The identity of the mysterious voices.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I forget the guys name but suppose super paranoid illusionist guy is behind this with all the stuff with the invisibility and what not.

This sounds like a strange idea on its premise I admit, and even with his dragon blood granting him an extended life span, I believe his life would have ended by now, and dodging familicide and having it effect his clan seems like an odd stretch that would need filling in.

So another idea might be nale who was reborn as a demon clansmen. But even I don't know if this is possible.

What ideas do you guys have? give me your best and worst ideas? I've heard kermit was the green voices identity, so we can only go up from here...I hope.

[BasiliskSoldier]

Considering that we've seen Girard Draketooth's very dead skeleton, it's safe to assume he's not one of the two voices. Also the voice doesn't really fit the way he's spoken in flashbacks. Nale has the same issue. Super dead, and the dialogue doesn't really fit his character.

I heard Serini-as-oathspirit floated as an option, which is possible I suppose. Honestly, my money is on 'new characters' until proven otherwise.

[i6uuaq]

Things we know:

They can become invisible.
They can climb cliff faces while carrying paladins.
They seem to be working towards the end goal of unmaking the world?

[Mad Humanist]

Things we know:

They seem to be working towards the end goal of unmaking the world?

We don't know this for certain though it is a plausible interpretation. An alternative is that they are there to protect the gate but that they only get one shot at protecting it before the cease to exist, at which point they are replaced by new spirits.

[Lexible]

I notice that the talk bubbles are not entirely unrelated to the Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies, and Lawful Neutral colors associated with the the outer planes in 1138 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html).

[factotum]

They seem to be working towards the end goal of unmaking the world?

I'm not so sure. For a start, how does kidnapping O-Chul and Lien assist toward that aim? Sure, they said that ceasing to exist would be bad after so long, but there's a significant chance that will happen anyway at this point.

[Flame of Anor]

They're not on Xykon and Redcloak's side. Well, I should say, they're not on Xykon's side or Redcloak's side.
They're not on the Order, the Sapphire Guard, and Thor's side.
They're almost certainly not on the IFCC's side, since the speech bubbles are wrong. And besides, fiends probably wouldn't worry about nonexistence, as the Prime Material is the plane in danger right now.
They're almost certainly not on Hel's side, because that would be a very clunky place to take the narrative.
They're probably not on Tarquin's side, because why would they be?


My guess is that this is yet another—and quite possibly the last—of the mysterious nine sides of the conflict.

[Theshipening]

They're almost certainly not on the IFCC's side, since the speech bubbles are wrong. And besides, fiends probably wouldn't worry about nonexistence, as the Prime Material is the plane in danger right now.
I’m not saying they necessarily are the IFCC, but they’ve been known to use non-fiends as agents (see Nale&co).

[Aidan]

These two hidden figures, which I support calling Kermit and Scooter, have unique speech bubbles. Unique speech bubbles have historically been used for 4 main things, outsiders (IFCC, Celia, Devas, Archons, etc.), Gods (specifically the color matching their quiddity), undead (Xykon, Wights, ghosts), and while under some magical influence or power (Darth V, Oracle, Shojos illusionary head).

Given those classifications if we run through them like a checklist, undead is probably the one easiest to refute, as all undead up to this point have had darker colors prominently featured.

The other 3 options are all a bit more plausible, although if Kermit is a God, the green would indicate that he (she, it?), is from the lost green quiddity, an Olympian, and Scooter would have to be in the other categories.

Personally I'm placing all of my marbles on them being some form of magical defender of the gate, maybe an outsider who has escaped the mind-wiping, and the final line is them knowing that they must see this through to the end.

[Arutema]

My guess would be Invisible Stalkers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/invisibleStalker.htm), a type of naturally invisible elemental.

+ Naturally invisible.
+ Elementals have appeared in the comic before with unusually colored speech bubbles.
+ Can be summoned and given orders by a caster with Summon Monster VII.

- Are seen speaking common here, the SRD says they speak only Auran (the native language of air outsiders).

As for what summoned them? Your guess is as good as mine.

[hroþila]

We don't know this for certain though it is a plausible interpretation. An alternative is that they are there to protect the gate but that they only get one shot at protecting it before the cease to exist, at which point they are replaced by new spirits.
My initial reading was simply that their current task is dangerous and the Boss is not optimistic, not that the task will inherently lead to their undoing.

[mjasghar]

My guess would be Invisible Stalkers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/invisibleStalker.htm), a type of naturally invisible elemental.

+ Naturally invisible.
+ Elementals have appeared in the comic before with unusually colored speech bubbles.
+ Can be summoned and given orders by a caster with Summon Monster VII.

- Are seen speaking common here, the SRD says they speak only Auran (the native language of air outsiders).

As for what summoned them? Your guess is as good as mine.

Air elementals would likely have a blue and white tinged speech bubble

[Riftwolf]

A big problem with trying to guess their intentions at this stage is their dialogue doesn't make sense at this point. Kermit successfully poisoned both the paladins, which looked like what they planned to do, but then they said 'well, that could've gone better', as if knocking both the paladins out wasn't what they wanted. Then they said they were going to do something else, the implication being whatever they did would cease their existence.
I would, however, suggest there's more than two. Kermit is the boss, but there might be more than one Scooter. I'm basing this on the positions of the paladins and their weapons as they're being carried away (assuming a humanoid is carrying them)

[Calavera]

I'm just going to go with my gut: Agents of the Snarl, possibly the remains of the Vector Legion who got dominated. The weird colour text is because they are somewhere between slave and avatar of the Snarl. The major weakness to this theory is that green seems an odd choice of colour for the "boss".

[Kelenius]

Maybe some kind of improved version of unseen servant? Some magically created invisible creature that was ordered to fetch the paladins and will cease to exist (hence the last frame) once the task is complete?

[Lycaon Caesar]

I think it's important to remember they used a blowgun with top-notch paladin-felling poison. That eliminates a lot of monsters.

[Turin_19]

I'm just going to go with my gut: Agents of the Snarl, possibly the remains of the Vector Legion who got dominated. The weird colour text is because they are somewhere between slave and avatar of the Snarl. The major weakness to this theory is that green seems an odd choice of colour for the "boss".

Almost. I think the Boss is actually Redcloak’s niece, thus making it a green speech balloon.

[Calavera]

Almost. I think the Boss is actually Redcloak’s niece, thus making it a green speech balloon.

This "Redcloak's niece" rubbish is not funny, witty or clever. I've never been a regular here so I don't know what incident or series of incidents started it, but it's as of now all over the board and is hackneyed, overplayed and idiotic.

[SlashDash]

I heard Serini-as-oathspirit floated as an option
Why would this be an option? I honestly don't get it.
When they described how the scribbles protected the gates, Soon was specifically mentioned as using the honor of a paladin - hence the oathsworn.

But Serini had nothing to do with it. There's no reason to think they all had oaths, otherwise we'd have seen Girard by now.



Honestly, my money is on 'new characters' until proven otherwise.

This I agree with 100%


Things we know:

They seem to be working towards the end goal of unmaking the world?
Based on what? We have no idea what they were talking about.

It's possible they meant they would cease to exist in the sense that they are magical creatures and are done as soon as their task is finished.

It's possible they are on a good team, but they fear that Xykon would unmake the world or possibly they know that he'll trigger the world unmaking by the gods.
They don't say they want to be unmade, the Boss just said that he thinks that will happen and that it was nice while they lasted.



They're almost certainly not on Hel's side, because that would be a very clunky place to take the narrative.


Not just clunky, it won't make any sense.
Hel doesn't care about the paladins. In fact, if Hel had invisible minions spying on what's going on, she would inform Xykon on what the MITD is doing. Hel wants the other gods to think that Xykon is about to win so they'll reset the world.

Her options are either that or somehow win the council vote. The latter seems extremely unlikely.



My guess is that this is yet another—and quite possibly the last—of the mysterious nine sides of the conflict.
Yes, in general. Except for the word "last" here. My guess is that based on expected length, there would be at least one more new comer to the story.

[Accountant]

This "Redcloak's niece" rubbish is not funny, witty or clever. I've never been a regular here so I don't know what incident or series of incidents started it, but it's as of now all over the board and is hackneyed, overplayed and idiotic.

Without spoiling anything, it was a character in one of the prequel books. I don't think that's who it is, but I also don't think it's such an "idiotic" suggestion that you need to shoot it down so harshly :smallbiggrin:

[CriticalFailure]

Without spoiling anything, it was a character in one of the prequel books. I don't think that's who it is, but I also don't think it's such an "idiotic" suggestion that you need to shoot it down so harshly :smallbiggrin:

I mean, I highly doubt this is Redcloak’s niece but I don’t think her appearing in the last book is completely out of the question. She’d most likely have a normal speech bubble though.

[b_jonas]

Back in the Escape scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html), the MitD has found that he can capture the escaping souls of the powerful evil wizard Ganonron (or the sorcerer Jephton, we don't know which one), and allow him to cast spells. He agreed with Ganonron, or perhaps forced him, to cast the spell that let O-Chul and Vaarsuvius ESCAPE.

The MitD has hired escaped souls again, and they're the Mysterious Voices. The MitD wants O-Chul as company, and asked the souls to bring him (as well as Lien) to him. He doesn't want Xykon or Redcloak to know about any of this, so he couldn't just ask them or Oona. The souls are invisible and so can be stealthy, so they're suitable for this task. They used poison darts to knock O-Chul out, perhaps because they're evil or because it would be difficult for them to take two paladins in a fight without such a surprise attack. But the MitD knows that O-Chul is good company even while paralyzed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) and his saving throws are good, so he accepted the poison dart plan.

(Don't take this speculation too seriously, it's almost certainly wrong.)

[Calavera]

I mean, I highly doubt this is Redcloak’s niece but I don’t think her appearing in the last book is completely out of the question. She’d most likely have a normal speech bubble though.

I am aware of the existence of RN in SoD and can extrapolate that at one time some person(s) made some threads that suggested RN would have an important role coming up, which then got mocked, copied and turned into a meme. Fair enough, but now it's all over the place, been going on far too long, and everybody who brings up "Redcloaks Niece" still thinks they're being clever when they're actually being repetitively eye-rollingly annoying.

[KorvinStarmast]

This "Redcloak's niece" rubbish is not funny, witty or clever...{snip}but it's as of now all over the board and is hackneyed, overplayed and {scrub} I agree. In about the same league as the Banjo stuff.

That said, I believe that with the call back to Hilgya, Rich opened the door for Redcloak's niece to show up somewhere in the last book as his past coming back to haunt him, or for him to confront his past based on his various errors and sins while he was so focused on The Plan.

This is hardly the place for her to be introduced.

[factotum]

I am aware of the existence of RN in SoD and can extrapolate that at one time some person(s) made some threads that suggested RN would have an important role coming up, which then got mocked, copied and turned into a meme.

I think it was more that people would seriously ask "So, is that Redcloak's niece?" every time anybody vaguely non-human showed up--they were suggesting it for Therkla for some time, despite her being an acknowledged half-orc and thus not a goblin in any way. Now people just jokingly suggest it.

[Calavera]

Now people just jokingly suggest it.

I know I've derailed the thread a bit and I'm sorry so this will be my last word on this subject in this thread. But the people jokingly suggesting it is exactly the problem when it's done at the repetitive volume that it is done here.

[CriticalFailure]

At this point Redcloak’s niece is so memed that no one will see it coming when she does show up.

[Malfarian]

I'm sure it's been said already, but I think it's the two bounty hunters from down south, yes the speech bubbles are wrong-ish, but I'm sure that'll be explained humorously in the first panel of the next strip. The "What was boss?" makes me think of them.

[littlebum2002]

This "Redcloak's niece" rubbish is not funny, witty or clever. I've never been a regular here so I don't know what incident or series of incidents started it, but it's as of now all over the board and is hackneyed, overplayed and idiotic.

Yeah we need to go back to That Guy With A Halberd, the original forum meme.

[LeMossBoss]

I really like the idea that the green voice - Kermit, I suppose - is a surviving Eastern Pantheon god or demigod. The orange voice makes that far more confusing, though.

My original thought was it was Lirian and Dorukan, now in a spirit form, but Dorukan's color scheme is yellow and they were equals while alive, which would make the 'Boss' line weird. Same with Serini - I'd imagine she'd have an orange bubble, and I imagine her to be the unbossed type, so I doubt she's Scooter.

