and so far he hasn't been pressed for mobility; he has, however, served as the party's primary hit point container.

MaxWilson

2019-11-27, 05:42 PM

Don't be fooled by Bear Totem; it's not "resistance to all damage except psychic", it's "you gain some additional resistances"...it's a ribbon compared to, say, Wolf Totem, which your melee Ranger buddy will love you for. Especially if your Cleric friend is at all up to snuff as the party buffer. Bear Totem is a trap.

Bear Totem resistance is most valuable when you don't know the stats of what you're facing, e.g. with a DM who likes to make up custom monsters, trying to decide whether or not to engage what might be a deadly foe and trying to decide whether to go Reckless. A regular Barbarian has to cross their fingers and pray that the enemy's damage is all physical--the first time that Barb meets e.g. a Narzugon or a Beholder, if he goes Reckless Attack he is going to be very sad and maybe dead. (Narzugon: 3x +10 for d12+5 (11) piercing and 3d10 (16) fire.) The Barbearian only winds up very sad and maybe dead occasionally, against things like Star Spawn Manglers. It's a simpler decision process.

Edit: I'm oversimplifying. A Barbearian still winds up very sad and maybe dead against enemies with strong ranged attacks, or against large numbers of weak creatures. What I should have said is that he only rarely winds up surprised, sad, and dead due to Rage unexpectedly not working.

JellyPooga

2019-11-27, 05:49 PM

Seems to work shockingly well for my friend's character.

The question is; how much damage has Bear Totem actually prevented for them? Follow-up question; how much damage did it need to prevent (i.e. that could habe been prevented by other means, e.g. Protection from Elements)? I'm willing to bet the answer to both is "not much".

Pex

2019-11-27, 06:08 PM

Don't be fooled by Bear Totem; it's not "resistance to all damage except psychic", it's "you gain some additional resistances"...it's a ribbon compared to, say, Wolf Totem, which your melee Ranger buddy will love you for. Especially if your Cleric friend is at all up to snuff as the party buffer. Bear Totem is a trap.

No it is not. You effectively double your hit points giving you staying power. You require less of your party's healing resources. You can afford friendly fire tactics if necessary, such as from a party member's Fireball when you're surrounded by bad guys.

The question is; how much damage has Bear Totem actually prevented for them? Follow-up question; how much damage did it need to prevent (i.e. that could habe been prevented by other means, e.g. Protection from Elements)? I'm willing to bet the answer to both is "not much".

The bear totem doesn't need them. Protection From Elements can be cast on someone else or not at all.

Flashkannon

2019-11-27, 06:17 PM

I've found Bear totem is quite useful - as someone in a homebrew campaign, with homebrew nonsense flying around, Bear totem saved me against the likes of pools of acid, pillars of flame, a thousand kobolds with Magic Missile, walls of ice, temples with death energy seeping out from behind every rock, you name it, I had to fight it.

On the other hand, Zealot Barbarian has several really great features - the radiant/necrotic is a really nice bonus, but the real winner here is Rage After Death. I can't think of literally any scenario where any amount of attackers could fell you with damage, short of dealing enough damage in one hit to kill you outright at 0 HP (Which, if you're a highly competent barbarian with at least 18 Con, should be a feat even the Tarrasque can't dream of, given that your maximum HP should be 159, if you've been taking the average, or more if you're lucky.)

So yeah, in the end, I think Zealot Barbarian is better, at least in tier 3-4 play

Merudo

2019-11-27, 06:17 PM

I think it depends a lot on the campaign, too.

You can expect necrotic damage in Curse of Strahd, poison in Tomb of Annihilation, fire in Descent Into Avernus, etc. but mostly melee attacks in Lost Mine of Phandelver and Storm King's Thunder.

JellyPooga

2019-11-27, 06:20 PM

No it is not. You effectively double your hit points giving you staying power. You require less of your party's healing resources. You can afford friendly fire tactics if necessary, such as from a party member's Fireball when you're surrounded by bad guys.
The bolded statement is simply not true. Yes, it doubles your HP against non-B/P/S, but that's also assuming you don"t have resistance to any non-B/P/S already, such as if you're a Dwarf, for instance, or access to a spell or feature that grants it. Non-B/P/S damage also accounts for a small percentage of the damage you"ll take as a Barbarian.

As for playing the friendly fire game, you're better off being a Rogue or Monk and taking zero damage from Fireball. Yes, you could do it in a pinch, but it's going to be a niche use because taking any damage is generally a bad idea, let alone voluntarily.

The bear totem doesn't need them. Protection From Elements can be cast on someone else or not at all.

No, but they exist and are common, making Bear Totem something easy to replicate, unlike granting advantage to adjacent allies foe just standing there or being able to Bonus Action Dash.

zinycor

2019-11-27, 06:29 PM

I have played both, and I believe that Zealot would be a better option for you, since the other players should be able to heal you if needed.

dragoeniex

2019-11-27, 06:58 PM

At level 5 and up, your Cleric can choose to prepare a spell (Revivify) that will res you for free. If they can survive the battle after you've gone down, they can pick you right back up.

I'd go Zealot here. You won't be aiming to die, but given your description of the team, this could turn your taking-the-bullet moments into a running gag instead of a running frustration.

MaxWilson

2019-11-27, 07:04 PM

At level 5 and up, your Cleric can choose to prepare a spell (Revivify) that will res you for free. If they can survive the battle after you've gone down, they can pick you right back up.

Provided, that is, that they haven't already spent all of their Revivify spell slots on the melee ranger with abysmal Con. : - )

No, but they exist and are common, making Bear Totem something easy to replicate, unlike granting advantage to adjacent allies foe just standing there or being able to Bonus Action Dash.

You can replicate resistance to fire/cold/poison/necrotic/force/acid/radiant damage with spells and magic items, yes. But you can replicate advantage to adjacent allies with tons of things including just plain Shoving with an attack, which Barbarians get advantage on.

Really though I think buffing those allies is the bard's job: Bardic Inspiration + Faerie Fire. If the bard refuses to do that job, let the bard and the ranger hash it out between themselves. This Barbarian isn't being built to do everything, just inflict and take damage.

Pex

2019-11-27, 08:22 PM

The bolded statement is simply not true. Yes, it doubles your HP against non-B/P/S, but that's also assuming you don"t have resistance to any non-B/P/S already, such as if you're a Dwarf, for instance, or access to a spell or feature that grants it. Non-B/P/S damage also accounts for a small percentage of the damage you"ll take as a Barbarian.

As for playing the friendly fire game, you're better off being a Rogue or Monk and taking zero damage from Fireball. Yes, you could do it in a pinch, but it's going to be a niche use because taking any damage is generally a bad idea, let alone voluntarily.

No, but they exist and are common, making Bear Totem something easy to replicate, unlike granting advantage to adjacent allies foe just standing there or being able to Bonus Action Dash.

But you might not be a dwarf, and that's only for poison. If you're raging you're not casting a spell, and while you could multiclass and cast the spell before you rage, you can't concentrate on it and you might not be multiclassing. Your spellcaster buddy could cast another spell instead or cast the buff spell on someone else. Taking damage is what barbarians do. Resisting all of it, except for psychic unfortunately, makes it better. Advantage on DX saves means they'll be taking quarter damage from DX save spells. Sure a monk and rogue evade, but you're playing a barbarian, so why should that matter. You can join their ranks of not worrying about DX save damage.

It's not a question of Bear Barbarian being the absolute best of everything you are the suck if you don't play one. Other Barbarians types are fine as well. Have fun with being a Wolf Barbarian or even a Zealot if it suits your fancy. The point is Bear Barbarian is good for its sake, not a trap option.

Bannan_mantis

2019-11-27, 08:33 PM

A lot of people here are kinda underselling the bear totem's damage resistances which are honestly very good once you start to consider a important piece of info. A lot of the time when you take non-physical damage you tend to take a lot of damage. Huge evocation spells, breath weapons, life draining attacks are all going to be resisted by a bear totem but not a regular barbarian. That's one of the main reasons to take the extra resistances.

Also at low levels it tends to be the case where non-physical damage is rare but as you level up you start to get more and more enemies using non-physical damage and the bear totem starts to become more and more useful.

TripleD

2019-11-28, 03:00 AM

Can we take a second to appreciate how bizarre this thread would seem if we could send it back in time five years? Back when “Bearbarians” were king and people looked at you funny if you picked any other primal path.

But yeah, Bear Totem is great since, as was said earlier, Barbarians are meant to soak up damage, and this path makes you better at it. Hard to appreciate at low levels when you are mostly fighting orca and goblins, but when you start getting hit by enemy fireballs and lightning bolts you’ll be glad you have it.

Teaguethebean

2019-11-28, 04:29 AM

Hard to appreciate at low levels when you are mostly fighting orca and goblins
I know this is a typo but now I'm imagining a world were it isn't uncommon for your level 3 adventure to be hunting orcas in dnd

TripleD

2019-11-28, 04:57 AM

I know this is a typo but now I'm imagining a world were it isn't uncommon for your level 3 adventure to be hunting orcas in dnd

Now I’m wondering how many DnD encounters have been inspired by typos on the internet and elsewhere.

I’m also considering making “orca” the official plural of “orcs” in all my future games.

Tanarii

2019-11-28, 05:44 AM

LudicSavant

2019-11-28, 06:34 AM

I’d say Zealot is generally stronger.

Doing more damage effectively reduces damage to you and your whole team against most foes, and makes your Barbarian harder to simply ignore. The extra damage is also a bigger DPR boost than some expect, since it only “misses” if all your attacks miss. Rerolling saves helps reduce some of the Barbarian’s biggest weaknesses and effectively reduces average damage from anything with a save that causes damage. And of course you don’t have to pay to rez.

Bear Totem by contrast provides a more situational benefit. Enemies who weren’t using direct elemental damage against you to begin with aren’t giving you value for your level 3 feature, and your 6 is a ribbon.

That means enemies using physical attacks, lockdown or status effects, or simply shooting other members of your party with their elemental attacks aren’t giving you value.

Gignere

2019-11-28, 06:45 AM

It depends on the campaign like if you’re playing temple of elementals (forgot the exact name) the barbarian feature is like a godsend.

Now if you’re hunting elder brains down in the underdark might as well not play one since everything and their pets does psychic damage.

I’d talk to your DM and ask him for guidance. He might have something in mind, like oh I expect you guys to be traipsing through the various elemental planes than bam bear warrior is a no brainer.

On the other hand yeah if he said you are going to be fighting other barbarian tribes nations primarily I’d forget bear totem even exist and pick just about anything else.

AdAstra

2019-11-28, 06:49 AM

Oh, a big thing. Zealot helps you immensely with the most crucial part of tanking in 5e, being too dangerous to ignore. There are competitive options out there for this (Ancestral Guardian and the late-level Bear Totem), but Zealot's is simple and to the point. Enemies can't just make a beeline toward the party Wizard when you're chopping them in half. Archers and casters need to deal with you even more pressingly than they'd need to deal with most Barbarians, thus making you great at disrupting them, even if that means taking some hits you'd prefer not to.

I already mentioned the "all weapon attacks" thing, but I think I failed to impress the importance of this. This feature makes you actually pretty decent at ranged combat, or at least better than basically every other Barbarian. You're no Sharpshooter/Xbow Expert, but sometimes you really need to huck some javelins or even pull out a longbow, and in those instances you're losing out on Reckless Attack and Rage damage. Zealot still loses those things, but because of Divine Fury loses a lot less proportionally.

Quietus

2019-11-28, 06:56 AM

As others have noted, this does make a significant difference based on which campaign you're in. If you're going to mostly encounter physical attacks, then Zealot is the better choice. In something with a more mixed set of foes, definitely consider Bear totem.

Also worth considering, how does your cleric feel about using Warding Bond on you? That also explicitly gives you "resistance to all damage", which gets shared back to the arcana cleric, and if they have a way to further reduce damage it can do a lot to mitigate things. Plus, an added +1 saves/AC for you! If this is a tactic you're going to make regular use of, then Zealot is definitely the way to go.

... Now I really, really want to make my Dwarf runesmith (arcana cleric, with Heavy Armor Master at level 4) using Warding Bond to mitigate damage on the party tank...

Gignere

2019-11-28, 06:57 AM

LudicSavant

2019-11-28, 07:03 AM

Remember the Zealot’s tools aren’t doing nothing against elemental damage dealers. They’ll make their saves more often, let enemies survive fewer rounds, break concentration more easily, redirect more pressure away from allies (by being a bigger threat), etc.

Chaosticket

2019-11-28, 08:37 AM

The early opposition to Bear Totem is misleading. "Its a Trap"?

Zealot is just more situational. Your situation may be the right one.

But really talk with your Party if you're forced to carry everyone in combat. The Bard member isn't helping?

Pex

2019-11-28, 11:31 AM

Having seen plenty of Tier 1 and Tier 2 Bear Totem Barbarians in play, both in AL and IMC, I'm inclined to say it seems to be a low level feature that you pick well in advance, anticipating a high level game. It just doesn't come into play very often at lower levels.

Given level 5-10 are where the vast majority of gaming occurs, it's definitely not a no-brainer. Wolf and Eagle are plenty powerful if you know your party composition.

Most low level monsters aren't doing non-physical damage, but bad guy spellcasters are. Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, Toll The Dead, Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Guiding Bolt, Scorching Ray, Spiritual Weapon, Dissonant Whispers, Eldritch Blast with Hex, Fireball. They're using the same spells PCs are.

No one is saying Wolf and Eagle barbarians are terrible. Bear isn't either.

Tanarii

2019-11-28, 11:56 AM

No one is saying Wolf and Eagle barbarians are terrible. Bear isn't either.
Agreed. It's jut generally not as God-like as many people assume. It's the "Assassinate" feature of the Barbarian class, often far overvalued compared to actual play value.

stoutstien

2019-11-28, 12:08 PM

Zealot is just a solid pick where totem can be just as good IF your party make up is known. 2+ melee attackers and wolf is golden. Lots of magical damage but not as many non damage effects? Bear.
A Barbarians biggest weakness isn't damage taken but rather effects that can shut them down completely or just takes them out of rage.

dragoeniex

2019-11-28, 12:28 PM

Provided, that is, that they haven't already spent all of their Revivify spell slots on the melee ranger with abysmal Con.

True, but Revivify is much better used after combat than in. Either Healing Word the fellow before it's too late, or leave the super breakable guy down for the rest of the fight and res him after. Moving yourself in-range to spend a turn giving someone consciousness and 1 hp isn't necessarily always useless- depending on turn order. Just mostly useless.

I specified the use of Revivify after battle for that reason. It's a worst case patch-up to help the character most likely to heroic sacrifice here. Not your intended tactic for combat.

Also, again, Cleric choice and autonomy is important. Sounds like they're friends, but I'd be sure to run it by them before making assumptions. Requesting a reserved spell for a single res is one thing. Having them put more than that on-hold is too extreme, and if the ranger and barb both go down, I'd guess the useful combat friend who doesn't cost expensive components and works to pick up slack is first in line.

sithlordnergal

2019-11-28, 01:48 PM

Personally, I find the Bear Totem is far more useful then Zealot, Wolf, or any of the others because of their resistances to everything but psychic damage. Maybe I'm the exception, but I generally find most enemies I face don't really do Slashing, Bludgeoning, or Piercing. They tend to do elemental damage, or necrotic

MaxWilson

2019-11-28, 02:42 PM

True, but Revivify is much better used after combat than in. Either Healing Word the fellow before it's too late, or leave the super breakable guy down for the rest of the fight and res him after. Moving yourself in-range to spend a turn giving someone consciousness and 1 hp isn't necessarily always useless- depending on turn order. Just mostly useless.

I specified the use of Revivify after battle for that reason. It's a worst case patch-up to help the character most likely to heroic sacrifice here. Not your intended tactic for combat.

All I was saying is that it sounds like the melee ranger is very fragile and probably sucking up lots of healing resources. This is as true after combat as during combat. From the sound of the OP, it's conceivable the party might have an important fight they have to win despite having already had two fights that day during which the melee Ranger died both times. : - )

Not to mention the autonomy concerns (as you said). The cleric may want to cast Spiritual Guardians, Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, etc. with his spell slots instead of saving them for Revivify.

If it were me playing, instead of making a Barbarian to tank for the melee ranger, I'd make a Shepherd Druid to give him and everybody else some meatshields** and extra HP and/or mass healing. But that's obviously not the road the OP wants to go down. Hope it works!

** My mind is conjuring up an image of 8 kangaroos hopping all over the place, drawing fire and knocking enemies prone for the melee ranger to beat on at advantage.

==========================================

Personally, I find the Bear Totem is far more useful then Zealot, Wolf, or any of the others because of their resistances to everything but psychic damage. Maybe I'm the exception, but I generally find most enemies I face don't really do Slashing, Bludgeoning, or Piercing. They tend to do elemental damage, or necrotic

IIRC @sithlordnergal you're playing at Tier 3/4 though, right? Things are a little different in Tier 2 where the OP is.

dragoeniex

2019-11-28, 03:05 PM

All I was saying is that it sounds like the melee ranger is very fragile and probably sucking up lots of healing resources. This is as true after combat as during combat. From the sound of the OP, it's conceivable the party might have an important fight they have to win despite having already had two fights that day during which the melee Ranger died both times. : - )

Not to mention the autonomy concerns (as you said). The cleric may want to cast Spiritual Guardians, Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, etc. with his spell slots instead of saving them for Revivify.

