OOTS #1189 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

Also, a News post about the hiatus.

[knag]

Whoa. Who are they?!?!? OMG there's so much to speculate on for the next two months!

I'm gonna say it's Roy's Archon and a long lost god of the Eastern Pantheon, given the colors of their speech bubbles.

[Sniccups]

...what?!

I don't...

Apparently there's one more whole side in play that we had no idea about?
And what do they mean in the last panel?!

Great cliffhanger.

[Rinazina]

what can fly invisible and use poison dart?
and belong to one of the destroy-the-world faction?
brilliant cliffhanger :)

have a great vacation Rich!

[HandofShadows]

New characters and we don't have a clue who they are. But at least we know they aren't evil.

[CriticalFailure]

My first assumption was that they are connected to the IFCC, but I wonder if it could be something else...

[Myta]

wow, great comic to end the volume.

we already got told that there are more factions a long time ago... it seems one more will be revealed soon.

[Sniffnoy]

New characters and we don't have a clue who they are. But at least we know they aren't evil.

Do we? These sound like the IFCC's agents to me...

[nabcif]

Yay, we're finally meeting Serini! Kinda. Maybe.

[JumboWheat01]

I feel like those speech bubbles would get along well with the wolf.

[Sylian]

I wonder what they meant with "That could've gone better"?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

My first assumption was that they are connected to the IFCC, but I wonder if it could be something else...
That was my first idea too, probably because they have colored speech bubbles. But the IFCC don't seem to want to destroy the world, and while they could have plans that involve the current world and a lot of its inhabitants seizing to exist I don't think they employ anybody noble enough to voluntarily and inescapably die for that cause.


New characters and we don't have a clue who they are. But at least we know they aren't evil.
They could easily be evil, they might just need some reason to want the paladins alive.

[Vingelot]

Who are you? What do you want?
Someone has been watching a bit of Babylon 5...


I agree, great ending and enough to discuss for the meantime. I also thought about IFCC minions spontaneously.


{scrubbed}

[Sniccups]

I don't think it's the IFCC. All fiendish characters so far have had some black in their speech bubbles, whether the text or the background.

[Jannoire]

Do we? These sound like the IFCC's agents to me...

Wrong color for that, I'd wager...

But how can you keep us hanging like this, Rich?
I know, you did it before, but I started reading during the Godsmoot, so this is the first time I feel the burn of having to wait :(

[In4Dimensions]

Do we? These sound like the IFCC's agents to me...
Especially since they talked about getting more involved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1183.html). The orange speech bubbles look quite similar (albeit without any black in the newer speech bubble), but I wonder who the green is.

[knag]

Yay, we're finally meeting Serini! Kinda. Maybe.

Ooh. Could be! Serini and her henchman as oathspirits? Soon Kim also had color on color speech bubble, as did Girard Draketooth. I'm revising my earlier prediction of Roy's Archon and a god of the East. I like OOTScribble oathspirit, or maybe just invisible, but based on the last panel, I think oathspirit.

[Theshipening]

Could still be IFCC’s agents, they’re known to employ non-fiendish assets.

[Crusher]

That's a heck of a poison!

[Phoniex]

NOOO we can't wait and see for the new reveal its too good! GREAT as always giant!

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Is there anyone who's had that style of speech bubble before? Darker [color] text and outline on a lighter [same color] background?

EDIT: Ninja'd, and someone answered (the oathspirits). I suppose I should have expected that.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's the Ninth Side: Right-Eye's daughter and Fyron's son.

[CriticalFailure]

That was my first idea too, probably because they have colored speech bubbles. But the IFCC don't seem to want to destroy the world, and while they could have plans that involve the current world and a lot of its inhabitants seizing to exist I don't think they employ anybody noble enough to voluntarily and inescapably die for that cause.


The IFCC did say that the Gods destroying the world would be doing their work for them, so I think they might want the world destroyed. So IFCC seems pretty likely. The colored speech bubbles had me wondering for a second if Tiamat could be involving her agents to get back at other gods, but that doesn't seem to tie in at all really.

[Petrocorus]

V was sending to Lien indeed.

And Team Evil hasn't found the door yet. Good.

Who are these people? The speech bubbles ring a bell. Notably the red-orange one.
Could be agents of one of the gods who want to destroy the world for safety reason.

[Anarion]

I’m interested in where these two are going. The last panel with the wide view didn’t jump anything out at me, just lots of snow and Kraagor’s gate.

[nabcif]

Yay, we're finally meeting Serini! Kinda. Maybe.


I don't think it's the IFCC. All fiendish characters so far have had some black in their speech bubbles, whether the text or the background.

Oh right: speech bubbles. Probably not Serini then, though these beings might be working for her.

"[Existing was] fun while it lasted" doesn't necessarily mean that's the end of the world is what they want, might be simply what they expect at this point.

[Bilbo Baggins]

The green bubble must be one of the Eastern gods, who secretly survived the snarl. The orange is Banjo the clown, ascended to godhood using orange quiddity.

[tawnyterror]

I am SO enthused by.. whatever just happened. what's the guesses & consensus so far on the identities of those two? & what do the name colors imply?

[kiapet]

That's an impressive poison if it can get through O'Chul's ridiculous Con score AND paladin resistance

[AnimeSensei]

Poor O-Chul, always captured.

[Random Poster]

If this is the north pole, then "southeast ledge" is a pretty useless description of the paladins' location.

[Ornithologist]

I don't think either are related to the eastern gods. Though running one as a demi god like Hercules might be apropo.

I really think that the colored balloons is mostly from a standpoint of who is who. My best guess the the orange one is related to Serini.

[Psyren]

Yay, we're finally meeting Serini! Kinda. Maybe.

I thought this too, but the speech bubbles seem... outsidery? Though I guess it could still be her faction?


New characters and we don't have a clue who they are. But at least we know they aren't evil.

Chaotic seems like a sound guess though, given the exchange with Lien.

We saw a Slaad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html) with a funny color speech bubble?

[Gift Jeraff]

Ooh. Could be! Serini and her henchman as oathspirits? Soon Kim also had color on color speech bubble, as did Girard Draketooth. I'm revising my earlier prediction of Roy's Archon and a god of the East. I like OOTScribble oathspirit, or maybe just invisible, but based on the last panel, I think oathspirit.

Enor, the Crystal Golem, and the frost giants also had colour-on-colour speech balloons.

[TheNecrocomicon]

That's an impressive poison if it can get through O'Chul's ridiculous Con score AND paladin resistance

Which is why it suggests to me something of the below:

- an epic-level Rogue, or her apprentice(s), with advanced stealth and sneak attack abilities
- powerful agents of the IFCC obtaining their promised "vessel"
- some random hitherto-unrevealed side of the conflict to make it even more of a ball-of-yarn pileup

[malakim2099]

That's an impressive poison if it can get through O'Chul's ridiculous Con score AND paladin resistance

That's my thought. Leaning towards agents of the Eastern Gods that have been alive in the Snarl the entire time. Or at least one agent of them, anyway. Though the IFCC can't be ruled out either.

SO MUCH SPECULATION FOR THE NEXT FEW MONTHS!

[Psyren]

If this is the north pole, then "southeast ledge" is a pretty useless description of the paladins' location.

I'm guessing its southeast of the ravine, which itself is not directly on the pole.


That's an impressive poison if it can get through O'Chul's ridiculous Con score AND paladin resistance

He has a Cha penalty per the geekery thread so there isn't much "paladin mojo" protecting him, just raw constitution.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Perhaps an oathspirit of the Eastern Gods, sworn to protect a cause that has never died, propelled by a single-minded compulsion to fulfill its oath, which could finally be ended now?

[PontificatusRex]

Wow, that is indeed quite the cliffhanger.

I have no idea what would explain the speech balloons, but I'm still leaning heavily towards Serini. Invisibility+Darts with massively strong knockout poison seems like high-level rogue tactics. And as Elan would point out, it would be really odd for her never to show up in the story at all.

[Schroeswald]

I got no fricking clue what’s going on, I’m glad the paladins still live, and everyone one of you owes my money cause I knew TE wouldn’t find the gate.

[Vingelot]

True about the IFCC's speech bubbles. And come to think about it, "I guess we're finally doing this, huh?" also doesn't sound like IFCC agents, but rather some unknown third party.

[Wowlock]

Dang it, a group who WANT to get eaten by Snarl? Why not just go jump into the portal and leave the world alone? :D

[Rinazina]

I thought this too, but the speech bubbles seem... outsidery? Though I guess it could still be her faction?



Chaotic seems like a sound guess though, given the exchange with Lien.


Serini was a Good character, correct? Poisoning, betraying your words, and throw two unconscious bodies doesn't look like a decent act.

But attention can be posed on "Existing." they are ceasing their existence, or they are talking about the world?

also, I would rule out some Gate protection sect like the Sapphire legion ghosts, because the two passive bystanders wouldn't be their primary target.

I would rule out Eastern Gods too, too much deus-ex-machina and quite a stretch believing the other pantheons would not feel them.

[Vingelot]

Dang it, a group who WANT to get eaten by Snarl? Why not just go jump into the portal and leave the world alone? :D

We don't know their intentions yet... Could be they have their own plan to help stop the snarl/TE or they might need the paladins as hostages to get the OotSs attention or something...

[GrayDeath]

Huh!? But....wait.....what?


Color coded, Invisible, in possession of Paladin defeating Poison, and rather smart AND both knowing the world might end and accepting it?


OK, thats an EVIL cliffhanger if I ever saw one, and I read a practical Guide to Evil.

Well done! And have a nice relaxing Hiatus, Rich!

[UnintensifiedFa]

I'm actually stunned, I was expecting a big reveal, but nothing of this magnitude!



My suspicions are that one of them is Serini's Oathspirt. It makes sense. She's not powerful enough to stop Xykon alone (It took a whole army of oathspirits to take him down). So she's "recruiting" the friendly paladins. Plus, it's a chance for a (probably chaotic) rogue to mess with some paladins. She'd also probably want to ensure that the paladins couldn't react, so she probably has to subdue them (poison). It's interesting negotiating tactics, but she's an epic level rogue, enough ranks in sense motive probably give her an edge here. (And epic ability scores). Does make me think she has something shocking to say, something that you'd want your aid to be incapacitated to tell them.

I'm so hyped for the next book, there are so many powers at play, but it's also not too convoluted. I understand the main players and their motives, so I'm glad to see some mystery that I can speculate on.

[CriticalFailure]

I got no fricking clue what’s going on, I’m glad the paladins still live, and everyone one of you owes my money cause I knew TE wouldn’t find the gate.

I wonder if their next appearance will show them figuring out they've been tricked. I think Redcloak will flip.

[gatemansgc]

the giant does something out of left field as always! completely subverting expectations and that's why we love his writing style! once we get the context next year it's gonna make complete sense in hindsight. possibly related to what the IFCC was talking about a few comics ago.

is the site lagging for anyone else?

[Syncrogti]

Crazy stuff, I can't even tell what's going on here but it is definitely a cliffhanger.



is the site lagging for anyone else? Yes, me too.

[Particle_Man]

I wonder if they are from the world inside the Snarl?

And love the literal cliff hanger.

[The1exile]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this mysterious duo might be Enor and Gannji (the half dragon and lizard from the arena). Able to fly, one wisecracker who doesn't have a complete grasp on the fine details and another who's quieter and happy to follow orders. Plus, if we're into the last book, it'd be a good way to loop round to Elan's anti-Tarquin plan that they're supposedly helping Ian with... and Tarquin is pro-reality.

[gatemansgc]

Crazy stuff, I can't even tell what's going on here but it is definitely a cliffhanger.


Yes, me too.

omg you're right, it IS a LITERAL cliffhanger!

i'm getting 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable errors now. i'm guessing because people actually knew the comic was coming today instead of people randomly checking, everyone came on at once.

[Canisius]

Wait and see indeed! And now two months of wild speculation!

Have a nice vacation Rich - I think it'll give me time to re-read the comic from the beginning. =)

[Peelee]

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!

I was definitely not expecting that. Imean, I don't know for sure what I was expecting... But it wasn't that. Whoever this is, they definitely want the paladins alive.

[jwhouk]

First reaction: Oh, bleep.

Second reaction: 100 quataloos on IFCC.

[2D8HP]

I'm just so happy to see Greyiew again!



http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Greyview_zps9fbqsycv.png

[gatemansgc]

...what?!

I don't...

Apparently there's one more whole side in play that we had no idea about?
And what do they mean in the last panel?!

Great cliffhanger.

the demon roaches said in the margins that there's 9 distinct sides in this conflict and according to the OOTS wiki (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Nine_sides), we've only found out 7 for sure (with a few others speculative but not surely. though this page hasn't been edited since 2017, hel is probably her own faction for sure). this appears to be an 8th!

[CriticalFailure]

It seems unlikely that they came through the rift, since as far as we know this one is still closed.

Though it would be a major twist if this gate had secretly been open the whole time. It's possible that if Kraagor got trapped on the other side, Sereni and perhaps some other scribblers may have conspired to obscure the rift with the tomb and reopen it to try to find Kraagor on the other side, on the assumption that there was no way the other four gates would be compromised. That would really throw a wrench in things.

[gatemansgc]

Say whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!

I was definitely not expecting that. Imean, I don't know for sure what I was expecting... But it wasn't that. Whoever this is, they definitely want the paladins alive.

i was gonna make a cliffhanger speculation thread but i procrastinated and never ended up doing it. had i done that i bet nobody would have guessed this!

[MReav]

What the hell kind of poison does it take to knock out O-Chul? He's a multiclass Fighter/Paladin, meaning he's got extra good Fort Saves and Class Level And Geekery puts his Con at 25 (I assume his Divine Grace isn't applicable). He's got a beastly Fort save even if we assume he doesn't have any extra feats or magical Save boosting items.

[Grey Watcher]

Did you... did you just give us a cliffhanger by taking characters away from a cliff?

