So My Party Wants to Fight a Lich

[Mabbly]

(don't read this if you're in the Ethically Dubious Ensemble :smallannoyed:)

My party has been aware of the existence of a lich in their region for a long time, since they were about level 5ish. They really wanted to kill him then, but wisely held back. They've been testing the waters ever since (stealing his phylactery, getting useful magic items for hunting undead, checking in on him via sending, etc). They are now levels 9-11 and have decided it's time to end him.

I'm pretty sure they all know on a meta level that they can't defeat a lich in a fair fight. I think they are relying on being able to get in real close and nuking the hell out of him before he can fight back. And I think they are tired of living so close to something whose existence goes against their morals (one is a cleric of Kelemvor!).

They have two things going for them: they convinced him to come outside of his lair and, unbeknownst to them, he has devolved into a demilich, lowering his CR by 3.

My question is, what do I do? I'm fairly certain the demilich will still wreck them unless they convince it to do something stupid like hover into range of their paladin without attacking. They've been really smart and patient about this lich so far, and I don't want to punish them for not obeying what they know on a meta-level. I haven't explicitly warned them about the CR disparity because I haven't decided if I should just nerf the demilich or not. But nerfing also feels cheap; they've worked hard to give themselves every advantage in an impossible fight.

If they do fight it and get wrecked, the demilich would show mercy if they promised to do his bidding and retrieve a certain item, but they already lied about doing this once so it would be a difficult persuasion roll. Should I let my party walk into this potential TPK?

Thanks for any help you can give!

[prabe]

How many of them are there, and how sound is the party's grasp of tactics? I had a party of six 9th-level characters kill an adult green dragon with no fatalities. Now, the dragon had some absolutely abysmal dice luck, but they made reasonable decisions and they lived. The lich (even as a demilich) might work out a bit dfferently, because so much of what it does is going to be spell-based, but parties are capable of dealing with a lot, especially given time to prepare and set up a single encounter.

Also, there's something to be said for choices having consequences. If the party goes out looking for something that kills them, they've kinda earned that ...

[Mabbly]

How many of them are there, and how sound is the party's grasp of tactics? I had a party of six 9th-level characters kill an adult green dragon with no fatalities. Now, the dragon had some absolutely abysmal dice luck, but they made reasonable decisions and they lived. The lich (even as a demilich) might work out a bit dfferently, because so much of what it does is going to be spell-based, but parties are capable of dealing with a lot, especially given time to prepare and set up a single encounter.

There are 5 of them. When they put in the effort they often come up with brilliant tactical plans. The demilich actually has no spells, they mostly have AoE abilities that require saving throws.


Also, there's something to be said for choices having consequences. If the party goes out looking for something that kills them, they've kinda earned that ...

Yeah I agree! I want there to be consequences for choosing to go after an enemy that is in-fiction mega powerful, but I also want to reward what patience and foresight they've had so far. I suppose that reward could be just surviving this long instead of TPKing at level 5 though, lol.

[Erys]

Five players with a well designed ambush can probably deal 80 - 160 damage in one round to 'kill' it.

The demilich weakness is its range of its abilities and hover speed, both are 30' max. So it will need to utilize its legendary actions to move towards whom ever is closest as fast as possible. Otherwise they will kite it and it will die a chump.

That said:

Regardless of how the actual fight plays out, the PCs are stuck with a very serious dilemma; its not dead until you destroy that phylactery.

Worse, its no longer dormant! Its awake and probably hungry.

[Chaos Jackal]

If someone challenges a lich on their own accord, they're either prepared to face the consequences, or they die. Simple as that.

If your party has some tricks that they haven't told you about, they might just pull through. A demilich is extremely durable, but not a terrifying offensive force, so unless the scream leads to some terrible save rolls that nuke half of them immediately, they can definitely pull it off.