Right; it's not a perfect option to depend on. But it's a tool that can be strong and relevant and potentially alleviate any resentment that may build up over dying to keep the others safe (again) while the group doesn't have a chunk of diamond.

I meant the thing as an added positive to Zealot that tips the scales for me on this particular scenario, as the rest of its features are plenty solid. Both Totem/Bear and Zealot are subclasses I enjoy quite a lot, as I've played both in different games. Either is going to be a solid option here, imo. But it can really grate on one's fun to feel like you'll wind up the expendable one trying to keep the team afloat, so something that can potentially mitigate that or let you lean into it (pending how Cleric feels and wants to play) even occasionally is a perk.

All that said, I can also support going "Eff it," and filling the battlefield with kangaroos.

Dienekes

2019-11-28, 03:08 PM

Agreed. It's jut generally not as God-like as many people assume. It's the "Assassinate" feature of the Barbarian class, often far overvalued compared to actual play value.

I think it does depend a bit on knowing your game. I know when I GM I take pleasure in throwing weird creatures, effects, and scenarios at my players. So our bearbearian has been using his Resistance since he reached level 3. Including surviving a poisoning that would have killed him level 4 and now comes up almost every encounter at level 7.

But a campaign that just has you slaying different types of orcs until you reach 6 may never use it before the campaign fizzles out.

zinycor

2019-11-28, 03:12 PM

One thing people are forgetting about totem warriors is the ability to cast speak with animals, beast sense, and commune with nature as a ritual, this is very cool since barbarians often lack out of combat abilities.

Expected

2019-11-28, 03:42 PM

Thank you for all of the great advice. If the Cleric is willing to cast Warding Bond on me and doesn't mind saving a spell slot for Revivify, I will go Zealot. Otherwise, I will go Totem Warrior. I am curious about everyone's opinion on the Totem Warrior features at 6 and 14. Totemic Attunement: Eagle gives a flight speed equal to walking speed while raging seems useful to attack flying enemies, especially if I take Mobile (which will also combo nicely with PAM and Sentinel because I can attack+move back 10ft and they'll trigger an OA if the enter my range and if I hit, they cannot move, effectively wasting their turn at no cost to me except a reaction).

And to the person who asked it, no, the Bard does not help at all and is ONLY interested in RP (talking to the Skeleton Archers and trying to tame them) so they are essentially useless during combat at best and a liability at worst. During social encounters, they regularly spend 30 minutes with their shenanigans if not railroaded by the DM--while everyone else at the table has already asked the questions we needed and were ready to go.

MaxWilson

2019-11-28, 04:02 PM

Thank you for all of the great advice. If the Cleric is willing to cast Warding Bond on me and doesn't mind saving a spell slot for Revivify, I will go Zealot.

Isn't it counterproductive to rely on the same cleric for both Warding Bond and Revivify? If you're dead, he probably is too, since he has fewer HP than you and is taking all the same damage.

Expected

2019-11-28, 04:11 PM

Isn't it counterproductive to rely on the same cleric for both Warding Bond and Revivify? If you're dead, he probably is too, since he has fewer HP than you and is taking all the same damage.
That's true--I hadn't thought of that. In that case, if I am able to get 300gp for a Diamond each time I need to be revived, then I'll go Barbearian.

Jamesps

2019-11-28, 05:10 PM

Jamesps

2019-11-28, 05:23 PM

Bear Totem is hands down the greatest totem with the pinnacle of their abilities reached at 6th level. After that you can multiclass out, whatever, they've got nowhere to go but down from there. Once you can life twice your normal carrying capacity though it's all over. Add on advantage to breaking inanimate objects and you will become the quintessential barbarian. Need to carry your entire party out of danger? Take the homebrewed skill "Organizing your sh*t" to stack them all neatly atop your shoulders and high tail it away at 40 ft per round. Need to shot put your halfling friend through a third story window? No problem.

Honestly, DnD parties would be better if if they were just 3 bear totem barbarians and a halfling rogue. I don't know why people make anything else.

Solution to all problems you are liable to face as an adventurer:

Step 1: Surround the problem on three sides with bear barbarians.
Step 2: Rapidly toss a halfling rogue between the three bear barbarians, creating a dizzying array of screaming halfling afterimages as your bear barbarians pick up the pace.
Step 3:
Step 4: Congratulations, you are the victor in all things. You should be able to afford to hire a new halfing.

Chaosticket

2019-11-28, 06:23 PM

Okay now you're overselling it.

What about other subclasses?

Ancestral Guardian is pretty good. Its level 3 Ancestral Protectors is great for keeping attention from one enemy.

Level 6 Spirit Shield allows you to reduce damage to an ally, and it grows.

Level 10 your have a free Clairvoyance or Augury spell per Short Rest.

Level 14 Vengful Ancestors make Spirit Shield reflect damage.

Only bad thing is that it doesn't gain extra Resistances now.

Tanarii

2019-11-28, 10:33 PM

But a campaign that just has you slaying different types of orcs until you reach 6 may never use it before the campaign fizzles out.Were you spying on my 5e adaption of B2 Keep on the Borderlands? Classic dungeon crawl that catapults you to level 6 under 5e hyper fast experience gain, made worse by my using Encounter adjusted XP instead of creature CR XP. There are some truly awesome 12+ creature battles if you screw up in that module. :smallamused: But it's almost all physical damage. No Bear Barb in that party, but they would have definitely have had buyers remorse.

eed to carry your entire party out of danger? Take the homebrewed skill "Organizing your sh*t" to stack them all neatly atop your shoulders and high tail it away at 40 ft per round. Sounds like any good Henchmen (a la Nodwick) needs to be a level 6 Bear Barb.

sophontteks

2019-11-28, 10:42 PM

Bear is one of the weakest totem options early. The lions share of damage is already resisted. Doesn't even prevent suprise elemental damage when rage isn't up. Good positioning is key to a good tank. Elk and eagle provide disgustingly good mobility. Why get hit by a fireball when you can just run right into the face of the caster, grab him by the throat, and chuck him off a cliff, all while his minions helplessly watch.

Even if you think resisting the occasional elemental damage is impactful, its also stupid boring. I'll stick to the barbarian that literally flies.

Most low level monsters aren't doing non-physical damage, but bad guy spellcasters are. Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, Toll The Dead, Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Guiding Bolt, Scorching Ray, Spiritual Weapon, Dissonant Whispers, Eldritch Blast with Hex, Fireball. They're using the same spells PCs are.

No one is saying Wolf and Eagle barbarians are terrible. Bear isn't either.
Why would they target the bear barbarian at all?

zinycor

2019-11-28, 10:54 PM

Why would they target the bear barbarian at all?

Cause the barbarian is going to kill them?

Expected

2019-11-28, 11:08 PM

Cause the barbarian is going to kill them?
There's that (Barbarians have very high DPR) but also that Barbarians can use Reckless Attack, which in combination with their typically low AC, makes them an attractive target. If not for that reason, then there's also the level 15 path feature for bear which imposes disadvantage on enemies within 5ft who attack anyone but the Barbarian.

MaxWilson

2019-11-28, 11:11 PM

There's that (Barbarians have very high DPR) but also that Barbarians can use Reckless Attack, which in combination with their typically low AC, makes them an attractive target. If not for that reason, then there's also the level 15 path feature for bear which imposes disadvantage on enemies within 5ft who attack anyone but the Barbarian.

But not if the monsters can tell that the Barbarian is resisting the damage: that makes them an unattractive target.

zinycor

2019-11-28, 11:23 PM

But not if the monsters can tell that the Barbarian is resisting the damage: that makes them an unattractive target.

So? You are just going to not attack the crazy bastard who is destroying you?

Expected

2019-11-28, 11:31 PM

But not if the monsters can tell that the Barbarian is resisting the damage: that makes them an unattractive target.
Very true. That's where PAM+Sentinel can help--you'll be able to keep them from moving if you hit with your OA. It also depends on the intelligence of the creature and how your DM handles it.

sithlordnergal

2019-11-29, 12:12 AM

IIRC @sithlordnergal you're playing at Tier 3/4 though, right? Things are a little different in Tier 2 where the OP is.

I tend to play more in Tier 2. Usually we face slimes, spell casters, things that do fire or cold damage...occasionally we face a creature that does slashing and/or piercing...but even then there's poison tacked on.

sophontteks

2019-11-29, 12:45 AM

Cause the barbarian is going to kill them?
Not likely. Barbarians aren't really known for dishing out damage compared to other martials. Most likely the party has another member who is much more capable.

If the DM is giving the enemy any intelligence, the barbarian will not look like a great target unless he makes himself a threat. While the bear barb is still waddling to the front, elk and eagle barbs have barreled right through to grapple the leader.

Now there is a reason to shoot the barbarian.

So? You are just going to not attack the crazy bastard who is destroying you?
No, your right, its just that this requires mobility. The threat we are talking about is a caster, so only the fast barbarians will actually be able to hit them

MeeposFire

2019-11-29, 01:13 AM

Agreed. It's jut generally not as God-like as many people assume. It's the "Assassinate" feature of the Barbarian class, often far overvalued compared to actual play value.

I agree though I would add the caveat that bear's resistance is more useful than assassinate to me because those resistances will come into play more and more as the game goes on. Not as much as some make it sound but it will come up whereas the assassinate feature is much harder to make happen though it at least is somewhat in your control.

MaxWilson

2019-11-29, 01:53 AM

So? You are just going to not attack the crazy --- who is destroying you?

If your goal is to kill the PCs, you're going to attack whoever seems the most like a glass cannon. Sounds like the melee Ranger is a good candidate for that, no? OP didn't say they're low-damage, just fragile.

(If your goal is to live, you're probably not going to attack the PCs at all unless/until you get enough reinforcements to outnumber them greatly. But DMs don't usually make monsters pursue this strategy because it's less fun for the players.)

Expected

2019-11-29, 02:26 AM

If your goal is to kill the PCs, you're going to attack whoever seems the most like a glass cannon. Sounds like the melee Ranger is a good candidate for that, no? OP didn't say they're low-damage, just fragile.

(If your goal is to live, you're probably not going to attack the PCs at all unless/until you get enough reinforcements to outnumber them greatly. But DMs don't usually make monsters pursue this strategy because it's less fun for the players.)

That is exactly what my DM does. He plays the enemies intelligently (even if they really aren't) and he is merciless. My previous character, a Fighter, was knocked unconscious. What did my DM do? Kill my PC before being killed by my party. We didn't have Revivify so it was time for me to bring a new PC in (my Barbarian).

MaxWilson

2019-11-29, 02:52 AM

That is exactly what my DM does. He plays the enemies intelligently (even if they really aren't) and he is merciless. My previous character, a Fighter, was knocked unconscious. What did my DM do? Kill my PC before being killed by my party. We didn't have Revivify so it was time for me to bring a new PC in (my Barbarian).

That sounds kind of cheap (it didn't even try to take the Fighter hostage instead and bargain for its life? what was this monster's motivation?) but it's still not quite what I was talking about.

The "not fun for the players" part I was talking about has less to do with monsters killing PCs intelligently and more to do with monsters intelligently retreating until they have a superior correlation of forces. Nobody wants to play a game that looks like:

Encounter 1: Fighter kills a goblin. Wizard Fireballs 4 goblins. 6 goblins run away, scattering in all directions.
Encounter 2: Cleric casts Spirit Guardians. Fighter kills a goblin. 10 Goblins run away. Spirit Guardians lapses.
Encounter 3: Wizard Fire Bolts a goblin but misses. Fighter kills a goblin. 15 goblins and an Orog shoot arrows at the party as they run away. Rogue manages to corner and kill 2 more goblins as they're running.
Encounter 4: 34 goblins, two Orogs, and an Oni TPK the party in a pincer attack.

Even the people who like Combat As War games and wouldn't mind Encounter 4 don't want to have to suffer through Encounters 1-3 first, not in any detail, especially not with all the ceremony 5E imposes on combat (roll initiative, determine turns, take turns talking to the DM and rolling dice... combat is over before you got to take a turn because they're all running away). And most people don't even want the deadly Encounter 4 at all.

For the most part it's the DM's job to come up with worlds where for one reason or another it's logical for the monsters to kamikaze the party instead of falling back and seeking reinforcements immediately. Either the monsters are maddened/cursed, or they're malevolent zombies with no sense of self-preservation, or they're fanatical elite warriors who can't admit defeat until they've taken extreme casualties.

Expected

2019-11-29, 03:05 AM

It was. We play "combat as war" and I build characters for battles like encounter 4. The DM does retreat when outnumbered but will punish mistakes we make (mine was trusting the Bard to heal me if I went down because I did save his life; instead he gave me inspiration and used his action to try to talk to the enemies' pets). The enemy did have a reason to kill me as I was the biggest threat. My party was routed once I fell (but my PC's body saved them as his pets were too busy eating). Thankfully, I built this Barbarian for the next session, ran in and raged, and used a halberd and Polearm Master to slaughter them. It was a poetic end to the villain who murdered my previous PC.

MaxWilson

2019-11-29, 03:18 AM

It was. We play "combat as war"... but my PC's body saved them as his pets were too busy eating

Hmmm. I'm actually starting to kind of like your DM. : )

GlenSmash!

2019-11-29, 12:26 PM

I love a barbarian thread after a holiday. So much to get into.

Ok so at level 3-6 I think the Zealot is more useful than Bear Totem. Most of the damage you are likely to face will be B/P/S anyway so you don't get much out of Bear. and at 6 an extra saving throw re-roll is much more useful than any of the level 6 totem options because it can stop a Rage under like Hold Person. And radiant damage once per turn is pretty great. Especially since you can deliver it at Range. There has been plenty of times where my current Zealot can't close enough ground to get in melee on the first turn. Throwing a Javelin or even firing a Longbow to deliver some Radiant damage was quite useful (especially on a vampire trying to keep his distance).

7-13 is where I would give Bear the advantage (with one exception). Here you encounter a lot more non-physical damage and Bear Totem really shines. The exception is in regard to Zealous Presence at 10, which is a neat way to buff your party, or a bunch of NPCs. If you have a summoner in the group this is even better. A once per day everybody is better at attacking and staying alive button.

At 14+ I think Zealot is unequivocally better (with one exception, again). Resistance to just about all forms of Damage while Raging just doesn't compare to ignoring all hitpoint damage altogether while Raging. The only Problem with this is smart enemies may understand that at that point it's better to ignore you altogether until the rest of the party is dead. (but maybe you should let that Ranger and Bard die if they aren't pulling their weight :smallwink:)

On the whole I think Zealots take the cake unless you you expect one or more of the following:

the campaign will end in tier 2-3
You think you will get lots of use from the Beast Totem spells. Less likely if a Druid is in the party
You are going to multiclass and not put 14 levels into Barbarian.
At 14+ you are going to need limited self-flight capability

Expected

2019-11-29, 02:22 PM

Hmmm. I'm actually starting to kind of like your DM. : )
He's old school and started playing D&D when it first came out. I have a lot of respect for him because he is highly skilled at DM'ing combat--his tactics would put the Romans to shame.

I love a barbarian thread after a holiday. So much to get into.

Ok so at level 3-6 I think the Zealot is more useful than Bear Totem. Most of the damage you are likely to face will be B/P/S anyway so you don't get much out of Bear. and at 6 an extra saving throw re-roll is much more useful than any of the level 6 totem options because it can stop a Rage under like Hold Person. And radiant damage once per turn is pretty great. Especially since you can deliver it at Range. There has been plenty of times where my current Zealot can't close enough ground to get in melee on the first turn. Throwing a Javelin or even firing a Longbow to deliver some Radiant damage was quite useful (especially on a vampire trying to keep his distance).

7-13 is where I would give Bear the advantage (with one exception). Here you encounter a lot more non-physical damage and Bear Totem really shines. The exception is in regard to Zealous Presence at 10, which is a neat way to buff your party, or a bunch of NPCs. If you have a summoner in the group this is even better. A once per day everybody is better at attacking and staying alive button.

At 14+ I think Zealot is unequivocally better (with one exception, again). Resistance to just about all forms of Damage while Raging just doesn't compare to ignoring all hitpoint damage altogether while Raging. The only Problem with this is smart enemies may understand that at that point it's better to ignore you altogether until the rest of the party is dead. (but maybe you should let that Ranger and Bard die if they aren't pulling their weight :smallwink:)

On the whole I think Zealots take the cake unless you you expect one or more of the following:

the campaign will end in tier 2-3
You think you will get lots of use from the Beast Totem spells. Less likely if a Druid is in the party
You are going to multiclass and not put 14 levels into Barbarian.
At 14+ you are going to need limited self-flight capability

The saving throw reroll is, in my opinion, one of the best features a Zealot gets and a huge reason why I am leaving Wis odd and taking Resilient: Wisdom. Rage Beyond Death can be especially useful in my campaign because I am essentially the sole tank and damage dealer (the Ranger is new and built his PC for flavor, and the Bard is useless, but we do have a Cleric).

On the other hand, the Barbearian's resistance to all damage but Psychic and limited flight are tempting. The Zealot has better RP opportunities in my opinion because either way, I want my Barbarian to worship Tempus and it seems more fitting.

The campaign will reach level 20
We have a Ranger in the party
I am planning on 0-20 Barbarian
I am concerned about flying enemies however. Maybe I can convince the Bard to cast Fly on me while he is busy RPing during combat.

MaxWilson

2019-11-29, 02:36 PM

I am concerned about flying enemies however. Maybe I can convince the Bard to cast Fly on me while he is busy RPing during combat.

(1) Zealot can chuck spears or shoot a longbow and still get the bonus radiant damage on each hit.