Personally, my bets are on new characters, possibly from inside the Snarl. The reveal of there being a world inside the rifts has been such an intriguing undercurrent this whole time, and I figure the Giant will want to pick that thread up ASAP in the last book.

Also, besides undead/gods/outsiders/magical effects, colored speech bubbles have been used for dragons (Empress of Blood, the Mother Dragon that sparked Familicide, etc.), though I doubt that's relevant information.

[CriticalFailure]

Yeah we need to go back to That Guy With A Halberd, the original forum meme.

Clearly That Guy With A Halberd is Redcloak's niece.

[Concept]

I speculate it's the IFCC, mainly because they just recently were featured in a strip as preparing to take action. Also, capturing the paladins leaves their options open, instead of just killing them. They would rather control the game-pieces instead of just remove them. I didn't put too much thought into the speech bubbles, but this thread's speculation there is consistent with IFCC being an option.

I admit the "not existing" part is problematic, but it doesn't make much sense for any theories, at the moment. At least they are aware that existence is at stake, and are making some kind of drastic changes. That much is compatible with IFCC.

[Turin_19]

I know I've derailed the thread a bit and I'm sorry so this will be my last word on this subject in this thread. But the people jokingly suggesting it is exactly the problem when it's done at the repetitive volume that it is done here.


True. By the way, I just brought that joke up so you could enlighten us the way you did it. I really appreciate.

The overuse of RC’s niece in the forum has been a constant trouble in my mind for a while, and this week it has reached the place of utmost importance. I could barely get any other work done in this time. Today it was crashing my thoughts from the moment I woke up. Gladly, you and I have been able to work together to spread out the relevant concerns.

For everyone else, please follow Calavera’s and my own example: RC’s niece is not to be played with. Please understand how important this is in all our daily lives.

Any other jokes or theories are permitted. Yet.

[Synesthesy]

I think that the voices belong to some kind of summoned creature (maybe of an elemental type) that will return to non existance once their task has come to an end. Their task may be something they have waited for, or maybe the boss is only sad.
The creature should be elemental because their colors don't match any other known type (no undead as they are dark, no outsiders as they should match their aligment).

The only other things that comes to my mind are an invisible green and a red slaad. But I can't think of a reason they should do what they did.

[Schroeswald]

While I have no clue whatsoever what they could be I’ll say that I doubt Kermit is an Eastern god (besides the fact it’s be hard for one to survive), because his speech bubble doesn’t match up with how the gods (including the eastern ones), speech bubbles have been shown, with green words as opposed to the black we’ve already seen.

[SlashDash]

The creature should be elemental because their colors don't match any other known type (no undead as they are dark, no outsiders as they should match their aligment).

They don't match elementals either (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)

[monomer]

Things we know:

They can become invisible.
They can climb cliff faces while carrying paladins.
They seem to be working towards the end goal of unmaking the world?

Wait, who have we seen that can carry a load up a cliff without leaving tracks in the snow? That's right, this is the MITD's dad and his hench-monster.

More seriously, the green and orangish-red speech bubbles did immediately suggest Eastern and Western pantheons to me. Not gods, since all of the Western Gods have been killed (and even one managed to survive, I'm not sure how they would last through the time between worlds without any worshipers) and God's speech bubbles have black borders.

They could be a an immortal being associated with the pantheon, though, as their speech bubbles are similar to the Bureaucratic Deva (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html) that processes Roy's afterlife application, or an Eastern god's non-deific offspring that somehow managed to survive.

[The Pilgrim]

The speech bubbles of our new mystery guests match those of the Empress of Blood and Enor. Those are definitely draconic speech bubbles. But I'm not going to call "half-dragon" yet, as I suppose The Giant would use the same style for any other fearsome monster being.

The orange one, let's call him "Ernie", has a big size. It's supposed to be carryng the two paladins, and the positions of their bodies suggest a far avobe-human breadth. It seems to be large enough to qualify for at least "Huge" size. It also seems to have at least four limbs, given that it's carrying the paladins and their weapons in different "hands".

"Bert", on the orther hand, seems to be tiny, given the angle of attack of the darts. The Giant has used the "small and clever boss, huge and simple sidequick" trope before.

They both seem to be able to fly.

They are from the Prime. They aren't outsiders. Otherwise they wouldn't fear about ceasing to exist, as the outer planes are off-limits for the Snarl.

I do not think they are related to the IFCC, because they know about the Snarl, and the IFCC doesn't relays that kind of info to their agents. They haven't told Qarr, for instance. Sabine also told Qarr that she didn't know half of what was going on either. IFCC has been shown to operate under a "need to know" basis.

The obvious speculation is that they belong to whatever group is in charge of defending the Gate. They showed up right after O-Chul commented that he was concerned about how they were going to find the Gate themselves. According to Elan's Guide to Understanding the Rules of Drama, the appropiate thing in that situation is for the Gate Defenders to show up and carry them prisoner to the Gate's whereabouts.

We also know that the full story of the Scribbels has to be disclosed to the readers. And the only ones dramatically equipped to do so are either Serini or her allies.

The fact that they seem to be Monsters, suits the theme of the Gate's defenses. Serini populated Kraagor's tomb with the most powerful monsters in the World. And then she continued adventuring. It makes sense for her to have left a few zookeepers, and for the zookepers to be monsters themselves.

So, that's my speculation.

[Roland Itiative]

Why would this be an option? I honestly don't get it.
When they described how the scribbles protected the gates, Soon was specifically mentioned as using the honor of a paladin - hence the oathsworn.

But Serini had nothing to do with it. There's no reason to think they all had oaths, otherwise we'd have seen Girard by now.

Well, the two characters use rogue-like tactics to subdue the paladins (stealth, poison, somewhat underhanded diplomacy), and they seem to be somewhat related to that Gate specifically. So, it stands to reason that they could be something related to Serini. Not an oathsworn specifically, but some other of creature or transformation that would serve as Serini's own thematic defense mechanism for the Gate, on top of Kragoor's brute strength approach.

It would also be a nice echo of Haley's shell game mentality during the Azure City siege. Serini literally made her Gate an ostensible giant shell game, but being a rogue, why would she play it straight, instead of cheating in a way that guarantees invaders will always lose, even if they're extremely lucky?

So yeah, my guess is that those are Serini's Gate guardians (the leader may somehow be Serini herself, but that's beyond the point), and that both the multiple Gates and the information on her diary are diversion tactics.

[factotum]

True. By the way, I just brought that joke up so you could enlighten us the way you did it. I really appreciate.

Welp, that's another sarcasm detector exploded from overload--you any idea how expensive those things are?

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

Guys, this is super easy.

Lorien.

The hint is when paladin chick asks Who are you? The question of the Vorlons, And then asks What do you want, the question of the Shadows.

The whole comic is one long Babylon 5 metaphor using D&D rule/world.

We know that the MitD is a vorlon, with the umbrella being his encounter suit. (we know it is a vorlon and not a shadow because everyone who seems him instantly knows him, a trait of vorlons, not shadows. Not to mention where he risks his own personal safety to save others key to the story, and of course, the fact that he follows the rules and speaks cryptically)


Snarl is of course, the shadow.

And the invisible thing is Lorien, who is immortal, and is going to end the story of taking ending the war and taking snarl and MitD away from this world.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Considering that we've seen Girard Draketooth's very dead skeleton, it's safe to assume he's not one of the two voices. Also the voice doesn't really fit the way he's spoken in flashbacks. Nale has the same issue. Super dead, and the dialogue doesn't really fit his character.

I heard Serini-as-oathspirit floated as an option, which is possible I suppose. Honestly, my money is on 'new characters' until proven otherwise.

Yeah, I wasn't being entirely serious about it being jirard. Though if he were alive, putting a fake corpse or skeleton in a tomb wouldn't be unreasonable. Faking ones death and masquerading around as a non legendary spell caster wouldn't be impossible.

The only point "in favor of" (but not really) of it being a fake skeleton is the strip here.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html

Red cloak admits he didn't go out of his way to get 3 skeletons that looksed like xykon, and that the 3 pendants were just so he could tell them apart. Now imagine girard had a similar idea, at least before he died, and he died else where. So even if it isn't his skeleton, he could easily have kicked the bucket in a less than ideal place.

So while it looks like I'm disagreeing with you, I'm actually not.

As to nale being reborn as a demon, I don't buy it much either. He would have no reason to spare the paladins. unless its a complicated convoluted idea only nale could come up with, but even so, not buying it.







But I'll just concede as much that I prefer jirard had died of old age, its not him and move on.

[Fish]

Suppose Kermit and Scooter are there to defend the Gate.

How do they do this? Well, they go out and look for creatures they can pop into the dungeon to defend it for them.

Like a couple of fairly-powerful paladins.

Maybe they have the power to buff up the paladins, or keep them pointed at the enemy somehow. Sort of like the Xykon vs O-Chul battle, except where O-Chul has an ally, all his armor, and possibly buffs.

Imagine how epic that would be. O-Chul is meant to endure; maybe that means losing over and over to Xykon in order to hold him off. That would be the ultimate test of a paladin’s sense of duty.

“Xykon, I’m here to bargain.”

[leveebreakage]

The speech bubbles of our new mystery guests match those of the Empress of Blood and Enor.

Oh, good catch! I hadn't thought of that connection between EoB and Enor, but you're completely right, that does seem to be a pattern. And there are no footprints trailing behind these two; that makes it seem plausible that they might be flying or hovering. Unless I'm missing something obvious your theory makes sense so far.

[Fish]

Enor is blue; Kermit is green.

[CriticalFailure]

Can anyone think of reasons powers from other planes or Tiamat would be involving themselves that make sense?

[Petrocorus]

It would also be a nice echo of Haley's shell game mentality during the Azure City siege. Serini literally made her Gate an ostensible giant shell game, but being a rogue, why would she play it straight, instead of cheating in a way that guarantees invaders will always lose, even if they're extremely lucky?

I do believe there is a shell game in effect on this Gate.



Lorien.

The hint is when paladin chick asks Who are you? The question of the Vorlons, And then asks What do you want, the question of the Shadows. ...
I would totally be behind this.


The speech bubbles of our new mystery guests match those of the Empress of Blood and Enor. Those are definitely draconic speech bubbles. But I'm not going to call "half-dragon" yet, as I suppose The Giant would use the same style for any other fearsome monster being.

I was going to post this.
The speech bubble pattern is one color for the bubble and the letters and a lighter shade of the same color for the background. And so far, we've seen this only on dragons and half-dragons. And the bubble's colour matches the dragon's color.

So i would concur those should be draconic characters, one from a green bloodline and one from maybe a mixed bloodline.

Now, who are they working with/for? So far, i have no clear idea.
The most realistic (IMHO) hypothesis i've seen:
- Serini.
- IFCC. They are not Evil outsiders but could work for them anyway. Not my favorite hypothesis.
- Some pro-End of the world god(s), from one or several pantheon.
- Some anti-End of the World god(s), because we're not sure of those two guy's intent.
- Tiamat, because they are draconic IMHO, and she was one of the few gods to have spoken with TDO. And we don't know which side of the god's debate she's on.
- A completely new party. A bit late in the story for this, but possible.


Can anyone think of reasons powers from other planes or Tiamat would be involving themselves that make sense?
For Tiamat:
- Being in leagues with Loki and Thor and probably some others to get TDO to negotiate and help them to close the rifts.
- Taking revenge on V for the familicide.
- Taking revenge on the IFCC for the familicide.
- Wanting for some reason to get the world destroyed. Maybe wanting for some reason to help Hel.

[Flame of Anor]

Yeah we need to go back to That Guy With A Halberd, the original forum meme.

Oh, that takes me back.

[Riftwolf]

While checking the Magic Mouth in the Oracle's valley, I actually found green voiced and orange voiced characters. The Knight and Knave of the Test of the Mind!

[understatement]

Don't think literal Eastern gods would use two poison darts to kidnap some paladins.

If these [new] characters wanted the world destroyed, they would've killed the paladins instead of abducting them.

I'm guessing the reason they abducted the paladins instead of talking to them is because -- like Lien said -- technically they can't be trusted. Operating under "show not tell" here.

If they meant harm to the paladins, they wouldn't have brought their weapons along.

...

