What's Vegeta Alignment?

[Bartmanhomer]

Vegeta is a real mystery, In DBZ when Vegeta first appeared he's was Neutral Evil and as times goes by he shifted to True Neutral. Hmmm....this is a very difficult alignment to analyze. So what's Vegeta's true alignment? :confused:

[JadedDM]

I suppose it would depend where on the timeline he is. Are we talking when he first showed up or as he is now in Super? Or somewhere between?

[Bartmanhomer]

I suppose it would depend where on the timeline he is. Are we talking when he first showed up or as he is now in Super? Or somewhere between?

The whole history. (All of Vegeta timeline.)

[Lord Raziere]

Its Kakarot! or Saiyan Prince Neutral. But he might be edging closer to Kakarot! Good or Saiyan Prince Good in later years. :smalltongue:

[Bartmanhomer]

Its Kakarot! or Saiyan Prince Neutral. But he might be edging closer to Kakarot! Good or Saiyan Prince Good in later years. :smalltongue:

Really? Neutral I can dig but Good? :confused:

[Tvtyrant]

Starting:
Chaotic Evil

Cell Saga:
Chaotic Neutral bordering on evil

Buu Saga:
Chaotic Evil/chaotic neutral

Super:
Chaotic Good slowly turning to Lawful Good by the end of the Tournament of Power.

[Lord Raziere]

Really? Neutral I can dig but Good? :confused:

Admittedly he slid back into Kakarot! Evil during Majin Vegeta, but then suddenly a 180 into My Baby Boy! Good by sacrificing himself like. But then again, Vegeta is the Prince of all Saiyans, he don't need no limiting alignment system, and he would tell you that himself, hyping himself about he can't be contained by mere nerd alignments of some game. Vegeta's alignment is Vegeta, he does what he wants. If he wants to be good, he will be.

[Bartmanhomer]

Starting:
Chaotic Evil

Cell Saga:
Chaotic Neutral bordering on evil

Buu Saga:
Chaotic Evil/chaotic neutral

Super:
Chaotic Good slowly turning to Lawful Good by the end of the Tournament of Power.

Well I never seen Super so I can't make any objection on that. Character can change from time to time.

[Peelee]

Vegeta is the Prince of all Saiyans, he don't need no limiting alignment system

Best answer right there. One does not simply constrain the Prince of all Saiyans!

[Bartmanhomer]

Admittedly he slid back into Kakarot! Evil during Majin Vegeta, but then suddenly a 180 into My Baby Boy! Good by sacrificing himself like. But then again, Vegeta is the Prince of all Saiyans, he don't need no limiting alignment system, and he would tell you that himself, hyping himself about he can't be contained by mere nerd alignments of some game. Vegeta's alignment is Vegeta, he does what he wants. If he wants to be good, he will be.
Ok you convince me to have a very reasonable answer. :biggrin:

[HolyDraconus]

Currently? I would peg him for NG.

Saiyan Saga: LE. He was evil, no doubt about it, but he DID follow orders, DID keep his word (mostly) and handled things as you would expect an LE character to handle them.

Freeza Saga: NE. Still evil, but he turned on Freeza, so not following orders anymore. Most of what he does during this Saga was self interest, even challenging Freeza. He's still methodical in what he's doing, but its more for himself and less on behalf of others.

Cell Saga: N. TECHNICALLY i wanted to say he's still evil.... but he doesn't actually DO a whole lot here that can be explained away as purely malicious. Add in that he genuinely shown some degree of empathy, including his rage over Trunks biting it, and I just can't see him as the same evil monster as he was in the Saiyan Saga.

Buu Saga: CN. Its pretty much broken into two halves during this arc, and I felt that CN better represented him on the whole thing. First half you can bet your ass that he fell back down into the alignment pool, with wiping a stadium full of people away, but with his sacrifice being the START of his path towards being a better person giving him an E for this arc just felt off. He shows near the end of it his growth, even admitting that Goku is better than him, and genuinely wanted to save the Earth. He isn't good, though he did make some strides towards that, but he's not evil anymore at the end of it, either.

SUPER:
He pretty much starts where he left off, but plateaus at NG. He's not an evil monster anymore, not by a long shot, but he's not exactly what I would call honorable. He lives by his pride, but has shown on SEVERAL occasions during this era that he is willing to throw it away for the greater good. He wants to and fights like a cerebral warrior, but isn't afraid to get dirty if its inline with the greater good. A good example is the entire interaction with Cabba. He is a FAR more loving husband here ( That's My Bulma being infamous at this point) and is a far better father than Goku can wish to be, even getting up there to rivaling Piccolo in parenting. IF his growth continued I don't see him reaching higher than NG. He's never going to be a beacon of Goodness, which is what's expected of LG, but he's fine with that.

[AvatarVecna]

Neutral Angry.

[Cypher5]

One step behind Kakarot's alignment, but single-minded in his pursuit to surpass him no matter what.

[Starbuck_II]

Vegeta is a real mystery, In DBZ when Vegeta first appeared he's was Neutral Evil and as times goes by he shifted to True Neutral. Hmmm....this is a very difficult alignment to analyze. So what's Vegeta's true alignment? :confused:

NE?
No, he was Lawful Evil.
Bountifully serving his master Frieza after the loss of his poor da' (not knowing Frieza killed him). Remenber, all his evil was to serve his master. Saiyans conquered planets as part of Freeza's army.

During Frieza Saga, he turns Neutral Evil (he starts killing Frieza's men for dragon balls). He stopped being a stooge. He still was evil, but working with instead of against Frieza was to his own interests. He no longer cared about mercenary work and serving others.

He was ready to serve himself.
His own needs were met by liking Bulma, wanting to learn from Goku about getting stronger (super Saiyan), etc. Still wanted to do Evil but he isn't stupid, he had to suppress those thoughts if he wanted Goku to teach him.

But that is hard so he leaves Earth to find Goku. He travels to a nearby Frieza group that might have info on Goku, slaughters everyone, but one to question. He saved the wrong on so he kills him. He thinks maybe he can train on his own in space, but that fails so he keeps searching.

He decides to start his own empire so he travels to "Appul" planet, slaughters that don't serve him (which is all of them). Since all his plans fail, he comes back to Earth to wait. Bulma easily soothes his ego and he falls for her. Then he finds out there is another Saiyan stronger than him (Trunks), hurting his ego.
He starts becoming Neutral right before Mai-jin Saga (becoming evil while having symbol, of course, but reverting when revived)

He doesn't become Good I say till Super.

[Lord Raziere]

One step behind Kakarot's alignment, but single-minded in his pursuit to surpass him no matter what.

Whoa now, lets not give too much credit to ol' Kakarot. pure good and heroic goku was a dubism, Goku's always been a blood knight anti-hero who fights because he finds it fun and just so happens to run into evil people that luckily need a pounding to set them straight. Vegeta's character development does NOT hinge on Goku's at all, because Goku has been the same battle-happy idiot since he got down from Kami's Lookout, he may have been more violent before then- he did wipe out the Red Ribbon Army- but he's been the same guy since Kami made Goku peaceful and Vegeta has grown into a much better person than he used to be thanks to pretty much everyone BUT Goku. all Goku has done is enable Vegeta's worst impulses to seek ever greater challenges to prove he is stronger than him and cause many of the problems in later sagas.

they're both blood knight anti heroes, its just that Goku is just a nicer idiotic one who luckily gets the win every time and Vegeta is the meaner smarter one who doesn't, thats all.

[JadedDM]

Vegeta may have obeyed Freeza, but he didn't do it because he valued rule of law or hierarchy, he did it because he feared Freeza. The moment he was able to rebel against him (when he learned of the dragon balls and realized they could be used to defeat him), he did so.

So I don't think you could call Vegeta 'Lawful.'

[KillianHawkeye]

I would have to call his alignment 'Chaotic Vegeta' and leave it at that. :smallamused:

[Peelee]

Whoa now, lets not give too much credit to ol' Kakarot. pure good and heroic goku was a dubism, Goku's always been a blood knight anti-hero who fights because he finds it fun and just so happens to run into evil people that luckily need a pounding to set them straight.

No, Goku was pretty much hard-core Good in Dragon Ball.

[Lord Raziere]

No, Goku was pretty much hard-core Good in Dragon Ball.

Keyword: WAS. :smallamused:

It has been long time since then, with many questionable decisions made along the way.

[Zevox]

Well, Renegade (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkCd5hn3yrI), clearly.

More seriously, I'd agree with JadedDM that he was never Lawful. Not entirely sure whether NE or CE fit him better earlier on, but I think I lean towards NE. And obviously he slowly drifts north, probably solidly True Neutral and perhaps starting to inch towards good by the end of Z. Haven't seen Super, can't comment on him there. Still remains kind of an ass even as he loses his more completely malicious tendencies though.

[GrayDeath]

Angry and Proud! (or prideful Angry?).
Renegade sums it up nicely too.

Also, its VegetaS Alignment. Try to at least phrase your questions with correct grammar, if you have to insist To Capitalyze Every Word. ^^


As for the Question itself: Mostly he is Evil travelling towards neutral. The fact he does good" things for the people he actually cares about doesnt make him Good. In Super he tends to actually Do good though (at least as far as I ahve watched it), so...who knows. he might end up a Angry Paladin some time ^^

[Aotrs Commander]

Vertical while blustering, followed very quickly by horizontal.

