Wild Surge Table Gripes

[Yunru]

So you're playing a Wild Sorcerer. You've done everything you can to ensure you get to roll surges; you sweet talked the DM into letting you use Spell Points, you've convinced them to roll for a surge on every levelled spell, you're only casting 1st level spells.

Level 1: 9.75%
Level 2: 18.55%
Level 3: 33.66%
Level 4: 40.13%
Level 5: 53.67%
Level 6: 62.26%
Level 7: 67.65%
Level 8: 73.65%
Level 9: 80.63%
Level 10: 85.01%
Level 11: 87.79%
Level 12: 88.40%
Level 13: 91.03%
Level 14: 91.47%
Level 15: 93.73%
Level 16: 94.05%
Level 17: 95.62%
Level 18: 96.61%
Level 19: 97.24%
Level 20: 97.97%

What's your reward for all this focus?
You get to roll on a table, the outcome of which can mostly be divided into the following categories:
Actively malicious - 12% (31-32, 41-42, 49-50, 61-62, 67-68, 77-78)
Negative, but exploitable* - 10% (07-08, 13-14, 19-20, 57-58, 95-96)
Do nothing - 20% (05-06, 11-12, 17-18, 23-24, 35-36, 37-38, 47-48, 55-56, 79-80, 97-98)
Neutral - 8% (63-64, 73-74, 83-84, 87-88)
Beneficial, with drawback* - 8% (65-66, 69-70, 89-90, 93-94)
Entirely Beneficial (N.B. Can be weak or strong) - 36% (03-04, 09-10, 15-16, 21-22, 25-26, 29-30, 33-34, 39-40, 43-44, 45-46, 51-52, 53-54, 59-60, 71-72, 81-82, 85-86, 91-92, 99-00)

There's also a 2% chance for all your spells to go wild for the next minute, and a 2% chance for all your spells to be Quickened for the next minute (which would be entirely beneficial if it weren't non-optional).

Then there's numbers 75-76. Oh 75-76. If ever there was proof that proper care and attention wasn't given to the table, it's 75-76.
"You glow with bright light in a 30.foot radius for the next minute. Any creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of you is blinded until the end of its next turn."
It sounds like it's an exploitable negative, or a benefit with a drawback, which I feel it is as intended. But as written, you are a creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of you, so you're also Blinded at the end of each of your turns for the next minute.

Oh, also 10% of the outcomes cause you to lose concentration on any spells you had (13-14, 45-46, 63-64, 77-78, 87-88), so have fun with that too.

[Darkstar952]

First thing I did with that subclass was throw that god damned table of garbage in the bin. I instead created a series of new mini tables one for each spell level (except cantrips), rolling the top or bottom of the table causes an effect from the next table up or down respectively. All of the effects in the table are approximately scaled proportionally to the level of the spell cast, no more trying to cast a simple level 1 spell and accidentally setting off a fireball killing the entire tavern.

[Grey Watcher]

So you're playing a Wild Sorcerer. You've done everything you can to ensure you get to roll surges; you sweet talked the DM into letting you use Spell Points, you've convinced them to roll for a surge on every levelled spell, you're only casting 1st level spells.

Level 1: 9.75%
Level 2: 18.55%
Level 3: 33.66%
Level 4: 40.13%
Level 5: 53.67%
Level 6: 62.26%
Level 7: 67.65%
Level 8: 73.65%
Level 9: 80.63%
Level 10: 85.01%
Level 11: 87.79%
Level 12: 88.40%
Level 13: 91.03%
Level 14: 91.47%
Level 15: 93.73%
Level 16: 94.05%
Level 17: 95.62%
Level 18: 96.61%
Level 19: 97.24%
Level 20: 97.97%

