Martial Anti-Caster

[A Lax Caster]

I'm relatively new to 5e, and though I'm really liking what I'm seeing so far, I'm a little stumped on how I might build an AntiCaster that doesn't rely on magic themselves?

Sort of this bastion of Will and and dedication against the depradations of magic users. A "badass normal" who fights mages with skill at arms, dedication and his mind, if that makes sense?

I know that I'd like him to be mostly melee based, but I don't know if that's possible while also keeping him martial-powered and Effective? I know about the mageslayer feat and reflavouring abilities, but I'm really kind of hoping to keep it within the confines of the "Badass Normal" to use TvTropes language.

[NorthernPhoenix]

You can do a lot at higher levels, but for a very basic, low level setup, Barbarian with athletics expertise is a good pick. Realistically Grappling will quickly ruin any casters day unless they pacify you before you get your hands on, though some DMs might be sticklers about this.

Monk is great too, as Stunning Fist is devastating vs targets with usually terrible saves, and they have many ways to ensure they land it, and later, to protect themselves from spells. You might consider them semi-magical though.

[Misterwhisper]

You can do a lot at higher levels, but for a very basic, low level setup, Barbarian with athletics expertise is a good pick. Realistically Grappling will quickly ruin any casters day unless they pacify you before you get your hands on, though some DMs might be sticklers about this.

Monk is great too, as Stunning Fist is devastating vs targets with usually terrible saves, and they have many ways to ensure they land it, and later, to protect themselves from spells. You might consider them semi-magical though.

Grappling a caster does nothing to stop them from casting, attacking, or anything except using their movement.

Also, if you want to play an anti-caster that does not use spells themselves, just give it up, it doesn’t work.

5e pretty much took out all the dangers of being a caster and all the deadlyness of being a martial.

Major loses of AoO and crits not really mattering much unless you are a rogue kind of put an end to that.

[CheddarChampion]

Oath of the Ancients Paladin and Monster Slayer Ranger are great for this role, but they don't fulfill the "No magic at all" thing you're going for.

Rogue:
Big damage from Sneak Attack and disadvantage on the concentration saving throws can do pretty good for ending concentration.
Evasion and Slippery Mind are good resistance buffs.
Assassin with the Alert feat that always tries to get the drop on a caster (though good luck doing it twice - it's very anticlimactic to kill the big bad evil wizard in one hit).
Swashbuckler Aaracockra with Mage Slayer (and Mobile and Sentinel) can lay the hurt on a caster. Good at pursuing/being mobile, potentially doubling up on sneak attack... quite good.
The Inquisitive can sneak attack consistently from a distance - mark the caster then use hit and hide tactics to avoid the brunt of magical effects. They can't cast on what they can't see after all.

Barbarian:
GWM + Reckless attack is good to lay on the damage
Shield Master + Danger Sense is good for anti-blasters.
Zealot Barbarian w/ Resilient (Wisdom) is good for anti-saving throws.
Bear Totem is good for anti-blasters.

Fighter:
Elven Accuracy Samurai with a longbow and sharpshooter can lay on the damage quickly. Nova the caster before they get a chance?
Also proficiency in Wisdom saves.
Bonus Action: Fighting Spirit - get advantage on attacks. Boost it to roll 3 dice and take the highest from Elven Accuracy. Attack with a further +2 to hit from archery style and then apply the -5/+10 for sharpshooter. Use Action Surge on the same round.
At level 6 you can get double advantage, +4 to hit, 1d8+14 damage, four attacks. At level 11 you get six attacks, double advantage, +6 to hit, 1d8+15 damage per hit.
Crossbow Master can boost each hit by 1 damage, but Lucky is probably better overall for the whiffed attacks and rerolls on saving throws.

[Tanarii]

Magic items and lots of damage.

[Phhase]

Grappling a caster does nothing to stop them from casting, attacking, or anything except using their movement.


Look, I know that's RAW, but, like...it feels so wrong.

It's Grappling.

Not "I place my arm reassuringly around his shoulders."

Besides. RAW says that the caster must have free use of at least one hand to enact a somatic component. I think a hand on each arm easily qualifies as making your range of movement less than "free".

Personally, I'd force a Concentration check to cast while grappled, contested by the opponent's Athletics roll. And no way in hell can you cast while restrained (Without Subtle Spell or a Verbal spell, anyway).


"I cast a Spell!" Sure, kiddo.
https://www.bjjee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/tonon.jpg


DM rulings and RAI aside, I recommend grabbing oil or alchemist's fire. If you can set someone on fire, then they'll have to concentrate to cast (Probably? It's at least an easy way to break concentration). Anything that causes persistent, recurring damage, is the point.

The new Class Variants added a Battle Master Maneuver called Restraining Strike, which could be really useful. Getting a poison that blinds could also really impair a caster. Iron Bands of Bilarro is pretty much a sure bet, unless the caster is also ripped somehow. Creating thick smoke might cause suffocation, worth a try.

[nickl_2000]

I can’t believe that no one has mentioned monks. They are proficient in all saving throws, get evasion, can outrun pretty much anything, move early in initiative order usually, can stop frightened or charmed on themselves, can hide and stealth, and can stun a caster into oblivion.

There is literally no better mage hunter in 5e than a monk. I would argue that way of the shadow is best with darkness, silence, and pass without a trace available to.

[Tanarii]

Look, I know that's RAW, but, like...it feels so wrong.

