Do magic items need more magic?

[Lupine]

So, in discussing spell versitlity, I came across this quote:

I prefer the latter, but scrolls are way, way too expensive in 5e for that to be practical.

And it really got me thinking. Why is the magic item system bad in 5e? (Just a note, I'm 5e born and raised)

A side note to that, how would you fix it, if it needs fixing?

I know that I've been caught off guard by the categorization of certain items (such as potions and scrolls), because they just don't seem like they should be that rare (At least, for certain spells. Combat spells I have an easy time getting around their rarity, but a scroll of cure wounds, or lesser restoration seems like it should be a household thing, like band-aids.). That said, I have no idea how to fix that.

[KorvinStarmast]

And it really got me thinking. Why is the magic item system bad in 5e? It isn't. The magic item system is a supplement to the game. The PC's are the focus, not the items. (This isn't Diablo III).

There have been a variety of points made for this edition that one can play it from level 1-20 with no magic items, though that will make some battles a real PITA for martial characters as we go up in levels and the bags of HP / Monsters are immune and resistant to non magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing attacks.

Magic items are neat. They are part of the fun.
(Immovable Rod cheese, front and center!)
But they don't need fixing.

[Zhorn]

I've done minor tweakings to the crafting times and costs to suit what I wanted in my games
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579877-Adjusted-Crafting-Rules
Still takes a bit of downtime, but in more manageable bits. Party plans on being in town for a few days? The wizard can scribe out a few simple scrolls, and the fighter (with blacksmithing proficiency) gets to smelt that fancy rock they found and forge a magic sword.

If it takes a character a few hundred days to make something... maybe they are just bad at making things?

[Spore]

5e has a focus on "low magic" itemization which is fun. But if you want to switch that up, you can certainly make it more focussed on magic items. You just need to adjust encounters for they could become insanely easy (I handed out magic items at the start of my CoS campaign, and the items have saved their butts twice already). To me, it is a nice tool to make epic encounters actually survivable. But I tell the players that fleeing is always an option. You may be heroes, but you are hopefully not dumb enough to die in the line of fire.

[stoutstien]

It isn't. The magic item system is a supplement to the game. The PC's are the focus, not the items. (This isn't Diablo III).

There have been a variety of points made for this edition that one can play it from level 1-20 with no magic items, though that will make some battles a real PITA for martial characters as we go up in levels and the bags of HP / Monsters are immune and resistant to non magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing attacks.

Magic items are neat. They are part of the fun.
(Immovable Rod cheese, front and center!)
But they don't need fixing.

I mostly agree though some of the item rarity seems random with little basic of the actual power of the item.

As far as crafting consumables I feel they need to be keep slightly on the other side of efficiency to keep them from overshadowing normal casting but kept as an option for those who want to take the time.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mostly agree though some of the item rarity seems random with little basic of the actual power of the item. yes, the rarity power is a little uneven, but it mostly works. (Broom of flying, I am looking at you!)

[Segev]

It's less that it's "bad" in 5e, and more that it is, as others have said, optional. It is also very much designed to discourage PCs making their own. The simplified system is super expensive precisely because magic items aren't meant to be easy to get except through the semi-random, DM-approved drops in treasure, and are seen in 5e as a straight-up boost to power over the baseline of a magic-item-less campaign.

On the good side of things, this design paradigm has led to a lot more items having fun effects rather than being locked into "will this be balanced? Will they have the bonuses they need?" considerations that made wealth-by-level a pretty-well-required game mechanic in 3e. (In effect, gp were a disguised form of character build points.) On the bad side of things, this means that magic items that are consumables are almost always better off sold than used, unless they're scrolls, and they are also never really something you can "stock up" on due to the price being so ludicrously high. (Healing Kits make up for this a bit by being practically potions in some ways, especially with the right feat.)

[Lupine]

On the bad side of things, this means that magic items that are consumables are almost always better off sold than used, unless they're scrolls, and they are also never really something you can "stock up" on due to the price being so ludicrously high. (Healing Kits make up for this a bit by being practically potions in some ways, especially with the right feat.)

See, that's exactly what I am talking about. I feel like those should be more common and cheaper than they are. As I said, lesser restoration is basically D&D antibiotics. It seems like everyone should have at least one scroll in their household.

yet that would be far too expensive for a commoner. I'll freely admit that some scrolls should be expensive, (perhaps exponentially so) when they get to higher level spells.

