Zealot barbarian on no resurrection worlds

[zinycor]

So, I am running a campaign with no spells for raise dead or resurrection spells (I do allow revivify).

One of my players wants to play a zealot barbarian, what ability could he get instead of the no money to resurrect they normally get?

[Teaguethebean]

So, I am running a campaign with no spells for raise dead or resurrection spells (I do allow revivify).

One of my players wants to play a zealot barbarian, what ability could he get instead of the no money to resurrect they normally get?

Probably none. The Zealot is strong as is and if they can still be revivified after battle they can fight just as recklessly.

[Expected]

Probably none. The Zealot is strong as is and if they can still be revivified after battle they can fight just as recklessly.
True, but they need to be extremely careful not to be Disintegrated or hit with Finger of Death while using Rage Beyond Death or else they're done and Revivify cannot help them. I would go Totem Warrior instead--it suits the lack of revive spells in your campaign better.

[Teaguethebean]

True, but they need to be extremely careful not to be Disintegrated or hit with Finger of Death while using Rage Beyond Death or else they're done and Revivify cannot help them. I would go Totem Warrior instead--it suits the lack of revive spells in your campaign better.

He wasn't asking what you would play though? And also rage beyond death only happens at very high levels and finger of death and disintegrate don't care if revive spells are banned.

[Luccan]

Probably none. The Zealot is strong as is and if they can still be revivified after battle they can fight just as recklessly.

They still need a third level ability, though. Leaving a hole in their progression is uneven and unless the Barbarian is clearly the whole campaign's MVP, not getting a usable ability is going to feel lopsided.

I've been considering this myself, for a low or possibly even no magic campaign. They will still be getting some benefit since Revivify is going to be available, but it is less useful. In this case, perhaps a thematic cantrip? Spare the Dying might not be usable in a rage, but it makes sense for a class that's all about ignoring death as long as possible.

[zinycor]

True, but they need to be extremely careful not to be Disintegrated or hit with Finger of Death while using Rage Beyond Death or else they're done and Revivify cannot help them. I would go Totem Warrior instead--it suits the lack of revive spells in your campaign better.

Not what I asked for.

[Teaguethebean]

They still need a third level ability, though. Leaving a hole in their progression is uneven and unless the Barbarian .

They still get Divine fury? They aren't left with nothing, they get a rather large damage boost.

[Luccan]

They still get Divine fury? They aren't left with nothing, they get a rather large damage boost.

Oh yeah, I always forget they have the double at 3rd level...

[zinycor]

They still need a third level ability, though. Leaving a hole in their progression is uneven and unless the Barbarian is clearly the whole campaign's MVP, not getting a usable ability is going to feel lopsided.

I've been considering this myself, for a low or possibly even no magic campaign. They will still be getting some benefit since Revivify is going to be available, but it is less useful. In this case, perhaps a thematic cantrip? Spare the Dying might not be usable in a rage, but it makes sense for a class that's all about ignoring death as long as possible.

Spare the dying could be an option

They still get Divine fury? They aren't left with nothing, they get a rather large damage boost.

True, but I and my players still feel that they should get something in place of the Free-revive ability

[Damon_Tor]

Advantage on death saves.

[zinycor]

Advantage on death saves.

Wow! That would actually be pretty cool.

[Teaguethebean]

Advantage on death saves.

That is actually a great idea! I may steal this for my ToA game.

[Expected]

He wasn't asking what you would play though? And also rage beyond death only happens at very high levels and finger of death and disintegrate don't care if revive spells are banned.


Not what I asked for.

Doesn't matter. From an optimization standpoint it's still a viable opinion. If your player wants to lose the advantage gained from Zealot Barbarian features, that's on them.

And as for substituting the class feature, the only substitute that would keep balance would be to allow them to ignore the consequences of Disintegrate and Finger of Death.

[Teaguethebean]

Doesn't matter. From an optimization standpoint it's still a viable opinion.

Though that isn't the point of the thread?

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Advantage on death saves.

Simple solutions are usually the best. The simplest would be to just not worry about it. Sometimes features just don't get used due to a variety of campaign based reasons. If you want a replacement, though, advantage on death saves is a pretty elegant solution.

[Expected]

Though that isn't the point of the thread?
It's still something that should be considered whether or not it is the point of the thread.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Well, let's look at what the ability you're replacing actually does: It basically saves them money under certain circumstances. A lot of money but the circumstances aren't too common. Hopefully, anyway.