(2) Don't forget about the "tactical retreat" option: against flying enemies, retreat indoors or underground so they can't attack you without landing. It's possible that the bard and the ranger may not cooperate when you call for them to fall back, and if so they will get the chance to either pull off something brilliant or else roleplay their deaths just like you did. Too bad! (I know, I know, it's easier said than done to leave a fellow PC to their fate.)

Pex

2019-11-29, 02:36 PM

But not if the monsters can tell that the Barbarian is resisting the damage: that makes them an unattractive target.

How can they tell? Will no one ever try to charm a level 6+ Devotion Paladin? A spell is cast. No one said anything or moved. Does everyone know it must be the PC who is not wearing armor and that he is a Sorcerer using subtle spell? The wizard casts an illusion. Does every NPC who goes next checks to see if it's an illusion and tells the others? Will spellcasters always cast a damage spell against a Wolf Barbarian who rages but not have been able to use his wolf feature yet because no other ally is where he is at the particular moment in combat?

Monsters and NPC bad guys attack the barbarian because he's right next to them trying to kill them. Certainly some foes are intelligent enough. Some spellcasters will use non-damage spells against the barbarian, not because he's a barbarian but because he's a warrior with lots of hit points and less likely to make IN, WI, or CH saves. The bad guys can use tactics, but it is just as wrong for the DM to metagame them.

GlenSmash!

2019-11-29, 02:45 PM

I am concerned about flying enemies however. Maybe I can convince the Bard to cast Fly on me while he is busy RPing during combat.

How is your DM handling Magic items? A broom of Flying is only an uncommon magic item.

Expected

2019-11-29, 02:47 PM

(1) Zealot can chuck spears or shoot a longbow and still get the bonus radiant damage on each hit.

(2) Don't forget about the "tactical retreat" option: against flying enemies, retreat indoors or underground so they can't attack you without landing. It's possible that the bard and the ranger may not cooperate when you call for them to fall back, and if so they will get the chance to either pull off something brilliant or else roleplay their deaths just like you did. Too bad! (I know, I know, it's easier said than done to leave a fellow PC to their fate.)

1. True, I can use Javelins. It just feels lackluster compared to two attacks and a bonus attack using GWM. At least I have that option, though. It's one of the main reasons why I'm considering Totem Warrior (the 40, or 50 with Mobile, flight speed).

2. This seriously made me laugh. The Bard and Ranger mean well, but they are by no means the brains of the group. They probably will fight to the death and not follow instruction (when they don't have to, unlike me who did it to save the Ranger). It is very tough and I enjoy playing tanks because I like the feeling of protecting my allies (even ones who I should let die).

The Bard

Expected

2019-11-29, 02:56 PM

How can they tell? Will no one ever try to charm a level 6+ Devotion Paladin? A spell is cast. No one said anything or moved. Does everyone know it must be the PC who is not wearing armor and that he is a Sorcerer using subtle spell? The wizard casts an illusion. Does every NPC who goes next checks to see if it's an illusion and tells the others? Will spellcasters always cast a damage spell against a Wolf Barbarian who rages but not have been able to use his wolf feature yet because no other ally is where he is at the particular moment in combat?

Monsters and NPC bad guys attack the barbarian because he's right next to them trying to kill them. Certainly some foes are intelligent enough. Some spellcasters will use non-damage spells against the barbarian, not because he's a barbarian but because he's a warrior with lots of hit points and less likely to make IN, WI, or CH saves. The bad guys can use tactics, but it is just as wrong for the DM to metagame them.
I cannot agree more. I like how our DM handles it however--he will attack normally not suspecting any resistance unless he has a logical reason to (e.g. a previous encounter with us) and make an Intelligence check if the creature is smart enough. He can metagame sometimes, but it adds to the challenge and makes winning that much more rewarding (kind of like defeating the hardest difficulty AI on Age of Empires/Civilization who are proven to cheat). If anything, I take it as a compliment because he sometimes has to metagame to make it challenging because I am decent at combat (better when my party decides to contribute LOL). I'm known to be a min-maxer (I also like RP but suck at it).

How is your DM handling Magic items? A broom of Flying is only an uncommon magic item.
My DM is making coin extremely rare (we also use the variant training rule for leveling which depletes our money) and we haven't come across a magic item so far, but I can assume he will roll on the DMG using the tables when we finally do see one. I do know there will be no magic stores whatsoever, though.

MaxWilson

2019-11-29, 03:13 PM

1. True, I can use Javelins. It just feels lackluster compared to two attacks and a bonus attack using GWM. At least I have that option, though. It's one of the main reasons why I'm considering Totem Warrior (the 40, or 50 with Mobile, flight speed).

You can still get two attacks with bonus radiant damage using javelins or a longbow. You won't get any benefit from GWM it's true, but I do recommend at least carrying a longbow. It's better than being helpless.

And seriously, that bard eventually needs to either wise up or win a Darwin award. He doesn't have to stop being goofy, but he needs to eventually start being somewhat effective in an off-the-wall way or retire. Show some character growth. Bilbo Baggins didn't stay useless throughout the Hobbit: he grew!

How can they tell?

By seeing that the Barbarian is resisting their damage?

I didn't say monsters will always know in advance. I said that when they figure it out, you become a less attractive target. *How* the DM handles conveying information about AC, resistances, to-hit, etc. makes a huge difference here. If the DM rules that a Reckless AC 16 Raging barbarian gives the enemy no information except "you have advantage to hit him and he isn't dead yet", then sure, monsters may fall for that. If the DM rules that enemies can see resistance in action, they may not: "your 15 HP claw attack only cut the human for 7 HP of damage. It seems to be resisting your weapons!"

As DM I much prefer to err on the side of giving lots of information about AC, resistance, etc., both during and after combat, because players need information to make good decisions, and monsters deserve the same courtesy. I figure PCs can see waaaaay more detail than players can: players are limited to the information bandwidth of the DM's mouth, but PCs can see, hear, taste, touch everything and so can monsters. Keeping it a secret whether a creature is taking damage and/or how close it is to dead just makes the game unnecessarily and IMO unrealistically frustrating.

But the point here is that Reckless Rage is only better than AC for tanking if your DM keeps resistance secret from the monsters but not AC or advantage.

Chaosticket

2019-11-30, 09:10 PM

Tanarii

2019-11-30, 11:11 PM

You get 3 Rages(37.5% of your maximum) at only level 3 where you can also get that Bear Totem for double Hit Points. Bear Totem level 3 doesn't double hit points.

Expected

2019-12-01, 03:53 AM

Bear Totem level 3 doesn't double hit points.
I think they are referring to how resistance from Rage increases effective Hit Points for Barbarians (e.g. Fighter gets x damage, but Barbarian gets x/2 damage--except psychic--while raging). It's a common misunderstanding that I also assumed was correct, but the math isn't that simple.

I have decided to play a Totem Warrior Barbarian and take Bear at level 3, Bear/Eagle/Tiger at level 6, and Eagle at Level 15. For the level 6 feature, which one should I choose? They all seem like ribbon features.

TheUser

2019-12-01, 06:09 AM

Step 1: pick a race with powerful build and +2 strength

Step 2: Start with 15+2 strength

Step 3: Go Totem Barbarian at level 3

Step 4: pick up tavern brawler at 4

Step 5: Get Bear Totem at level 6

Step 6: Revel in your ability to carry 1080lbs / lift, drag or push 2160 and wield anything as a weapon. Making careful note that a plethora of heavy **** can also provide full cover and/or be left on top of weaklings unable to lift what you smash them with.

da newt

2019-12-01, 11:20 AM

Where can I find the RAW for what bigger weapons I can wield with a massive carry capacity / strength (and what damage oversized weapons do)?

TheUser

2019-12-01, 12:21 PM

Where can I find the RAW for what bigger weapons I can wield with a massive carry capacity / strength (and what damage oversized weapons do)?

Unfortunately improvised weapons deal 1d4+strength RAW. However the traps section of the DMG has some very good examples of improvised damage; a falling bookcase dealing 1d10, a collapsing roof dealing 4d10.

You could even turn your action from two attacks into a dex save (DC = your attack roll) for 4d10+strength mod with your rage modifer added to damage? Sky's the limit. Depends on what you're wielding.

The real value is in being able to prone, crush and suffocate weak enemies while maintaining full cover from ranged attackers.

JellyPooga

2019-12-01, 12:40 PM

Amechra

2019-12-01, 01:46 PM

Tanarii

2019-12-01, 01:49 PM

I think they are referring to how resistance from Rage increases effective Hit Points for Barbarians (e.g. Fighter gets x damage, but Barbarian gets x/2 damage--except psychic--while raging). It's a common misunderstanding that I also assumed was correct, but the math isn't that simple.Its not a matter of the math isn't that simple, it's a matter of a Raging Barbarian already gets PBS resistance. Selecting Bear doesn't double your hit points when raging because you've already got "double hit points", if that's how you want to view resistance, in some fraction of hits, ranging from almost all to ??? depending on level and campaign.

It's this overblown claim that makes some people put Bear Totem on a pedestal.

Expected

2019-12-01, 04:32 PM

Put me in the list of people wondering why you aren't looking at the Ancestral Guardian primal path.

The Barbearian and the Zealot are better at survival/dishing out damage, but they're worse at drawing aggression. Wing a javelin at a heavy hitter, and they're now really terrible at going after anyone other than you.

---

It sounds like there's a mismatch between your DM and your fellow players, though. The DM going full Combat As War doesn't rely mesh with the whole "our Bard does nothing in fights" thing. Why not, I dunno, tell them that you aren't going to tank on your next character?
I will definitely consider Ancestral Guardian. Once I start playing my Barbarian (my Fighter died in the last game), the Ranger will sit back and attack at range with his longbow and I will be alone on the frontlines. Thankfully they can attack from very far away and will have a hard time getting past me with PAM at level 1 and Sentinel at level 4. I plan on using Reckless Attack liberally to make myself a more attractive target.

Chaosticket

2019-12-01, 10:09 PM

Its not a matter of the math isn't that simple, it's a matter of a Raging Barbarian already gets PBS resistance. Selecting Bear doesn't double your hit points when raging because you've already got "double hit points", if that's how you want to view resistance, in some fraction of hits, ranging from almost all to ??? depending on level and campaign.

It's this overblown claim that makes some people put Bear Totem on a pedestal.

There are 13 damage types in 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons.

Every Barbarian while Raging gains Resistance(half damage) to Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing damage. Those are common physical damage types.

Level 3 Bear Totem adds Acid, Cold, Fire, Force, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Radiant, and Thunder. Those are less common individually, but with 9 types of damage to your Resistance Coverage that is about 95% of the damage types you will ever encounter. Nearly every damage Spell from level 0 Cantrips to tier 9 ones are covered under this. I cannot stress how massive the difference this is.

For Example, you can take hits from nukes like Slay Living, Disintegrate, Meteor Swarm, and keep going.

This isnt just good for a pure Bear Barbarian, but other classes can massively benefit through Multiclassing. Spellcasters dont want is as much because then cant Rage and Cast spells simultaneously.

JellyPooga

2019-12-02, 02:56 AM

There are 13 damage types in 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons.

Every Barbarian while Raging gains Resistance(half damage) to Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing damage. Those are common physical damage types.

Level 3 Bear Totem adds Acid, Cold, Fire, Force, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Radiant, and Thunder. Those are less common individually, but with 9 types of damage to your Resistance Coverage that is about 95% of the damage types you will ever encounter. Nearly every damage Spell from level 0 Cantrips to tier 9 ones are covered under this. I cannot stress how massive the difference this is.

For Example, you can take hits from nukes like Slay Living, Disintegrate, Meteor Swarm, and keep going.

This isnt just good for a pure Bear Barbarian, but other classes can massively benefit through Multiclassing. Spellcasters dont want is as much because then cant Rage and Cast spells simultaneously.

Are you seriously suggesting that Bear Totem is worth losing 3 levels of your primary class for? Solely? This, right here, is why people like myself and Tanarii think it's a feature that's blown out of proportion and considered better than it it. Yeah, ok, it's a decent enough feature, but it's really not that good.

Another kick in the teeth for the "it doubles your HP" claim though, is that it only functions when you're actually Raging. That's a lot of time spent without effective x2HP.

djreynolds

2019-12-02, 04:16 AM

Chaosticket

2019-12-02, 05:56 AM

Are you seriously suggesting that Bear Totem is worth losing 3 levels of your primary class for? Solely? This, right here, is why people like myself and Tanarii think it's a feature that's blown out of proportion and considered better than it it. Yeah, ok, it's a decent enough feature, but it's really not that good.

Another kick in the teeth for the "it doubles your HP" claim though, is that it only functions when you're actually Raging. That's a lot of time spent without effective x2HP.

In terms of Numbers the Barbarian's effectiveness as a class wanes. You peak at level 1 where you a devastating rager that can take enemies out in one turn or even just one Hit.

After that you hit some milestones before fading again. Level 5 is a major one where you get Extra Attack, and Fast Movement. Its all downhill after that until level 20, where you may never reach and if you do you are probably retiring your character.

At level 1 you get all the usual beginner things. Maximum hit points, skill proficiencies, equipment Feats/proficiencies. You also get Rage the Barbarians' Signature Ability.

For effectively 2 Encounters a day you have Resistance to Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing. +16 levels later that is 6 Rages per day. 17 times the level and you have 3 times as much Rage. That does not add up well.
Depending on your campaign that may actually be surplus as you may only have 1 Combat Encounter per day. In longer days Its relatively easy to manage, just save it for tough encounters like a Boss Fight instead of common mooks.
Full Barbarian you should be Raging nearly every encounter for that Resistance and other bonuses.

Bear Totem level 3 is an excellently efficient ability, whether you go Full Barbarian or Multiclassing.

The higher the level you get the more that ability improves because eventually everything is going to be doing some kind of effect damage. There are Elementals, Dragons have breath weapons, and any enemy can have Cantrips. Even common level 1 enemies can light their weapons on Fire or Poison them without any spells. If you do get into serious threats then you can face groups of enemy spellcasters just tossing Firebolts and later Disintegrate you.
=======================
Multiclassing is better than most single classes. Classes peak at level 1-5. Martial Classes are most effective at level 1 where they can One-Turn if not One-Hit Kill enemies. Level 5 is a good stopping point as that is where most Martial Classes gain Extra Attack.

The benefits to multiclassing can Double your effectiveness at something. 1 Level in Rogue gets you Expertise(Double profiency) with 2 skills of your choice, 1 extra Skill Proficiency.
2 levels gets you Cunning Action, which can be used in various ways like Dash to double your movement.

2 Levels of Fighter gives you Action Surge. 3 Levels allows for subclass powers. Samurai 3 has a bonus Skill and Samurai Spirit allows advantage on all attacks for a round.

NOMster

2019-12-02, 07:04 AM

I understand it's not popular opinion, but currently we're at level 9 and my AG barbarian is still kicking ass and taking names with the best of them.
Party comp:
Paladin
Druid
Sorcerer
Rogue
Gunslinger
Artificer
Bard6/rogue3
Ranger

While The ranged group is taking out minions, my guy is up front making the bbeg ineffective against everyone else and the other melees can clean his clock. Of course we have a very big team and some smart characters so they know that keeping my guy alive is important to keeping their own skins intact.

AdAstra

2019-12-02, 07:35 AM

Chaosticket

2019-12-02, 08:42 AM

AdAstra

2019-12-02, 09:00 AM

I don't know how that is an opinion. Its just how your Party is working.

I'm trying to be objective on this so I'm checking the numbers.

A Zealot barbarian isn't bad, but too specific to use its powers. You have to go Leeroy Jenkins, and get yourself killed often. If you're not acting in a certain way then the whole subclass is a waste.

Other subclasses have better practical abilities you use often.

The primary power is the damage, which is always useful. The free revival is almost more of a ribbon. It's pretty rare for a Barbarian to die in general, and often, that'll be after everyone else is dead. But 1d6+1/2 lvl. is nothing to sneeze at. You've basically got caveat-free Sneak Attack Lite on a solid melee chassis with Extra Attack and Rage Bonus as well.

NOMster

2019-12-02, 09:14 AM

I don't know how that is an opinion. Its just how your Party is working.

I was speaking to the idea that a barbarian isn't good past level 5. which I've seen more than once but I've found that to not be true in my experience.

djreynolds

2019-12-02, 09:22 AM

It looks like a fun party.

A melee ranger, yapping bard, arcana cleric, and barbarian.

Damage dealing will depend on the party as a whole working together.

You have 2 roles. Draw aggro and kill. Reckless attack and GWM.

You really have tough choice. Arcana clerics with booming blade can do quite well in melee but this guy seems like a blaster.

The ranger feels like dual scimitars type.

And a bard.

You have your work cut out. GWM and reckless attack will be crucial. So I see the why bear totem is so appealing.

You know for this party I think OP is spot on.
Bear for total damage mitigation.
Zealot for some extra damage.

Ancestor would be awesome. But you are the threat for the enemy.

So with "this" party in mind. Bear totem.

Because as an enemy I'm throwing the kitchen sink at you. And it's on fire and poisoned and has necrotic stuff all over it.