I guess I'm saying that I really don't like the magic system for consumables, and am asking if anyone agrees and has any fixes

[Segev]

I guess I'm saying that I really don't like the magic system for consumables, and am asking if anyone agrees and has any fixes

Just stealing the pricing for potions and scrolls from 3e might do it.

[DrLoveMonkey]

See, that's exactly what I am talking about. I feel like those should be more common and cheaper than they are. As I said, lesser restoration is basically D&D antibiotics. It seems like everyone should have at least one scroll in their household.

Well, be fair to lesser restoration, it’s a lot better than antibiotics, it’s a miracle. In a single action it can heal the plague, cure blindness, or purge venom from your system.

Magic items are supposed to be a lot more wonderous this edition, although i do think we could do with an equipment book full of minor magic items and useful devices. Right now there’s a bit of a gap between having nothing to help, or having an awesome magic item.

[Lupine]

Well, be fair to lesser restoration, it’s a lot better than antibiotics, it’s a miracle. In a single action it can heal the plague, cure blindness, or purge venom from your system.
Do you think for an instant that if we had access to a literal cure-all with no side effects that it wouldn't be in every single home? (Hint, we've already seen this with penicillin. After its invention, it was EVERYWHERE. only those allergic didn't have it.)


Magic items are supposed to be a lot more wonderous this edition, although i do think we could do with an equipment book full of minor magic items and useful devices. Right now there’s a bit of a gap between having nothing to help, or having an awesome magic item.

Another point that I think is completely accurate. Similarly, if people had access to magic for enchantment, do you think that there wouldn't be dime-a-dozen magic doodads? (Like the fire snap things you can buy 50 of for a dollar)

I'd certainly agree that the current system for magic items of decent power is good enough, though.

[Pex]

Why is the magic item system bad in 5e?



I wouldn't call the magic items themselves bad. They're fun to use and fit well in 5E. For everything else, in my opinion it's an overreaction to people yelling about magic items in previous editions, especially 3E. In 3E it is very easy and expected to get lots of magic items. Players can create their own. All it takes is a feat and have at it. For 5E they no longer wanted players to create their own magic items, but they couldn't outright say that so they created a system that techically says PCs can make them, but you really can't because you'll never have enough goldpieces and most especially won't have the gameworld time available because of Campaign Plot. That's 5E's fault.

PCs in 5E are made in such a way that you don't need any one particular magic item to be competent at what you do throughout the campaign game play. That is a good thing. You should be good at what you do based on decisions you made, not equipment you may or may not find. 5E does have magic items. 5E magic items are fun to use and useful. Some magic items help with combat. PCs are supposed to get magic items. However, some DMs take the fact that PCs don't need magic items as an excuse to never give magic items at all. If they do give a magic item it's a one time use. 5E does not fall apart when a PC has a magic item. 5E does not fall apart when a PC has more than one permanent/continuous use magic item. 5E does not fall apart when a PC has a permanent/continuous use magic item that helps in combat. If you're in a game and never have a magic item, that's the DM's fault, not 5E.

[DrLoveMonkey]

Do you think for an instant that if we had access to a literal cure-all with no side effects that it wouldn't be in every single home? (Hint, we've already seen this with penicillin. After its invention, it was EVERYWHERE. only those allergic didn't have it.)

Yes, but that’s exactly why it should be rare. Unless you’re making a DnD world where nobody ever gets sick, and nobody is blind or deaf, which has really far reaching implications and takes a bit of the wind out of the sails of clerics. They’re supposed to be the kind of people that walk into town, and straight up Jesus a child dying of tuberculosis back to full health but with lesser resto cures stocked up in everyone’s homes that kid gets cured as soon as he has more than a sniffle.

[Sorinth]

Do you think for an instant that if we had access to a literal cure-all with no side effects that it wouldn't be in every single home? (Hint, we've already seen this with penicillin. After its invention, it was EVERYWHERE. only those allergic didn't have it.)



Another point that I think is completely accurate. Similarly, if people had access to magic for enchantment, do you think that there wouldn't be dime-a-dozen magic doodads? (Like the fire snap things you can buy 50 of for a dollar)

I'd certainly agree that the current system for magic items of decent power is good enough, though.

Things like Penicillin could become widespread because once it was discovered pretty much anyone with a bit of training could start extracting it. For magic items only a select few can craft them. Also there are plenty of drugs/medicine that were highly effective but cost a ton and therefore aren't as widespread as they could/should be.

In 5e the economics of magic items is driven mostly by the time it takes to create a magic item. If something takes a highly skilled person a long time to create it's going to cost a lot of money. You aren't paying for the value of the magic item, you are paying for the time of the high level character. If you need a level 15 wizard to craft an item, then he's going to charge you a ton of money simply because it wouldn't be worth his time to do it cheaper.