[Tvtyrant]

He murdered his allies on Earth, and then his former allies on Namek with total glee. He also killed or injured any innocents he came across until back on Earth after Namek, and never suggests any sort of relationship with society. Plus he steals the Briefs spaceship after knocking up Bulma; he is clearly chaotic in my mind until after the Buu saga.

[Peelee]

Keyword: WAS. :smallamused:

It has been long time since then, with many questionable decisions made along the way.

True I was just contesting your "always has been.":smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

I feel Vegeta was initially NE, as he was willing to compromise his own desire and sense of self to further his agenda. As per his service to Freeza.

But then, realizing the power of full self fulfillment with Kakarot, he stopped being a slave to anyone but his own desire and became a full Chaotic Evil, unwilling to compromise to anyone or anything.

During the Cell Saga, he started to sway toward Chaotic Neutral. He was still unwilling to compromise with anything or anyone when it came to his course of action, but he was no longer driven solely by selfish desires.

The Buu saga had him sway from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good-ish. He still never compromised about what he wanted, but.. He cared more.

[Ramza00]

Vegeta:
So what are you doing here?

Gohan:
Oh, you know, just, flying around.

Vegeta:
Flying around?

Gohan:
Flying around.

Vegeta:
Thwarting my plans?

Gohan:
Thwarting your plans?

Vegeta:
Are you?

Gohan:
No.

Vegeta:
Good, 'cause that would be bad.

Gohan:
How bad?

Vegeta:
I'd have to kill you.

Gohan:
That's bad.

Vegeta:
Indeed.

Vegeta is one of the examples of where the alingment does not apply. He is more like an animal who lives outside society even when he lives inside it. He is not social instead beating to his own drum. He temporary fits within Freeza's hierarchy out of fear. Once he got the simultaneously humiliation but also learning of power to control his destiny he moves outside Frieza's organization and tears it up from the inside.

Vegeta is not human,he is a wild but half tame yet simultaneously half feral cat mumbling pride comments where he eats cat food that the humans leave outside. Occassionally the feral cat will a human pet him creating a temporary social interaction.

----

Law vs Chaos, Good vs Evil are human constructs the Prince of Sayans is beyond good and evil, he is Nietzsche's Superman who beats to his own drum.

And like DBA's Future Trunks asked his mother at his return wht did you not tell me?

[Cikomyr]

Vegeta is one of the examples of where the alingment does not apply. He is more like an animal who lives outside society even when he lives inside it. He is not social instead beating to his own drum. He temporary fits within Freeza's hierarchy out of fear. Once he got the simultaneously humiliation but also learning of power to control his destiny he moves outside Frieza's organization and tears it up from the inside.



That's Chaotic in my book. The Ubermench is pure chaotic, for they refuse to let anyone or anything else than their own desire shape their destiny.

[Ramza00]

That's Chaotic in my book. The Ubermench is pure chaotic, for they refuse to let anyone or anything else than their own desire shape their destiny.

Nods and that is why D&D alingment is flawed. Is it a relation to society, is it unpredictable behavior, is it having an internal code?


With many NPCs alingment makes sense, but with other people we need more than 9 colors in the crayon coloring box to describe complicated people.

Ubermench is simultaneously lawful for he has his own code he follows almost religiously but not quite, simultaneously he is neutral for he challenges it constantly so he is not autopilot and this makes him feel alive feeling his values mentally and via action aka doing, and lastly is chaotic for they do not care about false values of society that are merely tradition and do not affirm the present, false values spread over time and space by society. (Note Nietzsche may believe the values were once legimitate he was critizing when society changed but we keep the same old values without realizing this means we are acting like machines and not man. Then again Nietzsche is sometimes sane and brilliant other times, insane and / or bitter he had crappy relationships.)

Vegeta as the Dragonball Superman of Nietzsche is apt.

[Peelee]

Vegeta is not human

I should hope so! The Prince of all Saiyans should be a Saiyan.

[Cikomyr]

The more I've thought about morality, the more I find the descriptive of "having a code" to be innapropriate for the lawful alignment.

Lawful is understanding that moral norms have value of their own, and that society sometimes takes precedence over what you may think is right.

But maybe that's just me.

[The Glyphstone]

The more I've thought about morality, the more I find the descriptive of "having a code" to be innapropriate for the lawful alignment.

Lawful is understanding that moral norms have value of their own, and that society sometimes takes precedence over what you may think is right.

But maybe that's just me.

Acceptance of an external code/set of norms versus dependence on an internal code, perhaps? Chaotic characters can have codes of behavior, and sometimes stick to them rigidly, but the distinction is that it's their personal code and no one else's. Whereas someone like a paladin follows the Paladin's Code, an oath and set of ideals followed by all paladins everywhere.

[Cikomyr]

Acceptance of an external code/set of norms versus dependence on an internal code, perhaps? Chaotic characters can have codes of behavior, and sometimes stick to them rigidly, but the distinction is that it's their personal code and no one else's. Whereas someone like a paladin follows the Paladin's Code, an oath and set of ideals followed by all paladins everywhere.

Precisely. Have you read the Practical Guide to Evil? There's a great description during the first part of Book 4, I think, where the main character describes Archer's unwillingness to ever go against her beliefs, no matter what allegiance or oath or authority that try to restrict her. That was the best description of a chaotic alignment I've ever read.

[The Glyphstone]

Precisely. Have you read the Practical Guide to Evil? There's a great description during the first part of Book 4, I think, where the main character describes Archer's unwillingness to ever go against her beliefs, no matter what allegiance or oath or authority that try to restrict her. That was the best description of a chaotic alignment I've ever read.

I'm still occasionally reflexively checking for updates before I remember it's on hiatus.

[Dienekes]

The more I've thought about morality, the more I find the descriptive of "having a code" to be innapropriate for the lawful alignment.

Lawful is understanding that moral norms have value of their own, and that society sometimes takes precedence over what you may think is right.

But maybe that's just me.

But then you fall into the "Paladin in the Underdark" problem. How does a lawful good character react when in a society where the law is not good? If society always takes precedence over personal morals, then the paladin starts accepting slavery, human sacrifice, and worse. And promptly falls.

In my opinion, Lawful just means that the character believes that a law code is the best way to govern themselves and society at large. A Lawful Evil will love those laws because they can warp them to become a tool for their own dominance. A Lawful Neutral will follow laws for the sake of laws, or stability. And Lawful Good will strive for laws that they believe will create the most good world they can.

That's usually why I always peg Princess Leia as pretty much the paragon of Lawful Good. Her entire goal is to bring about a just and lawful government. If she must rebel to do it, so what? The current regime is literally ruled by an evil wizard that ordered the death of children. In that situation one rebels, for the purpose of creating a better government. As opposed to the Chaotic Good, who would rebel because "screw those guys."

Anyway, as to Vegeta. He does not care for laws of any kind, though he follows a few just because it's convenient to not get killed for the moment. He believes he's above them. That's Chaotic. He definitely starts out Evil. And I'd argue he remained Evil at least through the Cell Saga. There's a reason during his fight with Andriod 18 he kills or endangers several passersby. And he's willing to risk destroying the entire world just to get a better fight and prove he's the best. Even attacking his own son to do so. That's Evil.

Honestly, I don't think he ever really goes to Neutral over the Buu saga. So he has a loved one. So what? He straight up tells Goku he let himself become Majin because he felt he'd gone soft. And then promptly kills more innocents. That's an evil person, who just hadn't done anything particularly note worthily evil recently. He still puts his whims above the lives of others.

For the D&D alignment, I tend to see the following as the split in the good vs evil.
Good: Tries to help others
Neutral: Tries to avoid harming others where possible
Evil: Doesn't care

Vegeta does not care about others. Just some small group he is attached to.

Though to go a step further, conviction, as is described by someone choosing not to go against their beliefs, is outside alignment. You can have conviction for law or individuality or good or self-interest or even villainy.

[Cikomyr]

But then you fall into the "Paladin in the Underdark" problem. How does a lawful good character react when in a society where the law is not good? If society always takes precedence over personal morals, then the paladin starts accepting slavery, human sacrifice, and worse. And promptly falls.


That's why he is Lawful *Good*, not merely Lawful.

A Paladin would simply acknowledge that the society he witnesses is self destructive and not in the interest of its own citizens, therefore explaining why he disregard that external sets of rules.

However, in a fair and square society, the same paladin might be willing to entrust moral judgement in that society 's legal or governing system.

Alternatively, a Lawful Evil individual might be willing to compromise his own selfish desires to adhere to a ruling code of a society or a Tyrant because he knows it will be beneficial to him in the long run, whereas a Chaotic Evil will never compromise on his desires.

Ultimately, the Chaotic side of the alignment, truly followed, is the way of the Ubermench, regardless if its good or evil. It's the way of people who refuse have their actions dictated by a system outside of themselves. They can still be good or evil, or in between, but hell if they allow other people make them compromise.

[deuterio12]

There's a reason during his fight with Andriod 18 he kills or endangers several passersby. And he's willing to risk destroying the entire world just to get a better fight and prove he's the best. Even attacking his own son to do so. That's Evil.


That's pretty much also Goku to be fair, they'll both risk the world's destruction just to have a good scrap. And at least Vegeta isn't throwing full heal items at their enemies when they're about to fight his own son when he's still an underage kid.