Still guessing Serini. It's not too unlikely to think she's changed quite a bit since the fall of the original OOTS.

[skim172]

Things we know:

They can become invisible.
They can climb cliff faces while carrying paladins.
They seem to be working towards the end goal of unmaking the world?

Playing devil's advocate here -
1. Anyone in Stickverse can become invisible, with the use of an accessory, spell, or beverage, which are purchasable at the appropriate retailers. We can't know if invisibility is an attribute or ability that is innate to the nature of the two entities in question.
Not knowing much about the Paladin class - do high level Paladins have some ability that can detect or cancel certain types of invisibility? That might rule some things out.
2. Are they climbing a cliff face? I initially assumed they were flying with Soon and Lirian in tow. It could mean they're winged creatures, or that they can float. Or that they have cash and access to the right store for flying items. They could be in Wonder Woman's invisible jet.
3. Their words don't necessarily mean that they want to unmake the Universe. I think it could mean they are enacting a risky plan re: the Gate which has a high possibility of failure resulting in unmaking the Universe.

So we actually know very little about them. We can assume it's at least two people - or maybe it's a hydra with different voices.


Throwing out a completely random theory put there:
It's Dorukan and Lirian, returned to this plane via some magicky, spirity hijinks, carrying out a long-awaited plan set by some or all of the Order of the Scribble.

See, because one of them wore green and the other wore yellow ...

Alternatively, one of them is Ryan Reynolds and the other is Sinestro.

[Riftwolf]

Could be the paladins are being removed now because Lien just confirmed the Order are on their way. Though why their arrival would equate to the end of existence is unclear.

[Jay R]

Things we know:

They can become invisible.
They can climb cliff faces while carrying paladins.
They seem to be working towards the end goal of unmaking the world?

We don't know that they are working towards the end goal of unmaking the world. Perhaps they are created beings that disappear when they complete their assignment. We only know that they believe that they will stop existing soon.


I really like the idea that the green voice - Kermit, I suppose - is a surviving Eastern Pantheon god or demigod.

I don't believe that for purely story reasons. We have set up that Durkon's quest needs him to get help from Redcloak, after being on opposite sides throughout the story.

If there is still an Eastern god left, then that isn't necessary, and a major tension is released for no good reason.

[The Pilgrim]

While checking the Magic Mouth in the Oracle's valley, I actually found green voiced and orange voiced characters. The Knight and Knave of the Test of the Mind!

Good catch. Unfortunately, the background of the speech balloons of those characters is white, not a lighter shade. Also, neither of the two mystery guests seems to be always lying, like the Green Guy from the Test.

[Jay R]

Once you realize what Vaarsuvius's gender and the MitD's species are, it's obvious who they are, and why their speech balloons had to be green and orange. I've been waiting for them to show up for over 100 strips.

[Roland Itiative]

Well, when it comes to their dialogue, there are three lines that give us hints of what their goals are:

"Well. That could've gone better."

"*sigh* I guess we're finally doing this, huh?"

"[Existing has been] fun while it lasted, right?"

The first line doesn't make a lot of sense if it's referring to their encounter with the paladins. That seems to have gone incredibly well, probably as well as it could. They captured both paladins, without alerting the bugbears or Xykon, and without any casualties on their side. So, instead of talking about the paladin encounter, they must be talking about the whole situation surrounding the area, namely the fact that someone is sistematically looking for the Gate, with nefarious purposes in mind. The Gate defenses could defintiely have "gone better" than they did so far against Team Evil.

The second line heavily suggests some plan that has existed for a while, as the word "finally" implies. So, assuming those voices belong indeed to Gate guardians who are seeing their defenses fail, they're probably preparing to put in motion some contingency put in place for just that kind of situation.

The third line, when connected to the second, implies this plan will lead to destruction for our mistery characters, at the very least. They don't seem to be after the destruction of the world, but simply resigned to it, since perhaps destroying the last Gate is preferable to losing it to Evil.

While other interpretations, such as them being agents of the gods or characters from the Eastern continent are not impossible, I feel like the interpretation that they're probably Gate guardians is the only one to make sense of the entire dialogue.

P.S. It's also interesting that they're concerned about the bugbears specifically spotting them. Not Xykon, a lich with a lot of bonuses to perception checks, or Redcloaks, a near-epic cleric who probably has a ton of wisdom, but the bugbears. This seems to imply that the bugbears are uniquely equipped to detect them, but I don't know what to take away from this.

[skim172]

Well, when it comes to their dialogue, there are three lines that give us hints of what their goals are:

"Well. That could've gone better."

"*sigh* I guess we're finally doing this, huh?"

"[Existing has been] fun while it lasted, right?"

The first line doesn't make a lot of sense if it's referring to their encounter with the paladins. That seems to have gone incredibly well, probably as well as it could. They captured both paladins, without alerting the bugbears or Xykon, and without any casualties on their side. So, instead of talking about the paladin encounter, they must be talking about the whole situation surrounding the area, namely the fact that someone is sistematically looking for the Gate, with nefarious purposes in mind. The Gate defenses could defintiely have "gone better" than they did so far against Team Evil.

The second line heavily suggests some plan that has existed for a while, as the word "finally" implies. So, assuming those voices belong indeed to Gate guardians who are seeing their defenses fail, they're probably preparing to put in motion some contingency put in place for just that kind of situation.

The third line, when connected to the second, implies this plan will lead to destruction for our mistery characters, at the very least. They don't seem to be after the destruction of the world, but simply resigned to it, since perhaps destroying the last Gate is preferable to losing it to Evil.

While other interpretations, such as them being agents of the gods or characters from the Eastern continent are not impossible, I feel like the interpretation that they're probably Gate guardians is the only one to make sense of the entire dialogue.

P.S. It's also interesting that they're concerned about the bugbears specifically spotting them. Not Xykon, a lich with a lot of bonuses to perception checks, or Redcloaks, a near-epic cleric who probably has a ton of wisdom, but the bugbears. This seems to imply that the bugbears are uniquely equipped to detect them, but I don't know what to take away from this.
First line could perhaps mean that "They" were hoping to sleep the pair of them and spirit them away without any confrontation. But O-Chul's constitution delayed the poison taking effect, which alerted Lien and it took longer than they hoped.

I also think the third line isn't necessarily indicative of their goals. They may be recognizing the possibilities, rather than declaring their intentions. It could simply be a wry, cynical joke. Like a sort of gallows humor - "No chance of us living to old age, then."

As for the bugbears line - maybe they said that because there are a lot of bugbears around? Sort of a "don't get seen by the guards" kind of sentiment.

[Chronos]

The problem with them being agents of Serini is, why the poison darts? They at least know that O-Chul and Lien are paladins, and presumably a lot more about them. They should know that they're allies. So why not just lead off with talking to them? That seems like a much more reliable plan than the one they went with.

[Roland Itiative]

The problem with them being agents of Serini is, why the poison darts? They at least know that O-Chul and Lien are paladins, and presumably a lot more about them. They should know that they're allies. So why not just lead off with talking to them? That seems like a much more reliable plan than the one they went with.
Leverage. If they're Serini followers, they were probably instructed to be specially wary of paladins. Serini, while not as extreme as Girard, still seemed way closer to him than she was to Soon, and possibly shares some of his fears that Soon would try to strong-arm control of the other Gates away from them at some point. Now that they incapacitated the paladins, they can hear them out on their terms, while the paladins are in a total disadvantage in case they try to fight or escape.

And the fact they overheard the conversation and know that there are reinforcements arriving in two days make this the perfect time to either heard what their reasoning is, or get rid of them before an unknown party arrives.

[Ranzear]

First post of the #1189 discussion thread noted the orange was the same as Roy's Archon, and the behavior we've seen of an archon would match the lines, but RA had black text instead of orange (this may be a simple art change though.)

[BasiliskSoldier]

My first instinct was honestly Redcloak's Niece. These forums are rotting my brain, I swear.

My bets would be on these characters representing a new faction (Gate Guardians or Agents of the Gods, probably), somewhere on the Good-Neutral spectrum. I'd also bet on them being some sort of monstrous humanoid, based on the speech patterns.

[WolvesbaneIII]

My first instinct was honestly Redcloak's Niece. These forums are rotting my brain, I swear.

My bets would be on these characters representing a new faction (Gate Guardians or Agents of the Gods, probably), somewhere on the Good-Neutral spectrum. I'd also bet on them being some sort of monstrous humanoid, based on the speech patterns.

And in the event it is his niece, no one will guess due to fear of being called a fool or some other thing.

I say, if you have some piece of evidence, be it physical or circumstantial of something, throw it out there. Even if it is in jest, it will all right so long as its in a jesting context. Then if it is true, you can say "ah ha! I was right all along!"

Suppose the voices are color coded as a red herring? Roys dad used a color speech bubble before, as the spirit during the trial right? At least I think he did.

It could be elans dad and troops doing the all important "swoop" he alluded to before, using the paladins as bait.

Though I'd likely think its a new character and his or her attendant.

[Emanick]

My guess is that they're Serini's followers - probably some invisible magical beings with a mayfly-like lifespan (like higher-level, combat-capable unseen servants), or some other reason magical reason why they will soon pop out of existence - but it wouldn't surprise me if they were IFCC minions, given the recent foreshadowing about the "vessel." That said, I can't think why the IFCC's minions would expect to pop out of existence anytime soon.

Less likely, but still possible, is that they're an entirely new faction. I'm still not sure we've made it to nine sides - there's (1) the Order of the Stick/Sapphire Guard/Thor and the other pro-world-existing gods, (2) Xykon, (3) Redcloak, TDO and the goblinoids, (4) the IFCC, (5) Greg, Hel, and the other gods who want the world destroyed, (6) the Linear Guild, (7) the Vector Legion, and (8) the Order of the Scribble - well, what was left of them. You could plausibly make the case that some of these could be broken up - Girard could easily be on a different "side" than, say, Soon, maybe Redcloak will split from TDO and become his own "side," and maybe the gods who want the world destroyed but don't want Hel to triumph count as their own side. Perhaps the MitD counts as a "side" (though he doesn't seem very interested in the gates). Perhaps Loki has his own side, rather than being aligned with Thor. But then again, maybe none of this is the case, and we're still at eight (or even fewer, if you consider the Scribblers to be aligned with another "side," the Vector Legion to be uninvolved, or the Linear Guild to be on the "side" of the IFCC). In that case, we might need a new player at the table. I trust Rich not to make the story too cluttered.

It could also honestly be a group working with Redcloak's niece. It's a weird way for her to be introduced, but it could be workable - her family has history with paladins, after all. And she has a lot of potential to contribute to the story.


Guys, this is super easy.

Lorien.

The hint is when paladin chick asks Who are you? The question of the Vorlons, And then asks What do you want, the question of the Shadows.

The whole comic is one long Babylon 5 metaphor using D&D rule/world.

We know that the MitD is a vorlon, with the umbrella being his encounter suit. (we know it is a vorlon and not a shadow because everyone who seems him instantly knows him, a trait of vorlons, not shadows. Not to mention where he risks his own personal safety to save others key to the story, and of course, the fact that he follows the rules and speaks cryptically)


Snarl is of course, the shadow.

And the invisible thing is Lorien, who is immortal, and is going to end the story of taking ending the war and taking snarl and MitD away from this world.

I'm glad I'm (just barely) far enough in Babylon 5 that none of this is a spoiler (well, unless your last sentence is some sort of hint about how Lorien resolves the plot), but in future you might want to put this in spoiler tags.

That said, I appreciate the references. I too noticed how Lien's questions happened to be the two main questions in Babylon 5. Since I know Rich is a huge fan of the show, maybe that's intentional.

[CriticalFailure]

I'll be honest, I don't see many ways Redcloak's niece could be introduced that would actually make sense, but I really hope she becomes part of the story.

[Mitth'raw'nuruo]

I would totally be behind this.

The most realistic (IMHO) hypothesis i've seen


I mean, Rich's Forum handle is "Giant in the playground". Which is how all the first ones are referenced as Giants in the playground.




I'm glad I'm (just barely) far enough in Babylon 5 that none of this is a spoiler (well, unless your last sentence is some sort of hint about how Lorien resolves the plot), but in future you might want to put this in spoiler tags.

That said, I appreciate the references. I too noticed how Lien's questions happened to be the two main questions in Babylon 5. Since I know Rich is a huge fan of the show, maybe that's intentional.