Put another way if some random NPC asked your PC to spend a few months making him a magic item, how much would you charge? I'm sure you would want a ton of money to take that time off from adventuring.


So if someone wants to make magic items more prevalent all they need to do is reduce the time it takes to craft the item. You can keep the rate of gold per day of work the same.

[Jophiel]

You need to be a class with Lesser Restoration on your spell list before you can use a Lesser Restoration scroll which makes it pretty pointless to keep in most bathroom medicine cabinets.

[MaxWilson]

And it really got me thinking. Why is the magic item system bad in 5e? (Just a note, I'm 5e born and raised)

A side note to that, how would you fix it, if it needs fixing?

I wouldn't actually change anything about the magic items themselves or their frequency of appearance, just their metadata, to wit:

The labelling system is wildly inconsistent and doesn't match well with actual item frequency as rolled on the treasure tables. E.g. if you go through the actual DMG tables, you'll find that there are two tiers of Uncommon items, some of them much more common than the others. I'm AFB so I can't give examples right now, but a Rare potion is actually a lot more common (by DMG tables) than a Rare weapon, and this causes needless confusion and interacts poorly with rules for buying/selling/making magic items. Why shouldn't Rare actually mean rare? Xanathar's openly admits this fact by dividing each rarity into Major and Minor items for that rarity, but I have no idea why they smashed both Major and Minor together into one rarity in the first place.

So, if I were going to fix it, I would:

(1) Change the labels from Common/Uncommon/Rare/Very Rare/Legendary to Minor (with subclasses Common/Uncommon/Unusual) and Major (with subclasses Rare/Very Rare/Extraordinary/Legendary).

(2) Rewrite the magic item crafting rules accordingly, bringing down the cost of Rare (because Rare is the new Uncommon for Major items like magic weapons).

(3) Relabel all of the magic items with their new rarity, rebalancing where necessary. Potions and consumables are almost all Minor except for 9th level spell scrolls which are Rare. Broom of Flying goes up to Rare, Universal Solvent goes down from Legendary to Unusual, etc.

[sithlordnergal]

I'd say its less that the magic system itself is bad, and more that 5e's design is both low magic, and designed against the PCs doing things outside of adventuring. Don't get me wrong, you can craft things in 5e...but crafting even the most mundane gear will almost always be less efficient then going out and adventuring to buy it. They made 5e focus on PCs being "adventurers", rather then having them focus on being craftsmen or merchants. That isn't to say you can't...but take a look at what it takes to craft just a mundane item:

In order to craft an item you need the proper tool proficiency, and you divide the price of the item by 50 gold to figure out how many weeks it takes to craft it. Multiple people can work on an item to make it go faster, but they need the right tool proficiencies to do so. While this doesn't seem so bad at first, such as with items like studded leather that only cost 45 gold, most items cost far more.

For example, Chain Mail costs 75 gold, meaning it would take a character about one and a half weeks to craft. Splint takes about 4 weeks, Half Plate takes 15 weeks, and Full Plate takes a grand total of 30 weeks of in game time to craft. That's 2.5 years of in game time spent on crafting one set of armor that could probably be purchased after a difficult dungeon delve. And don't forget, you still have to pay part of that cost in gold for the materials. I'm AFB at the moment, so I can't remember the exact amount it costs, but either way you're better off buying it.


And that's just the mundane gear. Stuff that most general stores, armor shops, ect. sell. The magic items are even harder to craft. And how about making gold? If you look at Downtime activities, you can work a job...but most give a terrible amount of money.

The magic items themselves though are actually pretty powerful. Thanks to PCs being unable to realistically make them, they tend to be relatively stronger in this edition then previous ones. While I do feel there are some misplaced rarities, like Frost Brands being Very Rare while Flame Tongues are just Rare...despite the Flame Tongue being stronger in my opinion, they are still pretty darn good.


EDIT: If I were to fix it, I'd throw out the crafting rules entirely, and make things far easier to craft. Looking up what actual IRL blacksmiths say, there seems to be a general consensus that the best plate armor would take about two to three months to forge. If we were to translate that into DnD terms, that's about 13 weeks. Divide that by the 1,500 cost of plate, and you're looking at about 115.38 gp worth of work being done per week. Which does seem a lot more reasonable then the 2.5 years it normally takes in DnD time

[Segev]

D&D has always been designed around adventuring for your loot. Crafting, army-building, etc. are side-games at best, even back in 1e when the "build your keep and get minions" thing was a class feature. The reason players look to crafting, however, is for customization. "I want this specific magic item," they say. A DM would be well-advised to come up with a way to buy or quest for it, but some DM's are bad at this. Questing for an item can take a lot of time, too, and distract from the main quest line that everyone else is interested in. So crafting during downtime is a way to turn otherwise-useless gp into desired magic items.