Boss-style encounters with only one enemy are notoriously faulty in regards to CR. Even juggernauts like dragons can disappear within two or three turns before they manage much. Liches and other high-level, high-CR casters even more so; if they're just using their stat block and have nothing in the way of allies or magic items, they can roll badly on initiative and simply blow up. 135hp and 17ac are literally nothing for a five-man party with magic weapons at the edge between tier 2 and tier 3. A demilich's 20ac, resistance to magic weapons and healing capabilities can make it really hard to damage, but a paladin winning initiative can destroy it in one round.

So it's doable. Don't worry about them. Do them no favors, and expect none. If they work out how to beat it, applaud and reward them for that. There's no point in rewarding patience if that patience hasn't really borne any fruit. If they fail, it's on them; they chose the course.

[zinycor]

If the demilich doesn't actually have spells, the party should be able to win this encounter.

[Fable Wright]

Strategy to beat a lich: Grapple him in the area of a Silence spell.

Strategy to beat a demilich: Grapple him in the aura of a Silence spell.

Honestly not much has changed other than the very dramatic reduction in paralysis attacks by the lich.

[Rynjin]

Wait, since when are demiliches considered a lower CR?

[Fable Wright]

Wait, since when are demiliches considered a lower CR?

5e. Nowadays, when a lich doesn't eat enough souls (which is already a change for the worse) they get undead dementia and turn into a floating skull that eats souls on instinct. After they do so and have time to recuperate, lich is restored.

[Sparky McDibben]

This sounds great, honestly. If the party wins without finding the real phylactery, they've just created a campaign boss when it rejuvenates itself. If they wipe, a high-level cleric of Kelemvor raises them a month later amid the smoking ruins of their hometown. He explains the demilich went on a rampage and is devouring souls before disappearing. The cleric needs a hand dealing with some of the aftermath (enough filler to grind out a few levels) and then wants the party to finish the job.

Win-win, DM.

[Yakk]

This isn't an impossible fight. It is a fight they could lose.

The basic balancing of 5e is damage and soak. And damage/soak scales linearly with CR.

So that lich is putting out about twice the damage and has twice the soak of a CR 9-11 creature (it is semi-linear, not linear).

Optimized 5e characters by level 10 are easily putting out twice the damage budget they "should be" balance wise. They got magic items? Feats? Multiclassing done well? Throw in a daily class heavy party who starts out fully fueled, anti-undead prep or classes, anti-lich tactics, and the demilich could drop. Even without a PC fatality.

OTOH, the party could get roflstomped.

As others have noted, a paladin grappling it in a silence spell, and allies bombarding from range, and the lich loses. A party on flying mounts who move faster than 100' per round and ranged weapons, and the lich loses.

CR twice the party's level is just double deadly. And deadly means there is a risk a party member dies.

[Brookshw]

How in the heck did they get the phylactery, and why hasn't the lich come after them for that :smallconfused:

[Mabbly]

Thanks for the advice everyone! They are quite strong for their level (magic items, multiclassing) and have access to silence and a paladin with a high speed steed. It makes a lot of sense to look at high CR enemies not as being unkillable but as having deadly output. I'm not sure how it will go but I'm less worried and more excited to see it play out :)

[Gignere]

Thanks for the advice everyone! They are quite strong for their level (magic items, multiclassing) and have access to silence and a paladin with a high speed steed. It makes a lot of sense to look at high CR enemies not as being unkillable but as having deadly output. I'm not sure how it will go but I'm less worried and more excited to see it play out :)

If it’s just the Demilich I think your party is going to roflstomp it. A single big boss monster is very easily handled by a party due to action economy and the fact that your players knows their abilities way better than you can know the demilich’s abilities. What I mean by that is that your players has had many sessions to test and use abilities so they know the optimal time to use it to best effect.

However as DM you probably only at most used the demilich a few times and most times never so you may not have a good grasp of their abilities in actual play beyond theorycrafting.

Given these two disparities parties can usually beat much higher CR single monster encounters.

[Hail Tempus]

Strategy to beat a lich: Grapple him in the area of a Silence spell.

Strategy to beat a demilich: Grapple him in the aura of a Silence spell.