HiveStriker

2019-12-02, 11:34 AM

Between these two Primal Paths, which is better? I am the sole tank and damage dealer and I need to be able to give and take a LOT of damage. My party consists of mainly RPers non-optimized for combat (my Fighter died saving our melee Ranger with abysmal Con). My party consists of me, a Melee Ranger, a Bard (that refuses to heal and does RP stuff on their turn), and an Arcane Cleric. I know I can rely on the Cleric which is why I'm considering dumping Wis (I'd have to for 16 Str and Con and 14 Dex) and why I'm considering Zealot. Fanatical Focus seems good to succeed Wis saving throws (if I don't dump it) but the resistance to all damage besides psychic is too tempting to pass on. I'd also get a fly speed later to attack low flying enemies. What do you think?
Totem gets my vote. Detailed review below but first...

Don't be fooled by Bear Totem; it's not "resistance to all damage except psychic", it's "you gain some additional resistances"...it's a ribbon compared to, say, Wolf Totem, which your melee Ranger buddy will love you for. Especially if your Cleric friend is at all up to snuff as the party buffer. Bear Totem is a trap.
Yeah, it's resistance to all damage except psychic.
Wolf Totem is very nice too, but it's nothing that can't get replicated with a simple Shove, something that Barbs are extremely good at.

You are welcome to have taste favoring non-Bear choice, or even non Totem, but saying that it's a trap option is simply ridiculous.

Now, back on track...

I'd favor Totem for the following reasons.
1. It has choices! I love Bear as much as everyone and imx it comes online often enough to make you glad you took it (especially if you has to be the one going "blindly" into a room -traps are a thing-, or if you tag-team with Ranger -2 can be enough to be considered a crowd as far as AOE are concerned-). Also, as you get higher level, those "alternative damage types" become more and more common because enemies get lots of extra abilities. So it's very big added value in the long run.
If you feel however that it may not be as useful as you would like, Eagle and Elk are extremely useful on a melee class, especially at low level.
Zealot's level 3 provides a once per round extra damage which is nice, but will really feel relevant only when you get at least level 10. In comparison, Eagle can allow you to actually reach an enemy to land your (Extra) Attack, while Elk makes your life easier in general while keeping your bonus action free for dual-wield or GWM extra attack on crit. Whether that comes often enough is up to your own feeling. :)
So whatever you choose, my hat goes to Totem for level 3.

Level 6 Totem features are more or less interesting depending on your taste and setup, I usually love Eagle to take up scouting part but you have a Ranger. Bear is always nice, but sadly kinda situational (besides being the mule), Elk is very beneficial is DM is enforcing regular traveling rules, Tiger is useful whatever party you're in.
With that said, Zealot's 3 times per long rest (and later 4-5-6 and finally "use two bonus action to refresh") can definitely save your hide. So overall, at level 6, I'd prefer having Zealot.

Level 10: Totem is nice, but depends on how you know to use it and how DM reacts. Zealot is solid but oddly situational, since it's one time per long rest, one turn. Plus you don't have many "attack rolls" users so it's mainly for saving throws.
Still, definitely better than Totem for encounters, which is your main priority. So point for Zealot.

Level 14: Totem would possibly still get my favor. I know that you really want to tank, and Zealot is extremely appealing in that regard since you basically die only if nobody could heal you even just one point before the end of fighting (tip: have a Goodberry in your pocket).
But provided you reach that level, you'll face flying creatures, Large and more creatures, and creatures more dangerous than ever.
So whether you choose Bear (force disadvantage against other creatures than you), Eagle (fly and shove prone those pesky winged enemies), Wolf (auto-prone on bonus action, no save required) or Tiger (great with Mobile) you have ways to help your party which may be simply more efficient than "grit my teeth as I stand instead of falling".

--> For a level 1 to 8, I'd favor Totem. If you expect to reach 10-13, both are good but Zealot may fit better your objective. If you expect very high level just pick whatever suit your taste best, both are great. :)

I already mentioned the "all weapon attacks" thing, but I think I failed to impress the importance of this. This feature makes you actually pretty decent at ranged combat, or at least better than basically every other Barbarian. You're no Sharpshooter/Xbow Expert, but sometimes you really need to huck some javelins or even pull out a longbow, and in those instances you're losing out on Reckless Attack and Rage damage. Zealot still loses those things, but because of Divine Fury loses a lot less proportionally.
Good point too.

As others have noted, this does make a significant difference based on which campaign you're in. If you're going to mostly encounter physical attacks, then Zealot is the better choice. In something with a more mixed set of foes, definitely consider Bear totem.

Also worth considering, how does your cleric feel about using Warding Bond on you? That also explicitly gives you "resistance to all damage", which gets shared back to the arcana cleric, and if they have a way to further reduce damage it can do a lot to mitigate things. Plus, an added +1 saves/AC for you! If this is a tactic you're going to make regular use of, then Zealot is definitely the way to go.

... Now I really, really want to make my Dwarf runesmith (arcana cleric, with Heavy Armor Master at level 4) using Warding Bond to mitigate damage on the party tank...
Nice idea in essence, but besides the fact it requires Cleric to stay close to melee (not *that* big a deal since you want to stay close for Healing Words and Sacred Flame anywyas), it would be a real shame to use it on a Barbarian when party has a 8 CON Ranger that insists on being in melee. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, a big thing. Zealot helps you immensely with the most crucial part of tanking in 5e, being too dangerous to ignore. There are competitive options out there for this (Ancestral Guardian and the late-level Bear Totem), but Zealot's is simple and to the point. Enemies can't just make a beeline toward the party Wizard when you're chopping them in half. Archers and casters need to deal with you even more pressingly than they'd need to deal with most Barbarians, thus making you great at disrupting them, even if that means taking some hits you'd prefer not to.
This I disagree. Zealot does nothing about mobility. Zealot does nothing either about forcing people to attack you.
The sweet point of Barb is levels 5-10, when he gets 10 feet bonus speed but enemies are still in the regular 30-35 feet range and little in the way of non-melee attacks.
But later? Between ranged attacks, spells (direct damage or difficult terrain) and better movement, it's not that hard to ignore Barbarian. Enemies spread out, maybe one "sacrifices" to try and hold Barbarian in a funny reverse-game logic, but Barbarian can be left hanging out swinging polearm in thin air, reduced to javelin throw.

Remember the Zealot’s tools aren’t doing nothing against elemental damage dealers. They’ll make their saves more often, let enemies survive fewer rounds, break concentration more easily, redirect more pressure away from allies (by being a bigger threat), etc.
Same. Barbarian as you progress is a comparatively diminishing threat compared to more or less any other class (except probably a STR melee Champion Fighter that does not even have extra speed), unless he (litteraly) takes things into his own hands (aka managing to Shove or even better Grapple a creature, which is not always a thing at high level) or gets help from party (restraining effects on enemies, mobility boost like Fly or Haste).
Of course not every encounter makes you face intelligent groups using sound tactics and thinking as they go: irrational/intuitive enemies still exist (although you could argue that an intuitive enemy would flee rather than attack, but that's still a win ^^).

That's where Elk/Bear/Eagle makes a very potent combination (Bear in middle for when/if your DM follows your ideas such as lifting rocks to let them fall down on group of enemies. Otherwise whatever you like for level 6 ^^).

(1) Zealot can chuck spears or shoot a longbow and still get the bonus radiant damage on each hit.

(2) Don't forget about the "tactical retreat" option: against flying enemies, retreat indoors or underground so they can't attack you without landing. It's possible that the bard and the ranger may not cooperate when you call for them to fall back, and if so they will get the chance to either pull off something brilliant or else roleplay their deaths just like you did. Too bad! (I know, I know, it's easier said than done to leave a fellow PC to their fate.)
I think you're wrong and that extra damage is on "first creature you hit on the turn", not "the first time you hit a creature in a turn", so it's only once per turn, and only on your turn. Unless the source I found was wrong.

As for the tactical retreat, true, if you can afford it, and if the enemy "has" to follow you (for example because *they* cannot afford to let you live/leave) ^^.

All I was saying is that it sounds like the melee ranger is very fragile and probably sucking up lots of healing resources. This is as true after combat as during combat. From the sound of the OP, it's conceivable the party might have an important fight they have to win despite having already had two fights that day during which the melee Ranger died both times. : - )

Not to mention the autonomy concerns (as you said). The cleric may want to cast Spiritual Guardians, Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, etc. with his spell slots instead of saving them for Revivify.

If it were me playing, instead of making a Barbarian to tank for the melee ranger, I'd make a Shepherd Druid to give him and everybody else some meatshields** and extra HP and/or mass healing. But that's obviously not the road the OP wants to go down. Hope it works!

** My mind is conjuring up an image of 8 kangaroos hopping all over the place, drawing fire and knocking enemies prone for the melee ranger to beat on at advantage.

==========================================

IIRC @sithlordnergal you're playing at Tier 3/4 though, right? Things are a little different in Tier 2 where the OP is.
Or, very much more simple, Ranger should stop being a suicidal **** and stay mid-line (if STR) or switching backline (DEX), and learn Healing Spirit for him and allies alike.

MaxWilson

2019-12-02, 11:54 AM

I was speaking to the idea that a barbarian isn't good past level 5. which I've seen more than once but I've found that to not be true in my experience.

It's more about opportunity cost than "isn't good", or the idea that "more Barbarian" isn't as good as more of something else. E.g. you could have been an Ancestral Guardian 3/Fiend Bladelock 6 for tons of temp HP and crowd control, and you wouldn't lose out on any important parts of Barbarian: you could still do exactly the same physical BBEG lockdown that you're doing today, but you'd have more options in fights against magical BBEGs (Counterspell) and ranged BBEGs (flying dragons: blast them or Fly yourself) and non-BBEG hordes (Fear).

HiveStriker

2019-12-02, 12:14 PM

Ive read at least 3 times people saying smack about the Level 3 Bear Totem Barbarian power. Its one of the best powers in 5th edition.

Totem barbarian is good because you arent locked into 1 totem. Pick Bear at level 1, Tiger at level 6 for 2 free skills, then Eagle at 14 to fly.

Really I would suggest multiclassing instead of full Barbarian. You get 3 Rages(37.5% of your maximum) at only level 3 where you can also get that Bear Totem for double Hit Points. Level 4 you get a Feat. Level 5 you reach you peak with Extra Attack.

You have a strange way around maths mate: since when 3 is 37,5% of infinite? XD
Let's recall rage becomes unlimited at level 20, and Expected, well, *expects* to reach level 20 in campaign provided he lives long enough for that. ^^ (which is something I didn't see when writing my reply. Makes the choice much harder ^^).

I think they are referring to how resistance from Rage increases effective Hit Points for Barbarians (e.g. Fighter gets x damage, but Barbarian gets x/2 damage--except psychic--while raging). It's a common misunderstanding that I also assumed was correct, but the math isn't that simple.

I have decided to play a Totem Warrior Barbarian and take Bear at level 3, Bear/Eagle/Tiger at level 6, and Eagle at Level 15. For the level 6 feature, which one should I choose? They all seem like ribbon features.
Wow. So I completely missed the party. XD

I'd suggest Bear IF your DM tend to let you be creative with environment or friends. There is the "carry friend" of course, but there is also the "whack the door per raw STR", or what I said earlier, "make yourself a dolmen bomber" (at level 14) or simply make a ping pong with that Stone Giant hurling boulder at you. XD

Eagle or Wolf is nice if you want to tag-team with your Ranger for scouting (or even completely carry the role).

Elk is probably ribbon unless your DM takes traveling pace into account AND you tend to be short on time during quests.

Tiger is the "always safe, always useful" one. :)

I will definitely consider Ancestral Guardian. Once I start playing my Barbarian (my Fighter died in the last game), the Ranger will sit back and attack at range with his longbow and I will be alone on the frontlines. Thankfully they can attack from very far away and will have a hard time getting past me with PAM at level 1 and Sentinel at level 4. I plan on using Reckless Attack liberally to make myself a more attractive target.
If you're really the lone warrior on frontline, I'd daresay on the contrary use Reckless Attack scarcely unless/until enemies start avoiding you. Since Ranger seem to hear reason, you may ask him possibly to learn Longstrider and buff you with it when you expect a tougher fight. It will help you catch up with enemies (and I'd pick Mobile instead of PAM at level 1 following the same reasoning, but it works too) . :)

N810

2019-12-02, 12:35 PM

Frankly, with an intelligent DM, expect more status effect spells against your barbarian, Especially the ones that make you roll saves with your mental stats, INT,WIS, CHA. The sort of spells that will take you out of rage. Also be expect to be harassed by enemies out of your melee range (Seriously, take a longbow and some javelins). Realistically, bearbarians only receive like 20% less damage, often multi attack enemies will have like 3 attack and only one of them will have elemental damage, and often it's in addition to physical damage. :/

Pex

2019-12-02, 12:56 PM

MaxWilson

2019-12-02, 01:31 PM

JellyPooga

2019-12-02, 01:42 PM

There is a difference between not being that good and being a trap as your original assertion. Not being that good still means it's good.

It can be a good feature and still be a trap if the ability is misleading (which I believe it is) and other features available are better (which I, again, believe to be so). I don't think Bear Totem is a bad feature at all; only that it's given way more credit than it's due.

Willie the Duck

2019-12-02, 01:46 PM

It's better to just pick up Absorb Elements somehow (Ranger/Wizard/Druid spell)

And sorcerer, it should be mentioned (in case you have more Cha than Int, don't want druid armor restrictions, etc.).

Chaosticket

2019-12-02, 01:56 PM

You have a strange way around maths mate: since when 3 is 37,5% of infinite? XD
Let's recall rage becomes unlimited at level 20, and Expected, well, *expects* to reach level 20 in campaign provided he lives long enough for that. ^^ (which is something I didn't see when writing my reply. Makes the choice much harder ^^).

Barbarian Rage counts.

Level 1, 2 Rage = 200% efficiency
Level 3, 3 Rage = 100% efficiency
Level 6,4 Rage = 66% efficiency
Level 12, 5 Rage = 42% efficiency
Level 17, 6 Rage = 35% efficiency

Level 20, Unlimited Rage, also where you are retiring your character. That is of course if you even reached that point.

This is the third time I brought up the impracticality of judging an entire character class by what is gets by level 20 "Retiring Age"

It's better to just pick up Absorb Elements somehow (Ranger/Wizard/Druid spell), which unlike Bear Totem Rage doesn't interfere with spellcasting, is available almost all the time including out of combat, and doesn't cost you three full class levels.

Absorb Elements is okay, but its a spell that has limited uses per day, only works against 1 damage type, and only for 1 turn. Bear Totem Barbarian Rage equivalent is 10 times that in duration, against every damage type(including Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, Radiant, Necrotic, Force, Poison) except for Psychic. Its just a more efficient ability.

Spells are great, but buff spells in 5th edition are pretty bad because of all the issues with slot limits, shorter duration, non-stacking, and frequently depending on Concentration.

Rage is a better buff than most Buff Spells because you dont have to Concentrate, just attack. People have a good point about Ranged weapons. If you cannot get into melee range, throw your weapon, and Rage Continues.

MaxWilson

2019-12-02, 02:23 PM

It can be a good feature and still be a trap if the ability is misleading (which I believe it is) and other features available are better (which I, again, believe to be so). I don't think Bear Totem is a bad feature at all; only that it's given way more credit than it's due.

It should be mentioned, however, that regular Rage only grants you resistance to B/P/S damage if you're not wearing heavy armor, whereas BarBearian resistance-to-everything-but-psychic has no such restriction. This is probably unintended, but if your DM abides by the strict technicalities of the text, BarBearian Rage is not misleading and arguably not a trap--even though it's still hard to come up with a build where it would matter. Heavily Armored Human Barbearian 3/Warlock 17 in plate armor who invests in Str/Con/Cha instead of Str/Dex/Con?

N810

2019-12-02, 03:07 PM

It should be mentioned, however, that regular Rage only grants you resistance to B/P/S damage if you're not wearing heavy armor, whereas BarBearian resistance-to-everything-but-psychic has no such restriction. This is probably unintended, but if your DM abides by the strict technicalities of the text, BarBearian Rage is not misleading and arguably not a trap--even though it's still hard to come up with a build where it would matter. Heavily Armored Human Barbearian 3/Warlock 17 in plate armor who invests in Str/Con/Cha instead of Str/Dex/Con?

Barbs aren't proficient on Heavy armor.
also there are are some additional penalties.

MaxWilson

2019-12-02, 03:33 PM

Barbs aren't proficient on Heavy armor.

But a Heavily Armored Human Barb 3/Warlock 17 is proficient in heavy armor, which boosts his total AC and removes some MADness.

There are additional penalties but they aren't serious--you lose a tiny bit of bonus damage (+4 per hit at 20th level) which you can make up for using Lifedrinker, and you lose advantage on Strength checks and saving throws. But the Fiendlock temp HP is delicious combined with Rage, and Armor of Agathys synergy is nice as well. Your biggest problem is that you'll have kind of a slow start: it's probably best to go Barb 1 (for Rage and Heavily Armored prereqs) and then pretty much ignore Rage and Barb until you hit at least Warlock 6 (Bladelock Extra Attack), taking GWM along the way, playing as a fairly conventional heavily-armored Bladelock up until then, e.g. Hex + Thirsting Blade or Armor of Agathys + Booming Blade. Then you go back and pick up Barb 2 and Bear 3 by 9th level for Reckless Attack and actually useful Rage, roughly doubling your tankiness. Straight warlock from then on out.

NOMster

2019-12-02, 03:33 PM

It's more about opportunity cost than "isn't good", or the idea that "more Barbarian" isn't as good as more of something else. E.g. you could have been an Ancestral Guardian 3/Fiend Bladelock 6 for tons of temp HP and crowd control, and you wouldn't lose out on any important parts of Barbarian: you could still do exactly the same physical BBEG lockdown that you're doing today, but you'd have more options in fights against magical BBEGs (Counterspell) and ranged BBEGs (flying dragons: blast them or Fly yourself) and non-BBEG hordes (Fear).