3e's item crafting system had its flaws, but it was actually a pretty solid and reasonably well-balanced subsystem.

5e's item crafting system is basically a way of saying "don't do it."

But the need, the desire, for the ability to get That Specific Item you need for your concept remains.

[opaopajr]

The charts, tables, and values are an example for WotC's assumed greatest audience utility. They are not the only way to structure or value said topic. :smallsmile: As for changing it, move the decimal place over in a few areas you want to change and see if you like how it plays out for your campaigns.

[Tanarii]

Personally if I were to make a change, it would be to make magic less accessible as a spell. Weaken the spell casting classes, or slow their advancement, so getting powerful magic as a character feature was more difficult.

But that's not the game most people want.


I wouldn't call the magic items themselves bad. They're fun to use and fit well in 5E. For everything else, in my opinion it's an overreaction to people yelling about magic items in previous editions, especially 3E. In 3E it is very easy and expected to get lots of magic items. Players can create their own. All it takes is a feat and have at it. For 5E they no longer wanted players to create their own magic items, but they couldn't outright say that so they created a system that techically says PCs can make them, but you really can't because you'll never have enough goldpieces and most especially won't have the gameworld time available because of Campaign Plot. That's 5E's fault.
Actually what they did is take it completely out of the players hand, and tell the DM how magic items work are under their control. Then suggest one method that makes them something you will almost always try to find, not create, while still allowing PCs to create that one item they absolutely MUST have. But if a DM doesn't want them to be possible to create or buy, and priceless so there is no one to sell to, they just say that. If the DM wants magic items to be simple to create and easy to buy, but easy to sell (for low value), they eliminate the formula and quest requirements and cut the costs by whatever they feel is fair.

That's 5e's strength.

[KorvinStarmast]

D&D has always been designed around adventuring for your loot. Crafting, army-building, etc. are side-games at best, even back in 1e when the "build your keep and get minions" thing was a class feature. In OD&D, it was a goal. (But that also depended on the table. Some tables were all dungeon crawl, all the time).

The reason players look to crafting, however, is for customization. "I want this specific magic item," they say. A DM would be well-advised to come up with a way to buy or quest for it, but some DM's are bad at this.
Some DM's don't want to run a computer video game at their table.

Questing for an item can take a lot of time, too, and distract from the main quest line that everyone else is interested in. If it even exists in the DM's campaign world.

So crafting during downtime is a way to turn otherwise-useless gp into desired magic items. Indeed, if you aren't saving up to build a strong hold, putting that GP to use is called for. So far, in my brother's world, we have to find and buy those consumable gems for various spells. That's what gold is for, so far, as well as for paying a weregild when a couple of our players went a little "murder hobo" on the local gendarmes.

5e's item crafting system is basically a way of saying "don't do it."
No, it isn't, your broad brush really doesn't work.
In some campaigns, there is not enough down time.
In others, there will be.

But the need, the desire, for the ability to get That Specific Item you need for your concept remains. I'd suggest not treating the DMG as a shopping list. The point of D&D 5e is the characters, not the items. The items are "nice to have" not "must have."

Each table is a different instance of D&D. Some will lean on items a bit more heavily, and others will not.

[Segev]

The funny thing is, that post is written like it’s arguing with me or refuting my points, but it was at worst orthogonal to what I was saying (without actually disagreeing) and often agreeing with me while using a “but you’re wrong” tone. >_>;

“Crackers can be difficult to make.”
“Not true! Some people won’t have the skill, others will.”
“...and cheese and crackers are popular together.”
“No, no, we quite like cheese and crackers at our table!”

It is possible that the magic item system will get used. It is also frequently true that that kind of downtime just isn’t available. I’ve literally never been in a game with more than a month of downtime. And that was ridiculously rare.

And one needn’t treat the DMG like a shopping list to have “that one item” that is perfect for your concept. I had a character once who I really wanted to casually fly around for mental image reasons more than the (obviously beneficial) mechanical advantages, and the broom of flying was the only practical way to do it.