Therefore, if you wanted to replace it with something else with the same mechanical benefit, you'd give them a way to save money sometimes. Maybe they can get food and lodging (which is cheaper but more common) from other members of the faith for example.

[zinycor]

It's still something that should be considered whether or not it is the point of the thread.

you could, but since I did ask the question, I won't consider your posts...

[Mr Adventurer]

Advantage on death saves.

An alternative: you must fail five death saves, instead of three, before you die.

Makes each one less predictable, but still gives a buffer in the same place (and I think suggests "tenacity" a little more directly).

[Arkhios]

Maybe extend the period of time that Revivify can affect a Zealot? Maybe to 10 minutes instead of just 1 minute. Or Maybe even 1 hour.

[Slipperychicken]

It is a ribbon ability, so I wouldn't expect a giant impact on mechanics.

Saving the 300 gold on revivify is still pretty good early-game.

As an alternative, I'd consider giving the zealot the ability to automatically succeed on a death saving throw once per short rest. Bump it up to 2 per short rest at level 10, and automatic stabilization at level 15.

[Nikushimi]

So if I understand this correctly you want to basically find something to replace "Warrior of the Gods" which is their 3rd level ability which states "If a spell, such as Raise Dead, has the sole effect of restoring you to life (but not undeath), the caster doesn't need material components to cast the spell on you."

Which is pretty much a fluff ability in my opinion. It makes the casting of such spells upon the Zealot less costly.

The suggestion of Advantage on Death Saving Throws is huge compared to what this ability does imo.

Advantage on Death Saving throws, while neat, almost always guarantees that this Zealot cannot and will not die by an exponential amount. Can you fail on an Advantage roll still? Sure, but it's highly unlikely. For a 3rd level ability that seems extremely strong.

Personally, these are the options I'd choose from to replace Warrior of the Gods.

1. Stamina of the Gods: When Revivify is cast on a Zealot in addition to the 1hp reset they regain additional Hit Points equal to their Level + Con Mod + Proficiency Bonus. Reason: My reason for this one is because it simply makes Revivify more useful on them much like the original Warrior of the Gods make the spells which resurrect be better for them cause of the no materials component without being too strong.

2. Resilience of the Gods: When you drop to 0hp, but not killed outright, you may instead regain hit points equal to your Level + Con Modifier. You may use this ability an equal amount of times as your Con Modifier per long rest. Reason: This gives them even more durability and a way to continue to fight much like their theme seems to be. This doesn't make it too strong for 3rd level, but imo is better than what their 3rd level is already.

These two options can be tweaked, but this was the gist of what I was thinking.

[Teaguethebean]

2. Resilience of the Gods: When you drop to 0hp, but not killed outright, you may instead regain hit points equal to your Level + Con Modifier. You may use this ability an equal amount of times as your Con Modifier per long rest. Reason: This gives them even more durability and a way to continue to fight much like their theme seems to be. This doesn't make it too strong for 3rd level, but imo is better than what their 3rd level is already.

These two options can be tweaked, but this was the gist of what I was thinking.

How is that feature weaker than advantage on death saves!?! That is better than Relentless rage! And at lv11 they get it and Relentless rage! Almost garunteed survives dropping to 0 7 times! 8 if your a half orc!

[Rara1212]

Perhaps just give them the Half-Orc's Relentless Endurance feature?

[Nikushimi]

How is that feature weaker than advantage on death saves!?! That is better than Relentless rage! And at lv11 they get it and Relentless rage! Almost garunteed survives dropping to 0 7 times! 8 if your a half orc!

Well, I also said that they could be tweaked. I only gave those values as an example cause they were the first that popped into my head. My main point in the ability was that they could be given some sort of heal if they were to hit 0hp, but with a limit. I only gave it an amount of times as your con mod, but it could be just once per long rest.

At level 11 with Relentless Rage you can choose which one to use. They both have their limits though.

That being said, at level 14 a Zealot with Relentless Rage can use it to go to 1hp and then once they're hit again can continue fighting anyways at lvl11.

For me, higher levels don't do much cause I rarely find groups that go past level 5-7.