As for the identity of our Mystery Voices, my money's on Serini Toormuck and an apprentice of hers. In this theory, she's not so much for destroying the world, but is considering the classic Destroy the Gate to Keep Anyone from Messing with It move. She's no doubt suspicious, since it looks to her like Soon's heirs broke his oath (and I somehow doubt she'll accept Hinjo's technicality that, without a Gate to guard, the Sapphire Guard and its oaths are dissolved). She might have been willing to leave them be if all they were doing was observing, but they just said reinforcements are coming....

[Mad Humanist]

Okay obviously now we need to start a whole thread dedicated to exploring who the coloured speech bubbles belong to. I wonder how many incarnations that thread will go through.

[catagent101]

I think they are some yet unknown agents of the IFCC. Six comics before this we got a cutscene to the IFCC saying that they're going to get they're "followers' hands dirty" and then we get this. It seems strategically placed to tell us that this is what is going on, or at least be a really misleading red herring.


Also, are O-Chul and Lien tied to the cliff somehow or are these unknown persons carrying them upwards? I first thought the former, but the latter seems more likely to me now.
EDIT: Yeah, they are pretty definitely being carried.

[Anitar]

A being associated with green-ness, who has a role to play in the last book (but no sooner) and very unclear motives...

Yeah, sounds like Redcloak's niece to me.

[Azazyll]

I wonder if they are from the world inside the Snarl?

And love the literal cliff hanger.

I agree that these are almost certainly have something to do with the mystery of the true reality of the Snarl, and therefore no matter how much we guess, we cannot know who they are (or at least their true motivations). We are instead being introduced to a new faction, perhaps connected to old figures (maybe Serini later discovered the truth about the Snarl, for instance), who will be essential to the final book of the comic's overall arc, rather than primarily pointing back to what we have seen previously.

[Sniccups]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this mysterious duo might be Enor and Gannji (the half dragon and lizard from the arena). Able to fly, one wisecracker who doesn't have a complete grasp on the fine details and another who's quieter and happy to follow orders. Plus, if we're into the last book, it'd be a good way to loop round to Elan's anti-Tarquin plan that they're supposedly helping Ian with... and Tarquin is pro-reality.

I really don't think it is. For one, neither would call the other "boss".

[Draconi Redfir]

My guess is our invisible friends are some kind of gate-guardians protecting the final gate. that's why "Existing" was fun while it lasted, they were probably created to protect the gate, and will cease existing if it gets destroyed.

possibly trying to forcibly recruit the paladins to help them. hard to say.

[PrismCat21]

Well... Feb. 3rd is my birthday, so I guess that'll be a pretty good gift for me :)
I'm going to go with some sort of caretakers for the final Gate and all the besties protecting it. Someone needs to be there to maintain the balance of beasties and make sure they don't just wipe each other out.

Thanks for the big final page of the book Giant!

[Psychronia]

Quite a way to end a book.

Well, the MitD's little ploy is somewhat backfiring, it seems. Well, unless Xykon somehow actually dies because of it.
Regarding the voices, I'm gonna say...something with Serini?

[Analytica]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this mysterious duo might be Enor and Gannji (the half dragon and lizard from the arena). Able to fly, one wisecracker who doesn't have a complete grasp on the fine details and another who's quieter and happy to follow orders. Plus, if we're into the last book, it'd be a good way to loop round to Elan's anti-Tarquin plan that they're supposedly helping Ian with... and Tarquin is pro-reality.

This is my belief also.

[Vingelot]

Well, the MitD's little ploy is somewhat backfiring, it seems. Well, unless Xykon somehow actually dies because of it.

But he's making a valiant effort to remain unexposed, at least :smallbiggrin: chop chop

[Themrys]

I say it's elves.

Those arrows they attacked with? Arrowhead shape, just like stone arrowheads farmers found in the middle ages and called "elf arrows".

Using sort-of-lies by implying something that they go back on, but avoiding to outright state a lie? Check.

Invisible and unwilling to be seen by humans? Check.

More spirit than human - see speech bubbles.

I would be very disappointed if this wasn't a mysterous tribe based on the historical beliefs about elves, belonging to a previous creation that was forgotten about.



Poor MitD didn't really think that through!

It would, perhaps, have been cleverer to just mark one wrong door after each excursion, and hope they don't notice they do the exact same thing again. (Didn't someone mention that the monsters respawn?)

On the other hand, if Xykon stays that stupid and doesn't notice anything, he might get himself killed, which would be a win.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I cannot believe I am the first to post this.

Dun Dun DUNNN!!

[SlashDash]

That was unexpected for sure. So many potential "bam" ending he could have tossed - and he found something even better!

I didn't consider the possibility that Redcloak would do the math and realize something is off with the doors. Very cool indeed.




My guess is that these are completely new people. They have nothing to do with Serini, the IFCC and whatever.

They are entirely something new.

Can't help but wonder, did they wait until now for some reason? Was the sending their trigger? Cause Lien said the Oots was coming in 2 days. Perhaps they wanted to know more about them?



I also found it hilarious that they basically took down the paladins cause they're invisible. When Haley was ranting about everyone they face having invisibility purge.

[Edric O]

Huh. That's not the cliffhanger I expected. I expected that Xykon would find the gate...

[Edward15]

Got to say, that wasn't how I thought the book would end. I was expecting the final strip to feature Xykon and his team discovering the Gate (despite the MitD's efforts), and ready to begin their plan. After all, nothing sets up the excitement of the final book more than the main villain being trumphant.

Also, I do hope the bonus features in the coming book explain why the Sphinx Pox was mentioned it it wasn't going to play any part.

[The Shadow]

I don't think these guys are related to any side we've heard of yet. They seem to be outsiders, so maybe some of them have gotten suspicious about the memory wipes?

[Windscion]

I do not believe this is IFCC. They said that Sabine will return with a suitable vessel, probably Haley's father (because Sabine hates Haley), but numerous other possibilities exist, like the angry envoy lady who wants Tarquin dead.

Also, their speach doesn't point to any established factions.

So a new faction is quite likely -- we haven't identified them all. But it might be an old new faction, i.e., serini.

Hard to see how the planet in the rifts could have agents without at least the gods noticing. But then, that planet is a mystery wrapped in an enigma to begin with. The best guess I have it that it is somehow related to the Dark One's new quiddity leaking into the rifts and being shaped by previous creations. Which suggests that the Dark One and Redcloak can be circumvented if the other pantheon's figure all this out.

Addendum: Or the planet is a side effect of the epic magic which formed the gates. Fortunately, the epic arcane caster and divine caster (Durokan and the druid lady) who created the gates are available, insofar as their souls are trapped in Xykon's gem.

[Fish]

What things do we know are color-coded, other than this? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)

[NobleCuriosity]

I think “minions of IFCC” is the most likely of the speculations I’ve seen thus far. (Of course, they could be someone entirely new).

Reviewing some of the subtler things we know about these GB (Green Bubble) and OB (Orange Bubble):

1) They waited until Lien got the sending from Varsuuvius (and replied) to attack, even though O-chul and Lien have been camped there for quite a while. Why would Serini/Eastern gods/whatever have waited? And they did wait—hence the “finally doing this” thing. IFCC would expect there likely is an incoming sending, and could plausibly want Oots to believe Lien and Ochul were okay, and get them to come to a specific location, or something like that.
2) GB expects this will lead to their non-existence. IFCC seems to want to destroy the world.
3) GB and OB don’t seem to think the paladins would be easy for them to beat in a fair fight, or even an unfair one where the paladins are forewarned but they are still invisible. Why? a) If they did, they could have waited until Xykon and co. went back inside (and then not risk being spotted by the Lich) to attack O-chul and Lien; instead, they used the possibility of getting spotted by Xykon to coerce the paladins into coming quietly. b) They were worried the poisons would be insufficient. That implies that it’s a problem for them if the poisons don't down the paladins. That pretty immediately rules out Serini herself or any kind of god for me—those would be too strong for this to make sense.
4) They knew Lien and O-chul were paladins before Lien mentions it. I wouldn’t expect random northern creatures to know about the Sapphire guard. IFCC definitely has the scrying punch to figure that out easily, but admittedly a number of other sides could as well.
5) OB enthusiastically calls GB “boss.” This rules our Enor and Gannji for me (also, aren’t they still doing pro bono work in the desert?), as well as any other equal “partnership” we already know of (like Tarquin’s team, for example).
6) Based on the second to last panel, they either fly or are really good climbers. That plus the speech balloons suggest they aren’t humanoids.


More forthcoming as I notice them.

[The MunchKING]

I wonder what they meant with "That could've gone better"?

The faster they could get everybody with Neutralize Poison the less damage it will do to their systems. So if they could have immediately talked Lin into surrendering, or better yet she hadn't blocked their second dart, they could have wrapped this up a lot faster and without long-term poison damage to their paladins.



"[Existing was] fun while it lasted" doesn't necessarily mean that's the end of the world is what they want, might be simply what they expect at this point.

Or they assume getting involved in this mess will lead to their non-existence regardless of the rest of the worlds fate. like say Outsiders that merge back with the Plane if they die (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html).


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this mysterious duo might be Enor and Gannji (the half dragon and lizard from the arena). Able to fly, one wisecracker who doesn't have a complete grasp on the fine details and another who's quieter and happy to follow orders.

Only Gangor had weird speech Bubbles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0714.html), and they didn't look anything like the ones in this comic.

[Deuce]

I say it's elves.

Those arrows they attacked with? Arrowhead shape, just like stone arrowheads farmers found in the middle ages and called "elf arrows".

Using sort-of-lies by implying something that they go back on, but avoiding to outright state a lie? Check.

Invisible and unwilling to be seen by humans? Check.

More spirit than human - see speech bubbles.

I would be very disappointed if this wasn't a mysterous tribe based on the historical beliefs about elves, belonging to a previous creation that was forgotten about.



Poor MitD didn't really think that through!

It would, perhaps, have been cleverer to just mark one wrong door after each excursion, and hope they don't notice they do the exact same thing again. (Didn't someone mention that the monsters respawn?)

On the other hand, if Xykon stays that stupid and doesn't notice anything, he might get himself killed, which would be a win.

That description would work for some powerful group of Fae as well. Siele Court?

[Elenna]

....soooo many questions...

[CriticalFailure]

I didn't consider the possibility that Redcloak would do the math and realize something is off with the doors. Very cool indeed.


I thought one of the possibilities for the ending might be Redcloak/Team Evil working out that something is off with the doors. I thought the part with Redcloak complaining about not being systematic was hinting that he would.

[Vingelot]

Also, I do hope the bonus features in the coming book explain why the Sphinx Pox was mentioned it it wasn't going to play any part.

I guess it was only mentioned for the sake of joking that it doesn't love Hel enough. Then the internet wouldn't shut up about it.

[KatsOfLoathing]

Thank you, Giant, for that literal cliffhanger ending.

As for the identity of these two assailants... lots to consider here. Put together, their tactics and speech bubbles don't correlate easily to any preexisting faction we know of except maybe the Vector Legion, and taking prisoners doesn't really feel like the VL's style. Colored speech bubbles usually means Outsider, but we've seen exceptions to that before (Enor, Not-Thad, the frost giants), so it could mean anything, really.

I'm inclined to believe these two are Serini and an ally, or two of her allies. She's the only major player left in this conflict left more-or-less unaccounted for, and we're really deep in the plot to have an entirely new faction pop out of nowhere, especially since many of the comic's previous arc villains (Bozzok, the Vector Legion, Hel) were all noticeably foreshadowed in previous arcs, while I can't think of anything that would indicate who these two are. The ambush tactics used here are also fitting for what an epic-level rogue would probably try against two high-level paladins she'd want to take alive.

So if this is Serini... what on earth happened to her in the decades since the Order fell apart? I've seen her alignment pegged as LG before (since she had considered multiclassing into Paladin, unless that was just a gag), and this scene is definitely on the Chaotic and non-Good side of things. That last comment about not existing anymore definitely has multiple interpretations too, none of them very good for our heroes.

February can't come soon enough.

[TriciaOso]

Also, I do hope the bonus features in the coming book explain why the Sphinx Pox was mentioned it it wasn't going to play any part.

The first reference was intended make it clear that after the giants, Hel was very nearly out of tricks--important to communicate when your antagonist is a god. It also was used to set up a joke about Hel's childishness.

Rich then felt obligated to wrap it up because he knew that the fandom would never stop theorizing about it if he didn't.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

These guys could be the forces of chaos/order/neutrality/some other force of nature kind of thing. Most of the weird speech bubbles so far are I think outsiders or otherwise not entirely living people of some sort.

But I don't have a good guess at what they might want or how or why.

I am putting my money on the long shot though: I say this is the faction that's going to kill Belkar. :smallcool:

[Ghosty]

That's an impressive poison if it can get through O'Chul's ridiculous Con score AND paladin resistance

"Paging Security Officer Worf. Security Officer Worf to the Plot Climax immediately."...

I didn't think O-Chul even had a Fortitude save. It just says "Yes, he made it."

[Psyren]

Serini was a Good character, correct? Poisoning, betraying your words, and throw two unconscious bodies doesn't look like a decent act.

Con poison certainly isn't decent, but that could have easily been a bluff; Con poison doesn't usually knock people out. The two times we've seen it used in OotS (Therkla and Elan), the subject stayed conscious while dying.

As for throwing them, I think they were being carried off by their invisible assailants, not being dropped. "Grab those two" doesn't fit with just chucking them off the cliff, and the voice was coming from midair somewhere near them.

Betraying your words is Chaotic, so I covered that.


I would rule out Eastern Gods too, too much deus-ex-machina and quite a stretch believing the other pantheons would not feel them.

Agreed - not only would they have to somehow go unnoticed by all the other gods, but that would imply they've survived, with absolutely no worship, for aeons. It's too much.

[Sapphire Guard]

Huh. That's interesting. Taking down O Chul isn't your average poison. But Lien could make the block. So not so high level as to be way beyond them.