What's your reward for all this focus?
You get to roll on a table, the outcome of which can mostly be divided into the following categories:
Actively malicious - 12% (31-32, 41-42, 49-50, 61-62, 67-68, 77-78)
Negative, but exploitable* - 10% (07-08, 13-14, 19-20, 57-58, 95-96)
Do nothing - 20% (05-06, 11-12, 17-18, 23-24, 35-36, 37-38, 47-48, 55-56, 79-80, 97-98)
Neutral - 8% (63-64, 73-74, 83-84, 87-88)
Beneficial, with drawback* - 8% (65-66, 69-70, 89-90, 93-94)
Entirely Beneficial (N.B. Can be weak or strong) - 36% (03-04, 09-10, 15-16, 21-22, 25-26, 29-30, 33-34, 39-40, 43-44, 45-46, 51-52, 53-54, 59-60, 71-72, 81-82, 85-86, 91-92, 99-00)

There's also a 2% chance for all your spells to go wild for the next minute, and a 2% chance for all your spells to be Quickened for the next minute (which would be entirely beneficial if it weren't non-optional).

Then there's numbers 75-76. Oh 75-76. If ever there was proof that proper care and attention wasn't given to the table, it's 75-76.
"You glow with bright light in a 30.foot radius for the next minute. Any creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of you is blinded until the end of its next turn."
It sounds like it's an exploitable negative, or a benefit with a drawback, which I feel it is as intended. But as written, you are a creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of you, so you're also Blinded at the end of each of your turns for the next minute.

Oh, also 10% of the outcomes cause you to lose concentration on any spells you had (13-14, 45-46, 63-64, 77-78, 87-88), so have fun with that too.

I'm a little unclear of the gist of your complaint. Are you saying you would rather have those odds redistributed? If so, how? Weigh the table more towards the bad results? More towards the good ones?

Also, assuming the "you glow" result works as you read it, I'd argue that it still counts as "bad, but exploitable": you can blind people for free, but you're also blinded which shuts down a lot of your spells. Yes, you're squishy, so the 5 foot radius is especially dangerous, but if you can, say, figure out how to get yourself close to an enemy caster, you've effectively neutralized each other for up to a minute.

Not really seeing the problem with "losing concentration" being something you risk in what is essentially a Gambler class. Your key class feature is potentially awesome, potentially disastrous, and this is just one disaster that can befall you.

[AHF]

We house rule that you get a wild surge when you roll equal to or under your Charisma modifier and that number increases by one for each spell that you cast that doesn't wild surge. So the odds at first level with a 16 charisma has a roughly 32% of triggering a surge each long rest while by 4th level (18 CHA) those odds (for your default 7 spells without creating new spell slots) go to just over 83%.

We also liberally apply Tides of Chaos to ensure a sorcerer gets to enjoy surges with some regularity.

Otherwise, a subclass which should be all about wild things is really, really tame as you illustrate in your OP.

[Segev]

The Wild Sorcerer is supposed to be hard to plan for. Note that 36% of purely beneficial effects is the largest portion of that table, and that 8% purely negative effects is the smallest. The 20% "do nothing" are something I'll have to read to judge, myself, but are probably the biggest sinners, to my mind, since the chance to wild surge is so low to begin with.

Do consider, though, that you can actually get the wild surge chance up by using your class feature that recharges when you wild surge: after giving yourself Advantage on that saving throw, your DM can make ANY spell you cast wild surge, not just decide to make you roll a d20 to see if it does. So you can get the odds higher, and that might justify the 20% "do nothing."

That said, the other big problem with the class is just how much of it is "if the DM says so." There's no guideline for when the DM should say so, just when he can. By phrasing it as they did, they imply the DM should assume nothing happens unless he's bored and wants to give it a whirl; I think the way it's SUPPOSED to be played, though, the DM should assume you roll the d20 or get the wild surge unless it's dramatically inappropriate.

The DM can hold back from making you roll if he feels like you need the reliability of not losing Concentration, or if he feels that the wild surge effect would undermine the tone of the scene, or if he doesn't want to deal with it because too much else is going on. He can hold back from giving you a wild surge that recharges your class feature for purposes of preventing you from "gaming" it, or to create tension (reminding you that it is sometimes a diabolus ex machina, not a deus ex machina), or simply because he thinks it'd be less interesting now than later.