[Lord Raziere]

But then you fall into the "Paladin in the Underdark" problem. How does a lawful good character react when in a society where the law is not good? If society always takes precedence over personal morals, then the paladin starts accepting slavery, human sacrifice, and worse. And promptly falls.


Simple.

They aren't a 21st century moral relativist made cynical by their awareness of the subjective nature of civilization. they're a fantasy person in an earlier age whose idea of "civilization" is strictly what they define it as and what they define it as, is what they grew up with, which just so happens to be a civilization that is good in all the way that matters to us, and to them whats evil is "uncivilized": slavery, human sacrifice is just barbaric to them and thus not worth humoring as civilized behavior in the slightest.

[Reddish Mage]

People saying Vegeta was ever lawful are misinterpreting his motives and forgetting his actions.

Saiyan Saga Vegeta is “working” for Freeza, but immediately thinks of getting the Dragon Balls for himself.

That alone is consistent with Neutral Evil but Vegeta also enjoys and relishes destruction for its own sake. He goes and kills Napa, his own ally, without a good reason. Throughout the entirety of both series Vegeta is given to acting on his whim and changing his mind without warning. We even see major changes to his character (like becoming a father...and a dedicated one) happen during time skips, which wouldn’t be so remarkable but consider how static the other characters are, or to the extent they change, how those changes are a sort of natural outgrowth of the character’s personalities.

Vegeta is chaotic, probably the one of the most chaotic characters you can find and we’ve seen what Majin Buu can do.

[rcom12]

He's just. At least what do I think.

[Psyren]

I'm with Reddish Mage on this one, he was never Lawful and probably not even Neutral. All his alliances and allegiances were matters of convenience, he's betrayed every single one of them at some point, and he readily cheats to get ahead even when he's with the good guys. And yes, when he did obey Freeza it was out of fear, which even demons do.

[deuterio12]

People saying Vegeta was ever lawful are misinterpreting his motives and forgetting his actions.

Saiyan Saga Vegeta is “working” for Freeza, but immediately thinks of getting the Dragon Balls for himself.

That alone is consistent with Neutral Evil but Vegeta also enjoys and relishes destruction for its own sake. He goes and kills Napa, his own ally, without a good reason. Throughout the entirety of both series Vegeta is given to acting on his whim and changing his mind without warning. We even see major changes to his character (like becoming a father...and a dedicated one) happen during time skips, which wouldn’t be so remarkable but consider how static the other characters are, or to the extent they change, how those changes are a sort of natural outgrowth of the character’s personalities.

Vegeta is chaotic, probably the one of the most chaotic characters you can find and we’ve seen what Majin Buu can do.

Although I do agree that Vegeta isn't lawful and quite probably chaotic, he did have valid reasons to get rid of Napa:
-Napa was even more of a psycopath than Vegeta. Notice how Napa's the one racking up all the kills on Earth while Vegeta doesn't actually kill anybody himself. Vegeta was probably looking for any opportunity to get rid of an unstable and dangerous "ally" that probably would've backstabbed him even faster if their positions were reversed.
-Vegeta often favors personal power above everything else. By being defeated, Napa had shown to have outlived his usefulness. Cull the weak just like they didn't care to ressurect the defeated Raditz (although Vegeta hadn't learned of the whole "sayans get stronger after being defeated", otherwise he may've probably spared Napa).

[Raimun]

During the whole show:

Chaotic *******.

[KillianHawkeye]

Although I do agree that Vegeta isn't lawful and quite probably chaotic, he did have valid reasons to get rid of Napa:
-Napa was even more of a psycopath than Vegeta. Notice how Napa's the one racking up all the kills on Earth while Vegeta doesn't actually kill anybody himself. Vegeta was probably looking for any opportunity to get rid of an unstable and dangerous "ally" that probably would've backstabbed him even faster if their positions were reversed.

Note: The ONLY reason that Vegeta didn't kill anyone on Earth is because even Piccolo and the other warriors (except Goku) were just so weak that they weren't even worth fighting. Vegeta, at that time, did not squash pathetic ants himself. He's an aristocrat. Squashing ants is what the help is for.

The reason he killed Nappa was that he failed to kill Goku and had therefore outlived his usefulness. There is no reason to think that Nappa is any more psychopathic or unstable than Raditz or Vegeta or Freeza. They all equally killed whoever was in their way (until they couldn't anymore). Freeza also had no compunctions against killing his own minions, and also did not fight until he ran out of underlings because he was so much more powerful than his enemies.

[Ramza00]

Vegeta, at that time, did not squash pathetic ants himself. He's an aristocrat. Squashing ants is what the help is for.

Bingo...:smallamused:

[Cikomyr]

Note: The ONLY reason that Vegeta didn't kill anyone on Earth is because even Piccolo and the other warriors (except Goku) were just so weak that they weren't even worth fighting. Vegeta, at that time, did not squash pathetic ants himself. He's an aristocrat. Squashing ants is what the help is for.

The reason he killed Nappa was that he failed to kill Goku and had therefore outlived his usefulness. There is no reason to think that Nappa is any more psychopathic or unstable than Raditz or Vegeta or Freeza. They all equally killed whoever was in their way (until they couldn't anymore). Freeza also had no compunctions against killing his own minions, and also did not fight until he ran out of underlings because he was so much more powerful than his enemies.

But it's a bit silly. There has to be a middle ground between "Nappa is there to crush those beneath me" and "I will kill Nappa the second he is beaten, since it demonstrated his uselessness"

Those Nappa can't beat are not beneath Vegeta. Why kill Nappa because of it?

[Peelee]

But it's a bit silly. There has to be a middle ground between "Nappa is there to crush those beneath me" and "I will kill Nappa the second he is beaten, since it demonstrated his uselessness"

Those Nappa can't beat are not beneath Vegeta. Why kill Nappa because of it?
You're absolutely correct. Of course, if we were to ask him...

Sucks to be Nappa.

[Battleship789]

But it's a bit silly. There has to be a middle ground between "Nappa is there to crush those beneath me" and "I will kill Nappa the second he is beaten, since it demonstrated his uselessness"

Those Nappa can't beat are not beneath Vegeta. Why kill Nappa because of it?

I don't think it's made explicit in the anime, but Goku breaks Nappa's back, paralyzing him. So it isn't that Nappa lost to Goku, but that Nappa can't fight anymore (ignoring the possibility that those healing pods could heal Nappa's back.)

[deuterio12]

Note: The ONLY reason that Vegeta didn't kill anyone on Earth is because even Piccolo and the other warriors (except Goku) were just so weak that they weren't even worth fighting. Vegeta, at that time, did not squash pathetic ants himself. He's an aristocrat. Squashing ants is what the help is for.

Vegeta crushes an anthill blows up a whole world himself on the way to Earth. He didn't go "Napa please kill them all", he got his own hands dirty.




The reason he killed Nappa was that he failed to kill Goku and had therefore outlived his usefulness. There is no reason to think that Nappa is any more psychopathic or unstable than Raditz or Vegeta or Freeza. They all equally killed whoever was in their way (until they couldn't anymore). Freeza also had no compunctions against killing his own minions, and also did not fight until he ran out of underlings because he was so much more powerful than his enemies.

Freeza also enjoys blowing up planets full of ants (like the sayan one) even when he has minions remaining.

Although as pointed out in my previous post and that you ommited, I also support the "you've outlived yoursefulness" reason.


I don't think it's made explicit in the anime, but Goku breaks Nappa's back, paralyzing him. So it isn't that Nappa lost to Goku, but that Nappa can't fight anymore (ignoring the possibility that those healing pods could heal Nappa's back.)

Speaking of which there's also the matter of warrior's pride. Better to fall in battle than crawl back home with your ass beaten. Return with your shield or on top of it, death before dishonor, etc, etc. Sayan society was quite full of it (doesn't stop Vegeta from being an hypocrite when it's his own ass beaten though, but that's royalty for you, fighting to the death is for minions, the king/prince should survive at all costs).

[Lord Raziere]

Vegeta crushes an anthill blows up a whole world himself on the way to Earth. He didn't go "Napa please kill them all", he got his own hands dirty.


....actually I looked it up, Terror on Arlia is filler. there is no corresponding chapter in the manga where Vegeta does that.

[KillianHawkeye]

But it's a bit silly. There has to be a middle ground between "Nappa is there to crush those beneath me" and "I will kill Nappa the second he is beaten, since it demonstrated his uselessness"

Those Nappa can't beat are not beneath Vegeta. Why kill Nappa because of it?

Goku was supposed to be a lower-class warrior, so Vegeta still considered him unworthy but decided to fight him to teach him a lesson on why you don't challenge your betters. If he had any other minions besides Nappa, he probably still wouldn't have fought Goku himself.

In other words, Nappa is himself so far beneath Vegeta that there is a gap between people who can beat Nappa and people who are actually worth Vegeta's time to fight. And to be honest, without Kaio-ken multiplying his power level, Goku wouldn't have stood any chance at a toe-to-toe fight with Vegeta at that time.


Vegeta crushes an anthill blows up a whole world himself on the way to Earth. He didn't go "Napa please kill them all", he got his own hands dirty.

Freeza also enjoys blowing up planets full of ants (like the sayan one) even when he has minions remaining.