1. I'm already getting better temp hp from being a shifter (con+level) and i can do it at the beginning of combat instead of waiting to take out an enemy.
2. You can't cast while raging anyway so locking down the bbeg wouldn't be an option using those features and I would be missing out on a lot: fast movement, my second ASI, spirit shield (which has saved a couple of teammates butts), feral instincts, the additional rages (and rage damage), and brutal critical.
3. With mage slayer, mobile, and a javelin (I don't even really need mage slayer), I can still be effectively doing the same stuff you're looking at (except fear and i can always ask to use my skull splitting as an intimidation tactic). I have made many an enemy cut and run after beheading their amigos. Also, I have teammates who can cast fly on me.

For me, every single level has given something important to being a barbarian. the only one that hasn't made a huge impact on my game is brutal critical but rage damage went up at the same level.

Plus at some point you have to look at what makes sense for a character. barbarian multi classes are good on paper, but really don't thematically make much sense when you go into the magic classes due to the conflict of rage and magic.

Willie the Duck

2019-12-02, 03:39 PM

<objections>

Max specifically said, "hard to come up with a build where it would matter." right before suggesting it. It's an explanation on what kind of build you might ever see such a thing, not a suggestion that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

NOMster

2019-12-02, 03:45 PM

Max specifically said, "hard to come up with a build where it would matter." right before suggesting it. It's an explanation on what kind of build you might ever see such a thing, not a suggestion that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

That was actually after he quoted me so unrelated to my post and as that was in a different post not directed at me, i ignored it and chose to only address the specific bits directed at me.

MaxWilson

2019-12-02, 03:49 PM

1. I'm already getting better temp hp from being a shifter (con+level) and i can do it at the beginning of combat instead of waiting to take out an enemy.

You can't do it at the beginning of combat, unless you're willing to forego Rage. Both Rage and shifting require a bonus action and you've only got one. (If it weren't for this bonus action problem, Barbarian Beasthide Shifters would be pretty cool and attractive, but alas...)

You can't cast while raging anyway so locking down the bbeg wouldn't be an option using those features and I would be missing out on a lot: fast movement, my second ASI, spirit shield (which has saved a couple of teammates butts), feral instincts, the additional rages (and rage damage), and brutal critical.

Additional rage, singular, not rages unfortunately. From level 3 to 9 you go from 3 rages per long rest to 4, and your bonus damage goes from +2 to +3. The ASI is worthwhile and fast movement isn't useless, but brutal critical is worthless and feral instincts is IMO meh. You invested an extra 6 levels compared to a Barblock and basically all you got in return is an ASI, Spirit Shield*, and 33% more rages per day. I'm glad you're happy with your choice but when people say Barbarians gain nothing worthwhile past level 5, that's what we're talking about.

* Spirit Shield would be considerably better if it subtracted damage after accounting for resistance instead of before, but as it is it's basically redundant with Ancestral Protectors at level 3: you're subtracting 1d6 damage at the cost of your reaction. (Yes, yes, there are cases where you get the full 2d6 benefit, but not many cases where it matters.)

Plus at some point you have to look at what makes sense for a character. barbarian multi classes are good on paper, but really don't thematically make much sense when you go into the magic classes due to the conflict of rage and magic.

No argument there. 5E has too many magic users and too much incentive to play a magic user--I can respect a decision to build a nonmagical PC on thematic grounds.

NOMster

2019-12-02, 03:57 PM

You can't do it at the beginning of combat, unless you're willing to forego Rage. Both Rage and shifting require a bonus action and you've only got one. (If it weren't for this bonus action problem, Barbarian Beasthide Shifters would be pretty cool and attractive, but alas...)

you can do it at the beginning of combat if you choose. you can do either first and then on your next turn do the other. the main idea was that you don't have to wait to kill someone but do it whenever and it's based on one of your main stats anyway.

Amechra

2019-12-02, 04:19 PM

* Spirit Shield would be considerably better if it subtracted damage after accounting for resistance instead of before, but as it is it's basically redundant with Ancestral Protectors at level 3: you're subtracting 1d6 damage at the cost of your reaction. (Yes, yes, there are cases where you get the full 2d6 benefit, but not many cases where it matters.)

I mean, there's also the fact that you can use Spirit Shield to reduce damage from enemies that you didn't debuff with Ancestral Protectors (because you can only apply that debuff to one creature per round), or to reduce damage from non-attack sources (Ancestral Protectors only gives resistance to damage from attacks. If the creature you debuffed decided to cast Fireball instead, your allies wouldn't have resistance against the damage).

Pex

2019-12-02, 04:49 PM

It's better to just pick up Absorb Elements somehow (Ranger/Wizard/Druid spell), which unlike Bear Totem Rage doesn't interfere with spellcasting, is available almost all the time including out of combat, and doesn't cost you three full class levels.

That's another way of doing it which has its own limitations and perks. It's the easier option for those who want to be dedicated spellcasters, but some people may not want to be a spellcaster just because they don't want to. Moon druids couldn't cast Absorb Elements while wildshaped so it wouldn't help. Bear barbarian is the way to go if these players want the damage resistance. It's not a question of being better but of personal taste and mood of the moment when creating and advancing your character.

HiveStriker

2019-12-02, 04:53 PM

Barbarian Rage counts.

Level 1, 2 Rage = 200% efficiency
Level 3, 3 Rage = 100% efficiency
Level 6,4 Rage = 66% efficiency
Level 12, 5 Rage = 42% efficiency
Level 17, 6 Rage = 35% efficiency

Level 20, Unlimited Rage, also where you are retiring your character. That is of course if you even reached that point.

This is the third time I brought up the impracticality of judging an entire character class by what is gets by level 20 "Retiring Age"

Absorb Elements is okay, but its a spell that has limited uses per day, only works against 1 damage type, and only for 1 turn. Bear Totem Barbarian Rage equivalent is 10 times that in duration, against every damage type(including Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, Radiant, Necrotic, Force, Poison) except for Psychic. Its just a more efficient ability.

Spells are great, but buff spells in 5th edition are pretty bad because of all the issues with slot limits, shorter duration, non-stacking, and frequently depending on Concentration.

Rage is a better buff than most Buff Spells because you dont have to Concentrate, just attack. People have a good point about Ranged weapons. If you cannot get into melee range, throw your weapon, and Rage Continues.
You should avoid being condescending.
I NEVER advise people on "target level 20 characters" unless they themselves say they will (probably) reach it.

Which was the case of OP.

As for the "retiring" concept, it's irrevelant. You may stop playing in your games when you reach level 20 (which is... I mean, what the point?). But in most games people will play a good share of sessions at level 20 specifically because they can FINALLY enjoy it.

NOMster

2019-12-02, 04:54 PM

Okay this was added after I'd posted...

Additional rage, singular, not rages unfortunately. From level 3 to 9 you go from 3 rages per long rest to 4, and your bonus damage goes from +2 to +3. The ASI is worthwhile and fast movement isn't useless, but brutal critical is worthless and feral instincts is IMO meh. You invested an extra 6 levels compared to a Barblock and basically all you got in return is an ASI, Spirit Shield*, and 33% more rages per day. I'm glad you're happy with your choice but when people say Barbarians gain nothing worthwhile past level 5, that's what we're talking about.

I guess it's up to whether or not you actually want to play a Barbarian (capital B). If you do, feral instinct is amazing and can be the difference in a bbeg doing huge damage to your casters or being regulated heavily or being taken out of the fight a lot sooner. As far as rage, We're talking about a static +1 damage for every hit, every encounter. That's as good as a +1 to your weapon and nobody is turning that down in 5e. Fast movement is incredible paired with the mobile feat. Spirit shield works on all damage not just attacks, has saved several of my party members from going down and will become damage dealing soon enough.

It just makes me wonder how many of the people that think a barbarian is only worth 3 levels have really explored what all you can do with what you're given and stay in theme. Of course I also don't see the draw of multi classing as far as what I'd get from it that would matter.

Expected

2019-12-02, 05:04 PM

I'm greatly enjoying the amount of discussion we've had thus far in this thread!

@Amechra: In the other thread about the Monk, you mentioned rather having a poorly played Monk as opposed to a poorly played Bard--I chuckled at that.
@HiveStriker: Thank you for your detailed responses--they are helpful as always.

The primary power is the damage, which is always useful. The free revival is almost more of a ribbon. It's pretty rare for a Barbarian to die in general, and often, that'll be after everyone else is dead. But 1d6+1/2 lvl. is nothing to sneeze at. You've basically got caveat-free Sneak Attack Lite on a solid melee chassis with Extra Attack and Rage Bonus as well.

I agree. Zealot seems to be the high DPR Primal Path (Berserker is the best in a no-feat game) and the bonus radiant damage applies to thrown/ranged weapons x1/turn, which helps DPR in instances where melee attacks are impossible.

It looks like a fun party.

A melee ranger, yapping bard, arcana cleric, and barbarian.

Damage dealing will depend on the party as a whole working together.

You have 2 roles. Draw aggro and kill. Reckless attack and GWM.

You really have tough choice. Arcana clerics with booming blade can do quite well in melee but this guy seems like a blaster.

The ranger feels like dual scimitars type.

And a bard.

You have your work cut out. GWM and reckless attack will be crucial. So I see the why bear totem is so appealing.

You know for this party I think OP is spot on.
Bear for total damage mitigation.
Zealot for some extra damage.

Ancestor would be awesome. But you are the threat for the enemy.

So with "this" party in mind. Bear totem.

Because as an enemy I'm throwing the kitchen sink at you. And it's on fire and poisoned and has necrotic stuff all over it.

After Amechra convinced me to take a look at the Ancestral Guardian, I'm really liking it and it would tons of fun to RP, but like you said, I am the threat to the enemy; my party members are the opposite of optimized and make bad tactical decisions during combat. A huge reason why I'm considering Bear/Eagle/Eagle is for the additional resistances (like JellyPooga said, I already get resistance to B/P/S), no longer having disadvantage on Perception checks in the dark (I'm Human and we fight at night sometimes), and the ability to fly while raging (which will help me reach and kill flying enemies, especially if I take Mobile for the additional 10ft and disengage, which synergizes nicely with PAM+Sentinel).

I'm hoping that the Bard helps, at least, by casting Haste on me or something because I know now from prior experience that he will not heal me or even help prevent death (he would be the worst Cleric; would probably only take damage spells) but with his track record, it's probably best to just pretend he's not there. As for the Arcana Cleric, he could easily be in the front with me with scale mail and a shield + BB/GFB, but is choosing to instead attack from afar (which is fine). The Ranger means well and I trust him to help if I need it, but he's new and still learning how to play, and has yet to build an efficient character (again, not a problem).

Also, I'm not sure who mentioned it, but I need to make liberal use of Reckless Attack because we are using flanking rules (so the enemy almost always has advantage because I'm the only true melee) and I need the advantage if I am going to rely on GWM to increase my DPR.

Frankly, with an intelligent DM, expect more status effect spells against your barbarian, Especially the ones that make you roll saves with your mental stats, INT,WIS, CHA. The sort of spells that will take you out of rage. Also be expect to be harassed by enemies out of your melee range (Seriously, take a longbow and some javelins). Realistically, bearbarians only receive like 20% less damage, often multi attack enemies will have like 3 attack and only one of them will have elemental damage, and often it's in addition to physical damage. :/

Exactly, and that's a major reason why I was considering the Zealot--so I can reroll a failed saving throw x1/Rage. That and Rage Beyond Death (along with my wishlist magic items--a Cloak+Ring of Protection) I can be somewhat self-sufficient (except for flying enemies). If I instead choose Barbearian, I'm going to start with 13/15 Wis and take Res: Wis.

There is a difference between not being that good and being a trap as your original assertion. Not being that good still means it's good.

Barbarian, regardless of subclass, is not very multiclass friendly due to needing to rage to use its features. Certainly Reckless Attack and Advantage on DX saves are nice and don't require raging, but multiclassing barbarian means you want to rage and get the abilities that come with it. Anyone who multiclasses into barbarian needs to be able to rage and not lose stuff. Fighter can do it easily. Paladin can since you can still smite while raging. Rogue is unusual, but you can still sneak attack. Moon Druids can since they aren't casting spells anyway while wild shaped. They lose the ability to cast a spell to concentrate then wildshape, but they can still expend spell slots to heal. Raging does not prevent monks from spending ki, but of course ki spent to cast spells won't work. So yes, some people find worth in multiclassing 3 levels of barbarian to get the rage feature. Resistance to all damage except psychic has value.

It does and I see JellyPooga's reasoning for their opinion. At least in my case, I do not plan on multiclassing (the capstone is way too good) so it doesn't affect me at all. It still is interesting to read other's opinions, though.

MaxWilson

2019-12-02, 05:08 PM

I mean, there's also the fact that you can use Spirit Shield to reduce damage from enemies that you didn't debuff with Ancestral Protectors (because you can only apply that debuff to one creature per round), or to reduce damage from non-attack sources (Ancestral Protectors only gives resistance to damage from attacks. If the creature you debuffed decided to cast Fireball instead, your allies wouldn't have resistance against the damage).

<<Yes, yes, there are cases where you get the full 2d6 benefit, but not many cases where it matters.>>

These are the cases I was talking about. Spending your reaction to reduce a Fireball's damage from 28 HP to 21 HP, for one creature, while the others get hit for the full 28 HP each, is not something that matters enough to justify the level investment. If you're up against a spellcasting enemy you'd still rather be a non-Raging Barblock so you could just flat-out Counterspell the Fireball, nullifying the whole 28 HP x [number of PCs] damage instead of just 2d6.

NOMster

2019-12-02, 05:27 PM

<<Yes, yes, there are cases where you get the full 2d6 benefit, but not many cases where it matters.>>

These are the cases I was talking about. Spending your reaction to reduce a Fireball's damage from 28 HP to 21 HP, for one creature, while the others get hit for the full 28 HP each, is not something that matters enough to justify the level investment. If you're up against a spellcasting enemy you'd still rather be a non-Raging Barblock so you could just flat-out Counterspell the Fireball, nullifying the whole 28 HP x [number of PCs] damage instead of just 2d6.

I guess party composition has to play a role. The sorcerer has counterspell so I don't have to worry about that. Also your equation is assuming that everyone fails their save.

MaxWilson

2019-12-02, 05:40 PM

I guess party composition has to play a role. The sorcerer has counterspell so I don't have to worry about that. Also your equation is assuming that everyone fails their save.

I haven't seen your table so I don't know how likely to the sorcerer is to need his reaction for Shield against missile fire, at your table, or how likely he is to run out of spell slots for Counterspelling. Maybe you're right and another Counterspeller wouldn't help, but then we're back to the original observation that spending your reaction to save 1d6 damage is not impressive.

(There are a couple of other cases where you get the full 2d6 damage reduction, e.g. fighting a bunch of monsters instead of just one, but again there are relatively few cases where Spirit Shield matters and that is unfortunate. It would have been better if Spirit Shield stacked directly with Ancestral Protectors, taking 2d6 damage off after accounting for resistance.)

NOMster

2019-12-02, 06:09 PM

I haven't seen your table so I don't know how likely to the sorcerer is to need his reaction for Shield against missile fire

He won't need it because I'm protecting him :)

(There are a couple of other cases where you get the full 2d6 damage reduction, e.g. fighting a bunch of monsters instead of just one, but again there are relatively few cases where Spirit Shield matters and that is unfortunate. It would have been better if Spirit Shield stacked directly with Ancestral Protectors, taking 2d6 damage off after accounting for resistance.)

I don't get this. I always roll 2d6 and it does come off after resistance and again has saved several of them from going down at crucial moments. So it matters a great deal.

*edit* I didn't realize this was a house rule by my DM that resistance happens first. lucky me.

Expected

2019-12-02, 06:16 PM

@MaxWilson and NOMster: I do value Counterspell, Shield, and Absorb Elements and they happen to be my favorite use of reactions for any caster that can learn/prepare them. They would be interesting in a multiclass build, but as for me, I will leave countering spells to our casters because I'd much rather do a PAM+Sentinel+GWM reaction OA. In fact, with Mobile and being surrounded by 2-3 enemies (not more than 3 enemies though) at level 5+ I can run in/attack 1-3 times at the enemies around me (attack, extra attack, and bonus action attack from PAM) move back so they are out of my 10ft reach (while still being between them and my backline) and forcing them to provoke an OA from PAM; if I hit, they no longer move and cannot attack in melee.

NOMster

2019-12-02, 06:19 PM

Chaosticket

2019-12-02, 06:32 PM

MaxWilson

2019-12-02, 06:48 PM

He won't need it because I'm protecting him :)

I don't get this. I always roll 2d6 and it does come off after resistance and again has saved several of them from going down at crucial moments. So it matters a great deal.

*edit* I didn't realize this was a house rule by my DM that resistance happens first. lucky me.

Aha, so you're getting double value out of Spirit Shield. With that change it is pretty decent and I see why you like it. FWIW I would have liked it if the way your DM is running it was the official way. It's easy to imagine a fight where a 9th level party is fighting e.g. a CR 11 Efreeti, and between disadvantage and resistance to his attacks, he's fairly likely to land only one 10-15 HP worth of damage per round, which then gets cut by 2d6 down to 3-8 HP of damage per round... which makes the Barbarian feel awesome and relevant. It would only get better as the feature increases to 3d6 and 4d6 per round and the reflective force damage comes online.