Unfortunately, that's not how the wording implies things, and there's no guidance nor advice. This makes it a dangerous class to run with a novice DM.

[bendking]

I have to agree, playing one myself.
The exploitable negatives also encourage you to fights close to your enemies, which is a bad idea for any full-caster.

It simply feels like you aren't sufficiently rewarded for capitalizing on Surges (except for the advantage you get from Tides), and more importantly - you're punished too hard.

[Protolisk]

As a DM, I do away with the "DM" requirement of the class. All spells cast is a d20 roll, and Tides always causes the next spell to surge. Firstly, this means even at level 1, a sorc can surge every time he casts a spell if he wants to (just stagger your tides). With how often there are straight up good results, it makes the class feel much more viable.

Still the chance for potted plant or self Fireball, but that's what you get when you literally are the lol-random class.

[stoutstien]

You wouldn't blind yourself for the same reason thunderwave doesn't hit the user. You can't be within the range because you are the source barring DC time travel shenanigans.

Wild magic sorcerer isn't for everyone and it definitely not the strongest origin. It's the only one I will play and of there is a good chance of seeing higher tiers of play it gets quite powerful.

[Yunru]

I'm a little unclear of the gist of your complaint. Are you saying you would rather have those odds redistributed? If so, how? Weigh the table more towards the bad results? More towards the good ones?

Well first I'd axe the ones that do nothing. If you already have a low chance of not getting to roll, you shouldn't also then have a chance of the roll being meaningless.

I'd also collapse actively malicious entirely into negative, but exploitable.
(I mean, I already did as part of my Sorcerer redesign, but not sure how much it could just be carried over :p )

[AHF]

Well first I'd axe the ones that do nothing. If you already have a low chance of not getting to roll, you shouldn't also then have a chance of the roll being meaningless.

I'd also collapse actively malicious entirely into negative, but exploitable.
(I mean, I already did as part of my Sorcerer redesign, but not sure how much it could just be carried over :p )

I think the meaningless ones are fine if you significantly increase the odds of getting a surge. The biggest problem is the low odds of a surge if your DM isn't giving you the Tides of Chaos surge quickly.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You wouldn't blind yourself for the same reason thunderwave doesn't hit the user. You can't be within the range because you are the source barring DC time travel shenanigans.

Wild magic sorcerer isn't for everyone and it definitely not the strongest origin. It's the only one I will play and of there is a good chance of seeing higher tiers of play it gets quite powerful.

The rule about AOE spells and the point of origin is different between the different areas of effect (some gives you a choice, some don't).

The problem it that as far as I know this effect is not a spell.

[Grey Watcher]

Well first I'd axe the ones that do nothing. If you already have a low chance of not getting to roll, you shouldn't also then have a chance of the roll being meaningless.

I'd also collapse actively malicious entirely into negative, but exploitable.
(I mean, I already did as part of my Sorcerer redesign, but not sure how much it could just be carried over :p )

I'll agree with you that there are too many "do nothing" options on the table. One or two I can understand, but that many just starts to feel like "Why did I bother with this class again?" Heck, I'd almost rather see a whole table of "non-results." You roll for every spell, if it's a surge, you consult the "real" table (ie the one with Fireball Self or Compulsory Automatic Quicken Spell). If it's not a surge, you consult the "purely cosmetic effects" table (you turn blue or grow a few inches taller).

One houserule I saw to increase the number of surges, at least as you rise in level is that you A) roll for a surge on every non-cantrip and B) you get a surge if the result is less than or equal to the spell (slot?) used. So with first level spells you have the standard 5% (natural 1 only) chance, but if you bust out your 9th level spell you're clocking it at a 45% chance of a surge (9 or lower).