It may be a minor point, but there's a big difference between blowing up an entire planet of ants and stomping on individual ants directly. Vegeta is more of a planet guy.

I also wouldn't consider blowing up a planet from space to be "getting your hands dirty" as such.


....actually I looked it up, Terror on Arlia is filler. there is no corresponding chapter in the manga where Vegeta does that.

Also, this.

Then again, if you ignore all the filler, you never get Garlic Jr or that one time where Goku and Piccolo have to get their driver's licenses. :smallwink::smallamused:

[Peelee]

Then again, if you ignore all the filler, you never get... that one time where Goku and Piccolo have to get their driver's licenses. :smallwink::smallamused:

Which is the greatest argument ever for filler, I tells ya!

[Tvtyrant]

On Vegetas' rank: as far as Vegeta knows, he is already the third strongest thing in existence. His Oozaru is stronger then Ginyu, only Cold and Frieza are stronger.

Heck if he had Oozaru on Namek it would have been stronger then second form Frieza, and if after little green healed him Frieza would have had to go to 50% to best him. He has every reason to be arrogant, his species is pure hacks.

[deuterio12]

It may be a minor point, but there's a big difference between blowing up an entire planet of ants and stomping on individual ants directly. Vegeta is more of a planet guy.

I also wouldn't consider blowing up a planet from space to be "getting your hands dirty" as such.


Ha, but before blowing up the planet Vegeta still got his hands full of gross slime fighting some of the natives along Napa. The prince was enjoying stomping individual ants side by side with his minion until he got bored and went "I'll just kill them all myself in one swoop".

And the first time we actually see Vegeta, he's getting his hands quite dirty chewing on some alien corpse.

[KillianHawkeye]

My momma always told me that filler is as filler does.

[deuterio12]

https://i.postimg.cc/CxTSMZ4r/db2c.png

If the main manga is filler, then everything is filler.

[Lord Raziere]

https://i.postimg.cc/CxTSMZ4r/db2c.png

If the main manga is filler, then everything is filler.

That is not the episode Terror on Arlia. and therefore not filler. do not mistake one for the other. eating an alien's arm is not blowing up a planet.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm not even sure Vegeta can blow up a planet at that power level. The lowest we ever see do it is Frieza at first form, which is 200k+. Only over 10 times as strong.

I know he says he can, but we never see if that is true.

[Peelee]

I'm not even sure Vegeta can blow up a planet at that power level. The lowest we ever see do it is Frieza at first form, which is 200k+. Only over 10 times as strong.

I know he says he can, but we never see if that is true.

Roshi can blow up the moon, and is significantly lower power level than Vegeta.

[Lord Raziere]

Roshi can blow up the moon, and is significantly lower power level than Vegeta.

piccolo has also blown up the moon in the manga, so Piccolo blowing up a planetoid is more canon than Vegeta blowing up a planet.

so yeah, its perfectly possible at the hundreds PL digits, the moon has been blown up twice with PL's lower than Raditz, and the moon is only a quarter size of the earth. its perfectly possible for Raditz or Nappa to do it, before we ever get to Vegeta.

[Tvtyrant]

DBZ moons aren't reality moons though. For instance they have atmospheres that can sustain gangster rabbits, and only require as much effort to destroy as a mountain.

[Lord Raziere]

DBZ moons aren't reality moons though. For instance they have atmospheres that can sustain gangster rabbits, and only require as much effort to destroy as a mountain.

I dunno that doesn't prove anything, monster carrot already has the random ability to turn people into carrots, why not be able to breath in space as well?

yeah but said mountain is a magical mountain made fiery by a wizard, we don't know if its as weak as a regular mountain.

[Cikomyr]

I'm not even sure Vegeta can blow up a planet at that power level. The lowest we ever see do it is Frieza at first form, which is 200k+. Only over 10 times as strong.

I know he says he can, but we never see if that is true.

Vegeta could blow up the Earth. He outright claimed he would do it once he couldnt Beat Goku with Kaioken 3, and he used his Galick Gun from the air toward the ground.

Goku countered with Kamehameha, but they were evenly matched. Only when Goku went Kaioken 4 did he saved the earth.

[Peelee]

I dunno that doesn't prove anything, monster carrot already has the random ability to turn people into carrots, why not be able to breath in space as well?

yeah but said mountain is a magical mountain made fiery by a wizard, we don't know if its as weak as a regular mountain.

Imean, if we're calling mountains "weak," how strong is a planet really?

[Tvtyrant]

Vegeta could blow up the Earth. He outright claimed he would do it once he couldnt Beat Goku with Kaioken 3, and he used his Galick Gun from the air toward the ground.

Goku countered with Kamehameha, but they were evenly matched. Only when Goku went Kaioken 4 did he saved the earth.

That is what I just said? We never see one blown up until Frieza, but Vegeta (unreliable narrator) claims he can while in a fit of rage.

[Cikomyr]

That is what I just said? We never see one blown up until Frieza, but Vegeta (unreliable narrator) claims he can while in a fit of rage.

I'd say Vegeta knows if he can blow up a planet or not.

Freeza could do it casually, that's all.

[Lord Raziere]

Imean, if we're calling mountains "weak," how strong is a planet really?

Really strong, given that Roshi was one of the only few people who can wield ki at all on Earth at all at the time.

like, you must understand. Master shen and Roshi were the only two humans who could use ki before people like Goku, Krillin and Tien and such came along to learn under them. before the series started, there maybe three or four people who knew ki was even a THING. Dragonball wasn't like the modern shonen anime where such powers are taught everywhere, ki is mostly unknown on Earth.

and the wider universe, isn't much better. sure there is Freeza and the Namekians, but the Namekians are isolated to one planet, Freeza got his power through pure talent and no training, and the freeza force seems to be mostly made up of thugs who don't really learn techniques they just had natural advantages and willingness to kill others. the Saiyans are the only race mentioned that Freeza wiped out because he/Beerus saw them as a threat, which implies that races who are actually good at using ki on a wide scale are actually pretty rare.
this is reinforced by Jaco, who doesn't even use basic ki blasts he uses a laser gun instead, further implying that the Galactic Patrol doesn't really have a lot of knowledge of ki either, despite knowing that freeza was a thing.

and no one really filled the power void after Freeza died, so its not as if Freeza had any ki-using competitors. Buu was this singular monstrosity from time immemorial. while the androids were all things made by Gero in a cave and never made it into mass production.

and in the newest Broly movie during the flashback segment, there are saiyans who use freaking GUNS as if those things are effective at all so its implied that not even all saiyans are warriors like vegeta or goku.

ki is actually pretty freaking rare apparently.

[KillianHawkeye]

Really strong, given that Roshi was one of the only few people who can wield ki at all on Earth at all at the time.

like, you must understand. Master shen and Roshi were the only two humans who could use ki before people like Goku, Krillin and Tien and such came along to learn under them. before the series started, there maybe three or four people who knew ki was even a THING. Dragonball wasn't like the modern shonen anime where such powers are taught everywhere, ki is mostly unknown on Earth.

Okay, no, that's not right at all.

There are certainly a lot of people who can use ki on the Earth, as it's an eastern mystical art. Most ki users aren't strong enough to use it directly as a weapon, but many people in the Dragon Ball world are definitely aware of ki or chakras or whatever. There is no way that Roshi and Shen and their students are the only people on Earth who have these powers. There are many examples in the original DB tournament arcs.

Even Mister Satan probably utilizes a small amount of ki in his martial arts, or he wouldn't have been able to win the one World Martial Arts Tournament that the main characters didn't go to.


and the wider universe, isn't much better. sure there is Freeza and the Namekians, but the Namekians are isolated to one planet, Freeza got his power through pure talent and no training, and the freeza force seems to be mostly made up of thugs who don't really learn techniques they just had natural advantages and willingness to kill others. the Saiyans are the only race mentioned that Freeza wiped out because he/Beerus saw them as a threat, which implies that races who are actually good at using ki on a wide scale are actually pretty rare.
this is reinforced by Jaco, who doesn't even use basic ki blasts he uses a laser gun instead, further implying that the Galactic Patrol doesn't really have a lot of knowledge of ki either, despite knowing that freeza was a thing.

There are a lot of planets where people had some powers or special techniques. The Yardrats' instant transmission is based entirely on sensing ki, for example. A lot of magical powers that certain characters possessed are just different ways of manipulating ki, because ki is just energy. Dende's healing ability is based on ki. Those fish guys who were psychic (from the Bardock special) probably couldn't see the future without ki. Baba's fortune telling and other powers are probably fueled by the same mystical energy as ki powers. A lot of the physical martial arts moves that people do in Dragon Ball are subtly enhanced by ki. Many of Freeza's henchmen (except for the REALLY low level ones) used ki-based attacks, and they were from many different planets. There's no evidence to say that they didn't train and learn techniques just because Freeza himself didn't.

And Freeza didn't kill the Saiyans because he was afraid of their ki. He had more ki then all of them combined (at the time). He didn't like their attitude and the fact that they believed in a legendary super warrior who was supposedly, and as it turned out, factually, able to challenge Freeza himself. He only destroyed their planet so that they wouldn't be even more annoying later on.