It still wouldn't be that powerful frankly because 2d6 damage is still just 2d6 damage, but the feeling of rendering a mighty Efreet almost helpless to do anything but face the Barbarian directly... I can see how that feeling of empowerment must be nice, against a single big monster.

djreynolds

2019-12-03, 02:59 AM

Bear 3rd, eagle 6th, eagle 14th...looks good. Characters in the end have to be game and party specific.

It is the best this about 5E is the party coming together.

In a campaign I DM now, the party has a GWM paladin and a wolf totem barbarian... it makes sense for that party

HiveStriker

2019-12-03, 05:24 AM

Beware the Haste spell. It has a major drawback on anyone it is used on. If it expires for any reason it freezes your Next turn.

Its benefits aren't that good because of that combined with a limit on just ONE attack, no extras attacks.

Its just another reason why Rogue 2 is good.

I'm sorry your Bard isn't helping you much. That Player could be a massive asset to you, like Bardic Inspiration on your Save Throws or using control spells on anything you cant bash.
You're right to stress the drawback of "Haste ending" especially if it ends early because the Bard went and did a crazy thing exposing him to a nasty concentration save.

However, I very, *very* strongly disagree on the assessement that "its benefits aren't that good".
You forget that the action can be used on Attack OR Disengage OR Dash.
You forget that it adds a +2 to AC AND Dexterity saves.
You forget that it doubles base speed, free of charge.

On Expected's character, it means that, before he gets Mobile*, he alreasy has the assurance of being able to Disengage "for free" whenever he gets surrounded "too much". With free double speed, he should be able to reach enemies he wants to strike in most situations (especially with the +10 feet from class).
Whenever he doesn't need to use extra action on Dash/Disengage (which should happen very often once he gets Mobile), he can make an extra weapon attack with advantage (Reckless) and possibly GWM benefit. That's a potential extra 33% (normal) or 25% (if crit that turn enabling extra attack) every turn.
Hidden benefit: sometimes as a Barb, you got a crit with GWM so you get an extra attack... But you killed your current quarry with that crit and no enemy is close enough to make a full weapon attack because you used your speed already. That's another case where extra speed counts.

And once he gets Eagle, he can easily make unsuspected blitz rush at backline casters or flyers.
So Haste is definitely a great option... IF the Bard does not waste everything by exposing himself needlessly. Otherwise, certainly that tactic would backfire and possibly end bad.

* By the way @Expected you are speaking of Mobile + PAM + Sentinel, so you're thinking about level 8 character then? I still think Mobile is more valuable taken early then because you don't get extra speed neither possible Haste yet and you need to be able to attack to keep rage going AND be able to move away if things get too hairy, because you don't have that much HP before level 4 - even as a Barb-...

Also, Expected, you may suggest your Bard to learn Enlarge. That will make you stay relevant in all Shoving/Grappling related tactics, including on Huge enemies (especially for flyers, making a Dragon fall prone -if you get a tad lucky of course- feels very satistying because you stop his move, deals it fall damage, and make it an easy prey for your melee pals -or you Xd-).

AdAstra

2019-12-03, 09:23 AM

Aha, so you're getting double value out of Spirit Shield. With that change it is pretty decent and I see why you like it. FWIW I would have liked it if the way your DM is running it was the official way. It's easy to imagine a fight where a 9th level party is fighting e.g. a CR 11 Efreeti, and between disadvantage and resistance to his attacks, he's fairly likely to land only one 10-15 HP worth of damage per round, which then gets cut by 2d6 down to 3-8 HP of damage per round... which makes the Barbarian feel awesome and relevant. It would only get better as the feature increases to 3d6 and 4d6 per round and the reflective force damage comes online.

It still wouldn't be that powerful frankly because 2d6 damage is still just 2d6 damage, but the feeling of rendering a mighty Efreet almost helpless to do anything but face the Barbarian directly... I can see how that feeling of empowerment must be nice, against a single big monster.

I think the main purpose of the 2d6 is to mitigate damage from non-marked creatures. Like say some archer gets a lucky shot in through the Wizard's Shield, you can reduce that. It's a lot less useful against the marked creature, but you don't have to use it that way.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 09:57 AM

I think the main purpose of the 2d6 is to mitigate damage from non-marked creatures. Like say some archer gets a lucky shot in through the Wizard's Shield, you can reduce that. It's a lot less useful against the marked creature, but you don't have to use it that way.

But then you're probably fighting a bunch of archers, and you've only got one reaction, so the other archers will still paste the wizard. If you for some reason are fighting one CR 11 Efreet and one CR 1/4 goblin, then sure, Spirit Shield will nullify the goblin's lucky shots, but who cares?

NOMster

2019-12-03, 10:10 AM

AdAstra

2019-12-03, 10:31 AM

But then you're probably fighting a bunch of archers, and you've only got one reaction, so the other archers will still paste the wizard. If you for some reason are fighting one CR 11 Efreet and one CR 1/4 goblin, then sure, Spirit Shield will nullify the goblin's lucky shots, but who cares?

You only have to use the Spirit Shield on particularly important or squishy targets. 7 average HP isn't much to you, but it means quite a bit to a Wizard or Sorcerer. If a Fireball lands on your helpless mage concentrating on Haste for you, that 2d6 could help make that Concentration Save a little easier, maybe even keep them from getting knocked out, saving everyone a lot of grief. A group of Gnolls fires some arrows, and one manages to get through the cleric's armor. Your Spirit Shield might reduce the damage by enough to keep them from having to make a Concentration Save altogether. Is it the best feature ever? Nah, but compared to other Path features at level 6 (aside from Berserker), which are usually on the lower end of power, it's quite good.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 10:45 AM

Also it's important to remember the other things that continuing in the barbarian path gives you along with spirit shield such as the fast movement, the feral instinct and so on. you are very very hard to ignore and you get to keep that big ass D12 Hit die at every level.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 10:59 AM

You only have to use the Spirit Shield on particularly important or squishy targets. 7 average HP isn't much to you, but it means quite a bit to a Wizard or Sorcerer. If a Fireball lands on your helpless mage concentrating on Haste for you, that 2d6 could help make that Concentration Save a little easier, maybe even keep them from getting knocked out, saving everyone a lot of grief. A group of Gnolls fires some arrows, and one manages to get through the cleric's armor. Your Spirit Shield might reduce the damage by enough to keep them from having to make a Concentration Save altogether. Is it the best feature ever? Nah, but compared to other Path features at level 6 (aside from Berserker), which are usually on the lower end of power, it's quite good.

I suppose that's the best-possible argument in favor of Spirit Shield, but it's not a great argument in favor of Barb.

Also it's important to remember the other things that continuing in the barbarian path gives you along with spirit shield such as the fast movement, the feral instinct and so on.

Then you compare that package of so-so features with the features you'd get from taking another class entirely, and then you understand why many people don't have a high opinion of Barb 6+. Fast movement ~= first level spell slot (Longstrider), feral instinct = situational damage boost (when fights start at close range and you otherwise would have lost initiative), Relentless Rage = situational toughness boost (against small numbers of tough foes), etc.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 11:24 AM

I suppose that's the best-possible argument in favor of Spirit Shield, but it's not a great argument in favor of Barb.

Then you compare that package of so-so features with the features you'd get from taking another class entirely, and then you understand why many people don't have a high opinion of Barb 6+. Fast movement ~= first level spell slot (Longstrider), feral instinct = situational damage boost (when fights start at close range and you otherwise would have lost initiative), Relentless Rage = situational toughness boost (against small numbers of tough foes), etc.

Longstrider is nowhere near as good as all the time fast movement. (besides that your warlock doesn't get it). and even if he does, he has to use an action to cast it on himself and then enter rage after which he can't cast anything else. by the time that happens, my barbarian (going first in combat), has already ran in, raged, hit 2x, and now the bad guys are focused on me and all my hit points from those d12s.

Obviously everything is situational no matter what you do, but the idea that a 3rd level barbarians features are the only good ones is way off base in a team oriented game.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 11:41 AM

Longstrider is nowhere near as good as all the time fast movement. (besides that your warlock doesn't get it). and even if he does, he has to use an action to cast it on himself and then enter rage after which he can't cast anything else.

What are you talking about? Longstrider is an hour-long no-concentration spell. It's not a spell you cast during combat, it's a buff you get someone to cast on you before combat.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 11:47 AM

What are you talking about? Longstrider is an hour-long no-concentration spell. It's not a spell you cast during combat, it's a buff you get someone to cast on you before combat.

takes an action to cast. I thought you were talking about the barbarian having that instead of fast movement to cast on himself. anyway, if someone else is casting it on you, that still applies. my wizard can cast it on me and i'm moving even faster now. or he can cast it on someone else because i don't need it.

TheUser

2019-12-03, 11:49 AM

Is it the best feature ever? Nah, but compared to other Path features at level 6 (aside from Berserker), which are usually on the lower end of power, it's quite good.

Bruh. How much do I have to underscore the value of 500 extra pounds of carry weight / 1000 pounds of push, lift, drag?

You can just push heavy things over onto creatures and their stuck or worse, crushed.

The average wooden horse drawn carriage is 400 pounds.

A blacksmith's anvil can be up to 500

What about 2ft cubed of rock? 1000+ pounds if it's granite

AdAstra

2019-12-03, 11:52 AM

I would say 6 is still worth it most of the time. It's definitely worth it for Ancestral Guardians, Berserkers, Zealots, since all of those offer quite powerful and rare defensive abilities. 7 is also not a waste since winning initiative is valuable for most characters, and being surprised can be devastating to a Barbarian if they lose too much HP while they're not raging (though realistically, you'll still most likely be fine).

If you are going with a Barbarian multiclass, can't go wrong with Cleric. With a Barb's need for decent Str, Dex, and Con, you can really only afford to have one mental stat high enough to multiclass. Of the mental stats, Wisdom is great for skills and saves. My recommendation would probably be Light or Life Cleric. You can still use Channel Divinity while you're raging so Radiance of the Dawn gains some more value for clearing out hordes of weak foes and Preserve Life is a nice heal if your backline gets mangled.

Spirit Guardians, Rage, and charge into the fray. Enemies constantly take damage while in your proximity, and have a harder time getting away from you. Con save proficiency means you'll rarely lose it to hits. Go with Zealot for that holy warrior feel and some protection from mental saves, or Ancestral Guardian for some more protective abilities.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 11:55 AM

saucerhead

2019-12-03, 11:57 AM

Spirit Guardians, Rage, and charge into the fray. Enemies constantly take damage while in your proximity, and have a harder time getting away from you. Con save proficiency means you'll rarely lose it to hits. Go with Zealot for that holy warrior feel and some protection from mental saves, or Ancestral Guardian for some more protective abilities.

It is unfortunate, but Spirit guardians is a concentration spell and will end the second you rage.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 12:05 PM

takes an action to cast. I thought you were talking about the barbarian having that instead of fast movement to cast on himself. anyway, if someone else is casting it on you, that still applies. my wizard can cast it on me and i'm moving even faster now. or he can cast it on someone else because i don't need it.

But the real question is, how often do people actually cast it in practice? If it happens frequently, that's evidence that fast movement is important and valued. If not, then not.

IMO it's undervalued by most people--fast movement is one of the better Barb features. But it is also easily replicable via Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, Mobile, a horse, etc., and it's also something which requires party coordination to get real value out of.

P.S. You know what would make Barb a worthwhile class? Give the option at 11th level to swap out Relentless Rage for Extra Attack 2, just like a fighter. The Barb's single biggest problem in Tier 3+ is lack of offensive output, but scaling up the number of attacks by 1 instantly makes Rage damage bonus, Reckless Attack, and the capstone all ~50% more valuable. It's still quite different than the fighter (Barb is melee oriented) and doesn't invade the fighter's niche but with this change it's no longer anemic in Tier 3-4.

AdAstra

2019-12-03, 12:12 PM

It is unfortunate, but Spirit guardians is a concentration spell and will end the second you rage.

Wait crap forgot and mixed it up with Wildshape.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 12:18 PM

But the real question is, how often do people actually cast it in practice? If it happens frequently, that's evidence that fast movement is important and valued. If not, then not.

IMO it's undervalued by most people--fast movement is one of the better Barb features. But it is also easily replicable via Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, Mobile, a horse, etc., and it's also something which requires party coordination to get real value out of.

but it's not replicated by those because it's always on and those are not. they each require some sort of planning or extra action, money, something. any spell you can cast on your self or ability you can get from MC'ing into a spellcasting class, you can get from team mates or potions if you have the mindset to plan. But fast movement is just there and adds to what you are meant to be the best at. just like all the other features you get along the way. maybe it's just a difference of philosophy of what a character should be doing. a barbarian is just that and doesn't need anything from any other class to be a better barbarian. you can add your warlock business, but now you've taken away from what he can do as a barbarian in order to get those things. your not getting a better barbarian for that trade though. your getting a warlock who can rage sometimes when he doesn't want to cast any spells but will never be as good at melee tanking as a straight barbarian.

Amechra

2019-12-03, 12:29 PM

But the real question is, how often do people actually cast it in practice? If it happens frequently, that's evidence that fast movement is important and valued. If not, then not.

IMO it's undervalued by most people--fast movement is one of the better Barb features. But it is also easily replicable via Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, Mobile, a horse, etc., and it's also something which requires party coordination to get real value out of.

P.S. You know what would make Barb a worthwhile class? Give the option at 11th level to swap out Relentless Rage for Extra Attack 2, just like a fighter. The Barb's single biggest problem in Tier 3+ is lack of offensive output, but scaling up the number of attacks by 1 instantly makes Rage damage bonus, Reckless Attack, and the capstone all ~50% more valuable. It's still quite different than the fighter (Barb is melee oriented) and doesn't invade the fighter's niche but with this change it's no longer anemic in Tier 3-4.

I'm wondering how solid the Barbarian would be if you rolled the crit-range increases from the Champion into it? Getting bonus dice from Brutal Critical 27.75% of the time when you're smacking people around with Reckless Attack is nothing to sneeze at.

Honestly, I think the Barbarian could benefit from getting a higher-level feature that let them straight-up spend Rage uses to autocrit. Maybe make it cost a bonus action so that it isn't too insane with Great Weapon Master / Barbarian 20.

GlenSmash!

2019-12-03, 12:30 PM

But the real question is, how often do people actually cast it in practice? If it happens frequently, that's evidence P.S. You know what would make Barb a worthwhile class? Give the option at 11th level to swap out Relentless Rage for Extra Attack 2, just like a fighter. The Barb's single biggest problem in Tier 3+ is lack of offensive output, but scaling up the number of attacks by 1 instantly makes Rage damage bonus, Reckless Attack, and the capstone all ~50% more valuable. It's still quite different than the fighter (Barb is melee oriented) and doesn't invade the fighter's niche but with this change it's no longer anemic in Tier 3-4.

In the recent UA survey I suggested to WotC that they should be testing alternate features for Brutal Critical. That's a real waste of design space IMHO.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 12:39 PM

In the recent UA survey I suggested to WotC that they should be testing alternate features for Brutal Critical. That's a real waste of design space IMHO.

Eric Likes this

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 12:41 PM

but it's not replicated by those because it's always on and those are not.

Not true. Mobile feat is always on, and it's substantially better than Barb's fast movement. (Additionally, Expeditious Retreat is usually available with your bonus action as long as you have spell slots left, and it is also much faster than Barb's fast movement.)

They do cost more as well as being better, which is why Longstrider is a better/simpler comparison, since it's actually cheaper than Fast Movement (doesn't cost a level). Any time you anticipate combat, you can Longstrider in advance.

they each require some sort of planning or extra action, money, something. any spell you can cast on your self or ability you can get from MC'ing into a spellcasting class, you can get from team mates or potions if you have the mindset to plan. But fast movement is just there and adds to what you are meant to be the best at. just like all the other features you get along the way. maybe it's just a difference of philosophy of what a character should be doing. a barbarian is just that and doesn't need anything from any other class to be a better barbarian. you can add your warlock business, but now you've taken away from what he can do as a barbarian in order to get those things. your not getting a better barbarian for that trade though. your getting a warlock who can rage sometimes when he doesn't want to cast any spells but will never be as good at melee tanking as a straight barbarian.

Actually he's better at tanking than a straight Barbarian due to all the temp HP. Put both Barbarians up against a horde of minions and tell me who's still alive at the end.

AdAstra

2019-12-03, 12:41 PM

In the recent UA survey I suggested to WotC that they should be testing alternate features for Brutal Critical. That's a real waste of design space IMHO.

I think it could be nice, but like Indomitable, it's just not enough for a class feature that takes up multiple levels. There needs to be something extra there, or the feature needs to be stronger.

N810

2019-12-03, 12:41 PM

but wouldn't that make berserker obsolete ? :/

NOMster

2019-12-03, 12:42 PM

I'm wondering how solid the Barbarian would be if you rolled the crit-range increases from the Champion into it? Getting bonus dice from Brutal Critical 27.75% of the time when you're smacking people around with Reckless Attack is nothing to sneeze at.

Honestly, I think the Barbarian could benefit from getting a higher-level feature that let them straight-up spend Rage uses to autocrit. Maybe make it cost a bonus action so that it isn't too insane with Great Weapon Master / Barbarian 20.

GWF is pretty great too and is equal to a pretty big jump in damage on a barb. I'd Homebrewed a feat to give just that but I didn't add the increased crit range.