Honestly not much has changed other than the very dramatic reduction in paralysis attacks by the lich.
I’ve read a few posts about parties seemingly fighting a lone lich. And I have to ask, what lich would allow itself to be put into that scenario? Every lich is going to have some minions to keep the adventurers at bay. Elementals, other undead, golems, helmed horrors, fiends etc.

As a DM, there’s no way I’d let a party fight a solo lich.

[Sparky McDibben]

It's a demilich, so it may not have minions, given it's devolution. On the other hand, the party doesn't know that they're fighting a demilich, so that could give it an edge if they dismiss it as a weird familiar or something. And if that demilich surprises them...well, it'll be interesting for sure!

If you're really worried, OP, have a sign of divine favor manifest. Maybe the cleric of Kelemvor has a dream-visitation from a saint of the faith, to warn them of the danger and ask why they want to fight it. Like in "The Last Crusade," ask your player, "Do you do this for Kelemvor's glory...or for yours?"

If the cleric passes, the next morning there's a sign of the saint's presence (burned footsteps, or the water is now holy water, or the entire area they were resting in is under a hallow spell), and there is one charm per PC which mimics the effects of a death ward spell. If you do that, I wouldn't hold back on the demilich fight, though.

Can you let us know what happens, OP? Now I'm curious.

[Fable Wright]

I’ve read a few posts about parties seemingly fighting a lone lich. And I have to ask, what lich would allow itself to be put into that scenario? Every lich is going to have some minions to keep the adventurers at bay. Elementals, other undead, golems, helmed horrors, fiends etc.

As a DM, there’s no way I’d let a party fight a solo lich.

Elementals & Fiends: Planar bind them, and they burn so many resources. Don't planar bind them, and they take up so much time keeping them in check.
Other undead? They're fine, as long as you keep them in the pen. Otherwise they start gnawing on lab materials.
Constructs in general: Excellent minions... as long as you've got the time to invest in them instead of your Original Research.

Granted, I'd have most lich lairs spelled out top to bottom in Glyph of Wardings, since they're low upkeep, take almost no time, and it's only 100gp to annihilate annoying adventurers that try to bother your research. (Prep Feeblemind glyphs to only trigger on divine spellcasters and Bards. It's hilarious! Also Mirage Arcane glyphs so that when they trigger the trap, the floor is suddenly lava. Notably lethal for most adventurers.)

But when you do eventually find the lich, this is how to neutralize the lich. It takes 1.5 party members (a cleric's Concentration and a Paladin to grapple) and the rest of the party can finish off whatever minions might be in the fight however they normally would, but given how varied the opposition could be... well, there's no way to account for it.

[Safety Sword]

I’ve read a few posts about parties seemingly fighting a lone lich. And I have to ask, what lich would allow itself to be put into that scenario? Every lich is going to have some minions to keep the adventurers at bay. Elementals, other undead, golems, helmed horrors, fiends etc.

As a DM, there’s no way I’d let a party fight a solo lich.

The party's first attack should be against the lich's projected image and then the lich should ambush THEM. :smalltongue:

And as for grapple. Misty Step people, misty step.. Or Contingency. That can be fun.

[Fable Wright]

And as for grapple. Misty Step people, misty step..

Why do you think Silence is always step 1, and Grapple step 2? :smallconfused:

[Safety Sword]

Why do you think Silence is always step 1, and Grapple step 2? :smallconfused:

Counterspell is also a thing.

[Fable Wright]

Counterspell is also a thing.

Counterspell has a number of restrictions, including (1) the requirement of line of sight, which Silence niftily doesn't require; (2) requires a reaction, which can be burned earlier in the round by any number of things; (3) can, itself, be Counterspelled by friendly party members (see also number 2, preventing the Lich from double-counterspelling); (4) can't affect castings which don't have components, such as a Divine Soul Sorcerer's Silence, or a staff activation.

Also if Silence can be cast on a moving object due to houseruling in previous edition mechanics, then it can just be pre-cast way before Counterspell becomes a concern.

It's not a perfect strategy. Nothing is. But as far as low-risk high-reward plans go, this is near the top.