It's Grappling.Its Grab. They just named it wrong.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Grappling a caster does nothing to stop them from casting, attacking, or anything except using their movement.

Also, if you want to play an anti-caster that does not use spells themselves, just give it up, it doesn’t work.

5e pretty much took out all the dangers of being a caster and all the deadlyness of being a martial.

Major loses of AoO and crits not really mattering much unless you are a rogue kind of put an end to that.

You noticed my addendum "Certain DMs might be sticklers about this!" Great! In the White Room world of RAW only, you might be right. But what about RAI?

The thing is, anyone who's grappled in real life knows that you can control someones arms and/or mouth really easily if they're a bit worse than you, and without fail if you're twice they're weight and have years of experience vs literally none. So in the spirit of 5Es "player declares action, DM decides check", i'd be pretty disappointed if my 300lb grappling expert Barbarian couldn't roll Athletics to control a wizards hands or cover their mouth in a grapple just because it's not on an exclusive list in the book. My fantasy character being only as good as the guy at the Gym is one thing, but being way, way worse is quite another.

[Misterwhisper]

Look, I know that's RAW, but, like...it feels so wrong.

It's Grappling.

Not "I place my arm reassuringly around his shoulders."

Besides. RAW says that the caster must have free use of at least one hand to enact a somatic component. I think a hand on each arm easily qualifies as making your range of movement less than "free".

Personally, I'd force a Concentration check to cast while grappled, contested by the opponent's Athletics roll. And no way in hell can you cast while restrained (Without Subtle Spell or a Verbal spell, anyway).


"I cast a Spell!" Sure, kiddo.
https://www.bjjee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/tonon.jpg


DM rulings and RAI aside, I recommend grabbing oil or alchemist's fire. If you can set someone on fire, then they'll have to concentrate to cast (Probably? It's at least an easy way to break concentration). Anything that causes persistent, recurring damage, is the point.

The new Class Variants added a Battle Master Maneuver called Restraining Strike, which could be really useful. Getting a poison that blinds could also really impair a caster. Iron Bands of Bilarro is pretty much a sure bet, unless the caster is also ripped somehow. Creating thick smoke might cause suffocation, worth a try.

So the summary of your advice is, “hey, I know none of this works at all, but I think it should.”

[Tanarii]

So in the spirit of 5Es "player declares action, DM decides check", i'd be pretty disappointed if my 300lb grappling expert Barbarian couldn't roll Athletics to control a wizards hands or cover their mouth in a grapple just because it's not on an exclusive list in the book. My fantasy character being only as good as the guy at the Gym is one thing, but being way, way worse is quite another.
There's a feat for that.

[moonfly7]

I homebrewed a mage slayer class once, but I never finished it.
I do however, suggest aracokra to attack from above, and nets to incapacitate your foes, take the sharpshooter I think to get rid of range restrictions. Also, monk. Just monk. They can kick but, and open hand basically lets you be a terrifying melee.

[NorthernPhoenix]

There's a feat for that.

:sigh: Haha, don't remind me! Luckily, this is the 5E forum, not the 3E one.

[Theodoxus]

Its Grab. They just named it wrong.

WotC did EVERYTHING in their power to wipe away any vestiges of recall for 4th Ed...

Phhase is a simulationist playing a gamist system... it makes for a lot of head scratching and 'unfun' times around the table... I wonder if people like that complain that the Top Hat moves just as quickly as the Car when playing Monopoly...

[Misterwhisper]

There's a feat for that.

No, there isn’t.

[NorthernPhoenix]

No, there isn’t.

I assumed he was making a 3E joke. While WOTC doesn't always perfectly adhere, a basic idea of 5E is that you don't or shouldn't need a "feat" to let you do any basic action.

[TIPOT]

No, there isn’t.

Isn't that what grappler represents? Specialized wrestling training.

[Misterwhisper]

I assumed he was making a 3E joke. While WOTC doesn't always perfectly adhere, a basic idea of 5E is that you don't or shouldn't need a "feat" to let you do any basic action.

Grabbing someone to the point they can’t use their hands or talk is not a basic action.

Not even the restrained condition does that, which there is a feat for.

[Misterwhisper]

Isn't that what grappler represents? Specialized wrestling training.

Yes, and it doesn’t do that, it is just adding the restrained condition, but to you too.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Grabbing someone to the point they can’t use their hands or talk is not a basic action.

Not even the restrained condition does that, which there is a feat for.

Would you say doing something a 1 year BJJ bluebelt can do easily is beyond possible for a DnD martial of any level?

[Theodoxus]

Yes, and it doesn’t do that, it is just adding the restrained condition, but to you too.

Funny, given the picture for restrained is a dude caught in a spiders web, unable to move his arms... I guess he could still cast V only spells, but good luck wiggling anything more than his fingers, and forget material components!


Would you say doing something a 1 year BJJ bluebelt can do easily is beyond possible for a DnD martial of any level?

Yes, because there's no rules for it. Again D&D is a GAME, not a SIMULATION. You're free to mod it however you like, but RAW, the answer is yes.

[Misterwhisper]

Would you say doing something a 1 year BJJ bluebelt can do easily is beyond possible for a DnD martial of any level?

By the rules, yes.

Grappling does not:

Stop someone from talking
Stop them from taking actions
Stop them from using object interactions
Stop them from using magic activation items
Stop them from casting spells
Cause them to make concentration checks
Blind them
Silence them
Or disarm them

Grapple does:
Make their speed 0

That’s it.