As for Jaco and the Galactic Patrol agents, he's entirely a joke character and there's neither any reason to think that Jaco is representative of the power level of an average Galactic Patrol agent, or that the Galactic Patrol itself isn't also a joke. They don't prove anything.



At the end of the day, Dragon Ball is the story of exceptional people doing exceptional things. By nature, it shows a collection of the best and strongest people in the world/galaxy/multiverse. That doesn't mean that there aren't any other people with similar (albeit lesser) abilities in the world, just that they aren't the focus of the story.

[Lord Raziere]

Okay, no, that's not right at all.

There are certainly a lot of people who can use ki on the Earth, as it's an eastern mystical art. Most ki users aren't strong enough to use it directly as a weapon, but many people in the Dragon Ball world are definitely aware of ki or chakras or whatever. There is no way that Roshi and Shen and their students are the only people on Earth who have these powers. There are many examples in the original DB tournament arcs.

Even Mister Satan probably utilizes a small amount of ki in his martial arts, or he wouldn't have been able to win the one World Martial Arts Tournament that the main characters didn't go to.


Are you sure about that? :smallbiggrin:

original DB fighters that have no connection Shen or Roshi, first tournament:
Bacterian- all he has is a really bad smell
Ranfan- a female fighter who used her....feminine attributes to try and win
Nam- some guy from the desert wanting to get water for his village
Giran- is a fat pterodactyl man who spits a strange gum for his mouth

none of these are consistent with ki abilities

Second tournament:
man-wolf: is just a guy who cannot turn back into a man because Jackie chun destroyed the moon last tournament and wants revenge (huh, the moon being destroyed DID have consequences, wow)
Pamput: is just a kickboxer who is arrogant

Third tournament:
no one except two if you count the namekians


There are a lot of planets where people had some powers or special techniques. The Yardrats' instant transmission is based entirely on sensing ki, for example. A lot of magical powers that certain characters possessed are just different ways of manipulating ki, because ki is just energy. Dende's healing ability is based on ki. Those fish guys who were psychic (from the Bardock special) probably couldn't see the future without ki. Baba's fortune telling and other powers are probably fueled by the same mystical energy as ki powers. A lot of the physical martial arts moves that people do in Dragon Ball are subtly enhanced by ki. Many of Freeza's henchmen (except for the REALLY low level ones) used ki-based attacks, and they were from many different planets. There's no evidence to say that they didn't train and learn techniques just because Freeza himself didn't.

And Freeza didn't kill the Saiyans because he was afraid of their ki. He had more ki then all of them combined (at the time). He didn't like their attitude and the fact that they believed in a legendary super warrior who was supposedly, and as it turned out, factually, able to challenge Freeza himself. He only destroyed their planet so that they wouldn't be even more annoying later on.

As for Jaco and the Galactic Patrol agents, he's entirely a joke character and there's neither any reason to think that Jaco is representative of the power level of an average Galactic Patrol agent, or that the Galactic Patrol itself isn't also a joke. They don't prove anything.


sorry, the old Bardock special isn't canon, unfortunately, never was. especially not with the new Broly movie out.

mm, no sorry, your assumptions about being "subtly enhanced" holds no water. its not explicitly said they're using ki and if they were, Goku would be able to sense it.

and Namekians are isolated and how many namekians actually fought back against Freeza? oh right about.....four.

and how many people are within said freeza force? look at how varied each grunt is, there can't be anything more than say..... 30-50 minions every time we see them at most, out of what, entire galaxies of potential ki users? shouldn't there be far more than that? space is big, mind-bogglingly so. and none of them were formally trained in ki combat, if freeza can ki blast and fly without training, what makes you think others can't?

speaking of which, lets take a look at the Ginyu Force, his most elite members, their backstories:

Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Burter's special powers originated during his childhood: Burter's mother was very strict, making him do all the household chores and slapping him if he was late preparing dinner; because of this, he became the fastest in the universe.[1] He soon became a member of Frieza's elite mercenary platoon, the Ginyu Force: Burter is the self-proclaimed "Azure Typhoon" (or "Blue Hurricane", in the Dragon Ball manga and video games), and fancies himself as the fastest being in the universe.

Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Recoome's special powers originated during his childhood: Recoome practiced dance, which is how he got his agility and various battle poses.[1] Recoome was later recruited in the Ginyu Force.

Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Guldo's special powers originated during his childhood. He realized he had psychic powers as a child, and caused mischief like lifting up girls' skirts and stealing whatever toys he wanted.[3]
At some point Guldo became a part of the Galactic Frieza Army. Guldo was the last member to join the Ginyu Force, in his membership test he had to fight against Burter, Jeice, Recoome, and Ginyu to see if he was worthy to join. He fought alongside a partner (as new recruits were allowed one helper) and managed to prove his worth, thus being given membership

Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Jeice's special powers originated during his childhood: Jeice was a pitcher in the Galactic Little League, and it is there that he developed the Crusher Ball as his special technique.[2]

Like the other members of the Ginyu Force, Ginyu's special powers originated during his childhood. When Ginyu first learned of his Body Change ability, he swapped bodies with the richest kid in his class, which made him popular with girls but also stupid, and he soon realized that men should compete in terms of strength rather than money.[5] According to this, Ginyu's purple horned body is his original.[5]
none these people were formally trained in ki, they just got lucky powers or skills that they discovered early and then got recruited into the force because of them. these are FREEZA'S FINEST MEN. imagine the standards for his GRUNTS are. and especially since they all use scouters. every formally trained ki user can sense ki, they are using it, but they don't know what is didn't make the effort to learn. they're thugs who got good out of random happenstance. and unfortunately, random happenstance does not beat years of knowledge, training and discipline.

its not as if you've see any of their planets, and if there were more like them surely Freeza would have more than FIVE GUYS in his force? seems more like they are the few rare people who just somehow figures out how to do ki in a world where they don't know what it is. EDIT: and furthermore! every time the heroes power up, what do the freeza force members do? act surprised. as if they don't think that power levels can be RAISED or HIDDEN, like an earth fighter knows they can. as if power levels to them are set in stone in their eyes. and since people can just be born with arbitrarily high power levels out of nowhere without training well....its not impossible that Freeza's entire force is just made up of talented thugs who got born lucky and Freeza found them while traveling through space searching for said thugs to help conquer stuff, assuming all the power was set in stone and that he was a unique being who could hide it by transforming to be weaker. which given the "might makes right" philosophy that DB protagonists often use....isn't implausible.

as for the Yardrats, we don't see them or what they're capable of. for all we know, only a single old yardrat master knows instant transmission and teaches it to Goku simply because he needs someone to pass on the technique. which is a common martial arts trope.



At the end of the day, Dragon Ball is the story of exceptional people doing exceptional things. By nature, it shows a collection of the best and strongest people in the world/galaxy/multiverse. That doesn't mean that there aren't any other people with similar (albeit lesser) abilities in the world, just that they aren't the focus of the story.

In the sense that its about the people who can wield ki at all, yes. I mean from what Zamasu implies in his reactions to Goku, he is surprised that mortals are wielding ki in the first place. his universe, universe 10, is filled with fighters who don't even fire a single ki blast. that doesn't really point mortals wielding ki being a common thing in the least.

[Peelee]

Even Mister Satan probably utilizes a small amount of ki in his martial arts, or he wouldn't have been able to win the one World Martial Arts Tournament that the main characters didn't go to.

[citation needed]

[Cikomyr]

[citation needed]

Seconded

We are talking about external manifestation of Ki, not merely the standard internalized Ki used by martial artists.

[Peelee]

Actually, going by how we can see Great Saiyaman Gohan training Videl, and knowing that Videl was already extensively trained by Hercule himself, we can see that she has no idea of the concept of ki or how to use it until Gohan shows her. The logical implication is that Hercule can absolutely not use ki.

You can take my Funimation'd names from my cold dead hands!

[GrayDeath]

Or simply that he, and people similar to him, have no active understanding of Ki, and just use it instinctually to a certain Level to strengthen themselves.

SO yeah, in my opinion active and especially external Ki use is VERY rare. Using miniscule to small amounts purtel on reflex, not so much.

[Peelee]

Or simply that he, and people similar to him, have no active understanding of Ki, and just use it instinctually to a certain Level to strengthen themselves.

SO yeah, in my opinion active and especially external Ki use is VERY rare. Using miniscule to small amounts purtel on reflex, not so much.

But there's no evidence that unconscious, reflexive use of miniscule amounts of ki exists in Hercule (or anyone else for that matter). It's like saying that Hercule is one-64th Saiyan, and that's why he was the champion and so strong. Sure, it's theoretically possible, but there's no indication that it's true, just like there's no indication that he uses miniscule amounts of ki reflexively.

[KillianHawkeye]

We are talking about external manifestation of Ki, not merely the standard internalized Ki used by martial artists.

When did we limit it only external blasty uses of ki? I'm talking about ki in general.


Or simply that he, and people similar to him, have no active understanding of Ki, and just use it instinctually to a certain Level to strengthen themselves.

SO yeah, in my opinion active and especially external Ki use is VERY rare. Using miniscule to small amounts purtel on reflex, not so much.

^ Yeah, this.

Ki is like a spiritual/life energy. Literally everyone has it, albeit in small amounts. It's kind of like The Force in that way. Very few people learn to manipulate it, but any extraordinary feats that people accomplish are in part because of ki except for those that are explicitly magical (and those are even a lot more rare).


