Gunslinger for Avernus?

[jaappleton]

I’ve asked before, but I believe that it’d now be considered thread necro.

Additionally, since I’ve asked, there’s been plenty of new material released, mostly via recent Unearthed Arcana as well as the new Artificer.

Literally for weeks I’ve been tossing around ideas in my head on this, going back and forth on it over and over again, and as I keep thinking about it, new material keeps getting released to put other ideas into play.

Forgive me, but I feel it pertinent to ask again:

How would I best go about creating a fully functional Gunslinger style PC for an Avernus game?

Here’s what I’ve got so far, as well as some DM house rules:

1. Hand Crossbow being reflavored to a revolver. That’s handled, no big deal.

2. DM is willing to let us take a Fighting Style as a Feat. However, as per usual, you can’t tale a Fighting Style more than once.

3. All Unearthed Arcana available, but I must use the latest version. This means Variant Ranger is allowed. It also means a spell like Arcane Weapon, from the Artificer UA, is not, because it didn’t make it to print.

4. Not absolutely mandatory, but I’d like to be able to create a magic weapon without having to rely on a deal with a Devil. Though.... flavor wise that’s cool as Hell (pun very much intended)

5. Fire Resistance would be very nice

6. DM has granted the green light to be a ranged Paladin, allowing Smites with ranged weapons and Paladins to select Archery Style.

7. DM is willing to create homebrew magic items, templates after existing ones. For example, a Sunblade could be a Sunbow, shooting radiant arrows. And a Mace of Disruption (+2d6 damage to Undead & Fiends) could become a Hand Crossbow of Disruption... >_>

Now, some thoughts I had:

I’ve no doubt that Ranged Paladin likely has the highest damage output and particularly Ancients Paladin at lv7, having resistance to spell damage would be utterly amazing. But it’s specifically *spells*, meaning that any unique ability or enemy augmented weapon damage would not benefit from such resistance. Still, a very, very nice option. However, despite getting the green light, I’d feel a little.... dirty about actually using it. Still, my table isn’t the type to have jealous players, we all play cooperatively, on the same team.

Artificer’s Battle Smith is a very interesting option, granting myself magic items, as well as fire resistance eventually. However, compared to some of the other options, it definitely lags behind in the damage department starting around level 11. But a very good utility options, and all-around solid choice. I hate minionmancy, so the Steel Defender wouldn’t be used at all except it’s Reaction ability.

Ranger’s new Variant version has me a bit excited. Concentration-less Hunter’s Mark is very interesting indeed, as well as the other new goodies available. Though Hunter’s Mark competes with my bonus action, making it a bit finicky in actual use.

Fighter is a hard ‘no’. Just not something I’m at all interested in.

Valor or Swords Bard...? Interesting possibility. Using Magical Secrets to take spells like Holy Weapon, Haste, etc to buff myself is very solid indeed. And they get the lovely Tenser’s Transformation as well. And the lack of fighting style is mitigated by allowing it as a Feat.

Bladesinger Wizard is also possible, for the same reasons above, minus Holy Weapon. But I think Bard offers a bit more in this scenario.

Warlock’s Improved Pact Weapon doesn’t allow you to magically create a +1 Hand Crossbow. And I really, really would rather not just reflavor Eldritch Blast, but.... I do acknowledge that Force damage is exceptionally good, it solves the magic item problem, even Fiend Patron can get me Fire Resistance (though the Patron spells are largely useless in Avernus, though the Warlock vanilla spells are much improved since the PHB’s release). And if I can make a deal with a Devil for the illustrious Illusionists Bracers (repeat a Cantrip you cast as a bonus action), this becomes incredibly deadly. And a Rod of the Pact Keeper can easily be flavored as a revolver. Yet I’ve tried Warlocks before and the Pact Magic thing.... Really irks me. If my DM were to allow me to Eldritch Smite on an Eldritch Blast, however, this could be excellent. Could be flavored as putting a special shell into my revolver. Even without allowing that, it’s still pretty interesting, and some Invocations are just wonderful. Yet EB doesn’t allow use of Sharpshooter, and if I can’t get the Illusionists Bracers than I’m quite a bit behind the other builds in the damage department. I put it about on par with the Artificer, maybe?

So.... Thoughts?

[DracoKnight]

I think the Artillerist Artificer is a really strong option for this, muh dude. It's so good! :smallbiggrin:

[moonfly7]

Artillerists can make they're Aldrich canon a tiny object which the rules say you can hold on your hand, AND FIRE AS A BONUS ACTION. They use your normal spell modifiers, and at level nine they do 3d8 damage. So they're literally a gun at the power levels listed in the DMG, and you can still fire your gun crossbow as an action if you want. So I think it covers you nicely. But I'm biased.
Now, you said you wanted a magic weapon for free: Mark of making variant human can cast the magic weapon spell for a 1 hour duration without concentration. That should fit your bill. Even if you don't use dragon marks, it's easy to flavor as just special human, that's what I do.

