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View Full Version : New player, Golem class, and power gamers.



sanon
2007-10-19, 07:10 PM
I've been wanting to play DnD for a long while now, and me and some friends have set up a game, our DM is rather experienced so I think it will be a fun experience. The current party build is
Me a Gnome Wizard
A Aasimar Paladin
A Human Warlock (will be dead within' 5 minutes of game starting)
A Goliath Barbarian
A Human Rogue
and a Hound Archon Fighter.
We are all new players, though the Goliath has a bit of experience.

First I was wondering if it is wise to take the Wizard Class as my first class ever? Seems to be abit much to take in, and easy to screw up, can I get any advice? I can really take any inteligence type class at this point beacuse the DM has started writing the story, so I need to stick with my "Smartass Gnome scholar" thing.

Secondly, I want to have a golem, but seeing how hard those are to make decided to make a custom prestige class, here is what I have so far.

Golem Master, no offensive bits, only minor defensive, with useful bits thrown in.

The basics of the class is that at the first level of this class you make a Golem, haven't got the stats, but will have all the basic craft golem stuff (time to make, materials, craft checks, no exp though unless you make a second after the first is destroyed).

The class is Arcane based and looses one caster level by taking the class, but at every level after the first gets +1 to exsisting caster level.

At every level you can spend a certain amount of gold to upgrade its HD, though the more you hold off on this the less it costs per HD. It takes 1D8 hours to upgrade +1 per extra HD. The Golem has a D10 hit die, the class itself has D4

Every even level you get to add a upgrade/add-on to the golem itself, examples below, though I need more.

At 4th Golem Master HD you can choose one of two upgrades, both based on transformation. One of them is to allow the Golem to transform into a 4 legged form, which gains it 60ft run speed, but upgrades that require hands will no longer be useable, it is also mountable. The other is the same as the 4 legged, only its a flying form with 20ft land speed, 40ft flight speed and good maneuverability. You get the second upgrade at 8 HD

Transformation takes 3 full rounds.
4-legged- 60ft land speed, mountable, but looses some of the humanoid upgrades.
Flying- 20ft land speed, 40ft flight speed, mountable, looses some humanoid upgrades.
Humanoid- 30ft land speed, can use humanoid upgrades, has bucklers on each arm for +AC.

The humanoid form cannot attack as the Golem Master see's it as a peice of art and does not want it tarnished, though if the Golem Master falls to 50% HP the Golem will automatically come to the aid of its master unless otherwise commanded. When attacking as such it has a slam attack for 1D6 damage, which can be used twice as a full round action.

-Boo- You create a single mechanical hamster and store it in the golem, at the command "Go for the eyes Boo" the golem fires the hamster, and must make a ranged touch attack roll to see if it hits, if it does it grapples and does 1d6 dmg, on a roll of 20 the enemy looses its eyes. The Hamster has a range of 40ft, and attempts to scurry back into the golem after doing its work, it has a land speed of 30ft.
-Storage Compartment- self explanatory.
-Wand rack, allows the Golem Master to draw a wand as a free action. "The machinery in the golem whirrs and a wand flips out into it's hand. It presents the wand to its master with the pride of a dog playing fetch"
-Scroll case. same as above for scrolls.
-Magical compass. The golem keeps a map of places it has been and always knows where it is in relation to that. Like a GPS, but only shows places the golem has been.

Really I just want a Golem, so if anyone can think of better alternatives, then please, tell them. It was suggested to me to simply make a golem and have it considered an ugradable magic item.

Finnally, the hound archon character, who is a rather obvious power gamer, I think that he will unbalance the group, is there anything I can do about this?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-19, 07:17 PM
While it'd be hard to explain WHY the class wouldn't work, because it'd take a page of post, let's say it unbalanced. But against you, it's weeeeeeeeaaaaaaak. And don't worry about the hound archon guy. He'll soon find out that LA is one of the most suboptimal things ever. And I'd take some other class, a wizard has to do tons o' bookkeping.

PS: Always a classic. "Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!". Minsc = the best NPC ever. Only one who comes close is Jan Jansen.