[OvisCaedo]

My party has been aware of the existence of a lich in their region for a long time, since they were about level 5ish. They really wanted to kill him then, but wisely held back. They've been testing the waters ever since (stealing his phylactery, getting useful magic items for hunting undead, checking in on him via sending, etc). They are now levels 9-11 and have decided it's time to end him.


I'm still hung up over this one. How on earth did they steal his phylactery? Do you mean they, tried to?

[Spore]

Thanks for the advice everyone! They are quite strong for their level (magic items, multiclassing) and have access to silence and a paladin with a high speed steed. It makes a lot of sense to look at high CR enemies not as being unkillable but as having deadly output. I'm not sure how it will go but I'm less worried and more excited to see it play out :)

Spellcasters rarely have devoted their whole array towards mayhem, destruction and combating heroes. They need and use scrying to get information (there is a nice bit where he sends out spies to steal belongings in order to overcome their wis saves). They animate dead to maintain their lairs. You should think about a few homefield advantages because any smart party should lure the lich out of his lair instead of bravely (and stupidly) engage him on his home turf.

If they manage to kill him, the next quest is to destroy the phyalctery. It would be boring if it were a brittle vase crushed over the next rock. No, the thing has enchantments that require a whole other quest to destroy, (with a time limit of a few tendays, i am thinking 30-60 days), with evil cultists and wizards trying to get a hold of your new evil item.

I feel the trope of destroying the Artifact of Doom (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtifactOfDoom) is rarely used these days. Back in 3.5 days, an Unholy Greatsword was usually sold to a vendor for an insane price, with the group KNOWING it can only be wielded and bought by an evil rich bastard to slay good aligned creatures.

[Brother12]

In my first real campaign as DM, I had a 3 level 6 PC party in a dungeon crawl. My DM-PC had just died to a mindflayer so I leveled the other 2 characters up. Having a small party, I'd given both a lot of magic equipment. The paladin had a flametongue and a bunch of defensive gear. The wizard had spellcasting bonuses and such. Anyhow, the last room of the dungeon had an adult black dragon who was asleep on his hoard. The vengeance paladin attacked with no forethought except for anger over the death of my PC. I gave him advantage and a surprise round to attack. He hit and had a crit, using max smites he messed the dragon up. Initiative; wizard, pally, dragon. Wizard does minimal damage, maybe 30. Paladin goes and somehow manages to crit again and kill the dragon. Dragon didn't get to take a turn at all. I was excited for my players and also forgot about legendary actions, but it was still impressive.


I think your party will be fine with a pally and cleric as long as the demilich is alone.

[moonfly7]

Let them do it. I doubt they're just gonna wail on him blindly. And even if they do, 5 on 1, no matter the level difference, is always bad for the one

[Sigreid]

They've been testing the waters ever since (stealing his phylactery, getting useful magic items for hunting undead, checking in on him via sending, etc). They are now levels 9-11 and have decided it's time to end him.



If they've already got his phylactery, it's already game over. That's the hard part. Destroy the phylactery, kill the lich.

[Fable Wright]

If they've already got his phylactery, it's already game over. That's the hard part. Destroy the phylactery, kill the lich.

A lich can live without a phylactery, it just can't respawn.

[Sigreid]

A lich can live without a phylactery, it just can't respawn.

I've never heard this one before. The story I'd always read was that the lich has to feed souls to the phylactery to sustain himself.

[Sparky McDibben]

I've never heard this one before. The story I'd always read was that the lich has to feed souls to the phylactery to sustain himself.

It feeds itself souls to prevent itself from devolving into a demilich, which this has already done. If they can destroy the phylactery, they can destroy the demilich permanently.

[Fable Wright]

I've never heard this one before. The story I'd always read was that the lich has to feed souls to the phylactery to sustain himself.

5th edition has done weird things with lich lore. In 3.5e, liches did not need any upkeep for their phylacteries, and in fact several major characters in settings relied on the fact that they didn't need to feed to inform their very existence. Erandis Vol in Eberron, for example, was lichified against her will and at times really did want to just die, but couldn't. The option to not maintain upkeep on the phylactery requires a complete refactoring of her character in order to make it work. There were questions on whether a lich could recraft a phylactery that never got a clear answer.