[Segev]

I'll agree with you that there are too many "do nothing" options on the table. One or two I can understand, but that many just starts to feel like "Why did I bother with this class again?" Heck, I'd almost rather see a whole table of "non-results." You roll for every spell, if it's a surge, you consult the "real" table (ie the one with Fireball Self or Compulsory Automatic Quicken Spell). If it's not a surge, you consult the "purely cosmetic effects" table (you turn blue or grow a few inches taller).

One houserule I saw to increase the number of surges, at least as you rise in level is that you A) roll for a surge on every non-cantrip and B) you get a surge if the result is less than or equal to the spell (slot?) used. So with first level spells you have the standard 5% (natural 1 only) chance, but if you bust out your 9th level spell you're clocking it at a 45% chance of a surge (9 or lower).

If you make sure the DM isn't going to be stingy with granting them - which any DM who agreed to a rules change like this would be likely to do - you don't need to house rule things. A sorcerer can guarantee a wild surge on every spell if he is aggressive with Tides.

I think the trick is to get the DM into the mindset that the default is rolling (if Tides hasn't been used)/triggering (if Tides has been used) with every non-Cantrip, and that the DM's option is to say, "No, not this time," if he has a reason why he doesn't want it happening right now. It can be any reason, but just shifting the mindset from, "I need a reason to make the sorcerer roll/automaticall make it Surge," to, "I need a reason for the sorcerer NOT to roll/NOT to automatically make it Surge," solves the frequency problem. Without house ruling or changing anything other than the DM's mindset.

And I think it's the intent, too: I think the reason it's DM-dependent at all is just to avoid it happening at times inconvenient for the game.

[stoutstien]

The rule about AOE spells and the point of origin is different between the different areas of effect (some gives you a choice, some don't).

The problem it that as far as I know this effect is not a spell.

It's the same reasoning was my point. You can't be within 5ft of yourself and be the point of origin.

[Zalabim]

There's also a 2% chance for all your spells to go wild for the next minute,
That doesn't require you to cast spells. It just happens each turn.

Oh, also 10% of the outcomes cause you to lose concentration on any spells you had (13-14, 45-46, 63-64, 77-78, 87-88), so have fun with that too.
You're missing the errata.

Wild Magic Surge (p. 103). A surge can
happen once per turn. If a surge effect is a
spell, it’s too wild to be affected by Metam-
agic. If it normally requires concentration,
it doesn’t require concentration in this
case; the spell lasts for its full duration.

Of course a few negative effects still cause loss or risk of loss of concentration.

[Yunru]

That doesn't require you to cast spells. It just happens each turn.

You're missing the errata.

Wild Magic Surge (p. 103). A surge can
happen once per turn. If a surge effect is a
spell, it’s too wild to be affected by Metam-
agic. If it normally requires concentration,
it doesn’t require concentration in this
case; the spell lasts for its full duration.

Of course a few negative effects still cause loss or risk of loss of concentration.
Hmm, that actually increases the number of entirely negative results by... 1, I think, then. I was considering it not negative because you could just drop concentration if it didn't also hit allies.

[micahaphone]

Have you looked at 2nd Edition's wild magic table? I quite like it, and it roughly seems to be a similar ratio of good bad and silly. Higher highs and lower lows.
http://worldofmor.us/rules/TM/DD04136.htm

I don't mind the 5e table, I agree with other people's homebrew to make surges happen more often / increasing the crit/surge window.

A DM should let you roll for it and/or use tides as much as possible, only restrained by certain moments of narrative importance, probably out of combat.

[sithlordnergal]

Oh, also 10% of the outcomes cause you to lose concentration on any spells you had (13-14, 45-46, 63-64, 77-78, 87-88), so have fun with that too.

One slight correction, you don't actually lose concentration on the spell. An errata added "If a Wild Magic effect is a spell, it’s too wild to be affected by Metamagic. If it normally requires concentration, it doesn’t require concentration in this case; the spell lasts for its full duration." Meaning wild Magic Sorcerer is the ONLY caster that can stack two concentration spells on each other, its just they can't end the Wild Magic Surge spell early.