If you have a feat you can add the restrained condition to them and yourself which:
Gives people advantage to attack the both of you
Cause both of you to have speed zero
Gives both of you disadvantage on attacks
Gives both of you disadvantage on dex saves.


What you want is some kind of free form bs where you get game mechanic benefits because, “well, it should”

[NorthernPhoenix]

Funny, given the picture for restrained is a dude caught in a spiders web, unable to move his arms... I guess he could still cast V only spells, but good luck wiggling anything more than his fingers, and forget material components!



Yes, because there's no rules for it. Again D&D is a GAME, not a SIMULATION. You're free to mod it however you like, but RAW, the answer is yes.

RAW is more than just spells and powers. The core of the game is the action and check system. By RAW, when i ask "can i XYZ" it's as much the DMs call as letting me swing on a vine, tie my shoes, or any other such thing. So the question should be "is this reasonable?" which is ultimately how the book suggests DMs decide, based on the Easy-Impossible DC chart.

[Misterwhisper]

RAW is more than just spells and powers. The core of the game is the action and check system. By RAW, when i ask "can i XYZ" it's as much the DMs call as letting me swing on a vine, tie my shoes, or any other such thing. So the question should be "is this reasonable?" which is ultimately how the book suggests DMs decide, based on the Easy-Impossible DC chart.

That is not even close to what the book says.

If you do not have an ability to do something you don’t get to do it anyway because you want a check for it.

Also you can’t do something that is more than what the rules already say for the situation.

The book says that a thrown dagger has a range of 60 feet, it does not matter that your barbarian is crazy strong and can throw things much further, it says 60 feet.

Anyone who has ever actually used spear can tell you that they can very easily be a more dex based weapon than strength, but the rules say it is not finesse so it doesn’t matter.


What you describe is, “I want these mechanical and numerical advantages because I can think up a reason to have it, despite it not being in the rules or in the rules that contradicts what I want.”

[Potato_Priest]

Lax Caster, which is more important: no magic, or melee?

While there are several good ways to build a good ranged character to fight casters (the range of a longbow far exceeds that of most spells), and several good ways to make a only somewhat magical character into a melee anti-caster (paladin has been mentioned repeatedly and is excellent), it's rather difficult to do both.

The only thing I could suggest that accomplishes both would be the following:

A rogue or monk with a good stealth skill, some sort of item that creates obscurement (if smoke bombs were a thing they'd be your bread and butter), and the skulker feat. That ought to allow you to close to melee without being blasted, since most spells require line of sight to target. Unfortunately, so do most of your party's spells, so this may tend not to work super well in a group.

[Theodoxus]

RAW is more than just spells and powers. The core of the game is the action and check system. By RAW, when i ask "can i XYZ" it's as much the DMs call as letting me swing on a vine, tie my shoes, or any other such thing. So the question should be "is this reasonable?" which is ultimately how the book suggests DMs decide, based on the Easy-Impossible DC chart.

You do know that the "R" in RAW means "Rules", right? and the "W" means "Written". You're literally wrong in your entire assertion. What you're talking about is the "rule of cool" which isn't RAW, because it's not written anywhere in the rules. And I addressed this, in the "you can mod it however you want."

[NorthernPhoenix]

That is not even close to what the book says.

If you do not have an ability to do something you don’t get to do it anyway because you want a check for it.

Also you can’t do something that is more than what the rules already say for the situation.

The book says that a thrown dagger has a range of 60 feet, it does not matter that your barbarian is crazy strong and can throw things much further, it says 60 feet.

Anyone who has ever actually used spear can tell you that they can very easily be a more dex based weapon than strength, but the rules say it is not finesse so it doesn’t matter.


What you describe is, “I want these mechanical and numerical advantages because I can think up a reason to have it, despite it not being in the rules or in the rules that contradicts what I want.”

Fair enough! I'll just be content with the fact that my IRL student self is more badass than a level 20 Barbarian!:biggrin: Maybe i should be fighting wizards instead!

[Phhase]

Jeepers creepers. I mean, mea culpa for using an advice blurb to vent about mechanical preferences a bit, but it seems this is a bit of a sore spot. My apologies to Lax Caster too, didn't mean to turn the thread hot =P.

All things considered, yeah, Anti-mage is a little screwy if you want to do it without magic of your own, especially since reactions (such as a readied action) happen after the triggering event (Except in specifically noted cases like Shield and Counterspell...).

As several other have said, Shadow Monk is pretty great. Depending on if you want to be highly resistant against magic as well, being a Gnome can give you advantage on several types of savings throws vs spells, which is always useful.

Depending on exactly how low-magic you want to be, having an Ioun Stone of Absorbtion can be very useful, as it lets you auto-negate any spell of 4th level or lower with a reaction, up to 20 spell levels total.

And yeah, some DMs may rule one way or another. Bring some of these things up! Can't hurt.


I homebrewed a mage slayer class once, but I never finished it.
I do however, suggest aracokra to attack from above, and nets to incapacitate your foes, take the sharpshooter I think to get rid of range restrictions. Also, monk. Just monk. They can kick but, and open hand basically lets you be a terrifying melee.

Unfortunately, nets only apply the restrained status, which has no conceivable effect on spellcasting whatsoever.

But yeah, in general, it is likely to be a real help against a squishy caster, they're not likely to have lots of strength to break out.