[Ghosty]

I thought one of the possibilities for the ending might be Redcloak/Team Evil working out that something is off with the doors. I thought the part with Redcloak complaining about not being systematic was hinting that he would.

What if RC figures out he got tricked? Would they blame the MITD? Or might they think that Oona was doing it instead? Xykon and RedCloak both usually underestimate the MITD, might they do it again? Maybe thinking that Oona is trying to conserve the monsters in the tomb, as her tribe relies on them for goods?

[Petrocorus]

Only Gangor had weird speech Bubbles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0714.html), and they didn't look anything like the ones in this comic.

Actually, the pattern is similar. Dark colour for the bubble and the letters, lighter shade of same colour for the bubble's background.

Could this be half-dragon agents of Tiamat?

[Ghosty]

...Agreed - not only would they have to somehow go unnoticed by all the other gods, but that would imply they've survived, with absolutely no worship, for aeons. It's too much.

The Snarl killed the Eastern Pantheon's Gods. But did it kill all of their servants and hangers-on? Demigod entities like Hercules or Ganymede? Maybe it's one of those kind of Outsiders?

The speech bubble looked similar to the illusory Planetar summoned for the trial in Azure City. Not identical, obviously.

[Lord Torath]

O'Chul and Lien are clearly being carried in the last panel: their arms and capes are dangling below them, and if they were falling, air resistance would lave arms and capes trailing their falling bodies, not leading them.

Also, after carefully checking Green Bubble's speech bubble coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html), I'm firmly convinced it's a carrion crawler (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html). The speech bubbles match perfectly!

(Okay, no, they don't. Not perfectly. And I have never heard of carrion crawlers utilizing paralyzing darts, especially when their tentacles already paralyze at a touch.) :smalltongue:

[The MunchKING]

The Snarl killed the Eastern Pantheon's Gods. But did it kill all of their servants and hangers-on? Demigod entities like Hercules or Ganymede? Maybe it's one of those kind of Outsiders?

They mind-wipe those to prevent any sort of residual loyalty.

[CriticalFailure]

What if RC figures out he got tricked? Would they blame the MITD? Or might they think that Oona was doing it instead? Xykon and RedCloak both usually underestimate the MITD, might they do it again? Maybe thinking that Oona is trying to conserve the monsters in the tomb, as her tribe relies on them for goods?

Yeah I was thinking that might happen, since she has told them she wants to preserve the monsters so the clan can keep relying on him. I was thinking that they might turn on her, and it would lead to either them killing her or the MiTD confessing so that Oona doesn't get blamed for what he did.

[Edric O]

I just realized something. Why is O-Chul concerned with finding the gate at all? The Order isn't coming to find the gate, they're coming to defeat Xykon. Presumably, if everything went well, the plan would have been for the Order, Lien and O-Chul to set up some kind of surprise attack on Team Evil, without bothering with the gate at all. Right?

[Edward15]

Huh. That's not the cliffhanger I expected. I expected that Xykon would find the gate...
So was I. Since it would take Xykon and Redcloak weeks to complete their ritual, I figured that Roy and the others would have enough time to reach Kraggor's Tomb in time even if the book end with Xykon being victorious in discovering the gate. And since we're heading into the final book, I figured nothing would set up the excitement better than the main villain being on the verge of victory.

[Petrocorus]

So far, the hypothesis on Those GuysTM are:
- Serini or her agents.
- IFCC.
- Some agents of the Snarl.
- Fey.
- Some gods.
- A completely new side.
- Redcloak's niece.

The last one being obviously the most realistic.

[The MunchKING]

I just realized something. Why is O-Chul concerned with finding the gate at all? The Order isn't coming to find the gate, they're coming to defeat Xykon. Presumably, if everything went well, the plan would have been for the Order, Lien and O-Chul to set up some kind of surprise attack on Team Evil, without bothering with the gate at all. Right?

Well they are fighting to defend the Gate, last dungeon the plan was to summon a bunch of Celestials to help them defend the Gate.

[The Pilgrim]

That's a Cliffhanger, if I've ever seen one.

[Quizatzhaderac]

What if RC figures out he got tricked? Would they blame the MITD? Or might they think that Oona was doing it instead? He might blame Serini.

She has no reason not to trick people coming for the gate, and she certainly cold have just closed the path actually leading to the gate with a plain looking cliff face.

I guess the diary might have mentioned that, but it obviously didn't mention how to efficiently find the gate.

[Themrys]

O'Chul and Lien are clearly being carried in the last panel: their arms and capes are dangling below them, and if they were falling, air resistance would lave arms and capes trailing their falling bodies, not leading them.


Did anyone question that?

I may not be a certified bardic genius, but even I can tell that Lien surrendering was the right decision. She made it on the basis that it is what O-Chul would have done. Against her gut feeling.

There may be stories where doing what the good and noble paladin would have done, and where that is surrendering instead of attacking, would lead to getting them both killed, but I am pretty sure this is not that story. We are not in Game of Thrones here.

Perhaps they wake up as prisoners and have to figure out their escape, but in that case it will be revealed that Lien would have had no chance on her own / could have saved herself but not O-chul if she had fought.

Or perhaps those invisible entities are their allies and just don't want to be seen for ... some reason. Perhaps they are Always Evil beings who decided to not be evil and are afraid of paladins, or whatever.

In any case, I am pretty sure Lien made the right decision. If she just had let herself be blackmailed into surrendering to save O-Chul, she might be wrong, but certainly not after thinking about what the most paladin-y thing to do would be.

@Deuce: There are Fae in D&D world? I only have superficial knowledge of D&D ... IF there ARE fae, and the Giant doesn't even have to add them ... that makes that more likely.

[AvangionQ]

Been so long since the main storyline progressed that I'm going to need to go back a bit to reread a few panels ... catch up

PS, nice birthday gift (Feb 3rd, I turn 45)

[SlashDash]

What things do we know are color-coded, other than this? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)

The spirit of Soon had similar colors. Also the Chlorine elemental that Redcloak summoned had something similar.

I don't think think we can jump to any conclusions as of now.

[Ruck]

Betraying your words is Chaotic, so I covered that.

They haven't betrayed their words (obviously if they don't give O-Chul the antidote, that changes). Indeed, they've stuck to exactly what they promised and no more-- I find them more Lawful Evil than Chaotic, if we're speculating with this scant evidence.


Only Gangor had weird speech Bubbles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0714.html), and they didn't look anything like the ones in this comic.

"Gangor" is a new one; I like to imagine Enor and Gannji fusing into some bounty super-hunter.


omg you're right, it IS a LITERAL cliffhanger!

i'm getting 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable errors now. i'm guessing because people actually knew the comic was coming today instead of people randomly checking, everyone came on at once.

I was getting some of these starting last night, too.

(Also, I obviated the "randomly checking" problem by setting my phone up to send me an alert whenever Rich tweets, because it's usually that a new comic is up.)

About this comic in particular: I was right on the Sending, wrong on the cliffhanger. These new characters don't strike me as allying with anyone we've met previously... I have reservations about introducing a new side to the story this late in the game, since extra branches on the story tree should be paring down as we approach the climax. That said, as always, I'm going to reserve judgment until we see how it plays out. Given that there's still information we don't know about the Snarl or the nature of the planet inside it we saw, my first guess is that whoever this side is is connected to it in a way that can provide us that information.

Also, I freaked out a little when I read the return date was February 3, 2020, then I realized it's already December. This year has flown by.

[Roland Itiative]

Talk about a cliffhanger. Elan is probably feeling so proud, even without knowing why, right now :smalltongue:

So, our new characters want the world to be destroyed, huh. Or at least think it's inevitable at this point. I wonder if the green one is Serini herself, or someone aligned with her.

[Fish]

There’s a greeny-colored one that’s in charge and a reddish-orangey one who obeys and calls him “boss.”

Clearly: it’s Kermit and Scooter.

I think we can all rest easy now.

[Themrys]

They haven't betrayed their words (obviously if they don't give O-Chul the antidote, that changes). Indeed, they've stuck to exactly what they promised and no more-- I find them more Lawful Evil than Chaotic, if we're speculating with this scant evidence.


So we are speculating with scant evidence? In this case ...

Narrative convention implies that they are probably not evil. Lien decided to surrender and avoid confrontation. People being taught the lesson that they ought to be less trusting usually happens in much darker stories. (Okay, yes, Celia ... but she was portrayed as being very obviously very naive, and she didn't think things through)

My guess is that they are very paranoid and therefore want to neither show the paladins what they themselves look like, nor where their hideout is ... because they have no intention of killing them.

... of course, since they seem to think they are as good as dead, I am not sure why they would think it would matter.



The Serini theory fits with it (somewhat) since Tolkien's hobbits, on which halflings are based, are based on the Fair Folk legends of the British Isles.

And the strangers seem to be rather small and weak - it looks like they just grabbed O-Chuls feet, and perhaps just one of Lien's feet, and they clearly don't think they can best Lien and O-Chul in a fight.
Halflings can't usually fly, though.

[NobleCuriosity]

Since my original post seems to have been lost in the deluge, I’d like to ask about one specific point from it that particularly bugs me that I don’t see anybody else mentioning:

Why did they wait for Lien to get and reply to the sending? O-chul and Lien have been there a long time already.

This is one of the things that makes me think IFCC minions, as they would know the sending was coming, and also plausibly want the Oots to come in uninformed of the kidnapping to the wrong space or something, and also have no reason to kidnap before now (chance of Hel doing their work for them).

[D.One]

WOW! :smalleek:

WOW!!! :eek:

So the Sending was to Lien and O-Chul, not any of the other hypothesis we've got.

And RC notices there are many doors marked... but isn't suspecting foul play, since he believes they actually investigated all those doors. (MitD should probably stop marking extra doors, since he knows RC has counted the number of marked doors, which could lead to him perceiving more doors than the amount they explored have been marked)

And the ending... Really WOW!

How can I sanelly wait until February? :frown:

Congrats, Giant, That was one Hel of Cliffhanger!

There was even a cliff and hanging... :smallbiggrin:

PS: Who are the mistery voices? I call then Invisible Flying Evil Ninjas, IFENs for short. (I'd bet they are connected to IFCC due to the different speech balloons, but they might also be in service of another of the "destroy the world gods).

[Frozenstep]

Wow this website is lagging today.

Anyway, Serini built the defenses of this gate based on what Kraggor believed in...or at least, that's what we're told. Wouldn't it be just like a rogue to set up a flank sneak attack when they've got something else to distract their enemies? Maybe it isn't Serini herself, but something she's set up, but still.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Digging these speech bubbles. I imagine from their potentially evil nature and explaining the situation to Lien, these are either Neutral or Lawful evil fiends, working for the IFCC. "It's been good" "what?" "Existing." Pretty much seals the IFCC's goal.

The hype for book 7 is high for me. If Xykon found the gate at the end of this book then there would be no tension. We know the mechane will get there just in the nick of time. Now, we don't know when the nick of time is.

Looking forward to it!

[D.One]

Everybody is talking Serini, and it makes some sense that she would prepare some Roguish defense team for her Gate, but I've thought of something else:

I don't remember quite now all the specifics we have on Familicide, but wouldn't be possible for some branch of Draketooth family to have survived, maybe some branch that was separated from the others by an already dead relative?

I'm asking this because the pair the abducted Lien and O-Chul clearly had magical powers.

[Faramir]

All the sensible theories have already been posted so I'll go with - the MitD's parents. They have finally intervened because they are afraid for their son's life if Xykon figures out the extra Xs.


Okay, my real vote goes to someone/thing from the planet inside the Snarl. And they've been in this world from before the first Gates were built.

[Yirggzmb]

So, our new characters want the world to be destroyed, huh. Or at least think it's inevitable at this point.

Another possibility I see is that they are some sort of spirit/magical creation/etc that only exists until a certain task is completed. The comment about "existing being nice while it lasted" flowing immediately after the one about "so we're finally doing this" leads me in that direction anyway.

[NobleCuriosity]

Unrelated to my previous discussion of GB and OB’s identities:

Wow, they really have accelerated the search. Back when we saw them delving in 1041 ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html), Redcloak was arguing against merely doing a SECOND door in one day. Now he’s trying to do SIX.

Also I guess it makes sense that Lien didn’t prepare delay poison today. (Or is she less than 8th level?).

[hamishspence]

Digging these speech bubbles. I imagine from their potentially evil nature and explaining the situation to Lien, these are either Neutral or Lawful evil fiends, working for the IFCC. "It's been good" "what?" "Existing." Pretty much seals the IFCC's goal.

Fiends with coloured background bubbles rather than black background bubbles exist

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html

but that doesn't mean these are fiends. Plenty of beings have had coloured backgrounds for their text. Coloured text on coloured background though, has often occurred with non-fiends - for example, frost giants (blue on blue).

[Petrocorus]

How can I sanelly wait until February? :frown:


Yeah, what am i going to do with my life in the meantime?

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Okay, my real vote goes to someone/thing from the planet inside the Snarl. And they've been in this world from before the first Gates were built.

Oooo, that's interesting. They do have completely separately colored bubbles, including Green which could mean something if it's involved with the Snarl.

My vote is still with the IFCC.

The order: wants to save the world permanently
RC: wants to pressure the gods into making the world better for the goblins
IFCC: conflict, but with the meaning that they can have an alliance between fiend types.

[Sonata Arctica]

A invisibility not so great that can e smelt by bugbears, a poison so great to take out O-Chul one hit.
I'd be surprised if that's not Serini Toormuck.
But why would she want to cease existing?

Also, how long will it take for Redcloak to realize NONE of the doors contains the gate?
Serini was a Rogue, that is obviously a con.
It is probably hding somewhere else, like Kraagor's monument.

[Sniccups]

Wow, they really have accelerated the search. Back when we saw them delving in 1041 ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html), Redcloak was arguing against merely doing a SECOND door in one day. Now he’s trying to do SIX.