[KorvinStarmast]

The funny thing is, that post is written like it’s arguing with me or refuting my points, but it was at worst orthogonal to what I was saying (without actually disagreeing) and often agreeing with me while using a “but you’re wrong” tone. >_>; I am glad we agree on something, whatever that was.

As I read your post, and its tone, it seemed to me that you were painting with a very broad brush in re "I want this item" as though it's an entitlement. (So I may have not quite received your tone as you intended it).

I guess that my larger point is that under this particular edition's assumptions, items, and for that matter the very existence of any of the items in the DMG, are under the purview of the DM. For example, in the game world where you play, the broom of flying may not even exist. Or one may exist. Or the DM may roll one up as a random treasure. (Or the only one that ever exists is one your character crafts if the DM provides for a forumla to be found as a form of treasure, or something you buy from an old sage). Roughly stated, if your character wants one for "reasons" they may never be happy if one doesn't exist in the first place.

I’ve literally never been in a game with more than a month of downtime. And that was ridiculously rare. I have only been in one where our campaign had a break that lasted that long. (FWIW, AL allows one to accrue down time to expend on "stuff" as a resource). Most of what we "crafted" were healing potions and some holy water. And my brother's wizard wrote a few scrolls.

[Lupine]

I guess that my larger point is that under this particular edition's assumptions, items, and for that matter the very existence of any of the items in the DMG, are under the purview of the DM.

Then, how do you do magic items when you DM? Do you make consumables cheaper?

[KorvinStarmast]

Then, how do you do magic items when you DM? Do you make consumables cheaper? No, I do not.
I do a mix of "placed" magic items and rolling on tables.

For the group I started in Salt Marsh, they each started with a common item from Xanathar's as something a mentor or family member had given them as they headed off into the world.

At least, for certain spells. Combat spells I have an easy time getting around their rarity, but a scroll of cure wounds, or lesser restoration seems like it should be a household thing, like band-aids. Nope: at least, that's not how I see magic at work in the world. We seem to have a slightly different baseline assumption on how common magic is.

What you suggest seems to be very much an Eberron or higher magic world approach.

For "around the house healing" a 25 -50 GP healing potion would be most of the disposable income of an average household, for a year. A second level spell on a scroll is very valuable.

Most healing is mundane, or one goes to the village/town healer for stuff that a bandage and a splint can't take care of.

[Lupine]

We seem to have a slightly different baseline assumption on how common magic is.

What you suggest seems to be very much an Eberron or higher magic world approach.

For "around the house healing" a 25 -50 GP healing potion would be most of the disposable income of an average household, for a year. A second level spell on a scroll is very valuable.

Most healing is mundane, or one goes to the village/town healer for stuff that a bandage and a splint can't take care of.

That tends to be how I would approach it, but I've certainly felt that the players should have more consumable resources.

[Segev]

To be fair, my party in the Tomb of Annihilation game I'm running has gotten very few healing potions, and used them equally rarely, and has never suffered for it. In fact, the wood elf apothecary wizard with the Healer feat doesn't too often have to even use his healing kit to restore hp. He does, but he doesn't need to: they've never had a problem with just the short rest HD rolls to achieve restoration combined with the long rest full-heal.

Magic items largely are not required.

The magic item crafting system in the DMG is, however, basically a way to say, "Don't make your own items," without saying it. Yes, you CAN, but it's going to be a major undertaking and require party and DM buy-in to arrange the down-time. It's slightly superior than side-questing for specific items iff the off-screen downtime is superior than on-screen distraction from the main quest (if there is one).

Xanathar's Guide has more approachable rules, but still is pretty much on the side of "don't do it without your DM actively supporting you." I think the rules changes there are more to help DMs who want to allow it have something more realistic to work with in their games so they minimize disruption.

[Imbalance]

This may be a separate topic, but I wonder if there would be merit in a player juggling multiple characters in a campaign in order to get their crafting jollies. I'm thinking of it as a guild hall...does Adventure League do this? So, one player would have their own stable of characters in a guild to choose from for a given adventure, each having to do what adventurers do to level up, etc., and the rewards of their successes being shared among them to some extent. Thus, eventually your fighter can afford to hire your artificer to manufacture some enchanted sword, scroll, potion, whatever as down time while you take your fighter out fightering. Or, maybe the players hire each other's characters for down time tasks? Just spitballing.

[Lupine]

snip

That's a good point. I am generally against players having multiple characters, but I don't see any reason a player couldn't recruit a small army of crafters to turn out items for them. I would be expensive, sure, but when they're not making items, you can have them scribe quick things, an sell them.