Daphne

2019-12-03, 12:44 PM

I think it could be nice, but like Indomitable, it's just not enough for a class feature that takes up multiple levels. There needs to be something extra there, or the feature needs to be stronger.

Indomitable is such a underwhelming feature, it should have been an auto-save.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 01:00 PM

Indomitable is such a underwhelming feature, it should have been an auto-save.

Agreed. If you want to replicate the feel of classic AD&D Fighters who had terrific saves at high levels, Indomitable should have either been an auto-save or been per-short-rest.

GlenSmash!

2019-12-03, 01:12 PM

but wouldn't that make berserker obsolete ? :/

What would?

N810

2019-12-03, 01:31 PM

What would?

Originally Posted by GlenSmash!
In the recent UA survey I suggested to WotC that they should be testing alternate features for Brutal Critical. That's a real waste of design space IMHO.

GlenSmash!

2019-12-03, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by GlenSmash!
In the recent UA survey I suggested to WotC that they should be testing alternate features for Brutal Critical. That's a real waste of design space IMHO.

How does replacing Brutal Critical make Berserker obsolete?

This would only be true is the replacement was activated on a bonus action. Specifically a bonus action attack.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 01:45 PM

Not true. Mobile feat is always on, and it's substantially better than Barb's fast movement. (Additionally, Expeditious Retreat is usually available with your bonus action as long as you have spell slots left, and it is also much faster than Barb's fast movement.)

They do cost more as well as being better, which is why Longstrider is a better/simpler comparison, since it's actually cheaper than Fast Movement (doesn't cost a level). Any time you anticipate combat, you can Longstrider in advance.

Actually he's better at tanking than a straight Barbarian due to all the temp HP. Put both Barbarians up against a horde of minions and tell me who's still alive at the end.

Mobile can be taken by the barb without giving up anything so that's kind of an invalid point. Mine has mobile in fact and stacked with fast movement, it's mind blowing. no spell slots needed and anyway expeditious retreat is concentration, so no rage for you. as far as the other, you have to be anticipating combat. not so with fast movement. it's there already and you're always ready to go because of feral instinct.

against a horde he still wouldn't be better than a straight barb because temp hp doesn't stack and all his d8s are going to wear out once his 2 rages are gone even with the temp hp. considering my character with maxed con and a barblock with maxed cha...

average HP rolled for a 20th barbarian 275.5. +27 temp Hp from shifter and can rage all day for endless resistance.
average HP rolled for a 3/17 barblock is 199.5 +22 temp hp when you bring one down. can rage twice a day and then it's full damage for the rest.

barblock guy has to bring down 5 enemies to compete with the base HP and he has to do it exactly when his temp hp drops to zero each time and he has to be raging which means he can't benefit from his own spells.
while he's using his first action calling his weapon and his bonus action to rage, the straight barbarian has already downed two of the enemies and moved to a 3rd. next round my guy shifts for temp HP. Now he gets a BA attack from some other feature, then by the 3rd round, he's hitting 3 times with +11 static damage while the other guy has already taken hits from a full round before being able to try to kill someone to get his temp Hp going.

Now, you could open with casting a spell if they're dumb and all huddled up to take out several of them first and get your temp hp before going into rage. But, you still have to use an action to call the weapon if it's an unexpected encounter and cast any spells you want before going into rage to get the extra hp that you consider one of the only valuable options a barbarian offers. for each of those rounds your taking full damage and that 199 is going down down down.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 02:30 PM

Mobile can be taken by the barb without giving up anything so that's kind of an invalid point.

When you say Mobile isn't on all the time, it's valid to point out that that isn't true.

Mine has mobile in fact and stacked with fast movement, it's mind blowing. no spell slots needed and anyway expeditious retreat is concentration, so no rage for you.

Which is exactly why I didn't mention Expeditious Retreat for the Barblock*--I only mentioned it w/rt the general point about fast movement being easily replicable. You're telling me things I already know and expect you to already know too.

* Not that it's useless for a Barblock, and I always take it--I just didn't want to get into an argument with you about under what circumstances to use Rage instead of Expeditious Retreat.

as far as the other, you have to be anticipating combat. not so with fast movement. it's there already and you're always ready to go because of feral instinct.

If you're going in a dungeon, or infiltrating an enemy base, or negotiating with fierce nomads, you're probably anticipating combat enough to at least prepare for it. If fast movement is important to you, that will include casting cheap 1 hour no-concentration spells like Longstrider. On the other hand, if you're resting or reading books in a library or dancing at a ball, you're probably not anticipating combat. How many class levels are you willing to give up to have faster movement even when you're resting or reading books in a library or dancing at a ball?

against a horde he still wouldn't be better than a straight barb because temp hp doesn't stack and all his d8s are going to wear out once his 2 rages are gone even with the temp hp. considering my character with maxed con and a barblock with maxed cha...

This is wrong. If you're a 9th level Barbarian non-Recklessly fighting a melee horde of orcs, say, taking 8 attacks per turn at +5 for d12+3/2, you're taking ~17 HP of damage per turn after accounting for Rage. Con 14 Fiend Barblock will have 74 HP + 15 Armor of Agathys temp HP. Con 14 pure Barb will have 86 HP plus an extra ASI. Fiend Barblock gains ~9 temp HP every time he kills an orc. Pure Barb is going to be dead within ~5 rounds, but Fiend Barblock will still be alive at about half health.

barblock guy has to bring down 5 enemies to compete with the base HP and he has to do it exactly when his temp hp drops to zero each time and he has to be raging which means he can't benefit from his own spells.

Unless they're non-concentration spells like AoA and Fire Shield. (Spellcasting instead of Raging may be a better idea in some cases, but right now we're only talking about Raging.)

while he's using his first action calling his weapon and his bonus action to rage, the straight barbarian has already downed two of the enemies and moved to a 3rd. next round my guy shifts for temp HP. Now he gets a BA attack from some other feature, then by the 3rd round, he's hitting 3 times with +11 static damage while the other guy has already taken hits from a full round before being able to try to kill someone to get his temp Hp going.

If the Warlock has to waste his first action calling his weapon instead of just unsheathing it, then the PCs must have been disarmed somehow, which means the Barbarian is fighting with his fists or an improvised weapon. Otherwise though the Barblock and the Barb will both behave identically on the first round: they'll both down 1-2 enemies and move on to a second or third. Then eight orcs will hit them back, which means the pure Barb will take ~17 HP of damage and the Barblock will take ~2 real HP of damage kill ~3 more orcs and get back ~10 temp HP from the final kill, the one that uses up AoA. Barblock is now down 2 real HP and 5 temp HP from where he started, after killing ~5 orcs, and the pure Barb is down 17 HP and has killed ~2 orcs.

It only gets worse from there for the pure Barb. He'll be dead long before the Barblock.

sithlordnergal

2019-12-03, 03:02 PM

Bruh. How much do I have to underscore the value of 500 extra pounds of carry weight / 1000 pounds of push, lift, drag?

You can just push heavy things over onto creatures and their stuck or worse, crushed.

The average wooden horse drawn carriage is 400 pounds.

A blacksmith's anvil can be up to 500

What about 2ft cubed of rock? 1000+ pounds if it's granite

I mean...it is technically useful, but only if your DM worries about carrying capacity. None of my DMs care about carrying capacity, and neither do I. While we will question if an 8 strength wizard can lift a Large creature, we strangely don't concern ourselves with the same wizard carrying ten sets of full plate.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 03:06 PM

I mean...it is technically useful, but only if your DM worries about carrying capacity. None of my DMs care about carrying capacity, and neither do I. While we will question if an 8 strength wizard can lift a Large creature, we strangely don't concern ourselves with the same wizard carrying ten sets of full plate.

If your DM does let you restrain things with thousands of pounds of objects, as TheUser suggests, then you don't want to be a Barbarian anyway--you want to be a spellcaster with the Mold Earth cantrip, capable of moving 125 cubic feet of dirt as a single action. "The movement doesn't have enough force to cause damage," but who cares? 9000 lb. of dirt is still 9000 lb. of dirt.

Ref: https://www.reference.com/home-garden/much-cubic-yard-dirt-weigh-75fe361d5691a2ec

A 5' cube is slightly over four and a half cubic yards.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 04:07 PM

When you say Mobile isn't on all the time, it's valid to point out that that isn't true.
I didn't say mobile wasn't on all the time. i said the spells weren't.

Which is exactly why I didn't mention Expeditious Retreat for the Barblock*--I only mentioned it w/rt the general point about fast movement being easily replicable. You're telling me things I already know and expect you to already know too.

but you keep talking about spells as if one could benefit from resistance and cast at the same time.

If you're going in a dungeon, or infiltrating an enemy base, or negotiating with fierce nomads, you're probably anticipating combat enough to at least prepare for it. If fast movement is important to you, that will include casting cheap 1 hour no-concentration spells like Longstrider. On the other hand, if you're resting or reading books in a library or dancing at a ball, you're probably not anticipating combat. How many class levels are you willing to give up to have faster movement even when you're resting or reading books in a library or dancing at a ball?

see now you've gone back to the PC casting longstrider on themselves which isn't possible as it's not a warlock spell. so you've got to have a caster willing to throw that on you any time you think there may be an encounter. otherwise, it must be nice to always know when an encounter is coming. sometimes they happen walking down the road. how many times a day are you going to ask someone to cast that on you? are they willing to do that all day?

This is wrong. If you're a 9th level Barbarian non-Recklessly fighting a melee horde of orcs, say, taking 8 attacks per turn at +5 for d12+3/2, you're taking ~17 HP of damage per turn after accounting for Rage. Con 14 Fiend Barblock will have 74 HP + 15 Armor of Agathys temp HP. Con 14 pure Barb will have 86 HP plus an extra ASI. Fiend Barblock gains ~9 temp HP every time he kills an orc. Pure Barb is going to be dead within ~5 rounds, but Fiend Barblock will still be alive at about half health.

First, if you're a lvl 9 Barbarian and your con is only 14 or you didn't take "tough", and you're not reckless attacking, then you don't care about the main purpose of a barbarian and should choose another class.

2nd, to cast AoA, you have to use an action or magically know that the fight is coming because i guess your dm always tells everyone to get ready. However, knowing that ambushes happen, and using your own numbers then during a surprise attack:
first round, you get hit for 34 damage. on your turn you dont get to do anything. 2nd round, you get hit for 34 damage, on your turn you use your first action to cast AoA for the temp HP then BA rage. 3rd round, you get hit for 17 damage. AoA THP is gone and you're at 4 HP. but you get to attack now. If you can kill one, you'll get 9 THP. good luck.

meanwhile. barbarian is surprised. gets a great roll with advantage for initiative, rages first then gets to attack them on his turn. 1st turn he takes 17 damage. 2nd turn he attacks and takes 17 damage. if he's a shifter, he can do that and add another 11 THP. 3rd round, he attacks and takes 17 damage. currently he's sitting at 46 HP and has already swung 6 times. (again, thats if his con is only 14 or he didn't take tough. one of those isn't likely to be true though.)

Unless they're non-concentration spells like AoA and Fire Shield. (Spellcasting instead of Raging may be a better idea in some cases, but right now we're only talking about Raging.)

yes you can cast these first, but once you're raging, you can't cast anymore unless you want to end rage.

If the Warlock has to waste his first action calling his weapon instead of just unsheathing it, then the PCs must have been disarmed somehow,

or surprised.

Otherwise though the Barblock and the Barb will both behave identically on the first round:

no they won't unless the barblock knew ahead of time to cast AoA and call his weapon and have someone cast longstrider, then as noted, he has to use his first action to do one of these. whereas the barbarian with mobile and fast movement can start swinging in rage at full speed and after he hits can get out of their movement range without AOO.

they'll both down 1-2 enemies and move on to a second or third. Then eight orcs will hit them back, which means the pure Barb will take ~17 HP of damage and the Barblock will take ~2 real HP of damage kill ~3 more orcs and get back ~10 temp HP from the final kill, the one that uses up AoA.
if they're both killing 1 enemy a swing, then the barbarian kills 2 first round. takes 17 dmg. kills 2 second round. takes 17 dmg. kills 2 3rd round. takes 17 dmg. (assuming he isn't darting in and out of range)
barblock kills none first round. kills 2 second round. kills 2 third round. still 2 to go. he's always one round behind at least.

Barblock is now down 2 real HP and 5 temp HP from where he started, after killing ~5 orcs, and the pure Barb is down 17 HP and has killed ~2 orcs.
It only gets worse from there for the pure Barb. He'll be dead long before the Barblock.

this is just plain wrong because the barbarian gets a full round of swinging before the barblock if they arent surprised. if they are surprised it skews heavily in favor of the barbarian. all because he kept his class features. the barblock would be way lower than that because on the first round he's a lot more likely to be taking full damage than the barbarian.

but really man. it's a waste at this point. you don't see the value in the barbarian that i do. but you're taking a lot for granted that of course render the barbarian abilities moot. the whole idea is to consider those things when choosing one.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 05:38 PM

*snip a bunch of stuff because I'm not going to beat a dead horse*

First, if you're a lvl 9 Barbarian and your con is only 14 or you didn't take "tough", and you're not reckless attacking, then you don't care about the main purpose of a barbarian and should choose another class.

If you want to Reckless Attack against those 8 orcs, be my guest--you'll die even faster, taking ~27 HP of damage per round instead of only ~17, while the Barblock is still taking a net ~9ish damage per round. Reckless Attack against mobs is a sucker's game. It's the most common way Barbarians die IME.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 05:45 PM

*snip a bunch of stuff because I'm not going to beat a dead horse*

If you want to Reckless Attack against those 8 orcs, be my guest--you'll die even faster, taking ~27 HP of damage per round instead of only ~17, while the Barblock is still taking a net ~9ish damage per round. Reckless Attack against mobs is a sucker's game. It's the most common way Barbarians die IME.

Completley ignoring all the reasons this is wrong, you ignored the other two parts of what I said in this same statement you're referencing. You know about con and tough.

Look, you're imaginary scenario is going to favor the build you believe is better. So is mine. But I wouldn't give up the barb features for anything you mentioned yet. Because I wanted to play a barbarian. Not a warlock pretending to be one.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 05:52 PM

Completley ignoring all the reasons this is wrong, you ignored the other two parts of what I said in this same statement you're referencing. You know about con and tough.

No, I didn't ignore it, you just missed the point: Tough buys you an extra 18 HP, but you're throwing away 27 HP per round. It's not going to make you tanky enough to survive, it just lets you survive another fraction of a round.

Again, inappropriate Reckless Attack is IME the most common way Barbarians die. This isn't about Barb vs. Warlock, it's just good sense: don't Reckless when the odds are in the enemy's favor. In fact you should consider Dodging.

NOMster

2019-12-03, 06:28 PM

No, I didn't ignore it, you just missed the point: Tough buys you an extra 18 HP, but you're throwing away 27 HP per round. It's not going to make you tanky enough to survive, it just lets you survive another fraction of a round.

Again, inappropriate Reckless Attack is IME the most common way Barbarians die. This isn't about Barb vs. Warlock, it's just good sense: don't Reckless when the odds are in the enemy's favor. In fact you should consider Dodging.

And even though my entire post was scenarios without reckless, that's the thing you latched onto and didn't address any of the other stuff that is actually relevant to the comparison.

Chaosticket

2019-12-03, 06:43 PM

Reckless Attack is "soft protected" by the Resistance from Rage.

You get hit more often but you get Advantage on Attack rolls and Rage boosts damage and Resistances.

a Barbarian is a beast, especially at low levels where you probably have the best chance to hit and highest damage.

The problem is that many powers don't help that.

Berserker can make extra attacks as a Bonus Action but Exhaustion isn't worth it.

Picking Feats to give extra damage and attacks are key.

Amechra

2019-12-03, 07:14 PM

In the recent UA survey I suggested to WotC that they should be testing alternate features for Brutal Critical. That's a real waste of design space IMHO.

When I first read 5e, I misread crits as giving you a single extra weapon damage die - Brutal Critical seemed way better, and I haven't really gotten over the feeling of disappointment. Like, why do I have to wait until 9th level to pick up my first extra die? I'm stuck playing a Half-Orc to get that fuzzy "my crits are super-great" feeling.

On a semi-related note, we houseruled the rage damage bonus to +1d4 damage on Strength-based melee weapon attacks (it goes up to +1d6 at 9th and +1d8 at 13th) - the result felt pretty good, and I wasn't upstaging anyone else (granted, the rest of the party were an archer Rogue and a Warlock focusing on Eldritch Blast, so adding a little more melee damage wasn't stepping on anyone's toes.)

Expected

2019-12-03, 07:35 PM

You're right to stress the drawback of "Haste ending" especially if it ends early because the Bard went and did a crazy thing exposing him to a nasty concentration save.

However, I very, *very* strongly disagree on the assessement that "its benefits aren't that good".
You forget that the action can be used on Attack OR Disengage OR Dash.
You forget that it adds a +2 to AC AND Dexterity saves.
You forget that it doubles base speed, free of charge.

On Expected's character, it means that, before he gets Mobile*, he alreasy has the assurance of being able to Disengage "for free" whenever he gets surrounded "too much". With free double speed, he should be able to reach enemies he wants to strike in most situations (especially with the +10 feet from class).
Whenever he doesn't need to use extra action on Dash/Disengage (which should happen very often once he gets Mobile), he can make an extra weapon attack with advantage (Reckless) and possibly GWM benefit. That's a potential extra 33% (normal) or 25% (if crit that turn enabling extra attack) every turn.
Hidden benefit: sometimes as a Barb, you got a crit with GWM so you get an extra attack... But you killed your current quarry with that crit and no enemy is close enough to make a full weapon attack because you used your speed already. That's another case where extra speed counts.