I wonder if Xykon gained a level.

[Doug Lampert]

It's the Ninth Side: Right-Eye's daughter and Fyron's son.

Well, everyone is Red Cloak's niece, so that's obvious, but good catch on Fyron's son.


A being associated with green-ness, who has a role to play in the last book (but no sooner) and very unclear motives...

Yeah, sounds like Redcloak's niece to me.

Bingo.


So far, the hypothesis on Those GuysTM are:
- Serini or her agents.
- IFCC.
- Some agents of the Snarl.
- Fey.
- Some gods.
- A completely new side.
- Redcloak's niece.

The last one being obviously the most realistic.

It's the only logical possibility, except....


There’s a greeny-colored one that’s in charge and a reddish-orangey one who obeys and calls him “boss.”

Clearly: it’s Kermit and Scooter.

I think we can all rest easy now.

This one. Which also makes perfect sense compared to most forum theories.

More seriously,

(1) They are trying to take the paladin's alive, this probably means that they think their goals may be compatible with the paladins' goal and they may be able to arrange a deal. They could trivially have killed the paladins in their sleep or something, this is not a necessarily hostile faction.

(2) They are in fact attacking the Paladins, this means they thought showing up and talking was non-viable. They are not obviously friendly.

(3) Nothing we have seen them do is incompatible with a lawful alignment, they were completely truthful. It could also be neutral or chaotic.

(4) On the good-evil axis, to make a judgement we'd need to know what they'd have done if Lien had refused to surrender and they'd been unable to take her out. Basically, we don't yet know squat about their alignment.

(5) Green bubble tells orange bubble to "Grab them," implying that one of them is carrying both paladins. But the paladins are shown as a substantial distance apart and aren't light, so orange bubble is probably large or bigger. Giants, dragons, half dragons, and outsiders all have colored speech bubbles, so this doesn't tell us all that much, but probably at least one is a big member of an "exotic" race.

(6) They expect to cease existing soon. This could be because they are linked to the gate, or because they are linked to the world, or because they expect to do something suicidal, but this implies outsiders as death for a living creature isn't to cease existing.

So, outsiders, at least one big, would be my bet. The Lammasu is large, and gets greater invisibility 2/day as a spell-like, that's the only creature I can find with a spell-like greater invisibility, and it has claws that wouldn't be good at gripping. But it could be someone who simply knows the spell or a naturally invisible creature like an invisible stalker. Invisibility is probably a clue, but it's not a great one.

[Pampukin]

I think “minions of IFCC” is the most likely of the speculations I’ve seen thus far. (Of course, they could be someone entirely new).

Reviewing some of the subtler things we know about these GB (Green Bubble) and OB (Orange Bubble):

1. They waited until Lien got the sending from Varsuuvius (and replied) to attack, even though O-chul and Lien have been camped there for quite a while. Why would Serini/Eastern gods/whatever have waited? and they did wait—hence the “finally doing this” thing. IFCC would expect there likely is an incoming sending, and could plausibly want Oots to believe Lien and Ochul were okay, and get them to come to a specific location, or something like that.
2. GB expects this will lead to their non-existence. IFCC seems to want to destroy the world.
3. GB and OB don’t seem to think the paladins would be easy for them to beat in a fair fight, or even an unfair one where the paladins are forewarned but they are still invisible. Why? 1) If they did, they could have waited until Xykon and co. went back inside (and then not risk being spotted by the Lich) to attack O-chul and Lien; instead, they used the possibility of getting spotted by Xykon to coerce the paladins into coming quietly. 2) They were worried the poisons would be insufficient. that implies it’s a problem for them if the poisons aren’t. That pretty immediately rules out Serini herself or any kind of god for me—those would be too strong for this to make sense.
4) They knew Lien and O-chul were paladins (Before Lien mentions it). I wouldn’t expect random northern creatures to know about the Sapphire guard. IFCC definitely has the scrying punch to figure that out easily, but admittedly a number of other sides could as well.
5) OB enthusiastically calls GB “boss.” This rules our Enor and Gannji for me (also, aren’t they still doing pro bono work in the desert?), as well as any other equal “partnership” we already know of (like Tarquin’s team, for example).
6) Based on the second to last panel, they either fly or are really good climbers. That plus the speech balloons suggests they aren’t human.


More forthcoming as I notice them.

1. Maybe they figured since reinforcements would be incoming this was the last chance to have a peacefull conversation with the paladins, they probably are chaotic and chaotic being dont like to deal with lawfuls unless its from a position of power, since like Hayley once said, they tend to impose their views on others.
2. It has been theorized that their existence could be tied to either the gate, or the world within the rift. Maybe OB is pessimistic about the chances to contain the snarl and expects this is all futile.
3. I generally agree that they waited for the perfect moment, but I would add that maybe they can win but in direct combat could not without injury on some of the involved, either them or the paladins, plus this timing also helps if Xykon does notice, he and his party is somewhat depleted and escaping might be more likely.
4. It does depend on how much they have been listening to the other two, Lien and O´Chull joke a lot about being paladins, also probably cast spells and pray a lot, so it could have been an informed guess.
5.I agree those two are not in on this.
6. I also noticed they seem to be carrying the duo by their feet, but holding their weapons pretty far from them, so that suggests at least some size/strength involved.


My quatloos are on some of the inhabitants of the tomb, some sort of monster that lives there, and will cease existing because the magic that replenishes the monsters in the tomb will go out if the gate is destroyed/opened/tampered with.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Okay, my real vote goes to someone/thing from the planet inside the Snarl. And they've been in this world from before the first Gates were built.

That might actually be pretty close. The "existing was fun" comment could indicate that these are creatures that have somehow experienced not existing, starting out outside existence, but then literally coming into existence through a rift.

I mean, Serini is just too big another shoe that hasn't been dropped yet, she almost needs to appear in the final book. But if these are extra-existential beings, that was a great line for not quite giving it away.

Plus the planet in the rift is if possible an even bigger shoe yet to be dropped. Why have a planet but no creatures?

Might it even tie into the Mitd's species somehow? The monster is definitely not something completely unknown in the primary world, but it still seems pretty exotic. So there could be some kind of interplay with misterious visitors from another world. That might also make it make sense that the monster is good but didn't know it yet.

[Pampukin]

Whats the exact timetable here? Wasnt the first party that fought the snarl a few generations ago? I forget how much halflings live, but I dont remember them to be as long lived as elves or dwarfs right? I dont think Serini can be alive, and if she is and has aged would be a decrepit lady by now wouldnt she? I mean Shojo was very old and he inherited the sapphire guard from Soons aprentice didnt he?

[Fish]

I get the feeling that Kermit and Scooter have been waiting a long time to do whatever it is they’re doing, and that their existence is somehow conditional — they finish the job and then they stop existing, or something.

Maybe Serini went to the Oracle and asked what kind of defenses she’d need, and set these guys up.

[Ruck]

Whats the exact timetable here? Wasnt the first party that fought the snarl a few generations ago? I forget how much halflings live, but I dont remember them to be as long lived as elves or dwarfs right? I dont think Serini can be alive, and if she is and has aged would be a decrepit lady by now wouldnt she? I mean Shojo was very old and he inherited the sapphire guard from Soons aprentice didnt he?

I want to say, offhand, that it was 66 years ago, and halflings live longer than humans but not as long as elves.

[Mad Humanist]

I get the feeling that Kermit and Scooter have been waiting a long time to do whatever it is they’re doing, and that their existence is somehow conditional — they finish the job and then they stop existing, or something.

Maybe Serini went to the Oracle and asked what kind of defenses she’d need, and set these guys up.

Seriously I actually find that theory quite plausible. Not Kermit and Scooter specifically but that Serini arranged for some extra-planar creatures to be conjured into existence as part of her defence.

I also think it is significant that the attack started when O-Chul was about to suggest hunting for the gate themselves. Maybe if he had kept quiet they would not have needed to do it.

[Ruck]

So we are speculating with scant evidence? In this case ...

Narrative convention implies that they are probably not evil. Lien decided to surrender and avoid confrontation. People being taught the lesson that they ought to be less trusting usually happens in much darker stories. (Okay, yes, Celia ... but she was portrayed as being very obviously very naive, and she didn't think things through)

My guess is that they are very paranoid and therefore want to neither show the paladins what they themselves look like, nor where their hideout is ... because they have no intention of killing them.

... of course, since they seem to think they are as good as dead, I am not sure why they would think it would matter.



The Serini theory fits with it (somewhat) since Tolkien's hobbits, on which halflings are based, are based on the Fair Folk legends of the British Isles.

And the strangers seem to be rather small and weak - it looks like they just grabbed O-Chuls feet, and perhaps just one of Lien's feet, and they clearly don't think they can best Lien and O-Chul in a fight.
Halflings can't usually fly, though.

If they're sufficiently Lawful, they'll keep their word to administer the antidote to O-Chul even if they were Evil. That said, I don't necessarily think they are Evil, but I wouldn't bet on Chaotic, myself.

All the rest of your analysis seems to make sense to me, although if this involves Serini I don't understand why she would go this route instead of talking.

[Petrocorus]

Whats the exact timetable here? Wasnt the first party that fought the snarl a few generations ago? I forget how much halflings live, but I dont remember them to be as long lived as elves or dwarfs right? I dont think Serini can be alive, and if she is and has aged would be a decrepit lady by now wouldnt she? I mean Shojo was very old and he inherited the sapphire guard from Soons aprentice didnt he?

In 3.5, halflings age a bit slower than humans. And Serini was young at the time i believe, maybe 20ish. Like Elan and Haley. Not sure.
And IIRC, this was about 60ish years ago. So she could still be alive but quite old. About 80 to 90, which would put her in the old age category, equivalent to a human of 60 to 70.

So she could still be alive even if she doesn't do the leg work herself.

There are also several magic way to extend lifespan in 3.5, and Serini is apparently epic level, so she could have access to some.

[blunk]

It being Serini would be tried-and-true in the sense that O-Chul was just asking, "how will we know where the Gate is (and how will we get in without being spotted)?" and got interrupted by somebody who knows exactly where the Gate is and can fly invisibly. Similar to the "who did [thing]?" question immediately followed by cutting to the (seemingly unlikely) person who did [thing].

Maybe too cliché, maybe not.

EDIT: another thought: if it were anyone who didn't know where the Gate was, wouldn't kidnapping the paladins just make it more likely that Xykon would secure the Gate (or Redcloak would transport it, depending on how much the mystery attackers knew)? But "they're finally doing this" and expect to stop existing; that jibes with "now that the good guys are coming, let's sneak in to where we know where the Gate is, and destroy it... after all this time."

Only thing I can't figure out is, why would Serini be so pessimistic about the Order's chances of victory? Is it just that she's seen how facilely Team Evil has been plowing through caves of high-level monsters and figures no group of heroes could get the better of them? And even so, wouldn't it behoove her to at least "wait and see" and then destroy the Gate after Team Evil wipes the floor with the Order?

[Quinton250]

Here are a few things I thought were relevant when I read the comment (some of these have already been noted while I typed this, oh well):

-The mystery characters have been monitoring the situation long enough to know that Xykon has had multiple encounters today and that the paladins don't want him to be aware of their presence. The ambush came immediately after the sending spell, likely because that was a cue for the attackers (though it's possibly just because the narrative has shifted to the paladins now so their plot is allowed to move forward).
-It's heavily implied that the green voiced character is the one using the poison darts. The green voiced character asks the orange voiced character to grab the paladins, implying the orange voiced character is larger and stronger. Their manner of speech and the fact that the orange voiced character calls the green voiced character "Boss" makes me think that the orange voiced character fits the big dumb henchman trope.
-All three poison darts are shot at an upward trajectory. That doesn't necessary mean the character who launched them was short, they could have been flying just off the side or throwing them underhand or side arm but if they were launched while standing on the cliff and they were shot with a blowgun or thrown overhand then the person launching them was likely short.
-The green voiced character seems to have used the antidote on the paladins prior to them being carried away, based on the fact that we don't see any green bubbles. It also seems like they are bringing their weapons with them. This implies that the ambushers don't want to hurt the paladins and want them to continue to be able to fight in the future but likely didn't trust that they'd be able to approach them safely.
-The fact that the ambushers needed invisibility, poison and flying to complete the attack and had doubts about the potential of the poison working likely means they aren't especially powerful. Lien was able to block the dart meant for her and the ambusher needed to negotiate her surrender before trying to launch another dart. The ambushers are also worried about the bug bears seeing them.
-We have seen color on color speech balloons from Soon (oath ghost), Girard (desert illusion message to Soon), Empress of Blood, Enor and the Frost Giants.
-We don't know how either mystery character is flying or invisible. Is it something one or both can do on their own or are scrolls involved, we don't really know.

Here are my thoughts on who this may be:
-I don't think it's Serini. A poison attack launched from a low angle at the gate she is defending would make her a prime candidate, but if she wanted to let the snarl destroy the world (my assumption based on the existing comment), she is in control of the only gate left standing so she already had the power to achieve this.
-The IFCC recently said that their underlings will get their hands dirty and stating that the godsmoot destroying existence would have fulfilled their plan makes them a likely culprit. Sabine is acquiring a vessel and it's more likely that someone the IFCC associates with would have a colored voice than most earthly possibilities. The fact that they didn't just kill the paladins and weren't happy about how the encounter went makes me doubt that it's the IFCC a little bit though.
-It's possible that this ambush was completed in order to set the stage for a future ambush of the Order of the Stick when they arrive. They know where they will be going and they even have two paladins to use as bait if required. They needed to allow the paladins to answer the message and respond back to ensure the OOTS would come to them. This implies that the survival of the paladins wasn't because the attackers are merciful in any way, which once again doesn't fit the tone I get from the green voiced character.
-With all that said, it's obviously Red Cloak's Niece who has since become a Witch Doctor.