But there's no evidence that unconscious, reflexive use of miniscule amounts of ki exists in Hercule (or anyone else for that matter). It's like saying that Hercule is one-64th Saiyan, and that's why he was the champion and so strong. Sure, it's theoretically possible, but there's no indication that it's true, just like there's no indication that he uses miniscule amounts of ki reflexively.

I said he "probably" did. Satan is only weak in comparison to the main cast. He still won a World Martial Arts Tournament that the super exceptional people were too busy to go to.



Also, Lord Raziere? You don't get to post a bunch of non-canon quotes about each individual member of the Ginyu Force's childhoods in the same post that you tell me that the fish people from the Bardock Special aren't canon.

[Cikomyr]

When did we limit it only external blasty uses of ki? I'm talking about ki in general.



Because one require actual knowledge and willing intent in the manifestation of the Ki, the other is merely a spontaneous consequence of having harmonized your physical and spiritual self.

I don't have any issue believing Satan was probably using unconsciously Ki, as I do accept he was probably one of the top 10 fighting humans in existence. (After Krilin, Tsenshinshen, Chaozu, Tao Pai Pai, The Turtle Master and the Crane Master. It's never established how strong the later three are compared to peak Satan).

Edit Goddamnit I forgot Yamcha. He was probably between Tsenshinen and Chaozu

[Peelee]

I said he "probably" did. Satan is only weak in comparison to the main cast. He still won a World Martial Arts Tournament that the super exceptional people were too busy to go to.

... And? Someone is going to win that tournament. If, for whatever reason, only a bunch of 100lb 20-year-old IT nerds fought it that tournament, would that mean the winner probably was able to use ki? "He, as a regular human, won a tournament over other regular humans" has no more bearing on him using ki than that Bulma's father was able to subconsciously use ki because he invented tons of things. It's an arbitrary standard with zero evidence.

[Lord Raziere]

Also, Lord Raziere? You don't get to post a bunch of non-canon quotes about each individual member of the Ginyu Force's childhoods in the same post that you tell me that the fish people from the Bardock Special aren't canon.

So they are, oh well I was wrong, boohoo. but y'know, Kanassans are still not canon dude. I love the Bardock Special, its better than the canon Bardock, but.....sorry its just not canon.

the fact remains that given the way Ki works, Freeza doesn't need a huge army and he doesn't really have one. To keep a planet in line he just needs one guy to be there to keep the threat of total annihiliation hanging over their heads through planet-busting power, and only needs to send one or two guys to commit a planetary genocide. which is incredibly efficient for him given that any civilization at even Earth's level would be populated in the billions. ki users don't need to be common, not even on a universe scale, because you just need one person out of billions to be able to use it at all to satisfy "exceptional". someone as weak as raditz is exceptional because he legit outpowers everything on Earth at the time when we had an entire series setting them up to be the strongest people on Earth bar none.

this isn't the modern shonen universe where the difference is "has magic powers but is a mook because the other guy has a special hax variant" its the first universe where the difference is "I have these powers at all when most don't.".

ki is what is called in the writing business, soft magic. its development depends more on emotions, character development and the characters themselves than the rules of the world. getting angry causes power ups? an attack that somehow becomes holy just because it gathers energy from energy donated from everyone? hallmarks of soft magic. a lot of what it does is just help tell the story than be used in a logical manner. soft magic thus tends to not be systemized because it can't. its principles are largely unexplained in story.

but here is what Toriyama has said:

Composition
According to Akira Toriyama, ki is made up of three parts:

Genki (元気 lit. "Vigor")
Yūki (勇気 lit. "Courage")
Shōki (正気 lit. "Mind")
The first and third of these are obvious referrals to strength of mind and body. Yuki however refers to courage, which is a far less measurable trait than the other two. it suggests that cowards are inherently weaker in ki usage than people who are brave as they don't have enough courage to form it well, which explains partly why Yamcha and Krillin's strength doesn't really keep up. and suggests that most people simply are less proficient wielding ki because they're normal people. most normal people simply aren't courageous enough to fight dangerous ki battles and just want to live stable happy lives. so its entirely possible that most are not courageous enough to wield ki or learn to how, and that a ki-user can sense if someone has enough courage to be fit to be taught at all. this is consistent with transformations unlocked through anger or trauma, cowards like Babidi being easily defeated, Gohan's power spiking up and down constantly when he was younger and so on.

and if Ginyu's backstory is open- well, if he just constantly switch to stronger bodies every time well, why train? just switch with whoever has a higher PL than you. and an organization like the Freeza Force doesn't really need constant training- its all about bullying or killing weaker people for money, and thus don't really need to reach their full potential when what they have does just fine for what they do. if even Raditz can confidently wipe out a planet without opposition, that does not point to ki use being common or known. and why would ki-users want to make it more common? each one is a literal god who wipe out an entire civilization by a normal man's measure, we have at least one person WEAKER than Raditz being called GOD as in, the GOD of all the world, and Raditz is stronger than that. a bully doesn't want to spread that around, they want to keep that to themselves so everyone bows down to the man in charge forever.

[Benoojian]

Chaotic Neutral, even when he's Good(Or Lawful) it's out of selfish reasons. He has simply become better at finding reasons to be Good rather than Evil. Probably from Goku's influence.

[Lemmy]

We see Mr.Satan perform some outright super-human feats... Including dodging bullets and easily defeating an opponent who is visibly much more muscular than him... So I think it's far more likely that he uses ki without knowing it.

It's just special ki techniques that are rare (shooting beams, flying, teleport, etc). General physical enhancement seems to be practiced by most, if not all, serious martial artists (albeit unkowingly).

Hell! Even the weakest Freeza soldiers are capable of flight! You know those guys that use laser guns instead of ki blasts? They are shown flying without aid all the time!

Also: Vegeta could definitely destroy Earth with that Galick Gun attack... Just not as non-challantly as Freeza could.

Honestly most "He's an unreliable narrator! We don't know if that's actually true!" arguments are silly when it comes to DBZ. Toriyama just isn't that subtle a writer. That and the absurd power-scaling of the series (not to mention the usual "writers have no sense of scale and aren't very good at math" issue) makes character statements such as "he can destroy the solar system!" most likely true.

It's probably more accurate to take that kind of statement at face value than to use Death Battle's pseudo-scientific skepticism.

- - -

On Vegeta:

He starts of as either CE or NE... At some point during the Cell saga, he starts slowly progressing towards TN. At the start of Majin Buu saga he's so deeply TN / NG that he has an identity crisis when he realizes it and falls back into Evil for a moment.

[deuterio12]

We see Mr.Satan perform some outright super-human feats... Including dodging bullets and easily defeating an opponent who is visibly much more muscular than him... So I think it's far more likely that he uses ki without knowing it.

It's just special ki techniques that are rare (shooting beams, flying, teleport, etc). General physical enhancement seems to be practiced by most, if not all, serious martial artists (albeit unkowingly).

Don't forget that Mr. Satan took a direct hit from perfect Cell, was sent crashing against a stone pillar and walked away with just a few light bruises when a normal human would've been reduced to a bunch of bloodied broken chunks.



Hell! Even the weakest Freeza soldiers are capable of flight! You know those guys that use laser guns instead of ki blasts? They are shown flying without aid all the time!

To be fair Freeza's army lasers are a threat to Goku even in the more recent series while he always laughed at mook ki blasts (plus even the most recent BBEG has to dodge laser guns but shrugging off Goku's blasting), so they're simply using the stronger versions.

[Lord Raziere]

Honestly most "He's an unreliable narrator! We don't know if that's actually true!" arguments are silly when it comes to DBZ. Toriyama just isn't that subtle a writer. That and the absurd power-scaling of the series (not to mention the usual "writers have no sense of scale and aren't very good at math" issue) makes character statements such as "he can destroy the solar system!" most likely true.

It's probably more accurate to take that kind of statement at face value than to use Death Battle's pseudo-scientific skepticism.


oh I fully agree with this.

but things still point to Ki being incredibly rare. just like how magic is rare, or how Majin buu is the only one of his kind, or how Freeza is actually a mutant, or how Krillin doesn't have a nose, or androids randomly invented by a guy in a cave. Dragonball is just one of those worlds that are closer to a superhero universe with a bunch of diverse rare power sources thrown into a mixer, than a more consistent fantasy universe like Naruto or something.

[Cikomyr]

Don't forget that Mr. Satan took a direct hit from perfect Cell, was sent crashing against a stone pillar and walked away with just a few light bruises when a normal human would've been reduced to a bunch of bloodied broken chunks.



To be fair Freeza's army lasers are a threat to Goku even in the more recent series while he always laughed at mook ki blasts (plus even the most recent BBEG has to dodge laser guns but shrugging off Goku's blasting), so they're simply using the stronger versions.

Maybe the laser guns are some sort of Ki-focusing and intensifying tools, a la Piccolo's beam, or Krilin's cutting disks?

[Peelee]

We see Mr.Satan perform some outright super-human feats... Including dodging bullets and easily defeating an opponent who is visibly much more muscular than him... So I think it's far more likely that he uses ki without knowing it.


Don't forget that Mr. Satan took a direct hit from perfect Cell, was sent crashing against a stone pillar and walked away with just a few light bruises when a normal human would've been reduced to a bunch of bloodied broken chunks.
Fair points.