So the summary of your advice is, “hey, I know none of this works at all, but I think it should.”
Come now, I beg to differ.

Malice (Inhaled)

A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or become poisoned for 1 hour. The poisoned creature is blinded.

Blinded


A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s Attack rolls have disadvantage.




Phhase is a simulationist playing a gamist system... it makes for a lot of head scratching and 'unfun' times around the table... I wonder if people like that complain that the Top Hat moves just as quickly as the Car when playing Monopoly...

Don't use Monopoly.

Try this instead:



Phhase is a simulationist playing a gamist system... it makes for a lot of head scratching and 'unfun' times around the table... I wonder if people like that complain that you can't just beat the relevant information out of the other players using the weapons in CLUE...

The problem with the original is that Monopoly was literally created RAW to be unfun, and demonstrate that the rich get richer. It's ironic how much it caught on despite that.


That is not even close to what the book says.
What you describe is, “I want these mechanical and numerical advantages because I can think up a reason to have it, despite it not being in the rules or in the rules that contradicts what I want.”
If everyone agrees on it, and it applies equally to all relevant game entities (i.e., an orc grunt NPC with a spear can also use Dex instead of Str as well, if it wants), then it's called a house rule. They're usually sussed out in session 0, and having a few doesn't preclude the game being played from being 5th Edition Dungeons and Dragons. Although, house rules are admittedly a bit outside of current scope.

[Talionis]

From the old grapplers manual. I would suggest you can get Silence spells as a Shadow Monk.


”Build 2: The Mage Slayer (Bard/Fighter/Rogue)
Some players just hate Wizards. You don't know what it is about Wizards that you hate, but boy do you hate them. Probably those pointy hats or their scrawny arms. Whatever the reason, when it comes to massacring mages at all levels of the game, accept nothing less than the Mage Slayer grappler. This is an extremely narrow build that, although useful against a variety of enemy types and classes, is at its best against those pesky magic users. There are tons of ways to build an antimage grappler (Wizard with Antimagic Field is another route), but this build will be the most relevant at all levels of the game, and is most likely to give your DMs magic practitioners a serious head/neck/throat ache.

The build functions around the almighty Silence spell, a no-save-allowed way to stop most magic cold. Your main class is College of Lore Bard, which gets you access to an arsenal of mage-murdering spells and gives you the highest possible single grapple checks of any class. It is critical to have high single grapple checks as a Mage Slayer because that initial grapple in the area of Silence is the most important. Once they are stuck there, they just can't do anything. Setting up that Silence will require a few different combinations of features, actions, and spells. As wizards scale up their power, your combos will scale with them. But because each engagement is so resource intensive, the build is heavily dependent on rests in between engagements, That play style might not suit everyone, but for those who want to give mages (and your DM) nightmares, this is the build for you.

As a final note, I emphasize this again: the build really is a single target, mage killing optimization. It's narrow, it's a nightmare for wizards, and it's a bit...strange, as far as grapplers go...

Starting Race: Human
Although you can go Mountain Dwarf in this build, Human is a better option because of how feat intensive the build is, especially at early levels.

Ability Scores: Here's your 27 point buy array assuming shameless optimization choices.
Str: 15 (Human +1 - Show those wimpy Wizards how it's done)
Dex 13 (Required for the Rogue multiclass)
Con 10 (This is a single-target, glass-cannon build. We can't afford to max out HP at the expense of other stas)
Int 8 (Int saves just aren't all that common, and those you do have to worry about shouldn't even work in an area of Silence)
Wis 10 (Never dump this; Wisdom saves tend to govern fear, and you do not want to be frightened as a grappler)
Cha 15 (Human +1 - More Charisma means more Cutting Words attempts)