I.....

....

the show went off air in 1998. Most of the actors are dead. Andreas Katsulas, Stephen Furst, Jerry Doyle, Richard James Biggs II, Jeffrey Conaway, Robert Michael O'Hare Jr. never gave it a thought to put spoiler tags up for a 20 year old product.

Edit: A lot more then that have passed on. I didn't realize how many (https://youtu.be/0w2pK_uBpXQ?t=3222).


There are lots of B5 references in the comic, I've no doubt they are intentional. I believe the Giant is on record as saying if we saw MitD, we would all know it. Which is how we know it is a vorlon, and not a shadow.

Once you're done with B5, I would recommend you look by the B5 Mirror universe story. Totally not cannon, but if they were to do a reboot, they could follow this fan fiction all the way, it is written at least as well as the show, and follows it episode by episode. Amazing work really.

What makes it different? The Minbari never realize who they share souls with. They don't stop at the line.

[factotum]

I.....

....

the show went off air in 1998.

Yeah, I agree...asking for a 20-year-old show to be spoilered is taking things a bit far.

[Emanick]

Yeah, I agree...asking for a 20-year-old show to be spoilered is taking things a bit far.

When I was a teenager, I would have agreed with this. As an adult, I realize that not everybody who will enjoy a given story finds out about it (and has time to read/watch it) in a timely manner, and so putting expiration dates on spoilers is a bit arbitrary. The plot twists of a book published in 1975 aren't any less important than they would be if the book was published in 2015, and most people read and watch plenty of things that came out more than, say, five years ago.

Now, obviously, there's also a cost to spoilering things. In situations where it takes significant effort to do so, or to open the spoilers, maybe it's not worthwhile to do so. But it's extremely easy to do both on this forum, so I personally feel like it's a reasonable norm to uphold - with some exceptions, like references that are so ubiquitous that most people here are already familiar with them (LOTR, Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc.).

[Baskineli]

I logged in after several years just to add my two cents.

I think they are related to the Thing In The Dark.

They are invisible (as he probably is).
They strike out as some sort of outsiders (as he probably is).
They care about O-chul (as he does/did).

And something about subtle sabotage of Xykon and Redcloak work (just like the Thing In The Dark did for a little bit a long while back).

[SlashDash]

Not an oathsworn specifically
I was talking about oathsworn specifically.

People assumed that because of the speech color seemed to look like Soon's.
But that isn't a scribble thing since none of the others looked similar.


And surely by the same logic, none of Soon's followers (the saphire guard) had similar colors.

[Theshipening]

They are invisible (as he probably is).


The Thing in the Dark isn’t invisible (or at least not all the time.) People have commented on his appearance (disgusting, fascinating, horrifying, ...) a bunch of times.

[Raimun]

Right now, I'm convinced, unless proven wrong, that the ones who kidnapped O-Chul and Lien belong to Serini's faction. One of the two mysterious voices might belong to Serini or not. The "green" voice*, ie. "Boss" could be Serini but that's still uncertain.

Why am I convinced?

1) It's the location. Who else would be there? This is the fifth Gate and Serini built its defenses. It's reasonable to assume that she's committed to she spend the rest of her days as the guardian of the Gate, just like her four remaining party members:

- Lirian guarded her forest Gate. Check.
- Dorukan guarded his mountain Gate. Check.
- Soon guarded his sky Gate. Check.
- Girard guarded his desert Gate. Check.

All of them (except Girard) were around until the time of Team Evil and/or OotS:
Xykon personally fought Lirian, a long lived elf and Dorukan, who was an old man and both were 100% alive.
Soon died but left paladins and could fight as an oathspirit.
Girard died of old age but still left relatives to guard the desert Gate until Vaarsuvius cast Familicide.
All had working and active defenses until Team Evil and/or The Order demolished them.
All of them had a host of underlings as well, except Dorukan, who had only Celia, her two elemental co-workers and... maybe some other guys?

Serini must be as committed as the rest of her party, if not more. She was the one who suggested that each of the remaining five members would guard one of the five Gates. It would only make sense to have invisible stealth masters overseeing the dungeons full of strong monsters. Especially since the dungeons are in plain sight and anyone who got around would be curious of the countless doors.

2) The two paladins were beaten by a combination of stealth and poison. Serini is a rogue. Do the math.

3) Halflings live longer than humans do and since Dorukan was alive about six months before The Order fought Xykon at Dorukan's Gate, Serini could be alive. Even if she isn't, her faction of Gate guardians can be alive. Personally, I'd wager a guess that she's alive and guarding her Gate because of story telling related reasons.

Now, why did they target the paladins and not Team Evil? The following is my speculation::
Since all Gate guardians had this device that told them which Gates were intact or broken, Serini would know that the Gates are falling rabidly and someone is obviously behind this.
She may or may not know what Team Evil is capable of but she might still wager that if someone could defeat all the other Gate guardians, she is outmatched. If something can defeat the Epic Level spell casters Dorukan and Lirian, Soon and his fortress city of paladins (Serini must have heard of Azure City) and outsmart Girard, what could she, a halfling Rogue, do about it?
The answer is: play time, collect information and find help. I guess Serini wants to interrogate the paladins, find out who they are working for and why and maybe ally with them if she likes what she hears. What triggered the capture of the paladins was the Vaarsuvius' Sending spell and the following conversation. Serini wants to know who will be coming in there in two days.


Of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this but at this point of time, Serini and/or Co. seems like the most probable option. My second guess is merely that it's someone who wants to evade the notice of both Team Evil and Serini and/or Co. This could be almost anyone, even a new character.

[Petrocorus]

the show went off air in 1998. Most of the actors are dead. Andreas Katsulas, Stephen Furst, Jerry Doyle, Richard James Biggs II, Jeffrey Conaway, Robert Michael O'Hare Jr. never gave it a thought to put spoiler tags up for a 20 year old product.
I really didn't know there was such an hecatomb. I knew for Katsulas, and maybe Doyle. But the others! They were not even that old.

[Emanick]

Right now, I'm convinced, unless proven wrong, that the ones who kidnapped O-Chul and Lien belong to Serini's faction. One of the two mysterious voices might belong to Serini or not. The "green" voice*, ie. "Boss" could be Serini but that's still uncertain.

Why am I convinced?

1) It's the location. Who else would be there? This is the fifth Gate and Serini built its defenses. It's reasonable to assume that she's committed to she spend the rest of her days as the guardian of the Gate, just like her four remaining party members:

- Lirian guarded her forest Gate. Check.
- Dorukan guarded his mountain Gate. Check.
- Soon guarded his sky Gate. Check.
- Girard guarded his desert Gate. Check.

All of them (except Girard) were around until the time of Team Evil and/or OotS:
Xykon personally fought Lirian, a long lived elf and Dorukan, who was an old man and both were 100% alive.
Soon died but left paladins and could fight as an oathspirit.
Girard died of old age but still left relatives to guard the desert Gate until Vaarsuvius cast Familicide.
All had working and active defenses until Team Evil and/or The Order demolished them.
All of them had a host of underlings as well, except Dorukan, who had only Celia, her two elemental co-workers and... maybe some other guys?

Serini must be as committed as the rest of her party, if not more. She was the one who suggested that each of the remaining five members would guard one of the five Gates. It would only make sense to have invisible stealth masters overseeing the dungeons full of strong monsters. Especially since the dungeons are in plain sight and anyone who got around would be curious of the countless doors.

2) The two paladins were beaten by a combination of stealth and poison. Serini is a rogue. Do the math.

3) Halflings live longer than humans do and since Dorukan was alive about six months before The Order fought Xykon at Dorukan's Gate, Serini could be alive. Even if she isn't, her faction of Gate guardians can be alive. Personally, I'd wager a guess that she's alive and guarding her Gate because of story telling related reasons.

Now, why did they target the paladins and not Team Evil? The following is my speculation::
Since all Gate guardians had this device that told them which Gates were intact or broken, Serini would know that the Gates are falling rabidly and someone is obviously behind this.
She may or may not know what Team Evil is capable of but she might still wager that if someone could defeat all the other Gate guardians, she is outmatched. If something can defeat the Epic Level spell casters Dorukan and Lirian, Soon and his fortress city of paladins (Serini must have heard of Azure City) and outsmart Girard, what could she, a halfling Rogue, do about it?
The answer is: play time, collect information and find help. I guess Serini wants to interrogate the paladins, find out who they are working for and why and maybe ally with them if she likes what she hears. What triggered the capture of the paladins was the Vaarsuvius' Sending spell and the following conversation. Serini wants to know who will be coming in there in two days.


Of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this but at this point of time, Serini and/or Co. seems like the most probable option. My second guess is merely that it's someone who wants to evade the notice of both Team Evil and Serini and/or Co. This could be almost anyone, even a new character.

This is the best argument I've seen so far. The spoilered part (which, perhaps ironically given my last post in this thread, doesn't actually need to be in spoiler tags IMO) is the best argument I've heard for why the paladins are being captured alive. The method of capture does seem a little rough for her - since Serini wanted to be a paladin at one point, she's likely Good - but that can be explained by assuming that her orders were fairly general and her minions were relying on their own judgment. It's no worse than what the Chaotic Good Shojo did to the Order, after all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Could be the paladins are being removed now because Lien just confirmed the Order are on their way. Though why their arrival would equate to the end of existence is unclear. The Order has destroyed two gates already. :smallwink:
Dorukan's Gate. (Elan by being a nitwit).
Girard's Gate. (Roy acting to keep the gate out of Xykon's hands)

The case of Soon's gate: the Order were accessories to that, even though Miko landed the killing blow

From the point of view of the party removing Lien and O'Chul, it may be that the Order being near to the gate is too big of a risk, given the fate of three gates that the Order got close to previously.

[LuPuWei]

I'm gonna throw in:

1. Creatures related to the plot-threads (you know, which make up the Snarl, the World etc) somehow...

2. Remnant souls from one of the previous worlds

3. And... hmmm... how 'bout Nale and Thog on behalf of the IFCC?

[Aidan]

This is the best argument I've seen so far. The spoilered part (which, perhaps ironically given my last post in this thread, doesn't actually need to be in spoiler tags IMO) is the best argument I've heard for why the paladins are being captured alive. The method of capture does seem a little rough for her - since Serini wanted to be a paladin at one point, she's likely Good - but that can be explained by assuming that her orders were fairly general and her minions were relying on their own judgment. It's no worse than what the Chaotic Good Shojo did to the Order, after all.

Plus, as some have pointed out, we don't know whether the poison would have actually killed the paladins, given that after Lien goes down, the antidote is not mentioned, so my guess is that these creatures are likely employed by Serini and were ordered to subdue the paladins in a nonlethal manner for a chat, making the claim about the poison killing O-Chul a lie.

[rferries]

My theory:

They are two rebellious outsiders (one Lawful, one Chaotic).

1) Characters with coloured speech are generally outsiders, undead, or other supernatural creatures.

2) The voices don't seem to be "evil-coloured" enough to be fiends or undead (red & black or white & black), nor particularly "good-coloured". The slaad in 1147 also had a pale reddish bubble, though not quite the same.

3) In comic 1147 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html) it's noted that outsiders who learn that the world is being remade "go a bit nuts", and the voices seem to acknowledge their imminent destruction.

I think they represent yet another interested party in the Gate conflict. I don't think they're "nuts", they've just rebelled against their deities (and possibly even believe they're acting for the greater good of mortals).

[brian 333]

In 3x rules, attacking breaks Invisibility. Even Greater Invisibility is reduced in effect after an attack.

If Kermit and Scooter are using Invisibility they are augmenting it somehow.

The skill Hide doesn't have that limitation. The hider must succeed versus the spotter's Spot Check, of course.

Lots of classes and creatures have access to Hide Skill, and everything has cross-class access, so that's not necessarily a useful data point. But whatever they are using is not a simple potion or Level 2 spell.

[MossyMeow]

I would just like to point out that Rich Burlew has cited Babylon 5 as not only an inspiration, but also a guide, to how he plots OOTS, so comparisons aren’t too far-fetched. That being said, I’m not familiar with it. At all.

[skim172]

I would just like to point out that Rich Burlew has cited Babylon 5 as not only an inspiration, but also a guide, to how he plots OOTS, so comparisons aren’t too far-fetched. That being said, I’m not familiar with it. At all.