Hell! Even the weakest Freeza soldiers are capable of flight! You know those guys that use laser guns instead of ki blasts? They are shown flying without aid all the time!



To be fair Freeza's army lasers are a threat to Goku even in the more recent series while he always laughed at mook ki blasts (plus even the most recent BBEG has to dodge laser guns but shrugging off Goku's blasting), so they're simply using the stronger versions.

Also, Videl was able to fly but unable to shoot ki blasts, so flight seems to be much easier.

[deuterio12]

Also, Videl was able to fly but unable to shoot ki blasts, so flight seems to be much easier.

On the contrary, Videl (https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Videl#Techniques) actually had to learn how to do ki balls of energy before she could learn ki flight, ki master Gohan himself confirms it. She just never uses ki blasting in combat because reasons (and in some games she does get nuking).

If anything, all the Z fighters learned blasting before flight, and master "shoot the moon" Roshi could never figure out the flying bit.

[Peelee]

On the contrary, Videl (https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Videl#Techniques) actually had to learn how to do ki balls of energy before she could learn ki flight, ki master Gohan himself confirms it. She just never uses ki blasting in combat because reasons (and in some games she does get nuking).

Well dang, I forgot about that. Though her ki blasts were poor and her flight was good, which is odd.

What this means is I should clearly re-watch the best parts of DBZ again. Which is to say, the Great Saiyaman Saga!

[Lemmy]

To be fair Freeza's army lasers are a threat to Goku even in the more recent series while he always laughed at mook ki blasts (plus even the most recent BBEG has to dodge laser guns but shrugging off Goku's blasting), so they're simply using the stronger versions.Ignoring the fact that that scene was just a really crappy way of showing Goku's overconfidence and complety inconsistent with everything from DBZ... It's implied that Sorbet's laser was some sort od one-shot special weapon, rather than the usual laser gun every Freeza grunt uses.


On the contrary, Videl (https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Videl#Techniques) actually had to learn how to do ki balls of energy before she could learn ki flight, ki master Gohan himself confirms it. She just never uses ki blasting in combat because reasons (and in some games she does get nuking).
Probably because she doesn't have much of it... There is no point in shooting laser beams if they deal little to no damage and using them once or twice leaves you exhausted (probably the same reasons Freeza soldiers use guns).

Also... She doesn't fight much, so Toriyama probably forgot about it.

[Peelee]

complety inconsistent with everything from DBZ

Imean, to be fair here, vast amounts of DBZ are completely inconsistent with everything from Dragon Ball.

Also, to be fair, I think it should be clear at this point that my enjoyment in the Dragonball franchise is highest at the most ridiculous parts.

[Asmotherion]

Starting:
Chaotic Evil

Cell Saga:
Chaotic Neutral bordering on evil

Buu Saga:
Chaotic Evil/chaotic neutral

Super:
Chaotic Good slowly turning to Lawful Good by the end of the Tournament of Power.

that would explain why he is always slightly behind Goku in terms of power. He gets an exp. penalty for changing alignment. :smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

that would explain why he is always slightly behind Goku in terms of power. He gets an exp. penalty for changing alignment. :smallbiggrin:

This is the new canon explanation.

I actually don't think ToP makes him lawful. He rejects the whole concept, hates the divine hierarchy and seeks to subvert the spoke intent of the tournament.

[deuterio12]

Ignoring the fact that that scene was just a really crappy way of showing Goku's overconfidence and complety inconsistent with everything from DBZ... It's implied that Sorbet's laser was some sort od one-shot special weapon, rather than the usual laser gun every Freeza grunt uses.

I recall that the implication that it was a perfectly normal laser gun. It wouldn't be Goku being overconfident if it was some one-off super prototype much stronger than anything before. And again even the latest BBEG has to dodge laser guns so it's not an isolated event.

Plus consider that Freeza's army is crazy advanced in terms of technology, being able to mass-produce FTL ships that are the same size as the pilot. So it's actually expected that their mass-produced laser guns would pack a real punch.



Probably because she doesn't have much of it... There is no point in shooting laser beams if they deal little to no damage and using them once or twice leaves you exhausted (probably the same reasons Freeza soldiers use guns).

Also... She doesn't fight much, so Toriyama probably forgot about it.

The way I see it, she just likes it close and personal. Plus she sees herself as a heroine of justice and ki blasts have a significantly higher risk of collateral damage so she'll rather just rely on punches and kicks than start ki blasting and end up razing the block.

[Lemmy]

I recall that the implication that it was a perfectly normal laser gun. It wouldn't be Goku being overconfident if it was some one-off super prototype much stronger than anything before. And again even the latest BBEG has to dodge laser guns so it's not an isolated event.I *think* I remember it being implied to be something of a trump card, although I suppose it could be simply because it was a concealed weapon.


The way I see it, she just likes it close and personal. Plus she sees herself as a heroine of justice and ki blasts have a significantly higher risk of collateral damage so she'll rather just rely on punches and kicks than start ki blasting and end up razing the block.Well... Gohan doesn't seem to have taught her the Kamehameha, Masenko or anything like that, so she's limited to generic ki blasts, which are notoriously ineffective against anything that isn't much weaker than the user... And no DBZ villain is weaker than Videl.

EDIT: You know... Since they were throwing established power out of the window anyway, it'd have been cool if instead of #17, we got Videl using Kaioken in the tournament of power. :smallbiggrin:

[Devonix]

I *think* I remember it being implied to be something of a trump card, although I suppose it could be simply because it was a concealed weapon.

Well... Gohan doesn't seem to have taught her the Kamehameha, Masenko or anything like that, so she's limited to generic ki blasts, which are notoriously ineffective against anything that isn't much weaker than the user... And no DBZ villain is weaker than Videl.

EDIT: You know... Since they were throwing established power out of the window anyway, it'd have been cool if instead of #17, we got Videl using Kaioken in the tournament of power. :smallbiggrin:

Nope it was just a normal blaster. It's directly tied into things Whis said earlier in the film with him telling Goku that he relaxes too much and it leaves him vulnerable in fights. It's basically a canon version of the Krillin Rock.

[Lord Raziere]

Nope it was just a normal blaster. It's directly tied into things Whis said earlier in the film with him telling Goku that he relaxes too much and it leaves him vulnerable in fights. It's basically a canon version of the Krillin Rock.

Eeeeeeeh.

Goku isn't actually overconfident. thats a gross misinterpretation of the character the Super pushed and doesn't really fit him. He is NAIVE yes, but not overconfident. overconfidence is more Vegeta's thing.

[Devonix]

Eeeeeeeh.

Goku isn't actually overconfident. thats a gross misinterpretation of the character the Super pushed and doesn't really fit him. He is NAIVE yes, but not overconfident. overconfidence is more Vegeta's thing.

Not overconfident. Relaxed. Goku is too busy having fun in a lot of fights.

[Lord Raziere]

Not overconfident. Relaxed. Goku is too busy having fun in a lot of fights.

Yeah.....thats checks out. That applies to things other than Super.

[Lemmy]

Not overconfident. Relaxed. Goku is too busy having fun in a lot of fights.Yeah... Nut while he enjoys fights, he never really relaxes the way Whis accuses him of doing.

When Freeza tries to "backstab" him in Namek, Goku immediately turns super-saiyan and blasts him. When he could barely move, he still recognized Ginyu's attack and had the presence of mind to throw a frog in the way. He's the one who keeps telling Gohan to finish Cell too.

Hell! This is the man who trains to stay super-saiyan while sleeping!

The only scenes where Goku acts overly relaxed are comic relief scenes, such as when Krillin throws a rock at him. Other than that, despite his naivete and mercy, he's generally shown to be quite alert.

DBS is just way too inconsistent with characterization (and setting... and pretty much everything).

[Anteros]

Well, Super is canon so it doesn't really matter if we agree that the interpretation makes sense. It's explicitly true.

[Lemmy]

Well, Super is canon so it doesn't really matter if we agree that the interpretation makes sense. It's explicitly true.No one said it isn't.

[Yael]

No one said it isn't.

Sadly. :smallfrown:

[Tvtyrant]

Sadly. :smallfrown:

Super's the best thing since Namek, why would it be sad?

[Lord Raziere]

Super's the best thing since Namek, why would it be sad?

Well yeah, it is the best thing since Namek.

but like all Dragonball stuff particularly Z onwards, it has its fault lines. the Super movies are great, shame about their anime adaptions animation being garbage and being too long and uh, honestly Battle of Gods is better than Resurrection of F, because the latter has no tension. Champa saga was good, though we could've done without Buu falling asleep. Future Trunks Saga was awesome up until Zeno showed up. Tournament of Power was good quality but we still could've done without Buu falling asleep again as a fakeout and Jiren could've been done better.

its those singular moments that are most often contentious, because I agree with you, but that doesn't mean Namek was flawless. Insert old "Freeza 5 minutes" and "we're still on namek" memes here, despite the glorious awesome that was the first super saiyan transformation. the flaws are singular but they flawed in such ways that stick out, and we don't have the nostalgia and hindsight humor to dull them for us.