[hroþila]

I really like the idea of these being Serini and a buddy, or otherwise affiliated with Serini. My first idea was IFCC but I agree with whoever said they don't read as Evil to me (while an Evil being could have an Evil use for captured paladins, I don't think they would have said "That could've gone better" in that case. If the goal was just to capture them, it went perfectly. If they were hoping to avoid unnecessary hostility with a view to future cooperation, it didn't go so smoothly).

And while the dialogue might imply they're working to destroy the world, I don't think it actually says that. It's actually pretty vague. I think it's misdirection.

[ManuelSacha]

Yay, we're finally meeting Serini! Kinda. Maybe.

This.
By exclusion, it must be some kind of guardian left there by Serini, or Serini herself.
The "stop existing" part sounds like they are magically summoned entities that will stop existing after their task is completed.

[Fitzclowningham]

Some random thoughts:

If the newcomers are somehow related to Serini's gate protection scheme, I can't figure out why they haven't interfered with Xykon et al.

What kind of summoned/created creatures would use poison delivered by dart?

Green Bubble's speech is not formal. It's colloquial, casual, and even a bit stilted, for whatever it's worth.

How could the encounter have gone better, from the point of view of the newcomers? From one vantage, it looks to have proceeded exactly as they intended, maybe with the exception of Lien blocking the second dart. It's possible that the ideal scenario was that the newcomers didn't need to attack in the first place.

I have a feeling that Green Bubble is engaging in some (near) epic-level bluffing with regard to O-chul's poison.

I wonder what they did with O-chul and Lien. Were they stuffed under a snowbank? Stashed somewhere in the bugbear village? Transported to another plane?

[understatement]

KASJHDJKASHDKJ BASKJDHJKASHDJAHSDJHASK

So first:

I cheered nonverbally when Team Evil showed up because, you know, Team Evil. Glad to see them at the end of their line now.

Secondly --

if that's Serini, I swear that would be so awesome -- like how long has this person been watching all of these characters? Maybe they even eavesdropped on Lien talking about the OOTS coming soon. I don't think it'd be the iFCC, though, since they seem at least Neutral.

Yeah, this cliffhanger was amazing, and the last panel was both...I don't know, sinister? Contemplative? It was just pure awesome.

[Aeliren]

Well, this is it. The beginning of the end.

I mean, there's still at least 5 years left minimum, so it's not like it's over, but when it is... it's gonna be the end of an era. But hey, all good things must come to an end.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Oh no. :smallbiggrin:

Memo to myself: next time I DM a game have agents of the big bad pretend to be worried about the big bad noticing them so the players let their guard down.

Not saying that's what's happening here, mind, just making a note. :smallbiggrin:

[Malfarian]

Why is O-Chul still injured? Wasn't he hurt days ago?

[Quinton250]

Remember that the illusion at Girard’s gate was triggered by code words, one of which was Soon? Lien says “soon-ish” two panels before the attack occurs, coincidence? We also know Serini took Girard’s bet about Soon interfering with the other gates. Girard tried to kill Soon through his illusion being triggered, perhaps Serini simply instructed her magically triggered followers to subdue the interferers and bring them to her? The fact that the ambushers found Paladins when being summoned would line up with interference from Soon as well.

[KorvinStarmast]

... Serini arranged for some extra-planar creatures to be conjured into existence as part of her defence. Something like a Contingency or a Glyph of Warding spell?

----------------------------------------------

1. I will make the guess that this is not the IFCC, nor their agents.

2. The "existing" (last panel) points to some creautre that relies on magic to exist - something like an invisible stalker, but more likely a variation on that monster - but the two different colors of speech bubbles raises so many question that I am not sure where to start.

3. Point: not only are the Paladins being lifted up by the invisible creature who calls "green voice" Boss, but their weapons are being lifted with them. These creatures want O-Chul and Lien alive, and maybe even have further use for them, but they need to be removed from this location for ... reasons.

a. My guess: this faction (number 8 or 9) does not want Xykon interrupted.
b. They are interested in seeing the gate found and the ritual to open it begun.
c. And then, this faction makes their move.

4. Art commentary:

I like how (in the last panel) the size of the rift is depicted, and its depth, and its shape. I then went back to the earlier panels and find that the cliff is down in the rift, but at the upper parts of it. This gives me a sense of how deep the rift is, and how dangerous the OP is/was for Lien and O'Chul.

Lien says: "How do you out-paladin me even while unconscious?"
That made me grin.
I also love how she blocked the first dart with her spear.
She's a darned good paladin! (While I liked her character already just fine, the GDGU Lien origin story made me like this character even more. Go Lien Go!)

[Pampukin]

Some random thoughts:

If the newcomers are somehow related to Serini's gate protection scheme, I can't figure out why they haven't interfered with Xykon et al.

What kind of summoned/created creatures would use poison delivered by dart?



Pixies come to mind, they have tiny nondamaging arrows that put people to sleep, they should be stronger than average pixies tho, cause the save for those is only a 15 fort dc, and the paladins should cakewalk those. It did say that the poison was lethal, but that might have been a ruse to force Lien to disarm.

I keep thinking fey are a likely faction that hasnt shown up yet and would fit thematically (winter court, north pole, invisible disarming creatures that the paladins wouldnt trust inmediatly that might have a horse in this race, as they arent outsiders, but dont have souls, so they might go down with the world if it ends.)

[TRH]

I'm actually leaning against the IFCC the more I think about this. They said Sabine would return with a vessel, not two, and neither of those speech bubbles resembled hers from what I recall. So maybe Serini and apprentice indeed, I couldn't say.

Also, had this gone on for just one more strip, all of you guys would need to bow down to my amazing predictive abilities, because we are 59 strips after 1130, when I predicted we'd have 60 strips left in the book. So close.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Why did they wait for Lien to get and reply to the sending? O-chul and Lien have been there a long time already.Maybe that's significant, but I think maybe Rich just wanted to avoid having two scenes.

Imagine panels 1-7 as one scene. Some time passed (including the not-so-interesting end of that conversation, where they just speculate about questions the audience knows the answers to).

The rest of the comic is another scene (hours or days later), set in motion by the IFC, or Hell, or the mysterious ninth faction.

[SaintRidley]

Why is O-Chul still injured? Wasn't he hurt days ago?

Those are scars.

[The Pilgrim]

About the identity of those two gentlemenfolk, we know that the full story behind the Scribbels has to be revealed, and the source can only be one of them. Or, at least, of their faction. Serini, or her people, have to show up. And those two guys seem up for the job.

Their speech bubble pattern matchs that of monsters, and we know Serini populated the defenses of Kraagor with the toughest monsters available on the Manual. So I bet those two are half-something-mounstruously-cool.

[magwaaf]

2 months??? 2 months??? nooooooo! i need anoter comic to kill time!

well i guess... time to speculate on who are those voices?

[RMS Oceanic]

I lean towards them being entities tied to the true nature of the Snarl, much like the world within the world, or maybe a byproduct of the rifts or gates themselves, with a semi-long shot of being allied with Serini and/or her descendants. I definitely don't think they're directly allied to any faction who's been shown on page in at least the last two books.

Which means yes, Samantha is about to have her revenge.

[RMS Oceanic]

I lean towards them being entities tied to the true nature of the Snarl, much like the world within the world, or maybe a byproduct of the rifts or gates themselves, with a semi-long shot of being allied with Serini and/or her descendants. I definitely don't think they're directly connected to any faction who's been shown on page in at least the last two books.

Which means yes, Samantha is about to have her revenge. :smallwink:

[TheNecrocomicon]

Whatever my trying-to-make-sense of the rest of this strip might be, I get the sense that it is not coincidental that the bubbles being displayed are orange and green.

Why? Because accounting for the Northern (yellow), Western (red) and Southern (blue) pantheons, and the Dark One (purple), the two speech bubbles match the two types of quiddities out of the classic rainbow that we have hitherto never seen in this comic -- at least not in live, active usage as opposed to a flashback.

I have the feeling that part of the plot of the final book may be trying to reason and negotiate with these beings (whatever they truly are) to form some kind of alliance to deal with the threat of the Snarl in an even more permanent way, if that's possible, than just locking it away with one new colour.

[Anitar]

So far, the hypothesis on Those GuysTM are:
Can we just agree to officially refer to these newcomers as "Those Guys" ("TG" for short) until their real identities are revealed?


I'd be surprised if that's not Serini Toormuck.
But why would she want to cease existing?
Green Bubble doesn't want to. They sigh as they say they're "finally" doing this (implying they think it was inevitable) and will cost them their existence.


I like how (in the last panel) the size of the rift is depicted, and its depth, and its shape. I then went back to the earlier panels and find that the cliff is down in the rift, but at the upper parts of it. This gives me a sense of how deep the rift is, and how dangerous the OP is/was for Lien and O'Chul.
No, the rift is inside the gate. That term is quite specific in this story. This is a ravine.



Anyway, is it just me, or does there seem to be a mysterious figure in the final panel? (to the right of the houses)

[littlebum2002]

It's so obvious, why haven't we thought of it before? They are members of the Holey Brotherhood (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), once again protecting the right of holes to exist.

[NobleCuriosity]

Here are a few things I thought were relevant when I read the comment (some of these have already been noted while I typed this, oh well):

-The mystery characters have been monitoring the situation long enough to know that Xykon has had multiple encounters today and that the paladins don't want him to be aware of their presence. The ambush came immediately after the sending spell, likely because that was a cue for the attackers (though it's possibly just because the narrative has shifted to the paladins now so their plot is allowed to move forward).
-It's heavily implied that the green voiced character is the one using the poison darts. The green voiced character asks the orange voiced character to grab the paladins, implying the orange voiced character is larger and stronger. Their manner of speech and the fact that the orange voiced character calls the green voiced character "Boss" makes me think that the orange voiced character fits the big dumb henchman trope.
-All three poison darts are shot at an upward trajectory. That doesn't necessary mean the character who launched them was short, they could have been flying just off the side or throwing them underhand or side arm but if they were launched while standing on the cliff and they were shot with a blowgun or thrown overhand then the person launching them was likely short.
-The green voiced character seems to have used the antidote on the paladins prior to them being carried away, based on the fact that we don't see any green bubbles. It also seems like they are bringing their weapons with them. This implies that the ambushers don't want to hurt the paladins and want them to continue to be able to fight in the future but likely didn't trust that they'd be able to approach them safely.
-The fact that the ambushers needed invisibility, poison and flying to complete the attack and had doubts about the potential of the poison working likely means they aren't especially powerful. Lien was able to block the dart meant for her and the ambusher needed to negotiate her surrender before trying to launch another dart. The ambushers are also worried about the bug bears seeing them.
-We have seen color on color speech balloons from Soon (oath ghost), Girard (desert illusion message to Soon), Empress of Blood, Enor and the Frost Giants.
-We don't know how either mystery character is flying or invisible. Is it something one or both can do on their own or are scrolls involved, we don't really know.

Here are my thoughts on who this may be:
-I don't think it's Serini. A poison attack launched from a low angle at the gate she is defending would make her a prime candidate, but if she wanted to let the snarl destroy the world (my assumption based on the existing comment), she is in control of the only gate left standing so she already had the power to achieve this.
-The IFCC recently said that their underlings will get their hands dirty and stating that the godsmoot destroying existence would have fulfilled their plan makes them a likely culprit. Sabine is acquiring a vessel and it's more likely that someone the IFCC associates with would have a colored voice than most earthly possibilities. The fact that they didn't just kill the paladins and weren't happy about how the encounter went makes me doubt that it's the IFCC a little bit though.
-It's possible that this ambush was completed in order to set the stage for a future ambush of the Order of the Stick when they arrive. They know where they will be going and they even have two paladins to use as bait if required. They needed to allow the paladins to answer the message and respond back to ensure the OOTS would come to them. This implies that the survival of the paladins wasn't because the attackers are merciful in any way, which once again doesn't fit the tone I get from the green voiced character.
-With all that said, it's obviously Red Cloak's Niece who has since become a Witch Doctor.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly...up until the last line. I’m starting to get really sick of the “Redcloak’s niece” meme clogging up any speculation (though it stings less when accompanied by actual analysis like this.).


Maybe that's significant, but I think maybe Rich just wanted to avoid having two scenes.

Imagine panels 1-7 as one scene. Some time passed (including the not-so-interesting end of that conversation, where they just speculate about questions the audience knows the answers to).

The rest of the comic is another scene (hours or days later), set in motion by the IFC, or Hell, or the mysterious ninth faction.

I‘m skeptical, given that the attackers actually used Xykon’s presence to coerce Lien into coming, and talk about how they are “finally doing this” after the sending arrives (and possibly, after O-chul talks about finding the gate). While I’m sure the not having another scene part was a bonus, the timing seems pretty significant.

[Drake Halfmoon]

Damn, the book is over. And I've only recently started using this thread.

Well, I am glad to see that it will be back in less than three months. Gotta hand to you, Rich. You are dedicated.

[Windscion]

Anyway, is it just me, or does there seem to be a mysterious figure in the final panel? (to the right of the houses)
You mean the Kraggor statue?

[Heavenblade]

Well

I am juat postin it here reall quick but the only thing that matches the type of the speech bubble is a projection a la girard, and while poisoned arrow ceritnaly fits a rogue, and yhe voice does imply it knows paladins (soon?), Poison feels to evil for serini, and since she was chaotic she probably wasn't anyone's boss

[Anitar]

You mean the Kraggor statue?

I thought that was located in front of all the doors (at least in the present day), not up on higher ground.

[Doug Lampert]

Can we just agree to officially refer to these newcomers as "Those Guys" ("TG" for short) until their real identities are revealed?

I prefer Kermit and Scooter.

[Hardcore]

Remember that the illusion at Girard’s gate was triggered by code words, one of which was Soon? Lien says “soon-ish” two panels before the attack occurs, coincidence? We also know Serini took Girard’s bet about Soon interfering with the other gates. Girard tried to kill Soon through his illusion being triggered, perhaps Serini simply instructed her magically triggered followers to subdue the interferers and bring them to her? The fact that the ambushers found Paladins when being summoned would line up with interference from Soon as well.