But regardless. I was mainly thinking of something that was like a "revive" when they hit 0hp, but didn't make them come back to full and wasn't like the Half-Orc's racial trait that just drops you to 1hp.

Cause honestly, a Half-Orc Barbarian at level 11 can drop to 1hp twice. So I mean...Eh.

Those are my two suggestions though. Advantage on Death Saving throws just seems very eh. You can have automatic failures to alleviate it, but still. A level 3 with Advantage on Death Saving throws is pretty big imo. That's all.

[zinycor]

Advantage on death saving throws doesn't seem to be such a big deal actually, since enemies can always get you failed saving throws by just attacking.

I believe I will take this option, since it is about as useful as the free-revives, and is easy to understand.

[Chronos]

If you still have Revivify in your world, then let the time limit for Revivify be longer for them. A day, maybe, just in case the cleric didn't have it prepared when needed.

[Composer99]

It's still something that should be considered whether or not it is the point of the thread.

If you're coming across as that stereotypical annoying older relative who offers condescending advice unlooked-for, it's time to reconsider your posting techniques.



So, I am running a campaign with no spells for raise dead or resurrection spells (I do allow revivify).

One of my players wants to play a zealot barbarian, what ability could he get instead of the no money to resurrect they normally get?

The feature in question is a ribbon, and in any event is still quite valuable even in your campaign since revivify is hardly cheap (and 300 gp worth of diamonds might still be difficult to get hold of) so I wouldn't go so far as giving advantage on all death saves.

I would instead suggest either giving advantage on death saves on a limited basis, or making them Constitution saving throws, again on a limited basis. Perhaps a number of times up to the barbarian's Constitution modifier, regaining expended uses when you finish a long rest? (You can make it a short or long rest at 14th level, around the point when clerics would normally have access to resurrection.)

[Genoin]

I agree that advantage on death saves is a noticable mechanical upgrade to what is mostly a fluff ability. I like the suggestion of extending the time limit on revivify. Thematically it's like because of their convictions their spirit lingers longer before passing on

[Damon_Tor]

I don't think I've ever been in a situation where a PC was in danger of failing death saves via bleedout except fights that are already lost, situations where the rest of the party is also down and/or retreating and the enemies will be inclined to finish off the dying PC anyway.

I guess my point is, I don't see how death save advantage really changes much: it feels just as "ribbony" to me.

[Wildarm]

So, I am running a campaign with no spells for raise dead or resurrection spells (I do allow revivify).

One of my players wants to play a zealot barbarian, what ability could he get instead of the no money to resurrect they normally get?

Simple fix is roll double the dice for healing when they are at 0 HP. Encourages the cleric to upcast those healing spells on their tank. Death brings glory!

[Expected]

If you're coming across as that stereotypical annoying older relative who offers condescending advice unlooked-for, it's time to reconsider your posting techniques.




The feature in question is a ribbon, and in any event is still quite valuable even in your campaign since revivify is hardly cheap (and 300 gp worth of diamonds might still be difficult to get hold of) so I wouldn't go so far as giving advantage on all death saves.

I would instead suggest either giving advantage on death saves on a limited basis, or making them Constitution saving throws, again on a limited basis. Perhaps a number of times up to the barbarian's Constitution modifier, regaining expended uses when you finish a long rest? (You can make it a short or long rest at 14th level, around the point when clerics would normally have access to resurrection.)
It's true, the Zealot level 3 feature is a ribbon that does help save 300gp per Revivify used on the Barbarian. However, in games where the DM does not homebrew the lack of revive spells (except for Revivify), it is useful combined with Rage Beyond Death. In my previous posts, I was trying to point out that Rage Beyond Death is extremely dangerous to use in this campaign because of the lack of True Resurrection that will revive someone turned to ash from Disintegrate (which is a real possibility, especially against Liches) which is why I suggested that the Barbarian take the Totem Warrior Primal Path.

As for the class 3 feature, any reasonable suggestions will fall on deaf ears. Taking criticism, and even "condescending" advice, is a skill best learned young because there will always be ways to improve and you are only stunting your own growth if you ignore constructive, even non-constructive, criticism.

Game balance is like an ecosystem, everything has the potential to affect each other, which is why amateur attempts at homebrew fail so often. Class features, like Rage Beyond Death were intended to be used in a game that also has True Resurrection--take that out and you are inadvertently nerfing the Zealot.