The Glyphstone
2007-10-19, 07:18 PM
Well, "Golem" is a pretty vague term - here's the basic golems in the Monster Manual, there's a zillion different kinds in various other books.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm


Seeing as how a Flesh Golem is CR7, requiring an 8th level caster to make, the PrC shouldn't be enterable until Level 8 at least...

Actually, this entire thread would be much better in our Homebrew forum, where you might get more help.


For your game-related questions...a Sorcerer might be better than a Wizard if you're new to D&D - same basic flavor, but a lot less bookkeeping.

As for the Hound Archon - see above...LA is very rarely good, except in cases like an Ogre Mage or certain other monsters. He may be a power gamer, but it doesn't sound like he's very good at it.

Raolin_Fenix
2007-10-19, 07:21 PM
Don't be a wizard your first time playing. Play something simpler, like a fighter, or a monk, or a barbarian. To be fair, they suck, but they're simple enough.

Bring in a wizard after you've had some time to get your bearings. Seriously, it's a lot to take in. Trying to juggle everything that the wizard has to know is a chore for anyone. Once you've been hit by some of the spells, you'll have a better idea of how to go about casting them.

sanon
2007-10-19, 07:28 PM
Well, "Golem" is a pretty vague term - here's the basic golems in the Monster Manual, there's a zillion different kinds in various other books.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm


Seeing as how a Flesh Golem is CR7, requiring an 8th level caster to make, the PrC shouldn't be enterable until Level 8 at least...

Actually, this entire thread would be much better in our Homebrew forum, where you might get more help.


For your game-related questions...a Sorcerer might be better than a Wizard if you're new to D&D - same basic flavor, but a lot less bookkeeping.

As for the Hound Archon - see above...LA is very rarely good, except in cases like an Ogre Mage or certain other monsters. He may be a power gamer, but it doesn't sound like he's very good at it.

I was thinking Sorc with more int so I can RP correctly, but I wasent sure, beacuse I like alot of the RP typish spells. Also whats LA?


Don't be a wizard your first time playing. Play something simpler, like a fighter, or a monk, or a barbarian. To be fair, they suck, but they're simple enough.

Bring in a wizard after you've had some time to get your bearings. Seriously, it's a lot to take in. Trying to juggle everything that the wizard has to know is a chore for anyone. Once you've been hit by some of the spells, you'll have a better idea of how to go about casting them.

True, but I don't want to be yet another Melee artist in our group of beatsticks, and don't mind the challenge of learning my spells, I'm sure I'll get it in 2 or 3 sessions.

toddex
2007-10-19, 07:29 PM
Alot of people are telling you this "not to be a wizard first game" stuff because the usual First game wizard is a very big annoyance. Constantly asking for books to check spells mid NPC interaction or mid battle. Always forgetting what this or that spell does which then ends up going back to the books.

I say just make sure to know EXACTLY what your spells do in your spell list DC, spell resist, school that stuff and youll be fine.

Kizara
2007-10-19, 07:33 PM
Be a druid.

All the fun of a marshall class, the cheese of a divine one, and an animal companion that can keep pace with a fighter of equivilent level.

LA= Level adjustment. Meaning, having a wierd race gives you 'racial adjustment levels' because you get powerful stuff.

I believe Goliath is LA 1, because it gets powerful build and high strength and consitution boosts.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, cause it's possible its LA 2.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-19, 07:38 PM
Really, as much as I believe your bookkeping skills, DON'T play a wizard for now. Heck, it's not because we don't like you. It's because being a wiz is a monstrous challenge. Let me illustrate. after my fifth one off session, I decided I wanted to play a wiz. I started picking my spells and all that jazz. It took me 8 hours to do it (I was prepping spells up to 3rd level, mind you). Wizard requires a lot of checking and preparing. It's not something to do until you really are an experienced player at D&D. If you are hellbent on spells, either play a sorc or a bladewizard, also known as swordsage. Maneuvers are THAT much easier to keep tabs of, and they're not nearly as imbalanced.

And as for LA, it's a restriction place to limit the class levels you can take. Every +1 to LA means you'll have one less level than a normal guy. So, LA 5 would mean you're 5 levels behind, which makes you that much crappier in combat and out of it. So your hound archon friend is going to get blasted to hell and back when he lags.