Yes, most likely. Good catch!
I can add it seems reasonable Serini choose to learn magic during the years.
Those skills would help in defending the gate. Rogue skills not so much.

[NobleCuriosity]

1. Maybe they figured since reinforcements would be incoming this was the last chance to have a peacefull conversation with the paladins, they probably are chaotic and chaotic being dont like to deal with lawfuls unless its from a position of power, since like Hayley once said, they tend to impose their views on others.
2. It has been theorized that their existence could be tied to either the gate, or the world within the rift. Maybe OB is pessimistic about the chances to contain the snarl and expects this is all futile.
3. I generally agree that they waited for the perfect moment, but I would add that maybe they can win but in direct combat could not without injury on some of the involved, either them or the paladins, plus this timing also helps if Xykon does notice, he and his party is somewhat depleted and escaping might be more likely.
4. It does depend on how much they have been listening to the other two, Lien and O´Chull joke a lot about being paladins, also probably cast spells and pray a lot, so it could have been an informed guess.
5.I agree those two are not in on this.
6. I also noticed they seem to be carrying the duo by their feet, but holding their weapons pretty far from them, so that suggests at least some size/strength involved.


My quatloos are on some of the inhabitants of the tomb, some sort of monster that lives there, and will cease existing because the magic that replenishes the monsters in the tomb will go out if the gate is destroyed/opened/tampered with.

Your conclusion seems...plausible, though I still feel less plausible than “IFCC minions” (though the two aren’t really mutually exclusive, are they?).

However I don’t buy your response to #1. That is not what a “peaceful conversation” looks like, or even an attempt at one later from a position of power—and why would the revelation that reinforcements were arriving in two days provoke this kind of immediate response? And given that they were worried about a bugbear spotting them, it makes little sense to me to try this while Xykon and his group were out unless they expected they might need to use his presence to pressure one of the paladins.

And #3. Doing this while Xykon was inside would be WAY more effective at preventing him from spotting them.

[Godskook]

I thought that was located in front of all the doors (at least in the present day), not up on higher ground.

These comics:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html

establish the statue as being up on a ridge, at the height of the general horizon(i.e., not inside a ridge), right next to a bunch of huts, overlooking the doors.

There's only one spot in 1189 where that could be, so the figure you're seeing must be Kraagor's statue, as it's too prominent to not be pictured.

[The Pilgrim]

The two new guys appear right after O-Chul wonders how will they find the Gate. Interrupting his speech, even. So it's crystal clear they belong to the defenders of the Gate.

[Draconi Redfir]

So far, the hypothesis on Those GuysTM are:
- Serini or her agents.
- IFCC.
- Some agents of the Snarl.
- Fey.
- Some gods.
- A completely new side.
- Redcloak's niece.

The last one being obviously the most realistic.

-Protectors of the gate

[LadyEowyn]

My first guess is Serini, but maybe that’s too obvious.

Whoever the mystery people are, the way they talk makes it sound like they regard themselves as (anti)heroes - the tone is pragmatic and regretful, not gloating.

[Rektascensja]

Another stupid theory I'm surprised nobody posted yet. Green bubble could be Lirian's soul somehow released from the crystal prison. Color pattern matches Soon and Girard, and green is definitely her color more than Serini's (nature, clothing and her slice of the monitoring device). Unlike some other hypotheses, we know she should be located nearby because of Xykon. Plus, poison is one of her ways and she prefers to take captives alive, both facts showed in SoD.

I have no idea how she got out, who would call her boss and how to resolve all other implausibilities. Just wanted to write something new.

[Aidan]

The two new guys appear right after O-Chul wonders how will they find the Gate. Interrupting his speech, even. So it's crystal clear they belong to the defenders of the Gate.

They've been sitting there for at least a little while now, so I doubt this was the first time that either openly speculated about it. But this is right after the Order was told info about the gates location, so this new actor has some level of interest in the Order arriving.

Or I'm wrong, reading that comic was like throwing my brain in a blender

[Squire Doodad]

Oof, first time I've seen a "server busy" error!
When was the last time that happened, the end of the last book?

[Particle_Man]

I prefer Kermit and Scooter.

The Muppet No-Shows? :smallsmile:

Hmmm . . . the pixie idea is intriging, but there is a big invisible guy too. Unless there are a lot more than two characters there; I mean, there could be. They are invisible, so who knows how many of them there are besides the two that have spoken?

I am also thinking of Small Gods a la Pratchett for some reason. Nothing definite, just popped into my head.

It is going to be a long two months! :smallbiggrin:

[Schroeswald]

Sum me up to thinking it’s Kermit and Scooter, meaning that it’s some mystery side we haven’t seen yet (but until we find out their names I’m calling them Kermit and Scooter, cause it’s funny).

[MReav]

I wonder if the characters are telepathic. That might explain why O-Chul can't tell where they're coming from, and alternate-coloured telepathy was established in Dungeon Crawling Fools extra panels where Xykon was doing some experiments on the Gate and gave one of his expendable minions an amulet that allowed telepathic communication, which had a different coloured speech bubble.

[The Derp Potato]

Going to throw out a guess here and say these are oathspirits (or the equivalent) of Serini and Lirian?

[Squire Doodad]

Going to throw out a guess here and say these are oathspirits (or the equivalent) of Serini and Lirian?

I think I'm misunderstanding something, but

Lirian's soul has been bound by Xykon, as has Dorukan I think?

Not sure what our last minute guests are. They could be the "proper" guardians of the gate (aside from a last minute trick), with the focus being on Kraggor's endurance forced to take on Serini's sneaky protectors.

[Anitar]

I think I'm misunderstanding something, but

Lirian's soul has been bound by Xykon, as has Dorukan I think?

You have understood correctly.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

The Lirian/Serini relationship doesn't really fit with this conversation. Plus, an Oathspirit would be bound to protect the gate that they swore to protect, and Lirian's gate

Has been destroyed.

Plus, Serini is too small to lift both of them at that much of a gap while Lirian carries the weapons, given the size of OB darts aren't really their style, and GB's speech pattern is British/Scottish (Dropping "I" from "I was getting worried" and "I could've") or maybe stereotypical gangster, so it's hard to picture GB as Lirian. That last point, I think, also adds to the idea they're Neutral Evil fiends.

[Squire Doodad]

The Lirian/Serini relationship doesn't really fit with this conversation. Plus, an Oathspirit would be bound to protect the gate that they swore to protect, and Lirian's gate

Has been destroyed.

Plus, Serini is too small to lift both of them at that much of a gap while Lirian carries the weapons, given the size of OB darts aren't really their style, and GB's speech pattern is British/Scottish (Dropping "I" from "I was getting worried" and "I could've") or maybe stereotypical gangster, so it's hard to picture GB as Lirian. That last point, I think, also adds to the idea they're Neutral Evil fiends.

Hey, maybe it's the crab and spikey fiends Z and Greg summoned way back when!

...or not. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html)

[Fish]

Maybe Kermit and Scooter are the ones who helped Serini build the dungeon in the first place. We never do see who it is pulling the ropes.

[CriticalFailure]

Has Team Evil gotten more powerful? Some other people pointed out that at first they didn't think they could handle more than one door per day. Obviously the MiTD's tricks have increased their pace, but it still is a big jump from one to five and considering six.

[Squire Doodad]

Maybe Kermit and Scooter are the ones who helped Serini build the dungeon in the first place. We never do see who it is pulling the ropes.

I'd say roll a d6.

1=Assistants from the IFCC

2=The gate's "true" guardians

3=Mystery character (something we haven't thought of yet)

4=Redcloak's Niece

5 and 6: [your ideas here]

We can tell it's someone with Greater Invisibility, does that rule out anything?

[Raven777]

The canyon being a crescent gives me Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade vibes.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Has Team Evil gotten more powerful? Some other people pointed out that at first they didn't think they could handle more than one door per day. Obviously the MiTD's tricks have increased their pace, but it still is a big jump from one to five and considering six.

The conversation probably went like this:

X: So let's rest and get ready for another one

RC: Actually, let's do six.

X: What? How are we going to manage that?

RC: We've done it before. We must have! Look at the number of days, and the number of doors!

My bet is that they've still only been doing one per rest, but no one there is smart enough except the math nerd RC to notice MitD's antics. They haven't done more than three a day, doing long rests end to end.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wow. That was completely unexpected. I seriously doubt anyone would have seen that sequence of events happening. It was good to have a check-in with Team Evil and see that they’re close, but not quite there. I have no idea who the two abductors could possibly be, but my money leans towards someone we haven’t met yet, since I’m really not sure who we know that fits these roles. Excited for February 3rd!

[silversaraph]

If Serini, which makes sense, that means that this is the correct door, finally.

[Squire Doodad]

If Serini, which makes sense, that means that this is the correct door, finally.

How would it mean that?

[Hypothetical]

So, we have a new player. Interesting.
I have a strong suspicion that it is a god, probably from somewhere South, that has been missing in action, presumed dead, for so long no one alive remembers it.
And the last line.
Existing.
I'm betting it's going to intervene to save the World, but in doing so it will reveal itself to the other gods, and it's afraid that they're going to destroy him/her.
And a two month hiatus isn't bad after a Season ending Cliffhanger like that.

[Mandor]

Well, I'm sure it's been done in several other Sending's that I haven't noticed...but this time, for whatever reason, it caught my eye.

Lien used "hasn't"... a contraction... and it only meets the 25 word threshold if that counts as one word. "has not" would have terminated at "Please".
I'm not saying this is wrong. I wouldn't expect the magic to have a grammar checker. But I wonder if that means "Ohgodtheirarmyiscomingatusfromthesouth" would count as one word, if spoken quickly enough with no pause between syllables.

*crawls back under rock*

[Quinton250]

What if these two characters have instructions from Serini to put a plan in motion when the time comes (that time being now) that leads to them sacrificing themselves to the snarl. The tone of the green speaking character shows that they aren’t excited about what is happening but are going to carry forward because it is their duty. It’s likely that the paladins and the Order will be part of this plan as well.

[TRH]

The conversation probably went like this:

X: So let's rest and get ready for another one

RC: Actually, let's do six.

X: What? How are we going to manage that?

RC: We've done it before. We must have! Look at the number of days, and the number of doors!

My bet is that they've still only been doing one per rest, but no one there is smart enough except the math nerd RC to notice MitD's antics. They haven't done more than three a day, doing long rests end to end.

"Long rests" are a 5E thing. Here you rest long enough to regain all your spells or you don't get any.

That said, I don't think there's any way for them to be this confused unless:

1. They have attempted more than one passage per rest more than once before,

and

2. They haven't been doing so consistently, leading to confusion over just how many fights per rest they've attempted. The more consistent they are, the more likely it is that Redcloak happens upon an incongruity in their progress.

[CriticalFailure]

The conversation probably went like this:

X: So let's rest and get ready for another one

RC: Actually, let's do six.

X: What? How are we going to manage that?

RC: We've done it before. We must have! Look at the number of days, and the number of doors!

My bet is that they've still only been doing one per rest, but no one there is smart enough except the math nerd RC to notice MitD's antics. They haven't done more than three a day, doing long rests end to end.

I think they must have been ramping up slowly. I doubt they jumped straight from one to five. I agree that it's because Redcloak's the only one who is nerdy and schedule orientated enough to keep track, but I would imagine that he's been gradually pushing to do more.

[Grey Watcher]

If Serini, which makes sense, that means that this is the correct door, finally.

I'm kinda hoping that they've already skipped the Real Door, because I want the MitD's actions to have an effect.

Now, if he can bluff his way out of Red's and Xykon's wrath with a big "Whoopsie-daisy! Guess I'm not that smart!" would remain to be seen.

[catagent101]

I'm pretty sure that that Serini is not affiliated with the mystery voices for several reasons:


They are aware of Team Evil, but are doing nothing about them trying to take the gate. Instead they target the paladins.
GB's talk about the deal sounds to me like it explicitly is about Lien and O-Chul rather than some generic bounty hunter or protection deal. That, and they attacked after the sending spell, possibly so as not to alert the Order that Lien and O-Chul are in danger.
Serini doesn't need to kidnap O-Chul nor Lien in order to get them on her side. In fact, poisoning them and kidnapping them would probably cause more problems than it solves. If she wants to be more discrete, she could just put a piece of paper for them to read when they are asleep with instructions to go to a place for example.
Poison use is an ability that is typically given to classes that require evil alignments like the blackguard or assassin, though The Giant doesn't follow the rules closely. Regardless, without that ability, the mysterious people would risk poisoning themselves with a deadly poison (or at least one that can make them unconscious).
Serini "wasn't really the type for retiring" (comic #277), so it's quite possible she's elsewhere doing something else right now. Though since V wasn't able to contact her, things are probably more complicated than that (for example, sending has a chance of failure if the target is on another plane). The fact that Xykon has her diary could mean she met a bad end of some kind at his hands, especially since sneak attack doesn't work on undead.


Interestingly enough, the poison on the SRD that follows the effects of the poison seen most closely is drow poison, since it can cause unconsciousness both as initial and secondary effect and is an injury poison. However it isn't deadly, nor would it cause further damage to O-Chul after he is unconscious. Also, ZZ'dtri has gray on white speech bubbles, so probably the rest of the drow do as well.

[Mandor]

I'm kinda hoping that they've already skipped the Real Door, because I want the MitD's actions to have an effect.

Now, if he can bluff his way out of Red's and Xykon's wrath with a big "Whoopsie-daisy! Guess I'm not that smart!" would remain to be seen.

The good news is MitD probably doesn't even remember which doors they really did, and which one's he marked.
So he probably can't tell them, not even under duress.

On the speech bubbles, I admit my immediate thought was Sereni and a henchman of some kind.