And once he gets Eagle, he can easily make unsuspected blitz rush at backline casters or flyers.
So Haste is definitely a great option... IF the Bard does not waste everything by exposing himself needlessly. Otherwise, certainly that tactic would backfire and possibly end bad.

* By the way @Expected you are speaking of Mobile + PAM + Sentinel, so you're thinking about level 8 character then? I still think Mobile is more valuable taken early then because you don't get extra speed neither possible Haste yet and you need to be able to attack to keep rage going AND be able to move away if things get too hairy, because you don't have that much HP before level 4 - even as a Barb-...

Also, Expected, you may suggest your Bard to learn Enlarge. That will make you stay relevant in all Shoving/Grappling related tactics, including on Huge enemies (especially for flyers, making a Dragon fall prone -if you get a tad lucky of course-feels very satistying because you stop his move, deals it fall damage, and make it an easy prey for your melee pals -or you Xd-).
I agree. Haste, in my case, will greatly benefit my ability to deal damage (+1 attack), tank (+2 AC), and move (x2 movement). I don't have to worry about the Bard being attacked because they'll probably be prioritizing their own well-being.

I'd like to pick up GWM at 8 so Mobile will have to wait until 12, but I am open to the idea of taking Mobile first if it's a more optimal choice at that level. I will definitely suggest my Bard to take Enlarge, but they've proven to be very bad at teamwork so I doubt he will do so. It's worth trying, though.

Indomitable is such a underwhelming feature, it should have been an auto-save.
I agree, but Dex Fighters who can focus on Dex, Con, and Wis have the advantage that their saves are better than Str Fighters who have to dump Dex or at least take a lower array. That, at least, makes Indomitable useful.

I mean...it is technically useful, but only if your DM worries about carrying capacity. None of my DMs care about carrying capacity, and neither do I. While we will question if an 8 strength wizard can lift a Large creature, we strangely don't concern ourselves with the same wizard carrying ten sets of full plate.
It applies to my campaign, at least. Our DM is strict with encumbrance and lifestyle fees (among other things) so I could actually have use for the level 6 Bear feature (as well as the multiplier to my push, pull, and lift capacity). In a hypothetical situation where multiple party members are unconscious and I have the level 6 Bear feature and/or Powerful Build, how many of them would I be able to carry at one time? One, or as many as my capacity is? Is it an action to pick them up?

Reckless Attack is "soft protected" by the Resistance from Rage.

You get hit more often but you get Advantage on Attack rolls and Rage boosts damage and Resistances.

a Barbarian is a beast, especially at low levels where you probably have the best chance to hit and highest damage.

The problem is that many powers don't help that.

Berserker can make extra attacks as a Bonus Action but Exhaustion isn't worth it.

Picking Feats to give extra damage and attacks are key.
Exactly, which is why I took PAM at level 1 as VHuman for the OA's and BA attacks (1d4+Str mod+Rage). I also started with 16 Con to ensure I have a large amount of hitpoints to start with as well as a better chance to succeed on Relentless Rage. My preferred magic items are a Ring and Cloak of Protection (+1 to AC and saves for each) and a Str boosting Gauntlets of Ogre Power/Belt of Giant Strength. In, my opinion, Berserker is only good in no-feat games or tables where a caster is continuously willing to use a spell slot for Greater Restoration.

MaxWilson

2019-12-03, 07:47 PM

I'd like to pick up GWM at 8 so Mobile will have to wait until 12, but I am open to the idea of taking Mobile first if it's a more optimal choice at that level. I will definitely suggest my Bard to take Enlarge, but they've proven to be very bad at teamwork so I doubt he will do so. It's worth trying, though. *snip*

Exactly, which is why I took PAM at level 1 as VHuman for the OA's and BA attacks (1d4+Str mod+Rage). I also started with 16 Con to ensure I have a large amount of hitpoints to start with as well as a better chance to succeed on Relentless Rage. My preferred magic items are a Ring and Cloak of Protection (+1 to AC and saves for each) and a Str boosting Gauntlets of Ogre Power/Belt of Giant Strength. In, my opinion, Berserker is only good in no-feat games or tables where a caster is continuously willing to use a spell slot for Greater Restoration.

I recommend taking GWM before Mobile, especially since PAM can double as Mobile-light on a Barb. The trick is, on your turn you do this:

Action: attack. Use one attack to shove an enemy prone with your polearm (with advantage from Rage and Athletics bonus you should usually succeed). Use the other attack to either repeat the Shove attempt (if the first one failed) or attack with GWM at advantage for 1d10+16 or whatever.

Bonus action: PAM attack, again with GWM at advantage.

Then use your movement to retreat 20' or so. Your opponent will get an opportunity attack at disadvantage (because he's prone).

On your enemy's turn, he has to spend half his movement (call it 15') to stand up, which gives him not quite enough movement left to reach you and still attack. (And even if he Dashes to get near you or past you, you get a PAM reaction attack when he enters your range--and didn't you say you have Sentinel too?)

So yeah, I would definitely take GWM first. If you can convince the Bard to take Longstrider and cast it on you though, that would be nice. More movement makes melee easier.

JellyPooga

2019-12-03, 08:08 PM

On a semi-related note, we houseruled the rage damage bonus to +1d4 damage on Strength-based melee weapon attacks (it goes up to +1d6 at 9th and +1d8 at 13th) - the result felt pretty good, and I wasn't upstaging anyone else (granted, the rest of the party were an archer Rogue and a Warlock focusing on Eldritch Blast, so adding a little more melee damage wasn't stepping on anyone's toes.)

I...really quite like that house rule. Makes it feel a little more chaotic (not a bad thing for a Barbarian), makes his crits feel even more, uh, crit-y (if you follow through and allow "Rage damage dice" to double on a crit too, like Sneak Attack) and it puts Rage in the same field as other damage bonuses such as Sneak Attack, Hex, Hunters Mark and Smite, all of which add damage dice rather than a static modifier.

Amechra

2019-12-03, 08:29 PM

I...really quite like that house rule. Makes it feel a little more chaotic (not a bad thing for a Barbarian), makes his crits feel even more, uh, crit-y (if you follow through and allow "Rage damage dice" to double on a crit too, like Sneak Attack) and it puts Rage in the same field as other damage bonuses such as Sneak Attack, Hex, Hunters Mark and Smite, all of which add damage dice rather than a static modifier.

It did double on a crit. Having my Half-Orc Barbarian deal 3d12+2d4+3 damage on a crit felt glorious.

NOMster

2019-12-04, 06:35 AM

It did double on a crit. Having my Half-Orc Barbarian deal 3d12+2d4+3 damage on a crit felt glorious.

I know my DM would never go for this but damn that is badass

Amechra

2019-12-04, 10:28 AM

I know my DM would never go for this but damn that is badass

To be fair, we were also one of those mythical games where multiclassing was off the table (but feats were still a-OK), so it's not like we had to worry about me shopping around for crit-fishing tools. And without those, "our party Barbarian absolutely mashes things that he crits" is pretty cool.

In general, I think the advantage of having crit-based boosts is that they aren't reliable, so you don't have to worry about upstaging the rest of the party as much. Especially since 5e's crit-fishing is pretty imperfect (the best you can get for Strength-based attacks is 19% per attack, after all)...

---

What if Barbarians got Elven Accuracy-style triple advantage for Strength-based attacks while raging? Obviously it'd be a higher level feature, but it feels like a more "Barbarian" way of improving crit ranges than scoring a crit on more numbers.

NOMster

2019-12-04, 11:13 AM

To be fair

https://media.giphy.com/media/cJAig7iEwknaVwuoAj/giphy.gif

GlenSmash!

2019-12-04, 03:45 PM

If you want to Reckless Attack against those 8 orcs, be my guest--you'll die even faster, taking ~27 HP of damage per round instead of only ~17, while the Barblock is still taking a net ~9ish damage per round. Reckless Attack against mobs is a sucker's game. It's the most common way Barbarians die IME.

This is why I have to be convinced not to play a Zealot on a 14+ Barb, because once you take that "die" thing right off the table why not Reckless Attack against the mob? As long as I am raging that is.

Zealot lets the Barb be the reckless idiot so many people want it to be, rather than someone to stand in melee with bosses that can easily hit you (which is why you don't care if they have advantage against you) and are hard to hit (which is why you want to have advantage against them).

MaxWilson

2019-12-04, 04:10 PM

This is why I have to be convinced not to play a Zealot on a 14+ Barb, because once you take that "die" thing right off the table why not Reckless Attack against the mob? As long as I am raging that is.

Zealot lets the Barb be the reckless idiot so many people want it to be, rather than someone to stand in melee with bosses that can easily hit you (which is why you don't care if they have advantage against you) and are hard to hit (which is why you want to have advantage against them).

Yeah, Zealot does a good job of actually playing to the Barb fantasy and letting you do the things you'd expect to be able to do.

AdAstra

2019-12-04, 04:35 PM

To be fair, we were also one of those mythical games where multiclassing was off the table (but feats were still a-OK), so it's not like we had to worry about me shopping around for crit-fishing tools. And without those, "our party Barbarian absolutely mashes things that he crits" is pretty cool.

In general, I think the advantage of having crit-based boosts is that they aren't reliable, so you don't have to worry about upstaging the rest of the party as much. Especially since 5e's crit-fishing is pretty imperfect (the best you can get for Strength-based attacks is 19% per attack, after all)...

---

What if Barbarians got Elven Accuracy-style triple advantage for Strength-based attacks while raging? Obviously it'd be a higher level feature, but it feels like a more "Barbarian" way of improving crit ranges than scoring a crit on more numbers.

With how easily a Barbarian can get advantage through Reckless Attack, it's probably necessary to reword it slightly. Something like:

Reckless Attack Improvement

If you already have advantage on your attack roll from another source, attacking recklessly allows you to roll 3 d20s and take the highest result, as long as you're making a melee weapon attack rolls using strength.

or

If you already have advantage on your attack roll from another source, attacking recklessly allows your melee weapon attack rolls using strength to score critical hits on a roll of 19 or 20.

That way you can get more crits, but only if you would otherwise have advantage on the attack anyway. It also helps make advantage less redundant.

GlenSmash!

2019-12-04, 04:46 PM

Triple advantage or something like "While raging you no longer grant your enemies advantage when using reckless attack" both sound pretty good to me.

Better than brutal critical anyway.

Expected

2019-12-04, 05:57 PM

To be fair, we were also one of those mythical games where multiclassing was off the table (but feats were still a-OK), so it's not like we had to worry about me shopping around for crit-fishing tools. And without those, "our party Barbarian absolutely mashes things that he crits" is pretty cool.

In general, I think the advantage of having crit-based boosts is that they aren't reliable, so you don't have to worry about upstaging the rest of the party as much. Especially since 5e's crit-fishing is pretty imperfect (the best you can get for Strength-based attacks is 19% per attack, after all)...

---

What if Barbarians got Elven Accuracy-style triple advantage for Strength-based attacks while raging? Obviously it'd be a higher level feature, but it feels like a more "Barbarian" way of improving crit ranges than scoring a crit on more numbers.

Triple advantage or something like "While raging you no longer grant your enemies advantage when using reckless attack" both sound pretty good to me.

Better than brutal critical anyway.
Before it was fixed, Elven Accuracy used to be applied to attacks using Str, which worked with Reckless Attack. At that time, any Elf/Half-Elf was OP for Barbarian because it greatly improved their crit chance and synergized nicely with Brutal Criticals without the need for any multiclassing. I'm assuming that because they fixed that, WotC deemed it too strong and probably wouldn't consider implementing anything similar in the future.

GlenSmash!

2019-12-04, 06:06 PM

MaxWilson

2019-12-04, 06:12 PM

Before it was fixed, Elven Accuracy used to be applied to attacks using Str, which worked with Reckless Attack. At that time, any Elf/Half-Elf was OP for Barbarian because it greatly improved their crit chance and synergized nicely with Brutal Criticals without the need for any multiclassing. I'm assuming that because they fixed that, WotC deemed it too strong and probably wouldn't consider implementing anything similar in the future.

Considering how easy it is to get advantage in melee via e.g. invisibility, Faerie Fire, or inflicting Prone, I'm inclined to believe that the exclusion of Strength and Con from Elven Accuracy is done based on flavor grounds, not balance concerns.

E.g. an Elven Accuracy Hexblade Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter with Shadow of Moil can get tri-vantage on all of his Sharpshooter attacks, how could a tri-vantage Barbarian possibly be worse from a game balance perspective? But the flavor of a graceful elvish Raging Barbarian is weird: the abilities don't mix well from a fictional perspective.

Side note: until Aberrant Dragonmarks came out, there was no such thing as Con-based attack rolls. Now there is.

HiveStriker

2019-12-04, 06:21 PM

I agree. Haste, in my case, will greatly benefit my ability to deal damage (+1 attack), tank (+2 AC), and move (x2 movement). I don't have to worry about the Bard being attacked because they'll probably be prioritizing their own well-being.

I'd like to pick up GWM at 8 so Mobile will have to wait until 12, but I am open to the idea of taking Mobile first if it's a more optimal choice at that level. I will definitely suggest my Bard to take Enlarge, but they've proven to be very bad at teamwork so I doubt he will do so. It's worth trying, though.

I agree, but Dex Fighters who can focus on Dex, Con, and Wis have the advantage that their saves are better than Str Fighters who have to dump Dex or at least take a lower array. That, at least, makes Indomitable useful.

It applies to my campaign, at least. Our DM is strict with encumbrance and lifestyle fees (among other things) so I could actually have use for the level 6 Bear feature (as well as the multiplier to my push, pull, and lift capacity). In a hypothetical situation where multiple party members are unconscious and I have the level 6 Bear feature and/or Powerful Build, how many of them would I be able to carry at one time? One, or as many as my capacity is? Is it an action to pick them up?

Exactly, which is why I took PAM at level 1 as VHuman for the OA's and BA attacks (1d4+Str mod+Rage). I also started with 16 Con to ensure I have a large amount of hitpoints to start with as well as a better chance to succeed on Relentless Rage. My preferred magic items are a Ring and Cloak of Protection (+1 to AC and saves for each) and a Str boosting Gauntlets of Ogre Power/Belt of Giant Strength. In, my opinion, Berserker is only good in no-feat games or tables where a caster is continuously willing to use a spell slot for Greater Restoration.
Ok. I didn't realize you already picked PAM at level 1.

Well, honestly, I have no idea which would be better.
If you were sure that could could benefit from a Haste I'd definitely pick GWM, and possibly forego completely Mobile in fact.
Problem is, you cannot know...

On another hand, since you picked a feat that gives an OA when enemies *come to you* you may not benefit from Mobile that often when on the offensive.
Yet again, Mobile may save your hide if you need to bail because you expected to kill some guy(s)
but they survived, and if you stay things could get nasty for you.

I'd say "stop thinking in advance and choose with your gut when the time comes." You will benefit from all fights survived on the road to feel which will suit you better. :)

Too strong for a feat maybe, but as a high level class feature when caster's are getting access to Wish? I'm not so sure it'd still be too strong.
Indeed.

Considering how easy it is to get advantage in melee via e.g. invisibility, Faerie Fire, or inflicting Prone, I'm inclined to believe that the exclusion of Strength and Con from Elven Accuracy is done based on flavor grounds, not balance concerns.

E.g. an Elven Accuracy Hexblade Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter with Shadow of Moil can get tri-vantage on all of his Sharpshooter attacks, how could a tri-vantage Barbarian possibly be worse from a game balance perspective? But the flavor of a graceful elvish Raging Barbarian is weird: the abilities don't mix well from a fictional perspective.

Side note: until Aberrant Dragonmarks came out, there was no such thing as Con-based attack rolls. Now there is.
Because ranged attacks are ultimately "just this": ranged attacks.
Which need specific things to get advantage whereas in melee "a simple Shove" is enough.*
Which cannot benefit from the OA mechanic *ever*, whereas melee can.
Which need one feat to get extra attack, whereas melee does not necessarily.
Which furthermore, per their nature, tend to be used from as great a distance as possible.
You still become useless against total cover. You can still get fully negated by a simple distant Fog Cloud.
You still become nigh useless in a Sleet Storm.
You will still deal 0 damage if enemy protects itself behind a close Wind Wall.

Archery is not the "all win every time" thing you can see said sometimes on forums.
With that said, melee has its own drawbacks: first you need to reach enemies, which is not always easy. Second, per essence, you are exposing yourself much more to damage.
* Yeah, there is the size limit, so it becomes probably even harder for melee to get advantage in late levels. So there is that too.

All in all, I think they banned it because it would make STR builds far too strong... In the first half. In the second one, it would be "powerful", but I have, as you, trouble to see how it would actually push melee to the point of creating an imbalance.

Amechra

2019-12-04, 11:03 PM

Side note: until Aberrant Dragonmarks came out, there was no such thing as Con-based attack rolls. Now there is.

Funnily enough, they're not the first! Fire Genasi get Produce Flame as a Constitution-based cantrip. Aberrant Dragonmarks allow you to use it with other, better cantrips.

MaxWilson

2019-12-04, 11:06 PM

Funnily enough, they're not the first! Fire Genasi get Produce Flame as a Constitution-based cantrip. Aberrant Dragonmarks allow you to use it with other, better cantrips.

Huh. I didn't realize that. Thanks.