[Anachronity]

(Just a note, I'm 5e born and raised)

You might try 3.5 or Pathfinder. They're much closer to what you describe. Magic items are so common that they're a baseline assumption the devs made when statting out monsters. In that game it would absolutely be likely for well-to-do households to have a single Remove Disease potion stashed away somewhere safe just in case. One of the reasons these items are so expensive is that they must be made manually by important people with a very deep understanding of magic (5th level casters are not common); there's no assumption of the magic equivalent of the industrial revolution having occurred to make mass production of potions and the like easier.

And when it comes to adventuring, why, you'd need to be stupid not to have magically enhanced strength what with all the gold you have at your disposal. Not being inhumanly strong is taking a needless risk. But there's a weird alternate side to it. It limits the sorts of stories you're able to tell. In one game we'd wanted to play a plucky group of well-intentioned bandits just trying to get by. But the game system makes the strong assumption that characters of our level (3rd, because 1st-level sucks in those systems) have obnoxious amounts of wealth just laying around.

If you want, you can take it a step further in your own campaign. The magic-industrial revolution did happen. Gauntlets of Strength and magical swords (if they even still use swords at this point!) are standard issue for rank-and-file soldiers just like the real life military hands out body armor and guns. Polymorph potions are used like grenades, with different forms for gaining an advantage in different unusual but not infrequent tactical situations. The monsters of the world have largely been scoured away by the inexorable progress of human(oid) kind.

It's not the default assumption, but a setting like this can totally work in D&D, even in 5th edition if you're so inclined.



But in default 5th edition they really wanted to dial up the rarity and 'special-ness' of magical items. Only the most basic effects are available at an easily-afforded price. This means that magic items are not a baseline assumption of the game (even though having a magic weapon of some sort by around 6th level is semi-mandatory for weapon-users just for the purpose of overcoming monster resistances. There are various arguments about that in particular). They are something special and out of the ordinary that should receive narrative attention and not be taken for granted.

Some people like that approach, myself included. Some people don't. But it's unfair to say that 5e's magic system is 'bad' because it doesn't default to working how you in particular want it to.

[LordEntrails]

Eh.

I don't allow PCs to craft magic items. I rarely allow them to buy anything more than a common item, and then at a price much higher than the PHB (except for Healing potions). Magic Items are special and rare. They are notable and valuable. The reason PCs can't sell their excess items for a huge profit is simple, their isn't a market for them because they are some of the few people in the world who can use and afford such.

Why am I Mr. Scrooge McMagic? Simple, I've played every edition of D&D and one of the biggest problems with 3.5 was players getting involved in creating and selling magical items. When players are more worried about how much gold they can make, when they spend tons of times thinking up how to craft some magical item that will min/max some ability, then the game loses something. (Sure, it gains something too, but the loss is, imo, much bigger than the gain).

Sure, everyone can play the game they want, and it's easy enough to allow magic item creation and magic item shops and such. But if it's put in the official game then it ruins the game for almost everyone. It becomes pervasive and intrusive once it's "official".

[MrStabby]

To me the magic item system is an important DM tool to help balance the different characters and ensure that everyone can have fun.

Fighter falling behind the wizard and bard? Hand out some winged sandals or a weapon that can cast light or something similar.

Wizards suffering from all the enemy fireballs and other AOE? Throw a belt that boosts HP at the party.



Upping the magic level can trigger an arms race if you get it wrong though.

[KorvinStarmast]

To be fair, my party in the Tomb of Annihilation game I'm running ... He does, but he doesn't need to: they've never had a problem with just the short rest HD rolls to achieve restoration combined with the long rest full-heal. Yay, good DM, uses Short Rests. *applause*

Magic Items are special and rare. They are notable and valuable. The reason PCs can't sell their excess items for a huge profit is simple, their isn't a market for them because they are some of the few people in the world who can use and afford such. That's how all of our groups, bar one, have approached it. One group was a high magic game.

When players are more worried about how much gold they can make, when they spend tons of times thinking up how to craft some magical item that will min/max some ability, then the game loses something. (Sure, it gains something too, but the loss is, imo, much bigger than the gain). IMO, WBL was one of the worst things to have in D&D. But that's a matter of taste.

But if it's put in the official game then it ruins the game for almost everyone. It becomes pervasive and intrusive once it's "official". Nailed that dive.
To me the magic item system is an important DM tool to help balance the different characters and ensure that everyone can have fun. Upping the magic level can trigger an arms race if you get it wrong though. Seen it since Original D&D. Some campaigns were Monty Haul, and some were more gritty. A lot of PCs were not portable to other dungeons due to give away DM's ... sorry, I am getting side tracked here.