Draz74
2007-10-19, 07:39 PM
I say, go ahead and be a Wizard for your first character. The comments you've already made make me think you'll be a pretty competent Wizard -- one who knows what the class's abilities and limitations* are, and who actually reads what his spells do. It'll work out. And there aren't many other choices (especially in Core!) for an Int-based, scholarly character, and those other choices are probably just as hard to learn and just as easy to "mess up."

Although if Beguiler is allowed, that's a good option too. Beguiler who's more of a scholar than a sneak ... I like it.



* Yes, before someone argues about it, Wizards do have limitations. At least in the context of what a new player thinks they can do. My point is that the OP won't be doing things like "I cast Magic Missile at the darkness." :smalltongue:

sanon
2007-10-19, 07:58 PM
Well I don't think the Hound will Lag that much, he has a hundred and something HP (we start at lv 4, regardless of LA, though he wont gain a level for another 5 levels worth of experience), and enough AC that the only way the Goliath can hit him is with a roll of 20.

Why would Sorc be a better choice than Wizard? Does the spell book really add that much to difficulty, and as far as spells go, I'll write down what I have in a more compressed and easy to access form, then print it out.

If Sorc is really that much better then I'll just reroll and have high int and cha. Wouldn't be much of a stretch story wise.

bugsysservant
2007-10-19, 07:58 PM
As for the Hound Archon - see above...LA is very rarely good, except in cases like an Ogre Mage or certain other monsters. He may be a power gamer, but it doesn't sound like he's very good at it.

Wait, Ogre Mage is a good use of LA? +7 LA with 5 HD seems a bit steep. The best uses for LA tend to be rather cheesy, such Feral, Mineral Warrior, or the part white dragon one from Dragon Magazine.

Edit: Oh, and a hound archon would be a terrible use of a race. For one thing he'll be eleven levels ahead of the rest of the party, unless you start very high, and if you start high, all your spell could take you day to pick as a wizard.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-19, 08:15 PM
This might interest you: The Somaturge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49859).

StickMan
2007-10-19, 08:29 PM
For cheap golems plz see Dragon 341 for all your cheap Golem loving needs. Paper golems are medium size cost 400 GP and are a Crafter level of 5. Ok they are Challenge rating one but they are great for swarming and you can up the Hitdice.

Tin Golem is a little more solid at CL 3 but also have an INT score so they can actually do things for you and once more you can up the Hit dice.

Junk Golems are CL 5 and cost 4,500 GP to make also a fun option.

There are a few others in there as well.

Also the Artificer class from ebberon rocks and makes some constructs as well. I find it simper than a wizard. They can be breakable if you really want to be a power gamer but are fun over all.

daggaz
2007-10-19, 09:27 PM
Wizards are easy enough to play your first time around, dont pay any attention to all these people saying otherwise. You dont have to play perfectly, or be batman, or even be just above average.

Just read thru your available spells, get whatever information you can about the campaign from the DM, and pick whatever seems cool. If you really want to optimize, read thru the boards about what spells are good and what are not, tho do realize, this is slightly more opinion than statistical fact, and everything hinges on your DM and the campaign.

The best advice given so far was just to be prepared with knowing what your spells are and what they do. Have the sheets printed out so you arent thumbing thru books. It saves time and time is the one resource in DnD that costs the most.

Anyhow, I have seen plenty of total noobs start DnD with a wizard, and while they didnt do incredibly great, they did well enough and they had fun, and more importantly, they played what they wanted to play and they got better at it. A totally new player will make just as many grevious errors playing a fighter or a barbarian, as they will with a wizard.

....
2007-10-19, 09:31 PM
What the hell kind of DM lets a newbie play a HOUND ARCHON?

You know all that guy did was flip open the MM and go, "Woah, awesome, a dog-man. Can I be that?"

sanon
2007-10-19, 09:50 PM
What the hell kind of DM lets a newbie play a HOUND ARCHON?

You know all that guy did was flip open the MM and go, "Woah, awesome, a dog-man. Can I be that?"

Well he originally wanted to be a Dwarf Werebear, he was flippin through the MM, saw the Hound and thought it was cool, I suggested he just be that if he likes it so much :P

Quietus
2007-10-19, 11:03 PM
Well, considering you've expanded into Homebrew, I take it you won't object too much to noncore, in which case I thumb you toward Complete Warrior, and its "Guardian Familiars". THere are three kinds - a bird that shoots sparks (available at level 7), a short, stocky, small-sized humanoid tin can with giant fists (available at level 9), and a medium-sized humanoid robot with spinning blades.