I guess in the end, the question is that the DM decides. Does the phylactery being destroyed cripple the lich, forcing a final fight for revenge? Or does it kill the lich?

[Honkytonk]

My party stumbled upon a two spell combo that completely debilitated the lich. Granted it is a huge party. (levels 18-20, 7 people)

The druid before me put Entangle on the lich and I cast silence immediately after. With silence, I intended that we MIGHT get one turn of the lich burning their movement to get out of the bubble of silence.

Liches don't have great strength. Entangle requires a strength saving throw. Our melee and casters absolutely demolished the lich within 3 rounds.

[Fable Wright]

My party stumbled upon a two spell combo that completely debilitated the lich. Granted it is a huge party. (levels 18-20, 7 people)

The druid before me put Entangle on the lich and I cast silence immediately after. With silence, I intended that we MIGHT get one turn of the lich burning their movement to get out of the bubble of silence.

Liches don't have great strength. Entangle requires a strength saving throw. Our melee and casters absolutely demolished the lich within 3 rounds.

Yep. This is the Silence + Grapple strategy, with one key difference:

The lich should have burned his Legendary Resistance vs Entangle, whereas Grapple doesn't allow a save. Glad to see someone chiming in with actual play experience of it!

[Honkytonk]

Yep. This is the Silence + Grapple strategy, with one key difference:

The lich should have burned his Legendary Resistance vs Entangle, whereas Grapple doesn't allow a save. Glad to see someone chiming in with actual play experience of it!

Yeah it was really fun. Honestly again, I thought I was buying us ONE turn. But the damage kept piling on and the DM was getting more and more distressed, so on the third round, I cast Cutting Words just for disadvantage against his target, and he died. From WORDS. Everyone was laughing and the DM was a little depressed.

The next fight against the lich is going to be rough, due to that strategy we stumbled upon, I think.

My main plan is to back up about 2 feet behind the casters (I'm a bard) and cast Anti-Magic Zone, so they can step back into it after they've had their turn. I'm hoping this will keep at least 2/3rds of the party in relative safety as the lich really doesn't have much that isn't magical.

We don't really do grappling in this party but I can see that it's a better option than entangle, thanks for that tip.

[Rokir]

As a DM i like to let everything have a consequence. If they want to challenge a dangerous enemy, so be it. Just make sure they know this is going to be tough.
But it seems your party is well informed.

You can make this challenge as tough or easy as you want.
A single enemy out in the open? If the party can surprise him and/or engage him as group in melee he might fall within the first round.
A prepared spellcaster knowing that a dangerous party is going to meet hin? Quite a challenge.

It is important to plan this encounter throughoutly. So the scout / scrying mage / divination spell of the party has the opportunity to detect possible traps or preparations. Don’t invent things afterwards. An invisible wall of force should be already there when the mage searches for it, not when the archer initiates the ambush.

I would approach the encounter this way:

-think about how the lich would approach such a party in the open field
-> preferably not at all. Place an illusion and wait far away (or at the edge of your offensive spells) protected with spells and more illusions

-plan ahead for escape solutions
-> spells are good but can be denied. Maybe Burrowing Minions or invisible flying ones? Contigency spells etc

-plan ahead for attack options
-> again minions & spells. Maybe environmental threats (cliffs or something available?)

-think about what would happen if the party goes down.
-> they know they are going to challenge a dangerous foe. They should have own preparations for that case.
if they don’t have any and don’t want to die: deus ex & raise the party by the power and will of their god is an option. Do they have NPC friends capable of doing this? They could end in the lichs dungeon as specimen/prisoner and have to escape. Or they could get raised as undead minions and get the opportunity to claim back their free will & soul.

If you throughoutly planned this encounter and the party comes up with a genius tactic this will be a well deserves victory. Even if they end it with one turn.
If they fail its not because some ad hoc decisions. And this failure might lead to a new plot hook.

As long as it’s not „godly fireball of lichly doom; everyone dies“ you should be fine.