When we go back to original D&D and the crafting magic items in that game, there was a chance for failure, and it was not uncommon that the DM would come up with "to make this, you need (for example) a hair from a manticore's mane as part of the stuff you need for those boots of flying ... "

AD&D 1e took that a lot of steps further, but it also left a lot to the DM's discretion/feel.

FWIW, the original crafting" rules, such as they were, are here in total from Men and Magic on pages 6 and 7. This is the entirety of guidance on the matter.

Wizards {11th level magic users} and above may manufacture for their own use (or for sale) such items as potions, scrolls, and just about anything else magical. Costs are commensurate with the value of the item, as is the amount of game time required to enchant it.

Examples of costs are:
Item/ Cost
Scroll of Spells / 100 Gold Pieces/Spell/Spell Level/Week (a 5th level spell would require 500 GP and 5 weeks.)

Potion of Healing / 250 Gold Pieces + 1 week
Potion of Giant Strength / 1,000 Gold Pieces + 4 weeks
Enchanting 20 Arrows / 1,000 Gold Pieces + 4 weeks
Enchanting Armor to +1 / 2,000 Gold Pieces + 2 months
Wand of Cold / 10,000 Gold Pieces + 6 months
X-Ray Vision Ring / 50,000 Gold Pieces + 1 year In the original game, which was in a lot of cases very much a campaign, those times were not burdensome. It was not uncommon in our games that a week or three would pass between "raids" or "adventures" depending on how the DM's game world was set up, of if some of the characters wandered off to explore another DM's dungeon for a while ... (Granted some were pure dungeon crawls and one just had to go and find magic items...)

[Segev]

Yay, good DM, uses Short Rests. *applause*

Heh. Mostly, my players decide they're going to. I'm not going to roll up extra random encounters just because they're resting. If they've subdued whatever made them feel the need for it, and there's nothing realistically around to trigger another encounter, it's really their choice. They generally take pains to secure the area when they do take a short rest.

Right now, they're trying to do so in the middle of Hrakhamar, having fought and defeated roughly half the hostile inhabitants...unfortunatley, the others know they're there, and don't want to let them hole up. But, they've secured a door and a hall entrance to cut off access, so they're going to be able to at least let some of them get a rest in while others hold off attempts to break in. It'll be interesting to see if they pull it off.

Of course, the Warlock NPCs will also get a short rest, in that case....

[ad_hoc]

So, in discussing spell versitlity, I came across this quote:


And it really got me thinking. Why is the magic item system bad in 5e? (Just a note, I'm 5e born and raised)

A side note to that, how would you fix it, if it needs fixing?

I know that I've been caught off guard by the categorization of certain items (such as potions and scrolls), because they just don't seem like they should be that rare (At least, for certain spells. Combat spells I have an easy time getting around their rarity, but a scroll of cure wounds, or lesser restoration seems like it should be a household thing, like band-aids.). That said, I have no idea how to fix that.

There are no magic item shops in 5e.

Buying magic items is a variant. Pick the one you want or make up your own.

I highly dislike the idea of magic item shops where players can pick and choose the items. That abundance of magic items diminishes their impact and wonder. That said, I do like the idea of spending downtime having a chance to buy a random one.

I don't like the prices in Xanathar's so I've come up with my own.

Consumables are 1/10th rather than 1/2th the price. Rarity goes up x2/x5 but has a much higher floor than what is presented in XgtE.

Magic Item Values:

Consumable: Buy/Sell

Uncommon 1d6x100gp / 200gp
Rare 1d6x200gp / 400gp
Very Rare 1d6x500gp / 1000gp
Legendary Unknown

Permanent: Buy/Sell

Uncommon 1d6x1000gp / 2000gp
Rare 1d6x2000gp / 4000gp
Very Rare 1d6x5000gp / 10000gp
Legendary Unknown

[JackPhoenix]

There are no magic item shops in 5e.

Buying magic items is a variant. Pick the one you want or make up your own.

I highly dislike the idea of magic item shops where players can pick and choose the items. That abundance of magic items diminishes their impact and wonder. That said, I do like the idea of spending downtime having a chance to buy a random one.

Oh, I do like the idea of magic item shops, but most items they have are the cheap kind of potions and scrolls (i.e. common and uncommon), some common non-consumable items, material components for spellcasting (the pouch doesn't fill itself, after all), other non-magic items spellcasters may find useful (foci, spellbooks, the inks required to scribe spells into them, fancy or not-so-fancy writting implements, props to look suitably mystical), some non-magic trinkets for superstitious commoners and other fools, and the occasional uncommon item. The owner may give you advice where to find some more powerful stuff, though, for the right price, of course....