Fighter 1
Human level 1 feat: Tavern Brawler
As with many grappling builds, start in Fighter to get the Heavy Armor Proficiency without spending a Feat. We get Warcaster both to concentrate on our spells in the fight, and to cast spells while wielding. We are also going to get the Dueling fighting style, and Tavern Brawler so we can grapple after making an attack (we will need that attack eventually to cause damage to trigger Mage Slayer).
Fighter 1 / Bard 1
With Heavy Armor acquired, we go straight for our Bard features/spells at level 3.
Fighter 1 / Bard 2
Fighter 1 / Bard 3
Expertise? Check. Cutting Words? Check. Silence? Check. Enhance Ability? Check. You now have access to your most basic combo. Cast Enhance Ability on yourself before the fight. At the beginning of the fight, walk over to the target and grapple them with advantage. Next turn, cast Silence on the area. We will defnitely do better than that later, but it's only level 4.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4
Level 4 Feat: Mage Slayer
Here's our next piece of the combo. Starting at level 5, you will encounter more situations where enemies have preexisting concentration-based spells before you grapple them. Those often need to go away if you are to win the fight, and Mage Slayer is going to get that done.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 1
To break concentration, we need big damage rolls on a single attack at the start of the fight. Rogue is going to get that done. Level 1 gets you Sneak Attack; you already have Expertise from Bard..
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 2
Cunning Action normally rocks at this level, but you generally won't use it because of Tavern Brawler. We are really going into Rogue to get the next class feature.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Assassinate plus Mage Slayer plus surprise equals impossible concentration saves. Now that we have finished out the Mage Slayer feature tree, we can change our combo to really ruin a mage's day. For your pre-fight buff, you have two options from the Bard 2 spell list. You can either stick with Enhance Ability and use Stealth to approach a target, or you can use Invisibility. Either way, you just want to make sure your target is surprised. Walk up to them and stab them with your improvised weapon short sword; it shouldn't take too much DM convincing to improvise a short sword. The attack will automatically score a critical hit for 6d6+5 damage (2d6 short sword, 4d6 sneak attack, 3 strength, 2 dueling). That assumes no magical buffs that add damage die, and you are already at an expected DC 13 Concentration save that they must make with disadvantage. Then grapple them and hold them in place until next turn when you can Silence.
Fighter 2 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Action Surge. What an imbalanced ability. Now you can do the same combo as above but ALSO cast Silence in the same turn you stab and grapple.
Fighter 3 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Getting to Fighter 3 gets you Battle Master, which will almost always be a Trip Attack applied to your opening stab. It's also an added 2d8 damage (1d8 doubled) on your automatic critical hit, which ups that Con save to DC 17 with disadvantage on the roll. Now your combo looks like this: Sneak up and stab to force a concentration save. As part of that sneak, apply a trip attack to get them prone. Then take a bonus action to grapple off Tavern Brawler. Now Action Surge, drop your improvised Short Sword, and cast Silence.
Fighter 4 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Level 4 Feat: Warcaster, Lucky, Magic Initiate
Bunch of different feat options here. Go Warcaster to guarantee that Silence doesn't get cracked. Go Lucky for an added guarantee on the initial grapple check. Or go Magic Initiate to gain Find Familiar, which you can use to take the Help action on that initial grapple (freeing up your pre-battle spell for Invisibility).
Fighter 5 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Extra Attack is the next evolution of your mage-murdering combo. Now that you have two attacks, you can replace one with a shove attempt, and modify the opening stab with Menacing Attack instead of Trip Attack. Stalk up to your target and take the attack action. Apply Menacing Attack to the stab and force a DC 17 (average) save with dsiadvantage. If they fail the wisdom save on the Menacing Attack, now they have disadvantage for the rest of the turn. Use shove in place of your second extra attack, and grapple with Tavern Brawler as a bonus action. Drop the sword, action surge, cast Silence, and watch your DM and his wizard cry.
Fighter 5 / Bard 5 / Rogue 3
Fighter 5 / Bard 6 / Rogue 3
The big bonus here is Magical Secrets through College of Lore. And boy, there are a lot of options to pick from, so this is a great way to round out your skillset. Two standout options I want to discuss are Blinding Smite and Counterspell. Counterspell is a somatic-only spell that will work even with Silence, and it's the best way to guarantee that your caster is totally locked down. Blinding Smite is a Paladin spell that requires concentration (so no invisibility), but adds 3d8 damage to your attack roll and forces a save to avoid blindness. If you connect with Assassinate on that opening hit and auto crit, your save will be basically impossible to match: an AVERAGE save of DC 31 made with disadvantage. Even if you don't automatically crit, it's still a DC 17 average save with disadvantage. Those are just two options you can take at this level.
From Level 14 onward, I recommend that you continue progressing in Bard to get that level 10 Magical Secrets feature. Then you can paly with those last two levels wherever you want.

One key to this build is beating the scariest spell of them all: Freedom of Movement. It's actually not that hard, but it just requires a combo modification. You will still open with your massive damage spike, still grapple the target with Tavern Brawler, and still shove them with your attack. But instead of casting Silence, you will cast Dispel Magic and try to strip the buff away. The DC is 14, and your bonus will be 3 + 1/2 of your proficency bonus (thanks Jack of all Trades). If you have the presence of mind to Enhance Ability (Charisma) yourself beforehand, you will have advantage on that check. After you remove it, just have a Counterspell ready for the intervening turn to stop anything your opponent tries. Then just Silence at the beginning of your second round.

That description should give you some idea of how narrow this build is, but also how powerful it is at shutting down a single spellcasting target. Despite this narrowness, there are lots of ways to increase your flexibility; Bards have so many useful spells in that regard, and you definitely aren't a shabby grappler even your target isn't a Mage. Just figure out ways to adapt your combo and you will be ready for grappling anyone, whether scrawny-armed and pointed-hatted or not“

[DrLoveMonkey]

Magic items and lots of damage.

I'm going to say double down on the magic items here. You're probably going to want some combination of an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location, Mantle of Spell Resistance, Ring of Invisibility, high damage magic weapon, Interdimentional Shackles, there's a few others to consider. Also load yourself down with potions.

The important thing is to not be seen, which is really hard with ward spells that you can't bypass without magic. If you're a thief rogue you can use spell scrolls but I'm not sure if that fits with your no magic idea, which means no dispel magic or counterspell, which is a really really hard thing to work. It's not so bad at lower levels, where the worst thing you'll have to deal with is a Scorching Ray, but at higher levels spells like Forcecage really shut you down with no chance to avoid it.

Also you're going to need a somewhat lenient DM, because some spells like Clone and Simulacrum and stuff are just nearly impossible to get around without magic. They're pretty hard to get around even WITH magic. If they know Clone and Demiplane the only real way to kill them is by somehow breaking into their own personal pocket dimension and breaking their clones, some of which might be scattered across the planes, and doing this all without the wizard's knowledge so that they don't have time to make another when you go after them.


Of course a DM that wants to run a party of magehunters will probably just say that particular wizard never got his hands on Clone or Demiplane or stuff like that, otherwise he's kind of being a ****. Or it's an entire campaign about hunting a single wizard.