Super is the best thing since Namek, its just the truth of that statement is not purely positive since I know that people used to be more critical of Z before Super came along and made it look better by relative comparison. I think its perfectly reasonable for any fan to admit that Dragonball has a lot of writing problems that could use fixing when you look back upon it even if we love it. heck the first saga ever written for DB didn't even sell that well, it was the first tournament saga and the introduction of Krillin that saved the manga and allowed it find its footing.

I dunno, Dragonball has its highs and lows. it can have its highs when something like super saiyan or ultra instinct is busted out, but it can be low when something stupid happens.

[Lemmy]

Pfff... Super isn't even the best thing since the end of the Majin Buu saga.

[Ramza00]

Is Super more Perfect than Cell?

[Lord Raziere]

Is Super more Perfect than Cell?

Neither is as perfect as Dragonball Evolution, I don't know how the rest of the franchise gets Bulma Enchanto's name wrong

[KillianHawkeye]

The first and third of these are obvious referrals to strength of mind and body. Yuki however refers to courage, which is a far less measurable trait than the other two. it suggests that cowards are inherently weaker in ki usage than people who are brave as they don't have enough courage to form it well, which explains partly why Yamcha and Krillin's strength doesn't really keep up. and suggests that most people simply are less proficient wielding ki because they're normal people. most normal people simply aren't courageous enough to fight dangerous ki battles and just want to live stable happy lives. so its entirely possible that most are not courageous enough to wield ki or learn to how, and that a ki-user can sense if someone has enough courage to be fit to be taught at all. this is consistent with transformations unlocked through anger or trauma, cowards like Babidi being easily defeated, Gohan's power spiking up and down constantly when he was younger and so on.

I've actually never heard this bit about courage before, but it's really quite interesting and makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing!

[Tvtyrant]

Pfff... Super isn't even the best thing since the end of the Majin Buu saga.

I think you have some rose colored lenses there. The Cell and Buu sagas were colossal messes, switching villains constantly and having back and forth transformation based curb stomps. In the cell saga the heroes barely level training for 3 years then become between 10 and 25 times stronger in the time of the arc itself. The Buu saga is worse, simply inventing random power ups where needed. Fusion, mystic Gohan, SSIII, Buus many forms.

Heck the final fight of the Buu saga they could have just wished Gohan back and he could have killed kid Buu instead of the spirit bomb/wishing back Gokus SSIII power.

[Lemmy]

I think you have some rose colored lenses there.Ah... And your view is purely objective truth, right?


The Cell and Buu sagas were colossal messes, switching villains constantly and having back and forth transformation based curb stomps. In the cell saga the heroes barely level training for 3 years then become between 10 and 25 times stronger in the time of the arc itself. The Buu saga is worse, simply inventing random power ups where needed. Fusion, mystic Gohan, SSIII, Buus many forms.

Heck the final fight of the Buu saga they could have just wished Gohan back and he could have killed kid Buu instead of the spirit bomb/wishing back Gokus SSIII power.
The Cell saga still turned out to be awesome! With some of the best moments in the whole franchise.

The Buu saga is a mess... Probably the worst saga in DB (with the possible exception of Return of F and filler sagas), but it had good things (namely: fat Majin Buu and Mr.Satan), plus a few cool moments (Vegeta had a good conclusion for his character arc, which DBS all but completely undoes). Toriyama really should have limited it to fat Buu, Super Buu (or whatever is called the first muscular buu) and kid buu. And either made it ana ctual DB saga from the beginning, with Gohan as the protagonist, or just kept Goku around, instead trying to make it an slice of life anime at first, until fans complained too much.

And seriously... If you want to bring "power level progression and consistency" into it, DBS isn't looking good.

Anything in DBZ is still more consistent than "Freeza returns. Again. Gets a trillion times more powerful in four months. Goku almost dies to an attack that wouldn't have hurt even Raditz.", Krillin is hurt by bullets, when such a thing wasn't effective even in the original DB series. Android #17 got impossibly strong by... Fighting normal human poachers? Muten Roshi, who retired all the way back in the original DB suddenly is stronger than Tien an can keep up with the other characters".

And then, there's the ending of the Goku Black saga, which is possibly the most anti-climatic ending to any saga in all of the Dragon Ball franchise. And let's not even talk about the animation quality... And the "you turn Super-saiyan by focusing on the itch in your back".

DBS has its moments, but it still only becomes a good show in the Tournament of Power arc... And even that one is only OK for the most part... And has the world's most boring antagonist.

[KillianHawkeye]

You guys have to remember that Akira Toriyama worked for Shonen Jump magazine and there was a crap ton of executive meddling going on during the Cell and Buu sagas of the manga. The reason that Vegeta helped Cell achieve his perfect form was literally because somebody thought that Cell's second form looked dumb and they forced Toriyama to speed things along to his final form.

And Toriyama wanted to end the series after Freeza, and again after Cell, but the magazine kept asking for him to keep going.

[Tvtyrant]

Ah... And your view is purely objective truth, right?


The Cell saga still turned out to be awesome! With some of the best moments in the whole franchise.

The Buu saga is a mess... Probably the worst saga in DB (with the possible exception of Return of F and filler sagas), but it had good things (namely: fat Majin Buu and Mr.Satan), plus a few cool moments (Vegeta had a good conclusion for his character arc, which DBS all but completely undoes). Toriyama really should have limited it to fat Buu, Super Buu (or whatever is called the first muscular buu) and kid buu. And either made it ana ctual DB saga from the beginning, with Gohan as the protagonist, or just kept Goku around, instead trying to make it an slice of life anime at first, until fans complained too much.

And seriously... If you want to bring "power level progression and consistency" into it, DBS isn't looking good.

Anything in DBZ is still more consistent than "Freeza returns. Again. Gets a trillion times more powerful in four months. Goku almost dies to an attack that wouldn't have hurt even Raditz.", Krillin is hurt by bullets, when such a thing wasn't effective even in the original DB series. Android #17 got impossibly strong by... Fighting normal human poachers? Muten Roshi, who retired all the way back in the original DB suddenly is stronger than Tien an can keep up with the other characters".

And then, there's the ending of the Goku Black saga, which is possibly the most anti-climatic ending to any saga in all of the Dragon Ball franchise. And let's not even talk about the animation quality... And the "you turn Super-saiyan by focusing on the itch in your back".

DBS has its moments, but it still only becomes a good show in the Tournament of Power arc... And even that one is only OK for the most part... And has the world's most boring antagonist.

I usually find it so :P

It had good character arcs. The plot is godawful and the fights are largely terrible. In the whole arc you get Goku Vs. Cell, Cell Vs Gohan and 16 vs. bug cell. Outside that it is one sided smack downs that switch back and forth, and the piccolo vs. 17 fight (which everyone either loves of hates.)

It is possible we watch this for different reasons. I loved the Zamasu arc, IMO its the best super arc. ToP had all sorts of problems, which is common with all tournament arcs. DB is about overcoming limits, and in Super they usually get one upgrade per arc. But in a tournament it has to happen in each fight, which becomes an issue really quickly. That aside, Vegeta and Goku has great fights in that arc, the best one being Vegeta vs. Top.

[Lemmy]

It had good character arcs. The plot is godawful and the fights are largely terrible. In the whole arc you get Goku Vs. Cell, Cell Vs Gohan and 16 vs. bug cell. Outside that it is one sided smack downs that switch back and forth, and the piccolo vs. 17 fight (which everyone either loves of hates.)
That's DB in a nutshell... Mediocre to forgettable plot, mostly one-sided smackdowns leading to one (or maybe a few) somewhat balanced fights (by DBZ standards).


It is possible we watch this for different reasons. I loved the Zamasu arc, IMO its the best super arc. ToP had all sorts of problems, which is common with all tournament arcs. DB is about overcoming limits, and in Super they usually get one upgrade per arc. But in a tournament it has to happen in each fight, which becomes an issue really quickly. That aside, Vegeta and Goku has great fights in that arc, the best one being Vegeta vs. Top.The whole Zamasu/Goku Black saga was pretty good... Until that horrible ending ruins it.

It was the first time I was excited about DBS. (despite it also having dumb, repetitive fights)... Then it remembers it's DBS and craps on the first good thing it had going with the series most anticlimactic ending.

Gods... I hate the conclusion of that arc... :smallsigh:

The ToP is just dumb fun with some really cool scenes here and there.

DBS also takes one of the worst problems with DB and makes it even worse: the criminal underuse of its secondary characters. The ToP at least gives some time under the spotlight to a few more characters... Even if it isn't always great (poor Krillin and Tien).

[Rodin]

You guys have to remember that Akira Toriyama worked for Shonen Jump magazine and there was a crap ton of executive meddling going on during the Cell and Buu sagas of the manga. The reason that Vegeta helped Cell achieve his perfect form was literally because somebody thought that Cell's second form looked dumb and they forced Toriyama to speed things along to his final form.

And Toriyama wanted to end the series after Freeza, and again after Cell, but the magazine kept asking for him to keep going.

Wasn't it even worse than that?

I think I remember reading that ALL the villains in the Cell arc were not meant to exist other than androids 19 and 20. Android 20 being Dr. Gero was a retcon when Toriyama was told that an old man and a fat dude weren't good enough villains. Then Android 17 and Android 18 weren't cool enough, so he was forced to introduce Cell. Cell was too ugly, so Imperfect Cell was introduced..who was STILL too ugly and so Perfect Cell happened.

It's a miracle any sort of workable plot came out of it.