What I would like it to be, somehow, is Sabine and Serini teamed up to thwart the IFCC. But I don't think that's really plausible... "We're doing this, finally" implies they've been holding back in reserve a long, LONG, time. Which may be true for Sereni. Not so much for Sabine.

[Grey Watcher]

Worth noting that Kermit didn't attack until O-Chul mentioned the soon-to-arrive allies would be looking for the Gate. My guess is, prior to that, they gave the Paladins and the allies they kept talking about the benefit of the doubt, hoping they'd be content to just finish off Team Evil and then go home. But then O-Chul implied they'd be heading for the Gate themselves at some point, so poison darts for everyone.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

"Long rests" are a 5E thing. Here you rest long enough to regain all your spells or you don't get any.

Well, sorry for forgetting that there aren't actually any rules for resting in this old, decrepit edition. Either way, you got what I meant: 8 hour rest.


2. They haven't been doing so consistently, leading to confusion over just how many fights per rest they've attempted. The more consistent they are, the more likely it is that Redcloak happens upon an incongruity in their progress.

Yeah... maybe Redcloak's perceptive enough to know that there are way too many doors marked, but not smart enough to remember which doors they definitely went through.

The doors are all distinct, with probably different monsters inside, so I find it hard to understand how RC hasn't caught on quicker.

For the number of days they've been up there they must have done enough doors to somehow think they've done 6 before.

Figuring out the average will hardly make up 6 extra doors, depending on how many errant X's MitD have placed.

They haven't been there long enough for remembering how many doors they've done to be especially difficult.

I honestly think this might be a proof for Redcloak having a negative intelligence modifier, despite being nerdy.

[Darkhands]

Wrong color for that, I'd wager...

But how can you keep us hanging like this, Rich?
I know, you did it before, but I started reading during the Godsmoot, so this is the first time I feel the burn of having to wait :(

You think you've got it bad?? I started reading in the double digit comics... I've been waiting for over 15 years!

[hroþila]

Well, I'm sure it's been done in several other Sending's that I haven't noticed...but this time, for whatever reason, it caught my eye.

Lien used "hasn't"... a contraction... and it only meets the 25 word threshold if that counts as one word. "has not" would have terminated at "Please".
I'm not saying this is wrong. I wouldn't expect the magic to have a grammar checker. But I wonder if that means "Ohgodtheirarmyiscomingatusfromthesouth" would count as one word, if spoken quickly enough with no pause between syllables.

*crawls back under rock*
The simple answer is that Sending is a game mechanic with arbitrary rules that make little to no sense in the real world. Don't sweat it.

That said, personally I don't see any problem with hasn't counting as one word. It has its own standardized spelling and it's not pronounced "like has not, but faster". And you can't simply replace hasn't with has not in all instances: Hasn't he spoken? is not **Has not he spoken? but Has he not spoken? If you don't like that, though, you may take some solace in the fact that exploration pace could reasonably count as one word, as it is a compound in all regards except graphically (which shouldn't count for much in a spoken spell, arguably).

And that's without even getting into how Sending works in other languages.

[Lvl45DM!]

Prince Faroomfar?

[bunsen_h]

And that's without even getting into how Sending works in other languages.

German, with its Manywordstogethercrunchingness?

[Fitzclowningham]

I'm pretty sure that that Serini is not affiliated with the mystery voices for several reasons:


They are aware of Team Evil, but are doing nothing about them trying to take the gate. Instead they target the paladins.



Additionally, they didn't seem to care at all about the bugbears going through the doors repeatedly. It's almost as though the gate isn't behind any of them.

[MReav]

I think I'm misunderstanding something, but

Lirian's soul has been bound by Xykon, as has Dorukan I think?


At the very least had. It's possible they were freed when Xykon's body was destroyed when Roy threw him in the Gate defences, or when Dorukan's fortress was exploded.

[danielxcutter]

Sounds like RC presumes they must have done six doors a day considering how many are crossed off, which kinda ties into his "no I CAN'T be wrong" fatal flaw thing he has going. Also that nobody has been keeping close enough track to realize that there are way more doors crossed off than they've been through.

And if Team Evil isn't getting a bunch of XP from this I'll eat my hat; not only are some of the monsters strong enough for Xykon to get XP, but going through so many doors per day probably gives bonus XP from how drained they are when going into the later doors. Redcloak's going to be casting something like Miracle or Gate, I bet; some spell that costs XP. Anyone know of other powerful XP-using spells that either Redcloak or Xykon could use?

For some reason I thought the new guys were Slaadi, considering the coloration of their speech bubbles and the fact that the IFCC can and has used non-fiendish assets before - also I might have been biased considering I've read Bastion of Broken Souls recently I guess - but it's honestly way too soon to guess what or who these guys are for sure.

[Squire Doodad]

Sounds like RC presumes they must have done six doors a day considering how many are crossed off, which kinda ties into his "no I CAN'T be wrong" fatal flaw thing he has going. Also that nobody has been keeping close enough track to realize that there are way more doors crossed off than they've been through.

And if Team Evil isn't getting a bunch of XP from this I'll eat my hat; not only are some of the monsters strong enough for Xykon to get XP, but going through so many doors per day probably gives bonus XP from how drained they are when going into the later doors. Redcloak's going to be casting something like Miracle or Gate, I bet; some spell that costs XP. Anyone know of other powerful XP-using spells that either Redcloak or Xykon could use?

For some reason I thought the new guys were Slaadi, considering the coloration of their speech bubbles and the fact that the IFCC can and has used non-fiendish assets before - also I might have been biased considering I've read Bastion of Broken Souls recently I guess - but it's honestly way too soon to guess what or who these guys are for sure.

I'd guess that they've gained a level or so, just to make the final battle more challenging :3
Also, to make it so that XP-using actions that happen at the end of the story are, in fact, not countered with "but RC got no XP on screen and he should have dropped a level or two from that cause 50 rounds of [spell]!"


So, we have a new player. Interesting.
I have a strong suspicion that it is a god, probably from somewhere South, that has been missing in action, presumed dead, for so long no one alive remembers it.
And the last line.
Existing.
I'm betting it's going to intervene to save the World, but in doing so it will reveal itself to the other gods, and it's afraid that they're going to destroy him/her.
And a two month hiatus isn't bad after a Season ending Cliffhanger like that.

Cat, get out of here

[ThatNickGuy]

So, I have a theory and a question:

Theory: The Monster in the Darkness is Serini, only cursed or using various power items or something. It's PROBABLY not Serini, but that's been my running theory for a few years now.

Question: Has anyone ever said how many doors there are? Judging by the scale of the valley (the first time we've seen it from a zoomed-out shot like that), I'm thinking what? Hundreds? We also haven't seen how deep each cave goes or how many monsters are in them. Anything we've seen about their contents has been implied or handled off-screen. I just wonder, percentage-wise, how many doors have been X'd so far.

[a_flemish_guy]

few observations

1) they're taking their weapons along with them, this crosses out outward hostility as it would be easier to just chuck them off the cliff (it could also be that they don't want them discovered by bugbears)
2) they're likely lying about the poison being lethal, there's no indication that they've cured o-chul or lien after she goes out and a few minutes is a really short time-span
3) it's likely not enor and ganji, "grab one of them" implies that each character is capable of carying another character, while in their case enor does all the carying for them

[PontificatusRex]

Prince Faroomfar?

Hmm, snowy landscape far up north...invisible fliers...could check out. And his turf by Rime Isle did seem to be a nexus of alternate universes.

Perhaps Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser's Ootsworld avatars are Enor and Ganji...

[Petrocorus]

2. They haven't been doing so consistently, leading to confusion over just how many fights per rest they've attempted. The more consistent they are, the more likely it is that Redcloak happens upon an incongruity in their progress.
They probably go until they are tapped out, which can vary greatly from day to day depending on the monsters they encounter.



And that's without even getting into how Sending works in other languages.

In 3.5, the French edition of Sending gave us 30 words instead of 25. It was not ported into 5E, sadly.
It is more difficult to say thing in 25 words in French than in English.

[Anansiil]

Excellent cliff hanger. I always love these stories, and I can't wait until February!

[Yirggzmb]

In other news, I can't help but read Green Bubble's voice as the second narrator's voice from The Stanley Parable.

[mjasghar]

Grammar error spotted
Bugbears spots us
If the green bubble is talking about the tribe it should be spot us
If about the beastmaster or whatever she is it should’ve been bugbear

[Emperor Time]

I'm glad that both are still alive and didn't die in this update. Also I assume they are from the final unknown faction or at least one of the last ones if there are still factions that we haven't met yet. And hope they keep their word in letting them both lived.

[Petrocorus]

Grammar error spotted
Bugbears spots us
If the green bubble is talking about the tribe it should be spot us
If about the beastmaster or whatever she is it should’ve been bugbear

"Grab them before ONE of the bugbears spots us."
The grammar is correct.

[Ruck]

So, I have a theory and a question:

Theory: The Monster in the Darkness is Serini, only cursed or using various power items or something. It's PROBABLY not Serini, but that's been my running theory for a few years now.

I think it would completely cheapen the MITD's arc if all that growth and learning to think for himself (and that is how he identifies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html), lest we forget) was all an act being put on by Serini.

[kapos]

In 3.5, the French edition of Sending gave us 30 words instead of 25. It was not ported into 5E, sadly.
It is more difficult to say thing in 25 words in French than in English.

The Hungarian edition keeps the 25 words, even though all messages in the comic could be comfortably relayed in 20. I tried translating Nale's attempts, and it was pretty hard getting him cut off by a 25-word limit (while keeping his monologue plausible).

[137beth]

In hindsight, Lien shouldn't have used words telling Haley where they are, and should have instead have mentioned that the MitD is helping delay Xykon. But hindsight, as is often the case, is also the year that book 7 will begin.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I forget the guys name but suppose super paranoid illusionist guy is behind this with all the stuff with the invisibility and what not.

This sounds like a strange idea on its premise I admit, and even with his dragon blood granting him an extended life span, I believe his life would have ended by now, and dodging familicide and having it effect his clan seems like an odd stretch that would need filling in.

So another idea might be nale who was reborn as a demon clansmen. But even I don't know if this is possible. I'll make a thread to this topic if it hasn't been made yet, so that I can keep track of this topic better.

[NobleCuriosity]

In hindsight, Lien shouldn't have used words telling Haley where they are, and should have instead have mentioned that the MitD is helping delay Xykon. But hindsight, as is often the case, is also the year that book 7 will begin.

That’s a really good point. Last time the Oots met MitD, he told Haley that he thought he was supposed to devour them (though also conveyed his childlike nature to her).

Love the last sentence, by the way. Nice twist on the aphorism.

[mjasghar]

"Grab them before ONE of the bugbears spots us."
The grammar is correct.

Oops
You’re right
My excuse is it’s way too early here

[Aquillion]

In 3.5, the French edition of Sending gave us 30 words instead of 25. It was not ported into 5E, sadly.
It is more difficult to say thing in 25 words in French than in English.Now I'm picturing the German Sending allowing only a single word. :smallbiggrin:

[Anitar]

For all the mysteries that the Invisible Mystery Speech Bubble People bring, can we at least agree that they should be the last new "side" introduced in the main plot?


3) it's likely not enor and ganji, "grab one of them" implies that each character is capable of carying another character, while in their case enor does all the carying for them
It's not "Grab one of them", it's just "Grab them".

[Mariele]

Hey, hi, haven't read the whole thread, just wanted to post my thoughts on the new comic.

Wow, nice ending. That'll keep us in suspense until the next update! Weirdly enough, what captured my attention most about this page was the single panel for Team Evil. Really like what's going on there. I keep seeing people say that MITD's plan is bad, but it's actually pretty dang solid to me. Assuming that the Gate IS behind one of the doors, if they simply went a-plunderin' one by one, crossing them off as they go, they WOULD eventually reach the Gate. But if MITD crosses off ones that they haven't gone into, by the time they reach the end (assuming they haven't hit the door with the Gate yet), they would have to start all over. That's a serious time delay--maybe they would fight amongst one another (RC blames Oona? or MITD? in that case it's a noble sacrifice on MITD's part) before starting all over again (harder without the extra member that they would "out") or maybe they would decide that the door setup was a ruse, and the Gate is somewhere else--and if the Gate is behind one of the doors, that could throw them off the scent entirely (for awhile at least).

The main problem with it is that MITD could unintentionally be accelerating their search if he keeps crossing off doors that don't have the Gate. But it's a shot in the dark. There's always the same chance that the door they pick will be the right one--and they have as much chance of hitting that door with any trip in as MITD does of crossing off that door. I'd say the blind chaos MITD is throwing is works against TE better than the slow but methodical slog RC was going for.

I do think the pace is what's going to be MITD's downfall, though. The rest of TE is going to notice something is up soon. RC didn't want to go into the caves more than once originally--now they're trying to do six in one go? They're only going to trust the doors over their memories so long (and the only reason they've been more willing to trust the doors is because going through the caves is probably long, exhausting, and a bit of a blur due to their lack of distinction inside--but even in grindy slogs you begin to realize what's unrealistic and what's not). If MITD had crossed off one or two extra doors, and not consistently, it would take longer for them to catch on and they also wouldn't be progressing through the caves as quickly. I don't think making them so exhausted and tapped out on spells that running six caves puts them at risk for being killed by the monsters within was the plan. So why so fast? Why not just one or two extra doors at a time? They wouldn't have figured it out until near the very end (or even after they had gone through all the doors) if MITD had restrained himself in that way?

Now, as for Lien and O-Chul's mystery kidnappers:
Don't think it's Serini or anyone involved with her just because of the attitude they're taking and how they end the book. If it wasn't for the last two panels, I could believe Serini maybe hired some things to bring them to her (to interrogate? team up with? who knows!)--but with the lack of confidence there... it just doesn't jive with the rest of the Gatekeepers. They've all been pretty dedicated to their Gate and keeping it out of harm's way at any cost. That we would suddenly have such a jump and have Serini (or anyone she hired) have such a defeated attitude about it... no. That doesn't seem right to my inner bard. There are tons of ways to write the end of book dialogue that could keep Serini as a suspect and show the gravity of the situation, and this isn't one of them.