[Phhase]

From the old grapplers manual. I would suggest you can get Silence spells as a Shadow Monk.


”Build 2: The Mage Slayer (Bard/Fighter/Rogue)
Some players just hate Wizards. You don't know what it is about Wizards that you hate, but boy do you hate them. Probably those pointy hats or their scrawny arms. Whatever the reason, when it comes to massacring mages at all levels of the game, accept nothing less than the Mage Slayer grappler. This is an extremely narrow build that, although useful against a variety of enemy types and classes, is at its best against those pesky magic users. There are tons of ways to build an antimage grappler (Wizard with Antimagic Field is another route), but this build will be the most relevant at all levels of the game, and is most likely to give your DMs magic practitioners a serious head/neck/throat ache.

The build functions around the almighty Silence spell, a no-save-allowed way to stop most magic cold. Your main class is College of Lore Bard, which gets you access to an arsenal of mage-murdering spells and gives you the highest possible single grapple checks of any class. It is critical to have high single grapple checks as a Mage Slayer because that initial grapple in the area of Silence is the most important. Once they are stuck there, they just can't do anything. Setting up that Silence will require a few different combinations of features, actions, and spells. As wizards scale up their power, your combos will scale with them. But because each engagement is so resource intensive, the build is heavily dependent on rests in between engagements, That play style might not suit everyone, but for those who want to give mages (and your DM) nightmares, this is the build for you.

As a final note, I emphasize this again: the build really is a single target, mage killing optimization. It's narrow, it's a nightmare for wizards, and it's a bit...strange, as far as grapplers go...

Starting Race: Human
Although you can go Mountain Dwarf in this build, Human is a better option because of how feat intensive the build is, especially at early levels.

Ability Scores: Here's your 27 point buy array assuming shameless optimization choices.
Str: 15 (Human +1 - Show those wimpy Wizards how it's done)
Dex 13 (Required for the Rogue multiclass)
Con 10 (This is a single-target, glass-cannon build. We can't afford to max out HP at the expense of other stas)
Int 8 (Int saves just aren't all that common, and those you do have to worry about shouldn't even work in an area of Silence)
Wis 10 (Never dump this; Wisdom saves tend to govern fear, and you do not want to be frightened as a grappler)
Cha 15 (Human +1 - More Charisma means more Cutting Words attempts)

Fighter 1
Human level 1 feat: Tavern Brawler
As with many grappling builds, start in Fighter to get the Heavy Armor Proficiency without spending a Feat. We get Warcaster both to concentrate on our spells in the fight, and to cast spells while wielding. We are also going to get the Dueling fighting style, and Tavern Brawler so we can grapple after making an attack (we will need that attack eventually to cause damage to trigger Mage Slayer).
Fighter 1 / Bard 1
With Heavy Armor acquired, we go straight for our Bard features/spells at level 3.
Fighter 1 / Bard 2
Fighter 1 / Bard 3
Expertise? Check. Cutting Words? Check. Silence? Check. Enhance Ability? Check. You now have access to your most basic combo. Cast Enhance Ability on yourself before the fight. At the beginning of the fight, walk over to the target and grapple them with advantage. Next turn, cast Silence on the area. We will defnitely do better than that later, but it's only level 4.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4
Level 4 Feat: Mage Slayer
Here's our next piece of the combo. Starting at level 5, you will encounter more situations where enemies have preexisting concentration-based spells before you grapple them. Those often need to go away if you are to win the fight, and Mage Slayer is going to get that done.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 1
To break concentration, we need big damage rolls on a single attack at the start of the fight. Rogue is going to get that done. Level 1 gets you Sneak Attack; you already have Expertise from Bard..
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 2
Cunning Action normally rocks at this level, but you generally won't use it because of Tavern Brawler. We are really going into Rogue to get the next class feature.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Assassinate plus Mage Slayer plus surprise equals impossible concentration saves. Now that we have finished out the Mage Slayer feature tree, we can change our combo to really ruin a mage's day. For your pre-fight buff, you have two options from the Bard 2 spell list. You can either stick with Enhance Ability and use Stealth to approach a target, or you can use Invisibility. Either way, you just want to make sure your target is surprised. Walk up to them and stab them with your improvised weapon short sword; it shouldn't take too much DM convincing to improvise a short sword. The attack will automatically score a critical hit for 6d6+5 damage (2d6 short sword, 4d6 sneak attack, 3 strength, 2 dueling). That assumes no magical buffs that add damage die, and you are already at an expected DC 13 Concentration save that they must make with disadvantage. Then grapple them and hold them in place until next turn when you can Silence.
Fighter 2 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Action Surge. What an imbalanced ability. Now you can do the same combo as above but ALSO cast Silence in the same turn you stab and grapple.
Fighter 3 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Getting to Fighter 3 gets you Battle Master, which will almost always be a Trip Attack applied to your opening stab. It's also an added 2d8 damage (1d8 doubled) on your automatic critical hit, which ups that Con save to DC 17 with disadvantage on the roll. Now your combo looks like this: Sneak up and stab to force a concentration save. As part of that sneak, apply a trip attack to get them prone. Then take a bonus action to grapple off Tavern Brawler. Now Action Surge, drop your improvised Short Sword, and cast Silence.
Fighter 4 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Level 4 Feat: Warcaster, Lucky, Magic Initiate
Bunch of different feat options here. Go Warcaster to guarantee that Silence doesn't get cracked. Go Lucky for an added guarantee on the initial grapple check. Or go Magic Initiate to gain Find Familiar, which you can use to take the Help action on that initial grapple (freeing up your pre-battle spell for Invisibility).
Fighter 5 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Extra Attack is the next evolution of your mage-murdering combo. Now that you have two attacks, you can replace one with a shove attempt, and modify the opening stab with Menacing Attack instead of Trip Attack. Stalk up to your target and take the attack action. Apply Menacing Attack to the stab and force a DC 17 (average) save with dsiadvantage. If they fail the wisdom save on the Menacing Attack, now they have disadvantage for the rest of the turn. Use shove in place of your second extra attack, and grapple with Tavern Brawler as a bonus action. Drop the sword, action surge, cast Silence, and watch your DM and his wizard cry.
Fighter 5 / Bard 5 / Rogue 3
Fighter 5 / Bard 6 / Rogue 3
The big bonus here is Magical Secrets through College of Lore. And boy, there are a lot of options to pick from, so this is a great way to round out your skillset. Two standout options I want to discuss are Blinding Smite and Counterspell. Counterspell is a somatic-only spell that will work even with Silence, and it's the best way to guarantee that your caster is totally locked down. Blinding Smite is a Paladin spell that requires concentration (so no invisibility), but adds 3d8 damage to your attack roll and forces a save to avoid blindness. If you connect with Assassinate on that opening hit and auto crit, your save will be basically impossible to match: an AVERAGE save of DC 31 made with disadvantage. Even if you don't automatically crit, it's still a DC 17 average save with disadvantage. Those are just two options you can take at this level.
From Level 14 onward, I recommend that you continue progressing in Bard to get that level 10 Magical Secrets feature. Then you can paly with those last two levels wherever you want.