These require you to have the Improved Familiar feat from the same book, which will give you some nice choices up until you can get a Guardian Familiar - at third level you have Krenshar and Worgs available, and every two levels more (typically landborne four-legged) options come available to you.

Of course, you could always just refluff the existing familiar as being a robotic creature, and leave everything else the same. Familiars don't get targetted often enough to make the differences matter, generally.

osyluth
2007-10-20, 12:25 AM
if you have a laptop you can use it to make bookkeeping easier... or to make it impossible to find anything

CthulhuM
2007-10-20, 03:58 AM
Heh, I was going to plug my golem-using homebrew, but someone already did it for me. :smallbiggrin:

That said, if you want to play a smart, scholarly type, and like the idea of having golems, and want to stay in core, you could just go with a psion (all details available in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm)). It's less bookkeeping since there's no Vancian magic to choose and memorize every day, you have fewer "spells" to worry about, you don't need to worry about keeping a spellbook and scribing scrolls into it, and if you play a shaper the astral construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm) power gives you golems of a sort right off the bat.

Xefas
2007-10-20, 04:59 AM
Spellcasters aren't all that difficult to play. I started my newest player, who'd never played a tabletop RPG before, with a lvl 8 Tiefling Dread Necromancer, and after about a half hour, it was fine, since he got the hang of what his spells did and everything. Not that there weren't accidents; he did accidentally cause serious permanent brain damage to a bunch of children he was suppose to be saving, but that was a problem with undead, and not spells...

Anyway, I'd suggest Effigy Master (from CA) for your golem needs. Just because...well, you can have a construct version of anything! Watch as your turn balloons to 10x as long as everyone else's, as you command a legion of robotic servants against your enemies! Spend entire sessions arguing about how it's unfair that your Cloud Giant Effigy can't fit into the dungeon, when the DM is clearly not handicapping anyone else! Always be tempted to just use your superior numbers to overpower your teammates and dump them naked in the woods, leaving the entire dragon horde for yourself!

It's a wealth of possibilities!

lord_khaine
2007-10-20, 06:03 AM
ok, how on earth did a lv 11 hound archon get into a level 4 group?
it has 6 racial HD and a level adjustment of 5
(meaning it counts as a lv 11 char)

does he have all the archon powers, and does the gm knows how LA works?

sanon
2007-10-20, 12:11 PM
ok, how on earth did a lv 11 hound archon get into a level 4 group?
it has 6 racial HD and a level adjustment of 5
(meaning it counts as a lv 11 char)

does he have all the archon powers, and does the gm knows how LA works?

The GM knows, he has been GMing for a long long time, I don't think he put much thought into his "start at lv 4, count LA later" plan. It's no big deal, he has stated if he see's the Archon being to powerful he will handicap him.

Hasivel
2007-10-20, 01:00 PM
If it's available there's two other options from the Eberron setting, the Warforged are golem-like living constructs who are available from level one for any class, treated as a base race.

Eberron also has the Artificer base class which is a lot like the class you've homebrewed up, they are item-based casters who build golems and spellcasting devices, and even get a "Pool" of points that increases with level allowing them to build such things within limits without spending any EXP.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-20, 01:03 PM
The GM knows, he has been GMing for a long long time, I don't think he put much thought into his "start at lv 4, count LA later" plan. It's no big deal, he has stated if he see's the Archon being to powerful he will handicap him.

Actually, it will be a big deal. Never allow new players to play anything but basic races. They usually don't know what their doing and screw it up. That sounds like a very bad call by the GM and I'd be worried.

sanon
2007-10-20, 01:14 PM
I think I'll go wit Psion, seems the simplest choice and some of the spells look pretty fun.

Just Alex
2007-10-20, 03:47 PM
Actually, it will be a big deal. Never allow new players to play anything but basic races. They usually don't know what their doing and screw it up. That sounds like a very bad call by the GM and I'd be worried.

QFT. It seems pretty dumb to have a level 4 party where one of the characters gets a +4 Greatsword as a racial ability.