[Evaar]

Because you don’t want to deal with minionmancy, I would also say Artillerist. Otherwise I would’ve said Battle Smith with an infused Repeating Hand Crossbow.

[micahaphone]

maybe your tiny flamethrower turret is just a sawn off shotgun that you quick bring up with your off hand and point in the general direction of the enemy.

Or an under the barrel attachment to your regular gun (at that point I'd call it a light crossbow)

[GreyBlack]

I’ve asked before, but I believe that it’d now be considered thread necro.

Additionally, since I’ve asked, there’s been plenty of new material released, mostly via recent Unearthed Arcana as well as the new Artificer.

Literally for weeks I’ve been tossing around ideas in my head on this, going back and forth on it over and over again, and as I keep thinking about it, new material keeps getting released to put other ideas into play.

Forgive me, but I feel it pertinent to ask again:

How would I best go about creating a fully functional Gunslinger style PC for an Avernus game?

Here’s what I’ve got so far, as well as some DM house rules:

1. Hand Crossbow being reflavored to a revolver. That’s handled, no big deal.

2. DM is willing to let us take a Fighting Style as a Feat. However, as per usual, you can’t tale a Fighting Style more than once.

3. All Unearthed Arcana available, but I must use the latest version. This means Variant Ranger is allowed. It also means a spell like Arcane Weapon, from the Artificer UA, is not, because it didn’t make it to print.

4. Not absolutely mandatory, but I’d like to be able to create a magic weapon without having to rely on a deal with a Devil. Though.... flavor wise that’s cool as Hell (pun very much intended)

5. Fire Resistance would be very nice

6. DM has granted the green light to be a ranged Paladin, allowing Smites with ranged weapons and Paladins to select Archery Style.

7. DM is willing to create homebrew magic items, templates after existing ones. For example, a Sunblade could be a Sunbow, shooting radiant arrows. And a Mace of Disruption (+2d6 damage to Undead & Fiends) could become a Hand Crossbow of Disruption... >_>

Now, some thoughts I had:

I’ve no doubt that Ranged Paladin likely has the highest damage output and particularly Ancients Paladin at lv7, having resistance to spell damage would be utterly amazing. But it’s specifically *spells*, meaning that any unique ability or enemy augmented weapon damage would not benefit from such resistance. Still, a very, very nice option. However, despite getting the green light, I’d feel a little.... dirty about actually using it. Still, my table isn’t the type to have jealous players, we all play cooperatively, on the same team.

Artificer’s Battle Smith is a very interesting option, granting myself magic items, as well as fire resistance eventually. However, compared to some of the other options, it definitely lags behind in the damage department starting around level 11. But a very good utility options, and all-around solid choice. I hate minionmancy, so the Steel Defender wouldn’t be used at all except it’s Reaction ability.

Ranger’s new Variant version has me a bit excited. Concentration-less Hunter’s Mark is very interesting indeed, as well as the other new goodies available. Though Hunter’s Mark competes with my bonus action, making it a bit finicky in actual use.

Fighter is a hard ‘no’. Just not something I’m at all interested in.

Valor or Swords Bard...? Interesting possibility. Using Magical Secrets to take spells like Holy Weapon, Haste, etc to buff myself is very solid indeed. And they get the lovely Tenser’s Transformation as well. And the lack of fighting style is mitigated by allowing it as a Feat.

Bladesinger Wizard is also possible, for the same reasons above, minus Holy Weapon. But I think Bard offers a bit more in this scenario.

Warlock’s Improved Pact Weapon doesn’t allow you to magically create a +1 Hand Crossbow. And I really, really would rather not just reflavor Eldritch Blast, but.... I do acknowledge that Force damage is exceptionally good, it solves the magic item problem, even Fiend Patron can get me Fire Resistance (though the Patron spells are largely useless in Avernus, though the Warlock vanilla spells are much improved since the PHB’s release). And if I can make a deal with a Devil for the illustrious Illusionists Bracers (repeat a Cantrip you cast as a bonus action), this becomes incredibly deadly. And a Rod of the Pact Keeper can easily be flavored as a revolver. Yet I’ve tried Warlocks before and the Pact Magic thing.... Really irks me. If my DM were to allow me to Eldritch Smite on an Eldritch Blast, however, this could be excellent. Could be flavored as putting a special shell into my revolver. Even without allowing that, it’s still pretty interesting, and some Invocations are just wonderful. Yet EB doesn’t allow use of Sharpshooter, and if I can’t get the Illusionists Bracers than I’m quite a bit behind the other builds in the damage department. I put it about on par with the Artificer, maybe?

So.... Thoughts?

So I can properly phrase my answer, what type of gunslinger are we talking? Just the fictional archetype or are you basing it on, say, the Pathfinder gunslinger class?