Well, Babylon was a notable city-state in Mesopotamia which rose to power in ancient times, and the time period after it was conquered by the Persian Empire in 6th Century BC could be considered the "fifth" Babylonian era (following the Old Babylon, Middle Babylon, Neo-Assyrian, and Neo-Babylonian periods) - or as many of its fans refer to it, "Babylon 5."

It's not as well-known or popular as some other empires of the genre, and unfortunately it was cancelled after only a couple centuries, by Alexander the Great - but it has since developed quite a cult following. Babylon 5 fan groups are all over the internet, celebrating the great achievements of Babylon as it became the new center of the Persian Empire, and bickering over plot details and minutiae from texts in Herodotus and the Cyrus Cylinder. You'll even see their fans cosplaying at conventions as their favorite Babylon 5 characters, like Cyrus the Great, Darius II, and Nebuchadnezzar IV.

Just don't confuse them with other, more popular ancient empires. Babylon 5 fans are very sensitive about being overshadowed by the more visible franchises of the genre. I mean, sure, "Egyptian 19th Dynasty" is the one that gets the mainstream attention, and the catchphrases, and the gaudy reboots featuring Chris Pine, but once you get past the pyramids and the mummies, it just lacks substance.

Babylon 5 had complexity.

[CriticalFailure]

pfft the new stuff is trash I prefer Sumer

[KorvinStarmast]

pfft the new stuff is trash I prefer Sumer And lo, as I raised my eyes up toward the top of the hill, I beheld an old, old, old school grognard. :smallbiggrin:

Gilgamesh: they don't make heroes like that anymore. :smallfrown:
When you get drunk with Gilgamesh, you don't just get high you get Uruk high.

(Uruk Hai pun attempt, sorry JRRT)

[Petrocorus]

The Babylon Project was our last best hope for puns.

It worked.

[skim172]

pfft the new stuff is trash I prefer Sumer

TOS (The Original Sumer) is very overrated. Oh gee, another flood myth - real original writing, guys.

TNA (The Neo-Assyria) was much better. Assur was the superior deity - intelligent, refined, cultured. Gilgamesh just went around having sex with scorpion women.

[grandpheonix]

How are we not calling green and orange Kermit and FOZZY is all I wanna know.

[Grey Watcher]

How are we not calling green and orange Kermit and FOZZY is all I wanna know.

Because Fozzie was always on more equal footing with Kermit. Scooter was, explicitly, the intern/assistant, so the more deferential attitude (eg "Boss") made more sense for Scooter.

Plus needs more cheesey jokes for Fozzie.

[Petrocorus]

Because Fozzie was always on more equal footing with Kermit. Scooter was, explicitly, the intern/assistant, so the more deferential attitude (eg "Boss") made more sense for Scooter.

Plus needs more cheesey jokes for Fozzie.

And here i am not knowing who all of those guys beside Kermit are.

[Grey Watcher]

When I was a teenager, I would have agreed with this. As an adult, I realize that not everybody who will enjoy a given story finds out about it (and has time to read/watch it) in a timely manner, and so putting expiration dates on spoilers is a bit arbitrary. The plot twists of a book published in 1975 aren't any less important than they would be if the book was published in 2015, and most people read and watch plenty of things that came out more than, say, five years ago.

Now, obviously, there's also a cost to spoilering things. In situations where it takes significant effort to do so, or to open the spoilers, maybe it's not worthwhile to do so. But it's extremely easy to do both on this forum, so I personally feel like it's a reasonable norm to uphold - with some exceptions, like references that are so ubiquitous that most people here are already familiar with them (LOTR, Star Wars, Harry Potter, etc.).

I guess the tricky part is figuring out which ones are so ubiquitous that you can safely avoid spoiler tags. For example, I would have assumed that, on a forum like this (population of people knowledgeable about sci-fi in a community built around the work of an author who specifically cites Babylon 5 as a major influence), Babylon 5 would be a reasonable "well-known enough to not bother with spoilers" material, while talking to my in-laws over Thanksgiving dinner, I respected the spoiler thing a lot more.

(Of course, I'm also enough of a curmudgeon that I kinda think the "no spoilers" thing is a bit overblown. Most things I've had "spoiled" for me haven't really spoiled it: yeah, a big twist had less impact than it might have, but a good story beat is still a good story beat. (And a bad one is still bad.))


And here i am not knowing who all of those guys beside Kermit are.

Fozzie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fozzie_Bear

Scooter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter_(Muppet)

If I had more time, I'd find some YouTube clips that I deemed emblematic of each character, but they're both from The Muppet Show. Kermit was the only character to routinely appear on both The Muppet Show and Sesame Street, explaining his better name recognition.

[Petrocorus]

Babylon 5 would be a reasonable "well-known enough to not bother with spoilers" material, while talking to my in-laws over Thanksgiving dinner, I respected the spoiler thing a lot more.

One of those days, i need to adapt the B5 plot to a totally non-scifi RPG, like Vampire or L5R, maybe D&D in a proper setting (Eberron?).


If I had more time, I'd find some YouTube clips that I deemed emblematic of each character, but they're both from The Muppet Show. Kermit was the only character to routinely appear on both The Muppet Show and Sesame Street, explaining his better name recognition.
Let's say the Muppet Show is really not that known here in France. I barely remember them from a Muppet Show cartoon of the 80s.


TOS (The Original Sumer) is very overrated. Oh gee, another flood myth - real original writing, guys.

TNA (The Neo-Assyria) was much better. Assur was the superior deity - intelligent, refined, cultured. Gilgamesh just went around having sex with scorpion women.

I much prefer the 9th generation of the Dynasty of the Seleucids.
The plot is more complex and rich, and the historical figures more interesting to me.
The war is also more action packed.

[Xyril]

The first line doesn't make a lot of sense if it's referring to their encounter with the paladins. That seems to have gone incredibly well, probably as well as it could. They captured both paladins, without alerting the bugbears or Xykon, and without any casualties on their side.


I agree that they get an A+ for results, but even assuming that their original goals were precisely what they accomplished, the way they got there was messy, risky, and probably took a bit longer than they hoped. They probably weren't hoping that O-Chul would take so long to feel the effects of the poison, or that both paladins would spend so much time in a defensive posture vocally (though quietly) challenging them. From the dialogue, we can infer that the unknown entities don't want Xykon to detect them or the paladins, and that they know that the paladins have the same concern. However, I don't think they wanted to have the protracted exchange that happened because introducing a new unknown changes things: Given an unexpected new threat, it's certainly plausible that Lien and O-Chul might decide that it was worth being a little less stealthy in order to avoid handicapping themselves as they searched for/fought off their new assailants. Or worse, they could decide that presented with two potentially unbeatable threats--and without the option of continuing to support the Order by staying alive and quietly providing recon--the paladins might decide that the best course of action is to pit Xykon against the unknown threat in hopes that one destroys the other, leaving only one weakened opponent when the Order arrives.

At least, that's just my opinion. In my experience at least, I've definitely commented on things going "poorly" because the plan fell apart and it was only through dumb luck that we achieved our goal.

It's also plausible that they had a more subtle goal than poisoning the paladins and bringing them back to base. The dialogue is slightly contradictory (first expressing uncertainty that the poison could even cut through O-Chul's "paladin mojo," but then expressing surprise that it took so long to do so), but it's possible that they were trying quietly incapacitate the paladins without revealing themselves. Maybe they were hoping that O-Chul would go down and Lien could also be darted in the time it took for him to say, "Hey, is this a dart?"--at which point they could quietly administer enough antidote to force a retreat. My best guess at this point that their top-level goal was to stop the paladins from starting their own search, or taking some other precipitous action now that backup has a definite ETA. Murdering the paladins clearly isn't an option, but revealing their (the invisible entities') existence or base of operations could in fact be the last resort because all attempts to be discrete have failed.



So, instead of talking about the paladin encounter, they must be talking about the whole situation surrounding the area, namely the fact that someone is sistematically looking for the Gate, with nefarious purposes in mind. The Gate defenses could defintiely have "gone better" than they did so far against Team Evil.


That's plausible, but I have my doubts. As far as we know, the Gate's defenses are working precisely as intended--stalling the hell out of invaders through sheer number of choices. Maybe they weren't expected Xykon to clear nearly a half dozen in a single day, or maybe they expected most threats would have died or given up by this point, but I doubt that someone associated with the Gate designers would be surprised that somebody would tackle the gate by slowly and systematically clearing out every dungeon. Also keep in mind, the voices are probably well aware that the MitD has been sabotaging the search--something that doesn't seem to be part of Serini's original plan. This means that the situation is even better than expected: Per Serini's plan, an invader would have to search up to X dungeons before finding the gate. Due to MitD's sabotage, there's a decent chance Xykon will think he's searched all the dungeons without success. At this point, he'll either think the gate was a trick, and either give up or try searching elsewhere, or he'll think that he was tricked or that his team made a mistake, and start search all X gates from scratch.

As others have said, this was designed to be a massive shell game. I just don't think that seeing someone continuing to play the shell game for so long would be enough to trigger the sort of surprise and dismay I read in the dialogue.




Yeah, I agree...asking for a 20-year-old show to be spoilered is taking things a bit far.

Even if it weren't that old, would any of the quoted text have warranted a spoiler warning? B5 had no source material, so the mere mention that a character named Lorien would be introduced later really convey a ton of implied information that you might if, for example, you told everyone that Werewolf by Night was coming to the MCU. Vorlons being beings in a suit, and not the suit itself, was a pretty early reveal, as was the fact that Shadows as a species existed. Maybe the association of "What do you want?" with the Shadows and their agents was revealed a little after Mr. Morden first started asking people the question, but IIRC it was pretty apparent that Morden was acting on behalf of some mysterious party right from the start.

[Roland Itiative]

That's plausible, but I have my doubts. As far as we know, the Gate's defenses are working precisely as intended--stalling the hell out of invaders through sheer number of choices. Maybe they weren't expected Xykon to clear nearly a half dozen in a single day, or maybe they expected most threats would have died or given up by this point, but I doubt that someone associated with the Gate designers would be surprised that somebody would tackle the gate by slowly and systematically clearing out every dungeon. Also keep in mind, the voices are probably well aware that the MitD has been sabotaging the search--something that doesn't seem to be part of Serini's original plan. This means that the situation is even better than expected: Per Serini's plan, an invader would have to search up to X dungeons before finding the gate. Due to MitD's sabotage, there's a decent chance Xykon will think he's searched all the dungeons without success. At this point, he'll either think the gate was a trick, and either give up or try searching elsewhere, or he'll think that he was tricked or that his team made a mistake, and start search all X gates from scratch.

As others have said, this was designed to be a massive shell game. I just don't think that seeing someone continuing to play the shell game for so long would be enough to trigger the sort of surprise and dismay I read in the dialogue.
I'm not sure about the Gate defenses working as intended. In an ideal situation, they're there to stop invaders, either by killing them in one of the dungeons, or encouraging them to give up by the unlikelihood of picking the right gate. The case of a group of invaders being able to actually breach all the dungeons successfully may have been taken into account (and that's probably why those new guys are there, if they're in fact Gate guardians), but it's more of a plan B than a plan A, if anything.

And I do think seeing someone successfully play the shell game for that long is a cause of surprise. We're talking about several epic level encounters here (Xykon mentioned getting XP for the first time in a long while), the shell game has a very high "price" for each round of play, that being the risk of successfully going through an epic level dungeon after another. As of right now, the doors are succeeding in stalling Team Evil, but they're also strengthening them for each day they succeed, both in levels and loot.

Furthermore, if the shell game is in fact just a ruse, and the real Gate lies elsewhere, then MitD's attempt at helping may actually cause the opposite effect, as Xykon himself may realise the whole set-up is misleading once they run out of doors, rather than realising MitD's scheme.

[Xyril]

Furthermore, if the shell game is in fact just a ruse, and the real Gate lies elsewhere, then MitD's attempt at helping may actually cause the opposite effect, as Xykon himself may realise the whole set-up is misleading once they run out of doors, rather than realising MitD's scheme.

That's an interesting point. I've been leaning towards MitD's well-intentioned plan backfiring, but I expected the more obvious mechanism everyone else had been suggesting (i.e., Redcloak doing the math and realizing that somebody was sabotaging them, not that everyone would wrongly believe they cleared everything and jump to the right conclusion based on the wrong premise.)