One key to this build is beating the scariest spell of them all: Freedom of Movement. It's actually not that hard, but it just requires a combo modification. You will still open with your massive damage spike, still grapple the target with Tavern Brawler, and still shove them with your attack. But instead of casting Silence, you will cast Dispel Magic and try to strip the buff away. The DC is 14, and your bonus will be 3 + 1/2 of your proficency bonus (thanks Jack of all Trades). If you have the presence of mind to Enhance Ability (Charisma) yourself beforehand, you will have advantage on that check. After you remove it, just have a Counterspell ready for the intervening turn to stop anything your opponent tries. Then just Silence at the beginning of your second round.

That description should give you some idea of how narrow this build is, but also how powerful it is at shutting down a single spellcasting target. Despite this narrowness, there are lots of ways to increase your flexibility; Bards have so many useful spells in that regard, and you definitely aren't a shabby grappler even your target isn't a Mage. Just figure out ways to adapt your combo and you will be ready for grappling anyone, whether scrawny-armed and pointed-hatted or not“

Wow, that's pretty sweet. Counterspell is somatic-only, eh? And I assume that by Concentration broken by Assassinate, you mean any defensive spell the mage has active, right?

[JackPhoenix]

If you don't want to use magic, your best bet against casters is stealth, surprise and alpha strike before they get to do anything. Mages usually depend on their magic to provide defenses, you'll have to strike them while they are unprepared for combat. Murdering them in their sleep may not be honorable, but it works. Fighting them head-on without magic of your own is a fool's game.

Assassin rogue, Alert feat (so you have better chance to win initiative and get those sweet critical sneak attacks), Skulker feat (to get around any guards relying on darkvision and to better notice any surprises while you're sneaking to a sleeping mage- requires darkvision of your own), the nastiest poisons you can find, both in terms of damage and additional effects: anything that knock them unconscious or blinds them improves your chance. You can do the same thing at range, with Sharpshooter and longbow, you'll outrange most spells, no need for Skulker that way.

[Gignere]

If you don't want to use magic, your best bet against casters is stealth, surprise and alpha strike before they get to do anything. Mages usually depend on their magic to provide defenses, you'll have to strike them while they are unprepared for combat. Murdering them in their sleep may not be honorable, but it works. Fighting them head-on without magic of your own is a fool's game.

Assassin rogue, Alert feat (so you have better chance to win initiative and get those sweet critical sneak attacks), Skulker feat (to get around any guards relying on darkvision and to better notice any surprises while you're sneaking to a sleeping mage- requires darkvision of your own), the nastiest poisons you can find, both in terms of damage and additional effects: anything that knock them unconscious or blinds them improves your chance. You can do the same thing at range, with Sharpshooter and longbow, you'll outrange most spells, no need for Skulker that way.

I agree that this is the best way for a pure martial to be the anti caster. I would recommend in addition to alert, skulker, consider adding in elven accuracy. For most humanoid caster you can probably instagib them.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Simple Solution: Play a Monster-Slayer Ranger. They get a bunch of anti-magic abilities. The problem being that Rangers are half casters. If you stick to stuff like Pass without Trace or Swift Quiver, you can probably pretend it's all training, though.

Alternate Solution: Monk isn't bad either. Run up really fast and punch those mages so hard they can't think to cast spells (ie Stun them). Plus Evasion, Stillness of Mind, and Diamond Soul are all good at defending against magic users. Open Hand and Long Death, and Drunken Master don't rely on overtly magical abilities (even being so peaceful people don't want to attack you or so scary they have disadvantage on it can be flavored as the result of training). Shadow, Elemental, and Sun Soul might feel too magical for you (though Shadow is an edge case).