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, I do like the idea of magic item shops, but most items they have are the cheap kind of potions and scrolls (i.e. common and uncommon), some common non-consumable items, material components for spellcasting (the pouch doesn't fill itself, after all), other non-magic items spellcasters may find useful (foci, spellbooks, the inks required to scribe spells into them, fancy or not-so-fancy writting implements, props to look suitably mystical), some non-magic trinkets for superstitious commoners and other fools, and the occasional uncommon item. The owner may give you advice where to find some more powerful stuff, though, for the right price, of course.... That uncommon item will of course have a very high mark up because of ... profit! :smallbiggrin: (And really, the whole "i know a guy" deal is what this edition seems to point towards in the DMG. And I like that a lot. It makes the seeking of a magic item a part of the adventure ... and I will say that the 5e Salt Marsh Magic item vendor makes me grind my teeth wish they had not done that. But they want to appeal to DMs with high, medium and low magic settings. I get that.

[Talionis]

5th edition is designed to be much harder to break 3rd edition was made broken. Some people really liked broken. I miss 3rd edition in many ways. Ie Rogues that we’re almost spell casters they had so many magic items.

Each table should find happy mediums and from my point of view WotC should put out a optional crafting guide and optional higher magic campaign rules so that tables that choose to embrace a more 3rd edition like game could. I dislike massive house rules and prefer that WotC play umpire.

[KorvinStarmast]

I dislike massive house rules and prefer that WotC play umpire. Then I'd suggest that you play Adventurers League games, where WoTC is closest to an umpire, in terms of the rules style adapted for that mode of play.

They are explicitly trying to get away from the Umpire / "rules over play style" model, so I think you may be wishing for something directly opposed to the core design principles for this edition.

[Tanarii]

I dislike massive house rules and prefer that WotC play umpire.
You're going to fighting an uphill battle to get a 6e you like then. Because WoTC listened to the players when making 5e, and it turns out they dislike WotC playing umpire, and prefer DM flexibility and rulings over had coded and extensive rules.

Just as 2e and 3e were each (initially) a design triumph for revising a mish-mash of complicated and multi-sub-system rules of the previous edition into a simple and/or unified system. 5e is a design triumph for doing that all over again. But also for introducing a design principle that would limit it from happening all over again throughout the lifespan of the edition.

[RatElemental]

Oh, I do like the idea of magic item shops, but most items they have are the cheap kind of potions and scrolls (i.e. common and uncommon), some common non-consumable items, material components for spellcasting (the pouch doesn't fill itself, after all), other non-magic items spellcasters may find useful (foci, spellbooks, the inks required to scribe spells into them, fancy or not-so-fancy writting implements, props to look suitably mystical), some non-magic trinkets for superstitious commoners and other fools, and the occasional uncommon item. The owner may give you advice where to find some more powerful stuff, though, for the right price, of course....

This actually reminds me of a "magic" shop I had in a 3.5 game I ran once. The proprietor knew next to nothing about magic and most of the wands were either expended or were never magical in the first place. Same for pretty much everything else they sold, but there were a few hidden gems someone with the right skills could pick out. She pretty much existed because the player wanted to sell a wolf skeleton they had, for some reason, taken as loot.

I could see something similar working in 5e, if it were a traveling salesman.

[opaopajr]

Eh, it is not hard to introduce in a fictional setting a separate elitist modal for exchange in rarities. The art world has been doing this since the beginning of history. Be it pharoah god-kings and their civic works, Renaissance and commissioned pieces, to today's established galleries trading (or lending) provenanced art, the trade still happens... :smallcool:

The GM question is how much of that they want to be player-facing. :smallwink:

WotC's reflection on its largest customer base is more like, "If I want to run a small spelunking quest in the fantasy equivalent of Podunk, Pennsyltucky, USA, I don't need elaborate sub-systems showing how to run a believable Southerby's auction or the arts' criminal underworld."

And neither should it be a priority. :smallsmile: And nor should one expect its cobbled together sub-system to hold for all such expectations, scales, or scopes. There is no perfect out there, sometimes you gotta DIY, and there's few hobbies as easy out there to do so than this. :smalltongue:

The big question is: have you, the GM, articulated your campaign's expectations, scales, and scopes enough that you can DIY? :smallsmile: Those parameters will help you re-adjust already made patterns to your table's needs.