[zinycor]

It's true, the Zealot level 3 feature is a ribbon that does help save 300gp per Revivify used on the Barbarian. However, in games where the DM does not homebrew the lack of revive spells (except for Revivify), it is useful combined with Rage Beyond Death. In my previous posts, I was trying to point out that Rage Beyond Death is extremely dangerous to use in this campaign because of the lack of True Resurrection that will revive someone turned to ash from Disintegrate (which is a real possibility, especially against Liches) which is why I suggested that the Barbarian take the Totem Warrior Primal Path.

As for the class 3 feature, any reasonable suggestions will fall on deaf ears. Taking criticism, and even "condescending" advice, is a skill best learned young because there will always be ways to improve and you are only stunting your own growth if you ignore constructive, even non-constructive, criticism.

Game balance is like an ecosystem, everything has the potential to affect each other, which is why amateur attempts at homebrew fail so often. Class features, like Rage Beyond Death were intended to be used in a game that also has True Resurrection--take that out and you are inadvertently nerfing the Zealot.

Again, if your post isn't about an ability to replace the free-revives feature, then it will indeed fall in deaf ears.

[Arkhios]

Calm down already about the off-topic self-insertation. Don't feel like it's important to you? Then simply ignore it and move on.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Simple fix is roll double the dice for healing when they are at 0 HP. Encourages the cleric to upcast those healing spells on their tank. Death brings glory!

This is an interesting idea. For a mechanical take that's already in the game (and a first level ability, I think), give them the reverse of the Grave Cleric Circle of Mortality ability. Anytime you are healed when you are at zero hit points, you can choose to take the max amount instead of rolling.

[moonfly7]

An alternative: you must fail five death saves, instead of three, before you die.

Makes each one less predictable, but still gives a buffer in the same place (and I think suggests "tenacity" a little more directly).

This is a pretty decent idea, a bit more powerful than the ribbon it replaces, but I liked the concept and no one was commenting on it, so I thought I'd let you know: I love the idea and I might steal it for homebrew.
Concerning the topic: I don't think advantage on death saves is OP, and the free revives is an ability that is very powerful IMO, advantage on death saves feels a bit much as a replacement. Here's my thoughts: you could probably leave it as is, I mean, not using 300 GP of demands is nice, since maybe you forgot to buy diamonds or can't afford them. But I agree that its usability is severely nerfed, but don't get rid of the free gold outright. Here's my personal suggestion:
You can cast reviving on the barbarian for free, AND the time period is extended by an hour. Now, this may seem to powerful here, but normally you could be getting thousands of gold off, and it is still situational, so it's not as universally useful as advantage on death saves.
This way, the thematics of a holy warrior who refuses to leave his fight is still there, and the character isn't probably going to die unless the cleric didn't prepare reviving, or is put of slots. Which is the only time he would have been likely to die in a normal campaign anyways.

[Nikushimi]

Advantage on death saving throws doesn't seem to be such a big deal actually, since enemies can always get you failed saving throws by just attacking.

I believe I will take this option, since it is about as useful as the free-revives, and is easy to understand.

The others are fairly easy to understand as well.

And yeah, enemies can always give you an automatic fail, but I rarely see that come up except in a situation where you place yourself in danger of that happening.

Most enemies will ignore you once you drop unless they are in a frenzy themselves or want to make sure you're dead, but in a world that doesn't have any, or very few, reviving mechanics, why would enemies think that they will get back up?

So, those automatic fails don't come up too often in my experience. So having Advantage on Death Saves is pretty huge at level 3 to replace a ribbon/fluff ability.

But it is your game, and if you find it isn't right for your campaign you can always change it.

[zinycor]

The others are fairly easy to understand as well.

And yeah, enemies can always give you an automatic fail, but I rarely see that come up except in a situation where you place yourself in danger of that happening.

Most enemies will ignore you once you drop unless they are in a frenzy themselves or want to make sure you're dead, but in a world that doesn't have any, or very few, reviving mechanics, why would enemies think that they will get back up?

So, those automatic fails don't come up too often in my experience. So having Advantage on Death Saves is pretty huge at level 3 to replace a ribbon/fluff ability.

But it is your game, and if you find it isn't right for your campaign you can always change it.

Really? That hasn't been my experience, in my experience is uite common for enemies to attack the downed opponents and is the PCs job to force them away...