[CriticalFailure]

That's an interesting point. I've been leaning towards MitD's well-intentioned plan backfiring, but I expected the more obvious mechanism everyone else had been suggesting (i.e., Redcloak doing the math and realizing that somebody was sabotaging them, not that everyone would wrongly believe they cleared everything and jump to the right conclusion based on the wrong premise.)

I was thinking someone would realize that the math was off (probably Redcloak) but they would also discover that there was some trick to the gate or something afterwards, either intentionally or accidentally.

[Rotipher]

Don't fey also have colored speech bubbles? Because going purely by observed actions - Greater Invisibility, flight, use of sleep-inducing missiles that the paladins *assume* are darts because they're small - my guess is that "Boss" is a pixie.

[CriticalFailure]

Maybe remnants of defenders of the previous gates are trying to figure out what's going on.

[Emanick]

Don't fey also have colored speech bubbles? Because going purely by observed actions - Greater Invisibility, flight, use of sleep-inducing missiles that the paladins *assume* are darts because they're small - my guess is that "Boss" is a pixie.

Have we ever actually seen a fey speak in OOTS? The only times fey have ever appeared, IIRC, are (1) in a joke panel in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails about the 4e Feywild, and (2) in line for the women’s restroom way back in Book 1. In neither case did any speak. So maybe they have colored speech bubbles and maybe they don’t.

Personally, I don’t really think fey fit the setting of Kraagor’s Gate thematically - I don’t know, something just seems off about them being here. But I could be wrong.

[factotum]

Personally, I don’t really think fey fit the setting of Kraagor’s Gate thematically - I don’t know, something just seems off about them being here. But I could be wrong.

They could have travelled here from elsewhere--they don't have to be native to the area around the Gate.

[Emanick]

They could have travelled here from elsewhere--they don't have to be native to the area around the Gate.

I meant "thematically" in Doylist terms, not Watsonian (I'm not sure it's even possible to say that something is thematically appropriate in Watsonian terms). Fey are not the sort of creatures I can envision the series expanding to include at this stage. They don't really fit with any of the themes associated with the storyline or Kraagor's Gate - I can't quite articulate why, it just seems off to have them around.

In contrast, some magical constructs or Outsiders would fit quite well.

[drazen]

I'm skeptical the invisible newcomers are total bad guys. The idea of "Nice while it lasted... {this} existing {thing}" could imply they intend to let the Snarl wipe out everyone before the Godsmoot ends, so the gods cannot destroy the world and give Hel power. The "finally doing this" made it seem like Green Bubble thought this was an inevitable outcome.

I will point out how huge whatever picked up Lien, O-Chul, and their weapons must be given how spread out they are... and how MITD said his dad was huge and ate a ton. Daddy MITD speaking Common might explain why MITD can speak it... and it could be a "like father, like son" deal, where both of them are content to be underlings/followers ("What was, Boss?"). Plus book 7 will inevitably reveal what the MITD is, right? Nobody ever said he'd be the first of his kind to be seen, though. Xykon "knows what he is" so there's definitely more than one of his kind. EDIT: And that big ravine? Who's to say it wasn't stomped into existence by Daddy MITD, just like regular MITD stomped one in War & XP's.

MITD never said his dad died or anything. And the whole comic can't be nothing but terrible father figures: Eugene, Tarquin, Girard, the priest who exiled Durkon, Ian Starshine to a fair degree given Haley's mental hangups which she explicitly stated came from what he taught her, even Lord Shojo to some extent, Vaarsuvius isn't technically male but was effectively an absentee parent. The one "good" father figure we see, Julio, is CN by word of author, and was not inspired by Elan's Sending asking for mere heroism for its own sake, so he's not quite the Good father figure Elan imagines. He's on vacation and letting someone else do the world-at-stake level adventuring... Julio was a "dashing swordsman" who i speculate fought for lower stakes most of his life.

Serini could have picked up some Ranger levels (note Girard's comment in the illusion about delegating mapmaking duties to the ranger) and thus tamed Invisible Daddy MITD. That would not explain having a green speech bubble, though, unless Serini has gone through some major changes.

[hroþila]

I'm skeptical the invisible newcomers are total bad guys. The idea of "Nice while it lasted... {this} existing {thing}" could imply they intend to let the Snarl wipe out everyone before the Godsmoot ends, so the gods cannot destroy the world and give Hel power. The "finally doing this" made it seem like Green Bubble thought this was an inevitable outcome.
Your mileage may vary, but I'd consider that a strongly Evil action.

[drazen]

Your mileage may vary, but I'd consider that a strongly Evil action.

MMDV, I'm seeing it as more of a "greater good" thing. Either sacrifice this world, or condemn every future soul.

It could also be that the boss creature has a plan that simply means THEY would not exist but they will somehow save everyone.

[Petrocorus]

I will point out how huge whatever picked up Lien, O-Chul, and their weapons must be given how spread out they are... and how MITD said his dad was huge and ate a ton. Daddy MITD speaking Common might explain why MITD can speak it... and it could be a "like father, like son" deal, where both of them are content to be underlings/followers ("What was, Boss?").

In the case of MitD, i always seen this as an effect of his childdishness. Or immaturity in proper english.



Plus book 7 will inevitably reveal what the MITD is, right? Nobody ever said he'd be the first of his kind to be seen, though. Xykon "knows what he is" so there's definitely more than one of his kind. EDIT: And that big ravine?

The Giant has stated that the MitD will eventually be revealed and that we would recognize it once we'll see it.



MITD never said his dad died or anything. And the whole comic can't be nothing but terrible father figures: Eugene, Tarquin, Girard, the priest who exiled Durkon, Ian Starshine to a fair degree given Haley's mental hangups which she explicitly stated came from what he taught her, even Lord Shojo to some extent,

Oh my... I never noticed that trend. Quite astonishing.


Vaarsuvius isn't technically male but was effectively an absentee parent.

He may be. Us not knowing if he's male and him not being male are two different things.

[drazen]

In the case of MitD, i always seen this as an effect of his childdishness. Or immaturity in proper english.

Which he would have learned from his father - whose grasp of Common might not have been that great to begin with.


The Giant has stated that the MitD will eventually be revealed and that we would recognize it once we'll see it.

Doesn't mean another one won't be revealed first, or simultaneously.


He may be. Us not knowing if he's male and him not being male are two different things.

I thought the author has stated that V originally had an intended gender, and it was just a running joke at first, but then decided to write them as not being one of the MF binary genders / fluid / something else. The character V has explicitly stated they do not really notice a lot of gender details / pronouns and V's and Inky's kids address them as "Parent."

[Petrocorus]

Which he would have learned from his father - whose grasp of Common might not have been that great to begin with.

I meant about MitD being subservient to Xykon and RC.



Doesn't mean another one won't be revealed first, or simultaneously.

True.



I thought the author has stated that V originally had an intended gender, and it was just a running joke at first, but then decided to write them as not being one of the MF binary genders / fluid / something else. The character V has explicitly stated they do not really notice a lot of gender details / pronouns and V's and Inky's kids address them as "Parent."
MF?

I may have missed thing or comments. But i'm still under the impression that V has a gender but just and ambiguous one due to androgynous appearance, and not caring himself about this.

The whole race of elves being gender-fuild would be weird. Not only it would be a big difference with canon D&D, but half-elves are known to exist in Ootsverse, so we know elves are still sexually and genetically compatible with humans.

[Spatial]

These two hidden figures, which I support calling Kermit and Scooter, have unique speech bubbles. Unique speech bubbles have historically been used for 4 main things, outsiders (IFCC, Celia, Devas, Archons, etc.), Gods (specifically the color matching their quiddity), undead (Xykon, Wights, ghosts), and while under some magical influence or power (Darth V, Oracle, Shojos illusionary head).

Another use of the unique speech bubbles was Crystal in sentient golem form. This would also put the comment 'existing ... fun while it lasted' into context. Grubwiggler was still alive at the end of 980. Beyond that I can't see who the characters could be or how Grubwiggler would be connected so probably a dead end. Any thoughts?

[Ornithologist]

I can only seem to come up with characters who they are absolutely not going to be. At least they all fit both the color pattern and the personalities of the colors. And they make me giggle, so there's that:

Bert and Ernie
Squidward and Spongebob
Major Monogram and Carl

I'll see my self out.

[Theshipening]

The one "good" father figure we see, Julio

Are we forgetting Durkon’s uncles ? I’d argue they largely qualify as father figures.

[pi4t]

Clearly, there's only one pair of characters these voices can belong to: the Flumphs!

[drazen]

I meant about MitD being subservient to Xykon and RC.


True.


MF?
.

Male / Female.

I am just going off some author comments I vaguely remember. I am sure not all elves are ambiguously gendered (the ones on Team Perigrene infiltration team seemed to have a couple "obvious" genders on them), but V could be. It hasn't been explicitly addressed in comic and probably never will be. I think it's set up so you can read V however you want to.

[Fish]

The parade of absent or inadequate father figures is probably just the result of the Giant’s deciding a lot of story points early on, then being committed to those choices even after he became aware of the gender imbalance in the story. We learned very early that Elan’s father was an evil conqueror, Haley’s was a first-edition thief who had been captured; Roy’s was a cantankerous ghost; and most of the Scribblers were men.

[Sir_Norbert]

Not just "probably". We have a comment to this effect in the Index. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222955-Disappointing-Fathers-and-Saintly-Mothers-in-OOTS/page2&p=12240501#post12240501)

[NobleCuriosity]

This "Redcloak's niece" rubbish is not funny, witty or clever. I've never been a regular here so I don't know what incident or series of incidents started it, but it's as of now all over the board and is hackneyed, overplayed and idiotic.

Amen.

All this meme does is clutter the board with low effort highly repetitive material and, ultimately, steer the conversation on any ultimate appearance she may make—likely a dramatic situation—into an inane meme fest.

At least That Guy with a Halberd doesn’t do the latter, even if I also find that one ridiculous.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, Babylon was a notable city-state in Mesopotamia which rose to power in ancient times, and the time period after it was conquered by the Persian Empire in 6th Century BC could be considered the "fifth" Babylonian era (following the Old Babylon, Middle Babylon, Neo-Assyrian, and Neo-Babylonian periods) - or as many of its fans refer to it, "Babylon 5."

It's not as well-known or popular as some other empires of the genre, and unfortunately it was cancelled after only a couple centuries, by Alexander the Great - but it has since developed quite a cult following. Babylon 5 fan groups are all over the internet, celebrating the great achievements of Babylon as it became the new center of the Persian Empire, and bickering over plot details and minutiae from texts in Herodotus and the Cyrus Cylinder. You'll even see their fans cosplaying at conventions as their favorite Babylon 5 characters, like Cyrus the Great, Darius II, and Nebuchadnezzar IV.

Just don't confuse them with other, more popular ancient empires. Babylon 5 fans are very sensitive about being overshadowed by the more visible franchises of the genre. I mean, sure, "Egyptian 19th Dynasty" is the one that gets the mainstream attention, and the catchphrases, and the gaudy reboots featuring Chris Pine, but once you get past the pyramids and the mummies, it just lacks substance.

Babylon 5 had complexity.

Our Horoscope, after all, comes from them.

[Riftwolf]

One thought that occurs: whatever Kermit and Scooter(s) are up to, they're more concerned with what the paladins have done than what team evil are doing. Either they can't stop team evil (possible), what team evils doing won't work (less likely) or the Orders arrival complicates things to the point that Kermits willing to undo creation as the alternative. I'm guessing the answer, as always with Richs writing, will be 'it's not that simple', but we've got six weeks of idle speculation to get through, might as well get our eye in now.

[brian 333]

the Orders arrival complicates things to the point that Kermits willing to undo creation as the alternative.

I seem to have missed the part where Kermit implies he has any intent or even ability to undo creation.

What I read was that Kermit's personal existence is coming to an end, regardless of the outcome for the rest of the world.

Some points to consider:

If Kermit wants the world to end he only has to wait and do nothing. Therefore capturing the paladins implies that is not his goal.

If Kermit wanted the paladins dead...
Well, why do anything with them? A convient falling rock could have attracted Xykon's attention to them long ago.

If Kermit wanted Xykon to stop looking for the gate he might have tried exactly what he suggested to Lien.