[A Lax Caster]

Lax Caster, which is more important: no magic, or melee?

While there are several good ways to build a good ranged character to fight casters (the range of a longbow far exceeds that of most spells), and several good ways to make a only somewhat magical character into a melee anti-caster (paladin has been mentioned repeatedly and is excellent), it's rather difficult to do both.

The only thing I could suggest that accomplishes both would be the following:

No magic, I think would be more important.

Because, part of the idea is that I've been playing since second edition, and I've always had this problem that "A High Level Fighter can't beat a High Level Wizard without the help of other Wizards. It's a flaw in the design of the game." Because a Fighter Needs A Buttload of magic Items, (IE, Items created By Wizards) to be able to go against a wizard and even have a Hope of defeating him.

Various editions have fixed Many, but not All, of these issues. In 3.5, for instance, grappling worked pretty well, (aside from Fly and a half dozen other spells).

Psionics, for instance, I don't mind as much, (and as weird as it may sound, I've always thought Monks fell under the heading of Psionic, rather than Magical) because Psionics represent to me the idea of the refining of the Mind and Body and unlocking the innate potential thereof, rather than Magic, which is relying on an External force, either from manipulating the forces of the world, or power from the Gods, or from another source, or from Lineage and Blood from something Different.

So that's why I'm really into the idea of As Little Magic as Possible.

And Moreover it's why I'm so Grateful for all the knowledge offered herein.

(A bit sorry for the argument regarding RAW vs RAI, but such things happen, it's the internet.) A monk is almost perfect, for instance. (Open hand better than Shadow, because it's much easier to believe Ki points are Psionic, and open hand abilities feel far more like Unlocking the Potential of the humanoid body and mind than dropping silence spells and teleporting.) A Paladin would be almost perfect, but again, it's relying on the power of a God. I can totally buy that So Many of their spells and abilities could be the result of just the sheer power of their Faith and Belief, (a Psionic-Sort of Paladin), regardless of the Gods involvement. I could just reflavour the paladins abilities like that, (and some would say, then just use EK or other Magic and call it Psionics Poof, you're done,) but that almost misses the point, I think? If that makes sense? The same reason the new UA Rune Knight wouldn't work for what I'm asking, or the new Psionics UA from this month. (Although that IS What Prompted this.)

I am truly appreciative of any input herein, and I'm not trying to be a brat, just explaining the thought process I've got here and why I'm doing it in such a... Difficult manner.

The idea of a person whose suffered persecution at the hands of mages, and doesn't want to indulge in their own tricks and abilities to defeat them is... Captivating to me.

[Ironheart]

I think Mage Slayer actually is a workable feat for fighters and rangers when paired with Sentinel due to the interaction where holding your action gives you an additional trigger to use your reaction rather than actually taking your reaction. This, paired with the fact that fighters get more than two attacks makes an attack action held for when a spell caster starts performing somatic components for their spell can (with an admittedly generous DM) possibly fit a space where you can interrupt concentration for any spell cast.

Sentinel can remove the option for spellcasters to simply just take the AoO and then cast their spell freely, while Mage Slayer can reward a fighter who thinks ahead and might ready a dash action to catch up to a wizard that teleports away, while still having one attack if they decide not to do that.

I personally think that Mage Slayer would go from laughable to actually good if it allowed attacks to ignore bonuses from the shield spell- taking away the emergency button for wizards and sorcerers will suddenly make that d6 hit dice feel a lot worse.

A lot of key points were brought up by previous posters; I’ll just add that Shillelagh can make for an interesting Wisdom based melee combatant if you’re looking for a naturally high Wisdom character that will be able to dodge the save or suck spells without having to sacrifice too much damage.

Also, Mantle of Spell Resistance is a rare item, one step above uncommon. This paired with a Fighter’s Indomitable feature can mean the difference between frustrating the fighter and frustrating the spellcaster, since all of the ‘great’ spells typically require a save.

[Tanarii]

No magic, I think would be more important.

Because, part of the idea is that I've been playing since second edition, and I've always had this problem that "A High Level Fighter can't beat a High Level Wizard without the help of other Wizards. It's a flaw in the design of the game." Because a Fighter Needs A Buttload of magic Items, (IE, Items created By Wizards) to be able to go against a wizard and even have a Hope of defeating him.
In AD&D & BECMI, low level magic-users needed their own fighters defending them to have a chance against other fighters. And high level fighters have two huge advantages over magic users : fantastic saves & able the best magic items (primarily magic swords).

I don't recall how much 2e changed that, but I also don't remember it being significantly different. It was 3e where wizards were truly broken, and a large chunk of that was because Fighters stopped have fantastic saves by high level. And also that powerful magic items were far more common for all classes.

The idea that martial characters won't have magic items has never been a core idea for D&D. What's changed in this edition is the idea that you should assume a certain number and power just to balance the game math.

[DrLoveMonkey]

If we're talking no magic and no magic items that's getting to be really hard. For one with no amulet of plane shift there's just no way to track this wizard to his demiplane, so if he's got a clone in there you're just out of luck. So let's assume he just doesn't have that. The equipment list in 5e is of very little help, no dousing arrows or alchemical smoke bombs or anything.

Catching them unaware would be hard, if they sleep in Leomunds Tiny Hut or with an alarm spell up especially. I think your best chance is to target wizards who don't have a lot of tricks and just fight them headon.