I'm going to assume the latter so that I can sort of focus my build. A character like the Pathfinder gunslinger is all about doing crazy remarkable things with their weapon. They can keep to range while doing pretty preternatural stuff. In this case, might I suggest something like the Rogue? You're super accurate with the weapon (Sneak Attack), have oodles canoodles and toaster strudels of stuff you can do with your attacks (maybe reflavor Crossbow Expert feat?) and it captures that feeling of gritty, down on his luck western hero surviving only by his luck and the quickness of his draw.

Otherwise.... it really depends on what you want the flavor to be. Paladin fits for the White Hat sheriffy type, Alchemist fits for the guy who invented gunpowder in a sword and sorcery setting.

Wizard to my mind doesn't fit great, as gunslingers to my mind are more about pure grit and ingenuity, but going solely by class mechanics I could see how Bladesinger might fit if you squint at it. I'd just want to square that character with the hard on his luck hero type would get the cheat codes to the universe rather than always be one step away from dying in a blaze of glory.

I'm not a fan of the Warlock option, as the other stuff surrounding the Eldritch Smite doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the gunslinger archetype, but selling your soul for gunslinging powers is supported by the archetype.

Same goes for Bard. Hard to be a huge loner archetype when your class abilities are all focused on making everyone else better at their job.

I guess I'd say figure out your character's personality first, then see which road that leads you down.

[micahaphone]

If you wanted eldritch smite, it could be a shot/round with extra powder or a specially made bullet or both.

[jaappleton]

For what kind of Gunslinger?

I’m not trying to replicate the PF Gunslinger.

I’m taking inspiration from the Destiny 2 Gunslinger, with how their special ability can just *wreck* people. If you’re not familiar, essentially they shoot a few shots solar energy (Radiant?) and its enough to one-shot many enemies in the game.

Also Gene Starwind from the anime Outlaw Star. He had a relic of a weapon, called a Caster, which basically had rare weapon shells capable of firing magic spells.

For personality, I’m conflicted. Doc Holiday from the film Tombstone comes to mind. Also race choice plays into this, because there is a certain appeal to Warforged and being Robocop >_> Or even being a bit like Primm Slim from Fallout: New Vegas.

EDIT: It’s been a couple hours or so since I typed this and I just realized that.... I need to thank you. Because I never asked myself that question. I didn’t have a destination to get to, I didn’t have a “What do I actually want to accomplish?” with this build.

And now I do.

[GreyBlack]

For what kind of Gunslinger?

I’m not trying to replicate the PF Gunslinger.

I’m taking inspiration from the Destiny 2 Gunslinger, with how their special ability can just *wreck* people. If you’re not familiar, essentially they shoot a few shots solar energy (Radiant?) and its enough to one-shot many enemies in the game.

Also Gene Starwind from the anime Outlaw Star. He had a relic of a weapon, called a Caster, which basically had rare weapon shells capable of firing magic spells.

For personality, I’m conflicted. Doc Holiday from the film Tombstone comes to mind. Also race choice plays into this, because there is a certain appeal to Warforged and being Robocop >_> Or even being a bit like Primm Slim from Fallout: New Vegas.

EDIT: It’s been a couple hours or so since I typed this and I just realized that.... I need to thank you. Because I never asked myself that question. I didn’t have a destination to get to, I didn’t have a “What do I actually want to accomplish?” with this build.

And now I do.

No problem! Glad I could help!

Based on that description, my mind instantly goes to a Celestial Warlock. Something fun to note is that warlocks technically need an arcane implement to cast spells that have a material component. So, fluff your arcane focus as an ancient firearm of some sort which you use to create your magic.

If you want to go further with this, make it a piece of alien technology that bound itself to your character's DNA while also granting your magical powers. It's your pact weapon for a Great Old One Warlock!

[Evaar]

No problem! Glad I could help!

Based on that description, my mind instantly goes to a Celestial Warlock. Something fun to note is that warlocks technically need an arcane implement to cast spells that have a material component. So, fluff your arcane focus as an ancient firearm of some sort which you use to create your magic.

If you want to go further with this, make it a piece of alien technology that bound itself to your character's DNA while also granting your magical powers. It's your pact weapon for a Great Old One Warlock!

Agreed, Warlock seems like the best pick. Flavor your Pact Magic as some special shots, even, your Eldritch Blast is standard gun blasting.

[1Pirate]

So, you did give Fighter a "hard no" however, since your DM seems to be allowing homebrew, there is Matt Mercer's Gunslinger archetype.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/gunslinger

It's gone through a bit more playtesting than your average homebrew(and probably even more than the most recent UA).

[micahaphone]

Tbh I'm not a huge fan of Matt Mercer's gunslinger, it was done as a port from pathfinder and I feel like it shows. It worked well for CR given their circumstances but if you're starting off fresh I feel like there's better options.

I also had a very dumb idea, Eldritch Smite could be like one of those old school grenade launchers, where you put a grenade-onna-stick down your barrel, and the bullet hits the firing pin on the stick. Imagine a warlock shoving an oversized firecracker into the barrel of his gun and then aiming down the sights at you. Pure chaos.