It appears to me that the trigger for Kermit was O'Chull's question about how they could find the gate, and I think Kermit is about to give them the answer, knowing the gate's destruction will result in his personal existence coming to an end, even though it might save the world.

[Verappo]

I am thinking the voices might be followers of Tiamat, if only because of the chromatic speech bubbles. The green one seems to know their poisons, much like a green dragon would.

Also we haven't seen the Oracle in a while, and it makes sense that he and/or his faction would become relevant as issues between gods arise. The western god voted for the destruction of the world after all, maybe they want to make sure it sticks.

I'm thinking slim, cunning green dragonborn and Enor-sized, red dragonborn

[CriticalFailure]

A Tiamat and/or dragon and/or kobold faction would be interesting thought at this point the theory seems a little out of left field. Though I also thought of dragons when I saw the speech bubble color.

[Roland Itiative]

If Kermit wants the world to end he only has to wait and do nothing. Therefore capturing the paladins implies that is not his goal.
That's not something that most people would know. It's unlikely that the gods are any more forthcoming with this info now than they were before, and highly probable that they would do anything to keep this info from becoming widespread, so all the high priestes and other bodyguards are likely to be in deep trouble if they share anything with anyone not already in the know.

Our mysterious intruders may have absolutely no clue about the Godsmoot, or what the gods plan to do.

They may, however, think that breaking all five Gates will free the Snarl and "end their existence", and be willing to risk that possibility over someone else taking control of the Gate with nefarious ends in mind. They may also know that the other four Gates are already gone, and perhaps even assume that the other guardians were faced with the same "lose the Gate to the lich or destroy it" choice, and chose the latter.

I think assuming that the invisible voices are somehow creatures whose life are directly attached to the Gate is too much of a stretch, when there's the way easier assumption that they may be contemplating destroying it, and know of the (presumed) consequences of doing so being total annihilation.

[137beth]

I am aware of the existence of RN in SoD and can extrapolate that at one time some person(s) made some threads that suggested RN would have an important role coming up, which then got mocked, copied and turned into a meme. Fair enough, but now it's all over the place, been going on far too long, and everybody who brings up "Redcloaks Niece" still thinks they're being clever when they're actually being repetitively eye-rollingly annoying.

But Redcloak's Niece invented (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?309148-680-quot-But-it-might-be-worth-asking-around-in-this-new-place-that-s-quot&p=16259312#post16259312) the spell "Halflings Don't Have to Breathe."


Yeah we need to go back to That Guy With A Halberd, the original forum meme.


Clearly That Guy With A Halberd is Redcloak's niece.

Now you two are just being silly. That Guy With A Halberd is quite clearly Trigak in disguise. Also, everyone has been trapped in an illusion since strip 1.

[Quebbster]

Male / Female.

I am just going off some author comments I vaguely remember. I am sure not all elves are ambiguously gendered (the ones on Team Perigrene infiltration team seemed to have a couple "obvious" genders on them), but V could be. It hasn't been explicitly addressed in comic and probably never will be. I think it's set up so you can read V however you want to.

Lirian had a clear female identity too.

[Schroeswald]

Now you two are just being silly. That Guy With A Halberd is quite clearly Trigak in disguise. Also, everyone has been trapped in an illusion since strip 1.
And Roy is actually Fyron’s son.

[CriticalFailure]

I get the impression that elves were decided to all be androgynous somewhere between SOD and V’s family’s appearance/team peregrine’s introduction.

[Riftwolf]

Also possible is that there's elves of all gender identities and the viewing sample isn't large enough to extrapolate for the entire species.

[137beth]

Well, Babylon was a notable city-state in Mesopotamia which rose to power in ancient times, and the time period after it was conquered by the Persian Empire in 6th Century BC could be considered the "fifth" Babylonian era (following the Old Babylon, Middle Babylon, Neo-Assyrian, and Neo-Babylonian periods) - or as many of its fans refer to it, "Babylon 5."

It's not as well-known or popular as some other empires of the genre, and unfortunately it was cancelled after only a couple centuries, by Alexander the Great - but it has since developed quite a cult following. Babylon 5 fan groups are all over the internet, celebrating the great achievements of Babylon as it became the new center of the Persian Empire, and bickering over plot details and minutiae from texts in Herodotus and the Cyrus Cylinder. You'll even see their fans cosplaying at conventions as their favorite Babylon 5 characters, like Cyrus the Great, Darius II, and Nebuchadnezzar IV.

Just don't confuse them with other, more popular ancient empires. Babylon 5 fans are very sensitive about being overshadowed by the more visible franchises of the genre. I mean, sure, "Egyptian 19th Dynasty" is the one that gets the mainstream attention, and the catchphrases, and the gaudy reboots featuring Chris Pine, but once you get past the pyramids and the mummies, it just lacks substance.

Babylon 5 had complexity.
May I put this quote in my extended signature?

[Squire Doodad]

The Mysterious Voices (which I love that they're being called various muppet names XD) are most likely either from Serini's gate itself (the oathspirit thing), IFFC's begrudging workers, or a mysterious third party.

One thing I'd like to add: look at SRD, the poison that stands out is Drow Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison). Drow Poison is an injury poison, and inflicts unconsciousness on both primary and secondary damage. I can't explain why they'd have Drow poison (they might just be high level enough that they can find some easy), but it suggests that the poison may have been meant to knock the Paladins out instead of killing them outright. They may well be against the party, but they aren't necessarily going to kill them outright.

[SlashDash]

I can't explain why they'd have Drow poison

Why would that need explanation? Did we need an explanation on why did Tarquin know Drow hand gestures? Assuming that's the given poison, it's enough to know they have it.



it suggests that the poison may have been meant to knock the Paladins out instead of killing them outright. They may well be against the party, but they aren't necessarily going to kill them outright.
If they wanted to kill them, they'd chop their heads off instead of dragging their unconscious bodies.

They wanted them alive regardless of the poison used.

[factotum]

They wanted them alive regardless of the poison used.

We only have the word of one of the voices that the poison they hit O-Chul with would kill him. It's entirely probable that was a lie meant to force Lien into surrendering without a fight.

[Themrys]

We only have the word of one of the voices that the poison they hit O-Chul with would kill him. It's entirely probable that was a lie meant to force Lien into surrendering without a fight.

They also didn't give O-Chul or Lien an antidote, even though they clearly want to take them alive and talked about it taking two minutes for the poison to kill.

Probably a bluff.

Though that would speak against them being Fair Folk who are bound to be true to their word, as "keep the toxins from burning through his veins" is ... well, debatable. Can you keep something from doing something it would not have done in the first place?

[Riftwolf]

They also didn't give O-Chul or Lien an antidote, even though they clearly want to take them alive and talked about it taking two minutes for the poison to kill.

Probably a bluff.

Though that would speak against them being Fair Folk who are bound to be true to their word, as "keep the toxins from burning through his veins" is ... well, debatable. Can you keep something from doing something it would not have done in the first place?

I doubt it's fey/fae/fair folk/fum; it feels like an unnecessary complication when exactly the same role could be played by chaotic outsiders, humanoids, oathspirits or Muppets.

A thought that cropped up was possibly Manticores. They're intelligent, can fly, attack with poison darts, and it'd make some sense for them to be left in charge of a dungeon of super-monsters.

[Grey Watcher]

They also didn't give O-Chul or Lien an antidote, even though they clearly want to take them alive and talked about it taking two minutes for the poison to kill.

Probably a bluff.

Though that would speak against them being Fair Folk who are bound to be true to their word, as "keep the toxins from burning through his veins" is ... well, debatable. Can you keep something from doing something it would not have done in the first place?

The antidote might have been administered off-panel. In the second to last panel the bubbles are gone, but that might just be an artifact of having zoomed out. So I'm going to call the status of the antidote "unclear".

It's possible that neither attacker has the antidote on their person, but that they can get to wherever it's being kept in under two minutes. Until we get more information, it's impossible to say, really.

[Fish]

I can’t imagine it matters what poison it was. Either Kermit was lying about an antidote because the poison would not kill O-Chul, or Kermit came prepared with the antidote and was lying about any intention of withholding it. Both methods strike me as very Neutral (or at least neither Good nor Evil).

The only remaining alternative — that Kermit truly would have let O-Chul die — doesn’t indicate much. As stated in the comic, Kermit’s move was to leverage the antidote to secure cooperation.

[Dion]

Can we all stay focused and agree on the obvious?

This is clearly Popcorn and Laser Snail.

Edit: on a far more serious note, my guess is that these are gate guardians.

They know the battle over the final gate will occur soon, and with it they will be released from whatever magic binds them to existence.

And, my guess is that they have decided to take Lien and O’Chul to the gate.

[KorvinStarmast]

neither of them can be RC's neice; she is female, and a cleric but we from years past (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16270309&postcount=32)

And of course all female clerics are Hilya in disquise and carrying Durkon's baby. It all fits now.
Except Minrah, of course, who started out as a Fighter.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

I would agree that they're dragons, mainly based on the color scheme on their speech bubbles. However, I can't find any contradictions to it, either:

1. The devil-like attitude of the green voice in its "Sorry, the contract didn't include..." style is indicative of the Lawful Evil of the green dragon;
2. Dragons can fly, which explains that;
3. Green dragons have Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently as skills, all of which would be pretty helpful in the scenario this monster is in (note that you don't see an invisible outline; possibly explained by obscenely high Hide scores? Also, epic usages of Hide can hide another as well...);
4. Dragons often know lots of languages, so it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to be speaking Common;
5. Given the Order of the Scribble's many adventures, and given Serini's searches far and wide for an incredible number of monsters, it wouldn't be to hard for her to somehow bind the two to the protection of the gate.

Any objections to this idea?

[WolvesbaneIII]

I would agree that they're dragons, mainly based on the color scheme on their speech bubbles. However, I can't find any contradictions to it, either:

1. The devil-like attitude of the green voice in its "Sorry, the contract didn't include..." style is indicative of the Lawful Evil of the green dragon;
2. Dragons can fly, which explains that;
3. Green dragons have Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently as skills, all of which would be pretty helpful in the scenario this monster is in (note that you don't see an invisible outline; possibly explained by obscenely high Hide scores? Also, epic usages of Hide can hide another as well...);
4. Dragons often know lots of languages, so it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to be speaking Common;
5. Given the Order of the Scribble's many adventures, and given Serini's searches far and wide for an incredible number of monsters, it wouldn't be to hard for her to somehow bind the two to the protection of the gate.

Any objections to this idea?

Dragons were shown to have magical abilities, such as mama black dragon, so another dragon having magical proficiency isn't impossible. It could serve as an interesting call back.

I saw in an episode of dragon ball super where a tiny bug knocked people off the tournament grounds to devastating effect. He succeeded due to his small stature. Could a similar thing be in effect?

The bug was even assumed to be invisible, but he was just small, which is how he avoided detection.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

I saw in an episode of dragon ball super where a tiny bug knocked people off the tournament grounds to devastating effect. He succeeded due to his small stature. Could a similar thing be in effect?

The bug was even assumed to be invisible, but he was just small, which is how he avoided detection.

I highly doubt it; considering the large size that Orange Guy has to be in order to "grab them," it's unlikely that that sort of invisibility is possible.

Besides, Lien and O-Chul are capable of seeing an imp, and it's unlikely that there's anything smaller than an imp which is capable of holding a dart-shooter.

[brian 333]

Has anyone considered that Scooter, (aka Orange Guy,) might be multiple creatures?

Let's assume a rogue group of goblinoid, um... rogues... which live among the bugbears and which actually work for Serinni or her appointed gate guardian, (Boss.)

Halfling Rangers who are disguised as goblins would also fill the bill. In this case, Serinni may have recruited a corps of rangers to supervise the gate's defense. This would allow them to move around unseen and leave no tracks, even in snow.

So. I propose Serinni has left an arctic druid and a cadre of rangers as the gate's ulthmate guardians, and may in fact be Kermit.

The green speech bubble may be explained by the possibility that she is shape changed or otherwise magically altered either as a disguise or to extend her lifespan.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I highly doubt it; considering the large size that Orange Guy has to be in order to "grab them," it's unlikely that that sort of invisibility is possible.

Besides, Lien and O-Chul are capable of seeing an imp, and it's unlikely that there's anything smaller than an imp which is capable of holding a dart-shooter.

you mean the bug idea? what if one of them is a bug, the other is a large beast, subservient to the smaller one, ala vegeta and nappa?