Don't have much else to add. I don't like guessing with so little to go on. I am noting that it seems like the orange one is big (carrying both paladins) and the green one is smaller (carrying both weapons--or the orange one has more than two limbs/is floating the weapons), that they waited until after the Sending was complete (think it's more likely that they wanted them to contact the OotS and let them know their status before they hauled them off, than them just being "set to go" as soon as someone mentions opening doors, because this is surely not the first time the paladins have discussed their plans for opening the doors in the future, even in passing), that they wanted to bring their weapons with them, that they are not so formidable that they aren't scared of getting the bugbears' attention, and that the darts seem to be coming from eye level to a little below eye level.

That's all I've got! Two months are gonna fly in no time. At least I'll have the new comic before my birthday. :)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, sorry for forgetting that there aren't actually any rules for resting in this old, decrepit edition. Either way, you got what I meant: 8 hour rest.

Redcloak is a cleric. He only gets spells once per day (at dusk, since he's Evil).

[danielxcutter]

Redcloak is a cleric. He only gets spells once per day (at dusk, since he's Evil).

Similarly, Xykon also can only refresh his spell energy once per day, as does Oona if she has any Ranger spell slots(and the Wisdom to use them I guess). And if the MitD has SLAs, a good chunk of them will likely be limited on a daily basis if they're not all at-will.

[TRH]

Similarly, Xykon also can only refresh his spell energy once per day, as does Oona if she has any Ranger spell slots(and the Wisdom to use them I guess). And if the MitD has SLAs, a good chunk of them will likely be limited on a daily basis if they're not all at-will.

I've not seen a single indication that the MitD has ever used his powers to help Team Evil, like, ever. No reason for him to start now, and it also seems clear that Xykon and Redcloak have long since given up hope that he'll do something effective.

In fact, it seems highly likely that Xykon only still tolerates his presence as insurance against Redcloak. The good thing for him is that there's no way in the universe Redcloak will ever foresee the Monster actually attacking him should he turn on Xykon.

[RelentlessImp]

Well, I've read it and had a think and I've come to the conclusion that there is only one word capable of summing this up.

WHAT.

[danielxcutter]

I've not seen a single indication that the MitD has ever used his powers to help Team Evil, like, ever. No reason for him to start now, and it also seems clear that Xykon and Redcloak have long since given up hope that he'll do something effective.

In fact, it seems highly likely that Xykon only still tolerates his presence as insurance against Redcloak. The good thing for him is that there's no way in the universe Redcloak will ever foresee the Monster actually attacking him should he turn on Xykon.

Who knows? We've never seen what goes on inside those doors... okay that came out a bit wrong.

You know what I mean, though.

[Velaryon]

It never ceases to amaze me that after all these years the Giant can still keep us guessing and then hit us with a swerve that nobody saw coming. I don't know how he does it.

Okay, so my 2 coppers on the possible identities of the paladins' assailants:

1) Gate guardians of some sort. I do not think either of them is Serini herself, though I suppose it's possible. I think it more likely that Serini is either dead of old age or old enough that she's passed over the duties of guarding the gate to a successor. We also know that she gathered up the strongest monsters she could to guard the gate, and many high-CR monsters are pretty intelligent. My money is on these two being monstrous agents of the gate's defense forces who spotted the paladins spying on Xykon, overheard them communicating to reinforcements, and decided to abduct them to get more information and possibly secure an alliance.

2) Another possibility: what if the Eastern pantheon wasn't truly destroyed, but drawn inside the Snarl? What if they're the ones who created the world within that even the other gods don't know about? The biggest flaw I see in this possibility is that the Eastern gods would only have access to one color of quiddity, but perhaps they've found a way to draw out threads of other colors from the Snarl itself and weave them into this world. I don't think this is the most likely possibility, but I can't find a way to disprove it either.

[Pampukin]

Your conclusion seems...plausible, though I still feel less plausible than “IFCC minions” (though the two aren’t really mutually exclusive, are they?).

However I don’t buy your response to #1. That is not what a “peaceful conversation” looks like, or even an attempt at one later from a position of power—and why would the revelation that reinforcements were arriving in two days provoke this kind of immediate response? And given that they were worried about a bugbear spotting them, it makes little sense to me to try this while Xykon and his group were out unless they expected they might need to use his presence to pressure one of the paladins.

And #3. Doing this while Xykon was inside would be WAY more effective at preventing him from spotting them.

Maybe peacefull wasnt the right word, but if they are something the paladins would attack on sight, or heck given that they are in enemy territory any approach might have made the palas panic and do something rash.
A bugbear spotting them scares them cause they would alert team evil, and this whole operation was to mantain secrecy.
Only the recipient of the sending spell can hear the message, so they only heard Liens response and what she told to O'Chull, so they dont know who is coming. If this was the only approach possible, it is a lot easier while there is only two of them.
As for why do it while Xykon is there? Easy they said it themselves, its a deterrent for a fight should the paladins offer unexpected resistance, they are invisible, the paladins would be in a much higher risk if the evil guys spot them.

I believe they need the paladins and the element of surprise and this is an approach that ensures both, even if it is rude and forcefull, they probably think they can convince the paladins given time to explain.
Heck, they might even bring them to the gate and say "destroy it, we will go out with this world, but the gods will save the souls of every other being on this plane" which is scary, cause its a very paladin thing to do.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

We can tell it's someone with Greater Invisibility, does that rule out anything?

The United Federation Of Planets, before Deep Space 9?

[Robot Samurai]

Noooooooo! What a cliffhanger to end on. The wait will be horrible, thankfully this wait will be for a better reason than the horrible hand injury. I hope it's a nice holiday and rest for you Rich. :)

[factotum]

This sounds like a strange idea on its premise I admit, and even with his dragon blood granting him an extended life span, I believe his life would have ended by now, and dodging familicide and having it effect his clan seems like an odd stretch that would need filling in.


We've already seen Girard's skeletal corpse in the pyramid, so your theory requires not only the stuff you mention, but that his family put another corpse in there in his place--and why would they do that?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

We've already seen Girard's skeletal corpse in the pyramid, so your theory requires not only the stuff you mention, but that his family put another corpse in there in his place--and why would they do that?

Because they're illusionists, they mislead people.

However, for all the other reasons I'm completely crossing off Girard as an option. It's not him.

(Although familicide might allow a save only an epic level character could nah...)

[Shoelessgdowar]

If this is the north pole, then "southeast ledge" is a pretty useless description of the paladins' location.

Presuming the doors side of the area is located at true North and there are ledges all over the sides, south is the side facing directly across from the doors, and east is to the right when facing the doors, west is to the left when facing the doors, it isn't useful if the area is centered around the pole, but works if the pole is on a specific side.

-----------------------

The Voices are Hermes (Green) and Banjo (Orange). They represent the Lost Quiddity and the Secret New Quiddity.

Hermes knows Banjo only exists because Elan, and an Island full of Goblinoids that picked Banjo & Giggles over the Dark One as their deities, believe in Banjo, ergo asking Banjo about it being fun while it lasted.

Obviously the Western, Northern, and Southern Pantheons don't share info about the Snarl nor the Eastern Pantheon, so the only way for anyone to know the truth is from someone who was in the know, but believed dead, an Eastern Pantheon Member. We know Odin wanted Banjo in his Pantheon, so the North recognizes he exists, which means just as Tiamat can talk with Hel, Hermes can be mentoring the rookie Banjo in secret.

[The Guardian]

Evil cliffhanger! I approve :smallbiggrin:

[Vingelot]

The United Federation Of Planets, before Deep Space 9?

Unless, of course, they conveniently happen to have captured a bird-of-prey. (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092007/)

On topic: Others are indeed not ruled out, especially as they could likely also be using magic items or whatnot to get Greater Invisibility.

[Decius]

That was my first idea too, probably because they have colored speech bubbles. But the IFCC don't seem to want to destroy the world, and while they could have plans that involve the current world and a lot of its inhabitants seizing to exist I don't think they employ anybody noble enough to voluntarily and inescapably die for that cause.


They could easily be evil, they might just need some reason to want the paladins alive.
Stop suppressing their culture.

[D.One]

Unless, of course, they conveniently happen to have captured a bird-of-prey. (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092007/)

Why would the United Federation Of Planets travel across the multiverse to capture Oracle, Huntress or Black Canary?

But maybe you are onto something here... maybe it's Batman!!!

[Petrocorus]

Why would the United Federation Of Planets travel across the multiverse to capture Oracle, Huntress or Black Canary?

C'mon! They are girls and this is Kirk.

[Adeptus]

Crikey! That's a cliffhanger that is.

It's going to be a long two months.

[Breccia]

Anyone else getting the Haley-like feeling the Gate isn't behind any of the doors?

[Petrocorus]

Anyone else getting the Haley-like feeling the Gate isn't behind any of the doors?

Several people raised the hypothesis that the gate is actually in or under Kraagor's statue.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Anyone else getting the Haley-like feeling the Gate isn't behind any of the doors?

Serini was the rogue of the group.

However, this being a good idea relies on there being a hiding place where people are less likely to look than behind the right door, so the gate would almost have to be somewhere else entirely, rather than say under the statue. Because if I were faced with a thousand dungeons to crawl in order to maybe find this gate I'd check places like that first. And at this point the gate being somewhere else entirely would not just be an anticlimax, but also a pretty big waste of resources that could have been spent actually defending the gate.

[CriticalFailure]

Anyone else getting the Haley-like feeling the Gate isn't behind any of the doors?


Several people raised the hypothesis that the gate is actually in or under Kraagor's statue.

Yeah but I think it could really be under any random section of stone. We know the stone is made of rock that can’t be bypassed. For all we know the point of the dungeons is to prevent anyone from using earthquake to tear up the whole valley and find it, because then they’d be dealing with way too many monsters.

[Hopeless]

I think you missed something.
I believe they were attacked after Och-ul mentioned Xykon & co were being tricked.
Is it possible Serini elevated the rift far above them and that's where they're being taken?

[sabremeister]

That book was magnificently done, Giant, thank you!

But that was an illegitimate child of a cliffhanger you gave us

[Rogar Demonblud]

It never ceases to amaze me that after all these years the Giant can still keep us guessing and then hit us with a swerve that nobody saw coming. I don't know how he does it.

I don't either, but I really hope he keeps writing after this so I can continue to enjoy it. And novels wouldn't stress his drawing hand as much (hopefully, he still does his own covers).

[Breccia]

Is it possible

Yes.

Actually, a less snarky answer is "I like that idea". Simply put, the "existing" line at the end there opens a lot of options up, including people coming back through the Rift -- which matches 100% what you said.

[ShadeSwift]

My first assumption was that they are connected to the IFCC, but I wonder if it could be something else...

I know, this was my first thought too. I also thought it maybe had something to do with the three soul splice souls from a while back, but I don't think that's it. There isn't a clear power structure in the IFCC, so none of them would be referring to another as "boss". The soul splice people are even less likely to do this, as are any two gods probably. I'm not sure what that leaves for options though...

[Mariele]

Serini was the rogue of the group.

However, this being a good idea relies on there being a hiding place where people are less likely to look than behind the right door, so the gate would almost have to be somewhere else entirely, rather than say under the statue. Because if I were faced with a thousand dungeons to crawl in order to maybe find this gate I'd check places like that first. And at this point the gate being somewhere else entirely would not just be an anticlimax, but also a pretty big waste of resources that could have been spent actually defending the gate.

Agreed. Who is going to be faced with dozens (hundreds?) of extremely dangerous dungeons and not go "well, we better check everywhere else, just to be sure"? And then what are all those dungeons for, if someone could stumble across the real Gate with blind luck? An absolute waste of resources. We already got the "the Gate is not where you think it is" rug pulled out from under us with the Illusionist--that fit him perfectly, and there were loads of other safeguards in place. Doing the exact same thing with the rogue... it's like a poorly made sequel. ;) That the rogue would instead focus on the money-related answer--make it as strong as money can buy--makes more sense to me.

It's possible that she hid it somewhere else but... seems like a waste of resources. Like, I could put my extremely expensive jewelry in a bank vault that is heavily secured, or I could hide it under the shrubs outside the bank, and that's a better hiding place because nobody's expecting it to be there? Y'know? That sort of line of thinking. Same goes with carrying it on my person, or putting it in a friend's house. Just because it's a less expected place doesn't necessarily mean it's a safer place.

I will say that I used to think that Serini hid the Gate somewhere else, but after I thought about it, I really am quite set on it being behind one of those doors. Do I think there's still a twist involved somehow? Yes. Do I think the statue will end up being important somehow? Yes. And I will say that there is maybe ~something~ to the idea of Serini going to all these lengths and leading everyone to believe that the Gate is in Kraagor's tomb (maybe assuming that whoever is out to assault the gate is using her diary?) and setting up this big defense that makes intuitive sense (brute force as a way of honoring the barbarian, gotcha) and then pulling a rogue move and putting the Gate somewhere else entirely, in a place nobody could accidentally stumble over. Where that would be, I have no idea. I feel like that's a bit different from what Girard pulled and has a chance of being likely. But I still wouldn't bet on it. I'm absolutely against the idea of the Gate being under the statue or anywhere else in the vicinity if it isn't behind one of those doors.

[Doug Lampert]

Unless, of course, they conveniently happen to have captured a bird-of-prey. (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092007/)

On topic: Others are indeed not ruled out, especially as they could likely also be using magic items or whatnot to get Greater Invisibility.

The original series they captured a cloaking device in The Enterprise Incident. So even if they promised real nicely not to use it, they still had it.



Why would the United Federation Of Planets travel across the multiverse to capture Oracle, Huntress or Black Canary?
C'mon! They are girls and this is Kirk.

+1