I'm guessing psychic power is out of the question either, as an aura effect would probably show up around them. Unless the one lifting them is the little psion who could.

[Riftwolf]

Has anyone considered that Scooter, (aka Orange Guy,) might be multiple creatures?

From the angles of the paladins and their weapons being carried away, I make it three humanoids. Of course it could be a Ravid or Behir.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Hmmm... A blue dragon thing and a red dragon thing... It must be Tiamat!

[Petrocorus]

Hmmm... A blue dragon thing and a red dragon thing... It must be Tiamat!

You're blueing this, but this is a hypothesis i and several others actually made seriously.
Not Tiamat herself of course, but someone working for her.

[Benoojian]

The Snarl and his captured thrall...Kraagor

[WolvesbaneIII]

I read that a one off character from the comic will be returning to play an integral role in the 1st half of the next book.

Maybe the green or red voiced character is that person?

So, are we ruling out gods, demi gods and other such deities?

Was surtur in any more than 1?

[Jay R]

And, my guess is that they have decided to take Lien and O’Chul to the gate.

I agree with one aspect of your theory.

The gate is not behind any of the doors. It's somewhere else -- possibly under Kraagor's statue.

[Synesthesy]

I agree with one aspect of your theory.

The gate is not behind any of the doors. It's somewhere else -- possibly under Kraagor's statue.

Why build an incredibly complex dungeon based on multiple doors, if the enemy can find the treasure just stepping onto the wrong statue?

Hailey explained that in the last gate.

However, back on the voices topic, I still think that they are monsters tied with the last gate, and that they are a green (boss) and a red slaad. I know that slaadi seem to be too chaotic for doing this, but I decided not to care about logic. I just like it that way, because a Slaad has been foreshadowed before and because I think that MitD is a black slaad.

I'm counting the day we need to wait until the comic is done. I can't believe how much time has passed since Durkula's death. I love this comic.

[Dion]

I agree with one aspect of your theory.

The gate is not behind any of the doors. It's somewhere else -- possibly under Kraagor's statue.

I’m not even sure if I agree with my theory.

The question in my mind is: Do you need to defeat a bunch of epic level monsters to get to the final gate?

In one way, that seems incredibly unlikely. Kraagor was an epic level barbarian. He may possibly have been the best in the history of the world at slicing through epic level monsters in hand-to-hand combat. He probably had a bag of holding overflowing with necklaces made from epic level monster teeth.

Why would Sereni guard Kraagor’s gate with defenses Kraagor could have easily defeated?

Maybe because Kraagor would have enjoyed defeating them. Maybe Sereni hoped Kraagor himself was going to walk out of that gate and defeat them.

I don’t know.

[tomandtish]

Considering that we've seen Girard Draketooth's very dead skeleton, it's safe to assume he's not one of the two voices. Also the voice doesn't really fit the way he's spoken in flashbacks. Nale has the same issue. Super dead, and the dialogue doesn't really fit his character.

I heard Serini-as-oathspirit floated as an option, which is possible I suppose. Honestly, my money is on 'new characters' until proven otherwise.


Yeah, I wasn't being entirely serious about it being jirard. Though if he were alive, putting a fake corpse or skeleton in a tomb wouldn't be unreasonable. Faking ones death and masquerading around as a non legendary spell caster wouldn't be impossible.

The only point "in favor of" (but not really) of it being a fake skeleton is the strip here.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html

Red cloak admits he didn't go out of his way to get 3 skeletons that looksed like xykon, and that the 3 pendants were just so he could tell them apart. Now imagine girard had a similar idea, at least before he died, and he died else where. So even if it isn't his skeleton, he could easily have kicked the bucket in a less than ideal place.

So while it looks like I'm disagreeing with you, I'm actually not...

Late to this particular part of the party, but even if it was a fake skeleton, we have plenty of evidence that Girard would not have survived the Familicide cast by Darth V. So even if he faked his death to his family, he's almost certainly toast now.

[Sir_Norbert]

In one way, that seems incredibly unlikely. Kraagor was an epic level barbarian. He may possibly have been the best in the history of the world at slicing through epic level monsters in hand-to-hand combat. He probably had a bag of holding overflowing with necklaces made from epic level monster teeth.

Why would Sereni guard Kraagor’s gate with defenses Kraagor could have easily defeated?

Why would whether Kraagor could defeat them have anything to do with it? The point of the defences was to stop anyone else from getting to the gate too easily.

[factotum]

Why would whether Kraagor could defeat them have anything to do with it? The point of the defences was to stop anyone else from getting to the gate too easily.

Plus, we have no idea how powerful Kraagor was or how well he would do against Serini's monsters. All we can say for sure is that a party consisting of a high epic level lich sorcerer, a cleric of at least 17th level, and whatever Oona and the MitD are come out of those dungeons looking pretty beat up. (See strip #1040). Seems unlikely that a single barbarian would be able to handily defeat those critters if a high-powered party like that has trouble.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Late to this particular part of the party, but even if it was a fake skeleton, we have plenty of evidence that Girard would not have survived the Familicide cast by Darth V. So even if he faked his death to his family, he's almost certainly toast now.

Well, I think that much was obvious yes, unless his illusion magic was so epic it tricked another epic level spell, which is highly doubtful.

Though, that epic wizard who transported vast armies was able to wiggle through xykons epic cloister spell, made up by another epic wizard, but that's beside the point.

I really don't think girard survived familicide.

Question on familicide, does it skip a generation if the guy it targets next is dead, or does it go to the next available target?

Suppose girard was dead (which he is) and it targets him, but he's already dead, does the spell fizzle out, or does it go to the next guy? Unless this is a plot point, or plot hole, I'm assuming it just targets the next in line even if the father is already dead.

Hmm. looks like I answered my question already.

[brian 333]

Here is an analogy for how Familicide works:

Think of a family tree. When cast the spell goes from the branch, (the target,) down the trunk to every root, (ancestor,) and up the trunk again out to every twig, (descendant of the roots,) without any other consideration.

Now those family members who are not direct ancestors or descendants, (grandfather's uncle, aunt's husband, etcetera,) may have children or ancestors who do not share blood with the target. They are on separate family trees. It is these who may be spared if the link to the target tree passes through a dead person. Even if their tree is affected, the spell will stop at the first dead person and not progress further in that direction on that branch of that tree.

Thus, if blood relative Aunt Ivy is dead but her children are alive, the children die, along with their children. The father(s) of her living children die also, and the spell continues down the father(s) family tree(s) in all directions until they end at dead guys. If Aunt Ivy had no living children, then Uncle Green and his family is safe. (This is how Tarquin survived even though his wife did not. Had Penelope been pregnant at the time, Tarquin would have died too, along with Elan, Nale, and their mother.)

[Petrocorus]

Suppose girard was dead (which he is) and it targets him, but he's already dead, does the spell fizzle out, or does it go to the next guy? Unless this is a plot point, or plot hole, I'm assuming it just targets the next in line even if the father is already dead.

Hmm. looks like I answered my question already.
As did what the OotS found in the pyramid.
Girard was buried by his family years before they got zapped by the familicide

[WolvesbaneIII]

As did what the OotS found in the pyramid.
Girard was buried by his family years before they got zapped by the familicide

Is assumed to be girards, but I'd also a fool to suggest it wasn't at this point. The only point in favor of it not being girards, is that all skeletons look alike, to the point even redcloak had to put colored medallions on his xykon triplets to tell them apart.

Or rather, not a point to it, but that its a neutral point. Its likely girards and he's dead, because it serves no discernable plot relevance.

I suppose due to the ambiguity of skeletal remains, the giant could pull a trick and say "aha! it wasn't girards skeleton after all! all skeletons look the same anyway so haha!" but then he could also just put in comic that they're all still in the pyramid spacing out, even after telling everyone they weren't, and that his prior message was the ultimate illusion cast by girard himself, fooling even rich himself.

So, lets just play it safe (and not dumb) and say its girards skeleton, because it'd be too dumb to be anything else.

[factotum]

(This is how Tarquin survived even though his wife did not. Had Penelope been pregnant at the time, Tarquin would have died too, along with Elan, Nale, and their mother.)

I'm not sure I agree with that. When V was describing how Familicide works to Bloodwing, he specifically said, "I am the one who slew Tarquin's wife! And had she borne him a child, I would have slain it as well!". No mention of Tarquin himself or Elan dying in that situation. I think you're forgetting that Penelope herself was killed in the second part of the spell (because she shared blood with her missing child, who was the one who shared the dragon's blood), and that part is not recursive, so it wouldn't then go and kill anyone who shared blood with Penelope.

[RatElemental]

I'm going with agents of Serini using potions of invisibility and pass without trace. Possibly a half green-dragon and a half-gold dragon, or one of the more intelligent creatures form monster hollow.

[Lexible]

I get the impression that elves were decided to all be androgynous somewhere between SOD and V’s family’s appearance/team peregrine’s introduction.

Nope: If you recall, part of the reason Z'zitdri was an evil opposite of V was clearly defined & unambiguous gender role.

[CriticalFailure]

Which happened prior to both those things.

[Grey Watcher]

Nope: If you recall, part of the reason Z'zitdri was an evil opposite of V was clearly defined & unambiguous gender role.

I thought that was Pompey's shtick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html)?

[The Pilgrim]

Looks like this thread failed his saving throw against Familicide.

[SlashDash]

I thought that was Pompey's shtick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html)?

Correct. Z'zitdri's schtick was that they barely say anything while while V never shuts up.

[Lord Raziere]

my assumption was that the two voices were just a goblin and hobgoblin that is apart of the bugbear town, and that they're referring to Xykon or Redcloak potentially coming back to kill them for harboring paladins in their attempt to protect the paladins from them, but I might be wrong? because green could be a goblin voice and the orange a hobgoblin voice and its just an artistic way of showing it.

but yeah I could see how they could be outsiders or Serini's whatever trying to guard the gate.

[Peelee]

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Im absolutely sure I don't agree with that. The Giant write out exactly how famulicide works. It's curated by Jasdoif. Tarkie could have had any number of children with Penelope and he would not have died, nor Elan, nor Elan's mother, and so on and so on.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Im absolutely sure I don't agree with that. The Giant write out exactly how famulicide works. It's curated by Jasdoif. Tarkie could have had any number of children with Penelope and he would not have died, nor Elan, nor Elan's mother, and so on and so on.

Where is this quote so I can read it in its original context? Is there a collection of these quotes we can see on other things, such as like the complete collection of vampire mechanics? I'd love to see his opinion on vampire spirit durkon and the negative energy "squirming" within him.

It's off topic, but I'm wondering if there is an answer as to what happens long term in that situation.

Back on topic, maybe the main character in the next book will be the king of nowhere, somewhere or whatever that joke was.

Where are these dungeons xykon is clearing out, the middle of nowhere? or is it somewhere? I'd like to think it's elsewhere, or if its in a different game and setting like elsweyr.

[factotum]

Where is this quote so I can read it in its original context? Is there a collection of these quotes we can see on other things, such as like the complete collection of vampire mechanics?

It's the thread of the Giant's quotes, curated by Jasdoif as Peelee said:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?601004-The-Index-of-the-Giant-s-Comments-VIMaking-Dogma-from-Zapped-Bananas

[Peelee]

It's the thread of the Giant's quotes, curated by Jasdoif as Peelee said:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?601004-The-Index-of-the-Giant-s-Comments-VIMaking-Dogma-from-Zapped-Bananas

Aye. The tl;dr version is "Penelope was killed in step 2, not step 1. Penny and Tarkie's hypothetical offspring would thus be killed, but would not branch out to Tarquin himself or anyone in his line, because he only has shared blood with a step 2 death, and having shared blood with a step 1 death is the death sentence."

[WolvesbaneIII]

Aye. The tl;dr version is "Penelope was killed in step 2, not step 1. Penny and Tarkie's hypothetical offspring would thus be killed, but would not branch out to Tarquin himself or anyone in his line, because he only has shared blood with a step 2 death, and having shared blood with a step 1 death is the death sentence."

This is good stuff. thanks.

Alas, my initial question was not answered, but the rest was really good and I enjoyed my time with other such intrigues.

My thanks for this exquisite morsel of information none the less.